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Medical Forum / General / General / January 2007

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Chips - beyond identification and tracking

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Dave - 05 Jan 2007 20:46 GMT
I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants
are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking.
The obvious step to me is sensor synergies, and implanted glucose
monitors for diabetics are already being worked on. (I'm not sure about
automatic drug correction.) It should only be a small step therefore to
have chips which can monitor medication, illegal drugs, and alcohol.

There is a responsibility to use technology to help the weakest in
society.  It was in the news this week that up to 50% of those on
mental health medication do not take it as prescribed. Also a drunk
driver may only be allowed to drive again if he/she had such an
implant.  24/7 monitoring of illegal drugs may help stop re-offending,
and communication technology would facilitate a rapid response.

Further ahead there may be applications for brain function monitoring,
so that if your alertness falls when driving you are alerted.  On the
other hand you could check that sufficient rest/sleep is taken.  There
may be a use for employers to ensure employees spend at least some of
the day in productive though, (in knowledge sectors.)

Embedded heart monitors have been around for years, and have saved
lives.  I'm not sure if it would be possible to tell if someone was
overeating, but obesity cost the US about $100 billion/year.  E.g. If
you ate a bar of chocolate it would known.  If there were lower
premiums for the chipped then this may be an incentive for implantation.
Ian Smith - 06 Jan 2007 04:30 GMT
> I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip
> implants are becoming an established technology for identification
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> premiums for the chipped then this may be an incentive for
> implantation.

I have no problem with using technology to monitor for medical conditions,
as it might save many lives. But it must be voluntary; not enforced by the
state, ie. down to individual responsibility.

The government has no right to restrict our freedom to live life to the
full, even if that involves risky behaviour. We have to accept that life is
inherently risky, and take full responsibility for our own actions. Safety
can never reach 100%. If we try to achieve this then nothing will ever get
done. Well before that point, the economy will have been utterly destroyed.

--
"Let Darwin decide."
Dave - 06 Jan 2007 10:46 GMT
...

> I have no problem with using technology to monitor for medical conditions,
> as it might save many lives. But it must be voluntary; not enforced by the
> state, ie. down to individual responsibility.
I was hoping that you may have picked up from the post that this may be
enforced by corporations.  For instance what happens if you cannot
access your bank account without a chip.  What happens if you cannot
get insurance without an implant?   There is already insurance you can
buy, part of which you a tracker in your car.

> The government has no right to restrict our freedom to live life to the
> full, even if that involves risky behaviour. We have to accept that life is
> inherently risky, and take full responsibility for our own actions. Safety
> can never reach 100%. If we try to achieve this then nothing will ever get
> done. Well before that point, the economy will have been utterly destroyed.
You should find this interesing:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/costingtheearth.shtml
(Not sure if non-UK IP addresses can access the show)
which talks about health and safety in India.  There was a presumption
that UK health and safety laws should be applied to stone production in
India, for stone imported to the UK.  This though is worthy of a top
level thread, (H&S neo-colonialism).  This has already happened to
timber, from an environmental point of view.

> --
> "Let Darwin decide."
Ian Smith - 07 Jan 2007 00:25 GMT
> ...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> get insurance without an implant?   There is already insurance you can
> buy, part of which you a tracker in your car.

This could be a powerful argument for a UK Bill of Rights, which asserts our
freedom to conduct business unhindered and without involuntary body
modifications. IOW, no corporation or government should be allowed to demand
violations of our basic freedoms just so we can do business with them.

>> The government has no right to restrict our freedom to live life to
>> the full, even if that involves risky behaviour. We have to accept
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> --
>> "Let Darwin decide."

Rampant cottonwoolism reduces our ability to properly assess risk and also
affects overall productivity.
The Ghost In The Machine - 06 Jan 2007 04:45 GMT
In alt.conspiracy, Dave
<dwickford@yahoo.com>
wrote
on 5 Jan 2007 12:46:47 -0800
<1168030007.666076.50430@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
> I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants
> are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> you ate a bar of chocolate it would known.  If there were lower
> premiums for the chipped then this may be an incentive for implantation.

In order to do this correctly one would have to have
a large distributed database.  This database would be
responsible for tracking where the chip is, and whether
the substances within one's body are legal within the
locality within which the chip is currently sitting.

For example, apparently some areas of the Eastern
seaboard are still quite "dry", and one could in theory
arrest anyone consuming alcohol therein.  Of course the
police would have the interesting task of attempting
to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the 0.10%
level shown by the chip was caused by consumption in
the county/parish/borough/precinct, and not because
someone just had a bender in the neighboring non-dry
county/parish/borough/precinct.  (Assuming there's no
calibration issues.)

There are also designer drug issues.  Suppose a brand new
(but highly addictive) chemical substance is discovered
tomorrow, and made illegal the day after.  How would the
detectors already in the field be programmed to detect it
and alert the authorities?

Anyone *without* a chip, of course, would be shot on
sight -- with a tranquillizer dart (Animal Control would
be responsible for this, for various rather odd reasons).
The person would be determined to be human (probably by the
shooter), bundled into an ambulance, chipped in a hospital,
identified, billed, and released.

The chip would also serve as an access to one's bank
account.  Basically, no cards would be needed; one
simply walks into a store, and walks out again with
an RFID-tagged item through the store's main security
detectors.  The store deactivates the RFID and debits
one's account.  The store also has the option of charging
various prices depending on one's demographics (picked up
from the distributed database) -- or the store can simply
file a theft charge and alert the local authorities, who
could easily pick up the individual by listening to his
tracking signal.

In short, if you're rich, expect to pay more; if you're poor,
expect to be hassled.  But never mind all that -- isn't this
newfangled technology thingy great? :-)

Signature

#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Does anyone else remember the 1802?

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Dave - 06 Jan 2007 10:56 GMT
> In alt.conspiracy, Dave
> <dwickford@yahoo.com>
>  wrote
...
> There are also designer drug issues.  Suppose a brand new
> (but highly addictive) chemical substance is discovered
> tomorrow, and made illegal the day after.  How would the
> detectors already in the field be programmed to detect it
> and alert the authorities?
It sounds like a race.  I don't have an real answer.  The science
fiction answer is that the chemical sensor would be constructed with
nano-technology and reprogramable.  Maybe it would be possible to
detect mophine-line substances, for example.

I have previously posted that the abolition of cash would help in
combatting the illegal drug trade.
Harry The Horse - 06 Jan 2007 12:16 GMT
> I have previously posted that the abolition of cash would help in
> combatting the illegal drug trade.

No doubt it would but at the expense of the abolition of freedom for
everyone.
Harry The Horse - 06 Jan 2007 12:15 GMT
> For example, apparently some areas of the Eastern
> seaboard are still quite "dry", and one could in theory
> arrest anyone consuming alcohol therein.

Is that really the case?  I know that there are some US counties that are
either 'dry' on Sunday or 'dry' all the time, but I thought that related
only to the sale of alcohol and not to its consumption.  Even Prohibition
did not make the *consumption* of alcohol illegal, only its production,
transportation and sale.  A few years ago I found myself in Winchester VA on
a Sunday evening and discovered that it was dry on Sunday.  So I drove over
the border into West Virginia, found an off-licence and and came back with a
few bottles of beer to drink in my hotel room.  I left the empty bottles in
the room and no one complained!
The Ghost In The Machine - 06 Jan 2007 16:45 GMT
In alt.conspiracy, Harry The Horse
<HarryAtTheStable@hotmail.com>
wrote
on Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:15:08 -0000
<1168085709.53906.0@iris.uk.clara.net>:

>> For example, apparently some areas of the Eastern
>> seaboard are still quite "dry", and one could in theory
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> few bottles of beer to drink in my hotel room.  I left the empty bottles in
> the room and no one complained!

An interesting subpoint, that.  However, once these chips
come into common use, the laws will probably change to
reflect consumption and/or indicated inebriation as opposed
to mere purchase -- the intent of Prohibition, presumably,
was to get rid of, among other alcoholic beverages,
"demon rum".

I'll admit to hoping we sort out "freedom" well before
then, because even back in the Founder's time, no one was
free to fly like a bird (no doubt many knew about Icarus),
yet they did understand at least some of the issues
regarding oppression, and one means of mitigating them
-- deadly force using a projectile weapon.  Admittedly,
back then the weapon was a musket rifle needing a minute
to reload, not a semiautomatic containing ~10 bullets in
a magazine one can just slap into the weapon.

And the Founders didn't have cell phones, either.  They did
have writing and printing, but the telegraph didn't come
into being until many years later.

Signature

#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Linux sucks efficiently, but Windows just blows around
a lot of hot air and vapor.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Dave - 06 Jan 2007 17:11 GMT
> > For example, apparently some areas of the Eastern
> > seaboard are still quite "dry", and one could in theory
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> few bottles of beer to drink in my hotel room.  I left the empty bottles in
> the room and no one complained!
The original idea was that if someone was a convicted drunk driver they
would only be able to drive a vehicle with an alcohol detection
implant, otherwise it wouldn't start, or stop if they became drunk.
There are systems with breath analysis so I thought I would put 2 and 2
together.  I'm sure it is only a minor change from detecting glucose to
detecting alcohol, and  interfacing this with the ignition.  (OK,
stopping a vehicle may be unsafe, but you could always message the
police.)

With regard to the brain monitoring: unfortunately I don't know enough
about brain waves to know if you can tell if a driver is dozing off.
However I would feel happier with truck drivers monitored for
altertness.  I have seen plenty drifting across lanes in my time.
911review.org - 06 Jan 2007 04:58 GMT
actually, the technology itself is not that new.
my sister had a ostrich farm, all the animals had implants to track
them in case they got out, also for "which on is which" and when thier
last shots were etc....

unfortunately, this technolgy can also be used by Big Brother to track
what you are doing, and when you are doing it.
already starting to get cameras on the street corners, and with the
patriot act they can find out what book you checked out etc...
Brad
http://911review.org
http://911review.stumbleupon.com/
http://computersbybrad.batcave.net/

> I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants
> are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> you ate a bar of chocolate it would known.  If there were lower
> premiums for the chipped then this may be an incentive for implantation.
David Fabian - 06 Jan 2007 18:24 GMT
>I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants
> are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> you ate a bar of chocolate it would known.  If there were lower
> premiums for the chipped then this may be an incentive for implantation.

Good ideas -- the only problem is that we cannot trust the overseers.

For example, a pizza-delivery man was recently captured and fitted with
a collar-bomb that blew his head off after he failed to rob a bank for the
perpetrators.

It would be just a matter of time before the overseers used the implants
to turn subjects into complete slaves, with no chance of escape.  Penalties
for disobedience would range from pain to death.

Beyond implants, subjects might be fitted with devices that record or
control everything they see, think, say, or do.
Dave - 06 Jan 2007 19:10 GMT
> >I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants
> > are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Good ideas -- the only problem is that we cannot trust the overseers.
I think intoxicated and tired drivers kill more Americans than
terrorists.
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html
Princess Diana may still be alive if all professional drivers were
chipped.
The Ghost In The Machine - 06 Jan 2007 21:49 GMT
In alt.conspiracy, Dave
<dwickford@yahoo.com>
wrote
on 6 Jan 2007 11:10:40 -0800
<1168110640.479513.296200@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>:

>> >I was wondering what the logical next steps are, now that chip implants
>> > are becoming an established technology for identification and tracking.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Princess Diana may still be alive if all professional drivers were
> chipped.

I don't know how many deaths from terrorists Americans
suffer worldwide, but if one divides the ~3000 deaths from
2001-09-11 by the number of years, one gets 600 deaths per
year from terrorism.

The number of deaths from road collisions approximates
30,000 per year.

Yet...which one gets more money?

And even that is a small teaspoonfull in a bucket compared
to the number of deaths from heart failure and cancer.

What are our priorities?

Signature

#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Conventional memory has to be one of the most UNconventional
architectures I've seen in a computer system.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

David Morgan (MAMS) - 06 Jan 2007 23:10 GMT
"The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote in message...

> In alt.conspiracy, Dave <dwickford@yahoo.com> wrote...

> > Princess Diana may still be alive if all professional drivers were
> > chipped.

What a joke....

> I don't know how many deaths from terrorists Americans
> suffer worldwide, but if one divides the ~3000 deaths from
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> And even that is a small teaspoonfull in a bucket compared
> to the number of deaths from heart failure and cancer.

Another interesting analogy, is to take the American population and
calculate by using those deaths caused by 'terrorism' and conclude
that the odds of an American being affected by terrorist activity are
approximately 1 in three quarters of a million.

Your government, of course, would like you to believe that the
odds are more along the lines of 80 in 100.... which it may turn
out to be if the country doesn't get it's act back together fairly
quickly.  The only way to do this is to cease the complacency
and get active in the election process; know about the person
you vote for... not how their TV ads portray them; and work on
ending the corruption in America's opilitcal system and it's
politicians, down to the most 'local' of levels.
 
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