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Medical Forum / General / General / May 2006

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unusual form of depression,need advice.

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hanif_5500@yahoo.com - 30 Apr 2006 17:02 GMT
Hello everyone,I have a quite unusla case of what I think is a form of
depression.I hope somone can be kind enough to read my case: Even from
a young age I had obessevive compulsive/depressive tendencies. However
these were quite mild, ad I would probably have passed into adulhood as
a normal member of society, were it not for the unfortunate facts that
I was born into an extremely religious family. I say religion, but it
was more like a cult, and I suspect that at the back of my mind I
always knew that the religion was a big lie, but I had to force myself
to follow it's practices. Living a lie like this led to my obessive
complsive behaviour to get much,much worse. Things came to a head in an
extrmeley unusual manner: During my teen years my sexual development
was normal, watching porn (albeit with a lot of guilt due to the
religion), wet dreams etc etc. However at the age of 17,when I began to
masturbate, a very shocking thing happended, I developed severe urinary
frequency, and would literally feel like going to the toilet every five
minutes to urinate, and when I did urinate I only passed tiny amounts
of urine.
For a long time I did not tell anyone what was happening, but the
stress was so severe that my hygeine became very poor, from getting
excellent grades at school, I begane to fail the exams, I became
severely depressed. I thought maybe God was punishing me for not
praying enough, however even after I prayed to Him to stop the urinary
problams, He did not reply, at this point I think I stopped believing
in God.
Even though the urinary freqnuecy began when I started to
masturbate,for a long time I did not really make the connection between
the two facts. However when I did finally make the connection I knew
that I had to completely stop masturbating. At this point it was about
7 months into this hellish expereince, and I was on the summer break
from school. An Ultrasound scan showed nothing to be physically wrong
with my bladder.
It took all my will power (and I consider myself above average in
will-power) for me to stop masturbating. You don't understand what a
powerful force the sex drive is until you have to put up a fight
against it. However, by the time I had to go back to school I had
ceased masturbating, and no longer even had the urge to do so.
At this point I would like to guess that there was nothing physically
wrong with my bladder that led to the urinary frequncy when I began to
masturbate, it was my 'primal mind', telling me that it couldn't carry
on believing the religon my parents had forced upon me. Or some other
psychological reason.
At the age of 17 when I went back for my final year of school,needless
to say I was severely emotionally damaged. I should not have been
anywhere near a school,but my 'loving' parents insisted on me returning
to school. At that time I did not know what I was suffering,but looking
back now, I can see that I had all of the symptoms of severe
depression: complete inablity to concentrate,severe
constipation,negative thoughts etc etc.
Needless to say that I was so mentally damaged that I dropped out of
college.
Fast forward to today, I'm thirty years old, and my life is a mess.I am
unable to hold down a job, and year by year the illness has gotten
worse and worse, as is the case with depression. Although I must stop
and say that I really don't know what I suffer from. I mean i seem to
have almost all of the symtpoms associated with depression, but with
the big exception that in the 12 years since dropping out of school,
and until today I have almost never suffered any of the sadness
normally assocated with depression. Although it may be that the sadness
has been repressed. Here is a list of my symtpoms: 1)complete absense
of any emotions,such as sadness,anger etc etc. I feel like Spock from
Star trek
2)zero sex drive, although I am able to ejaculate but I feel absolutely
no pleasure from doing so
3) Complete absence of any feeling of pleasure from activities like
work or other activties. In fact, in 12 years I don't think I've felt
more than a few seconds of low level pleasure
4)Severe irrational anxiety over otherwise trivial events
5)Severe obessive compulsive behaviour
6)Focussing on the negative of any given situation,rather than having
an optimistic outlook.
I realise that from the above symtpoms that the first diagnosis would
be depression, however I don't think I suffer from depression. I have
tried 3 different ssri anti-depressants, Paxil, Effexor and Anafranil,
and they only lifted my mood a little, and had absolutely no effect on
me not being able to feel pleasure or emotions (and since I already
don't have any emotions, wouldn't ssri's which are known to numb a
person make my situation even worse?) . Although, due to my messed up
life I only gave each of these pills 4 weeks to take effect.
Instead I think my current illness is related to me stopping
masturbating. The sex drive is such a fundamental part of the human
psyche, that I feel that my emotions shut down, and I became anhedonic
directly due to this.
Now the question is, if it is the sex drive which is the root cause of
my current malaise, how can I restart it? I mean, I know that the human
brain is like a nueral network, and has a level of plasticity. So I
feel that the pathways for the sexual urge have been downgraded.
Someone, recommended that I use Amphetamines to see if I can repair the
damge done to my sexual instincts.
Initally I agreed with the person, and 4 weeks ago when I used Ritalin
combined with GHB, I felt pleasure for the first time in years.
However, I had to stop this expereiment since I ran out of Ritalin.
The reason for me thinking that amphetamines will not help me is
because after the ritalin ran out, I have not felt any pleasure since.
Surely if I use more powerful amphetamines, they might give me a lot of
pleasure for the few minutes that I use them,but as soon as I stop,the
pleasure will also stop. And what makes it worse, is that I read that
amphetamines,in high doses, can cause as much brain damage as drugs
like speed.
However I feel that my problem is related to the molecule Dopamine,more
so than the Seratonin molecule. Whenever I have taken a drug which
stimulates the dopamine sytem, I feel much better than when I take
something related to the seratonin system. On top of this I have to
bring up the fact that for many hours at a time I feel a pressure on
the right side of my head. Initially I thought it was a physical
symptom, however this pressure actually feels good,it feels like
pleasure which is being unconsciously repressed. And on top of this, I
always feel the pressure after I do something which should provide
pleasure. For example, if I was to masturbate, I would be able to
ejaculate, but would feel absolutely no pleasure at all from doing so.
However for the next 6-8 hours after ejaculating I would feel this
pressure,which seems to orginate from the right side of my head, about
where my right ear is. I think what's happening is that 12 years ago,
when I stopped masturbating, I had to somehow figure a way to fight the
very strong sexual urges, my unconscious mind must have figured out a
way to block the pleasurable sexual urges. The problem is, now that I
have resumed masturbating, my conscious mind does not know how to undo
the blockage done my my lower,primal mind. Hence this feeling that
pleasurable sensations are being blocked.
This brings up another fact for me. It was about 4 years ago that I
sort of acknowledged to myself that I had a serious mental problem, and
in my utter stupidity I thought I could use drugs,like GHB, or magic
muchrooms to analayse my brain. However,as you might be able to
predict, whilst I was on a particular drug, I often felt great, but as
soon as the effects of the drug ran out, I was back to being depressed.
However it is interssting to note, the out of all the drugs I tried,
GHB,ecstasy,cannabis,2cb etc etc, I felt almost all of the effects
commonly felt by normal people who consume these drugs WITH the
exception, that I never felt any pleasure. So for example, on GHB, a
drug which provides users with euphoria,increased sociability, and
increased tactile sensations, I felt absoltely no pleasure in my body,
I actually felt numb, on some occasions when i was taking GHB, my hands
and arms felt almost completely numb for 2 days.
To comlicate matters even more, in the past week, I read a book, called
'Depression is a choice', by an American author called AB Curtiss, and
it was an amazing book to read. The author suggested that depressives
like to blame other people for their bad choices, and that in order to
lessen their depression they need to try to reintiegrate themselves in
to the community, and by doing so, it might stimulate their brain's
neural networks to change from being in a depressive state into a more
normal one. From this book, I realised that I blame my parents for a
lot of my problems, but I can't escape the realisation that I too have
to take some responsiblity for how my life has turned out. Life is a
serious of decisions, and ultimately I could have chosen some different
ones, for example I could have asked to speak to my parents about the
fact that the religion was causing me obsessive compulsive thoughts.
At this point I am very confused. I have been a total fool, out of the
6 billion human beings alive, I feel like i should be in the top 1%
most stupid losers. I have thought of commiting suicide many,many times
in the past 12 years, and as my illness has gone untreated for so
long,it has gotten worse and worse.
At this point I feel like I have 2 main course of action:
1)Try some kind of dopaminergic releasing drugs to see if I can kick
start my pleasure system, or even try something more radical like ECT.
2) Go with what the 'Depression is a choice' author said, and try to
improve my current living condition, such as moving out of my parents
house, and see if gradually this has any effect on my brain. But I'm
worried about how I will do this. Currently I feel like I have an
unloaded gun, i have no emotions,can't feel pleasure etc etc, but this
book says I should try to get a job,learn to drive a car, and other
things. It feels like a catch-22 type situation, how can I do the
things to get out of my depressive state, when I don't feel like I have
the tools in the first place to do the job?
The past 12 years of my life have been hell on earth. I had no idea
life would be so cruel. I have thought of suicide many times. And to be
slighlty glib and off-topic, in my childhood, I was glued to the
television,watching cartoons all day long, I often wish I was living in
that cartoon universe than the present reality.
I welcome all suggestions. And even though  though I know this is a
very unusual case, I hope no one feels the need the flame my post.
Bye my friends.
% - 30 Apr 2006 17:14 GMT
> Hello everyone,I have a quite unusla case of what I think is a form of
> depression.I hope somone can be kind enough to read my case: Even from
[quoted text clipped - 166 lines]
> very unusual case, I hope no one feels the need the flame my post.
> Bye my friends.

sounds like typical depression to me ,
get a shrink and get on some meds
Larry Hoover - 30 Apr 2006 18:42 GMT
> Hello everyone,I have a quite unusla case of what I think is a form of
> depression.

It's not unusual. It's distinctive. Of course, no one could have had precisely the
experiences you have had. Nor would others be expected to have reacted the way you
specifically did. You are unique. But not unusual.

First off, your family of origin. You received a genetic trend from your parents. Do
you not see them as OCD? Do you not see the religiosity as an expression of extreme
reaction to a genetic tendency? Because your religious experiences were so profound,
I think that you would be most likely to respond to cognitive behavioural therapy.
You have a tendency to see things as black and white, as all or nothing. There's
nothing much in between the extremes, the way you describe things. And that is a
cognitive choice, that you can progressively unlearn. It takes time and effort to
change your habits, and that includes thinking habits. Note also, that CBT is about
behaviour. You have to learn to act differently, as well. It's more than just
thinking differently. If you don't learn to act differently, the thinking changes
won't matter nearly as much.

As to drugs.....you describe a positive response to Ritalin, yet you stopped it
after one month. Why didn't you just continue with the Ritalin?

Alternatives to Ritalin might include DLPA (d-,l-phenylalanine), or tyrosine. Both
augment dopamine formation, but DLPA has extra effects. In your case, DLPA seems
more intuitive a choice, but you must do the experiment to know the answers.

You have only tried a few antidepressant medications. It is possible that none will
afford you the relief you seek, but you will not know what works without actually
trying things. Based only on my intuition, I suspect you might have a good response
to St. John's wort. The trick is to obtain a good quality product. Here is one such
option: http://hypericum.com/ They sell HBC hypericum. Also, Kira or Perika are good
options.

The drugs, at best, will provide you with some resiliency and perhaps an encouraging
response to experiences in your life (i.e. potentially relieve anhedonia). But, I
see your main problems to be in how you have created a cognitive schema of your
life. Your biggest problem, IMHO, is how you think about yourself and your life. How
you think inevitably influences how you feel. I strongly encourage you to find a
cognitive behavioural therapist. And if possible, that therapist should specialize
in religious abuse cases. Your religious experience was abusive to your spirit, and
you would benefit from uncovering the unconscious elements of thinking that are
keeping you in this mental state.

Good luck with this all. I foresee a lot of work for you, in finding relief from
your thoughts.

Lar
marcia - 30 Apr 2006 19:30 GMT
> Hello everyone,I have a quite unusla case of what I think is a form of
> depression.

Hanif, your best bet would be to see a psychiatrist to discuss your
medication needs. SSRIs aren't the only antidepressants available, and
they often take more than 4 weeks to reach full effect.

There is no good evidence to suggest herbal remedies are effective for
severe depression, and none to suggest they work for OCD.
Self-medicating can be dangerous; please consult a doctor.

You would probably also benefit from therapy.
Mitchell Brown - 01 May 2006 03:12 GMT
> Hello everyone,I have a quite unusual case of what I think is a form of
> depression.I hope someone can be kind enough to read my case: Even from
> a young age I had obsessive compulsive/depressive tendencies. However

       -snip-

> I welcome all suggestions. And even though  though I know this is a
> very unusual case, I hope no one feels the need the flame my post.
> Bye my friends.

       Sounds like the first thing to do is accept the fact you have nothing to be
guilty of, which it seems guilt start the trend.
       Many will tell you drugs are the first thing to do, but they will only
delay the fact that the guilt must be dealt with first, don't get me wrong
they will help somewhat but the problem is still there.

       The parents you have started the process, but they didn't know any better
they were probably brought up the same way and thus we have a trend.
       The mind is a very powerful thing, it can overcome anything given the time
and chance to and it can cause bad thinks to our health if unchecked.
       Religion has nothing to do with the worship of a Creator, this is a
mis-conception of many so-called christian faiths, read the 1st chapter of
James, verse 27 I think, THAT will tell you what pure religion is, plain
and simple.
       It is not wrong to worship the Creator actually that is a good thing it
shows you are more than likely a very nice, moral, decent person that is
trying to cope with the insanity of this world and it is getting to them so
to speak.
       Remember this the Creator made you just like you are, faults and all, he
wants you to come to him faults and all and not to worry. I have read many
things and about the best thing I can say is a little poem I read once long
time ago and I'm sure you may have also read it?  The name of it is
"Footprints" or "Footprints in the Sand".  READ IT and LISTEN.

       Forget what everybody say about the Creator including myself, if you are
sincere in your heart, then take your bible and just go into a very
secluded location and sit down and just talk to him, he listens, and let
the Creator teach you, after all who is better to take care of your
problems?

       Peace be with you in all things.
% - 01 May 2006 03:23 GMT
hi
Mitchell Brown - 01 May 2006 04:00 GMT
> hi

       hello? and whom might u be? Could you possible be a friend of mine? <g>
% - 01 May 2006 04:14 GMT
> > hi
>
>         hello? and whom might u be? Could you possible be a friend of mine? <g>

no one you've ever known ,
just saw your post and replied
Mitchell Brown - 01 May 2006 04:39 GMT
>> > hi
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> no one you've ever known ,
> just saw your post and replied

       ok, cool, but I just might surprise you at just what I do/who know?
% - 01 May 2006 04:53 GMT
> >> > hi
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>         ok, cool, but I just might surprise you at just what I do/who know?

i have no expectations of you ,
so whether you do or don't do anything ,
it won't surprise me
Mitchell Brown - 01 May 2006 04:56 GMT
>> >> > hi
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> so whether you do or don't do anything ,
> it won't surprise me

well said, just what set of mountains do you come from if I may ask?
% - 01 May 2006 05:16 GMT
> >> >> > hi
> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> well said, just what set of mountains do you come from if I may ask?

well , i'm a Canadian , on the west coast of Canada ,
i'm in the Rocky Mountains , just on the border of Alaska ,
a quaint little place , 10 acres on my own road ,
its my piece of , i'm the mayor
Mitchell Brown - 01 May 2006 04:40 GMT
>> > hi
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> no one you've ever known ,
> just saw your post and replied

but then again I'm just a dumb ole country boy, what do I know? <g>
% - 01 May 2006 04:57 GMT
> >> > hi
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> but then again I'm just a dumb ole country boy, what do I know? <g>

probably as much as me , i'm a mountain man
Mitchell Brown - 01 May 2006 04:55 GMT
>> >> > hi
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> probably as much as me , i'm a mountain man

       We just might have some of the same relatives.
<g>
% - 01 May 2006 05:09 GMT
> >> >> > hi
> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>         We just might have some of the same relatives.
> <g>

good , but , what does that matter to us
Mitchell Brown - 01 May 2006 07:13 GMT
> good , but , what does that matter to us

       not 1 damn thing
DopeyOpie8 - 01 May 2006 11:23 GMT
>> good , but , what does that matter to us
>
>        not 1 damn thing

Not fer nuttin' but is this the road version of "Brokeback Moauntain"??
PLEASE!!! I'm just joking!! Don't kill me..
Mike
Mitchell Brown - 01 May 2006 04:01 GMT
> hi

       the email address above is real.
% - 01 May 2006 04:16 GMT
> > hi
>
>         the email address above is real.

i'll try and keep that info in my up front
SHOPPERICK - 01 May 2006 03:36 GMT
> > Hello everyone,I have a quite unusual case of what I think is a form of
> > depression.I hope someone can be kind enough to read my case: Even from
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
>         Peace be with you in all things.

Veejer is Creator
Steve - 01 May 2006 04:06 GMT
I think cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) would be more effective for you.

> Hello everyone,I have a quite unusla case of what I think is a form of
> depression.I hope somone can be kind enough to read my case: Even from
[quoted text clipped - 166 lines]
> very unusual case, I hope no one feels the need the flame my post.
> Bye my friends.
me@helpmefigurethisout.com - 01 May 2006 04:50 GMT
The urinary problems and pressure in your head are very strange. Are
you still having the urinary problems? What about the pressure in your
head? Does it feel like it's above your right molars? Because that is
where your right maxillary sinus is located. Sinus infections can cause
chronic fatigue and depression if left untreated for a long time.
% - 01 May 2006 04:58 GMT
> The urinary problems and pressure in your head are very strange. Are
> you still having the urinary problems? What about the pressure in your
> head? Does it feel like it's above your right molars? Because that is
> where your right maxillary sinus is located. Sinus infections can cause
> chronic fatigue and depression if left untreated for a long time.

my back teeth are floating ,
and my front ones are singing ,
anchors away
freek - 01 May 2006 12:09 GMT
HI, if you are the same person that mailed me quite some time ago already
and he had exactly the same problems as you describe then you must be him,
but i gave you a quite clear explanation about probable causes for your
problems and what you could try to make atleast a few problems go away, but
appearently my load of writing did not get you much further and in fact your
situation is to complicated to be handled here at ADH as as far as i know we
have no shrinks here.
So that is your way to go a good psychiatrist and find the source of your
problems work on that and things who used to work fine in the past can start
work fine again with the correct method of help you need to get.
If ritalin gave you a good feeling then you should not have stopped that,
but take my advice and go with this whole story of your life to a good
psychiatrist and make sure that things become normal again and it can be
done.
Good luck.
Regards, FB,NL.
> Hello everyone,I have a quite unusla case of what I think is a form of
> depression.I hope somone can be kind enough to read my case: Even from
[quoted text clipped - 166 lines]
> very unusual case, I hope no one feels the need the flame my post.
> Bye my friends.
MobiusDick - 01 May 2006 15:41 GMT
It sounds like you have several things going on and you need to see a
urologist and psychiatrist. If you have no sadness, you have no
depression. Bt then you talk of suicide, which suggests that you do
have sadness.

First of of all, the urinary frequency related to masturbation is no
psychosomatic. It sounds like a prostate related issue or something
related to sexual dysfunction.

Your other systems sound  like a type of schizophrenia called
hebephrenic schizophrenia, and it is possible to treat it. There are
mixed results often times, but it is worth checking into.

If you have OCD, which I am not sure by your description of things, the
drug of choice for that is fluvoxamine (Luvox.)

I am virtually certain that you have multiple issues going on and you
may even have ADD (which I think normally is misdiagnosed, but can be
treated with Ritalin or Adderall, and if they help, what difference
does it make if that is the ultimate cause.

One question of interest I have, without getting into the reasoning
unless it pans out, is have you ever taken cocaine and if so, how
different do you find its effect from Ritalin or amphetamine?

MobiusDick
marcia - 01 May 2006 18:20 GMT
> It sounds like you have several things going on and you need to see a
> urologist and psychiatrist. If you have no sadness, you have no
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> MobiusDick

Are you kidding? Even a qualified psychiatrist wouldn't try to make a
diagnosis over the internet, and certainly not on the basis of a single
post.

Where do you get the idea this man has schizophrenia? He could have any
of a number of problems, including schizophrenia, but also including
PTSD, bipolar disorder and other problems. Most likely, he has a
combination of psychiatric issues, and needs to be seen by a competent
professional to get them sorted out.

The term "hebaphrenic" schizophrenic hasn't been in use since
approximately the 1970s. No one receives this diagnosis any more. The
"official" DSM-IV subtypes of schizophrenia are:

295.30  Paranoid type
295.10  Disorganized type
295.20  Catatonic type
295.90  Undifferentiated type
295.60  Residual type

And again, you have no way of knowing whether this man is
schizophrenic. Applying that diagnosis is simply irresponsible.

Further, there are quite a few first-line treatments for OCD, of which
Luvox is only one.

Only a doctor (possibly in concert with neuropsych tests by a
psychologist) can determine whether Ritalin (or Adderal, Concerta,
etc.) is an appropriate treatment for this man. You cannot simply say,
if it made you feel better, you should keep taking it. Amphetamines can
produce a euphoric state in many people; that doesn't make them an
appropriate treatment in all cases. Yes, it *does* matter what the
cause of his symptoms are.

No one should *ever* offer a diagnosis over the internet, especially
one not qualified to practice medicine. No one should *ever* rely on
usenet for diagnosis of *any* condition.

Hanif, please see a doctor in the real world.
MobiusDick - 02 May 2006 17:37 GMT
Fluvoxamine or Luvox is certainly the first line pharmacological
treatment for OCD, whether you believe it or not. In double blind
studies it is bar far the most effective drug available. Other SSRIs
work, but none as well as Luvox. So this is an area that you  should do
more research on before trying to exert your expertise, and unlike you,
I will give you specific journal articles supporting this, and not use
the lame excuse that you can look it up yourself.

MD
marcia - 02 May 2006 19:16 GMT
> Fluvoxamine or Luvox is certainly the first line pharmacological
> treatment for OCD, whether you believe it or not. In double blind
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> MD

I didn't say Luvox wasn't a first-line treatment; I said it wasn't the
ONLY first-line treatment. The expert consensus guidelines also list:
Fluoxetine, Clomipramine, Sertraline and Paroxetine.

Obviously, I wouldn't know the comparitive effectiveness of those
treatments, only that they are also listed as first-line.

Here's a link:

http://www.psychguides.com/ocgl.html#Guideline%203

In any case, had I known you were a pharmacist, I would simply have
deferred to you on that, since clearly you have much greater knowledge
of pharmacology (and I have virtually none at all). However, you didn't
offer any credentials when you made that statement, and you can't
expect every usenet wanderer to know your background simply because
you've been posting here for x-months/years/decades.

I did find quite a bit of your post inappropriate and have clearly
stated why. I don't really feel I need to reiterate my position on
that.

Can you patch your ego now?
marcia - 01 May 2006 19:36 GMT
> It sounds like you have several things going on and you need to see a
> urologist and psychiatrist. If you have no sadness, you have no
> depression.

One other point. A person most certainly *can* be clinically depressed,
even psychotically depressed, without feeling sadness. It's not all
that uncommon.

And I reiterate, he needs to see a psychiatrist, not rely on usenet for
a diagnosis.
MobiusDick - 01 May 2006 20:04 GMT
First of all, I told him to go to a psychiatrist as well as a
urologist. I am not trying to make a diagnosis over the Internet as I
am not a physician, but a pharmacologist (PhD). My credentials are not
adequate to diagnose people, but I have certainly had quite a lot of
training in CNS pharmacology, and even though my specialty is drugs of
abuse and not neuroleptics, but I am very well versed in the
pathophysiology of schizophrenia and depression.

Let's not get hung up on the semantics of sadness. It is hard for me to
accept depression without sadness deserving of pharmacological
intervention with SSRis or other antidepressants (and that is something
I am very much up on.)
Basically you are saying a person can be clinically depressed without
being depressed. This IMO is one of the reasons antidepressants are so
over-prescribed by general practitioners and internal medicine
specialists.

Secondly, even if hebephrenic schizophrenia is not the DSM IV's nom du
jour  for what harif has described, it fits with the description of
what is being discussed. With soft sciences like psychology, where
psychologists keep changing the name in each new addition into a maze
of confusion without regard to the pathology and pathophysiology in
question; but let mean keep in line with the DSM IV and give it a
number of 295.10 -Disorganized Type, so as to accommodate your issues
with my suggestion.

I would never diagnose someone over the Internet and always recommend
seeing a specialist who deals with these issues daily. But harif's
issue with urinary hesitancy is most likely urological or neurological
and not psychiatric in nature and I was recommending multiple
specialists to harif. So before you get too incensed over these things,
reread the post and get a better feel for it.

MobiusDick
Masahiro Saito - 01 May 2006 20:05 GMT
> First of all, I told him to go to a psychiatrist as well as a
> urologist. I am not trying to make a diagnosis over the Internet as I
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> MobiusDick

Get a lobotomy....DICK!  :-B
MobiusDick - 01 May 2006 20:18 GMT
I am glad you are able to keep things above board. I would never have
thought of such a witty comeback.

You see what she is doing here people is she is using my moniker,
MobiusDick and referring to me a DICK1 -B, and then she is telling me
to get my prefrontal lobe severed from the rest of my brain, which is
very clever because it is one of those instances in psychiatry where a
disservice was really done to patients in the name of science with
blatant disregard for their long term health.

Oh, that's clever. I wish I could come up with something as clever as
that. I guess I should stop learning about pharmacology and study the
art of the insult because Masahiro Saito, you are way ahead of
me...Touche'!

MobiusDick (aka DICK! -B)
% - 01 May 2006 20:21 GMT
> I am glad you are able to keep things above board. I would never have
> thought of such a witty comeback.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> MobiusDick (aka DICK! -B)

LOL
marcia - 01 May 2006 20:22 GMT
> First of all, I told him to go to a psychiatrist as well as a
> urologist. I am not trying to make a diagnosis over the Internet as I
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> MobiusDick

I read your post thoroughly. It contains a lot of misinformation and
yes, does appear to offer a diagnosis, as does *this* post in which you
suggest he has Schizophrenia, disorganized type. You have neither the
expertise nor sufficient evidence to determine his diagnosis. As I
stated before, his symptoms suggest a number of possible diagnoses, of
which schizophrenia is only one, and not even the most *likely* one.

He needs to be seen by a competent professional. He does *not* need
people speculating about the exact nature of his mental health problems
on Usenet.

You may be a PhD in pharmacology, but you're in over your head playing
psychiatrist. This is irresponsible behavior.

As far as your opinion about depression goes; it is simply that: an
opinion. Go to PubMed and do some research before proffering your
opinion as medical fact.

I do agree he should probably see more than one type of specialist.
MobiusDick - 01 May 2006 20:47 GMT
I did not publish my opinion as medical fact. I told him to go to the
doctor. I merely suggested some possibilities of what it sounds like in
my clinical experience,  but I did not tell him to ask his doctor for a
specific prescription. His symptoms reminded me of clinical patients in
pharmacological studies that had a Dx with or a Hx of "Disorganized
Schizophrenia," and yes I have seen quite a number of people in
clinical research with this diagnosis. You are mischaracterizing my
suggestion as a statement of fact.

Are you a psychiatrist or a psychologist or an undergraduate student? I
normally don't ask people on most of these NGs for their credentials,
but since you seem so determined to comment on opinions, I am just
wondering where you are coming from.

My main point for the post initially was to indicate that the issue of
urinary hesitancy was not likely from the psychiatric issues going on.
It could be a result of the anticholinergic effects of some
antidepressants or neuroleptics, but I do not recall harif saying he
was taking anything.

I also was interested in his experience with cocaine in relation to
Ritalin (methylphenidate) as cocaine affects serotonin reuptake in
addition to dopamine and norepinephrine, but methylphenidate and
amphetamines do not affect serotonin.

MobiusDick
Masahiro Saito - 01 May 2006 20:48 GMT
>I did not publish my opinion as medical fact.

Good! ;-B
MobiusDick - 01 May 2006 20:58 GMT
Can you point me to some data that support this position in MedLine or
PubMed with regard to depressed people who are not depressed or sad? I
am particularly interested in how pharmacotherapy helped them. I can
access specific journal articles if you have those as well without
going through PubMed so I can see the full article and not just the
abstract.

MobiusDick
MobiusDick - 01 May 2006 21:03 GMT
And you are absolutely correct that I am giving my opinion.

MD
Robert - 01 May 2006 21:10 GMT
> I would never diagnose someone over the Internet and always recommend
> seeing a specialist who deals with these issues daily. But harif's
> issue with urinary hesitancy is most likely urological or neurological
> and not psychiatric in nature

You are out of your field in eliminating a diagnosis based on statements
presented here on the net. Nothing has been ruled out including causes of
dysuria or polyuria.
You are accepting statements as fact which can be a serious mistake. You are
being led down a path set forth by the poster. You are accepting every word
at face value.
There is enough info here for someone to seek professional help. The rest is
speculation.
I welcome your expertise but please keep it in perspective. It may or may
not apply to any given case presented here. You want want to keep it in the
abstract or pertaining to a hypothetical or classic case.
Just my opinion of course.
marcia - 01 May 2006 21:52 GMT
> > I would never diagnose someone over the Internet and always recommend
> > seeing a specialist who deals with these issues daily. But harif's
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> abstract or pertaining to a hypothetical or classic case.
> Just my opinion of course.

Yes, your expertise in pharmacology is valuable, but when you speculate
about a psychiatric diagnosis on the basis of your "clinical
experience," you creating the mistaken impression that your "clinical
experience" includes special training in the diagnosis of mental
illness, which it does not. I hope you're not deliberately trying to
mislead people in order to appear the expert.

Additionally, you are clearly *not* current on psychiatric research
(save pharmacology, I hope), or you would know hebaphrenia ceased to be
a valid diagnosis about 30 years ago. We're not talking about some
recent or minor change to the DSM, which, incidentally, is published by
the American Psychiatric Association, not by psychologists.

As far as the PubMed search goes, you should be able to handle that
yourself. Clinical signs and symptoms of depression is not an obscure
topic.

The bottom line is, what is responsible behavior with regard to the OP?
The only answer can be to advise him to seek professional medical help.
Any speculation as to his diagnosis is unwarranted and irresponsible,
and could have a negative impact on his life.

This is not about you: it's about him.
MobiusDick - 01 May 2006 22:44 GMT
Hebephrenic Schizophrenia is part of the ICD-10 Classification of
Mental and Behavioral Disorders from the World Health Organization,
Geneva, 1992 . Its Dx Code is F20.1 in case you are interested in other
books beside the DSM IV. It is still not uncommon to use this
terminology, for future reference

I am just amazed how several of you do not see the part of the post
that says: "See a psychiatrist and a urologist" You seem to want to nit
pick with me and try to put forth your expertise in the matter. I have
openly said that i am not qualified to diagnose anyone. Giving someone
a suggestion as to my previous experience is not anything like what you
are talking about,  and it should not have any effect if they take my
primary advice and go see a doctor. My speculation cannot possibly have
a negative impact on his life one way or another. If he goes to a
doctor then the doctor will diagnose him. If he doesn't then my
suggestion is equally irrelevant as I am not mailing him neuroleptics
to take for  a Dx of DSM IV 295.10. So come down of your high horse and
stop telling people they are doing someone a disservice by suggesting
they see a doctor.

What exactly are your credentials to determine what his symptomatology
suggests? You seem to be up on depression without sadness and I figured
you could just send me a reference so I could see where your opinions
stem from without wasting my time hunting for a needle in a haystack.
(From several clues in your writing I suspect you are either an
undergraduate psychology student or someone who is fairly well
self-educated because they suffer from depression. But of course that
is just opinion.)

MobiusDick
MobiusDick - 01 May 2006 22:12 GMT
That is what I suggested harif do is to see a psychiatrist and a
urologist. No one is assuming anything or saying anything is fact. I am
saying to go to more than one type of physician. Unless he is on a
medication that anticholinergic effects, then he should not rely on a
psychiatrist alone.

I know all of you want to seem to jump on someone, but my advice was
the same as yours:. See a doctor!. I am not a psychiatrist, or a
urologist. But as a pharmacologist, I know enough pathophysiology to
put my 2 cents in. No one is writing harif a script.. So again, let me
make it plain and simple: he should see a doctor: a psychiatrist and a
urologist, and I am more than qualified to recommend that.

MobiusDick
% - 01 May 2006 22:14 GMT
Robert - 01 May 2006 23:25 GMT
> That is what I suggested harif do is to see a psychiatrist and a
> urologist. No one is assuming anything or saying anything is fact. I am
> saying to go to more than one type of physician. Unless he is on a
> medication that anticholinergic effects, then he should not rely on a
> psychiatrist alone.

One generally looks at the major complaint first and the first thing
mentioned was depression.

"An Ultrasound scan showed nothing to be physically wrong
with my bladder".

I take it he say a urologist already. No mention as to diagnosis.

> I know all of you want to seem to jump on someone, but my advice was
> the same as yours:. See a doctor!. I am not a psychiatrist, or a
> urologist. But as a pharmacologist, I know enough pathophysiology to
> put my 2 cents in. No one is writing harif a script..

My only complaint, and it seems unique in some ways, this is a psychiatric
case with special issues. You never know how the OP will take words
presented here. He may be fishing for issues or how they are accepted or
presented. He might not want to take antidepressants based on your statement
that they can lead to further urinary symptoms. He may accept the script and
never fill it and tell the doctor he is taking them. No one knows. We had a
coworker with psych problems and believe me that people were very careful on
what and how they said things to them. They live in their own reality.
I don't have a problem with a direct question and answer such as can this
drug cause this or that or if specific meds are mentioned.
That is a part of patient education. It's just a double edge sword when it
comes to dealing with people who are undiagnosed. Once a diagnosis is made
then information comes more freely.
I may be wrong in that the urologist who found nothing wrong might have
recommended a psych consultation. Don't know if he got one or not. He got a
hold of different meds and again no mention on how or who and it sounds as
though he did not get them from a psychiatrist.

So again, let me
> make it plain and simple: he should see a doctor: a psychiatrist and a
> urologist, and I am more than qualified to recommend that.
>
> MobiusDick

Fair enough but it seems he doesn't want to go to a psychiatrist or doesn't
want to admit it if he did and doesn't agree with the diagnosis. My
speculation only but he doesn't want to see a pysch. Why would someone who
presents all the psych stuff about himself and takes psych meds not want to
see a psych?
% - 01 May 2006 23:28 GMT
hi
Masahiro Saito - 01 May 2006 23:36 GMT
MobiusDick@gmail.com - 02 May 2006 16:13 GMT
Robert,
I appreciate your civility in discussing this and you are on target
with most of what you are saying. I am unaware of a psychiatric
condition causing the urinary hesitancy harif is talking about prior to
being medicated. After pharmacotherapy it is not uncommon though.

One additional point though is that I actually teach medical students a
semester long course in CNS pharmacology. During this course we cover
neuroleptics and different effects and side effects that the specific
drugs and classes of drugs are known for, as well as what specific
research has indicated works best with what diagnosis. Marcia's
assertion that hebephrenic schizophrenia is an archaic term is just
plain wrong. It may have changed in the DSM IV from the DSM III, but it
is still in use, regardless of what billing code insurance companies
want you to put down for reimbursement.

I also teach a course in Principles of Drug Action, and Drugs of Abuse,
usually to Pharmaceutical Science graduate students. The former class
talks about neuroleptics considerably and the latter class is mostly
about the interactions of the drugs of abuse with the dopaminergic
system (as the Nucleus Accumbens, a dopaminergic nucleus, is the
ultimate location of reward.)

In order to teach CNS pharmacology, you  must understand pathology,
physiology, pathophysiology, psychology, neuroanatomy, and
neurophysiology in addition to autonomic, endocrine and CNS
pharmacology. During my graduate education and post doc, I have had to
take courses in all of these subjects. I have done considerable
clinical  work on drugs of abuse, and have very often seen repeated
psychiatric diagnoses first hand.

While I think no one should post to a newsgroup and expect a diagnosis
and information as to what medication they should be taking, harif is
obviously reaching out for some help. I hope he takes my advice to go
see a doctor, but I do not find it inappropriate to comment on
possibilities; however, no one should take these as anything more than
they are, speculation with very limited information

I have had plenty of experience with people who are on drugs that are
contraindicated with each other, or do not make much sense to use with
a specific diagnosis; and this seems to be quite common. Internal
medicine physicians seem to me to be guilty of the most egregious
violations of this type. They seem to think they can treat everything
instead of referring someone to a specialise. In today's world of HMOs,
I see this time and time again.

I am more than happy to discuss things in a civil way with people, and
I try not to get lead into a tete-a-tete with someone I don't know if
it devolves into name calling and insults. It is not productive. Marcia
was just appalled that I would suggest some diagnosis, instead of
reading the post for what it was: a suggestion to see some doctors, and
a question to get a piece of anecdotal data from harif as to whether he
tried cocaine, since he had said he tried methylphenidate and it helped
him.

MobiusDick
marcia - 02 May 2006 19:03 GMT
> I am more than happy to discuss things in a civil way with people, and
> I try not to get lead into a tete-a-tete with someone I don't know if
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> MobiusDick

You've hit the nail on the head: I was appalled that you would suggest
a diagnosis. That's what I felt was inappropriate, and that was pretty
much my only issue with you. I may have gone off on you a bit because
laypeople (as in not MDs) offering medical or psychological/psyciatric
diagnoses is a real hot button for me, but I don't recall calling you
names, if you're referring to me.

I read your suggestion that he see a doctor; I just felt it was
overshadowed by your psychological assessment of him. I didn't comment
at all on the methylphenidate question.

You can continue to rail at me if you want, but as far as I'm concerned
the matter is closed.
Robert - 02 May 2006 20:04 GMT
> Robert,
> I appreciate your civility in discussing this and you are on target
> with most of what you are saying. I am unaware of a psychiatric
> condition causing the urinary hesitancy harif is talking about prior to
> being medicated. After pharmacotherapy it is not uncommon though.

The history and what he means by such descriptions of his problems really
need to be evaluated. People will use common terms that may or may not
apply. I might be wrong but it seems he is going to pee often and very
little is coming out. I don't know if what we are dealing with. Is it a form
of incontinence?
Some TCA drugs are actually used in treating incontinence because of their
anticholinergic action and yet such drugs may make prostatitis worse in some
patients who also have urgency symptoms after ejaculation. Some of these
patients have the urge to pee every 30 minutes. Then you have the polyuria
of going often but associated with high volumes.

> One additional point though is that I actually teach medical students a
> semester long course in CNS pharmacology. During this course we cover
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> is still in use, regardless of what billing code insurance companies
> want you to put down for reimbursement.

There are medications such as lithium that can cause nephrogenic DI and
polyuria along with other meds.
I have been working for 30 years in this field and have seen many name
changes. Don't let that bother you.

> I also teach a course in Principles of Drug Action, and Drugs of Abuse,
> usually to Pharmaceutical Science graduate students. The former class
> talks about neuroleptics considerably and the latter class is mostly
> about the interactions of the drugs of abuse with the dopaminergic
> system (as the Nucleus Accumbens, a dopaminergic nucleus, is the
> ultimate location of reward.)

Cool. Let me ask you a question about that. The manufacturer includes TCA
drugs in a urine drug abuse screen kits. Are TCA used or abused as such?
They have the obvious THC, Coc, Ampth, Opiates, Ben etc but sometimes we get
positives for TCA and really can't say why they would be positive. Any clue?
TCA is not included in our maternal or neonatal abuse screen which have
medical-legal implications but only in our general tox screen abuse screen.

> In order to teach CNS pharmacology, you  must understand pathology,
> physiology, pathophysiology, psychology, neuroanatomy, and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> possibilities; however, no one should take these as anything more than
> they are, speculation with very limited information

He mentions suicide and a psychological intervention is appropriate. He has
had this for 12 years? That is plenty of time for him to have done something
but he hasn't although he has seen a urologist. I am guilty also sometimes
of offering apparent suggestions or diagnosis or telling people to look up
such and such conditions, so I can't say that I haven't done the same thing.
Questions about certain meds or drug interactions and pharmacology are your
expertise so I understand your attraction to the topic.

> I have had plenty of experience with people who are on drugs that are
> contraindicated with each other, or do not make much sense to use with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> instead of referring someone to a specialise. In today's world of HMOs,
> I see this time and time again.

True, again at the hospital I used to work at a pharmacist would always go
on every code blue arrest cases called out on the overhead. I asked him why
they did that and he said the same thing you did. He was a good buddy and I
would work with him all the time.

> I am more than happy to discuss things in a civil way with people, and
> I try not to get lead into a tete-a-tete with someone I don't know if
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> MobiusDick

On usnet people post and it's there for life. No chance to modify or change
anything. I have made a few mistakes on some of my posts so it's best to
take a more flexible position.
Marcia has some good posts out there and she is new here whereas you have
been here awhile.
never9@libero.it - 01 May 2006 16:52 GMT
>I don't think I suffer from depression.

I agree at all.
You need a  *good* psychiatrist.
©®©@®.©®© - 01 May 2006 19:20 GMT
> Hello everyone,I have a quite unusla case of what I think is a form of
> depression.I hope somone can be kind enough to read my case: Even from
[quoted text clipped - 166 lines]
> very unusual case, I hope no one feels the need the flame my post.
> Bye my friends.

You need to get laid and stop jacking off!

Signature

.

Linda Gore - 01 May 2006 20:05 GMT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2014244.stm

Thursday, 30 May, 2002, 06:21 GMT 07:21 UK
Religious 'vulnerable to compulsion'

Religious people may be anxious about right and wrong

Devout Catholics are more likely to show symptoms of
obsessive-compulsive disorder than less religious people, a study has
found.
The finding adds weight to the theory that a strict religious
upbringing may make people more prone to the psychological problem.

Common obsessions
Fear of contamination
Fear of causing harm to another
Fear of making a mistake
Fear of behaving in a socially unacceptable manner
Need for symmetry or exactness
Obsessive-compulsive disorder is an anxiety disorder in which people
are persistantly compelled to carry out ritualised behaviour in
response to recurring thoughts which are often completely irrational.

For instance, sufferers often become obessesed with the notion that
they are contaminated with germs, leading to hour upon hour of washing.

The condition can become so bad that it prevents people from leading a
normal life.

The causes of the disorder, which affects at least 5 million Americans
and a million Britons, are still obscure.

But genes, upbringing, head injuries and emotional trauma have all been
implicated.

New Scientist magazine reports that researchers from the University of
Parma in Italy have found that committed Catholics are more likely to
show symptoms of OCD.

Not conclusive

Common Compulsions
Hand washing
Ordering
Checking
Praying
Repeating words silently
The scientists compared people, such as nuns and priests who worked in
the church, with committed lay Catholics and others with virtually no
religious involvement.

Each subject was asked to document mild OCD symptoms, such as intrusive
mental images or worries. The more devout Catholics reported more
severe symptoms.

The researchers stress that their study does not prove that religious
devotion early in life causes OCD.

They say it is possible that people with a tendency to develop the
condition may also be attracted by the religious lifestyle.

Dr Lynne Drummond, a psychiatrist at St George's Hospital, said that it
was likely that people must have a genetic predisposition to develop
symptoms of OCD.

However, she said many OCD patients do say they had a strict upbringing
where actions were either right or wrong, black or white.

Personal responsbility

Ian Hancock, an expert in OCD from Dumfries and Galloway Primary Care
NHS Trust, believes that although there is probably a genetic compotent
to the condition, environmental factors, such as parenting, are likely
to play an important role in its development.

He said people with OCD tended to have an exaggerated sense of their
own responsibility for events, often when no blame could possibly be
attached to them.

"As a religion catholicism does rather tend to emphasise personal
responsibility, guilt and right and wrong.

"Any strong teaching that emphasises these issues in a very powerful
way could be additional pressure for somebody who is prone to feeling
guilt in the first place.

"It could well be a factor contributing towards the development of an
obsessional-compulsive coping strategy."

Mr Hancock said it was important that devout Catholics who found
themselves struggling with OCD took on board the broad teachings of the
church, and tried not to focus exclusively on the elements that
emphasised personal responsibility.

A spokesman for the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales
said: "This survey needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

"It would very interesting to know the size of the sample on which it
was based.

"Certainly, I have heard of no Catholic clergy in England and Wales who
even have the symptoms of obsessive-compulsive disorder."

There is evidence to suggest that a religious belief can aid mental
health.

> Bye my friends.
Robert - 01 May 2006 21:23 GMT
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2014244.stm
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> are persistantly compelled to carry out ritualised behaviour in
> response to recurring thoughts which are often completely irrational.

If I understand you correctly, are you saying the poster knew this already
as portrayed in the popular literature and is using it as a red herring to
hide his real guilt of a homosexual tendency that is less readily acceptable
by the religious community?
Do you have independent knowledge that his parents are overly religious or
are you simply taking his statements at face value?
You have a person with admitted psychiatric problems here and nobody knows
the real issues behind all of this.
Linda Gore - 01 May 2006 22:41 GMT
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2014244.stm
> >
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> hide his real guilt of a homosexual tendency that is less readily acceptable
> by the religious community?

Don't put words in my mouth.

The article was posted to validate the original posters belief that
people subjected to his conditioning are at risk for developing OCD.

Since the poster explicitly stated his sexual development was normal
your libeling the poster as suffering homosexuality doesn't dignify a
response.

> Do you have independent knowledge that his parents are overly religious or
> are you simply taking his statements at face value?

Err,  the only people who question unmet strangers perceptions are
psycho's who perceive themselves as Deities empowered to define
reality.

> You have a person with admitted psychiatric problems here and nobody knows
> the real issues behind all of this.

Excuse me?

I don't know that the original poster is a person with a psychiatric
condition.

People with untreated polyuria exhibit psych symptoms.

The poster would be wise to steer clear of all mental health
professionals unless the poster continues to have psych symptoms AFTER
the cuase of his polyuria is identified and treated.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/sym/polyuria.htm#possible

Possible causes of symptom: Polyuria: The following medical conditions
are some of the possible causes of Polyuria as a symptom. There are
likely to be other possible causes, so ask your doctor about your
symptoms.

Urinary tract infections
Bladder conditions
Interstitial cystitis
Prostate conditions
Enlarged prostate
Benign prostate hypertrophy
Diabetes
Undiagnosed diabetes
Type 1 diabetes
Type 2 diabetes
Poorly controlled diabetes
DKA
HHNS
Diabetes insipidus
Chronic renal failure
Aldosteronism
Hypercalcemia
Hypokalemia
Congestive heart failure
Noctural polyuria syndrome
Certain medications
Robert - 02 May 2006 00:23 GMT
>> > If I understand you correctly, are you saying the poster knew this
already
> > as portrayed in the popular literature and is using it as a red herring to
> > hide his real guilt of a homosexual tendency that is less readily acceptable
> > by the religious community?
>
> Don't put words in my mouth.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth only interpreting your post in my eyes.

> The article was posted to validate the original posters belief that
> people subjected to his conditioning are at risk for developing OCD.

How do you know he was subjected to such conditioning?
Because he read an article that said so?
Do you believe in satanism in which children were exposed by their parents
to other children being eaten and sacraficed?
How do you know he has OCD? There is no diagnosis of such only his words. I
tend to question what is true or not in his case.

<Since the poster explicitly stated his sexual development was <normal
<your libeling the poster as suffering homosexuality doesn't dignify <a
<response.

If you are referring to excessive masturbation tendencies or hyposexual
tendencies? There can be other explanations for that including child abuse.
Let me ask the OP if he was molested as a child?

<Err,  the only people who question unmet strangers perceptions <are
<psycho's who perceive themselves as Deities empowered to <define reality.

I am not defining reality, especially not the OP's. He is questioning his
own reality and wants to know how to change it. He has tried drugs without
supervision and is disparate.

> > You have a person with admitted psychiatric problems here and nobody knows
> > the real issues behind all of this.
>
> Excuse me?

The OP has admitted psych problems that is leading you down a path he wants
you to go.

> I don't know that the original poster is a person with a psychiatric
> condition.

?????

Anybody who feels unhealthy mentally has mental illness by definition. If
the person feels it is a problem, then it's a problem.

> People with untreated polyuria exhibit psych symptoms.

True enough and people with psychogenic polyuria are treated by
psychiatrists. One of the screening tests is a water deprivation tests in
which they try and sneak out to drink water. This, after a urologist has
seen him and nothing else can be found. He saw a urologist according to him.
Whether that is true about the urologist or not I don't know, ask him.

> The poster would be wise to steer clear of all mental health
> professionals unless the poster continues to have psych symptoms AFTER
> the cuase of his polyuria is identified and treated.

"The past 12 years of my life have been hell on earth. I had no idea life
would be so cruel. I have thought of suicide many times."

"An Ultrasound scan showed nothing to be physically wrong
with my bladder."

There is no diagnosis of polyuria. There is an increase urgency according to
him which isn't mentioned in his later years I believe.

Your advice to stay clear of mental health professionals under the
circumstances above are pathetic.
Linda Gore - 02 May 2006 17:45 GMT
> >> > If I understand you correctly, are you saying the poster knew this
> already
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I wasn't putting words in your mouth only interpreting your post in my eyes.

I posted an article without comment.

You put words in my mouth by replying   "are you saying blah,  blah,
blah"   where I had *said*  absolutely nothing.

> > The article was posted to validate the original posters belief that
> > people subjected to his conditioning are at risk for developing OCD.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> How do you know he has OCD? There is no diagnosis of such only his words. I
> tend to question what is true or not in his case.

Who the hell are you to question another persons truth?

> <Since the poster explicitly stated his sexual development was <normal
> <your libeling the poster as suffering homosexuality doesn't dignify <a
> <response.
>
>  If you are referring to excessive masturbation tendencies or hyposexual
> tendencies? There can be other explanations for that including child abuse.

According to whom?

Some quackologists little theory?

The poster probably has an undiagnosed untreated general medical
condition.

It's UNETHICAL for quackologists to thrust their insane little theories
on unsuspecting people unless or until the unsuspecting persons medical
doctors have referred the unsuspecting person to a quackologist because
medical doctors have exhausted all efforts to identity and treat the
unsuspecting persons general medical condition.

> <Err,  the only people who question unmet strangers perceptions <are
> <psycho's who perceive themselves as Deities empowered to <define reality.
>
> I am not defining reality, especially not the OP's. He is questioning his
> own reality and wants to know how to change it. He has tried drugs without
> supervision and is disparate.

The poster is NOT questioning his reality.

The poster is attempting to make sense of his reality based upon the
facts at his command.

The problem is that the poster may have an undiagnosed, untreated
medical condition; therefore,  is probably lacking factual info
necessary to make sense of his reality.

Hence,  the poster attempt to make sense of his reality is half-baked
wrt cause and effect.

> > > You have a person with admitted psychiatric problems here and nobody
> knows
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The OP has admitted psych problems that is leading you down a path he wants
> you to go.

Fat chance of anyone leading me down a path THEY want me to go.

I am not a follower!

> > I don't know that the original poster is a person with a psychiatric
> > condition.
>
> ?????
>
> Anybody who feels unhealthy mentally has mental illness by definition.

False.

> If the person feels it is a problem, then it's a problem.

The OP isn't capable of assessing his condition.

> > The poster would be wise to steer clear of all mental health
> > professionals unless the poster continues to have psych symptoms AFTER
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Your advice to stay clear of mental health professionals under the
> circumstances above are pathetic.

IMO,  you are the one whose behaviour is pathetic.

The posters polyuria,  his atypical symptoms of depression,  in combo
with his thinking errors and leaps in logic that's suggestive of the
*brain fog* characteristic of endocrine conditions led me to advise the
poster to steer clear of mental health professionals until the poster
has been thoroughly tested for  ALL general medical conditions whose
symptoms include polyuria,  atypical symptoms of depression,  and brain
fog.

Hyperparathyroidism is amongst the first thing I suggest he get tested
for..

In a world of competing truths-----ASD-med posters are entitled to
receive replies from posters with competing perspectives---so they
might pick and chose the ideas,  suggestions and advice the poster
needed or wanted to hear,  and leave the rest.

Seek professional help if you can't cope with competing truths,
competing perspectives etc.
% - 02 May 2006 17:47 GMT
LETS DO THE CROSS POST AGAIN
Robert - 02 May 2006 22:05 GMT
> > >> > If I understand you correctly, are you saying the poster knew this
> > already
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I posted an article without comment.

The author of the article did not post it here and you did wanting to convey
something. Was it that the OP made a self diagnosis of ODC and blamed it on
his parents religious views for causing it and you validating those
statements with this article?

> You put words in my mouth by replying   "are you saying blah,  blah,
> blah"   where I had *said*  absolutely nothing.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Who the hell are you to question another persons truth?

Excuse the misspelled words above as I just caught one up there. ;-).

The truth as he stated is that he has been living in hell the past 12 years.
It's time to change that truth. Everything else is open for interpretation.

> > <Since the poster explicitly stated his sexual development was <normal
> > <your libeling the poster as suffering homosexuality doesn't dignify <a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> According to whom?

I am opening the door for all posibilities and you wish to close those
doors.

> Some quackologists little theory?

Theories don't hurt people. People hurt themselves. If the shoe fits and
relief is there then that is all that is important.

> The poster probably has an undiagnosed untreated general medical
> condition.

For over 12 years? If it was solely a medical condition why all the
pyschological commentary on his part?

> It's UNETHICAL for quackologists to thrust their insane little theories
> on unsuspecting people unless or until the unsuspecting persons medical
> doctors have referred the unsuspecting person to a quackologist because
> medical doctors have exhausted all efforts to identity and treat the
> unsuspecting persons general medical condition.

That is correct, especially in a hospital setting. When a patient comes into
the ER then basic diagnostic testing is carried out and if the ER doctors
can not still figure out whats going on then another doctor called a
psychiatrist is called in and then makes a recommendation if it's a medical
case in which more diagnostic tests are carried out or a transfer to the
psych ward is made.
Psychiatrist are medical doctors.

> > <Err,  the only people who question unmet strangers perceptions <are
> > <psycho's who perceive themselves as Deities empowered to <define reality.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> The poster is NOT questioning his reality.

The poster wants to change the reality that he lives in. He is asking why
does he have to live that way and that is questioning his reality.

> The poster is attempting to make sense of his reality based upon the
> facts at his command.

His command is effected in much the same way an anorexic sees themselves as
overweight.
Drug abuse can have long lasting effects long after one stops taking drugs.
The history is incomplete here.

> The problem is that the poster may have an undiagnosed, untreated
> medical condition; therefore,  is probably lacking factual info
> necessary to make sense of his reality.

He has had an ultrasound of his bladder and has seen a medical doctor for
his urological problems.
Nothing has stopped him from going to a medical doctor except his perception
on reality.

> Hence,  the poster attempt to make sense of his reality is half-baked
> wrt cause and effect.

Medical conditions are diagnosed by medical doctors and he has elected not
to go to one in 12 years if I understand him correctly.
That is his reality. A psychiatrist would take that as a first step and do
anything to rid of that medical concern and then follow-up with him to the
next level.

> > > > You have a person with admitted psychiatric problems here and nobody
> > knows
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I am not a follower!

You can't even see the inconsistency of why does not do what you are asking
of him. He saw a urologist and there is a diagnosis out there on his
urological condition. He elected not to tell us what that was. That is a
part of his reality. Maybe he saw many doctors out there and really doesn't
trust them?

> > > I don't know that the original poster is a person with a psychiatric
> > > condition.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> The OP isn't capable of assessing his condition.

A medical doctor can't prevent him from committing suicide. A mental health
professional needs to be involved.

> > > The poster would be wise to steer clear of all mental health
> > > professionals unless the poster continues to have psych symptoms AFTER
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Hyperparathyroidism is amongst the first thing I suggest he get tested
> for..

That's great but to have hyperparthyroidism for 12 years with such severe
symptoms?
Hypercalemia is a medical emergency and usually presents to hospital at that
stage. They or the urologist would have performed a chemistry panel which
includes a calcium, K, glucose, Na,) and check for diuretic, lithium or
hydronephrosis.

> In a world of competing truths-----ASD-med posters are entitled to
> receive replies from posters with competing perspectives---so they
> might pick and chose the ideas,  suggestions and advice the poster
> needed or wanted to hear,  and leave the rest.

True. One seeks what they want to hear. He will not see a psychiatrist or
psychologist. He already saw a urologist.

> Seek professional help if you can't cope with competing truths,
> competing perspectives etc.

I was giving my opinions as you are and wasn't asking, like the poster here,
for advice.
I am posting out of Sci.med.
Linda Gore - 04 May 2006 01:00 GMT
> > > >> > If I understand you correctly, are you saying the poster knew this
> > > already
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> The author of the article did not post it here and you did wanting to convey
> something.

I see!

You have a self-serving agenda for posting articles you post;
therefore,  everyone must have an agenda .

Wrong!

I posted the article because it PLEASURED me to be able to locate and
post an article on a subject another poster expressed interest in.

> Was it that the OP made a self diagnosis of ODC and blamed it on
> his parents religious views for causing it and you validating those
> statements with this article?

As it happens,  the article I recalled was one which validated the OP
belief that a dash of OCD may be the price children of devout parents
pay for being raised by devout parents.

The fact that the substance of what the author had to say validated the
OP added to the pleasure I experienced because I could locate and post
an article on the subject the OP expressed interest in----but it wasn't
my MOTIVE for posting the article.

My sole motive for posting the article was PLEASURING myself by
performing a random act of kindness.

> > You put words in my mouth by replying   "are you saying blah,  blah,
> > blah"   where I had *said*  absolutely nothing.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> The truth as he stated is that he has been living in hell the past 12 years.
> It's time to change that truth. Everything else is open for interpretation.

I see.

So your questioning/rejecting his truth is selective.

You accept at face value what you want to---and reject the rest of what
the OP in favor of what your perverted mind incited you to imagine is
true.

You don't mind if I dub you Mark D. Morin The Second.

Before Mark D. Morin, psyd was imprisoned for sexually molesting a 10
year old patient of his whom he was bedding and taking nude photograpsh
of----Mark  D. Morin projecting his homosexuality on a precipitated the
young boy's suicide.

> > > <Since the poster explicitly stated his sexual development was <normal
> > > <your libeling the poster as suffering homosexuality doesn't dignify <a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I am opening the door for all posibilities and you wish to close those
> doors.

Bullshit.

What you are doing is summarily dismisiing,  discounting,  invalidating
any facts the OP presented to obtain feedback about possible medical
conditions his symptoms may be secondary to which might lead him to
identity and get treatment for a very real medical problem----to set
the stage for quackology to manufacture yet another VICTIM.

> > Some quackologists little theory?
>
> Theories don't hurt people.

The de-civilization of american society since quackolgy gained a
toehold says otherwise.

> > The poster probably has an undiagnosed untreated general medical
> > condition.
>
> For over 12 years? If it was solely a medical condition why all the
> pyschological commentary on his part?

Puh-lese!

Quackolgists have made the USA a *therapeutic state* where nearly every
man,  women and child psychiatrizes what ails them.

I am an intuitive person; therefore,  I can't explain or defend my
initial impression or pre-cognitions in response to what posters
describe in their posts to ASD-med.

Since I can't explain or defend my impression aka precognitions---I
withhold comment until I feel can explain or defend my thoughts,  just
like I withheld my thoughts in this thread until you BAITED me into
sharing my initial impressions or *precognitions*.

I have been living with a thyroid condition for over a quarter of a
century; therefore,  I am predisposed to consider the possibility that
the symptoms some people describe may be secondary to a general medical
condition.

I am also blind as a bat---so perhaps  my brain compensates for the
visual impairment in a manner that makes me attuned to STUFF which
other readers with normal sight aren't attuned to---I don't know.

The particular set of symptoms the  OP described (thus far) are
symptoms which I personally classify as symptomatic of a *brown-out* of
certain brain centers secondary to a medical condition---rather than
symptoms of MDD or the *black* dog which bonafide headcases describe.

> > It's UNETHICAL for quackologists to thrust their insane little theories
> > on unsuspecting people unless or until the unsuspecting persons medical
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> psych ward is made.
> Psychiatrist are medical doctors.

It's true that one must be a medical doctor in order to become a
psychiatrist.

However,  once a medical doctor puts on the  hat of a quackiatrist the
medical doctor has ceased practicing the science of medicine and
started practicing quackiatry, a field which  merely modeled itself
after the science of medicine---but is NOT an actual  medical science

Hence--- quackiatry is to medical science what a balsa model airplane
is to a 747---or astrology is to astronomy.

But,  we are digressing---since we weren't discussing what
quackiatrists do when medical doctors consult them in hospital
settings---we were discussing the unethicalness of anonymous
quackologists or quackiatrists infiltrating consumer support groups and
thrusting their whacked out theories on unsuspecting total strangers.

You acknowledge the reality that the mere fact that the poster posted
about his woes to a public unmoderate ng suggests the poster may be as
desperate as he claimed---
yet,  you chose to post a whacked out theory of a perverted nature that
was almost certain to alienate that particular poster.

Whatever were you thinking---blurting out the crap you did?

Support groups like alt.support.depression.medication are the SECOND to
last resort for people who have been unable to make sense of their
reality or improve it.

Alt.suicide.holiday and alt.suicide.methods are the last resort.

> > > <Err,  the only people who question unmet strangers perceptions <are
> > > <psycho's who perceive themselves as Deities empowered to <define
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> The poster wants to change the reality that he lives in. He is asking why
> does he have to live that way and that is questioning his reality.

> > The poster is attempting to make sense of his reality based upon the
> > facts at his command.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Nothing has stopped him from going to a medical doctor except his perception
> on reality.

Are you sure about that?

If my hypothesis is correct----about his suffering a *brown out*
secondary to a general medical condition---then his executive function
may be  impaired and the OP may lack the ability to engage in abstract
thought,  planning,  and/or lack the initiative to go through the
motions of contacting all the specialists he needs to contact in order
to rule out all possible general medical conditions his symptoms are
secondary to.

Furthermore,  "brown outs" impair the pleasure center---which means he
doesn't get any feelings of pleasure or gratification for going through
the motions that would otherwise act as a reinforcer for going through
the motions anyway.

His negative perceptions of reality could be totally the product of his
depressed physical state---not vice versa.

Fix the depressed phyical state,  and,  the OP  won't be ruminating
about the past,  nor dwelling on his parents devoutedness,  nor be the
least bit concerned about his dash of OCD etc.

Don't fix the physical problem---and,  no amount of cognitive therapy
will work since his ability to think in linear terms is impaired.

Have you no knowledge of depressed states that are secondary to thyroid
disease,  or glucose intolerance or lack of oxygenation of the brain
owing to asthma and other respitory conditions----or sleep deprivation
from apnea or on account of PLMD,  etc?

You should if you really worked in a hospital for 30 years....seeing
how at least
one in seven people whom quackiatry involuntarily commits don't have
any psychiatric condition,  they have thyroid disease---and,  the posts
to ASD-med these last six years are evidence that quackiatry has also
been abusing all the asthmatics,   the glucose intolerant,  lyme
disease sufferers,  and all the APNEA/PLMD sleep deprived people which
quackiatry can gets their greedy little hands on.

> > Hence,  the poster attempt to make sense of his reality is half-baked
> > wrt cause and effect.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> anything to rid of that medical concern and then follow-up with him to the
> next level.

I can vouch for the fact that ethical quackiatrists would do
that----since the quackiatrist I consulted when the stalking therapist
attempted to brainwash me into falsely believing I had a psych
condition----summarily rejected the idea---and,  sent me right back to
my medical doctors who eventually vindicated the pdoc by their
belatedly discovering my tests hadn't been being read---or weren't
being read accurate;y.

But,  I was damn lucky to have consulted an ethical
quackiatrist---since they are a dying breed.

Given the damage a quackiatrist can do to people without psych
conditions----I advise people I suspect might have a general medical
condtion to steer clear of quackiatrists until after medical doctors
have exhausted all efforts to identity an organic cause for their
malaise.

Medical doctors are quite capable of treating symptoms of depression
even where the person has suicidal ideations.

So it's not as if their symptoms of depression will go untreated by
sticking with medical doctors and steering clear of quackiatrsts at
first.

> > > > > You have a person with admitted psychiatric problems here and nobody
> > > knows
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> part of his reality. Maybe he saw many doctors out there and really doesn't
> trust them?

A poster who characterizes his parents devotion to religion as
*cultist* is far more likely to see an endocrinologist then a member of
the CULT of psycyiatry.

Can you see the inconsistantcy of your advising a person who
characterized his parents religiousity as cultist,  to consult a member
of the  CULT of psychiartry?

I gotta go....now.

will try to reply to rest later...
% - 04 May 2006 01:08 GMT
Linda Gore - 04 May 2006 18:33 GMT
> > > If the person feels it is a problem, then it's a problem.
> >
> > The OP isn't capable of assessing his condition.
>
> A medical doctor can't prevent him from committing suicide. A mental health
> professional needs to be involved.