Most babies think it is horrible (also: Surgeon General Koop on infant circumcision)

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Todd Gastaldo - 02 Feb 2007 14:52 GMT

> On Jan 29, 8:54 am, "ToddGastaldo" <tgasta...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > IF IT'S A BOY...
>
> > I had a huge fight with the mother of my first son.
>
> > I wanted him circumcised - to look like me.
>
> > I'm glad I lost that argument.
>
> > I WROTE:
>
> > I am not engaging in hyperbole.
>
> > DAVID Z REPLIED:
>
> > "Yes, you are...You see, I was one of the many 'abused' babies you
> > claim to be
> > defending. And I speak for most, if not all, of us when I say ---
> > shove
> > your hyperbole up your a.s with the rest of the crap you so
> > generously
> > spew on the Internet..."
>
> > David Z,
>
> > Thank you for your continued response, pejorative as it is.
>
> > Actually we were all mutilated - amid screams of protest.
>
> > Yes - the ripping and slicing is a mutilation. See the quotes below.
>
> > We have forgotten the experience - at least we have no conscious
> > recollection - I don't at least...
>
> > I'VE PREVIOUSLY NOTED ON USENET...
>
> > I very much wanted my eldest son circumcised - had a HUGE fight with
> > his
> > mother - which fortunately I lost...
>
> > I consider my circumcised penis normal - not mutilated - but in
> > fact it *was* mutilated...
>
> > Encyclopedias use the term "mutilation" to describe circumcision.
> > Here are
> > some exact quotes:
>
> > "Thus in Hebrew history the mutilation of Abraham is the beginning of
> > a
> > religious rite which has continued...
>
> > "...[R]eligious mutilations are personal and voluntary in
> > contradistinction to savage practice, where mutilations are imposed
> > by
> > compulsion upon conquered enemies or enslaved peoples or persons..."
> > ["[E]very man purchased with money of yours
> > must without fail get circumcised..." [Genesis 17:13] - TDG]
> > [Gomme L. Mutilation. In Hastings J (ed). Encyclopaedia of Religion
> > and
> > Ethics. Vol. IX NY: Charles Scribner's Sons 1922:62-3]
>
> > "Mutilations of the sexual organs are more ethnically important than
> > any...The most important, circumcision (q.v.), has been transformed
> > into
> > a religious rite...."
> > [Mutilation. The Encyclopaedia Britannica. Vol. XIX, Cambridge,
> > England:
> > University Press 1911:99-100]
>
> > "[C]ircumcision is one of the procedures by which an individual is
> > initiated into a new social role at puberty. Initiation rites may
> > include ordeals involving other forms of mutilation...."
> > [Mutilation. The Encyclopedia Americana. Vol. 19, Danbury, CT:
> > Grolier
> > Inc. 1992:681]
>
> > Call it mutilation - or circumcision - it is a FACT that healthy
> > functional tissue was amputated amid obvious MD lies.
>
> > I don't consciously remember being circumcised/mutilated; but having
> > viewed a video there is no question in my mind that it is child abuse
> > -
> > indeed - "barbaric" is the word used by some nurses (see below).
>
> > A former NO CIRC Board Member is so revulsed by the NO CIRC
> > conference video that she watched it only once - and she couldn't
> > finish watching it.
>
> > When video footage of the mutilation is shown on
> > television, people are warned that it is not for the squeamish - yet
> > the tiniest humans are forced to endure it - THOUSANDS per day!
>
> > Here are some remarks from medical personnel...
>
> > "After years of strapping babies down for this brutal procedure and
> > listening to their screams, we couldn't take it any
> > longer." [Sperlich
> > BK, Conant M. Am J Nurs (Jun)1994:16.http://www.cirp.org/nrc/]
>
> > "Nursing alert...[N]urses must consider their participation in a
> > surgical procedure that involves no anesthesia to be a barbaric
> > practice." (p. 205) Donna L. Wong's Essentials of
> > Pediatric Nursing [1997]
>
> > "[S]till all too often barbaric...[M.D.s]...would never allow older
> > children
> > or
> > adults to be subjected to such practices, nor would they submit to it
> > themselves..." [Veteran circumcision cheerleader Colonel Thomas E.
> > Wiswell,
> > MD in article in the April 24, 1997 New England Journal of
> > Medicine]
>
> > Routine infant circumcision is child abuse of the grossest sort - and
> > occasionally it escalates to criminally negligent homicide - some
> > babies die.
>
> >TODDREMARKS FURTHER TO DAVID Z...
>
> > David Z,
>
> > I will not likely convince you that babies should not be [subjected to the ripping and slicing of their penises].
>
> > Perhaps though some mothers-to-be and fathers-to-be will read what I
> > write in response to you and not allow MDs to rip and slice their
> > infant boys' penises...
>
> > To that end - for them - here is what you snipped...
>
> > The practice of ripping foreskin from glans is called "freeing
> > adhesions" - as in, "freeing
> > adhesions, is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment and is
> > unfounded
> > physiologically and medically." [Kaplan GW: Circumcision: An
> > overview.
> > Current Problems in Pediatrics, 1977;7(5):8]
>
> > Check out this photo of a baby having his foreskin ripped from his
> > glans...http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/
>
> > A group of nurses finally refused to participate:
>
> > "After years of strapping babies down for this brutal procedure and
> > listening to their screams, we couldn't take it any
> > longer." [Sperlich
> > BK,
> > Conant M. Am J Nurs (Jun)1994:16.]
>
> > Sometimes it is good to simply ask for evidence rather than
> > immediately pejorizing another's information as "excrement."
>
> > Thanks for reading.
>
> > Sincerely,
>
> >Todd
>
> > Dr. Gastaldo
> > Hillsboro, Oregon
> > USA
> > t...@chiromotion.com
>
> > PS BTW, in late 1987, after I exposed American MDs perpetuating
> > phony
> > "babies can't feel pain" neurology, I called for an end to the
> > obvious
> > mass child abuse and petitioned Congress for a religious exemption
> > from the
> > child abuse statutes for the ancient Jewish ritual that leaves most
> > of
> > the
> > foreskin on the penis.
>
> > In the January 1988 issue of Pediatrics, the AAP leaned on the Jews
> > and
> > declared war on all religious exemptions to the child abuse statutes.
>
> > AAP members were to "vigorously oppose in the legislatures," all
> > present
> > and proposed religious exemptions; and they were to "defend the
> > rights
> > of all children to the protection and benefits of the law...".
>
> > (Translation: a religious circumcision exemption from the child abuse
> > laws means medical circumcision is indeed child abuse; therefore we
> > M.D.s must now restate our long-standing opposition to religious
> > exemptions. If we are prosecuted, the rabbis and mohelim are going
> > down
> > with us.)
>
> > In the February 1988 issue of Pediatrics, the AAP recommended
> > anonymity
> > for perpetrators of child abuse: "The American Academy of Pediatrics
> > recommends that all states adopt laws forbidding public
> > disclosure...of
> > information that identifies victims of child abuse, their families,
> > AND
> > PERPETRATORS [emphasis added]."
>
> > As always, I am in favor of pardons in advance for MDs. As medical
> > students, MDs are TRAINED to perform obvious felonies.
>
> > MD-obstetricians are senselessly closing birth canals up to 30% -
> > senselessly KEEPING birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% - then
> > slicing vaginas - surgically/fraudulently indicating they are doing
> > everything possible to open the birth canal - even as they keep it
> > closed the "extra" up to 30%.
>
> > MD-obstetrician experts are lying to cover-up.
>
> > For the Four OB Cover-up Lies (they are whoppers) - and for other
> > rather obvious MD crimes...
>
> > See Dents in babies' skulls"http://groups.google.com/group/
> >misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/08abfc7ff242150e
>
> > Alternate URL:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3897
>
> > NOTE: The MD crimes are ongoing because law enforcement is looking
> > the other way - and MDs know it.
>
> > Steve Harris, MD arrogantly boasts:
>
> > "Without enforcement, there is no law. Without law, there is no
> > crime.
> > These are elementary principles. Get an adult to explain them to
> > you."http://groups.google.com/group/misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/
> > 28866f3384801ae9
>
> > Again, thanks for reading.
>
> > Sincerely,
>
> >Todd
>
> > Dr. Gastaldo
> > Hillsboro, Oregon
> > USA
> > t...@chiromotion.com

VAD... RESPONDS...

On Feb 1, 6:58 pm, vad...@gmail.com wrote:

> So are getting your ears pierced "mutilation" too?

#### This is the best argument of the pro-circumcisers in my view.
It is a variation of the argument that the mass infant mutilation
shouldn't end because the mass infant mutilation is ongoing - so I
will re-word it to reflect that...

#### Here is the "ear piercing" argument reworded: Since we allow
parents to pay people to pierce babies' ears - why not keep allowing
parents to keep paying MDs to penetrate, rip and slice off an entire
genital orifice?

#### Taylor et al. (1996) reported that "more than one-half of the
skin and mucosa of the penis is excised..."
http://jme.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/30/3/237#411

#### When pro-infant-penis-ripping folks marshall their "ear-piercing"
argument, I would be much reassured were they to note that the mass
infant penis ripping and slicing involves loss of more than one-half
the skin and mucosa of the penis. At the very least they should
advocate an end to insurance companies paying for the infant genital
mutilations.

> Circumsicion is a
> cultural tradition among many people, and it might seem primitive and
> cruel but most people think its benigh and even beneficial.

#### Most people think it is benign? What about the BABIES? They
aren't people? People who actually watch the infant mutilations
indicate that most people who are actually enduring the mutilations
(BABIES) think it is horrible. Babies scream their protests. Some
babies die. Some lose their penises. Infant penile amputation and
death are rare - but there is no medical indication for forcing a baby
to take that risk.

> There are
> some benefits to it like a reduced rate of penis cancer (rare) later
> in life and a reduced rate in hiv transmission.

#### There are STILL no medical indications. Immediately after I
exposed American medicine's phony babies can't feel pain neurology and
called for an end to the obvious mass child abuse (and for a religious
exemption for the ancient Jewish ritual that leaves most of the
foreskin on the penis) - American MDs lied and declared the mass
infant penis ripping and slicing to be "an effective public health
measure" that had been "confirmed" in Africa to prevent transmission
of HIV.

#### It was an obvious HIV/infant penis hoax - and the obvious hoax is
being perpetuated today.

See HIV: Keeping MDs out of prison: Dr. Poland, AAP and infant
circumcision revisited
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/43c7261a4aafff5a

#### Every time the "prevents transmission of HIV" hoax is mentioned -
every time "scientific" studies purporting to offer support for the
hoax are cited - the great potential for bias should be mentioned:
American MDs stand to go to prison for their mass infant penis ripping
and slicing - which fact is what gave birth to the "prevents
transmission of HIV" hoax in the first place.

#### Penile cancer is not a compelling argument either.

#### According to the CIRP website:

"To paraphrase Dr. George Denniston: Cancer of the penis is very rare,
with a lifetime risk of between 1/600 and 1/1300. It strikes mostly
older men. Even if circumcision could prevent it completely (which it
does not), about a thousand foreskin amputations would be necessary to
prevent one cancer of the penis. A thousand infants would be
mutilated, and several would die to prevent that one case of cancer.
Who could scientifically advocate foreskin amputation for this
reason?"
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

#### Mass infant penis ripping and slicing should have ended in
America BILLIONS of dollars' worth of infant screams ago. Ending the
infant screams now would save America an estimated $400 million per
year and PRESERVE the surgery as a CHOICE American males could make
for themselves in adulthood.

> In the US there's
> also the benfeit of that your baby son will "fit in" in the locker
> room as most boys in the us are circumsiced.

#### Ah, the psychological trauma theory - another obvious hoax...

#### This brings me to....

SURGEON GENERAL KOOP ON INFANT CIRCUMCISION

>>>>>BEGIN excerpt of Dr. Gastaldo's 2000 discussion...

http://groups.google.com/group/
misc.health.alternative/msg/224e1a3d8ffaaf98

Even after all respected medical groups declared no medical
indications for
circumcision, hospitals subtly marketed the procedure (and still
market the
procedure) by presenting parents with circumcision consent forms to
sign.
(Oregon midwifery regulations urge midwives to market circumcision to
clients as an "available obstetric and pediatric service." .)

No less an authority than U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, M.D.
"marketed" partial penile amputations after it was admitted that there
were
never any medical indications. In the pages of the Saturday Evening
Post,
Koop encouraged parents to ask for circumcision by telling them that
"psychological problems...do occur in families with two little boys,
one of
whom is circumcised and one of whom is not." [U.S. Surgeon General C.
Everrett Koop. Letter. Jul/Aug 1982 Saturday Evening Post]

Koop closed his 1982 letter to the Saturday Evening Post with an
indirect
contradiction of his own argument.

He wrote,

"All of the Western world except the United States raises its
children
uncircumcised and it seems logical that...such a practice must be
safe."

Obviously, since no psychological problems (in families with "two
little
boys, one of whom is circumcised and one of whom is not") were
reported when
the British circumcision rate plummeted following WWII, it must indeed
be
safe to abruptly stop circumcising.

Desmond Morris, author of The Naked Ape, recently asked rhetorically
why the
mutilation called circumcision is not prosecuted as child abuse.
Morris
noted that all of the reasons given to do circumcisions are
"nonsense," and
added that the British circumcision rate plummeted to 0.41% soon
after
physicians stopped getting paid to do circumcisions. [Morris D.
Babywatching. New York: Crown 1992]

Some key quotes from the medical and legal literature...

"[The first step in all circumcisions]...freeing adhesions, is
tantamount to
cruel and unusual punishment and is unfounded physiologically and
medically." [Kaplan GW: Circumcision: An overview. Current Problems
in
Pediatrics, 1977;7(5):8.]

"[Routine infant circumcision] constitutes child abuse...an
acknowledged
hazard to health." [Katz M. Circumcision. AJDC 1980;134:1098]

"After years of strapping babies down for this brutal procedure and
listening to their screams, we couldn't take it any longer." [Sperlich
BK,
Conant M. Am J Nurs (Jun)1994:16.]

"[C]onstitutional rights...including freedom of religion, are
inadequate to
prevent the states from using their authority to treat circumcision as
child
abuse...The most obvious way to proceed with enforcement...is through
criminal prosecution under existing state laws." [Brigman WE:
Circumcision
as child abuse: the legal and Constitutional issues. Journal of Family
Law,
1984;23(3):337-57]

The most recent play in the grisly medico-legal game appears to be
establishing legal precedent for the obviously illegal notion that
parents
may consent to have crime inflicted on their children.

[Check out the LONDON case - where the California Supreme Court
legalized the procedure. Mysteriously, the NO CIRC-affiliated legal
"opposition" failed to inform the court that American MDs used phony
"babies can't feel pain" neurology to promote the mass infant
mutilation.

[The LONDON decision is a lot like the arrogant boast of Steve Harris,
MD:

> > "Without enforcement, there is no law. Without law, there is no
> > crime.
> > These are elementary principles. Get an adult to explain them to
> > you."http://groups.google.com/group/misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/
> > 28866f3384801ae9

>>>>>END excerpt of Dr. Gastaldo's 2000 discussion...

http://groups.google.com/group/
misc.health.alternative/msg/224e1a3d8ffaaf98

Thanks for reading everyone.

Sincerely,

Todd

Dr. Gastaldo
Hillsboro, Oregon
USA
todd@chiromotion.com

Reply to this Message

vad123@gmail.com - 03 Feb 2007 01:00 GMT

> > On Jan 29, 8:54 am, "ToddGastaldo" <tgasta...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 448 lines]
> USA
> t...@chiromotion.com

I'd believe you if you showed be credible evidence that circumsicion
carries a high morbidity and mortality risk like you claim. In your
stamtent above you say that if 1000 kids are circumsicied several of
them will die from it. Where's the source?

Here's some articles I have found:

Does neonatal circumcision decrease morbidity?
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0689/is_1_54/ai_n8705007

Complications of circumcision
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/williams-kapila/

A Prospective Survey of the Indications and Morbidity of Circumcision
in Children
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/griffiths/

Circumcision and the Risk of Cancer of the Penis. A Life-Table
Analysis
http://www.circs.org/library/kochen/index.html

http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/griffiths/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6
109678&dopt=Abstract
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1464-4096.2001.02416.x
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14177224

All of these say that it decreases morbidity and the only complication
that occurs with any frequency is a granuloma at the site in 5%.
Serious complication occur only when the circumsicion is done in an
unsterile fashion, by a ritual practioner.

Reply to this Message

Todd Gastaldo - 05 Feb 2007 18:37 GMT

Vad wrote:

I'd believe you if you showed be credible evidence that circumsicion
carries a high morbidity and mortality risk like you claim.

#### Just read common law before the LONDON case: Even GOOD surgery
performed without informed consent is a battery/crime.

#### In the LONDON case, the court wasn't informed (by NO CIRC-
affiliated attorneys) that American MDs have been LYING - most likely
to stay out of prison...

#### Vad, you offered an article by KINKADE ET AL.

#### As I recently wrote to KINKADE ET AL. (via SUSAN MEADOWS): your
article does not
mention that American MDs repeatedly declared there were no medical
indications - then started an obvious "potential" medical indications
fraud
when it was pointed out they could go to prison (for perpetuating
phony
"babies can't feel pain" neurology as they obtained "informed" consent
for
their mass infant penis ripping and slicing). The prospect of prison
time
likely creates a strong bias and accounts for the fact that - after
the
prospect of prison time was pointed out - the California Medical
Association
House of Delegates suddenly resurrected a resolution that the CMA
Scientific
Board had just squashed. By voice vote, the CMA House of Delegates
decided
that routine infant circumcision was "an effective public health
measure"
that had been "confirmed" in Africa to prevent transmission of HIV/
AIDS.
Kinkade et al. blithely suggest that circumcision prevents
transmission of
HIV without mentioning the CMA's resolution (CMA Res. 305-88) and the
fact
that the prospect of prison time likely caused the CMA House of
Delegates to
ignore its own Scientific Board and pass CMA Res. 305-88 . The
anti-scientific resurrection of CMA Res. 305-88 ("confirmed"/"an
effective
public health measure") and the prospect of prison time should be
mentioned
every time "potential" medical indications are mentioned. I will cc
Kinkade
et al. via meadowss@health.missouri.edu

See below and see HIV: Keeping MDs out of prison: Dr. Poland, AAP and
infant
circumcision revisited
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/43c7261a4aafff5a

I am in favor of pardons in advance for MDs. As medical students, MDs
are
TRAINED to perform obvious felonies.

For other obvious felonies performed by MDs...

See Dents in babies' skulls"
http://groups.google.com/group/
misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/08abfc7ff242150e

Alternate URL:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3897

Vad also wrote:

In your
stamtent above you say that if 1000 kids are circumsicied several of
them will die from it. Where's the source?

#### Good catch. I answered your post more fully in,

Prison time for MDs (also: Dr. Denniston: An apparent Cirp.org error)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/0c4b232324a6e9e8

#### Thanks for responding, Vad.

#### Sincerely,

#### Todd

#### Dr. Gastaldo
#### Hillsboro, Oregon
#### USA
#### todd@chiromotion.com

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