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Medical Forum / General / General / June 2006

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Unusual white substance growing inside mouth.

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thisisanonymous1@gmail.com - 03 May 2006 06:08 GMT
Hi All,
I am a 25 year old boy. Due to privacy reasons, I do
not wish to reveal more about my identity.

>From the last 6 or 7 years (I do not remember the
exact duration, but it is definitely not less than 6
years), I've had this condition in my mouth whereby, a
whitish substance has been growing on the insides of
my mouth (inner side walls and below the tongue, but
NOT on the inner top surface).

Everyday when I wake up in the morning, the inner
linings of my mouth as well as the area under my
tongue are covered with this tasteless and odorless
substance (as for the color of this substance, it's
EXACTLY like the flesh of a tender coconut (and I mean
EXACTLY; I am stressing on the color so as to give you
a good idea about my condition)).

I must say that it does not harm me in any way. It is
just there all the time. It feels like some sort of a
fungus which has been residing in my mouth like a
parasite all these years.

This substance has not, however, affected my tastebuds
and other normal functions of the mouth. Neither has
it affected my teeth.

When I wake up every morning, using my fingers, I have
to clean the insides of my mouth and remove all of
this substance, even before I wash my face, or brush
my teeth. After this procedure, my mouth feels quite
normal and then I begin brushing my teeth.

After a few hours, like around 1 - 1:30 PM, the
substance has again grown adequately and before (or
sometimes after) I have my lunch, I again have to
clean up my mouth using my fingers just as I have to
in the mornings. Then I'm good for the rest of the
day.

As for treatments, I had several years back, consulted
my family GP, who had then recommended me Candid mouth
paste. I was advised to apply this paste on the
insides of my mouth about 3 times a day. But it did
not help in the long run.

I even tried to gargle and rinse my mouth with diluted
Dettol antiseptic a few times (without any medical
supervision and on my own) believing it would cure me,
but the Dettol begin to seep into the roots of one of
my teeth which has had a root canal done, putting me
in great pain and forcing me to stop. I then stopped
any treatment of this disease, since I was a little
fed-up of it, and also, I was finding it difficult to
find the time to pursue the treatment for it. Also, I
was a bit reluctant to let my family GP know the real
reason (which I suspect) for the cause of the disease
(which I have disclosed further below...).

I am seeking for a cure for this weird abnormality of
mine, because I am soon getting married, and I fear
transmitting this fungus to my wife, during normal
activities like kissing.

Now for the most uncomfortable part. I am giving you a
very important clue to this disease of mine, which I
hope would help you to diagnose the disease and tell
me the required course of treatment.

I caught this fungus during my college days from one
of my (male) friends. One day, we both were out in
someone's party and were really drunk by the end of
it. All I can remember and tell you is that the next
morning, I woke up with his penis (and part of his
scrotum) in my mouth. I am not gay, and neither is my
friend, but something must have happened that night
(which I cannot recall) that led to the above
mentioned situation. I have not told the source of
this fungus to my family GP (who I have mentioned
above) because of obvious hesitation and reluctance.

Two days after the above mentioned predicament of
mine, when I woke up, I found this strange thing
inside my mouth, (about which I think I was able to
give you a good idea). I Immediately suspected that
this definitely must have been caused by
you-know-what.

I am requesting you to please, PLEASE go through this
description of my problem and suggest me any
medication, which would relieve me of this oral
abnormality, FOREVER.

Regards,
Anonymous.
Protoman - 03 May 2006 06:15 GMT
You have oral thrush, a fungal infection of the mouth caused by the
same fungus which causes athlete's foot. Take 1 330mg ultramicrosize
griseofulvin a day by mouth, after meals, for two months. See if that
works.
Jeffrey Krantz - 08 May 2006 00:09 GMT
ARE U NUTS: do not prescribe over the NET. Even if you are clinically right
you have just subjected yourself to a malpractice action, or the idiots in
YOUR STATE Board will nail you.

> You have oral thrush, a fungal infection of the mouth caused by the
> same fungus which causes athlete's foot. Take 1 330mg ultramicrosize
> griseofulvin a day by mouth, after meals, for two months. See if that
> works.
Protoman - 08 May 2006 05:45 GMT
> ARE U NUTS: do not prescribe over the NET. Even if you are clinically right
> you have just subjected yourself to a malpractice action, or the idiots in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > griseofulvin a day by mouth, after meals, for two months. See if that
> > works.

W/o a form, it's just advice. How can he get the meds w/o a physical
script? Or a DEA #.
Stormin Mormon - 08 May 2006 21:14 GMT
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to spray athletes foot spray into his
mouth, and under his tongue?

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

You have oral thrush, a fungal infection of the mouth caused by the
same fungus which causes athlete's foot. Take 1 330mg ultramicrosize
griseofulvin a day by mouth, after meals, for two months. See if that
works.
Protoman - 09 May 2006 01:32 GMT
> Wouldn't it be a lot easier to spray athletes foot spray into his
> mouth, and under his tongue?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> griseofulvin a day by mouth, after meals, for two months. See if that
> works.

Idiot. Athlete's foot spray has a bunch of other chemicals that are
toxic if injested. But if you want to be sued for wrongful death and/or
malpractice, go ahead. Besides, griseofulvin is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more
powerful than petty Tinactin spray.
Phil Anthropist - 03 May 2006 13:55 GMT
> Hi All,
> I am a 25 year old boy. Due to privacy reasons, I do
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
> Regards,
> Anonymous.

You have a mild case of Usenet trollitis.
marcia - 03 May 2006 14:39 GMT
> > Hi All,
> > I am a 25 year old boy. Due to privacy reasons, I do
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > my mouth (inner side walls and below the tongue, but
> > NOT on the inner top surface).

I can understand your discomfort about revealing this to your family
GP, and that seems to have kept you from getting proper treatment for
years. Do you live in a country where you have free access to other
doctors?

If so, it might be in your best interest to get your *own* doctor, one
who doesn't see the rest of your family, that you can establish a trust
relationship with so you can get this treated. Optionally, you could
try going to an urgent care center (if one is available in your area)
to have it looked at.

I think the bottom line is, though, that you *should* be seen by a
doctor. You're right to be concerned about passing this along to your
future wife. So if you can't do it for yourself, do it for her.
thisisanonymous1@gmail.com - 04 May 2006 05:24 GMT
> > > Hi All,
> > > I am a 25 year old boy. Due to privacy reasons, I do
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> doctor. You're right to be concerned about passing this along to your
> future wife. So if you can't do it for yourself, do it for her.

Hi Marcia,
Thanks for your concern and your advise. I'll definitely try to see a
different doctor about my ailment.

Thanks again.
Regards,
Anonymous.
Sdores - 03 May 2006 15:24 GMT
It's sounds like thrush, Nystatin works great for this, some call it swish
and swallow.  Contact you dr about this.  UM MOM Susan
> Hi All,
> I am a 25 year old boy. Due to privacy reasons, I do
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
> Regards,
> Anonymous.
Protoman - 03 May 2006 22:29 GMT
> It's sounds like thrush, Nystatin works great for this, some call it swish
> and swallow.  Contact you dr about this.  UM MOM Susan
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
> > Regards,
> > Anonymous.

What's wrong w/ griseofulvin? That stuff works wonders on fungal
infections.
Sdores - 03 May 2006 23:22 GMT
I never heard of it.  UM MOM Susan

>> It's sounds like thrush, Nystatin works great for this, some call it
>> swish
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
> What's wrong w/ griseofulvin? That stuff works wonders on fungal
> infections.
Protoman - 04 May 2006 01:38 GMT
> I never heard of it.  UM MOM Susan
> >
[quoted text clipped - 100 lines]
> > What's wrong w/ griseofulvin? That stuff works wonders on fungal
> > infections.

Then go google for griseofulvin. It's a derivative of penicillin, which
makes you wonder why it doesn't have "-cillin" in it's name. Trade name
is Gris-PEG.
Bob - 04 May 2006 03:53 GMT
>Then go google for griseofulvin. It's a derivative of penicillin, which
>makes you wonder why it doesn't have "-cillin" in it's name. Trade name
>is Gris-PEG.

Griseofulvin is in no way related to penicillin, and of course has a
completely different purpose.

bob
Protoman - 04 May 2006 07:03 GMT
> >Then go google for griseofulvin. It's a derivative of penicillin, which
> >makes you wonder why it doesn't have "-cillin" in it's name. Trade name
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> bob

My med book says it was derived from Penicillium griseofulvum. Ha!
tdonline - 04 May 2006 16:35 GMT
I don't have as interesting story, but the ailment is real enough.
I've got the same substance in my mouth too.  My ent said my tongue is
one of the cleanest she's ever seen so it's not a fungal or thrush
problem.  Still I do get the weird white substance, usually upon waking
in the morning.
thisisanonymous1@gmail.com - 06 May 2006 08:31 GMT
> I don't have as interesting story, but the ailment is real enough.
> I've got the same substance in my mouth too.  My ent said my tongue is
> one of the cleanest she's ever seen so it's not a fungal or thrush
> problem.  Still I do get the weird white substance, usually upon waking
> in the morning.

Hi tdonline,
Could you tell me something more about you and your condition, like
what is your age and for how long have you had it ?

Also, could you tell me what treatment are you taking for it and is it
helping or not and if you are seeing any doctor about it, then whether
he/she has diagnosed this disorder ? These inputs will also help me.

Best regards,
Anonymous.
tdonline - 06 May 2006 19:51 GMT
I'm in my early thirties and I only started noticing it a couple of
months back.  I could have had it earlier and not noticed because I
only get a little bit of it and only on some days.  So it's not that
big of a deal.  I have other heath issues and I just thought that maybe
this white substance was yet another symptom.  I have had a sore throat
for about 9 months now and  the ENT said it was due to acid reflux and
I thought maybe the reflux was due to a mild fungal infection or
thrush.  But I got my results back from a test and it seems I do not
have pathological reflux and my esophageal muscle is normal but am
getting some acid into my throat due to repetitive burping.

Newbie's suggestion that I may be a mouth breather got me onto an idea
which I'm testing out now.  My gastroentologist thinks my burping
problem is due to aerophagia which is swallowing too much air.  So the
last couple of nights I have been wearing a breathe-right strip to help
me breathe better along with cloth tape to keep my mouth closed.  No
sticky white substance so far.  Unfortunately, I'm still burping
though.

Last spring I was having problems with a stuffed nose and I may have
started mouth breathing to compensate.  All the following issues may
have followed because of this bad habit.  Anyhow, I hope this theory is
true so I can fix it and get better!
thisisanonymous1@gmail.com - 07 May 2006 11:29 GMT
> I'm in my early thirties and I only started noticing it a couple of
> months back.  I could have had it earlier and not noticed because I
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> have followed because of this bad habit.  Anyhow, I hope this theory is
> true so I can fix it and get better!

Hi tdonline,
Thanks for taking the time out to reply.

Based on the symptoms which you have described, I think that your
condition may be different than mine, although both are having similar
symptoms. Anyways, I wish you the very best for a quick and full
recovery.

I would like to tell all of you that I have started the treatment of
this condition and as a first step towards the same, seen a doctor last
Saturday. It was a bit difficult for me to discuss the cause of the
disease with him verbally, so I just wrote down everything and asked
him to go through it.

He says that he shall first have to collect fresh samples of the
culture from my mouth which, after some lab tests may tell us what the
substance actually is and may then show the correct course of
treatment. I have not asked him this question specifically, but going
by the look on his face, I think the doc may have come across a case
like mine for the first time in his career (and he is quite an
experienced guy).

As and when I have any major leads on the diagnosis, I shall keep
posting the same here. Just wish me luck...

Best regards to all of you,
Anonymous.
thisisanonymous1@gmail.com - 14 May 2006 10:16 GMT
Hi All,
Just writing to let all you guys know about the progress of my
treatment.

My doctor had told me to undergo some blood as well as urine tests and
the results for all of them have been out and everything is normal.

These are the tests in particular:
1. Complete blood count with ESR.
2. Urine routine (CUE).
3. Blood sugar (fasting).
4. Blood sugar (post prandial).
5. Screening Pack (HBsAG - Australia Antigen ELI).
6. Screening Pack (HIV 1+2 screening (ELISA)).
7. Screening Pack (VDRL).

The results of a last test are yet to arrive. It is a test for Fungus
Smear, Culture for Fungus and GRAM stain. For these, the doc collected
a sample of the culture from my mouth using a sterile swab. Now,
hopefully, within a couple of days, the results of this test will be
out and we shall know what the white substance is and what is required
to cure it.

I shall post the pending test results as soon as they are out.

Regards,
Anonymous.
Robert CLS, MT(ASCP) - 14 May 2006 21:42 GMT
These are the tests in particular:
<1. Complete blood count with ESR.
<2. Urine routine (CUE).
<3. Blood sugar (fasting).
<4. Blood sugar (post prandial).
<5. Screening Pack (HBsAG - Australia Antigen ELI).
<6. Screening Pack (HIV 1+2 screening (ELISA)).
<7. Screening Pack (VDRL).

It brings back memories of years gone by when HBAG was referred to as
Australian antigen.

If it turns out to be yeast then a TCELL CD4/CD8 count might be
interesting although it wouldn't change the treatment. I take it you
are not on any meds and not an IV drug user. Some people on statins
complain of increased yeast infections. You are probably too old for
congenital disorders of immune function and so the acquired disorders
would predominate.

The fungal KOH is read immediately as is the gram stain. The fungal
culture can take weeks to grow out but preliminary of the stains should
have been sent out. The urine culture did not grow yeast. There is a
cultist group out there that believes every ill is caused by systemic
yeast infections without any evidence of any infection.

I take it no night sweats or fever and a normal ESR is good as for your
age on of the most common malignancies is Hodgkins Lymphoma in which
secondary infections are common.
Stormin Mormon - 08 May 2006 21:24 GMT
1) Do you have fewer Krispy Kreme donuts in the morning compared to
when you went to bed?

2) Is your tooth paste tube much more empty in the morning?

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

I don't have as interesting story, but the ailment is real enough.
I've got the same substance in my mouth too.  My ent said my tongue is
one of the cleanest she's ever seen so it's not a fungal or thrush
problem.  Still I do get the weird white substance, usually upon
waking
in the morning.
Ludwig - 03 Jun 2006 11:38 GMT
> I don't have as interesting story, but the ailment is real enough.
> I've got the same substance in my mouth too.  

Me too. I was told by an oral surgeon here in the UK that there was
nothing wrong with me and that the loose skin on the inside of my cheeks
was due to me biting them. I said I didn't bite them; he said I did, but
didn't realise it. I could hardly argue.

After that I just gave up on trying to treat it. For better or worse, I
haven't had a romantic partner since contracting the infection, but
obviously if that should change, I'm dreading that moment of telling
someone I can't ever kiss them.

I'm interested in these medications that have been mentioned in this
thread, but I'm loathe to get my hopes up after all this time.

> My ent said my tongue is
> one of the cleanest she's ever seen so it's not a fungal or thrush
> problem.  

AIUI, cleanliness is no guard against fungal infections. What they need
more than anything is moisture and there'll always be plenty of that in
your mouth, no matter how clean you keep it.

In my case, I'm pretty sure it spread from my feet. Depressingly, I also
get athlete's foot on my hands and fingernails, so I guess it made it to
my mouth when I was eating or something.

> Still I do get the weird white substance, usually upon waking
> in the morning.

Yes - a sort of gummy substance in my mouth and on my lips. Any period
where I keep my mouth closed for a long time.
Ann - 03 Jun 2006 18:48 GMT
>AIUI, cleanliness is no guard against fungal infections. What they need
>more than anything is moisture and there'll always be plenty of that in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>get athlete's foot on my hands and fingernails, so I guess it made it to
>my mouth when I was eating or something.

While it's normal to take a fungal infection from your hands to your
mouth, we all do it, it is not normal for the infection to thrive
there.  In a healthy body, the natural immune system will kill it
before it starts.  If you are getting mouth infections, that is a sign
that something else is wrong and you should get yourself checked out.
It likely has nothing to do with your mouth, but your mouth is the
part that is reacting.  

Ann

>> Still I do get the weird white substance, usually upon waking
>> in the morning.
>
>Yes - a sort of gummy substance in my mouth and on my lips. Any period
>where I keep my mouth closed for a long time.
Ludwig - 03 Jun 2006 20:10 GMT
>> In my case, I'm pretty sure it spread from my feet. Depressingly, I also
>> get athlete's foot on my hands and fingernails, so I guess it made it to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> It likely has nothing to do with your mouth, but your mouth is the
> part that is reacting.  

Just as a matter of interest, why is a fungal infection less likely to
thrive in your mouth than between your toes? IINAImmunologist but surely
if the immune system was that good, it wouldn't let you get athlete's
foot in the first place?
Robert CLS, MT(ASCP) - 03 Jun 2006 21:11 GMT
> >> In my case, I'm pretty sure it spread from my feet. Depressingly, I also
> >> get athlete's foot on my hands and fingernails, so I guess it made it to
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> if the immune system was that good, it wouldn't let you get athlete's
> foot in the first place?

There are a variety fungi that can cause athletes foot including the
dermatophytes of Microsporum, Trichophytan and Epidermophytan.
Candidiasis is somewhat different. There has been an association of
candidiasis with hypoparathyroidism in which that was first reported in
1929. The assoication with adrenal insufficiency in 1946. Chronic
mucocutaneous candiidasis is common in autoimmune polyendocrine
syndrome type I that first presents in childhood.

Candida is a saprophytic yeast that is a part of normal skin flora that
is kept in check. The dermatopytes are pathogenic and not normal flora
of the skin which are contagious.

It's a fine distinction a know.
Ludwig - 04 Jun 2006 21:11 GMT
>> Just as a matter of interest, why is a fungal infection less likely to
>> thrive in your mouth than between your toes? IINAImmunologist but surely
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> It's a fine distinction a know.

So you are basically saying that what Ann wrote is not fully correct -
i.e. she was talking about candida, whereas it *is* possible to get
mouth infections of other athlete's foot-causing fungi?

I don't believe I've got autoimmune problems, or not of the type you
refer to. Though over the past 5 years I've certainly found it harder
than previously to shake off colds, I first got this gunk in my mouth
over 10 years ago.

Thanks for the info anyway.
Robert CLS, MT(ASCP) - 04 Jun 2006 22:14 GMT
> >> Just as a matter of interest, why is a fungal infection less likely to
> >> thrive in your mouth than between your toes? IINAImmunologist but surely
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> i.e. she was talking about candida, whereas it *is* possible to get
> mouth infections of other athlete's foot-causing fungi?

Thrush is a mouth infection along with deeper infections when the
opportunity presents itself.
It is one of the disease defining symptoms of AIDS with esophageal
infection. It can cause skin infections where it normally resides.

The dermatophytes are limited to the skin, meaning skin loving.
They cause Tinea etc. They do not infect the mouth. There are other
possible systemic infections of fungi that may do so but they are not
*dermatophytes*. These other fungi  can be associated with diabetes and
in those with corticosteroid use and usually oral pharyngeal nose area
leading to a brain infection. These are rare events thankfully.

> I don't believe I've got autoimmune problems, or not of the type you
> refer to. Though over the past 5 years I've certainly found it harder
> than previously to shake off colds, I first got this gunk in my mouth
> over 10 years ago.
>
> Thanks for the info anyway.

The problem with gunk in the mouth is two-fold. One needs to find out
what it is and a KOH slide put under the microscope will determine if
that gunk is Candida or not. The other thing that can be done is a
fungal culture in which the fungus can be grown out.
Unfortunately even small number of yeast can be grown out and so the
significance becomes somewhat interpretive with positive culture
results as the number of fungus are not reported out only the presence
and identification of the fungus. Yeast is common in small numbers in
the mouth.
In general fungi are kept under control by cellular immunity and many
congenital and acquried conditions can make one susceptible to yeast
and fungi. There is usually a change in the microenvironment that
brings on a floral imbalance.  Some people say the statins they were
taking made them more susceptible to yeast for example although one has
to look closer at everything.
I wasn't speaking to anyone in particular with my statements but only
pointing out differences in interpretation between yeast infections
fungi imperfecti and the true fungi with macroconidia formation such as
the dermatophytes of Microsporum canis in athletes foot which is
limited. Candida in the blood can be deadly as well as other fungi.
Fortunately that is rare as IV lines are changed regularly when they
are found to be contaminated with yeast.
bae@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu - 05 May 2006 04:57 GMT
>> >Then go google for griseofulvin. It's a derivative of penicillin, which
>> >makes you wonder why it doesn't have "-cillin" in it's name. Trade name
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>My med book says it was derived from Penicillium griseofulvum. Ha!

Just because penicillin and griseofulvin come from two species of
Penicillium doesn't mean that they are chemically similar, have similar
mode of action, or are effective against the same types of bacteria.
Bob - 05 May 2006 06:20 GMT
>> >Then go google for griseofulvin. It's a derivative of penicillin, which
>> >makes you wonder why it doesn't have "-cillin" in it's name. Trade name
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>My med book says it was derived from Penicillium griseofulvum. Ha!

You seem to be confusing penicillin  and Penicillium. The former is a
drug and the latter is a "bug" (a fungus in this case).

Penicillium is a type of fungus (mold), and strains of it make various
drugs, including penicillin and griseofulvin. However, those two drugs
have no relationship to each other. Your original point was wondering
why the drug griseofulvin was not named to look like a member of the
penicillin family. The answer is that it is not -- it is chemically
completely distinct. The name penicillin (and similar names) is used
for a class of chemicals similar to the basic penicillin.

Penicillin and griseofulvin also have distinct uses. One is used
against bacteria, and one against fungi.

You are not the first to be confused by the terms penicillin and
Penicillium. Glad you followed up.

bob
Captain Infinity - 07 May 2006 15:17 GMT
>Hi All,
>I am a 25 year old boy. Due to privacy reasons, I do
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
>Regards,
>Anonymous.

Sounds like Poof In Mouth disease.

**
Captain Infinity
 
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