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Medical Forum / General / General / August 2006

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Homeopathy - was The Lancet lying to us ?

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ship - 05 Jul 2006 20:43 GMT
Hi

Please excuse the cross-posting. But I recall a rather long and
VITRIOLIC discussion about homeopathy that I started in these
newsgroups back in 2003.

I presented the case that there is hard scientific evidence that
Homeopathy can and sometimes unambiguously does work. The universe is a
mysterious place, and we need to have humility about our theories and
accept good quality counter evidence if and when it occurs.

And several hard-core orthodox medics/scientists flamed me SERERELY.
Their killer argument essentially being we know of known mechanisms as
to how Homeopathy could possibly work (because there is 'nothing' in it
according to our chemistry friends) THEREFORE it doesn't work.
Therefore any study you put before me MUST be of poor quality. Even if
it isn't.

Recently The Lancet had a go at Homeopathy too. With a headline of "The
End of Homeopathy".

But sometimes The Establishment is simply lies to us.

There is so much intellectual capital built up and so many professional
reputations at stake, not to mention the multi-trillion dollar pharma
industry itself...  that, surprise, surprise, the truth is crucified.

Yes it seems that the medics sometimes have been lying again. Or maybe
not.

Please read what follows *carefully* from beginning to end.
And let's see if we can have a half intelligent conversation without
everyone seeing red and behaving like arrogant, bigotted little school
children.

Here goes: [deep breath]

THE SHOCKING TRUTH ABOUT HOMEOPATHY AND THE MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT

Research discovers doctors are not telling the truth to patients

You probably use homeopathic remedies for you and your family, and so
you know they work.  Despite this, doctors keep repeating the mantra:
'There's no evidence for it'.

The most recent attack came from a group of 13 scientists and doctors,
led by Prof Michael Baum, who urged the National Health Service to stop
wasting money on 'an implausible' therapy that had never worked in any
trial.

So how come it works for you, and for thousands of others?  Most
doctors put it down to the 'placebo effect' - you think it is going
to do you good.  But the real reason is far simpler, as researchers at
What Doctors Don't Tell You (WDDTY) have uncovered - doctors just
aren't telling us the truth about homeopathy.

In a special research project, WDDTY investigators have uncovered
scores of major studies into homeopathy that all prove just how
effective homeopathy can be, research that was ignored by Baum and
colleagues.

THE WAR AGAINST HOMEOPATHY

Worse, the WDDTY research team discovered that evidence had been
tampered with or rejected to such an extent that it ceased to be
science, and instead smacks of an agenda to finally kill off homeopathy
as a genuine alternative to mainstream medicine.

Last autumn the prestigious medical journal The Lancet published a
study that was so damning of homeopathy that the cover read 'The End of
Homeopathy'.  Beneath it, it told doctors that they 'need to be bold
and honest with their patients about homeopathy's lack of benefit'.

Of course, this made national news - and no doubt many people were
influenced by it.  Sadly, the journalists, as always, took the story on
face value, but there was another story to tell.

The Lancet's strident headline was based on a meta-analysis that
reviewed 110 clinical trials in homeopathy.  All the trials were of a
high quality and were scientific, the researchers agreed.  The majority
of trials found that homeopathy worked or had 'a beneficial effect', as
the research team put it.

PREJUDICE DRESSED UP AS SCIENCE

However, the researchers decided to reject 102 of these trials from
their final analysis.  Eight of the 'rejects' were trials on patients
with upper respiratory tract infection that had such positive results
in favour of homeopathy that they could not be 'trusted'.

So, the researchers were already convinced that homeopathy didn't work,
and so rejected trials that proved otherwise.  In fact, they said so.
When they set out to research homeopathy, they viewed it as
'implausible'.

After weeding out all the positive studies, they were left with just
eight trials - and all of them  'proved' homeopathy didn't work.

It's strange that the press and doctors have latched on to The Lancet
study, and ignored the many other major studies that had found in
favour of homeopathy.  The first major study took place 16 years ago at
Limburg University in Holland.  It was a two-year study that analysed
the findings of 105 clinical trials - and, of these, 81 found
homeopathy worked.

Eight years later, researchers from Munich University analysed 89
trials into homeopathy and concluded that it was more than 'twice as
good' as placebo, which makes it as effective as any pharmaceutical
drug.

HOMEOPATHY IS 'EXTREMELY SIGNIFICANT', SAYS EU STUDY EVERYONE IGNORED

The European Commission carried out its own research programme in 2000,
and with even more rigorous standards.  In the end they found just 17
out of 118 clinical trials that they felt were properly scientific -
and, from those 17 trials, concluded that homeopathy had an 'extremely
significant' effect.

Perhaps the most impressive trial in terms of size was carried out by
the Bristol Homeopathic Hospital in Bristol, England.  They studied the
progress of 23,000 patients between 1997 and 2003, and found that 70
per cent reported 'clinical improvement'.  More impressive still, most
patients had tried homeopathy only after conventional medicine had
failed them.  In other words, these were people with the most
difficult, intractable health issues.  The biggest effect was among
children, 80 per cent of whom reported a positive improvement from
conditions such as asthma, eczema, and depression.

THE TWO BIG ARGUMENTS AGAINST HOMEOPATHY

Homeopathy's critics always cite two arguments:  that the science
behind it is 'implausible', and so therefore it's impossible for it to
work, and any good effects are all in the mind.  Taking the second
argument first, homeopathy is very effective when given to animals, as
studies have demonstrated, which demonstrates that the placebo effect
is not an issue after all.

In one, pregnant pigs were given a homeopathic remedy to stop
stillbirths.  In the homeopathic group, the rate of stillbirths fell to
30 per cent compared to an 80 per cent rate in the control group that
was not given homeopathy.

In another study of mastitis in cows, those who had a homeopathic
remedy added to their water had a 3 per cent rate of mastitis compared
with 48 per cent in those not given the remedy.

The first argument is subtler still.  Effectively it states: 'It's
impossible for homeopathy to work, so therefore it doesn't'.  Prof
Colin Blakemore of the UK's Medical Research Council has stated: "If we
were to accept the principles of homeopathy we would have to overturn
the whole of physics and chemistry."

Precisely.  As you may know, science works according to 'paradigms'.
Anything that adds to, or supports, an existing paradigm is accepted as
science; that which refutes it is rejected as 'unscientific'.  In
other words, science is a self-defining system.

It was implausible that the Earth should revolve around the Sun, as
Galileo claimed, or that time was not an absolute, as Einstein
demonstrated.  In medicine, it was 'implausible' that a bug called
helicobacter pylori could cause ulcers, or that folic acid could
prevent neural-tube defects, but they did, and eventually the paradigm
shifted.

But there's a much bigger game at stake if we are to accept
homeopathy as an effective therapy.  It would mean that the way we
treat people is wrong, that we do not truly understand disease, and
indeed that human beings are not the mechanical pieces of flesh and
bone that doctors and drug companies believe us to be.

Source: WDDTY. July 2006

Thanks for reading this far

Ship
Shiperton Henethe

"The truth is out there - and it shall set you free"
HCN - 05 Jul 2006 21:59 GMT
> Hi
>
> Please excuse the cross-posting. But I recall a rather long and
> VITRIOLIC discussion about homeopathy that I started in these
> newsgroups back in 2003.
...

Just answer this question:

When Hahnemann created homeopathy in Germany about 200 years ago he had
deduced a few "miasms".  One of these miasms is the "syphillis miasm"... So
please tell me which remedy is better for the syphillis disease which is an
upswing in some urban areas... A specific homeopathic remedy (which one?) or
antibiotics?

Also, for your reading pleasure:  http://www.badhomeopath.com/
ship - 05 Jul 2006 23:44 GMT
> > Hi
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> upswing in some urban areas... A specific homeopathic remedy (which one?) or
> antibiotics?

Just because homeopathy doesnt work for certain illnesses doesnt mean
it doesnt work for any. Likewise for many illnesses it may be true to
say that by far the best results are obtained by using some treatment
other than homeopathy. But that still doesnt prove that homeopathy
doesn't work at all. In fact I would argue that it is, philosophically
at least, entirely irrelevant.

Thinking *practically*, of course is different. If you actually HAVE
syphillis, I suggest you  go and use antibiotics - I know I would! But
that still says nothing whatsoever about homeopathy.

Now, for all I know the early work on homeopathy may have gone down
some blind alleys.. and for all I know it may NOT. Maybe the best long
term resistance for the individual against a broad spectrum of diseases
is NOT to use antibiotics for syphillis.

So in conclusion I dont know the answer to your question. And although
it is a very *practical* question that you raise, you  do not address
the central question of whether or not there is any credible scientific
evidence that homeopathy has been shown to work by experiment... ...and
whether or not The Lancet has been lying to us.

So in a nutshell I dont know the answer but I dont think your response
is relevant to the question.

Level-headedly

Ship
Shiperton Henethe
HCN - 06 Jul 2006 07:49 GMT
>> > Hi
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Just because homeopathy doesnt work for certain illnesses doesnt mean
> it doesnt work for any.

WHOA.. WHOA... wait... Are you saying that homeopathy has LIMITS!!! Even for
things that Hahnemann said it was good for?

Likewise for many illnesses it may be true to
> say that by far the best results are obtained by using some treatment
> other than homeopathy. But that still doesnt prove that homeopathy
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> term resistance for the individual against a broad spectrum of diseases
> is NOT to use antibiotics for syphillis.

Do you have any clue what happens when syphillis is NOT treated?

Oh, wait... perhaps you are experiencing the tertiary stage of syphillis.

> So in conclusion I dont know the answer to your question. And although
> it is a very *practical* question that you raise, you  do not address
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Ship
> Shiperton Henethe
Mr. Natural-Health - 08 Jul 2006 06:34 GMT
> Just because homeopathy doesnt work for certain illnesses doesnt mean
> it doesnt work for any. Likewise for many illnesses it may be true to
> say that by far the best results are obtained by using some treatment
> other than homeopathy. But that still doesnt prove that homeopathy
> doesn't work at all. In fact I would argue that it is, philosophically
> at least, entirely irrelevant.

The problem with these ngs is that if you post a witty grin-and-bear-it
commit written about homeopathy back in 1859, some truly dumb-f.ck-wit
is going to bring up psychic surgery and whine how homeopathy is
dangerous for people with broken bones.

What is truly dangerous is how these Dumb-f.ck-Wits manage to even
breath.
2 - 08 Jul 2006 16:21 GMT
> [...]
> What is truly dangerous is how these Dumb-f.ck-Wits manage to even
> breath.

They manage by downloading the Breathing MP3 to their iPod: "Breath in...
Breath out..." in a loop.
HCN - 08 Jul 2006 18:11 GMT
>> [...]
>> What is truly dangerous is how these Dumb-f.ck-Wits manage to even
>> breath.
>
> They manage by downloading the Breathing MP3 to their iPod: "Breath in...
> Breath out..." in a loop.

Somehow most of us have managed better than that Gohde in keeping all of our
teeth.
NotImportant - 19 Jul 2006 04:16 GMT
> > Hi
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> upswing in some urban areas... A specific homeopathic remedy (which one?) or
> antibiotics?

    Syphillis miasm doesn't mean the disease syphillis. Miasm in
homoeopathy refers to the inherent disease tendency of the individual
from birth and this would generally cause the person to have certain
chronic ailment in his life.  Each miasm type is characterised by
certain personality type. For example those with syphillis miasm will
have the following personality type :

        "Syphlitic Miasm: strong pessimistic view on life, cannot
modify what is wrong, give-up, destroy, no point in trying to adjust,
sudden impulsive violence directed at himself or others, dictational
rigid ideas. Mental paralysis, mentally dull, suicidal, stupid,
stubborn, and homicidal."

      Homoeopathic medicine first started when Hanneman discovered the
similarity of symptons between quinone(sp?) and that of tuberculosis.
And yet such a disease that is caused by  a bacteria could be cured by
homoepathic remedy of quinone that is supposedly so diluted that it has
no active ingredient in it.

      Homoepathy do not kill the bug directly. It builds up the vital
force within the body and allow it to take care of itself. It is for
this reason that it has little or no side effects if it is done
properly.

     Consider the following 3 allopathic physicians who were
themselves very condemnatory towards homoeopathic medicine but later
had high regard for it.

   a. Dr.Constantine hering - He was commissioned by his lecturer
Dr.Rossi to write a thesis to condemn homoeopathy.  He became its
ardent supporter after a careful study of this system of healing. He
became known as the father of homoeopathy in the US.

    b. Dr.James Compton Burnett who was a brilliant student and his
professor of anatomy had advised him not to ruin his promising career
in allopathic medicine by going into homoeopathy. The reason he went in
to homoeopathy was what he saw in one section of the children's ward.
The percentage of death he saw in children treated allopathically was
high whereas those in the homoepathic wing became convalescent and went
home in a few days. When his professor advised him he replied "he could
not buy worldly honours at the cost of his conscience."

    c.  Dr.Mahendralal Sirkar. He was the vice-president of the
British Medical Association (Bengal Branch) and he had denounced
homoeopathy as quackery and yet he saw how easily Babu Rajendral Dutta,
a lay practitioner without any high sounding titles were able to cure
many diseases. He started looking into the homoeopathy and decided one
day to give up his lucrative allopatic practice. The BMA imposed a
boycott on him and in his reply he said, "Truth must be told, and truth
must be acted upon." He became a towering giant of homoeopathy in
India.

We must understand these folks are no ordinary fools we find on the
street or in the internet. They examplify integrity and conscient in
the midst of selfishness and narrow vested interests.  Their intellect
were some of the finest in their class. The difference between them and
the others was what was in their heart.

> Also, for your reading pleasure:  http://www.badhomeopath.com/
HCN - 19 Jul 2006 05:07 GMT
...>     Syphillis miasm doesn't mean the disease syphillis.

Actually it did when Hahnemann described it (I read it in the Organon).

Miasm in
> homoeopathy refers to the inherent disease tendency of the individual
> from birth and this would generally cause the person to have certain
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>       Homoeopathic medicine first started when Hanneman discovered the
> similarity of symptons between quinone(sp?)

No... he only "discovered" it because he had an allergic reaction to
quinine:
http://www.angelfire.com/mb2/quinine/allergy.html

and that of tuberculosis.
> And yet such a disease that is caused by  a bacteria could be cured by
> homoepathic remedy of quinone that is supposedly so diluted that it has
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> this reason that it has little or no side effects if it is done
> properly.

No it does not... especially since syphillis is NOT a virus.  It has little
or no side effects because it has NO ACTIVE ingredients.

...snip anecdotes...

> We must understand these folks are no ordinary fools we find on the
> street or in the internet. They examplify integrity and conscient in
> the midst of selfishness and narrow vested interests.  Their intellect
> were some of the finest in their class. The difference between them and
> the others was what was in their heart.

If you had a heart you would learn more about what homeopathy really is and
learn what real medicine is, especially if you were one of these folks
tested about preventive meds for malaria:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1UJ_qGZ24k

and to see what happens to real folks who followed the homeopath for
prevention of malaria:
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=11082104

>> Also, for your reading pleasure:  http://www.badhomeopath.com/
Rich - 19 Jul 2006 05:32 GMT
> ...>     Syphillis miasm doesn't mean the disease syphillis.
>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> prevention of malaria:
> http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=11082104

Speaking of syphilis and malaria, before antibiotics malaria was used as a
treatment for syphilis. The prolonged high fevers killed the syphilis
bacteria, and if the patient survived the malaria, the syphilis was
sometimes cured. An even more common syphilis treatment was mercury, an
element familiar to readers of this newsgroup. Arsenic was used as well.
Signature


--Rich

Recommended websites:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/

The Bad Homeopath - 19 Jul 2006 12:09 GMT
It's always nice to be recognised...

Do you ever get the feeling that this big scientist "conspiracy" to
"withhold truth from the masses" because homeopathy "knows things
science can't possibly know" is getting a bit thin now? Doesn't it bear
more than an uncanny resemblance to 9/11 or UFO or hollow earth
conspiracies?

In all my research, I have asked many, many homeopaths HOW it works and
I have received many, many answers. It seems that after 200 years, even
you don't know how it works.

If you asked 10,000 doctors (real doctors) how aspirin works, I can
guarantee you'll get 10,000 identical replies - not so for homeopathy.

If you can't figure out how it works after 200 years, if it's supposed
benefits, when empirically tested come out as nothing but a placebo
effect, and you can't even agree on it's mechanisms, short of invoking
mysterious "energies" or "life forces" that can't be measured, then
maybe it's time to get the strop out on Occam's Razor, because it sure
needs sharpening.

I recently took the Society of Homeopaths to task over some blatent
lies (yes, LIES) in their press releases and factsheets that they
issue. They replied with "Well, we know it works" and attached a short
list of scientific papers that showed some sort of effect.

I looked them up.

Every one - EVERY ONE was a questionnaire or a non blinded study,
conducted over a period of years, often by the same researchers and
their "stunning" conclusions were usually so statistically
insignificant that they had to inflate the use of language to get any
sort of response at all.

One of the papers had the audacity to claim that homeopathy helped
people get better after they had been discharged from hospitals where
they had received both mainstream and alternative medicines as part of
their treatment. The fact that these people had also recieved REAL
medicine seemed to escape the authors, as they attributed these cures
entirely to the homeopathy.

If this is the best, the absolute best that homeopaths can retort with
in the face of scientific scrutiny, then I'm afraid it's a dead duck,
it just doesn't realise it yet.

HCN wrote :

> Also, for your reading pleasure:  http://www.badhomeopath.com/
HCN - 20 Jul 2006 16:32 GMT
> It's always nice to be recognised...

Of course...  One guy thought it was MY page, but I deferred and explained
that you were studying through a mailorder program.

Hi!

> Do you ever get the feeling that this big scientist "conspiracy" to
> "withhold truth from the masses" because homeopathy "knows things
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
>> Also, for your reading pleasure:  http://www.badhomeopath.com/
NotImportant - 21 Jul 2006 15:29 GMT
> It's always nice to be recognised...

    There are bad homeopath as there are bad allopath 8-).

> Do you ever get the feeling that this big scientist "conspiracy" to
> "withhold truth from the masses" because homeopathy "knows things
> science can't possibly know" is getting a bit thin now? Doesn't it bear
> more than an uncanny resemblance to 9/11 or UFO or hollow earth
> conspiracies?

     Just look at how helicobacter pyroli bacteria found its way into
mainstream medical treatment and you could get a sense of the
conspiracy. The doctor who discovered it back in 1983 , inspite of
incontrovertible evidences of its role in stomach ulcers had to fight
tooth and nail with establish journals to publish his findings. It was
him - now considered a reputable scientist - who had made such a claim.

> In all my research, I have asked many, many homeopaths HOW it works and
> I have received many, many answers. It seems that after 200 years, even
> you don't know how it works.

      Not knowing how it works isn't the criteria for using it if it
actually works. Acupuncture was considered as voodoo magic by
westerners when they first saw how open heart surgery could be
conducted without anaesthetic and all was needed was a single needle
placed at the ear. Until today scientists still could not explain why
it works. Of course one explanation forward was "natural opiate" like
endophins where generated by the needle.  When you wear the spectacle
of "endohpins" all you could see is endohphins.  Part of the good
qualities of a good scientist is the ability to be able to remove this
spectacle and see the world anew.

       There are now very sophisticated models regarding for
acupuncture and with this model progress have been made in
understanding this strange phenomenon.

       Part of the difficulties in homoeopathy and for that matter
traditional cures such as those that came from tcm or ayurveda is the
lack of a working model. These systems of cure are wholistics and while
science is reductionistic. When you remove one element or just study
one element of these systems of cure you will never be able to get
repeatability.

> If you asked 10,000 doctors (real doctors) how aspirin works, I can
> guarantee you'll get 10,000 identical replies - not so for homeopathy.

     I was reading a book that made that statement and I decided to
look it up on the web and you can check this out

http://sciamdigital.com/index.cfm?fa=Products.ViewIssuePreview&ARTICLEID_CHAR=7A
35CF15-EF0C-43B4-97DB-C96DB0E3705


   This was in 1999 and in 2004 check this out.

http://www.med.unc.edu/isth/SSC/04sscminutes/04plateletphysiology.html.

   They are still struggling to understand how it works.  Aspirin was
discovered in the late 1890s. It has been more than 110 years now.

> If you can't figure out how it works after 200 years, if it's supposed
> benefits, when empirically tested come out as nothing but a placebo
> effect, and you can't even agree on it's mechanisms, short of invoking
> mysterious "energies" or "life forces" that can't be measured, then
> maybe it's time to get the strop out on Occam's Razor, because it sure
> needs sharpening.

    Occam's razor cuts both ways 8-).  Homoeopathic remedy accept just
as in tcm or ayurveda that disease mostly begin from the mind. If
placebo produce more cure than actual drugs then isn't placebo the cure
itself ?   Because homoeopathic medicine recognises the role of the
mind, just as allopathic medicine are beginning to recognise it today
(psycho-somatic , psycho-neuro, psycho-physico are some of the modern
day derivatives),  its remedy IF properly chosen and analysed will
produce effects beyond the placebo.

    Just because you do not know what to look for doesn't mean that
there isn't something there to begin with. If you have understood
science you will realise one simple fact and i.e. if you ask the wrong
question, even if the answer is correct, it will be wrong. When your
mind is so wrapped up in pouring scorn onto homoepathy you could not
see the obvious.
      Consider the following excerpts taken from "ECH General
Assembly-XVIII Symposium of GIRI, 12-14th November 2004 , Scientific
Report".

"Professor Louis Rey, Doctor of Sciences, Lausanne, a specialist in low
temperature thermoluminescence, has published on this topic in the
international journals Nature (1988; 391: 418) and C.R.Physique(2000;
1: 107-110). He presented the latest resultf
of the experiments he carried out together with Dr. Phillipe Belon on
the thermoluminescence of ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and
sodium chloride. Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium
chloride(10^-30 g cm^-3) were irradiated with
X- and gamma-rays at 77K, then pregressively re-warmed to room
temperature. During that phase, their thermoluminescence was studied
and it was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro
number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved
initially. Much to the author's surprise, the experimental results
showed, without ambiguity, the specificity of the contained
information. The findings proved to be reproducible in the course of
many different identical experiments. As a working hypothesis, the
researchers propose that this phenomenon results from a marked
structural change in the hydrogen bond network initiated at the onset
by the presence of the dissolved ions and maintained in the course of
the dilution process, probabbly due to the successive vigorous
mechanical stirrings . (Physica 2003; A323:67-74)"

   There were also some studies done using kirlian photography and the
result was very interesting.

> I recently took the Society of Homeopaths to task over some blatent
> lies (yes, LIES) in their press releases and factsheets that they
> issue. They replied with "Well, we know it works" and attached a short
> list of scientific papers that showed some sort of effect.
>
> I looked them up.

      So what was the lies that they had put out. I am really
interested to know. Since you have look it up do share with us your
revelation. I'm actually very new at this and I'm at the discovery
stage so I'm very keen to know what you have found.

> Every one - EVERY ONE was a questionnaire or a non blinded study,
> conducted over a period of years, often by the same researchers and
> their "stunning" conclusions were usually so statistically
> insignificant that they had to inflate the use of language to get any
> sort of response at all.

      There are 2 questions that needed to be answered. The first is
whether homoeopathy similia similibus phenomenon exists and if it does
what is the underlying phenomenon or working principles that allow it
to work.

      The discovery of the underlying working principles such as the
above thermoluminescence experiment do not require double blind.
However double blind is needed when we want to test a SINGLE factor
that could contribute towards a cure or not. Its value, if you don't
know already, is the removal of the placebo effect. Until and unless
you understand the wholistic nature of homoeopathy and the
reductionistic nature of science and its limitation you will forever be
doubly blinded.

      Homoeopathy is a very individualised modality. If this facet is
not taken into consideration and if we are looking for broad stroke
remedy and result then you are climbing up the wrong tree. Having said
this there have been some very credible studies to demonstrate that
homoeopathy does work. Again the conclusion from the above symposium -

"Experiments (those quoted in the report) are well conducted, in
controlled conditions, with a sufficient number of plants, animals or
cells, and with a fair statistical treatment. The facts are
indisputable, statistically significant and reproducible, even if they
cannot be explained using molecular paradigm."

   We often forget that in the face of facts, we have to chuck out the
theory and formulate a new one or modify the old. What you are
suggesting is that we throw out the facts and continue with the
allopathic theory/model of healing.

> One of the papers had the audacity to claim that homeopathy helped
> people get better after they had been discharged from hospitals where
> they had received both mainstream and alternative medicines as part of
> their treatment. The fact that these people had also recieved REAL
> medicine seemed to escape the authors, as they attributed these cures
> entirely to the homeopathy.

      You may not know it but homoeopathic physicians are often the
last hope for many patients. Patients who have been to allopathic
physicians but have found no relief or relief that cause other
problems. Because of this many homoeopathic physicians have a much more
difficult task of restoring health to the patient.

     One allopathic doctor, I think (I can't remember exactly where I
read this from) had said that the greatest cause of disease today are
allopathic doctors. Some social statistics were presented from
traditional societies who in the past have very low incidences of heart
disease or cancer and suddenly found and explosion of these diseases
after adopting allopathic medicine.

> If this is the best, the absolute best that homeopaths can retort with
> in the face of scientific scrutiny, then I'm afraid it's a dead duck,
> it just doesn't realise it yet.

    I have tried to present a reasoned and considered view and had
presented quite a substantial amount of research I had done on the
subject. But all I have read from you are a lot of rhetorics and
unnecessary ramblings. When you are short on substance and long on
rhetoric you will do well , with an open mind and heart, to look
carefully at this wonderfull healing art.

     Let's see what another guy whom you will agree with me is not
your regular fool from the street or the internet .

      "Homeopathy. . . cures a larger percentage of cases than any
other method of treatment and is beyond all doubt safer, more
economical, and the most complete medical science."

     And the gentleman who said this was no other than Mahatma Gandhi.

    The french gov. some years back also took notice and had looked
into the matter and today 50% of the population in france use
homoeopatic physicians.

    Take care and who knows one day you may be using homoeopathic
remedy and your allopatic doctor doesn't even know it. It's OK he/she
will charge you allopatic charges 8-).

     Btw. I'm not here to win any debate.  Discourse, debate, forum
etc. are for us to come to a better understanding of the situation.
When everyone have a better understanding all of us win.  All of us
lose when we wrap our ego around words, concepts and ideas within our
cranium 8-).
Mark Probert - 21 Jul 2006 23:14 GMT
>> It's always nice to be recognised...
>>
>      There are bad homeopath as there are bad allopath 8-).

No-no-no-no-no. In Altmed, there is no such thing as a good conventional
doctor.

Note that the term "allopath" is an epithet used by AltMedders.

I deleted the rest, since it was not important.
David Wright - 22 Jul 2006 23:09 GMT
>> It's always nice to be recognised...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>tooth and nail with establish journals to publish his findings. It was
>him - now considered a reputable scientist - who had made such a claim.

He's not just "considered a reputable scientist," he's got the Nobel
Prize.  And he didn't receive the kind of resistance you're claiming
he did, either.  He wasn't believed at first, but it really didn't
take long for his idea to be accepted.

>       Not knowing how it works isn't the criteria for using it if it
>actually works. Acupuncture was considered as voodoo magic by
>westerners when they first saw how open heart surgery could be
>conducted without anaesthetic and all was needed was a single needle
>placed at the ear.

Brain surgery, maybe.  Open heart surgery?  I don't recall that one.
But even when they showed it to Nixon in 1972, they were using
anesthetics, too.

>        There are now very sophisticated models regarding for
>acupuncture and with this model progress have been made in
>understanding this strange phenomenon.

It's still not really accepted in many quarters and it's ability
to kill pain (or do other things) is limited.

>    There were also some studies done using kirlian photography and the
>result was very interesting.

Kirlian photography is just corona effect.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
Mr. Natural-Health - 23 Jul 2006 12:28 GMT
> Kirlian photography is just corona effect.

Science Geeks are just fundamentally rotten human beings.

Who says so? I do.
cathyb - 23 Jul 2006 12:43 GMT
> > Kirlian photography is just corona effect.
>
> Science Geeks are just fundamentally rotten human beings.
>
> Who says so? I do.

Yes, but since you are someone who has said what follows, you'll
forgive us for not giving a monkey's for your opinion, you vile little
bigot:

"Hope you get your throat cut by a nice little nigger, too.  You
certainly are asking for it."

And
http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.politics/msg/5ce8e8f7c16e7ad0?dmode=source

"> >                                     *ALL OF HUMANITY WROTE*:

> >       YOU *NIGGERS* ARE THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE WORLD!!!
> >   YOU ARE THE *DUMBEST FERAL ANIMALS* ON THE f.cking PLANET!
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

A couple of interesting and funny websites. Sadly, we continue to
suffer from the presence of the negro variety of homo sapiens.

John"
Doc John - 23 Jul 2006 14:16 GMT
>http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.politics/msg/5ce8e8f7c16e7ad0?dmode=source
> "> >                                     *ALL OF HUMANITY WROTE*:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > >            *WHY DO *NIGGERS* REJECT THEIR*ALBINO* BROTHERS*?
> > >                              *AXE ME BOUTS DEM EBONIKS*

Don't look now, but CathyBrainless just used the N-word.  Could be why
Cathy is Brainless? Speaking of Science Geeks who are just
fundamentally rotten human beings, CathyBrainless comes to my mine. :)

What is the matter CathyBrainless, never in your life have you ever
come across a group of totally dysfunctional people who would kill
others for absolutely no logical reason?

Your ignorance has my condolences.

Let us not forget. CathyBrainless, about the crimes against humanity
committed in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1563470,00.html
cathyb - 23 Jul 2006 14:33 GMT
> >http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.politics/msg/5ce8e8f7c16e7ad0?dmode=source
> > "> >                                     *ALL OF HUMANITY WROTE*:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Don't look now, but CathyBrainless just used the N-word.

>  Could be why
> Cathy is Brainless? Speaking of Science Geeks who are just
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Your ignorance has my condolences.

Well, thank you, Gohde, for proving my point that the opinion of
someone as vile and trashy as you is of no significance to anybody.

To repeat, "Doc John", a delightful example of the scum of the earth,
has said:
"Hope you get your throat cut by a nice little nigger, too.  You
certainly are asking for it."

And
http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.politics/msg/5ce8e8f7c16e7ad0?d...

"> >                                     *ALL OF HUMANITY WROTE*:

> >       YOU *NIGGERS* ARE THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE WORLD!!!
> >   YOU ARE THE *DUMBEST FERAL ANIMALS* ON THE f.cking PLANET!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >            *WHY DO *NIGGERS* REJECT THEIR*ALBINO* BROTHERS*?
> >                              *AXE ME BOUTS DEM EBONIKS*

> *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

A couple of interesting and funny websites. Sadly, we continue to
suffer from the presence of the negro variety of homo sapiens.

John"

> Let us not forget. CathyBrainless, about the crimes against humanity
> committed in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1563470,00.html
Doc John - 23 Jul 2006 15:21 GMT
> > >*NIGGERS* ARE THE *ROOT* OF ALL EVIL
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Well, thank you, ..., for proving my point that the opinion of
> someone as vile and trashy as you is of no significance to anybody.

What is totally of no significance is CathyBrainless's insistence on
adding the N-word to this THREAD.

Just thought that CathyBrainless might want to know. :)
cathyb - 23 Jul 2006 15:46 GMT
<snip>

> What is totally of no significance is CathyBrainless's insistence on
> adding the N-word to this THREAD.
>
> Just thought that CathyBrainless might want to know. :)

Oh, I'm afraid that you and vernon are the only people stupid enough to
think that demonstrating that you are a vile piece of scum is a sin in
and of itself. I've never personally used the word "nigger" other than
when quoting scum like you. And I think that when you call people
"fundamentally rotten human beings" simply for being more intelligent
than you, as you did in this thread, it's certainly apposite to bring
up the fact that you are a person capable of saying:

"Hope you get your throat cut by a nice little nigger, too.  You
certainly are asking for it."

And
http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.politics/msg/5ce8e8f7c16e7ad0?d...

"> >                                     *ALL OF HUMANITY WROTE*:

> >       YOU *NIGGERS* ARE THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE WORLD!!!
> >   YOU ARE THE *DUMBEST FERAL ANIMALS* ON THE f.cking PLANET!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >            *WHY DO *NIGGERS* REJECT THEIR*ALBINO* BROTHERS*?
> >                              *AXE ME BOUTS DEM EBONIKS*

> *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

A couple of interesting and funny websites. Sadly, we continue to
suffer from the presence of the negro variety of homo sapiens.

John"
cathyb - 23 Jul 2006 15:46 GMT
<snip>

> What is totally of no significance is CathyBrainless's insistence on
> adding the N-word to this THREAD.
>
> Just thought that CathyBrainless might want to know. :)

Oh, I'm afraid that you and vernon are the only people stupid enough to
think that demonstrating that you are a vile piece of scum is a sin in
and of itself. I've never personally used the word "nigger" other than
when quoting scum like you. And I think that when you call people
"fundamentally rotten human beings" simply for being more intelligent
than you, as you did in this thread, it's certainly apposite to bring
up the fact that you are a person capable of saying:

"Hope you get your throat cut by a nice little nigger, too.  You
certainly are asking for it."

And
http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.politics/msg/5ce8e8f7c16e7ad0?d...

"> >                                     *ALL OF HUMANITY WROTE*:

> >       YOU *NIGGERS* ARE THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE WORLD!!!
> >   YOU ARE THE *DUMBEST FERAL ANIMALS* ON THE f.cking PLANET!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >            *WHY DO *NIGGERS* REJECT THEIR*ALBINO* BROTHERS*?
> >                              *AXE ME BOUTS DEM EBONIKS*

> *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

A couple of interesting and funny websites. Sadly, we continue to
suffer from the presence of the negro variety of homo sapiens.

John"
Doc John - 23 Jul 2006 15:55 GMT
> > What is totally of no significance is CathyBrainless's insistence on
> > adding the N-word to this THREAD.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> think that demonstrating that you are a vile piece of scum is a sin in
> and of itself.

Take six Valium, and if you are still breathing, call me in the
morning.
--
Doc John
cathyb - 23 Jul 2006 16:00 GMT
> > > What is totally of no significance is CathyBrainless's insistence on
> > > adding the N-word to this THREAD.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> --
> Doc John

Oh dear, you appear to be under the impression that you are a real
doctor, instead of a thick, ignorant, racist piece of scum of the type
the rest of us would scrape from our shoes with a wince.
Rich - 23 Jul 2006 19:04 GMT
>> > > What is totally of no significance is CathyBrainless's insistence on
>> > > adding the N-word to this THREAD.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> doctor, instead of a thick, ignorant, racist piece of scum of the type
> the rest of us would scrape from our shoes with a wince.

No danger of mistaking JG for a real doctor. To begin with, any real doctor
would know that six Valium is far from a lethal dose. That would be only
60mg of a drug that has an LD 50 of about five grams, or about 50 tablets.
Even that is just a rough estimate, because deaths from overdose of Valium
alone are so rare that the lethal dose is not well established and is based
primarily on mouse models.
Signature


--Rich

Recommended websites:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/

Mr. Natural-Health - 23 Jul 2006 23:59 GMT
> > Oh dear, you appear to be under the impression that you are a real
> > doctor, instead of a thick, ignorant, racist piece of scum of the type
> > the rest of us would scrape from our shoes with a wince.
>
> No danger of mistaking JG for a real doctor.

Doc stands for Doc.  While Dr. stands for Doctor.

Just thought that the morons might want to know. :)
Doc John - 23 Jul 2006 23:53 GMT
David Wright wrote:
> In article <1153654133.578228.126070@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> Mr. Natural-Health <johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Just thought you might want to know.

Lookie, what the cat dragged in?  Science scum!!!

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!  Wr. Wrong is always good for a good laugh!

Who says so?  I do.
David Wright - 24 Jul 2006 04:52 GMT
>David Wright wrote:
>> In article <1153654133.578228.126070@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Who says so?  I do.

And you're your own greatest admirer.  In fact, you're the only one.

Just thought you might want to know how utterly pathetic you are.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
David Wright - 23 Jul 2006 20:32 GMT
>> Kirlian photography is just corona effect.
>
>Science Geeks are just fundamentally rotten human beings.
>
>Who says so? I do.

But since you have no credibility, it doesn't matter what you say.

Just thought you might want to know.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
NotImportant - 24 Jul 2006 07:28 GMT
> >> It's always nice to be recognised...
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> he did, either.  He wasn't believed at first, but it really didn't
> take long for his idea to be accepted.

     How long ?  Do you know ?    I saw the documentary that traced
his campaign against the established and self-serving community of
physicians and researchers.

     There was also a program that followed after that and it revealed
the extend of lies and deceptions in the race for recognition and
research dollars.  It's better to serve the paymaster that writes the
cheque seems to be the motto of many researchers.

> >       Not knowing how it works isn't the criteria for using it if it
> >actually works. Acupuncture was considered as voodoo magic by
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> But even when they showed it to Nixon in 1972, they were using
> anesthetics, too.

     You must be kidding.   In the face of such a public display of
what acupuncture could do all you you could come up with was that they
used anaesthetics ? Praytell where on God's green earth(slightly
tarnished now) you got that from ?

> >        There are now very sophisticated models regarding for
> >acupuncture and with this model progress have been made in
> >understanding this strange phenomenon.
>
> It's still not really accepted in many quarters and it's ability
> to kill pain (or do other things) is limited.

      Praytell where did you get this from ?

> >    There were also some studies done using kirlian photography and the
> >result was very interesting.
>
> Kirlian photography is just corona effect.

   Clap!clap!clap! .... you are so clever. And your point being ?
Tell us what else you know about kirlian photography other than the
corona effect.  It is important that you understand how it works
otherwise we would be wasting our time.

    The study wasn't a control study or a randomised test. The chap
just want to see if high potency (aka high dilution) water has the same
kirlian photographic signature as the physiological dosage.

   Check this out. It's in german, I think. Scroll to the end of the
page.

      http://www.homoeopathie-basel.ch/infobroschuere_homoeopathie.htm

   And also check this out on bio-resonance.

      http://www.hpathy.com/philosophy/seebauer-resonance.asp

    And also check this very comprehensive and controlled study.

      http://lkm.fri.uni-lj.si/xaigor/slo/znanclanki/instrumental.htm

    Instead of throwing back one-liners perhaps you should take some
time to read these articles and we can discuss the merit or demerit of
the study.  Purpose of forum and discussion is to come to a better
understanding and not to get some sick emotional jollys.
Happy Dog - 24 Jul 2006 19:23 GMT
"NotImportant" <chiongguo@gmail.com>
>> >      Just look at how helicobacter pyroli bacteria found its way into
>> >mainstream medical treatment and you could get a sense of the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> his campaign against the established and self-serving community of
> physicians and researchers.

The facts are this:

Marshall announced his research at a meeting of the Australian College of
Physicians in October of
1982.  The "medical establishment" reacted with skepticism, true.  And what
did they do about it?  They went about trying to replicate (and either
confirm or negate) Marshall's claims.  The result was that they showed that
he was correct and treatment of ulcers with antibiotics became mainstream
within seven years.  Not exactly "Gallileo", huh?  It's amusing that
alternative hypsters use the example of Marshall as part of their arsenal in
the constant battle against evidence based medicine.

>      There was also a program that followed after that and it revealed
> the extend of lies and deceptions in the race for recognition and
> research dollars.  It's better to serve the paymaster that writes the
> cheque seems to be the motto of many researchers.

There are also programs about ongoing solid evidence of UFOs.  So what.  The
facts, in this case, show your beliefs to be incorrect.

>> >       Not knowing how it works isn't the criteria for using it if it
>> >actually works. Acupuncture was considered as voodoo magic by
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> corona effect.  It is important that you understand how it works
> otherwise we would be wasting our time.

There is no mystery as to what's happening with Kirlian Photography.  It's
simply the effect of a corona discharge on photographic emulsion.

>     The study wasn't a control study or a randomised test. The chap
> just want to see if high potency (aka high dilution) water has the same
> kirlian photographic signature as the physiological dosage.
>
>    Check this out. It's in german, I think. Scroll to the end of the
> page.

I've looked at this stuff for years.  It's crap.  To date, not a single
experimenter has been able to demonstrate the ability to distinguish between
a "potentized" remedy (>11C) and the original dilute.  And that's,
effectively what all these guys are claiming.  Doesn't that bother you?
Tell me, is there a fringe science claim that you do NOT believe?

moo
NotImportant - 25 Jul 2006 10:46 GMT
> "NotImportant" <chiongguo@gmail.com>

> >      How long ?  Do you know ?    I saw the documentary that traced
> > his campaign against the established and self-serving community of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> he was correct and treatment of ulcers with antibiotics became mainstream
> within seven years.

    I'm not too sure where you got your facts but a little digging
revealed the following.

 1979 - Robin Warren rediscovered helicobacter bacteria. He was the
guy who shared the nobel prize with marshall.

  1981 - Robin continued the research with Marshal.
  1982 - Made initial findings public.
  1983 - Lancet published first result
   ............... a lot of problems in between ..............
   1994  National Institute of Health issued a general guideline.

   That's 12 years. I think it is not important how long he got there
but how he finally got there. The resistance he had to face was
tremendous. The program I refered to and it was so long ago was a
highly reputable science program with many notable scientists appearing
on the show.  It was a US program. It would be interesting if his
journey to gain recognition is now re-featured so that aspiring
scientists can see for themselves the obstacles they have to face
against established self-interest when they have in their possesion the
simple truth.

> Not exactly "Gallileo", huh?  It's amusing that

    No ...Galileo had to face ignorance and prejudices and of course a
lot of power play and self-interests of the church which was closely
tied up with the king.

    But today's scientists if they have found something that will
shake the foundation of self-interests of big government and big
businesses then science will be used against him. Indeed almost
anything will be thrown at hime to shut him up or to discredit him.
The fight with the tobacco industry is another case in point. How much
bad science and bad scientists were used to suppressed good people and
good science ?

> alternative hypsters use the example of Marshall as part of their arsenal in
> the constant battle against evidence based medicine.

     I've never read of or heard of it being used by hypesters 8-). I
only use it because it was so relevant to what was being discuss here.
I've just taken an interest in the subject and for the past 2 months or
so I have done almost nothing else but to look at all these evidences
objectively.  I'm semi-retired and I'm not a homoeopathic practitioner
or doctor.

       So I call it as I see it.  My background is in science and I
know the basis of objective evaluation.

> >      There was also a program that followed after that and it revealed
> > the extend of lies and deceptions in the race for recognition and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> There are also programs about ongoing solid evidence of UFOs.  So what.  The
> facts, in this case, show your beliefs to be incorrect.

     I think the facts I had presented showed that your facts were
flawed 8-).

    The program was a very credible science program. If I remember
correctly it was horizon.

> >    Clap!clap!clap! .... you are so clever. And your point being ?
> > Tell us what else you know about kirlian photography other than the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> There is no mystery as to what's happening with Kirlian Photography.  It's
> simply the effect of a corona discharge on photographic emulsion.

      Is that all it is ?   If I put a leaf in front of it I get one
picture. If I put a dead leaf in front of it I get a different picture.
Arent' you interested in knowing why there is such a difference ?

    The website I cited in a parallel thread showed that if I put
water with an active ingredient in it I get a particular picture. If I
keep diluting it I get almost the same pattern but the intensity and
certain regions becoming greater. Even at 30C where there supposed to
be devoid of anything but water it still show the same kirlian
photographic signature.

    So is it just simple corona discharge ?

> >     The study wasn't a control study or a randomised test. The chap
> > just want to see if high potency (aka high dilution) water has the same
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> effectively what all these guys are claiming.  Doesn't that bother you?
> Tell me, is there a fringe science claim that you do NOT believe?

     How about the study I had cited ?  Did you even look at it or are
you just shooting from the hip arrogantly believing that you already
know what it is going to say ?

     Let me tell you a little story on prejudices. There was once a
small arrogant little twit who went round telling everybody that they
stink. Every room he went to, every shop he went to he would complain
that it stinks. When he reached home he told his mom that she stinks.

     The mom took a piece of wet cloth and wiped his nose. And in an
instant the boy did not smell anything any more and the world again
smelt nice 8-).  The boy accidentally pick up some dog poo in the
playground and had rubbed his nose.

    So be very careful with what you pick up from the environment.

> moo
Happy Dog - 25 Jul 2006 15:17 GMT
"NotImportant" <chiongguo@gmail.com> wrote in
>> Marshall announced his research at a meeting of the Australian College of
>> Physicians in October of 1982.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> against established self-interest when they have in their possesion the
> simple truth.

The "simple truth" ain't useful truth until it can be reliably demonstrated.
It took only five years for that to happen in this case.  Antibiotic therapy
was accepted and commonly used by 1990.  Weird claim to mainstream practice
in 8 years?  That's not bad.  And Marshall got a Nobel and a cozy
appointment in America.

In your haste to trash all evidence-based medicine, you miss the fact that
there will always be an issue with ways to treat *limited* evidence of
efficacy.  If something shouldn't work, based on prior knowledge, it will
always take more rigorous examination (read "longer") before it's accepted.
You think that's a bad thing?  I doubt it.  Every time something is accepted
too sone, you guys blame the process.  Can't have it both ways, darling.

>> Not exactly "Gallileo", huh?  It's amusing that
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> bad science and bad scientists were used to suppressed good people and
> good science ?

Or evolution.  Those were strictly legal battles.  There was solid evidence
that smoking was harmful, and this was accepted by the scientific community,
many decades ago.

>> alternative hypsters use the example of Marshall as part of their arsenal
>> in
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>        So I call it as I see it.  My background is in science and I
> know the basis of objective evaluation.

Then you should have a working knowledge of Bayes Theorem.

>      I think the facts I had presented showed that your facts were
> flawed 8-).
>
>     The program was a very credible science program. If I remember
> correctly it was horizon.

"Very credible" science programs routinely spew crap.  This appears to be
the case here.

>> There is no mystery as to what's happening with Kirlian Photography.
>> It's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> picture. If I put a dead leaf in front of it I get a different picture.
> Arent' you interested in knowing why there is such a difference ?

Live specimens and dead ones are chemically different.  So they conduct
electricity in different ways.  This is news?  You have a background in
science?

>     The website I cited in a parallel thread showed that if I put
> water with an active ingredient in it I get a particular picture. If I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>     So is it just simple corona discharge ?

Yes.  And, again, I note that nobody seems to be able to replicate these
astounding results.  There are huge financial rewards and world fame for the
person who can.  But they never seem to be particularly interested in
seriously going for it.

>> I've looked at this stuff for years.  It's crap.  To date, not a single
>> experimenter has been able to demonstrate the ability to distinguish
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> you just shooting from the hip arrogantly believing that you already
> know what it is going to say ?

It's crap.  Not replicated when such replication should be easy.  Similar to
other crank claims like perpetual motion machines.  Doesn't this bother you?

>      Let me tell you a little story on prejudices. There was once a
> small arrogant little twit who went round telling everybody that they
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>     So be very careful with what you pick up from the environment.

Like most alternative medicine promoters, instead of arguing the facts, you
drift off into social commentary.  Boring.

Tell us, what fringe or alternative claims have you dismissed using your
"scientific background"?    I expect you can't name any without some serious
dancing.

moo
Peter Bowditch - 25 Jul 2006 22:24 GMT
>My background is in science

That's a homeopathy true believer speaking. It must be a long way in
the background. Over the far horizon, in fact.
Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
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To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

NotImportant - 21 Jul 2006 05:40 GMT
> ...>     Syphillis miasm doesn't mean the disease syphillis.
>
> Actually it did when Hahnemann described it (I read it in the Organon).
>
> Miasm in

     I think, and I'm guessing, that you were confused between the
disease syphillis and the symptoms exhibited that are similar to
syphillis. People who have syphillis miasm tended to have boils, pus
etc. when their vital force is weakened or is diseased at various parts
of the body.

> >       Homoeopathic medicine first started when Hanneman discovered the
> > similarity of symptons between quinone(sp?)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> and that of tuberculosis.

   Yes of course. But he went on to prove the efficacy of the
substance albeit in a much lower dosage. He found by progressively
reducing the concentration the potencies actually went up.  So what
exactly is your point ?

> > And yet such a disease that is caused by  a bacteria could be cured by
> > homoepathic remedy of quinone that is supposedly so diluted that it has
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> No it does not... especially since syphillis is NOT a virus.  It has little
> or no side effects because it has NO ACTIVE ingredients.

     I never said that syphillis is a virus. But which part of what I
had said about homoeopathic modality that you find objectionable, other
than the low potencies ?

    Granted that there is no active ingredient in many of the
homoeopathic remedies but this doesn't stop homoeopathic physicians
from using physiological dosage as well. But this is very rare and
unnecessary. Indeed homoeopathic medicine, as conceived by hahneman,
did not exclude allopathic remedy. He openly acknowledged that in many
situations allopathic medicine do have a part to play.

      Consider the opinion of Dr.Von Grauvogi who wrote in 1845 in the
preface of a homoeopathic medicine textbook - "If homoeopathy should
seek to treat all cases and every case simply and solely according to
the law of similarity, it would fall into the same error as allopathy.
Hence, these sciences are no contrasts in the sense of opposition, but
rather complements of each other".

> ...snip anecdotes...
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> tested about preventive meds for malaria:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1UJ_qGZ24k

   I'm afraid I can't download this short movie clip. The server was
serving it up in drips.
But 2 observation came to mind. The first is that you shouldn't take
such trivials as a reflection of the efficacy homoeopathic medicine.
The medicine being tested could actually be allopathic medicine but
because it failed someone decided to plaster the homoeopathic label on
to it.

   Secondly homoeopathy medicine seldom talk about prevention of a
particular symptom. However I have read some studies by RECENT
researchers who are thinking of using the similia principles to PREVENT
a set of disease symptoms. They found some success in mice, I think.
But this is NOT homoeopathy. It's someone trying to make some quick
buck from the rising popularity of this treatment modality.

    However if homoeopathic remedy was used and as you had claimed
that there's no active ingredient in the preparation then there's
actually no side-effects as had been portrayed in the movie(glean from
the title). So think a bit first before accepting and concluding.

> and to see what happens to real folks who followed the homeopath for
> prevention of malaria:
> http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=11082104

     The editor of this article was being dishonest and delibrately
misleading.

    Ledum palustre - is used as a CURE and not as a prevention.
    Malaria officinalis - again this is a CURE and not a prevention.

   Check up any good material medicina.

    If these are the basis of your antagonism towards homoeopathy then
I truly feel sorry for you and you should do well to follow your own
advice to me. I love science and the many wonderful discoveries it had
found and for that reason I used to follow their development closely
through various journals. But what I have found also over the years are
the fraud and deception that are perpetuated in the name of science
that are motivated by big profits from big companies. Science and the
reporting mechanism have been corrupted to influence the general
population. While there's an inherent self-checking mechanism it takes
a long time and a lot of money for such fraud and deception to be found
and detected. When you do not have money you will go no where.
Helicobacter pylori bacteria is a good case in point.

    Again if you understand homoeopathy treatment modality at all you
will know that it doesn't treat pathology but symptomology. And it is
NOT only symptoms from the disease that is used. The process of
uncovering the right remedy is a time-consuming one where the totality
of symptoms from mental, physical (whole body), emotional are used as
well as the aggravations and ameliorations of symptoms are considered.
It is the totality of symptoms that points us to the right remedy.

    If you look under diarrhoea in a repertory you will find about 2
or 3 pages of symptoms that you have to consider before a particular
remedy can be prescribed. Allopathy will just prescribe an
anti-diarrhoea pill or medicine.  Homoeopathy cures while allopathy
suppresses.

     Now perhaps you know why homoeopaths don't make much money 8-).

> >> Also, for your reading pleasure:  http://www.badhomeopath.com/

   There are of course badhomoeopaths as there are badallopaths. So
what is your point ?    Are you now accepting that homopathic modality
is a valid modality ?

    One thing seem clear to me in just a short exploration into this
healing art is that I have found a number of books and websites whereby
remedies are prescribed according to disease rather than symptoms and
this will inevitably become like allopathic big business. The cure rate
will also go down dramatically.

     Hahnemann did say that prescribing according to disease can be
considered during emergencies but for most others the time needed to
understand the patients is a very important part of the homoepathic
physicians responsibility.
Doc John - 20 Jul 2006 05:06 GMT
I came across some credible information that diet reform started from
homeopathy. And, that the physics of homeopathy came from Samuel
Hahnemann's position against coffee.  His method of using more and more
dilution was an effective method of breaking coffee/caffeine addiction.

His _Organon der Heilkunst_ was all about preventing the lost of vital
fluids.  Stimulants, like coffee, promoted sex.  And, sex was bad
because it wasted vital bodily fluids. Which in a convoluted way was
responsible for diet reform.

So, people who eat a plant based diet in the Western world have Samuel
Hahnemann to thank.

While this theory is about as preposterous a yarn as I have heard, it
rings true in many respects.

Just thought that you might not want to be too quick to knock Samuel
Hahnemann's theory for treating coffee/caffeine addiction.
cathyb - 20 Jul 2006 05:27 GMT
> I came across some credible information that diet reform started from
> homeopathy. And, that the physics of homeopathy

Do describe the physics of homeopathy. Everyone likes a laugh.

> came from Samuel
> Hahnemann's position against coffee.  His method of using more and more
> dilution was an effective method of breaking coffee/caffeine addiction.

So you're saying that to get people off a caffeine addiction you use
less and less caffeine? Which would imply that the less caffeine you
use, the smaller the effect. Which contradicts the principles of
homeopathy.

> His _Organon der Heilkunst_ was all about preventing the lost of vital
> fluids.  Stimulants, like coffee, promoted sex.  And, sex was bad
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So, people who eat a plant based diet in the Western world have Samuel
> Hahnemann to thank.

You're aware that you just said absolutely nothing that made any sense?

> While this theory is about as preposterous a yarn

Gosh, you just said at the beginning of your post that "I came across
some credible information " Now you say it's preposterous.

>as I have heard, it
> rings true in many respects.

Why?

> Just thought that you might not want to be too quick to knock Samuel
> Hahnemann's theory for treating coffee/caffeine addiction.

Which, as you've described it, has nothing to do with homeopathy.
Doc John - 20 Jul 2006 15:55 GMT
> > I came across some credible information that diet reform started from
> > homeopathy. And, that the physics of homeopathy
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Which, as you've described it, has nothing to do with homeopathy.

Are you a naturally born retard?  What exactly is your problem?  Unable
to concentrate for more than 5 minutes?

I was posing a serious academic / historical question, here.

The term "homeopathy" was coined by Samuel Hahnemann (1755-1843) and
first appeared in print in 1807.

I was referring to _Treatise on the Effects of Coffee_ (23 pages),
written in 1803 by Samuel Hahnemann, translated by William LaMartine
Breyfogle in 1824.

And, to Hahnemann's _Organon der Heilkunst_ (1810) which explains the
theory of homeopathic medicine. This book talked about both "vital
powers" and the importance of preserving "vital fluids."

So, for the mentally challenged on these ngs, Hahnemann's position on
coffee predated his development of  homeopathy.  And, thus, homeopathy
could in fact be based on a very scientific basis namely an effective
treatment for coffee addiction.

Again for the mentally challenged on these ngs, Coffee was beginning to
be viewed as a poison.  The basis for the coffee poison theory of
Hahnemann, Kellogg, and many others was that caffeine, isolated in
1820, was an alkaloid which was viewed by these people to be in the
same class of drugs as opium.

Ergo, the coffee connection could ultimately have been responsible for
dietary reform in the USA, for those of you with half a brain.  And,
that the popular 19th century sexual prohibition against the
consumption of coffee and tea as a stimulant/caffeine that excited
sexual activity; can in fact be ultimately traced back to homeopathy.

I realize that this theory is too much for A-Hole Science Geeks like
you.

Samuel Hahnemann (1755-1843) was responsible for the 19th century
prohibition against against coffee and tea.  And, the so-called reason
was that they excited sexual activity which resulted in the loss of
vital fluids (ie, Hahnemann's _Organon der Heilkunst_).

You have my condolences.  You are nothing but a brain dead moron.

Just thought that you might want to be reminded once again.
David Wright - 22 Jul 2006 23:02 GMT
>     b. Dr.James Compton Burnett who was a brilliant student and his
>professor of anatomy had advised him not to ruin his promising career
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>home in a few days. When his professor advised him he replied "he could
>not buy worldly honours at the cost of his conscience."

Died in 1901.  Not exactly a contemporary apostate, now is he?

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
Peter Moran - 05 Jul 2006 22:00 GMT
> Hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> reputations at stake, not to mention the multi-trillion dollar pharma
> industry itself...  that, surprise, surprise, the truth is crucified.

Does coffee ever get stronger for anyone if they keep diluting and shaking
it?   Why not?  (no mystical answers or resort to otherwise unevidenced
hypotheses,  please - you are claiming this would be acceptable science,  if
it were not for unwarranted medical biases)

And do you see "like cures like" as a clear universal principle in medicine?
What about the homeopathic "provings" - do you see those as a likely valid
or validated method of choosing a treatment method, even under the terms
that homeopathy has set for itself?   What about the "psora",  the elusive
factors that homeopathy claims are the source of all human illness?  How
does the evidence for that stack up against the enormous understanding of
illness that has built up in the two hundred years since this superstition
was advanced  by Hannemann.     There are *numerous* ways in which
homeopathy is completely unevidenced and/or conflicts with  not only
well-trodden and repeatedly validated paths of science but with our daily
experiences.

You have scarcely touched upon all the reasons that homeopathy can be
regarded as an elaborate placebo.   So far as the controlled trials are
concerned and the "80% of our patients get better" claims are concerned,
numerous conventional medical treatments have had to be abandoned because,
like homeopathy, they have been unable to produce consistent results in
controlled trials.      (80 % of most common medical conditions, including
such conditions as asthma, will be better at *some* later endpoint,
especially whenever  the practitioner is able to self-assess,  superimposing
his own biases on material that is already distorted  by spontaneous events
and patient reporting biases).

Lastly, in over two hundred years of usage, homeopathy has been unable to
produce even good anecdotal evidence of benefit for any major disease.   It
only seems to "work" for conditions where placebos also do very well.   The
only relatively objective and stable condition that homeopaths often claim
benefits with is rheumatoid arthritis, and even Peter Fisher, homeopath to
the Queen of England,  had to admit that  his treatments for that worked no
better than placebo after his own controlled trial.

Peter Moran

> not.
>
[quoted text clipped - 137 lines]
> indeed that human beings are not the mechanical pieces of flesh and
> bone that doctors and drug companies believe us to be.

If you look at all the trials on homeopathy, you will find that they are all
performed on conditions that either can get better by themselves or involve
subjective outcomes that can be very prone to reporting biases or observer
biases.   They are always the condtions that homeopaths think respond well
to their treatment, with homeopathic participants strongly motivated toeards
obtaining positive results.   The incosistent results described above cannot
be regarded as strong evidence of usefulness of homeopathy oin any
condition.

s so that the fact that the results are so inconsistent weoghsstent, .    ,
becasue homeopaths are invariably involved.

> Source: WDDTY. July 2006
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> "The truth is out there - and it shall set you free"
ship - 06 Jul 2006 00:30 GMT
> Does coffee ever get stronger for anyone if they keep diluting and shaking
> it?   Why not?  (no mystical answers or resort to otherwise unevidenced
> hypotheses,  please - you are claiming this would be acceptable science,  if
> it were not for unwarranted medical biases)

The idea is that coffee (i.e. caffeine) is working by an entirely
different mechanism.
Both mechanisms have their place and are not mutually exclusive.

By analogy increasing the octane rating of fuel in a car may improve
the top
speed. Unless the engine has been adapted to run on deisel of course -
in
which case raising the octane level of fuel in the tank wont help - and
worse -
at a certain octane level you will start to cause *severe* ill-health
to the deisel engine.

A slightly weak analogy, I concede, but you get the general idea -
which is
that under some circumstances increasing the octane level will kick
into place
one mechanism - which is perfectly valid in its own right. But under
other
circumstances doing the same thing - adding the same additives to the
fuel can have quite a different impact.

Likewise I am told that a very small injection of water vapour can
improve
the efficiency of a petrol engine - by, depending on prevailing
atmospheric conditions up to 2.5 or maybe 5%. But it depends on many
variables such as how much water vapour is already in the air going
into the engine. And although a very small input of water may improve
things a fractionally larger input will be disasterous! But that all
depends
on the temperature then engine is running at, the oxygen/fuel mix,
atmospher
pressure, atmospheric moisture levels, engine speed,
start-stop/acceleration
profile & type of journey... and who knows maybe even some subtle
things
like type of  spark plug, shape of cylinder head.

So it's all quite complicated. But yes, by one mechanism a subtle
increase
in water vapour injected into an engine may improve efficiency, but by
what about the guy who says water cant work, it only only puts OUT
fires...
And every time he tries the experiment it always fails.

Well, it all depends on getting the controls right, yes.

If he lives in a tropical rainforrest the air will already be for too
moist and
extra water will probably never help!

But if an engine is a complex machine, how many more billions of
times more complex is a human body type of machine.

So... "just get all your CONTROLS right" I hear you say.

Now, the trouble with this is that we may not actually KNOW what
all the relevant variables are that we need to be controlling for.

And maybe this is part of the reason for such inconsistent experimental
evidence. Supposing the entire homeopathic mechanism was controlled
by something extremely subtle - like it only worked with un-stressed
people
who dont have certain genes, and who arent near radio masts for
example.

My pet theory is that the act of observing could be affecting the
experiment.
Strange as it may sound, to quantum theorists this bizarre idea is a
given.
I am told that human intent - prayer experiments - also seem to have
an distinct, highly replicable effect.

But from what the WDDTY original post in this thread is saying, the
answer
is simpler. Homeopathy results themselves have been negatively
tampered with... by medics with vested interests.

> And do you see "like cures like" as a clear universal principle in medicine?
> What about the homeopathic "provings" - do you see those as a likely valid
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Lastly, in over two hundred years of usage, homeopathy has been unable to
> produce even good anecdotal evidence of benefit for any major disease.

A grandiose sweeping statement that rather implies you have not
completely
read the original post.

> If you look at all the trials on homeopathy, you will find that they are all
> performed on conditions that either can get better by themselves or involve
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> be regarded as strong evidence of usefulness of homeopathy oin any
> condition.

My understanding is that extremely well conducted double-blind
placebo controlled experiments have been used to show that in
at least some situations that homeopathy IS working.

must dash

Ship
Peter Moran - 06 Jul 2006 07:53 GMT
>> Does coffee ever get stronger for anyone if they keep diluting and
>> shaking
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> different mechanism.
> Both mechanisms have their place and are not mutually exclusive.

You miss the point.  There is no example in nature where such effects of
dilution.succussion  have been demonstrated.   It is not merely that no one
can explain how homeopathic effects could possibly occur, they have never
been shown to occur.  The examples you use are not worth discussing.   No
quantum physicist wants any truck with homeopathy either.

Peter Moran

> By analogy increasing the octane rating of fuel in a car may improve
> the top
[quoted text clipped - 130 lines]
>
> Ship
± - 07 Jul 2006 23:38 GMT
I think that you should have a homepathic martini and rip roaring snockered.

lol

[misc. ravings snipped]
NotImportant - 27 Jul 2006 11:03 GMT
> >> Does coffee ever get stronger for anyone if they keep diluting and
> >> shaking
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> been shown to occur.  The examples you use are not worth discussing.   No
> quantum physicist wants any truck with homeopathy either.

  This is taken from a course I'm taking. It is from Dr. Alexander.
He's a allopathic doctor. I'm not an allopathic doctor so perhaps those
who are in know could confirm this effect of castor oil.

   "Take for instance, a drug called castor oil. Its primary action
causes purging and the secondary action being opposite to the primary
action produces constipation. The allopaths generally take advantage of
its primary action and give this medicine to relieve constipation but
here the effect is only palliative and the secondary effect supervening
increase the constipation.    This is a very common thing known to every
allopathic doctor and the more intelligent among them gives th warning
to the patient that the after-constipation may be worse than original
one. All the same, we are at times obliged to make use of this primary
palliative effect and this palliation, may be all that is required in
certain urgent condition. The secondary action of castor oil is made
use of by allopaths too in certain cases of diarrhoea and dysentery
when they prescribe castor oil emulsion for these conditions. This
emulsion is only a trituration of castor oil and its effect in
diarrhoea and dysentery when administered in small doses is well known
to allopathic doctors, though most of them may not acknowledge the
homoeopathic theory of its working."

   From what I have read the biphasic action of drugs is so common
that it is almost self-evident.  But then again a mind that is
conditioned and prejudicial will demand double-blind, randomised,
controlled study.

   Consider what Herbert spencer said : "There is a principle which is
a bar against all informations, which is prrof against all arguments
and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That
principle is CONTEMPT PRIOR TO INVESTIGATION."

   Consider another allopathic doctor who decided to become a
homoeopathic physician - " Nine-tenth of the diseases to which flesh is
heir, is due to the abuse of allopathic medicine in infancy or
childhood."
                                         Dr. G.R.Gilman, M.D

  Or another allopathic physician Dr. John Mason Good, MD,F.R.S - "The
effects of our medicines on the human systems are in the highest degree
uncertain, except indeed that they have destroyed more lives than war,
pestilence and famine combined."

   This sounded quite a hyperbole but for him to make such a drastic
statement he must either be a lunatic or indeed have seen enough to be
convinced of it.
Happy Dog - 27 Jul 2006 17:31 GMT
"NotImportant" <chiongguo@gmail.com&