Medical Forum / General / General / April 2006
Layman question about vaccination
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Squark - 17 Apr 2006 11:54 GMT Hello everyone
The most famous success of vaccination was the eradication of smallpos using cowpox. Supposedly after taking the cowpox vaccine your immune system gets to "study the virus" and learn to produce suitable antibodies which allow you to cope with smallpox viruses you might catch later. The question is, what prevents your immune system from doing the same with the actual smallpox viruses, without any vaccination beforehand? How come a non-vaccinated person who caught smallpox can actually die from it? Does the immune system fail to start producing the antibodies, or does it start "too late" in some sense? I used cowpox / smallpox as an example, but the question is really relevant to other vaccines as well.
Thx a lot for any help!
Best regards, Squark
Rusmir G - 17 Apr 2006 14:36 GMT As far as I know, you do not get the actual virus in the vaccine. What vaccine contains is a "disabled" virus and on that count the human immune system is able to train the "army" and introduce the enemy to them. It is like bringing the molester with his hands tied in front of a victim and let the victim learn/train how to defend itself (and revenge also) :o), without fear of getting hurt.
> Hello everyone > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Best regards, > Squark Robert - 17 Apr 2006 18:53 GMT > Hello everyone > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The question is, what prevents your immune system from doing the same > with the actual smallpox viruses, without any vaccination beforehand? There are two types of antibodies. One are protective blocking or neutralizing and the others are only markers of disease. They are present but are not protective in avoiding future disease or present disease. Vaccines are produced in obtaining protective antibodies in some diseases while other diseases are without vaccines. Natural infection can produce life long immunity in some cases. In others it does not and it all depends on the types of antibodies produced. It takes time to produce such antibodies with the earlier ones being IgM that can take up to several weeks to develop. The other is IgG that can take weeks to months to develop. A person may be dead before that time. A vaccine provides the time needed by causing mild infection with the resulting immune antibodies produced.
> How come a non-vaccinated person who caught smallpox can actually die > from it? Does the immune system fail to start producing the antibodies, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Best regards, > Squark Pete - 17 Apr 2006 22:59 GMT Robert...I always enjoy your informative posts. I was surprised that you didn't mention the term "killed virus" vaccine (that Rusmir referred to as a "disabled" virus in his post above yours), versus a "live virus" vaccine (which can be risky - especially with people who have compromised immune systems). I believe the vast majority of vaccines for the public are "killed" (eg influenza), with exceptions like the "live" anthrax vaccine for our troops (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Could you elaborate a little on how they "kill" or "disable" a virus so it can be used with a high degree of safety in a vaccine. You don't have to get into too many details - just a rough description, would be okay. I have always wondered about this. Thanks...Pete
>> Hello everyone >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> Best regards, >> Squark Robert - 18 Apr 2006 03:12 GMT > Robert...I always enjoy your informative posts. I was surprised that you > didn't mention the term "killed virus" vaccine (that Rusmir referred to as a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "killed" (eg influenza), with exceptions like the "live" anthrax vaccine for > our troops (please correct me if I'm wrong). I am out of the loop on vaccines as I am not directly involved. The anthrax vaccine is not live vaccine. It is parts of bacterial components.
http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/vaccine/facts.asp
> Could you elaborate a little on how they "kill" or "disable" a virus so it > can be used with a high degree of safety in a vaccine. You don't have to > get into too many details - just a rough description, would be okay. I have > always wondered about this. Thanks...Pete If I remember correctly from my college virology course they basically use thermal, chemical or UV inactivation. I plead guilty to answering indirectly as David states. The HIV virus can take up to 6 months until detected and the antibodies produced do not confer immunity so a direct answer to a general question would be misleading I feel
: ) Let me plead guilty again by saying that viral inactivation does not only involve vaccines but blood products also. Heat inactivation is out of the question as it would damage the biological fluid.
Here is another blood product that involves chemical inactivation with solvent detergent. WinRho SDF used in treating a specific type of low platelet count. These are specific antibodies that are treated and used.
http://www.itppeople.com/winrho.htm
Plasma for general use has also been treated in such a manner and is available for transfusion. It is more expensive but is available although not a big hit right now.
Pete - 19 Apr 2006 02:23 GMT >> Robert...I always enjoy your informative posts. I was surprised >> that you didn't mention the term "killed virus" vaccine (that Rusmir [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The anthrax vaccine is not live vaccine. It is parts of bacterial > components. Thanks Robert...I thought I heard something on the news about this a while back (the news could have been wrong or I misinterpreted it). Is it possible that they could have two different vaccines - ie one for the public that wasn't "live", and a 'live"one for our troops in Iraq, who are in harms way, and more likely to get a blast of the sh.t. Maybe I'm all wet :-) ...Pete
> http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/vaccine/facts.asp > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > available for transfusion. It is more expensive but is available > although not a big hit right now. Squark - 17 Apr 2006 21:19 GMT Thx everyone for their answers! These have been helpful.
On that account, I have two more related questions:
1) What do we know about the mechanism of "learning" which allows the immune system to create the right antibodies for the particular kind of virus it is up against? Is it just trial-and-error or some actual "analysis" of the attacking virus is involved? Even if it's the first, what is the mechanism of the feedback? How does the immune system "know" whether the antibody it is trying (if this concept is valid at all) is working?
2) Is it possible to create the antibodies synthetically and inject them into patients? If no, why not? If yes, is this indeed a practiced method of treatment?
Best regards, Squark
Robert - 17 Apr 2006 22:01 GMT > Thx everyone for their answers! These have been helpful. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "know" whether the antibody it is trying (if this concept is valid at > all) is working? Single organisms have been around longer than man has. They have adapted and have learned to evade host immune systems. There is specific and non-specific immunity. What ever the end result is depends on the host and the bug interactions. They don't know the specifics of why or how the immune system produces certain antibodies or cells or cytokines and under what circumstances those might be. If they did we would have an AIDS vaccine by now or a malaria vaccine etc. With influenza we have a virus that changes and thus evades immunity. With parasites you have the worm wraping itself with host tissue and becomes stealth. With TB you have the bug living in a cell, macrophage, actually living and growing in a cell intended to kill bugs. You have bacteria secreting coagluase enzyme that walls off itself from host immune cells. The body has sensors that detect an invader and generate a wide array of cells that go to work. It is broad and as well as specific in the hopes of destroying the bug.
> 2) Is it possible to create the antibodies synthetically and inject > them into patients? If no, why not? If yes, is this indeed a practiced > method of treatment? Yes. It's called passive immunity. The CDC went into the field against Ebola virus with plasma from people who survived the infection. The limiting factor is the amount of antibodies and the quality of protection, both of which are unknown. Immune globulin is injected all the time with hepatitis A exposure and with other virus exposures such as hepatitis B. Synthetic antibodies ie monoclonal antibodies from clonal tissue cells hybridomas are used clinically for testing and used as carriers for drug delivery in cancer. If they had a monoclonal antibody already then that would mean they already had a vaccine as that is what a vaccine is or at least have a neutralizing antibody.
> Best regards, > Squark kuhnfucius - 18 Apr 2006 03:39 GMT "Is it possible to create the antibodies synthetically and inject them into patients? If no, why not? If yes, is this indeed a practiced method of treatment?
Antibodies yes, totally human antibodies very few or currently very expensive. Antibodies are very large molecules. Currently (actually this is a few years out of date) the chimeric (part animal and part human) antibodies are the big thing. I will make a very important suggestion to you. Your best source for the knowledge you seek is yourself. _But_ it has large, but enjoyable learning curve. Get old issues of Scientific American (the really brave, bold and experience may try The Journal Science) read on this issue. Get reference books to look up what you don't understand. E.g. Dictionary of Science and Technology or the latest edition of Cellular and Molecular Immunology, Abbas, Lichtman & Pober. Now these are a bit heavy (but not all that expensive) and perhaps someone can suggest others. Web searchs are sometimes useful, but the best source is your own learning.
>> Thx everyone for their answers! These have been helpful. >> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> Best regards, >> Squark bae@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu - 18 Apr 2006 17:38 GMT >Thx everyone for their answers! These have been helpful. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >"know" whether the antibody it is trying (if this concept is valid at >all) is working? To greatly oversimplify, a mammal's immune systems has a bunch of templates that it 'tries' when it encounters (and 'recognizes') a foreign protein. When one matches, it begins to produce the antibody in massive quantities. You asked earlier why a disease like smallpox can kill, despite the immune sytem producing antibodies against it. The answer is that the disease organism can sometimes do a lot of damage before the immune sytem can mount an effective response.
Again, greatly oversimplifying, the immune system 'remembers' an antigen it has produced antibodies to in the past, so if it encounters the same or a related antigen again, it can ramp up a defense much faster. It also keeps a lower level of these antibodies around for varying periods. In the case of smallpox, this may be lifelong. For other diseases it may be months, years or decades. This is the principle behind vaccination. Modern vaccines often contain only non-infective material, like viral protein coats, that stimulate immunity without any risk of disease. Some vaccines target the protein toxin the disease organism produces, rather than the microbe itself. Diphteria and tetanus vaccines work this way, preventing symptoms while other parts of the immune system tackle the microbes by more generic methods.
There are some very intricate feedback systems that enable the immune system to 'know' that the defense is working.
Biological systems, unlike designed or engineered ones, are ornately complex, because, to use a programmer's metaphor, they grew by accretion, patch on patch, kludge on kludge. There are innumerable special cases, unrelated redundant mechanisms, and just immense quantities of detail and exceptions. Note that autoimmune diseases, where the immune system gets 'confused' and attacks normal body tissues, are very common and include lupus, type I diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis and many others. The immune system can also overreact and do more damage than the invading organism, as in SARS and avian flu.
Nobody can give you a brief summary of how it works that's much more informative than the above. If you are interested, take the suggestion already given to read Scientific American and similar sources. You can also try to find an immunology textbook or popular work that is at a level that suits your interest.
>2) Is it possible to create the antibodies synthetically and inject >them into patients? If no, why not? If yes, is this indeed a practiced >method of treatment? This method has been in use for perhaps 100 years. Until fairly recently, antiserums were produced by vaccinating animals and harvesting antibody-containing serums from their blood. As described to you before, this provides only a passive immunity that lasts at most weeks to months. Immunoglobulins collected from people who have survived some disease are sometimes used in special cases, as with Ebola virus. If you get a dirty wound, you may be given tetanus antitoxin to protect you until your own immune system can mount a defense. This used to be a serum collected from immunized horses, but has no doubt been superseded by a less allergenic method of production.
Squark - 19 Apr 2006 13:28 GMT > To greatly oversimplify, a mammal's immune systems has a bunch of > templates that it 'tries' when it encounters (and 'recognizes') a > foreign protein. When one matches, it begins to produce the antibody > in massive quantities. This sounds as if there is a fixed set of antibodies the organism is pre-programmed to produce and it can only produce one of them. But surely it is not exactly so, i.e. the organism can "develop" new antibodies for new diseases? Probably here you are only talking about response to previously encountered antigens?
> Again, greatly oversimplifying, the immune system 'remembers' an antigen > it has produced antibodies to in the past, so if it encounters the > same or a related antigen again, it can ramp up a defense much faster. This is taking the discussion a bit sideways, but I can't resist asking: do you implying the immune system of other animals works in completely different manner? If so, in which ways?
> There are some very intricate feedback systems that enable the immune > system to 'know' that the defense is working. Can you elaborate on some of those?
> Nobody can give you a brief summary of how it works that's much more > informative than the above. If you are interested, take the suggestion > already given to read Scientific American and similar sources. You > can also try to find an immunology textbook or popular work that is > at a level that suits your interest. I have a background in theoretical physics (quantum physics in particular) and basic knowledge of chemistry and a bit quantum chemistry. However, my knowledge of biology is limitely to a purely popular level. I would be grateful for an advice about which textbooks to read on the subject.
Best regards, Squark
bae@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu - 19 Apr 2006 16:43 GMT >> To greatly oversimplify, a mammal's immune systems has a bunch of >> templates that it 'tries' when it encounters (and 'recognizes') a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >for new diseases? Probably here you are only talking about response to >previously encountered antigens? No. About thirty or forty years ago it was discovered that antibody molecules are an exception to the one-gene-one-protein model current at the time. There's a cut-and-splice mix-and-match process that creates a combinatorial explosion of possible antibodies.
>> Again, greatly oversimplifying, the immune system 'remembers' an antigen >> it has produced antibodies to in the past, so if it encounters the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >different >manner? If so, in which ways? All vertebrates have a generally similar basic immune system, although it has developed differently in different lines. Mammals are very similar, overall, but of course not identical.
I don't know anything about the immune systems of invertebrates. No doubt they are wildly different in different phyla and perhaps different classes, but I would expect to see some common factors with vertebrates in non-vertebrate chordates, and less so in the phyla more closely related to the chordates. Unsurprisingly, a great deal more is known about the immune system in mice, rats, animals of economic value, and humans than any other taxa.
>> There are some very intricate feedback systems that enable the immune >> system to 'know' that the defense is working. > >Can you elaborate on some of those? No. It's too complicated, and I don't have the time or the expertise.
>> Nobody can give you a brief summary of how it works that's much more >> informative than the above. If you are interested, take the suggestion [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >my knowledge of biology is limitely to a purely popular level. I would >be grateful for an advice about which textbooks to read on the subject. Well, one thing about biology that's very different from physics is that it's seldom possible to conclude anything from first principles or mathematical methods. The basic organizing principle is evolution by natural selection, which is as basic as atomic theory is to chemistry, but is more a helpful rule when investigating a system than something manipulable to predict anything in detail. At one time biology was a big museum of unrelated special cases. Now it's a much bigger museum of special cases fairly well organized by common factors and phylogenetic relationships. Systems developed by evolution can be almost fractal in their ornate complexity, kludge upon kludge, patch upon patch, existing components warped into completely different roles, unrelated redundant mechanisms out the wazoo.
If you have a good public library, look for books at the level you want. Move on to a university library if you don't find them. Medical school textbooks will focus on human biology, while zoology books not aimed at pre-meds may give a wider perspective. Textbooks for nurses or laboratory workers will focus on practical aspects of the human immune system in disease. Scientific American is a good source of material at a level for the intelligent, interested person not in a particular field. You've probably seen books of collected articles in various fields. There are probably one or more on immunology.
Immunology is a very hot field, and changes rapidly. AIDS has funneled a lot of research money into it, and the results have been impressive. Immunology is important not just for the issue of coping with new infectious diseases, but with auto-immune diseases, organ transplants, aging and the understanding and treatment of cancer. There's a lot of work being done and textbooks can't be up to date.
David Rind - 17 Apr 2006 23:48 GMT > Hello everyone > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Best regards, > Squark Answers you are getting seem a bit indirect.
Your suggestion about "too late" is correct -- smallpox will kill many people before their immune system is able to produce adequate antibodies.
When confronted with something "new" it generally takes the immune system at least 10 days to make significant quantities of specific antibodies. When confronted with something it has seen before, the immune system can usually make large amounts of antibodies over a day or two.
 Signature David Rind drind@caregroup.harvard.edu
kuhnfucius - 20 Apr 2006 01:20 GMT Also it should be noted that one can not necessarily naturally and effectively produce antibodies to all antigens. It is somewhat dependent upon the major histocompatibility complexes (MHC) gene complex that one inherits or that is currently prevalent in the population. Then there is nature and oral tolerance. Think about all that foriegn protein most of us consumed for dinner this evening. Thanks to the aggregates of lymphoid patches located along the intestines (Peyer's patches) we are not all having acute lower GI emergencies.
>> Hello everyone >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > When confronted with something it has seen before, the immune system can > usually make large amounts of antibodies over a day or two. johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com - 18 Apr 2006 15:19 GMT > Hello everyone > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > antibodies which allow you to cope with smallpox viruses you might > catch later. http://tutorials.naturalhealthperspective.com/history.html "{Allopathy}Edward Jenner (1749-1823) demonstrated that a method of inoculation by vaccination with cowpox would produce protection against smallpox. Inoculation with cowpox was actually French folk medicine which Jenner did not discover, but rather reported upon and promoted. Inoculation was, also, a rather dangerous practice."
But come again, the modern smallpox vaccine is also reported to be rather dangerous. If nothing else a smallpox vaccination can make you sick as a dog, even if it don't out right kill you.
When I was in my early teens, my parents unknowingly put my life into jeopardy by having me vaccinated, the second time, for smallpox just so that I could attend Boy Scout camp for 2 weeks during summer vacation. Boy ... times have changed. Thanks to the Internet, people are a lot more aware of the dangers of vaccination.
Who says so? I do. :)
|
|
|