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Medical Forum / General / Nutrition / July 2009

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Saturated fat can reverse atherosclerosis

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Taka - 06 Jul 2009 08:09 GMT
Oxidized LDL and the PUFA Connection

Let us return to the traffic analogy for a moment. Why would an "LDL
traffic jam," wherein the "LDL receptor highway" is blocked contribute
to atherosclerosis?

The membrane of LDL contains polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA), which
are highly vulnerable to oxidation. Cells continuously make
antioxidant enzymes and other antioxidant compounds to protect their
membrane PUFA. If PUFA start to oxidize, the cell ramps up its
antioxidant production. When the liver packs cholesterol into a VLDL
particle and secretes it into the blood (where it eventually becomes
an LDL particle after delivering some of its nutrients to other
tissues), it puts some antioxidants into the package. The PUFA have
now left the comparative safety of the liver cell and have only a
limited supply of antioxidants. When those antioxidants are used up,
the PUFA begin to oxidize, and their oxidation products proceed to
damage other components of the lipoprotein. When the oxidation becomes
severe, the oxidized LDL winds up in a foam cell in an atherosclerotic
plaque.

Let's draw another analogy, this time to a jar of oil. If you use a
jar of oil, you open it, exposing the PUFA within it to the oxygen in
the air, but quickly put the cap back on and put it back in the
fridge. What would happen if you opened the jar and let it sit on the
table at room temperature? Over time, the limited amount of
antioxidants in the oil would run out and the PUFA would begin to
oxidize. The oil would go rancid.

Pumping LDL into the blood but letting it sit there circulating round
and round exposed to oxidants rather than taking it into the shelter
of the cell is like opening a jar of oil and leaving it on the table.

LDL taken from people who consume more PUFA, whether from vegetable
oil or fish oil, oxidizes more easily in a test tube. Alpha-
tocopherol, the major form of vitamin E, does not help.15

The specific components of the oxidized LDL particle that interact
with the DNA of monocytes to transform them into macrophages and then
into foam cells are oxidized derivatives of linoleic acid, a PUFA
found in vegetable oils.16

A 2004 study from Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard School of
Public Health showed that in postmenopausal women, the more PUFA they
ate, and to a much lesser extent the more carbohydrate they ate, the
worse their atherosclerosis became over time. The more saturated fat
they ate, the less their atherosclerosis progressed; in the highest
intake of saturated fat, the atherosclerosis reversed over time.17

I will cover the topic of saturated fat, PUFA, and heart disease in
greater detail in another article on the diet-heart hypothesis.
Additionally, I have written a Special Report entitled How Essential
Are the Essential Fatty Acids? that provides accurate and thoroughly
researched information on the true requirement for PUFA, which is
negligible for healthy adults. As part of my Special Reports series, I
will be publishing a second PUFA Report later this year that will
cover the benefits and dangers of consuming PUFA in amounts larger
than the minimum requirements.

READ MORE AT:
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Does-Cholesterol-Cause-Heart-Disease-Myth.html

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/The_Cholesterol_Times-Issue-14.html
montygraham - 06 Jul 2009 22:03 GMT
LDL carries fatty acids.  The more PUFAs in the LDL, the more likely
it is to get oxidized, and when that happens, macrophages try to
"gobble it up."  At some point, the macrophages themselves get
damaged, and "spill" their contents, leading to lesions in the blood
vessels.  Some researchers have described the buildup in vessels as a
"death zone" of chronic inflammation.  Also, the cells that make up
the blood vessels can have AA in them, which probably makes the
situation even worse, though I haven't seen a specific study
addressing this specific point.
Ron Peterson - 08 Jul 2009 22:50 GMT
> Oxidized LDL and the PUFA Connection

J Am Coll Cardiol. 2006 Aug 15;48(4):715-20. Epub 2006 Jul 24. says:
"CONCLUSIONS: Consumption of a saturated fat reduces the anti-
inflammatory potential of HDL and impairs arterial endothelial
function. In contrast, the anti-inflammatory activity of HDL improves
after consumption of polyunsaturated fat. These findings highlight
novel mechanisms by which different dietary fatty acids may influence
key atherogenic processes."

--
  Ron
Thomas Carter - 09 Jul 2009 04:18 GMT
> > Oxidized LDL and the PUFA Connection
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> --
> � �Ron

Hi,

One of the better documented facts in medicine is that PUFAs protect
against heart disease while saturated fat causes it.

The definitive paper on this issue has just been published, and I post
the abstract below.

While PUFAs reduce LDL cholesterol and SFAs increase it, the robust
protection by PUFAs is greater than that due to cholesterol reduction,
meaning that there are other mechanisms for their benefits.

One of these might be that they are antioxidants. They intercept and
secure free radicals, and when  they are metabolized as food the
trapped free radicals are neutralized under controlled conditions.

The failure of antioxidative interventions in the literature may well
be due to the fact that no antioxidant is given in sufficient
quantities, but PUFAs with each linoleic molecule containing two
radical trapping moities are normaly consumed in quantities of 30 to
60 GRAMS. This aniti oxidative "supplementation" is far greater than
that due to pills, which add little to the redox benefit.

There is pretty good evidence that linoleic acid is mildly
carcinogenic, and it's known that cancer cells do import it avidly.
Fish oil and melatonin have been reported to attenuate this
importation by cancer cells.

Thomas

Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 May;89(5):1425-32. Epub 2009 Feb 11.Related
Articles, Links
Comment in:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 May;89(5):1283-4.

Major types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease: a
pooled analysis of 11 cohort studies.

Jakobsen MU, O'Reilly EJ, Heitmann BL, Pereira MA, B�lter K, Fraser
GE, Goldbourt U, Hallmans G, Knekt P, Liu S, Pietinen P, Spiegelman D,
Stevens J, Virtamo J, Willett WC, Ascherio A.

Research Unit for Dietary Studies at the Institute of Preventive
Medicine, Copenhagen University Hospital, Centre for Health and
Society, Copenhagen, Denmark.

BACKGROUND: Saturated fatty acid (SFA) intake increases plasma LDL-
cholesterol concentrations; therefore, intake should be reduced to
prevent coronary heart disease (CHD). Lower habitual intakes of SFAs,
however, require substitution of other macronutrients to maintain
energy balance. OBJECTIVE: We investigated associations between energy
intake from monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFAs), polyunsaturated fatty
acids (PUFAs), and carbohydrates and risk of CHD while assessing the
potential effect-modifying role of sex and age. Using substitution
models, our aim was to clarify whether energy from unsaturated fatty
acids or carbohydrates should replace energy from SFAs to prevent CHD.
DESIGN: This was a follow-up study in which data from 11 American and
European cohort studies were pooled. The outcome measure was incident
CHD. RESULTS: During 4-10 y of follow-up, 5249 coronary events and
2155 coronary deaths occurred among 344,696 persons. For a 5% lower
energy intake from SFAs and a concomitant higher energy intake from
PUFAs, there was a significant inverse association between PUFAs and
risk of coronary events (hazard ratio: 0.87; 95% CI: 0.77, 0.97); the
hazard ratio for coronary deaths was 0.74 (95% CI: 0.61, 0.89). For a
5% lower energy intake from SFAs and a concomitant higher energy
intake from carbohydrates, there was a modest significant direct
association between carbohydrates and coronary events (hazard ratio:
1.07; 95% CI: 1.01, 1.14); the hazard ratio for coronary deaths was
0.96 (95% CI: 0.82, 1.13). MUFA intake was not associated with CHD. No
effect modification by sex or age was found. CONCLUSION: The
associations suggest that replacing SFAs with PUFAs rather than MUFAs
or carbohydrates prevents CHD over a wide range of intakes.

Publication Types:
Multicenter Study
Research Support, N.I.H., Extramural
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't

PMID: 19211817 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMCID: PMC2676998 [Available on 2010/05/01]
Taka - 09 Jul 2009 06:33 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> 60 GRAMS. This aniti oxidative "supplementation" is far greater than
> that due to pills, which add little to the redox benefit.

Have you ever heard about the lipid peroxidation chain reaction?  And
do you call compounds such as 4-HNE "neutralized free radicals"?  Give
me a break with your meta analysis of cohort studies.  The Kwasniewski
patients should be dropping like flies because of their "PUFA-
antioxidant" deficiencies then ...  So should the south Asians
thriving on saturated fat from coconuts ...  Instead they are all
atherosclerosis free!  This is where you should go doing your cohort
studies, not among the AA-overloaded Americans.  If the PUFAs were
such miracle antioxidants why wouldn't the long lived species
accumulate them?

Taka

> There is pretty good evidence that linoleic acid is mildly
> carcinogenic, and it's known that cancer cells do import it avidly.
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> PMID: 19211817 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> PMCID: PMC2676998 [Available on 2010/05/01]
David - 10 Jul 2009 01:12 GMT
Yes Thomas, you and your peer-reviewed meta-analysis of cohort studies
make Taka's brain hurt and cause him cognitive dissonance.  Please
stop!
Pramesh Rutaji - 10 Jul 2009 01:39 GMT
>>> Oxidized LDL and the PUFA Connection
>> ?J Am Coll Cardiol. 2006 Aug 15;48(4):715-20. Epub 2006 Jul 24. says:
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> cholesterol concentrations; therefore, intake should be reduced to
> prevent coronary heart disease (CHD).

Lowering LDL is used as a surrogate endpoint for lower CHD and has been
found to not be true.  The Vyrotin study using statin drugs combined
with Zetia and tested by measuring the Coronary artery thickness over
time (IMT) was shown to accelerate arterial plaque while lowering LDL.

Additionally, it looks like the meta study doesn't take into account
trans-fats.  Saturated fats, good saturated fats, raise HDL which
decreases cardiovascular events by 3% for every 1 point raised.

> Lower habitual intakes of SFAs,
> however, require substitution of other macronutrients to maintain
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> PMID: 19211817 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> PMCID: PMC2676998 [Available on 2010/05/01]

Signature

Pramesh Rutaji

p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply

David - 11 Jul 2009 20:10 GMT
> Lowering LDL is used as a surrogate endpoint for lower CHD and has been
> found to not be true.  The Vyrotin study using statin drugs combined
> with Zetia and tested by measuring the Coronary artery thickness over
> time (IMT) was shown to accelerate arterial plaque while lowering LDL.

You have no idea what you're talking about.  Even if this study could
be used as evidence against LDL as a causal factor in CAD, it would
not refute the mountains of data accumulated over decades.  This one
study was performed in a group of 720 patients with familial
heterozygous hypercholesterolemia, and their baseline carotid intima
media thickness was very low -- therefore, it's really not surprising
that a significant difference between ezetimibe and ezetimibe/
simvastatin was not seen.

Erroneously generalizing the results of a single study to the
population at large, while ignoring all other research, is the
hallmark of bad science and is what Taka and his ilk do best!
David - 11 Jul 2009 20:14 GMT
On Jul 9, 8:39 pm, Pramesh Rutaji <p297tongue6...@newsguy.com> wrote:

 The Vyrotin study using statin drugs combined
> > with Zetia and tested by measuring the Coronary artery thickness over
> > time (IMT) was shown to accelerate arterial plaque while lowering LDL.

By the way -- "accelerate"??  Completely false.  There was no
significant difference between groups (p = 0.29).

Do your homework before you start spewing this crap all over the net.
Pramesh Rutaji - 12 Jul 2009 05:22 GMT
>  On Jul 9, 8:39 pm, Pramesh Rutaji <p297tongue6...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> By the way -- "accelerate"??  Completely false.  There was no
> significant difference between groups (p = 0.29).

So NO benefit to lowering LDL to 70 or below!  Exactly.  You'll also
find that lowering LDL with statin drugs doesn't increase lifespan.

> Do your homework before you start spewing this crap all over the net.

Calm down.  Some people on the internet won't worship you.  Get over
yourself.  Parrots of medical dogma provide no utility.

Anyone taking Vyrotin will get all the negative effects of such statin
drugs including decreases in memory and cognitive function and a greater
likelihood of dying of accidents or suicide from those mental deficits.

If you want to use lowering LDL to make claims that the drug must
therefore be beneficial, go for it.  Some of us however are actually
concerned with quality of life and lifespan, not drug company profit
margins and want to see real significant results in lowering of
all-cause-mortality and increases in lifespan over placebo, something
that hasn't occurred with statin drugs.

Saturated fats do indeed raise HDL, something that statin drugs have
little effect on.  Raising HDL is more protective than anything you can
do with LDL except increasing particle size and lowering particle count,
something statin drugs do NOT do.  However, if you want to fill yourself
with polyunsaturated veggie oils, go for it .. and enjoy the increase in
cancer rates.

Signature

Pramesh Rutaji

p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply

David - 12 Jul 2009 12:44 GMT
On Jul 12, 12:22 am, Pramesh Rutaji <p297tongue6...@newsguy.com>
wrote:
> Some people on the internet won't worship you.  Get over
> yourself.  Parrots of medical dogma provide no utility.

Worship me?  What?  Oh right -- you're trying to divert attention away
from the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.

> Anyone taking Vyrotin will get all the negative effects of such statin
> drugs including decreases in memory and cognitive function and a greater
> likelihood of dying of accidents or suicide from those mental deficits.

Ehh.......wow.  That's a whole lot of interesting claims.  Got any
data to back up your assertion that there are increased suicides from
statin users?  Didn't think so.

Oh hey, look what we have here -- *decreased* depression in statin
users, and no association with suicide risk:

Arch Intern Med. 2003 Sep 8;163(16):1926-32.
    Lipid-lowering drugs and the risk of depression and suicidal
behavior.
   Yang CC, Jick SS, Jick H.
   BACKGROUND: A possible association between lipid-lowering drug
therapy and psychological well-being remains an issue of debate. To
provide more information, we performed a nested case-control study to
evaluate the effect of lipid-lowering drugs on depression and suicidal
behavior. METHODS: Within the United Kingdom General Practice Research
Database, we identified all cases with newly treated depression
needing a referral or hospitalization and all cases with first-
recorded diagnosis of suicidal behavior between January 1, 1991, and
December 31, 1999, from a study base that comprised all patients who
were aged between 40 and 79 years and who had various exposures of
interest. Each case was matched with up to 4 controls, randomly
selected from the study base, on age, sex, medical practice, calendar
time, and years since enrollment in the General Practice Research
Database. RESULTS: A nested case-control analysis comprised 458 newly
diagnosed cases of depression with 1830 controls, and 105 cases of
suicidal behavior with 420 controls. The adjusted odds ratio of
depression was 0.4 (95% confidence interval, 0.2-0.9) for current
statin use, compared with hyperlipidemic nonuse. The adjusted odds
ratios for other exposures were all around 1.0. None of the adjusted
odds ratios for suicidal behavior were significantly different from
unity. CONCLUSIONS: The use of statins and other lipid-lowering drugs
is not associated with an increased risk of depression or suicide. On
the contrary, individuals with current statin use may have a lower
risk of developing depression, an effect that could be explained by
improved quality of life due to decreased risk of cardiovascular
events or more health consciousness in patients receiving long-term
treatment.
PMID: 12963565

> If you want to use lowering LDL to make claims that the drug must
> therefore be beneficial, go for it.  Some of us however are actually
> concerned with quality of life and lifespan, not drug company profit
> margins and want to see real significant results in lowering of
> all-cause-mortality and increases in lifespan over placebo, something
> that hasn't occurred with statin drugs.

There you go again -- falsely attributing various positions to me, and
then attacking them.  Of *course* HDL and LDL particle size (in
addition to other factors) are also critically important in
atherosclerosis, but that's not the issue I was addressing.
1) you suggested that the vytorin study showed that lowering LDL does
not affect CAD -- completely false
2) you said that the vytorin study showed an "acceleration" of
arterial plaque as LDL was lowered -- again, completely false.

I don't care if anyone buys vytorin, statins, fish oil or drinks
coconut oil with every meal, for that matter.   I was simply
correcting the garbage spewing from your keyboard.
Taka - 12 Jul 2009 17:47 GMT
For those clinical trial lovers some recent stuff:

Am J Cardiol. 2009 Jul 1;104(1):29-35. Epub 2009 May 4.

Safety and efficacy of achieving very low low-density lipoprotein
cholesterol levels with rosuvastatin 40 mg daily (from the ASTEROID
Study).

Wiviott SD, Mohanavelu S, Raichlen JS, Cain VA, Nissen SE, Libby P.
Cardiovascular Division, Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard
Medical School, Boston, MA, USA.

Clinical trial evidence supports the use of intensive statin therapy
for patients with coronary artery disease. High doses of potent
statins have shown the greatest clinical benefit, but concerns persist
regarding the efficacy and safety of achieving very low levels of low-
density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol. We grouped patients treated
with 40 mg of rosuvastatin daily by the LDL cholesterol achieved
according to previous work (<40, 40 to <60, 60 to <80, 80 to <100, and
> or =100 mg/dl) and by National Cholesterol Education Program targets
(<70, 70 to <100, and > or =100 mg/dl) in A Study to Evaluate the
Effect of Rosuvastatin on Intravascular Ultrasound-Derived Coronary
Atheroma Burden (ASTEROID). The rates of key safety end points,
including death, hemorrhagic stroke, and liver and muscle enzyme
elevations, and key efficacy end points (atheroma burden) were
compared using chi-square testing or Fisher's exact testing. The
analysis included 471 patients who had had their LDL cholesterol
measured at 3 months, of whom 340 (72.2%) had LDL cholesterol of <70
mg/dl, exhibiting excellent achievement of even the most stringent
guideline-based goals. Of these 471 subjects, 192 (40.8%) had LDL
cholesterol > or =40 mg/dl but <60 mg/dl, and 57 (12.1%) had LDL
cholesterol <40 mg/dl. Adverse events occurred infrequently during the
trial, and no pattern appeared relating the frequency of any adverse
event to the achieved LDL cholesterol. Similarly, the on-treatment
atheroma volume, change in atheroma volume, and high percentage of
subjects with atheroma regression did not differ by the achieved LDL
cholesterol. In conclusion, although the power to detect such changes
was limited, these data showed no clear relation between the LDL
cholesterol achieved by intensive statin therapy with rosuvastatin and
adverse effects. Atheroma regression occurred in most patients and was
not linked to the LDL cholesterol achieved.
PMID: 19576317

and a discussion on this better than I could ever make:

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/07/may-2009-asteroid-destroys-lipid.html

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2006/11/cholesterol-bogeyman.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/12/cholesterol-and-son-of-j-lit.html
David - 15 Jul 2009 01:30 GMT
> For those clinical trial lovers some recent stuff:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> cholesterol levels with rosuvastatin 40 mg daily (from the ASTEROID
> Study).

The sample was too small to detect differences in atheroma regression
between groups.  The "less than 70 LDL" group had 340 patients, while
the "greater than 100 LDL" group only had 28 patients.

The more important news here is that *all* statin groups achieved
atheroma regression.

And hey, this is interesting:
"patients tolerated the treatment very well, and no relation was found
between the achieved LDL cholesterol and adverse events."

That's amazing!  Based on some of the unfounded claims in this thread,
most of them should have committed suicide!
Taka - 15 Jul 2009 02:14 GMT
> The more important news here is that *all* statin groups achieved
> atheroma regression.

Independent of the statin's LDL lowering effects.  Yes, statins can
cause atheroma regression but the mechanism is not via their LDL
lowering activity.  Get educated here:

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/07/may-2009-asteroid-destroys-lipid.html
(plenty of peer review references if you can see them)

Statins boost stem cells and possibly trigger tissue repair processes
but in a dangerous way.  They also damage muscles what "could" be used
in bodybuilding because the damage actually grows the muscles
(PGF2a ...).  But this is playing with a fire ...

Taka
David - 15 Jul 2009 04:03 GMT
> > The more important news here is that *all* statin groups achieved
> > atheroma regression.
>
> Independent of the statin's LDL lowering effects.  Yes, statins can
> cause atheroma regression but the mechanism is not via their LDL
> lowering activity.

No, not independent of their LDL lowering effects.  Statins have anti-
inflammatory effects and relatively small HDL-raising effects

> http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/07/may-2009-asteroid-dest...
> (plenty of peer review references if you can see them)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Taka

Don't just "parrot" the discussion of some hacks from an anti-statin
web site.  Present your evidence that this mechanism is responsible
for the regression of atherosclerotic plaques.
Taka - 15 Jul 2009 05:44 GMT
> > > The more important news here is that *all* statin groups achieved
> > > atheroma regression.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> No, not independent of their LDL lowering effects.  Statins have anti-
> inflammatory effects and relatively small HDL-raising effects

You don't need anti-inflammatory effects if you reduce arachidonic
acid in your body.  LDL can be loaded either with linoleic or oleic
acid.  Your statin propaganda only concerns the linoleic acid loaded
one, which gets oxidized and then scavenged by macrophages which turn
into your atheroma plaques.  The one without linoleic or alpha-
linolenic acid is a safe LDL which prevents cancer, depressions,
infections and is otherwise beneficial.

Do you know that most physicians get financial reward from the drug
companies for luring new patients into taking the statins?  Are you
one of them?  Once on statins they can never stop because their
cholesterol would skyrocket!  So many benefits of the Omega-6 fatty
acids for the medical industries ....

Taka
David - 16 Jul 2009 00:36 GMT
> > > > The more important news here is that *all* statin groups achieved
> > > > atheroma regression.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> one, which gets oxidized and then scavenged by macrophages which turn
> into your atheroma plaques.  

You're missing the point -- statins work, and they work via reduction
of LDL (among other mechanisms).

No one is claiming that statins are *necessary* to prevent heart
disease, only that they are a simple and highly effective tool in the
anti-heart disease arsenal.

> Do you know that most physicians get financial reward from the drug
> companies for luring new patients into taking the statins?

Oooh "luring"......now that's rich.  Do you know that many of the web
sites you quote as "evidence" get financial rewards for selling books,
supplements and candy bars and by scaring people away from medications
so that they will buy their products instead?

> Are you one of them?

I wondered how long it would take you to get around to this.  And the
answer, by the way, is no -- we don't prescribe statins in
dermatology.

> Once on statins they can never stop because their cholesterol would skyrocket!

So now you're saying that there's some kind of "rebound effect"
causing a patient's cholesterol to go higher than pre-treatment values
once they discontinue a statin?  Once again, a wild and completely
false claim with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

As usual, all fluff and no evidence........well, at least you're
predictable.
Taka - 16 Jul 2009 10:00 GMT
and here is some opinion that oxysterols may be actually protective
against atherosclerosis!

"I want to point out that dairy products were not unique to the Masai.
All manner of beasts were milked in Europe, as elsewhere. Like in the
Masai in recent times, most of the milk was consumed after it had been
allowed to go sour, a product we would identify as yogurt. This is not
the same as the yogurt currently marketed in the western world. Cream
taken from the soured milk was used to make butter, and butter has
good keeping properties. Simple churning of fresh cream gives the
equivalent of whipped cream, it does not give butter. Cream that has
been allowed to "ripen" will show separation of fat and water when
churned. This was practiced throughout the world until the advent of
refrigeration at the beginning of the 20th century when food handling
techniques were changed in the developed world.

There are a number of consequences in allowing milk to sour. One is
that lactose is broken down so that this product can be consumed by
people with a mild degree of lactose intolerance. I suspect that mild
lactose intolerance is as common in the Masai as it is in other parts
of Africa, but the Masai must be able to tolerate sour milk which is a
part of their basic diet. Sour milk is commonly consumed to this day
in many parts of Africa.

Another consequence of leaving milk fat to sour is that the
cholesterol contained therein undergoes some spontaneous oxidation,
forming oxysterols. Oxysterols have the property of preventing
crystallization of cholesterol from supersaturated solution. I believe
it is the crystallization of cholesterol from the plasma lipids that
are deposited in the arterial intima that renders that cholesterol
atherogenic; and that adequate oxysterols in the diet could prevent
that from happening.

I should add that meat has been preserved for millenia by allowing it
to dry in the air.The same oxidative changes occur in the cholesterol
in meat

In my view, the critical change in the human diet with relevance to
atherogenesis was the alteration in food handling techniques allowed
by refrigeration, introduced in the developed world early in the 20th
century. This inadvertently largely eliminated the spontaneous
generation of oxysterols in foods of animal origin, removing these
compounds from the human diet."

SOURCE: http://www.thincs.org/discuss.cordainagain.htm
Taka - 16 Jul 2009 16:46 GMT
J Clin Epidemiol. 1998 Jun;51(6):443-60.

The questionable role of saturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids in
cardiovascular disease.

Ravnskov U.

A fat diet, rich in saturated fatty acids (SFA) and low in
polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA), is said to be an important cause
of atherosclerosis and cardiovascular diseases (CVD). The evidence for
this hypothesis was sought by reviewing studies of the direct link
between dietary fats and atherosclerotic vascular disease in human
beings. The review included ecological, dynamic population, cross-
sectional, cohort, and case-control studies, as well as controlled,
randomized trials of the effect of fat reduction alone. The positive
ecological correlations between national intakes of total fat (TF) and
SFA and cardiovascular mortality found in earlier studies were absent
or negative in the larger, more recent studies. Secular trends of
national fat consumption and mortality from coronary heart disease
(CHD) in 18-35 countries (four studies) during different time periods
diverged from each other as often as they coincided. In cross-
sectional studies of CHD and atherosclerosis, one group of studies
(Bantu people vs. Caucasians) were supportive; six groups of studies
(West Indians vs. Americans, Japanese, and Japanese migrants vs.
Americans, Yemenite Jews vs. Yemenite migrants; Seminole and Pima
Indians vs. Americans, Seven Countries) gave partly supportive, partly
contradictive results; in seven groups of studies (Navajo Indians vs.
Americans; pure vegetarians vs. lacto-ovo-vegetarians and non-
vegetarians, Masai people vs. Americans, Asiatic Indians vs. non-
Indians, north vs. south Indians, Indian migrants vs. British
residents, Geographic Study of Atherosclerosis) the findings were
contradictory. Among 21 cohort studies of CHD including 28 cohorts,
CHD patients had eaten significantly more SFA in three cohorts and
significantly less in one cohort than had CHD-free individuals; in 22
cohorts no significant difference was noted. In three cohorts, CHD
patients had eaten significantly more PUFA, in 24 cohorts no
significant difference was noted. In three of four cohort studies of
atherosclerosis, the vascular changes were unassociated with SFA or
PUFA; in one study they were inversely related to TF. No significant
differences in fat intake were noted in six case-control studies of
CVD patients and CVD-free controls; and neither total or CHD mortality
were lowered in a meta-analysis of nine controlled, randomized dietary
trials with substantial reductions of dietary fats, in six trials
combined with addition of PUFA. The harmful effect of dietary SFA and
the protective effect of dietary PUFA on atherosclerosis and CVD are
questioned.
PMID: 9635993
Taka - 17 Jul 2009 06:52 GMT
FROM: http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/hurtful-food-saturated-fat-vs-polyunsaturat
ed-fat.html


Saturated fats are bad? Where is the evidence? I've been studying
nutrition since 1977 and have never found evidence that there is
evidence that saturated fats cause clogged arteries. Yes, I know.
Mainstream nutrition science has been telling us for 50 years to
consume less saturated fat and more unsaturated fat. Well, if
consensus of opinion is the proper test for truth, I'm in BIG trouble
because I've been consuming a diet high in saturated fat for about a
quarter century. This includes between two and three pounds of butter
a week plus cheese, yoghurt, cottege cheese, sour cream, beef, bacon,
and eggs. So why haven't my arteries clogged? Because I consume
adequate supportive nutrition. One can't consume bakery goods, chips,
soda pop, candy bars, and all those other manufactured foods and
expect to process saturated fat properly. Rather than go on and on
about this I'll let Dr. Roger J. Williams explain the matter.

Dave Brown

Book excerpt: (my thanks to Dr. Donald R. Davis, Jr. Ph.D. University
of Texas at Austin, for permission to use this material in my
Nutrition Education Project).

The following paragraphs are from pages 81-83 of Nutrition Against
Disease (1972) by Roger J. Williams, PhD. More information about Dr.
Williams and his work is available at www.doctoryourself.com. I
encourage you to read the references and notes. They are every bit as
interesting as the associated text. Dave Brown

No discussion of heart disease would be complete without mention of
the question of saturated fats. It has come to be almost an orthodox
position that if one wishes to protect oneself against heart disease,
one should avoid eating saturated (animal) fats. While this idea may
not be entirely in error, it is misleading in its emphasis. The
evidence shows that high fat consumption, when accompanied by plenty
of the essential nutrients which all the cells need, does not cause
atherosclerosis or heart disease.
Rats have been used extensively to study the effects of diet on
atherosclerosis. Under ordinary dietary conditions the inclusion of
saturated fats in their diet will consistently promote the deposition
of cholesterol in their arteries.(50) For 285 days rats were fed a
diet containing 61.6 percent animal fat, but highly superior with
respect to protein, mineral, and vitamin content, without producing
any pathological changes in the aorta or in the heart.(51) The animals
did, to be sure, become obese, as much as three to four times their
normal weight. Animals fed vegetable fats at the same level fared
essentially no better and no worse. These findings were based upon
extensive long-term experiments at Yale, using a total of 600 rats,
which were observed for as long as two years. There were no findings
suggestive that either high animal fat diets or high vegetable fat
diets were conducive under these conditions to atherosclerosis.
These animals represented an extreme condition, since 81 percent of
their energy came from fats. Their diets otherwise were extremely
good. The protein was of high quality (casin) and was kept at a high
level (20 percent); the vitamin levels were double those ordinarily
used in this laboratory. The Yale findings were corroborated almost a
decade later (1965) at Tufts University School of Medicine.(52)
That cardiovascular disease is not associated with high fat diets is
also shown by comparison study of matched groups of twenty-eight
railwaymen from North India and twenty-eight from Southern India.(53)
The consumption of fats, mostly of animal origin, was ten times higher
among the North Indians than the South Indians, but there were no
significant differences between their lipid and cholesterol levels.
Among the South Indian population, the incidence of heart disease is
said to be fifteen times as high as among the North Indians where the
fat content of the diet is ten times higher. Dietary factors are
doubtless very important in connection with the incidence of heart
disease, but fat is only one factor, and other dietary factors are
considerably more important.
This is also corroborated by a study of 400 Masai men in Tanganyika.
(54) In spite of the fact that the diet of these men is almost
exclusively milk and meat (consumption of whole blood is relatively
rare), both of which contain much fat and plenty of cholesterol, the
cholesterol levels in the blood of the Masai are extraordinarily low,
and there was "no evidence of arteriosclerotic heart disease." It
should be noted that a diet containing large quantities of meat is
free from "naked calories," and is certain to supply an assortment of
amino acids, minerals, and vitamins in liberal amounts. Though the
Masai have other health disorders - many of infective origin - they
probably escape heart disease because their body cells are furnished
with an environment that is adequate enough to protect their hearts
and blood vessels.
A corollary of the notion that saturated fats are archvillains is the
idea that one should eat substantial amounts of polyunsaturated fats.
(The phrase "polyunsaturated fatty acids" has become virtually
synonymous with "heart protection" in both popular and orthodox
medical thinking.) While everyone should have unsaturated fats in his
diet, their presence does not by any means afford adequate protection
against atherosclerosis and heart disease. The current consumption of
polyunsaturated fatty acids in the USA is higher than it has ever
been, yet this does not curb heart disease.(55) There are many reasons
on which to base our conclusion that other factors are far more
important.(56) When other deficiencies are eliminated, the amount of
unsaturated fat is of secondary importance. If there is plenty of
vitamin B6 in the diet, fat metabolism tends to take care of itself.
I have said a good deal about vitamin B6, but I do not mean to imply
that it is, by itself, the answer to heart disease. All the nutrients
contribute to the prevention of heart trouble.

References and notes:
50. Thomas, W.A., and Hartroft, W.S. "Myocardial infarction in rats
fed diets containing high fat, cholesterol, thiouracil, and sodium
cholate." Circulation, 19:65, 1959; Taylor, C. B., et al. "Fatal
myocardial infarction in rhesus monkeys with diet-induced hyper-
cholesterolemia." Circulation, 20;975, 1959.
In the above experiments, the investigators found that prolonged
feeding of butter or lard to rats resulted in hyperlipemia and finally
coronary thrombosis and myocardial infarction with lesions similar to
those found in human beings. The diets of these animals were regarded
as otherwise "normal" in respect to their intake of supplementary
vitamins, minerals, and amino acids. Other data, however (see
reference note 52 below) demonstrate that when fat and cholesterol (or
animal protein) are increased in the diet, certain nutrients
(particularly pyridoxine) must be increased above "average" or
"normal" requirements.

51. Barboriak, J.J., et al. "Influence of high-fat diets on growth and
development of obesity in the albino rat." J. Nutr., 64: 241, 1958.

52. Naimi, S., et al. "Cardiovascular lesions, blood lipids,
coagulation and fibrinolysis in butter-induced obesity in the rat." J.
Nutr., 86:325, 1965.
In this more recent study, Naimi and his colleagues were directly
interested in the effects of a high fat butter-induced obesity on the
cardiovascular system of seventeen male Wistar albino rats. Butter
constituted 65 percent of the total calories, with 20 percent protein
(casin) and generous vitamin and mineral supplements equal to if not
superior to those used in the above-mentioned Yale study.
Under the conditions of their experiment, these investigators found
that a high fat butter diet causing obesity in rats did not produce
changes in blood cholesterol nor result in cardiovascular lesions, as
other data had led them to expect. The authors note, "The absence of
such adverse changes, despite, the development of gross obesity in
these animals may be significant, since both obesity and animal fats
have been considered to be associated with lipemia and vascular
lesions. It may be suggested that other dietary factors might have
protected the experimental group against such changes. Yet, even if
this happens to be the case, it should not detract from the
significance of the fact that large amounts of saturated fat and
obesity are not necessarily associated with lipemia and vascular
lesions."
We are confident that other dietary factors did protect these rats,
and that only in the absence of sufficient supportive nutrients are
obesity and high fat and high cholesterol diets associated with
atherosclerosis and heart disease in the human population.

53. Malhotra, S.L., "Serum Lipids, dietary factors and ischemic heart
disease," Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 20:462, 1967.
See also Malhotra, S.L., "Geographical aspects of acute myocardial
infarction in India, with special reference to the pattern of diet and
eating." Brit. Heart J., 29:777, 1967.

54. Mann, G.V., et al. "Cardiovascular disease in the Masai." J.
Atheroscler. Res., 4:289, 1964.
In an extensive review of the various peoples of the earth who have
little or no atherosclerosis and are virtually free of heart disease,
Lowenstein found that the fat intake ranged from 21 grams per day to
as much as 355 grams per day (Lowenstein, F.W. Am. J. Clin. Nutr.,
15:175, 1964). In both the Somalis and the Samburus of East Africa,
the diet is from 60 to 65 percent fat (animal), and yet they are
nearly free from atherosclerosis and heart attacks. While it might be
argued that ethnic differences are involved here, population groups of
wide ethnic variation have been reported who subsist on high fat, high
cholesterol, high caloric diets while remaining virtually free of
coronary heart disease.
In the text we have mentioned the report of Mann and his colleagues of
the Masai tribe who subsist on a diet excessively high in butter fat
(and cholesterol), the fat constituting as much as 60 percent of the
total calories consumed, yet are virtually free of cardiovascular
disease. Gsell and Mayer report that the semiisolated peoples of the
Loetschental valley in the Valaisian Alps of Switzerland habitually
eat a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol, high in calories,
but evidence low serum cholesterol values and little cardiovascular
disorders (Gsell, D., and Mayer, J. "Low blood cholesterol associated
with high calorie, high saturated fat intake in a Swiss Alpine village
population." Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 10:471, 1962).
Stout and his coworkers report that an Italian immigrant colony in
Roseta, Pennsylvania, consumes diets much richer than other Americans,
yet have less than half the incidence of coronary heart disease (J. A.
M. A., 188:845, 1964).
In a survey study of 27,000 Kenya East Indians, A. D. Charters and B.
P. Arya report (Lancet, 1:288, 1960) that the animal fat consumption
was relatively high among the Punjabi nonvegetarians and relatively
low among the vegetarian Gujeratis, but the percentage of heart
disease morbidity "is closely proportional to that of the population."
The statistics of their survey, conclude these investigators, suggest
that in the case of the East Indian population in Kenya, "the
ingestion of animal fats is not an important etiological factor" in
heart disease morbidity. Interestingly, besides their low animal fat
diet, the Gujerati vegetarians consume foods rich in polyunsaturated
oils, as groundnut, cottonseed, and simsim oils, yet were not
"protected from coronary occlusion by a high intake of unsaturated
fatty acids."
In an epidemiological study of coronary heart disease in a general
population of 106,000 Americans conducted over a one year period, W.J.
Zukel and his coworkers found the highly provocative fact that farmers
showed a much lower incidence of coronary heart disease than males of
other groups, in spite of the fact that there were no substantial
differences in their mean caloric intake or fat and cholesterol
consumption (Zukel, W. J., et al. Am. J. Pub. Health, 49:1630. 1959).
In an epidemiological study of two Polynesian island groups, Hunter
compared the diet, body build, blood pressure, and serum cholesterol
levels of the tradition-following Atiu and Mitiaro with the more
Europeanized Raroyongan Neighbors (Hunter, J.D. Fed. Proc., 21, Supp.
11:36, 1962). The Atiu-Mitiaro people live on a diet low in calories
and protein but rich in highly saturated coconut fat. Hunter found
that 25 percent of Rarotongans (males) suffered from hypertension as
compared to only 10 percent of the Atiu-Mitiaro males. While the serum
cholesterol levels of the saturated coconut fat-eating Atiu-Mitiaro
males were higher (as high as European males), Hunter was unable to
discover by electrocardiographic readings any tendency to coronary
heart disease.
Finally we turn to the early primitive Eskimo who subsisted almost
totally on an excessively high animal fat diet. In an early 1927 issue
of the Journal of the American Medical Association (May), in an
article titled "Health of a Carnivorous Race," Dr. William Thomas
reports that of 142 adults between the ages of forty and sixty who
were completely examined, he found no unusual signs of vascular or
renal morbidity, and all indications were that diseases of the
cardiovascular system were not prevalent among these people. This is
in agreement with other reports of scientists of the primitive Eskimo
(e.g. C. Lieb. J. A. M. A., July, 1926; V. Stefannsson, in his book
Cancer: Disease of Civilization, p. 76; I. M. Rabinowitch, Canad. Med.
Assoc. J., 31:487, 1936; W. Price, Nutrition and Physical
Degeneration. New York: Hoeber, 1939).
It is clear, therefore, that adult males of a widely differing ethnic
stock can subsist on a high fat, high cholesterol, high caloric diet,
and yet remain relatively free of cardiovascular disorders. Even if
prevailing views are to the contrary, I think that the evidence points
strongly toward the conclusion that the nutritional environment of the
body cells - involving minerals, amino acids, and vitamins - is
crucial, and that the amount of fat or cholesterol consumed is
relatively inconsequential.

55. Antar, M.A., et al. "Changes in retail market food supplies in the
United States . . . ." Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 14:169, 1964
Taka - 15 Jul 2009 02:15 GMT
Another happy high cholesterol guy:

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/
David - 15 Jul 2009 04:06 GMT
> Another happy high cholesterol guy:
>
> http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/

Wow, a guy selling his books and low-carb chocolate bars!!!  Now
that's a credible source!!!
Taka - 16 Jul 2009 09:56 GMT
> > Another happy high cholesterol guy:
>
> >http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/
>
> Wow, a guy selling his books and low-carb chocolate bars!!!  Now
> that's a credible source!!!

This is not about selling books and chocolate bars you dermatologist.
Here is your peer review evidence how lard protects the blueprint of
life DNA while sugar (and possibly statins) damages it:

Free Radic Res. 2003 Sep;37(9):947-56.

Effect of increased intake of dietary animal fat and fat energy on
oxidative damage, mutation frequency, DNA adduct level and DNA repair
in rat colon and liver.

Vogel U, Danesvar B, Autrup H, Risom L, Weimann A, Poulsen HE, Møller
P, Loft S, Wallin H, Dragsted LO.
National Institute of Occupational Health, Lersø Parkallé 105,
DK-2100, Copenhagen, Denmark.

The effect of high dietary intake of animal fat and an increased fat
energy intake on colon and liver genotoxicity and on markers of
oxidative damage and antioxidative defence in colon, liver and plasma
was investigated in Big Blue rats. The rats were fed ad libitum with
semi-synthetic feed supplemented with 0, 3, 10 or 30% w/w lard. After
3 weeks, the mutation frequency, DNA repair gene expression, DNA
damage and oxidative markers were determined in liver, colon and
plasma. The mutation frequency of the lambda gene cII did not increase
with increased fat or energy intake in colon or liver. The DNA-adduct
level measured by 32P-postlabelling decreased in both liver and colon
with increased fat intake. In liver, this was accompanied by a 2-fold
increase of the mRNA level of nucleotide excision repair (NER) gene
ERCC1. In colon, a non-statistically significant increase in the ERCC1
mRNA levels was observed. Intake of lard fat resulted in increased
ascorbate synthesis and affected markers of oxidative damage to
proteins in liver cytosol, but not in plasma. The effect was observed
at all lard doses and was not dose-dependent. However, no evidence of
increased oxidative DNA damage was found in liver, colon, or urine.
Thus, lard intake at the expense of other nutrients and a large
increase in the fat energy consumption affects the redox state locally
in the liver cytosol, but does not induce DNA-damage, systemic
oxidative stress or a dose-dependent increase in mutation frequency in
rat colon or liver.
PMID: 14670002

Cancer Res. 2002 Aug 1;62(15):4339-45.

A sucrose-rich diet induces mutations in the rat colon.

Dragsted LO, Daneshvar B, Vogel U, Autrup HN, Wallin H, Risom L,
Møller P, Mølck AM, Hansen M, Poulsen HE, Loft S.
Institute of Food Safety and Nutrition, Division of Biochemical and
Molecular Toxicology, The Danish Veterinary and Food Administration,
DK-2860 Søborg, Denmark.

A sucrose-rich diet has repeatedly been observed to have
cocarcinogenic actions in the colon and liver of rats and to increase
the number of aberrant crypt foci in rat colon. To investigate whether
sucrose-rich diets might directly increase the genotoxic response in
the rat colon or liver, we have added sucrose to the diet of Big Blue
rats, a strain of Fischer rats carrying 40 copies of the lambda-phage
on chromosome 4. Dietary sucrose was provided to the rats for 3 weeks
at four dose levels including the background level in the purified
diet [3.4% (control), 6.9%, 13.8%, or 34.5%] without affecting the
overall energy and carbohydrate intake. We observed a dose-dependent
increase in the mutation frequency at the cII site in the colonic
mucosa with increased sucrose levels, reaching a 129% increase at the
highest dose level. This would indicate a direct or indirect genotoxic
effect of a sucrose-rich diet. No significant increase in mutations
was observed in the liver. To seek an explanation for this finding, a
variety of parameters were examined representing different mechanisms,
including increased oxidative stress, changes in oxidative defense,
effects on DNA repair, or changes in the background levels of DNA
adducts. Sucrose did not increase the number of DNA strand breaks or
oxidized bases assessed as endonuclease III-sensitive sites or 8-
oxodeoxyguanosine in colon or liver. DNA repair capacity as determined
by expression of the rERCC1 or rOGG1 genes was not increased in colon
or liver, but the background level of DNA adducts (I-compounds) as
determined by (32)P postlabeling was significantly decreased in colon.
This decrease in colon I-compounds correlated inversely with both
mutation frequency and ERCC1 DNA repair gene expression. Dietary
sucrose did not change liver apoptosis or cell turnover as determined
by the terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase-mediated biotinylated
deoxyuridine triphosphate nick end labeling assay and proliferating
cell nuclear antigen. An increase in liver ascorbate was also
observed, whereas oxidative damage was not observed in proteins or
lipids in liver cytosol or in blood plasma. We conclude that a sucrose-
rich diet directly or indirectly increases the mutation frequency in
rat colon in a dose-dependent manner and concomitantly decreases the
level of background DNA adducts, without a direct effect on the
expression of major DNA repair enzyme systems. We also conclude that
an oxidative mechanism for this effect of sucrose is unlikely. This is
the first demonstration of a genotoxic action of increased dietary
sucrose in vivo. Both sucrose intake and colon cancer rates are high
in the Western world, and our present results call for an examination
of a possible direct relationship between the two.
PMID: 12154038
David - 17 Jul 2009 14:04 GMT
> Here is your peer review evidence

Well, at least you've implicitly conceded your false assertions
regarding statin medications.

I wouldn't argue that a person who eats a moderate to low calorie diet
(or who eats a higher calorie diet but expends a lot of energy through
exercise) and avoids abdominal obesity, while eating plenty of whole
foods and avoiding trans fats, could be quite healthy even with a
relatively higher percentage of certain saturated fats.
Susan - 12 Jul 2009 01:03 GMT
> You have no idea what you're talking about.  Even if this study could
> be used as evidence against LDL as a causal factor in CAD, it would
> not refute the mountains of data accumulated over decades.

The mountains of data accumulated over decades do not support LDL as
causal in CVD.  It's a marker of endocrine disruption, just one of
several.  And it's the least predictive of all lipid markers for CVD.

Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they
don't *cause* CVD.  As it turns out, the high insulin levels caused by
high carb consumption raise LDL because high insulin levels inhibit
adrenal steroidogenesis, so your body makes more LDL available to
protect you.

LDL is what all of our adrenal steroids, including sex hormones,
electrolyte balancing hormones and cortisol, stress hormone are made
from.  Your body raises LDL when you have a need for more of these
hormones.  LDL is essential to health.  If you have low TGLs and high
HDL, it doesn't matter how high your LDL is, it will tend to be the
large, bouyant, fluffy type that doesn't bode ill.

Susan
David - 12 Jul 2009 12:19 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The mountains of data accumulated over decades do not support LDL as
> causal in CVD.

I don't know what data you've been reading, but it's not the "peer
reviewed published" kind.

> Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they
> don't *cause* CVD.

Yes, they do.  What *have* you been reading?  Small, dense LDL
particles are more atherogenic because they are better able to
penetrate the endothelium of blood vessels and be deposited in
atherosclerotic plaques.

You can state that elevated LDL is a form of endocrine disruption,
*and* it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis.  The two statements
are not mutually exclusive.
Taka - 12 Jul 2009 16:22 GMT
> > x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I don't know what data you've been reading, but it's not the "peer
> reviewed published" kind.

Your "peer review" cherry picked stuff.  There are also plenty of
"peer review" studies against lowering cholesterol particularly with
the statin drugs at the following sites:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/index.html
http://www.thincs.org/

I prefer the "peer review" studies which bring something new
mechanistically (based on the original experimental work and not some
dubious questionnaires) which are sadly in minority compared to the
"studies" parroting the current dogmas.  There are many stupid people
becoming researchers these days who can relatively safely and
effortlessly advance their careers by just being good parrots.  There
is also some quantum mechanics in the way how most of the people think
and in what they cannot comprehend, ever heard about the 100 monkeys
experiment?

Taka
Taka - 12 Jul 2009 17:57 GMT
Some more non-peer reviewed reading with references to peer-reviewed
literature on the topic:

http://www.biblelife.org/saturated_fat.htm
David - 14 Jul 2009 00:39 GMT
> Some more non-peer reviewed reading with references to peer-reviewed
> literature on the topic:
>
> http://www.biblelife.org/saturated_fat.htm

Well hey, everybody knows you can trust health information from a web
site that has an "Evolution Is Dead" banner at the bottom!!
David - 15 Jul 2009 00:57 GMT
>   There are also plenty of
> "peer review" studies against lowering cholesterol particularly with
> the statin drugs at the following sites:
>
> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/index.html
> http://www.thincs.org/

All I see on those sites is book reviews, movie reviews and lots of
propaganda.  No peer reviewed literature or studies.  What a surprise!

> ever heard about the 100 monkeys
> experiment?
> Taka

The only monkey I know goes by the nickname "Taka".
David - 15 Jul 2009 00:57 GMT
>   There are also plenty of
> "peer review" studies against lowering cholesterol particularly with
> the statin drugs at the following sites:
>
> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/index.html
> http://www.thincs.org/

All I see on those sites is book reviews, movie reviews and lots of
propaganda.  No peer reviewed literature or studies.  What a surprise!

> ever heard about the 100 monkeys
> experiment?
> Taka

The only monkey I know goes by the nickname "Taka".
Susan - 13 Jul 2009 21:41 GMT
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I don't know what data you've been reading, but it's not the "peer
> reviewed published" kind.

As a matter of fact, that's all I typically read.

>> Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they
>> don't *cause* CVD.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> penetrate the endothelium of blood vessels and be deposited in
> atherosclerotic plaques.

I said that LDL is not the cause. What you describe is an effect of over
all metabolic disorder.  That's a drug target, a surrogate for actual
useful prevention.

> You can state that elevated LDL is a form of endocrine disruption,
> *and* it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis.  The two statements
> are not mutually exclusive.

LDL is not "bad" cholesterol, and if you lower it without understanding
why your body is raising it, you are making a big mess, health wise.

Susan
David - 15 Jul 2009 01:12 GMT
> >> Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they
> >> don't *cause* CVD.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> all metabolic disorder.  That's a drug target, a surrogate for actual
> useful prevention.

You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or-
white thinking.  Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality
of atherogenesis, does not mean that LDL is not a critical causal
component of atherogenesis.  In fact, it is, and this is more than
well-established.

Or let's put it this way -- please reveal your soon-to-be Nobel Prize-
winning mechanistic theory of atherosclerotic plaque formation which
does *not* involve LDL cholesterol at any point in the chain of
events.

> > You can state that elevated LDL is a form of endocrine disruption,
> > *and* it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis.  The two statements
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan

I never called LDL "bad" in and of itself.  I said it is a causal
factor in atherosclerosis.  An obese person eating a terrible diet can
reduce his risk of heart attack by lowering his LDL with a statin or
other medication, and/or he can reduce his risk by losing weight,
exercising, and/or eating a healthy whole-foods diet (choosing from
various macronutrient ratios).  Again, these factors of risk reduction
are not mutually exclusive.

Just because a person can successfully reduce risk by dietary and/or
lifestyle modifications does not mean that statins don't work, or that
LDL is not causally involved in atherosclerosis!
Susan - 15 Jul 2009 01:51 GMT
> You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or-
> white thinking.  Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality
> of atherogenesis, does not mean that LDL is not a critical causal
> component of atherogenesis.  In fact, it is, and this is more than
> well-established.

No, it isn't as a cause.  And the public and medical profession's
acceptance of the term "bad cholesterol" is absolutely scandalous.

> I never called LDL "bad" in and of itself.  I said it is a causal
> factor in atherosclerosis.

And I say it isn't.  In fact, if you look at nation's LDL levels and
mortality from CVD, some of the highest LDL averages have the lowest
incidence of CVD.  The pan Asian study proved that LDL is the worst of
all lipid predictors of CVD.  It's a marker, not a cause.  The fact that
VLDL can become atherogenic makes it a factor in a process, but not a
cause.

 > An obese person eating a terrible diet can
> reduce his risk of heart attack by lowering his LDL with a statin or
> other medication, and/or he can reduce his risk by losing weight,
> exercising, and/or eating a healthy whole-foods diet (choosing from
> various macronutrient ratios).  Again, these factors of risk reduction
> are not mutually exclusive.

A person eating a low carb, antioxidant, high fat diet can prevent CVD
even with high LDL.

> Just because a person can successfully reduce risk by dietary and/or
> lifestyle modifications does not mean that statins don't work, or that
> LDL is not causally involved in atherosclerosis!

Statins don't work for most people, and where they do work, they're
unnecessarily risky.

Susan
David - 15 Jul 2009 03:59 GMT
> > You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or-
> > white thinking.  Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No, it isn't as a cause.  And the public and medical profession's
> acceptance of the term "bad cholesterol" is absolutely scandalous.

Just holding your breath like a little girl and saying "no it isn't!"
in the face of overwhelming evidence isn't going to cut it.

I'm still waiting to hear your theory of atherosclerotic plaque
formation that does not involve LDL.

> A person eating a low carb, antioxidant, high fat diet can prevent CVD
> even with high LDL.

Yes, and some people can smoke 3 packs a day for 60 years and never
get lung cancer.  So does this mean that cigarrette smoking is not a
cause of lung cancer?  You really need to step back and take an
objective look at your reasoning.

> > Just because a person can successfully reduce risk by dietary and/or
> > lifestyle modifications does not mean that statins don't work, or that
> > LDL is not causally involved in atherosclerosis!
>
> Statins don't work for most people

Really?  On what basis do you make that claim?  Certainly not the peer
reviewed literature that you *claim* to read.

> and where they do work, they're
> unnecessarily risky.

Another value judgement not based on evidence.  You obviously have a
strong emotional bias against statin drugs.  So much for objectivity!
Susan - 15 Jul 2009 15:02 GMT
>>> You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or-
>>> white thinking.  Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I'm still waiting to hear your theory of atherosclerotic plaque
> formation that does not involve LDL.

I'm still waiting for proof that LDL cholesterol causes CVD.

Not that it gets recruited, that it's the cause.

Susan
David - 16 Jul 2009 00:07 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Susan

You really don't even know the first thing about mechanisms of
atherosclerosis, do you.  That's why you keep dodging the question.
David - 15 Jul 2009 01:12 GMT
> >> Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they
> >> don't *cause* CVD.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> all metabolic disorder.  That's a drug target, a surrogate for actual
> useful prevention.

You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or-
white thinking.  Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality
of atherogenesis, does not mean that LDL is not a critical causal
component of atherogenesis.  In fact, it is, and this is more than
well-established.

Or let's put it this way -- please reveal your soon-to-be Nobel Prize-
winning mechanistic theory of atherosclerotic plaque formation which
does *not* involve LDL cholesterol at any point in the chain of
events.

> > You can state that elevated LDL is a form of endocrine disruption,
> > *and* it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis.  The two statements
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan

I never called LDL "bad" in and of itself.  I said it is a causal
factor in atherosclerosis.  An obese person eating a terrible diet can
reduce his risk of heart attack by lowering his LDL with a statin or
other medication, and/or he can reduce his risk by losing weight,
exercising, and/or eating a healthy whole-foods diet (choosing from
various macronutrient ratios).  Again, these factors of risk reduction
are not mutually exclusive.

Just because a person can successfully reduce risk by dietary and/or
lifestyle modifications does not mean that statins don't work, or that
LDL is not causally involved in atherosclerosis!
David - 15 Jul 2009 01:13 GMT
> >> Patterns of lipids ratios and particle size can be predictive, but they
> >> don't *cause* CVD.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> all metabolic disorder.  That's a drug target, a surrogate for actual
> useful prevention.

You're falling victim to overly-simplistic, all-or-nothing, black-or-
white thinking.  Just because LDL alone does not explain the totality
of atherogenesis, does not mean that LDL is not a critical causal
component of atherogenesis.  In fact, it is, and this is more than
well-established.

Or let's put it this way -- please reveal your soon-to-be Nobel Prize-
winning mechanistic theory of atherosclerotic plaque formation which
does *not* involve LDL cholesterol at any point in the chain of
events.

> > You can state that elevated LDL is a form of endocrine disruption,
> > *and* it is a causal factor in atherosclerosis.  The two statements
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan

I never called LDL "bad" in and of itself.  I said it is a causal
factor in atherosclerosis.  An obese person eating a terrible diet can
reduce his risk of heart attack by lowering his LDL with a statin or
other medication, and/or he can reduce his risk by losing weight,
exercising, and/or eating a healthy whole-foods diet (choosing from
various macronutrient ratios).  Again, these factors of risk reduction
are not mutually exclusive.

Just because a person can successfully reduce risk by dietary and/or
lifestyle modifications does not mean that statins don't work, or that
LDL is not causally involved in atherosclerosis!
Ron Peterson - 13 Jul 2009 04:48 GMT
> The mountains of data accumulated over decades do not support LDL as
> causal in CVD.  It's a marker of endocrine disruption, just one of
> several.  And it's the least predictive of all lipid markers for CVD.

http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/full/47/8_Suppl_C/C7 claims
otherwise, saying:
"Among the many cardiovascular risk factors, elevated plasma
cholesterol level is probably unique in being sufficient to drive the
development of atherosclerosis, even in the absence of other known
risk factors (5). If all adults had plasma cholesterol levels <150 mg/
dl, symptomatic disease would be rare. The other risk factors, such as
hypertension, diabetes, smoking, male gender, and possibly
inflammatory markers (e.g., C reactive protein, cytokines, and so on),
appear to accelerate a disease driven by atherogenic lipoproteins, the
first of which being low-density lipoprotein (LDL). How they do it is
uncertain, but they may either increase the atherogenicity of LDL
(e.g., particle size, number, and composition) or increase the
susceptibility of the arterial wall (e.g., permeability, glycation,
inflammation, and so on). The importance of risk factors beyond
cholesterol is clearly documented by the great disparity in the
expression of clinical disease among individuals with the same
cholesterol level."

--
  Ron
Susan - 13 Jul 2009 21:36 GMT
> http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/full/47/8_Suppl_C/C7 claims
> otherwise, saying:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> expression of clinical disease among individuals with the same
> cholesterol level."

Just as I said; no proof of causation.

Risk factors are just markers.

Susan
Ron Peterson - 14 Jul 2009 02:50 GMT
> Just as I said; no proof of causation.

Proof is a mathematical way of evaluating the truth.

> Risk factors are just markers.

It makes sense to try to reduce the risk factors. Would you eat a diet
high in saturated fat?

--
  Ron
Susan - 14 Jul 2009 15:15 GMT
sk factors are just markers.

> It makes sense to try to reduce the risk factors. Would you eat a diet
> high in saturated fat?

I have for the past decade.  I have reversed my insulin resistance and
peripheral neuropathies on it, controlled my diabetes and restored
excellent kidney function and my lipids ratios have moved from the
highest risk category (on a fat restricted diet) to below average and
stayed there all this time.

I also pay attention to source/quality issues, buying grass fed meat and
dairy and wild fish.

Susan
Ron Peterson - 14 Jul 2009 21:46 GMT
> > It makes sense to try to reduce the risk factors. Would you eat a diet
> > high in saturated fat?

> I also pay attention to source/quality issues, buying grass fed meat and
> dairy and wild fish.

Fish isn't high in saturated fat and grass fed meat is lower in
saturated fat than grain fed meat, so where are you getting saturated
fat?

Do you have an estimate of the nutritional components in your diet
such as protein, carbohydrates, saturated fat, MFA, and PUFA?

--
  Ron
Arbor B - 11 Jul 2009 20:58 GMT
> Oxidized LDL and the PUFA Connection
>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> they ate, the less their atherosclerosis progressed; in the highest
> intake of saturated fat, the atherosclerosis reversed over time.17
Hey Taka,
Would you please post the link (source) at the top of texts that you
post at the top (ahead of the text) to let each of us know if the text
is even worth attention?

Please!
Thanks,
Arbor

> I will cover the topic of saturated fat, PUFA, and heart disease in
> greater detail in another article on the diet-heart hypothesis.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/The_Cholesterol_Times-Issue-14....
 
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