Medical Forum / General / General / January 2007
Chips - beyond identification and tracking
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Dave - 05 Jan 2007 20:46 GMT I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking. The obvious step to me is sensor synergies, and implanted glucose monitors for diabetics are already being worked on. (I'm not sure about automatic drug correction.) It should only be a small step therefore to have chips which can monitor medication, illegal drugs, and alcohol.
There is a responsibility to use technology to help the weakest in society. It was in the news this week that up to 50% of those on mental health medication do not take it as prescribed. Also a drunk driver may only be allowed to drive again if he/she had such an implant. 24/7 monitoring of illegal drugs may help stop re-offending, and communication technology would facilitate a rapid response.
Further ahead there may be applications for brain function monitoring, so that if your alertness falls when driving you are alerted. On the other hand you could check that sufficient rest/sleep is taken. There may be a use for employers to ensure employees spend at least some of the day in productive though, (in knowledge sectors.)
Embedded heart monitors have been around for years, and have saved lives. I'm not sure if it would be possible to tell if someone was overeating, but obesity cost the US about $100 billion/year. E.g. If you ate a bar of chocolate it would known. If there were lower premiums for the chipped then this may be an incentive for implantation.
Ian Smith - 06 Jan 2007 04:30 GMT > I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip > implants are becoming an established technology for identification [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > premiums for the chipped then this may be an incentive for > implantation. I have no problem with using technology to monitor for medical conditions, as it might save many lives. But it must be voluntary; not enforced by the state, ie. down to individual responsibility.
The government has no right to restrict our freedom to live life to the full, even if that involves risky behaviour. We have to accept that life is inherently risky, and take full responsibility for our own actions. Safety can never reach 100%. If we try to achieve this then nothing will ever get done. Well before that point, the economy will have been utterly destroyed.
-- "Let Darwin decide."
Dave - 06 Jan 2007 10:46 GMT ...
> I have no problem with using technology to monitor for medical conditions, > as it might save many lives. But it must be voluntary; not enforced by the > state, ie. down to individual responsibility. I was hoping that you may have picked up from the post that this may be enforced by corporations. For instance what happens if you cannot access your bank account without a chip. What happens if you cannot get insurance without an implant? There is already insurance you can buy, part of which you a tracker in your car.
> The government has no right to restrict our freedom to live life to the > full, even if that involves risky behaviour. We have to accept that life is > inherently risky, and take full responsibility for our own actions. Safety > can never reach 100%. If we try to achieve this then nothing will ever get > done. Well before that point, the economy will have been utterly destroyed. You should find this interesing: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/costingtheearth.shtml (Not sure if non-UK IP addresses can access the show) which talks about health and safety in India. There was a presumption that UK health and safety laws should be applied to stone production in India, for stone imported to the UK. This though is worthy of a top level thread, (H&S neo-colonialism). This has already happened to timber, from an environmental point of view.
> -- > "Let Darwin decide." Ian Smith - 07 Jan 2007 00:25 GMT > ... >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > get insurance without an implant? There is already insurance you can > buy, part of which you a tracker in your car. This could be a powerful argument for a UK Bill of Rights, which asserts our freedom to conduct business unhindered and without involuntary body modifications. IOW, no corporation or government should be allowed to demand violations of our basic freedoms just so we can do business with them.
>> The government has no right to restrict our freedom to live life to >> the full, even if that involves risky behaviour. We have to accept [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> -- >> "Let Darwin decide." Rampant cottonwoolism reduces our ability to properly assess risk and also affects overall productivity.
The Ghost In The Machine - 06 Jan 2007 04:45 GMT In alt.conspiracy, Dave <dwickford@yahoo.com> wrote on 5 Jan 2007 12:46:47 -0800 <1168030007.666076.50430@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
> I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants > are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > you ate a bar of chocolate it would known. If there were lower > premiums for the chipped then this may be an incentive for implantation. In order to do this correctly one would have to have a large distributed database. This database would be responsible for tracking where the chip is, and whether the substances within one's body are legal within the locality within which the chip is currently sitting.
For example, apparently some areas of the Eastern seaboard are still quite "dry", and one could in theory arrest anyone consuming alcohol therein. Of course the police would have the interesting task of attempting to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the 0.10% level shown by the chip was caused by consumption in the county/parish/borough/precinct, and not because someone just had a bender in the neighboring non-dry county/parish/borough/precinct. (Assuming there's no calibration issues.)
There are also designer drug issues. Suppose a brand new (but highly addictive) chemical substance is discovered tomorrow, and made illegal the day after. How would the detectors already in the field be programmed to detect it and alert the authorities?
Anyone *without* a chip, of course, would be shot on sight -- with a tranquillizer dart (Animal Control would be responsible for this, for various rather odd reasons). The person would be determined to be human (probably by the shooter), bundled into an ambulance, chipped in a hospital, identified, billed, and released.
The chip would also serve as an access to one's bank account. Basically, no cards would be needed; one simply walks into a store, and walks out again with an RFID-tagged item through the store's main security detectors. The store deactivates the RFID and debits one's account. The store also has the option of charging various prices depending on one's demographics (picked up from the distributed database) -- or the store can simply file a theft charge and alert the local authorities, who could easily pick up the individual by listening to his tracking signal.
In short, if you're rich, expect to pay more; if you're poor, expect to be hassled. But never mind all that -- isn't this newfangled technology thingy great? :-)
 Signature #191, ewill3@earthlink.net Does anyone else remember the 1802?
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Dave - 06 Jan 2007 10:56 GMT > In alt.conspiracy, Dave > <dwickford@yahoo.com> > wrote ...
> There are also designer drug issues. Suppose a brand new > (but highly addictive) chemical substance is discovered > tomorrow, and made illegal the day after. How would the > detectors already in the field be programmed to detect it > and alert the authorities? It sounds like a race. I don't have an real answer. The science fiction answer is that the chemical sensor would be constructed with nano-technology and reprogramable. Maybe it would be possible to detect mophine-line substances, for example.
I have previously posted that the abolition of cash would help in combatting the illegal drug trade.
Harry The Horse - 06 Jan 2007 12:16 GMT > I have previously posted that the abolition of cash would help in > combatting the illegal drug trade. No doubt it would but at the expense of the abolition of freedom for everyone.
Harry The Horse - 06 Jan 2007 12:15 GMT > For example, apparently some areas of the Eastern > seaboard are still quite "dry", and one could in theory > arrest anyone consuming alcohol therein. Is that really the case? I know that there are some US counties that are either 'dry' on Sunday or 'dry' all the time, but I thought that related only to the sale of alcohol and not to its consumption. Even Prohibition did not make the *consumption* of alcohol illegal, only its production, transportation and sale. A few years ago I found myself in Winchester VA on a Sunday evening and discovered that it was dry on Sunday. So I drove over the border into West Virginia, found an off-licence and and came back with a few bottles of beer to drink in my hotel room. I left the empty bottles in the room and no one complained!
The Ghost In The Machine - 06 Jan 2007 16:45 GMT In alt.conspiracy, Harry The Horse <HarryAtTheStable@hotmail.com> wrote on Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:15:08 -0000 <1168085709.53906.0@iris.uk.clara.net>:
>> For example, apparently some areas of the Eastern >> seaboard are still quite "dry", and one could in theory [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > few bottles of beer to drink in my hotel room. I left the empty bottles in > the room and no one complained! An interesting subpoint, that. However, once these chips come into common use, the laws will probably change to reflect consumption and/or indicated inebriation as opposed to mere purchase -- the intent of Prohibition, presumably, was to get rid of, among other alcoholic beverages, "demon rum".
I'll admit to hoping we sort out "freedom" well before then, because even back in the Founder's time, no one was free to fly like a bird (no doubt many knew about Icarus), yet they did understand at least some of the issues regarding oppression, and one means of mitigating them -- deadly force using a projectile weapon. Admittedly, back then the weapon was a musket rifle needing a minute to reload, not a semiautomatic containing ~10 bullets in a magazine one can just slap into the weapon.
And the Founders didn't have cell phones, either. They did have writing and printing, but the telegraph didn't come into being until many years later.
 Signature #191, ewill3@earthlink.net Linux sucks efficiently, but Windows just blows around a lot of hot air and vapor.
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Dave - 06 Jan 2007 17:11 GMT > > For example, apparently some areas of the Eastern > > seaboard are still quite "dry", and one could in theory [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > few bottles of beer to drink in my hotel room. I left the empty bottles in > the room and no one complained! The original idea was that if someone was a convicted drunk driver they would only be able to drive a vehicle with an alcohol detection implant, otherwise it wouldn't start, or stop if they became drunk. There are systems with breath analysis so I thought I would put 2 and 2 together. I'm sure it is only a minor change from detecting glucose to detecting alcohol, and interfacing this with the ignition. (OK, stopping a vehicle may be unsafe, but you could always message the police.)
With regard to the brain monitoring: unfortunately I don't know enough about brain waves to know if you can tell if a driver is dozing off. However I would feel happier with truck drivers monitored for altertness. I have seen plenty drifting across lanes in my time.
911review.org - 06 Jan 2007 04:58 GMT actually, the technology itself is not that new. my sister had a ostrich farm, all the animals had implants to track them in case they got out, also for "which on is which" and when thier last shots were etc....
unfortunately, this technolgy can also be used by Big Brother to track what you are doing, and when you are doing it. already starting to get cameras on the street corners, and with the patriot act they can find out what book you checked out etc... Brad http://911review.org http://911review.stumbleupon.com/ http://computersbybrad.batcave.net/
> I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants > are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > you ate a bar of chocolate it would known. If there were lower > premiums for the chipped then this may be an incentive for implantation. David Fabian - 06 Jan 2007 18:24 GMT >I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants > are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > you ate a bar of chocolate it would known. If there were lower > premiums for the chipped then this may be an incentive for implantation. Good ideas -- the only problem is that we cannot trust the overseers.
For example, a pizza-delivery man was recently captured and fitted with a collar-bomb that blew his head off after he failed to rob a bank for the perpetrators.
It would be just a matter of time before the overseers used the implants to turn subjects into complete slaves, with no chance of escape. Penalties for disobedience would range from pain to death.
Beyond implants, subjects might be fitted with devices that record or control everything they see, think, say, or do.
Dave - 06 Jan 2007 19:10 GMT > >I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants > > are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Good ideas -- the only problem is that we cannot trust the overseers. I think intoxicated and tired drivers kill more Americans than terrorists. http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html Princess Diana may still be alive if all professional drivers were chipped.
The Ghost In The Machine - 06 Jan 2007 21:49 GMT In alt.conspiracy, Dave <dwickford@yahoo.com> wrote on 6 Jan 2007 11:10:40 -0800 <1168110640.479513.296200@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>:
>> >I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants >> > are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Princess Diana may still be alive if all professional drivers were > chipped. I don't know how many deaths from terrorists Americans suffer worldwide, but if one divides the ~3000 deaths from 2001-09-11 by the number of years, one gets 600 deaths per year from terrorism.
The number of deaths from road collisions approximates 30,000 per year.
Yet...which one gets more money?
And even that is a small teaspoonfull in a bucket compared to the number of deaths from heart failure and cancer.
What are our priorities?
 Signature #191, ewill3@earthlink.net Conventional memory has to be one of the most UNconventional architectures I've seen in a computer system.
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David Morgan (MAMS) - 06 Jan 2007 23:10 GMT "The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote in message...
> In alt.conspiracy, Dave <dwickford@yahoo.com> wrote...
> > Princess Diana may still be alive if all professional drivers were > > chipped. What a joke....
> I don't know how many deaths from terrorists Americans > suffer worldwide, but if one divides the ~3000 deaths from [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > And even that is a small teaspoonfull in a bucket compared > to the number of deaths from heart failure and cancer. Another interesting analogy, is to take the American population and calculate by using those deaths caused by 'terrorism' and conclude that the odds of an American being affected by terrorist activity are approximately 1 in three quarters of a million.
Your government, of course, would like you to believe that the odds are more along the lines of 80 in 100.... which it may turn out to be if the country doesn't get it's act back together fairly quickly. The only way to do this is to cease the complacency and get active in the election process; know about the person you vote for... not how their TV ads portray them; and work on ending the corruption in America's opilitcal system and it's politicians, down to the most 'local' of levels.
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