Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2009
Saturated fat can reverse atherosclerosis
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Taka - 06 Jul 2009 08:09 GMT Oxidized LDL and the PUFA Connection
Let us return to the traffic analogy for a moment. Why would an "LDL traffic jam," wherein the "LDL receptor highway" is blocked contribute to atherosclerosis?
The membrane of LDL contains polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA), which are highly vulnerable to oxidation. Cells continuously make antioxidant enzymes and other antioxidant compounds to protect their membrane PUFA. If PUFA start to oxidize, the cell ramps up its antioxidant production. When the liver packs cholesterol into a VLDL particle and secretes it into the blood (where it eventually becomes an LDL particle after delivering some of its nutrients to other tissues), it puts some antioxidants into the package. The PUFA have now left the comparative safety of the liver cell and have only a limited supply of antioxidants. When those antioxidants are used up, the PUFA begin to oxidize, and their oxidation products proceed to damage other components of the lipoprotein. When the oxidation becomes severe, the oxidized LDL winds up in a foam cell in an atherosclerotic plaque.
Let's draw another analogy, this time to a jar of oil. If you use a jar of oil, you open it, exposing the PUFA within it to the oxygen in the air, but quickly put the cap back on and put it back in the fridge. What would happen if you opened the jar and let it sit on the table at room temperature? Over time, the limited amount of antioxidants in the oil would run out and the PUFA would begin to oxidize. The oil would go rancid.
Pumping LDL into the blood but letting it sit there circulating round and round exposed to oxidants rather than taking it into the shelter of the cell is like opening a jar of oil and leaving it on the table.
LDL taken from people who consume more PUFA, whether from vegetable oil or fish oil, oxidizes more easily in a test tube. Alpha- tocopherol, the major form of vitamin E, does not help.15
The specific components of the oxidized LDL particle that interact with the DNA of monocytes to transform them into macrophages and then into foam cells are oxidized derivatives of linoleic acid, a PUFA found in vegetable oils.16
A 2004 study from Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard School of Public Health showed that in postmenopausal women, the more PUFA they ate, and to a much lesser extent the more carbohydrate they ate, the worse their atherosclerosis became over time. The more saturated fat they ate, the less their atherosclerosis progressed; in the highest intake of saturated fat, the atherosclerosis reversed over time.17
I will cover the topic of saturated fat, PUFA, and heart disease in greater detail in another article on the diet-heart hypothesis. Additionally, I have written a Special Report entitled How Essential Are the Essential Fatty Acids? that provides accurate and thoroughly researched information on the true requirement for PUFA, which is negligible for healthy adults. As part of my Special Reports series, I will be publishing a second PUFA Report later this year that will cover the benefits and dangers of consuming PUFA in amounts larger than the minimum requirements.
READ MORE AT: http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Does-Cholesterol-Cause-Heart-Disease-Myth.html
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/The_Cholesterol_Times-Issue-14.html
montygraham - 06 Jul 2009 22:03 GMT LDL carries fatty acids. The more PUFAs in the LDL, the more likely it is to get oxidized, and when that happens, macrophages try to "gobble it up." At some point, the macrophages themselves get damaged, and "spill" their contents, leading to lesions in the blood vessels. Some researchers have described the buildup in vessels as a "death zone" of chronic inflammation. Also, the cells that make up the blood vessels can have AA in them, which probably makes the situation even worse, though I haven't seen a specific study addressing this specific point.
Ron Peterson - 08 Jul 2009 22:50 GMT > Oxidized LDL and the PUFA Connection J Am Coll Cardiol. 2006 Aug 15;48(4):715-20. Epub 2006 Jul 24. says: "CONCLUSIONS: Consumption of a saturated fat reduces the anti- inflammatory potential of HDL and impairs arterial endothelial function. In contrast, the anti-inflammatory activity of HDL improves after consumption of polyunsaturated fat. These findings highlight novel mechanisms by which different dietary fatty acids may influence key atherogenic processes."
-- Ron
Thomas Carter - 09 Jul 2009 04:18 GMT > > Oxidized LDL and the PUFA Connection > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > � �Ron Hi,
One of the better documented facts in medicine is that PUFAs protect against heart disease while saturated fat causes it.
The definitive paper on this issue has just been published, and I post the abstract below.
While PUFAs reduce LDL cholesterol and SFAs increase it, the robust protection by PUFAs is greater than that due to cholesterol reduction, meaning that there are other mechanisms for their benefits.
One of these might be that they are antioxidants. They intercept and secure free radicals, and when they are metabolized as food the trapped free radicals are neutralized under controlled conditions.
The failure of antioxidative interventions in the literature may well be due to the fact that no antioxidant is given in sufficient quantities, but PUFAs with each linoleic molecule containing two radical trapping moities are normaly consumed in quantities of 30 to 60 GRAMS. This aniti oxidative "supplementation" is far greater than that due to pills, which add little to the redox benefit.
There is pretty good evidence that linoleic acid is mildly carcinogenic, and it's known that cancer cells do import it avidly. Fish oil and melatonin have been reported to attenuate this importation by cancer cells.
Thomas
Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 May;89(5):1425-32. Epub 2009 Feb 11.Related Articles, Links Comment in: Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 May;89(5):1283-4.
Major types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease: a pooled analysis of 11 cohort studies.
Jakobsen MU, O'Reilly EJ, Heitmann BL, Pereira MA, B�lter K, Fraser GE, Goldbourt U, Hallmans G, Knekt P, Liu S, Pietinen P, Spiegelman D, Stevens J, Virtamo J, Willett WC, Ascherio A.
Research Unit for Dietary Studies at the Institute of Preventive Medicine, Copenhagen University Hospital, Centre for Health and Society, Copenhagen, Denmark.
BACKGROUND: Saturated fatty acid (SFA) intake increases plasma LDL- cholesterol concentrations; therefore, intake should be reduced to prevent coronary heart disease (CHD). Lower habitual intakes of SFAs, however, require substitution of other macronutrients to maintain energy balance. OBJECTIVE: We investigated associations between energy intake from monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFAs), polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs), and carbohydrates and risk of CHD while assessing the potential effect-modifying role of sex and age. Using substitution models, our aim was to clarify whether energy from unsaturated fatty acids or carbohydrates should replace energy from SFAs to prevent CHD. DESIGN: This was a follow-up study in which data from 11 American and European cohort studies were pooled. The outcome measure was incident CHD. RESULTS: During 4-10 y of follow-up, 5249 coronary events and 2155 coronary deaths occurred among 344,696 persons. For a 5% lower energy intake from SFAs and a concomitant higher energy intake from PUFAs, there was a significant inverse association between PUFAs and risk of coronary events (hazard ratio: 0.87; 95% CI: 0.77, 0.97); the hazard ratio for coronary deaths was 0.74 (95% CI: 0.61, 0.89). For a 5% lower energy intake from SFAs and a concomitant higher energy intake from carbohydrates, there was a modest significant direct association between carbohydrates and coronary events (hazard ratio: 1.07; 95% CI: 1.01, 1.14); the hazard ratio for coronary deaths was 0.96 (95% CI: 0.82, 1.13). MUFA intake was not associated with CHD. No effect modification by sex or age was found. CONCLUSION: The associations suggest that replacing SFAs with PUFAs rather than MUFAs or carbohydrates prevents CHD over a wide range of intakes.
Publication Types: Multicenter Study Research Support, N.I.H., Extramural Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
PMID: 19211817 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] PMCID: PMC2676998 [Available on 2010/05/01]
Taka - 09 Jul 2009 06:33 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > 60 GRAMS. This aniti oxidative "supplementation" is far greater than > that due to pills, which add little to the redox benefit. Have you ever heard about the lipid peroxidation chain reaction? And do you call compounds such as 4-HNE "neutralized free radicals"? Give me a break with your meta analysis of cohort studies. The Kwasniewski patients should be dropping like flies because of their "PUFA- antioxidant" deficiencies then ... So should the south Asians thriving on saturated fat from coconuts ... Instead they are all atherosclerosis free! This is where you should go doing your cohort studies, not among the AA-overloaded Americans. If the PUFAs were such miracle antioxidants why wouldn't the long lived species accumulate them?
Taka
> There is pretty good evidence that linoleic acid is mildly > carcinogenic, and it's known that cancer cells do import it avidly. [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > PMID: 19211817 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > PMCID: PMC2676998 [Available on 2010/05/01] David - 10 Jul 2009 01:12 GMT Yes Thomas, you and your peer-reviewed meta-analysis of cohort studies make Taka's brain hurt and cause him cognitive dissonance. Please stop!
Pramesh Rutaji - 10 Jul 2009 01:39 GMT >>> Oxidized LDL and the PUFA Connection >> ?J Am Coll Cardiol. 2006 Aug 15;48(4):715-20. Epub 2006 Jul 24. says: [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > cholesterol concentrations; therefore, intake should be reduced to > prevent coronary heart disease (CHD). Lowering LDL is used as a surrogate endpoint for lower CHD and has been found to not be true. The Vyrotin study using statin drugs combined with Zetia and tested by measuring the Coronary artery thickness over time (IMT) was shown to accelerate arterial plaque while lowering LDL.
Additionally, it looks like the meta study doesn't take into account trans-fats. Saturated fats, good saturated fats, raise HDL which decreases cardiovascular events by 3% for every 1 point raised.
> Lower habitual intakes of SFAs, > however, require substitution of other macronutrients to maintain [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > PMID: 19211817 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > PMCID: PMC2676998 [Available on 2010/05/01]
 Signature Pramesh Rutaji
p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply
David - 11 Jul 2009 20:10 GMT > Lowering LDL is used as a surrogate endpoint for lower CHD and has been > found to not be true. The Vyrotin study using statin drugs combined > with Zetia and tested by measuring the Coronary artery thickness over > time (IMT) was shown to accelerate arterial plaque while lowering LDL. You have no idea what you're talking about. Even if this study could be used as evidence against LDL as a causal factor in CAD, it would not refute the mountains of data accumulated over decades. This one study was performed in a group of 720 patients with familial heterozygous hypercholesterolemia, and their baseline carotid intima media thickness was very low -- therefore, it's really not surprising that a significant difference between ezetimibe and ezetimibe/ simvastatin was not seen.
Erroneously generalizing the results of a single study to the population at large, while ignoring all other research, is the hallmark of bad science and is what Taka and his ilk do best!
David - 11 Jul 2009 20:14 GMT On Jul 9, 8:39 pm, Pramesh Rutaji <p297tongue6...@newsguy.com> wrote:
The Vyrotin study using statin drugs combined
> > with Zetia and tested by measuring the Coronary artery thickness over > > time (IMT) was shown to accelerate arterial plaque while lowering LDL. By the way -- "accelerate"?? Completely false. There was no significant difference between groups (p = 0.29).
Do your homework before you start spewing this crap all over the net.
Pramesh Rutaji - 12 Jul 2009 05:22 GMT > On Jul 9, 8:39 pm, Pramesh Rutaji <p297tongue6...@newsguy.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > By the way -- "accelerate"?? Completely false. There was no > significant difference between groups (p = 0.29). So NO benefit to lowering LDL to 70 or below! Exactly. You'll also find that lowering LDL with statin drugs doesn't increase lifespan.
> Do your homework before you start spewing this crap all over the net. Calm down. Some people on the internet won't worship you. Get over yourself. Parrots of medical dogma provide no utility.
Anyone taking Vyrotin will get all the negative effects of such statin drugs including decreases in memory and cognitive function and a greater likelihood of dying of accidents or suicide from those mental deficits.
If you want to use lowering LDL to make claims that the drug must therefore be beneficial, go for it. Some of us however are actually concerned with quality of life and lifespan, not drug company profit margins and want to see real significant results in lowering of all-cause-mortality and increases in lifespan over placebo, something that hasn't occurred with statin drugs.
Saturated fats do indeed raise HDL, something that statin drugs have little effect on. Raising HDL is more protective than anything you can do with LDL except increasing particle size and lowering particle count, something statin drugs do NOT do. However, if you want to fill yourself with polyunsaturated veggie oils, go for it .. and enjoy the increase in cancer rates.
 Signature Pramesh Rutaji
p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply
David - 12 Jul 2009 12:44 GMT On Jul 12, 12:22 am, Pramesh Rutaji <p297tongue6...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Some people on the internet won't worship you. Get over > yourself. Parrots of medical dogma provide no utility. Worship me? What? Oh right -- you're trying to divert attention away from the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.
> Anyone taking Vyrotin will get all the negative effects of such statin > drugs including decreases in memory and cognitive function and a greater > likelihood of dying of accidents or suicide from those mental deficits. Ehh.......wow. That's a whole lot of interesting claims. Got any data to back up your assertion that there are increased suicides from statin users? Didn't think so.
Oh hey, look what we have here -- *decreased* depression in statin users, and no association with suicide risk:
Arch Intern Med. 2003 Sep 8;163(16):1926-32. Lipid-lowering drugs and the risk of depression and suicidal behavior. Yang CC, Jick SS, Jick H. BACKGROUND: A possible association between lipid-lowering drug therapy and psychological well-being remains an issue of debate. To provide more information, we performed a nested case-control study to evaluate the effect of lipid-lowering drugs on depression and suicidal behavior. METHODS: Within the United Kingdom General Practice Research Database, we identified all cases with newly treated depression needing a referral or hospitalization and all cases with first- recorded diagnosis of suicidal behavior between January 1, 1991, and December 31, 1999, from a study base that comprised all patients who were aged between 40 and 79 years and who had various exposures of interest. Each case was matched with up to 4 controls, randomly selected from the study base, on age, sex, medical practice, calendar time, and years since enrollment in the General Practice Research Database. RESULTS: A nested case-control analysis comprised 458 newly diagnosed cases of depression with 1830 controls, and 105 cases of suicidal behavior with 420 controls. The adjusted odds ratio of depression was 0.4 (95% confidence interval, 0.2-0.9) for current statin use, compared with hyperlipidemic nonuse. The adjusted odds ratios for other exposures were all around 1.0. None of the adjusted odds ratios for suicidal behavior were significantly different from unity. CONCLUSIONS: The use of statins and other lipid-lowering drugs is not associated with an increased risk of depression or suicide. On the contrary, individuals with current statin use may have a lower risk of developing depression, an effect that could be explained by improved quality of life due to decreased risk of cardiovascular events or more health consciousness in patients receiving long-term treatment. PMID: 12963565
> If you want to use lowering LDL to make claims that the drug must > therefore be beneficial, go for it. Some of us however are actually > concerned with quality of life and lifespan, not drug company profit > margins and want to see real significant results in lowering of > all-cause-mortality and increases in lifespan over placebo, something > that hasn't occurred with statin drugs. There you go again -- falsely attributing various positions to me, and then attacking them. Of *course* HDL and LDL particle size (in addition to other factors) are also critically important in atherosclerosis, but that's not the issue I was addressing. 1) you suggested that the vytorin study showed that lowering LDL does not affect CAD -- completely false 2) you said that the vytorin study showed an "acceleration" of arterial plaque as LDL was lowered -- again, completely false.
I don't care if anyone buys vytorin, statins, fish oil or drinks coconut oil with every meal, for that matter. I was simply correcting the garbage spewing from your keyboard.
Taka - 12 Jul 2009 17:47 GMT For those clinical trial lovers some recent stuff:
Am J Cardiol. 2009 Jul 1;104(1):29-35. Epub 2009 May 4.
Safety and efficacy of achieving very low low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels with rosuvastatin 40 mg daily (from the ASTEROID Study).
Wiviott SD, Mohanavelu S, Raichlen JS, Cain VA, Nissen SE, Libby P. Cardiovascular Division, Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA.
Clinical trial evidence supports the use of intensive statin therapy for patients with coronary artery disease. High doses of potent statins have shown the greatest clinical benefit, but concerns persist regarding the efficacy and safety of achieving very low levels of low- density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol. We grouped patients treated with 40 mg of rosuvastatin daily by the LDL cholesterol achieved according to previous work (<40, 40 to <60, 60 to <80, 80 to <100, and
> or =100 mg/dl) and by National Cholesterol Education Program targets (<70, 70 to <100, and > or =100 mg/dl) in A Study to Evaluate the Effect of Rosuvastatin on Intravascular Ultrasound-Derived Coronary Atheroma Burden (ASTEROID). The rates of key safety end points, including death, hemorrhagic stroke, and liver and muscle enzyme elevations, and key efficacy end points (atheroma burden) were compared using chi-square testing or Fisher's exact testing. The analysis included 471 patients who had had their LDL cholesterol measured at 3 months, of whom 340 (72.2%) had LDL cholesterol of <70 mg/dl, exhibiting excellent achievement of even the most stringent guideline-based goals. Of these 471 subjects, 192 (40.8%) had LDL cholesterol > or =40 mg/dl but <60 mg/dl, and 57 (12.1%) had LDL cholesterol <40 mg/dl. Adverse events occurred infrequently during the trial, and no pattern appeared relating the frequency of any adverse event to the achieved LDL cholesterol. Similarly, the on-treatment atheroma volume, change in atheroma volume, and high percentage of subjects with atheroma regression did not differ by the achieved LDL cholesterol. In conclusion, although the power to detect such changes was limited, these data showed no clear relation between the LDL cholesterol achieved by intensive statin therapy with rosuvastatin and adverse effects. Atheroma regression occurred in most patients and was not linked to the LDL cholesterol achieved. PMID: 19576317
and a discussion on this better than I could ever make:
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/07/may-2009-asteroid-destroys-lipid.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2006/11/cholesterol-bogeyman.html http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/12/cholesterol-and-son-of-j-lit.html
David - 15 Jul 2009 01:30 GMT > For those clinical trial lovers some recent stuff: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cholesterol levels with rosuvastatin 40 mg daily (from the ASTEROID > Study). The sample was too small to detect differences in atheroma regression between groups. The "less than 70 LDL" group had 340 patients, while the "greater than 100 LDL" group only had 28 patients.
The more important news here is that *all* statin groups achieved atheroma regression.
And hey, this is interesting: "patients tolerated the treatment very well, and no relation was found between the achieved LDL cholesterol and adverse events."
That's amazing! Based on some of the unfounded claims in this thread, most of them should have committed suicide!
Taka - 15 Jul 2009 02:14 GMT > The more important news here is that *all* statin groups achieved > atheroma regression. Independent of the statin's LDL lowering effects. Yes, statins can cause atheroma regression but the mechanism is not via their LDL lowering activity. Get educated here:
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/07/may-2009-asteroid-destroys-lipid.html (plenty of peer review references if you can see them)
Statins boost stem cells and possibly trigger tissue repair processes but in a dangerous way. They also damage muscles what "could" be used in bodybuilding because the damage actually grows the muscles (PGF2a ...). But this is playing with a fire ...
Taka
David - 15 Jul 2009 04:03 GMT > > The more important news here is that *all* statin groups achieved > > atheroma regression. > > Independent of the statin's LDL lowering effects. Yes, statins can > cause atheroma regression but the mechanism is not via their LDL > lowering activity. No, not independent of their LDL lowering effects. Statins have anti- inflammatory effects and relatively small HDL-raising effects
> http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/07/may-2009-asteroid-dest... > (plenty of peer review references if you can see them) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Taka Don't just "parrot" the discussion of some hacks from an anti-statin web site. Present your evidence that this mechanism is responsible for the regression of atherosclerotic plaques.
Taka - 15 Jul 2009 05:44 GMT > > > The more important news here is that *all* statin groups achieved > > > atheroma regression. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No, not independent of their LDL lowering effects. Statins have anti- > inflammatory effects and relatively small HDL-raising effects You don't need anti-inflammatory effects if you reduce arachidonic acid in your body. LDL can be loaded either with linoleic or oleic acid. Your statin propaganda only concerns the linoleic acid loaded one, which gets oxidized and then scavenged by macrophages which turn into your atheroma plaques. The one without linoleic or alpha- linolenic acid is a safe LDL which prevents cancer, depressions, infections and is otherwise beneficial.
Do you know that most physicians get financial reward from the drug companies for luring new patients into taking the statins? Are you one of them? Once on statins they can never stop because their cholesterol would skyrocket! So many benefits of the Omega-6 fatty acids for the medical industries ....
Taka
David - 16 Jul 2009 00:36 GMT > > > > The more important news here is that *all* statin groups achieved > > > > atheroma regression. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > one, which gets oxidized and then scavenged by macrophages which turn > into your atheroma plaques. You're missing the point -- statins work, and they work via reduction of LDL (among other mechanisms).
No one is claiming that statins are *necessary* to prevent heart disease, only that they are a simple and highly effective tool in the anti-heart disease arsenal.
> Do you know that most physicians get financial reward from the drug > companies for luring new patients into taking the statins? Oooh "luring"......now that's rich. Do you know that many of the web sites you quote as "evidence" get financial rewards for selling books, supplements and candy bars and by scaring people away from medications so that they will buy their products instead?
> Are you one of them? I wondered how long it would take you to get around to this. And the answer, by the way, is no -- we don't prescribe statins in dermatology.
> Once on statins they can never stop because their cholesterol would skyrocket! So now you're saying that there's some kind of "rebound effect" causing a patient's cholesterol to go higher than pre-treatment values once they discontinue a statin? Once again, a wild and completely false claim with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.
As usual, all fluff and no evidence........well, at least you're predictable.
Taka - 16 Jul 2009 10:00 GMT and here is some opinion that oxysterols may be actually protective against atherosclerosis!
"I want to point out that dairy products were not unique to the Masai. All manner of beasts were milked in Europe, as elsewhere. Like in the Masai in recent times, most of the milk was consumed after it had been allowed to go sour, a product we would identify as yogurt. This is not the same as the yogurt currently marketed in the western world. Cream taken from the soured milk was used to make butter, and butter has good keeping properties. Simple churning of fresh cream gives the equivalent of whipped cream, it does not give butter. Cream that has been allowed to "ripen" will show separation of fat and water when churned. This was practiced throughout the world until the advent of refrigeration at the beginning of the 20th century when food handling techniques were changed in the developed world.
There are a number of consequences in allowing milk to sour. One is that lactose is broken down so that this product can be consumed by people with a mild degree of lactose intolerance. I suspect that mild lactose intolerance is as common in the Masai as it is in other parts of Africa, but the Masai must be able to tolerate sour milk which is a part of their basic diet. Sour milk is commonly consumed to this day in many parts of Africa.
Another consequence of leaving milk fat to sour is that the cholesterol contained therein undergoes some spontaneous oxidation, forming oxysterols. Oxysterols have the property of preventing crystallization of cholesterol from supersaturated solution. I believe it is the crystallization of cholesterol from the plasma lipids that are deposited in the arterial intima that renders that cholesterol atherogenic; and that adequate oxysterols in the diet could prevent that from happening.
I should add that meat has been preserved for millenia by allowing it to dry in the air.The same oxidative changes occur in the cholesterol in meat
In my view, the critical change in the human diet with relevance to atherogenesis was the alteration in food handling techniques allowed by refrigeration, introduced in the developed world early in the 20th century. This inadvertently largely eliminated the spontaneous generation of oxysterols in foods of animal origin, removing these compounds from the human diet."
SOURCE: http://www.thincs.org/discuss.cordainagain.htm
Taka - 16 Jul 2009 16:46 GMT J Clin Epidemiol. 1998 Jun;51(6):443-60.
The questionable role of saturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids in cardiovascular disease.
Ravnskov U.
A fat diet, rich in saturated fatty acids (SFA) and low in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA), is said to be an important cause of atherosclerosis and cardiovascular diseases (CVD). The evidence for this hypothesis was sought by reviewing studies of the direct link between dietary fats and atherosclerotic vascular disease in human beings. The review included ecological, dynamic population, cross- sectional, cohort, and case-control studies, as well as controlled, randomized trials of the effect of fat reduction alone. The positive ecological correlations between national intakes of total fat (TF) and SFA and cardiovascular mortality found in earlier studies were absent or negative in the larger, more recent studies. Secular trends of national fat consumption and mortality from coronary heart disease (CHD) in 18-35 countries (four studies) during different time periods diverged from each other as often as they coincided. In cross- sectional studies of CHD and atherosclerosis, one group of studies (Bantu people vs. Caucasians) were supportive; six groups of studies (West Indians vs. Americans, Japanese, and Japanese migrants vs. Americans, Yemenite Jews vs. Yemenite migrants; Seminole and Pima Indians vs. Americans, Seven Countries) gave partly supportive, partly contradictive results; in seven groups of studies (Navajo Indians vs. Americans; pure vegetarians vs. lacto-ovo-vegetarians and non- vegetarians, Masai people vs. Americans, Asiatic Indians vs. non- Indians, north vs. south Indians, Indian migrants vs. British residents, Geographic Study of Atherosclerosis) the findings were contradictory. Among 21 cohort studies of CHD including 28 cohorts, CHD patients had eaten significantly more SFA in three cohorts and significantly less in one cohort than had CHD-free individuals; in 22 cohorts no significant difference was noted. In three cohorts, CHD patients had eaten significantly more PUFA, in 24 cohorts no significant difference was noted. In three of four cohort studies of atherosclerosis, the vascular changes were unassociated with SFA or PUFA; in one study they were inversely related to TF. No significant differences in fat intake were noted in six case-control studies of CVD patients and CVD-free controls; and neither total or CHD mortality were lowered in a meta-analysis of nine controlled, randomized dietary trials with substantial reductions of dietary fats, in six trials combined with addition of PUFA. The harmful effect of dietary SFA and the protective effect of dietary PUFA on atherosclerosis and CVD are questioned. PMID: 9635993
Taka - 17 Jul 2009 06:52 GMT FROM: http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/hurtful-food-saturated-fat-vs-polyunsaturat ed-fat.html
Saturated fats are bad? Where is the evidence? I've been studying nutrition since 1977 and have never found evidence that there is evidence that saturated fats cause clogged arteries. Yes, I know. Mainstream nutrition science has been telling us for 50 years to consume less saturated fat and more unsaturated fat. Well, if consensus of opinion is the proper test for truth, I'm in BIG trouble because I've been consuming a diet high in saturated fat for about a quarter century. This includes between two and three pounds of butter a week plus cheese, yoghurt, cottege cheese, sour cream, beef, bacon, and eggs. So why haven't my arteries clogged? Because I consume adequate supportive nutrition. One can't consume bakery goods, chips, soda pop, candy bars, and all those other manufactured foods and expect to process saturated fat properly. Rather than go on and on about this I'll let Dr. Roger J. Williams explain the matter.
Dave Brown
Book excerpt: (my thanks to Dr. Donald R. Davis, Jr. Ph.D. University of Texas at Austin, for permission to use this material in my Nutrition Education Project).
The following paragraphs are from pages 81-83 of Nutrition Against Disease (1972) by Roger J. Williams, PhD. More information about Dr. Williams and his work is available at www.doctoryourself.com. I encourage you to read the references and notes. They are every bit as interesting as the associated text. Dave Brown
No discussion of heart disease would be complete without mention of the question of saturated fats. It has come to be almost an orthodox position that if one wishes to protect oneself against heart disease, one should avoid eating saturated (animal) fats. While this idea may not be entirely in error, it is misleading in its emphasis. The evidence shows that high fat consumption, when accompanied by plenty of the essential nutrients which all the cells need, does not cause atherosclerosis or heart disease. Rats have been used extensively to study the effects of diet on atherosclerosis. Under ordinary dietary conditions the inclusion of saturated fats in their diet will consistently promote the deposition of cholesterol in their arteries.(50) For 285 days rats were fed a diet containing 61.6 percent animal fat, but highly superior with respect to protein, mineral, and vitamin content, without producing any pathological changes in the aorta or in the heart.(51) The animals did, to be sure, become obese, as much as three to four times their normal weight. Animals fed vegetable fats at the same level fared essentially no better and no worse. These findings were based upon extensive long-term experiments at Yale, using a total of 600 rats, which were observed for as long as two years. There were no findings suggestive that either high animal fat diets or high vegetable fat diets were conducive under these conditions to atherosclerosis. These animals represented an extreme condition, since 81 percent of their energy came from fats. Their diets otherwise were extremely good. The protein was of high quality (casin) and was kept at a high level (20 percent); the vitamin levels were double those ordinarily used in this laboratory. The Yale findings were corroborated almost a decade later (1965) at Tufts University School of Medicine.(52) That cardiovascular disease is not associated with high fat diets is also shown by comparison study of matched groups of twenty-eight railwaymen from North India and twenty-eight from Southern India.(53) The consumption of fats, mostly of animal origin, was ten times higher among the North Indians than the South Indians, but there were no significant differences between their lipid and cholesterol levels. Among the South Indian population, the incidence of heart disease is said to be fifteen times as high as among the North Indians where the fat content of the diet is ten times higher. Dietary factors are doubtless very important in connection with the incidence of heart disease, but fat is only one factor, and other dietary factors are considerably more important. This is also corroborated by a study of 400 Masai men in Tanganyika. (54) In spite of the fact that the diet of these men is almost exclusively milk and meat (consumption of whole blood is relatively rare), both of which contain much fat and plenty of cholesterol, the cholesterol levels in the blood of the Masai are extraordinarily low, and there was "no evidence of arteriosclerotic heart disease." It should be noted that a diet containing large quantities of meat is free from "naked calories," and is certain to supply an assortment of amino acids, minerals, and vitamins in liberal amounts. Though the Masai have other health disorders - many of infective origin - they probably escape heart disease because their body cells are furnished with an environment that is adequate enough to protect their hearts and blood vessels. A corollary of the notion that saturated fats are archvillains is the idea that one should eat substantial amounts of polyunsaturated fats. (The phrase "polyunsaturated fatty acids" has become virtually synonymous with "heart protection" in both popular and orthodox medical thinking.) While everyone should have unsaturated fats in his diet, their presence does not by any means afford adequate protection against atherosclerosis and heart disease. The current consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids in the USA is higher than it has ever been, yet this does not curb heart disease.(55) There are many reasons on which to base our conclusion that other factors are far more important.(56) When other deficiencies are eliminated, the amount of unsaturated fat is of secondary importance. If there is plenty of vitamin B6 in the diet, fat metabolism tends to take care of itself. I have said a good deal about vitamin B6, but I do not mean to imply that it is, by itself, the answer to heart disease. All the nutrients contribute to the prevention of heart trouble.
References and notes: 50. Thomas, W.A., and Hartroft, W.S. "Myocardial infarction in rats fed diets containing high fat, cholesterol, thiouracil, and sodium cholate." Circulation, 19:65, 1959; Taylor, C. B., et al. "Fatal myocardial infarction in rhesus monkeys with diet-induced hyper- cholesterolemia." Circulation, 20;975, 1959. In the above experiments, the investigators found that prolonged feeding of butter or lard to rats resulted in hyperlipemia and finally coronary thrombosis and myocardial infarction with lesions similar to those found in human beings. The diets of these animals were regarded as otherwise "normal" in respect to their intake of supplementary vitamins, minerals, and amino acids. Other data, however (see reference note 52 below) demonstrate that when fat and cholesterol (or animal protein) are increased in the diet, certain nutrients (particularly pyridoxine) must be increased above "average" or "normal" requirements.
51. Barboriak, J.J., et al. "Influence of high-fat diets on growth and development of obesity in the albino rat." J. Nutr., 64: 241, 1958.
52. Naimi, S., et al. "Cardiovascular lesions, blood lipids, coagulation and fibrinolysis in butter-induced obesity in the rat." J. Nutr., 86:325, 1965. In this more recent study, Naimi and his colleagues were directly interested in the effects of a high fat butter-induced obesity on the cardiovascular system of seventeen male Wistar albino rats. Butter constituted 65 percent of the total calories, with 20 percent protein (casin) and generous vitamin and mineral supplements equal to if not superior to those used in the above-mentioned Yale study. Under the conditions of their experiment, these investigators found that a high fat butter diet causing obesity in rats did not produce changes in blood cholesterol nor result in cardiovascular lesions, as other data had led them to expect. The authors note, "The absence of such adverse changes, despite, the development of gross obesity in these animals may be significant, since both obesity and animal fats have been considered to be associated with lipemia and vascular lesions. It may be suggested that other dietary factors might have protected the experimental group against such changes. Yet, even if this happens to be the case, it should not detract from the significance of the fact that large amounts of saturated fat and obesity are not necessarily associated with lipemia and vascular lesions." We are confident that other dietary factors did protect these rats, and that only in the absence of sufficient supportive nutrients are obesity and high fat and high cholesterol diets associated with atherosclerosis and heart disease in the human population.
53. Malhotra, S.L., "Serum Lipids, dietary factors and ischemic heart disease," Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 20:462, 1967. See also Malhotra, S.L., "Geographical aspects of acute myocardial infarction in India, with special reference to the pattern of diet and eating." Brit. Heart J., 29:777, 1967.
54. Mann, G.V., et al. "Cardiovascular disease in the Masai." J. Atheroscler. Res., 4:289, 1964. In an extensive review of the various peoples of the earth who have little or no atherosclerosis and are virtually free of heart disease, Lowenstein found that the fat intake ranged from 21 grams per day to as much as 355 grams per day (Lowenstein, F.W. Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 15:175, 1964). In both the Somalis and the Samburus of East Africa, the diet is from 60 to 65 percent fat (animal), and yet they are nearly free from atherosclerosis and heart attacks. While it might be argued that ethnic differences are involved here, population groups of wide ethnic variation have been reported who subsist on high fat, high cholesterol, high caloric diets while remaining virtually free of coronary heart disease. In the text we have mentioned the report of Mann and his colleagues of the Masai tribe who subsist on a diet excessively high in butter fat (and cholesterol), the fat constituting as much as 60 percent of the total calories consumed, yet are virtually free of cardiovascular disease. Gsell and Mayer report that the semiisolated peoples of the Loetschental valley in the Valaisian Alps of Switzerland habitually eat a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol, high in calories, but evidence low serum cholesterol values and little cardiovascular disorders (Gsell, D., and Mayer, J. "Low blood cholesterol associated with high calorie, high saturated fat intake in a Swiss Alpine village population." Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 10:471, 1962). Stout and his coworkers report that an Italian immigrant colony in Roseta, Pennsylvania, consumes diets much richer than other Americans, yet have less than half the incidence of coronary heart disease (J. A. M. A., 188:845, 1964). In a survey study of 27,000 Kenya East Indians, A. D. Charters and B. P. Arya report (Lancet, 1:288, 1960) that the animal fat consumption was relatively high among the Punjabi nonvegetarians and relatively low among the vegetarian Gujeratis, but the percentage of heart disease morbidity "is closely proportional to that of the population." The statistics of their survey, conclude these investigators, suggest that in the case of the East Indian population in Kenya, "the ingestion of animal fats is not an important etiological factor" in heart disease morbidity. Interestingly, besides their low animal fat diet, the Gujerati vegetarians consume foods rich in polyunsaturated oils, as groundnut, cottonseed, and simsim oils, yet were not "protected from coronary occlusion by a high intake of unsaturated fatty acids." In an epidemiological study of coronary heart disease in a general population of 106,000 Americans conducted over a one year period, W.J. Zukel and his coworkers found the highly provocative fact that farmers showed a much lower incidence of coronary heart disease than males of other groups, in spite of the fact that there were no substantial differences in their mean caloric intake or fat and cholesterol consumption (Zukel, W. J., et al. Am. J. Pub. Health, 49:1630. 1959). In an epidemiological study of two Polynesian island groups, Hunter compared the diet, body build, blood pressure, and serum cholesterol levels of the tradition-following Atiu and Mitiaro with the more Europeanized Raroyongan Neighbors (Hunter, J.D. Fed. Proc., 21, Supp. 11:36, 1962). The Atiu-Mitiaro people live on a diet low in calories and protein but rich in highly saturated coconut fat. Hunter found that 25 percent of Rarotongans (males) suffered from hypertension as compared to only 10 percent of the Atiu-Mitiaro males. While the serum cholesterol levels of the saturated coconut fat-eating Atiu-Mitiaro males were higher (as high as European males), Hunter was unable to discover by electrocardiographic readings any tendency to coronary heart disease. Finally we turn to the early primitive Eskimo who subsisted almost totally on an excessively high animal fat diet. In an early 1927 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (May), in an article titled "Health of a Carnivorous Race," Dr. William Thomas reports that of 142 adults between the ages of forty and sixty who were completely examined, he found no unusual signs of vascular or renal morbidity, and all indications were that diseases of the cardiovascular system were not prevalent among these people. This is in agreement with other reports of scientists of the primitive Eskimo (e.g. C. Lieb. J. A. M. A., July, 1926; V. Stefannsson, in his book Cancer: Disease of Civilization, p. 76; I. M. Rabinowitch, Canad. Med. Assoc. J., 31:487, 1936; W. Price, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. New York: Hoeber, 1939). It is clear, therefore, that adult males of a widely differing ethnic stock can subsist on a high fat, high cholesterol, high caloric diet, and yet remain relatively free of cardiovascular disorders. Even if prevailing views are to the contrary, I think that the evidence points strongly toward the conclusion that the nutritional environment of the body cells - involving minerals, amino acids, and vitamins - is crucial, and that the amount of fat or cholesterol consumed is relatively inconsequential.
55. Antar, M.A., et al. "Changes in retail market food supplies in the United States . . . ." Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 14:169, 1964
Taka - 15 Jul 2009 02:15 GMT Another happy high cholesterol guy:
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/
David - 15 Jul 2009 04:06 GMT > Another happy high cholesterol guy: > > http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/ Wow, a guy selling his books and low-carb chocolate bars!!! Now that's a credible source!!!
Taka - 16 Jul 2009 09:56 GMT > > Another happy high cholesterol guy: > > >http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/ > > Wow, a guy selling his books and low-carb chocolate bars!!! Now > that's a credible source!!! This is not about selling books and chocolate bars you dermatologist. Here is your peer review evidence how lard protects the blueprint of life DNA while sugar (and possibly statins) damages it:
Free Radic Res. 2003 Sep;37(9):947-56.
Effect of increased intake of dietary animal fat and fat energy on oxidative damage, mutation frequency, DNA adduct level and DNA repair in rat colon and liver.
Vogel U, Danesvar B, Autrup H, Risom L, Weimann A, Poulsen HE, Møller P, Loft S, Wallin H, Dragsted LO. National Institute of Occupational Health, Lersø Parkallé 105, DK-2100, Copenhagen, Denmark.
The effect of high dietary intake of animal fat and an increased fat energy intake on colon and liver genotoxicity and on markers of oxidative damage and antioxidative defence in colon, liver and plasma was investigated in Big Blue rats. The rats were fed ad libitum with semi-synthetic feed supplemented with 0, 3, 10 or 30% w/w lard. After 3 weeks, the mutation frequency, DNA repair gene expression, DNA damage and oxidative markers were determined in liver, colon and plasma. The mutation frequency of the lambda gene cII did not increase with increased fat or energy intake in colon or liver. The DNA-adduct level measured by 32P-postlabelling decreased in both liver and colon with increased fat intake. In liver, this was accompanied by a 2-fold increase of the mRNA level of nucleotide excision repair (NER) gene ERCC1. In colon, a non-statistically significant increase in the ERCC1 mRNA levels was observed. Intake of lard fat resulted in increased ascorbate synthesis and affected markers of oxidative damage to proteins in liver cytosol, but not in plasma. The effect was observed at all lard doses and was not dose-dependent. However, no evidence of increased oxidative DNA damage was found in liver, colon, or urine. Thus, lard intake at the expense of other nutrients and a large increase in the fat energy consumption affects the redox state locally in the liver cytosol, but does not induce DNA-damage, systemic oxidative stress or a dose-dependent increase in mutation frequency in rat colon or liver. PMID: 14670002
Cancer Res. 2002 Aug 1;62(15):4339-45.
A sucrose-rich diet induces mutations in the rat colon.
Dragsted LO, Daneshvar B, Vogel U, Autrup HN, Wallin H, Risom L, Møller P, Mølck AM, Hansen M, Poulsen HE, Loft S. Institute of Food Safety and Nutrition, Division of Biochemical and Molecular Toxicology, The Danish Veterinary and Food Administration, DK-2860 Søborg, Denmark.
A sucrose-rich diet has repeatedly been observed to have cocarcinogenic actions in the colon and liver of rats and to increase the number of aberrant crypt foci in rat colon. To investigate whether sucrose-rich diets might directly increase the genotoxic response in the rat colon or liver, we have added sucrose to the diet of Big Blue rats, a strain of Fischer rats carrying 40 copies of the lambda-phage on chromosome 4. Dietary sucrose was provided to the rats for 3 weeks at four dose levels including the background level in the purified diet [3.4% (control), 6.9%, 13.8%, or 34.5%] without affecting the overall energy and carbohydrate intake. We observed a dose-dependent increase in the mutation frequency at the cII site in the colonic mucosa with increased sucrose levels, reaching a 129% increase at the highest dose level. This would indicate a direct or indirect genotoxic effect of a sucrose-rich diet. No significant increase in mutations was observed in the liver. To seek an explanation for this finding, a variety of parameters were examined representing different mechanisms, including increased oxidative stress, changes in oxidative defense, effects on DNA repair, or changes in the background levels of DNA adducts. Sucrose did not increase the number of DNA strand breaks or oxidized bases assessed as endonuclease III-sensitive sites or 8- oxodeoxyguanosine in colon or liver. DNA repair capacity as determined by expression of the rERCC1 or rOGG1 genes was not increased in colon or liver, but the background level of DNA adducts (I-compounds) as determined by (32)P postlabeling was significantly decreased in colon. This decrease in colon I-compounds correlated inversely with both mutation frequency and ERCC1 DNA repair gene expression. Dietary sucrose did not change liver apoptosis or cell turnover as determined by the terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase-mediated biotinylated deoxyuridine triphosphate nick end labeling assay and proliferating cell nuclear antigen. An increase in liver ascorbate was also observed, whereas oxidative damage was not observed in proteins or lipids in liver cytosol or in blood plasma. We conclude that a sucrose- rich diet directly or indirectly increases the mutation frequency in rat colon in a dose-dependent manner and concomitantly decreases the level of background DNA adducts, without a direct effect on the expression of major DNA repair enzyme systems. We also conclude that an oxidative mechanism for this effect of sucrose is unlikely. This is the first demonstration of a genotoxic action of increased dietary sucrose in vivo. Both sucrose intake and colon cancer rates are high in the Western world, and our present results call for an examination of a possible direct relationship between the two. PMID: 12154038
David - 17 Jul 2009 14:04 GMT > Here is your peer review evidence Well, at least you've implicitly conceded your false assertions regarding statin medications.
I wouldn't argue that a person who eats a moderate to low calorie diet (or who eats a higher calorie diet but expends a lot of energy through exercise) and avoids abdominal obesity, while eating plenty of whole foods and avoiding trans fats, could be quite healthy even with a relatively higher percentage of certain saturated fats.
Susan - 12 Jul 2009 01:03 GMT > You have no idea what you're talking about. Even if this study could > be used as evidence against LDL as a causal factor in CAD, it would > not refute the mountains of data accumulated over decades. The mountains of data accumulated over decades do not support LDL as causal in CVD. It's a marker of endocrine disruption, just one of several. And it's the least predictive of all lipid markers for CVD.
Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they don't *cause* CVD. As it turns out, the high insulin levels caused by high carb consumption raise LDL because high insulin levels inhibit adrenal steroidogenesis, so your body makes more LDL available to protect you.
LDL is what all of our adrenal steroids, including sex hormones, electrolyte balancing hormones and cortisol, stress hormone are made from. Your body raises LDL when you have a need for more of these hormones. LDL is essential to health. If you have low TGLs and high HDL, it doesn't matter how high your LDL is, it will tend to be the large, bouyant, fluffy type that doesn't bode ill.
Susan
David - 12 Jul 2009 12:19 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The mountains of data accumulated over decades do not support LDL as > causal in CVD. I don't know what data you've been reading, but it's not the "peer reviewed published" kind.
> Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they > don't *cause* CVD. Yes, they do. What *have* you been reading? Small, dense LDL particles are more atherogenic because they are better able to penetrate the endothelium of blood vessels and be deposited in atherosclerotic plaques.
You can state that elevated LDL is a form of endocrine disruption, *and* it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis. The two statements are not mutually exclusive.
Taka - 12 Jul 2009 16:22 GMT > > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I don't know what data you've been reading, but it's not the "peer > reviewed published" kind. Your "peer review" cherry picked stuff. There are also plenty of "peer review" studies against lowering cholesterol particularly with the statin drugs at the following sites:
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/index.html http://www.thincs.org/
I prefer the "peer review" studies which bring something new mechanistically (based on the original experimental work and not some dubious questionnaires) which are sadly in minority compared to the "studies" parroting the current dogmas. There are many stupid people becoming researchers these days who can relatively safely and effortlessly advance their careers by just being good parrots. There is also some quantum mechanics in the way how most of the people think and in what they cannot comprehend, ever heard about the 100 monkeys experiment?
Taka
Taka - 12 Jul 2009 17:57 GMT Some more non-peer reviewed reading with references to peer-reviewed literature on the topic:
http://www.biblelife.org/saturated_fat.htm
David - 14 Jul 2009 00:39 GMT > Some more non-peer reviewed reading with references to peer-reviewed > literature on the topic: > > http://www.biblelife.org/saturated_fat.htm Well hey, everybody knows you can trust health information from a web site that has an "Evolution Is Dead" banner at the bottom!!
David - 15 Jul 2009 00:57 GMT > There are also plenty of > "peer review" studies against lowering cholesterol particularly with > the statin drugs at the following sites: > > http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/index.html > http://www.thincs.org/ All I see on those sites is book reviews, movie reviews and lots of propaganda. No peer reviewed literature or studies. What a surprise!
> ever heard about the 100 monkeys > experiment? > Taka The only monkey I know goes by the nickname "Taka".
David - 15 Jul 2009 00:57 GMT > There are also plenty of > "peer review" studies against lowering cholesterol particularly with > the statin drugs at the following sites: > > http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/index.html > http://www.thincs.org/ All I see on those sites is book reviews, movie reviews and lots of propaganda. No peer reviewed literature or studies. What a surprise!
> ever heard about the 100 monkeys > experiment? > Taka The only monkey I know goes by the nickname "Taka".
Susan - 13 Jul 2009 21:41 GMT >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I don't know what data you've been reading, but it's not the "peer > reviewed published" kind. As a matter of fact, that's all I typically read.
>> Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they >> don't *cause* CVD. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > penetrate the endothelium of blood vessels and be deposited in > atherosclerotic plaques. I said that LDL is not the cause. What you describe is an effect of over all metabolic disorder. That's a drug target, a surrogate for actual useful prevention.
> You can state that elevated LDL is a form of endocrine disruption, > *and* it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis. The two statements > are not mutually exclusive. LDL is not "bad" cholesterol, and if you lower it without understanding why your body is raising it, you are making a big mess, health wise.
Susan
David - 15 Jul 2009 01:12 GMT > >> Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they > >> don't *cause* CVD. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > all metabolic disorder. That's a drug target, a surrogate for actual > useful prevention. You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or- white thinking. Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality of atherogenesis, does not mean that LDL is not a critical causal component of atherogenesis. In fact, it is, and this is more than well-established.
Or let's put it this way -- please reveal your soon-to-be Nobel Prize- winning mechanistic theory of atherosclerotic plaque formation which does *not* involve LDL cholesterol at any point in the chain of events.
> > You can state that elevated LDL is a form of endocrine disruption, > > *and* it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis. The two statements [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan I never called LDL "bad" in and of itself. I said it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis. An obese person eating a terrible diet can reduce his risk of heart attack by lowering his LDL with a statin or other medication, and/or he can reduce his risk by losing weight, exercising, and/or eating a healthy whole-foods diet (choosing from various macronutrient ratios). Again, these factors of risk reduction are not mutually exclusive.
Just because a person can successfully reduce risk by dietary and/or lifestyle modifications does not mean that statins don't work, or that LDL is not causally involved in atherosclerosis!
Susan - 15 Jul 2009 01:51 GMT > You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or- > white thinking. Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality > of atherogenesis, does not mean that LDL is not a critical causal > component of atherogenesis. In fact, it is, and this is more than > well-established. No, it isn't as a cause. And the public and medical profession's acceptance of the term "bad cholesterol" is absolutely scandalous.
> I never called LDL "bad" in and of itself. I said it is a causal > factor in atherosclerosis. And I say it isn't. In fact, if you look at nation's LDL levels and mortality from CVD, some of the highest LDL averages have the lowest incidence of CVD. The pan Asian study proved that LDL is the worst of all lipid predictors of CVD. It's a marker, not a cause. The fact that VLDL can become atherogenic makes it a factor in a process, but not a cause.
> An obese person eating a terrible diet can
> reduce his risk of heart attack by lowering his LDL with a statin or > other medication, and/or he can reduce his risk by losing weight, > exercising, and/or eating a healthy whole-foods diet (choosing from > various macronutrient ratios). Again, these factors of risk reduction > are not mutually exclusive. A person eating a low carb, antioxidant, high fat diet can prevent CVD even with high LDL.
> Just because a person can successfully reduce risk by dietary and/or > lifestyle modifications does not mean that statins don't work, or that > LDL is not causally involved in atherosclerosis! Statins don't work for most people, and where they do work, they're unnecessarily risky.
Susan
David - 15 Jul 2009 03:59 GMT > > You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or- > > white thinking. Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No, it isn't as a cause. And the public and medical profession's > acceptance of the term "bad cholesterol" is absolutely scandalous. Just holding your breath like a little girl and saying "no it isn't!" in the face of overwhelming evidence isn't going to cut it.
I'm still waiting to hear your theory of atherosclerotic plaque formation that does not involve LDL.
> A person eating a low carb, antioxidant, high fat diet can prevent CVD > even with high LDL. Yes, and some people can smoke 3 packs a day for 60 years and never get lung cancer. So does this mean that cigarrette smoking is not a cause of lung cancer? You really need to step back and take an objective look at your reasoning.
> > Just because a person can successfully reduce risk by dietary and/or > > lifestyle modifications does not mean that statins don't work, or that > > LDL is not causally involved in atherosclerosis! > > Statins don't work for most people Really? On what basis do you make that claim? Certainly not the peer reviewed literature that you *claim* to read.
> and where they do work, they're > unnecessarily risky. Another value judgement not based on evidence. You obviously have a strong emotional bias against statin drugs. So much for objectivity!
Susan - 15 Jul 2009 15:02 GMT >>> You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or- >>> white thinking. Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I'm still waiting to hear your theory of atherosclerotic plaque > formation that does not involve LDL. I'm still waiting for proof that LDL cholesterol causes CVD.
Not that it gets recruited, that it's the cause.
Susan
David - 16 Jul 2009 00:07 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Susan You really don't even know the first thing about mechanisms of atherosclerosis, do you. That's why you keep dodging the question.
David - 15 Jul 2009 01:12 GMT > >> Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they > >> don't *cause* CVD. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > all metabolic disorder. That's a drug target, a surrogate for actual > useful prevention. You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or- white thinking. Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality of atherogenesis, does not mean that LDL is not a critical causal component of atherogenesis. In fact, it is, and this is more than well-established.
Or let's put it this way -- please reveal your soon-to-be Nobel Prize- winning mechanistic theory of atherosclerotic plaque formation which does *not* involve LDL cholesterol at any point in the chain of events.
> > You can state that elevated LDL is a form of endocrine disruption, > > *and* it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis. The two statements [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan I never called LDL "bad" in and of itself. I said it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis. An obese person eating a terrible diet can reduce his risk of heart attack by lowering his LDL with a statin or other medication, and/or he can reduce his risk by losing weight, exercising, and/or eating a healthy whole-foods diet (choosing from various macronutrient ratios). Again, these factors of risk reduction are not mutually exclusive.
Just because a person can successfully reduce risk by dietary and/or lifestyle modifications does not mean that statins don't work, or that LDL is not causally involved in atherosclerosis!
David - 15 Jul 2009 01:13 GMT > >> Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they > >> don't *cause* CVD. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > all metabolic disorder. That's a drug target, a surrogate for actual > useful prevention. You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or- white thinking. Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality of atherogenesis, does not mean that LDL is not a critical causal component of atherogenesis. In fact, it is, and this is more than well-established.
Or let's put it this way -- please reveal your soon-to-be Nobel Prize- winning mechanistic theory of atherosclerotic plaque formation which does *not* involve LDL cholesterol at any point in the chain of events.
> > You can state that elevated LDL is a form of endocrine disruption, > > *and* it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis. The two statements [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan I never called LDL "bad" in and of itself. I said it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis. An obese person eating a terrible diet can reduce his risk of heart attack by lowering his LDL with a statin or other medication, and/or he can reduce his risk by losing weight, exercising, and/or eating a healthy whole-foods diet (choosing from various macronutrient ratios). Again, these factors of risk reduction are not mutually exclusive.
Just because a person can successfully reduce risk by dietary and/or lifestyle modifications does not mean that statins don't work, or that LDL is not causally involved in atherosclerosis!
Ron Peterson - 13 Jul 2009 04:48 GMT > The mountains of data accumulated over decades do not support LDL as > causal in CVD. It's a marker of endocrine disruption, just one of > several. And it's the least predictive of all lipid markers for CVD. http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/full/47/8_Suppl_C/C7 claims otherwise, saying: "Among the many cardiovascular risk factors, elevated plasma cholesterol level is probably unique in being sufficient to drive the development of atherosclerosis, even in the absence of other known risk factors (5). If all adults had plasma cholesterol levels <150 mg/ dl, symptomatic disease would be rare. The other risk factors, such as hypertension, diabetes, smoking, male gender, and possibly inflammatory markers (e.g., C reactive protein, cytokines, and so on), appear to accelerate a disease driven by atherogenic lipoproteins, the first of which being low-density lipoprotein (LDL). How they do it is uncertain, but they may either increase the atherogenicity of LDL (e.g., particle size, number, and composition) or increase the susceptibility of the arterial wall (e.g., permeability, glycation, inflammation, and so on). The importance of risk factors beyond cholesterol is clearly documented by the great disparity in the expression of clinical disease among individuals with the same cholesterol level."
-- Ron
Susan - 13 Jul 2009 21:36 GMT > http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/full/47/8_Suppl_C/C7 claims > otherwise, saying: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > expression of clinical disease among individuals with the same > cholesterol level." Just as I said; no proof of causation.
Risk factors are just markers.
Susan
Ron Peterson - 14 Jul 2009 02:50 GMT > Just as I said; no proof of causation. Proof is a mathematical way of evaluating the truth.
> Risk factors are just markers. It makes sense to try to reduce the risk factors. Would you eat a diet high in saturated fat?
-- Ron
Susan - 14 Jul 2009 15:15 GMT sk factors are just markers.
> It makes sense to try to reduce the risk factors. Would you eat a diet > high in saturated fat? I have for the past decade. I have reversed my insulin resistance and peripheral neuropathies on it, controlled my diabetes and restored excellent kidney function and my lipids ratios have moved from the highest risk category (on a fat restricted diet) to below average and stayed there all this time.
I also pay attention to source/quality issues, buying grass fed meat and dairy and wild fish.
Susan
Ron Peterson - 14 Jul 2009 21:46 GMT > > It makes sense to try to reduce the risk factors. Would you eat a diet > > high in saturated fat?
> I also pay attention to source/quality issues, buying grass fed meat and > dairy and wild fish. Fish isn't high in saturated fat and grass fed meat is lower in saturated fat than grain fed meat, so where are you getting saturated fat?
Do you have an estimate of the nutritional components in your diet such as protein, carbohydrates, saturated fat, MFA, and PUFA?
-- Ron
Arbor B - 11 Jul 2009 20:58 GMT > Oxidized LDL and the PUFA Connection > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > they ate, the less their atherosclerosis progressed; in the highest > intake of saturated fat, the atherosclerosis reversed over time.17 Hey Taka, Would you please post the link (source) at the top of texts that you post at the top (ahead of the text) to let each of us know if the text is even worth attention?
Please! Thanks, Arbor
> I will cover the topic of saturated fat, PUFA, and heart disease in > greater detail in another article on the diet-heart hypothesis. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/The_Cholesterol_Times-Issue-14....
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