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Medical Forum / General / General / March 2006

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Keeping mentally and physically active helps prevent Alzheimer's

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HealthInfo - 20 Mar 2006 15:16 GMT
Keeping mentally and physically active when young and middle-aged can
help prevent the brain degeneration associated with Alzheimer's
disease, research suggests.

Jean Marx (2005) Preventing Alzheimer's: A Lifelong Commitment?
Science, 309:864 - 866.

-----------

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luke - 20 Mar 2006 17:02 GMT
please send more information
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 20 Mar 2006 18:04 GMT
The OP wrote: "Keeping mentally and physically active when young and
middle-aged can help prevent the brain degeneration associated with
Alzheimer's disease, research suggests."

Mary responds:I'm always suspicious of claims that wander into the
neighbourhood of the error in logic called "post hoc, ergo, proctor
hoc" - or after this, therefore because of this. Just because one event
follows another, that doesn't mean the first caused the second - most
especially given how poorly and inadequately diagnosed most cases of
dementia (I'm willing to bet money that a huge whack of what gets
called Alzheimer's are actually caused by some other disease process
entirely).

You have to wonder if the physical and mental activity is the cause of
the intact brain into old age, or instead, the result of an intact
brain into old age.

I can certainly see robust physical health and having taking good care
of ones self resulting in fewer cases of dementias due to strokes and
other health complications that impact cognition etc.

However, I'm not convinced the same argument is valid when it comes to
some of the other dementias, such as Alzheimer's. We don't even know
what the trigger is, let alone what we might do to prevent it.

Mary
Evelyn Ruut - 20 Mar 2006 18:33 GMT
> The OP wrote: "Keeping mentally and physically active when young and
> middle-aged can help prevent the brain degeneration associated with
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Mary

Yes, exactly!

My mother in law was very active all her life.   She got it too.   It is too
soon (scientifically) to say what that person said, though it certainly
isn't "bad" to stay mentally or physically active all ones life, doing so in
the belief that it will prevent alzheimers, is not borne out by science.

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Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

June - 20 Mar 2006 18:49 GMT
>> The OP wrote: "Keeping mentally and physically active when young and
>> middle-aged can help prevent the brain degeneration associated with
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> doing so in the belief that it will prevent alzheimers, is not borne out
> by science.

Mom played bridge, rode her bike, took exercise classes and would take walks
outside if the weather is nice.  She was very active and it didn't prevent
dementia.   Wish it were true.............June
Evelyn Ruut - 20 Mar 2006 20:30 GMT
>>> The OP wrote: "Keeping mentally and physically active when young and
>>> middle-aged can help prevent the brain degeneration associated with
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> walks outside if the weather is nice.  She was very active and it didn't
> prevent dementia.   Wish it were true.............June

Yes.   People seem to imagine that if the eat just right and live just right
that nothing will prevent them getting an illness like this, or dying too
soon, or whatever.....  The truth is that we really don't know.

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Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Tumbleweed - 21 Mar 2006 20:41 GMT
> Yes.   People seem to imagine that if the eat just right and live just
> right that nothing will prevent them getting an illness like this, or
> dying too soon, or whatever.....  The truth is that we really don't know.

reminds me of Woody Allen, something like "some people plan to achieve
immortality through their works, some through their children, I'd like to do
it by not dying" :-)

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Tumbleweed

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Evelyn Ruut - 21 Mar 2006 23:05 GMT
>> Yes.   People seem to imagine that if the eat just right and live just
>> right that nothing will prevent them getting an illness like this, or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> immortality through their works, some through their children, I'd like to
> do it by not dying" :-)

I don't much care for Woody Allen, but he has said some very funny things.
Here's another one.
"I don't mind dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens"

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Best Regards,

Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

Tumbleweed - 21 Mar 2006 23:30 GMT
>>> Yes.   People seem to imagine that if the eat just right and live just
>>> right that nothing will prevent them getting an illness like this, or
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Here's another one.
> "I don't mind dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens"

How about "I was expelled from college for cheating"...............

...............

...............

.................

...............

...............

.................

"with the principals wife"

:-)

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Tumbleweed

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A R Pickett - 21 Mar 2006 13:03 GMT
Mary wrote in part - > You have to wonder if the physical and mental
activity is the cause of
> the intact brain into old age, or instead, the result of an intact
> brain into old age.
>
> I can certainly see robust physical health and having taking good care
> of ones self resulting in fewer cases of dementias due to strokes and
> other health complications that impact cognition etc.

I recall a few years ago there was a study of a group of nuns, many of them
quite elderly and in good physical health.  If I remember correctly there
was a statistically significant smaller number of that community suffering
from dementia of all sorts, including AZ

Reading this thread I'm wondering -

Was the study of the nuns and the encouraging report flawed in some way or
misunderstood by the media?

Is there later follow up that hasn't been published?

I certainly would agree with your comments - I know of several people who
were quite active, busy, and creative who now are AZ patients - one woman
was the bright, talented, funny leader of the choir and music department at
a small church where I used to worship.

My dad falls into the category of those who never paid much attention to the
importance of physical exercise and activity, but there's no way to know if
his dementia is related to that, since there is no way to reverse the tape
of his life story, make him physically active, and see how that gentlemen
fares in his late 80's and early 90's.

Not challenging anything anyone has said - just curious.

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A R Pickett aka Woodstock

"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"
Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author

Read my book reviews at:
http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html

Tumbleweed - 21 Mar 2006 20:47 GMT
> Mary wrote in part - > You have to wonder if the physical and mental
> activity is the cause of
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Is there later follow up that hasn't been published?

Could be diet, could be that nuns that started to get 'cranky' leave or are
forced to leave before they get Az proper, could be a self-selected study
(would the study have been published if it didnt show such a significance?),
could be pure chance*.

(*Most scientific studies run at a 95% confidence level, which means that
there is a 95% confidence that the results aren't due to chance. Or to put
it another way, 1 in 20 studies are pure luck and dont indicate anything,
hence the importance to science of repeating results.

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Tumbleweed - 21 Mar 2006 20:39 GMT
> Keeping mentally and physically active when young and middle-aged can
> help prevent the brain degeneration associated with Alzheimer's
> disease, research suggests.
>
> Jean Marx (2005) Preventing Alzheimer's: A Lifelong Commitment?
> Science, 309:864 - 866.

There are many studies that show that it makes no difference.

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Alan Meyer - 21 Mar 2006 21:48 GMT
There are a number of things involved in the issues of mental and
physical activity.

Taking mental first, the famous nun's study was a study of women
in a convent who had been required as part of their duties at the
convent to keep diaries.  The researchers who studied the nuns
read the diaries and rated each one for intellectual
sophistication.  They found, to their surprise, that the diaries
showing more sophistication belonged to women who exhibited fewer
behavioral symptoms of Alzheimers than women of the same age who
had simpler diaries.

I heard an interview with Trey Sunderland, an Alzheimer's
researcher at NIH in which he discussed this study.  He theorized
that intellectual sophistication has no effect on the development
of beta-amyloid plaques or neurofibrillary tangles - the obvious
physiological changes in the brain associated with Alzheimer's,
but _would_ affect people's behavioral responses to brain damage.
He thought that a person with six ways of thinking about
something could lose one or two and compensate very well.  But a
person with only one or two ways of thinking about something
could not compensate for similar losses.  Both people might have
the same amount of brain damage, but one appears demented and one
does not.

So his theory was that mental activity has no physiological
protective effect, but does affect one's ability to battle the
mental losses caused by the disease.

According to Sunderland, we know from autopsies of the nuns that
some women who appeared mentally normal when they died were found
to have had serious Alzheimer's type brain damage when autopsied
after death.  This is a piece of evidence for his view.

Now as to the theory of physical exercise, as I understand it, it
is not just any physical activity that provides protection, but
cardio-vascular activity.  Gardening, milking cows, maybe even
weight-lifting, wouldn't help, or wouldn't help much.  But
running, bicycling, or other exercise that got the heart rate up
for significant periods might very well help.

This makes a lot of sense if there is any cardio-vascular
component to Alzheimer's Disease.  Whether there is or not is
beyond my competence to say, however we do know (don't we?) that
people who have had small strokes and/or high blood pressure,
both cardio-vascular injuries or diseases, have a higher
incidence of Alzheimer's.

Finally, it is not valid reasoning to look at a person and say,
"He or she was active and intelligent all his life and still got
Alzheimer's, therefore the theory that mental and physical
exercise is protective can't be right."

Theories about the protective effect of Alzheimer's are based on
statistical studies, not on individual cases.  Any individual
might fall anywhere on the exercise spectrum and still get AD.
But it might still very well be the case that _on average_ people
with more activity get less AD.

Even in individual cases, a highly active person who still got AD
might very well have gotten it sooner had he not been active.

As for me, I work out on those damn exercise machines and strain
my brain to learn new things as best I can.  I don't know if it
will help.  Maybe it won't.  But I'm playing the odds.

   Alan
Alan Meyer - 21 Mar 2006 22:15 GMT
> ... They found, to their surprise, that the diaries
> showing more sophistication belonged to women who exhibited fewer
> behavioral symptoms of Alzheimers than women of the same age who
> had simpler diaries. ...

Maybe a little clarification is in order here.

Obviously, Alzheimer's sufferers will have less sophisticated
diaries than people without the disease.  But the researchers
were able to look back at diary entries made when the women
were in their 20's and 30's, long before AD would have played
any role.  They found that women exhibiting more intellectual
sophistication at a young age, long before Alzheimer's, turned
out to have less demented behavior than the sisters who
had very simple diaries with few complicated thoughts at that
same age.

    Alan
Tumbleweed - 21 Mar 2006 23:30 GMT
>> ... They found, to their surprise, that the diaries
>> showing more sophistication belonged to women who exhibited fewer
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>     Alan

adding to your theory, it may also be that people who happen to be more
intelligent can therefore lose more before they get to a demented level of
behaviour than someone who is less intelligent.  Eg IQ (for want of a better
measure) score 130, subtract 40, result 90, seemingly around average. Score
90, subtract 40, result 50, well below average.

OTOH, when I observe my father, he is perfectly intelligent **within the
limitations* of someone who has lost a huge amount of his memory, and who
cannot retain any new memories at all. So whilst one might refer to his
behaviour as 'demented' I dont think thats an accurate description. He is
behaving rationally as far as the very limited amount of knowledge he has.
So to go back to your '6 ways of thinking' analogy, if you have 6 ways of
thinking , but no memories (information) on which to draw to use those ways
of thinking, it wont help you, maybe its just down to memory capacity, or
more accuartely how resilient your memory store is, how badly damaged can it
be before the damage is noticed? That may be , perhaps is more likely to be,
associated with intelligence, but its not the same thing.

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Alan Meyer - 22 Mar 2006 02:28 GMT
...
> So to go back to your '6 ways of thinking' analogy, if you have 6 ways of
> thinking , but no memories (information) on which to draw to use those ways
> of thinking, it wont help you, maybe its just down to memory capacity, or
> more accuartely how resilient your memory store is, how badly damaged can it
> be before the damage is noticed? That may be , perhaps is more likely to be,
> associated with intelligence, but its not the same thing.

I'm sure that's right.

Some people can cope far longer than others and keep
functioning in spite more brain damage.  But eventually they
too will succomb.  A strong person can take more hits
than a weak one - whether we talk about mental or physical
strength.  But nobody can take more and harder hits forever.

   Alan
Caz - 22 Mar 2006 06:00 GMT
<snip>
> This makes a lot of sense if there is any cardio-vascular
> component to Alzheimer's Disease.  Whether there is or not is
> beyond my competence to say, however we do know (don't we?) that
> people who have had small strokes and/or high blood pressure,
> both cardio-vascular injuries or diseases, have a higher
> incidence of Alzheimer's.

<snip>
I wasn't aware of any such increased incidence of Alzheimer's in the
presence of cardiovascular injuries or diseases. I'm familiar with
multi-infarct dementia caused by multiple small strokes. Do you have a
source of reference for that?

Great post!

Caz
Robert W. McAdams - 22 Mar 2006 06:46 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Caz

See, for example, "15-year longitudinal study of blood pressure and
dementia" in Lancet 1996; 347:1141-45.  The study found that, while
multi-infarct dementia was correlated with hypertension at the time of
the onset of the MID, Alzheimer's disease was correlated with
hypertension about a decade prior to the onset of the AD.

Bob
Caz - 22 Mar 2006 15:36 GMT
> > <snip>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Bob

But isn't this just asserting a coexistence between AD and hypertension (and
coexistence between other forms of dementia such as DLB and cardiovascular
disease, and between Parkinson's and AD, etc) ... not that people who suffer
from cardiovascular disease "have a higher incidence of Alzheimer's" as
stated in Alan's post?

Caz
Robert W. McAdams - 22 Mar 2006 17:17 GMT
>>><snip>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Caz

Let me quote from the study:

"Participants who developed dementia at age 79-85 had higher systolic
blood pressure at age 70 (mean 178 vs 164 mm Hg, p=0.034) and higher
diastolic blood pressure at ages 70 (101 vs 92, p=0.004) and 75 (97 vs
90, p=0.022) than those who did not develop dementia.  For subtypes of
dementia, higher diastolic blood pressure was recorded at age 70 (101,
p=0.019) for those developing Alzheimer's disease and at age 75 (101,
p=0.015) for those developing vascular dementia than for those who did
not develop dementia.  Participants with white-matter lesions on
computed tomography at age 85 had higher blood pressure at age 70 than
those without such lesions.  Blood pressure declined in the years before
dementia onset and was then similar to or lower than that in
non-demented individuals."

It adds that:

"Previously increased blood pressure may increase the risk for dementia
by inducing small-vessel disease and white-matter lesions.  To what
extent the decline in blood pressure before dementia onset is a
consequence or a cause of the brain disease remains to be elucidated."

Bob
Alan Meyer - 22 Mar 2006 20:49 GMT
I haven't tried to review the literature on this myself.  I
was just recalling some previous material I had read.

As I understand the material that Robert was quoting,
a statistical association has been found between Alzheimer's
Disease and a prior history of hypertension.  But no one
yet knows what, if any, causal links exist between them.

Similarly, I have read (but I can't recall where) that there
is a statistical association between AD and prior transient
ischemic attacks (TIAs, mini-strokes - brief interruptions of
blood flow to the brain.)  And also as I recall, hypertension
is common among people who experience TIAs or
strokes.

Until the scientists find actual causal links between
these things, we can't say much about them except that
they may be early warning signs.   AD may be one more
good reason among a number of others to get your blood
pressure down if it is high.

As with so much in contemporary medicine, we have only
partial knowledge.  We have statistical associations between
events, but only have conjectures about the nature of the
relationships.

I figure a lot of preventive medicine is just playing the odds.
Cardio-vascular exercise isn't guaranteed to protect you
from anything, not heart disease, not AD.  But it appears
to improve your odds.

I figure when you're gambling with your life and your sanity,
it's a good idea to take every opportunity to improve your
odds.

   Alan
Caz - 23 Mar 2006 00:40 GMT
> >>><snip>
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> Bob

Bob, I don't wish to be pedantic here, but to me they are referring to
general dementia, not specifically the organic brain disease Alzheimer's.

"For subtypes of
> dementia, higher diastolic blood pressure was recorded at age 70 (101,
> p=0.019) for those developing Alzheimer's disease and at age 75 (101,
> p=0.015) for those developing vascular dementia than for those who did
> not develop dementia."

As you are aware, one in 4 people over the age of 80 develop dementia, and
55% of those with dementia have AD (Atchley & Barusch, 2004). Hypertension
is one of the most common ailments of people over 65, so it's safe to assume
that a very high proportion of people with dementia are elderly, and many
will probably have hypertension, arthritis, etc. To me, this study doesn't
prove that cardiovascular disease is specifically a precursor to
*Alzheimer's Disease*.

But it's been a good discussion. Thanks.

Caz
Robert W. McAdams - 23 Mar 2006 02:43 GMT
>>>>><snip>
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
>
> Caz

What was found in the study was that:

1) The patients who ultimately developed dementia (of either kind) had,
at age 70, a mean systolic blood pressure that was elevated by about 15
mm Hg and a mean diastolic pressure that was elevated by about 10 mm Hg
above the levels of those patients who ultimately did not develop dementia.

2) At age 75, the mean systolic and diastolic blood pressure levels of
the patients who ultimately developed vascular dementia were elevated
even more above those of the patients who ultimately did not develop
dementia than they had been when both sets of patients were 70.

3) At age 75, the mean systolic and diastolic blood pressure levels of
the patients who ultimately developed Alzheimer's disease had fallen
dramatically so that they were only slightly above those of the patients
who ultimately did not develop dementia.

4) At age 80 and 85, the patients who developed vascular dementia still
had mean systolic and diastolic blood pressure levels that were somewhat
elevated above those of the non-demented patients.

5) At age 80 and 85, the patients who developed Alzheimer's disease had
a mean systolic blood pressure that was significantly below and a mean
diastolic blood pressure that was slightly below those of the
non-demented patients.

It is interesting to note that even the patients who did not develop
dementia had mean systolic and diastolic blood pressure levels at age 70
that would be classified as hypertension (i.e., 164/92).  But the
patients who developed dementia had systolic and diastolic blood prssure
levels that were significantly higher (i.e., 178/101).

Bob
Caz - 23 Mar 2006 07:22 GMT
<snip>
> 5) At age 80 and 85, the patients who developed Alzheimer's disease had
> a mean systolic blood pressure that was significantly below and a mean
> diastolic blood pressure that was slightly below those of the
> non-demented patients.
> >
> Bob

I find the above paragraph particularly interesting. Thanks Bob.

Caz
Bill IL - 23 Mar 2006 15:42 GMT
>> 5) At age 80 and 85, the patients who developed Alzheimer's disease had
>> a mean systolic blood pressure that was significantly below and a mean
>> diastolic blood pressure that was slightly below those of the
>> non-demented patients.
>> Bob

>I find the above paragraph particularly interesting. Thanks Bob.
>Caz

Could you (anyone) spell out the significance?  I'm just following
along ... above average hypertension earlier ... systolic
significantly below non-demented later ... what would that maybe
indicate?

Bill
Caz - 24 Mar 2006 05:23 GMT
> >> 5) At age 80 and 85, the patients who developed Alzheimer's disease had
> >> a mean systolic blood pressure that was significantly below and a mean
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Bill

I'm not sure, but I wondered if it was due to lowered stress levels once AD
had taken hold. It would be interesting to know *at what stage of AD* their
blood pressure lowered. At the stage where they no longer suffered anxiety
or stress? Just a thought.

Caz
beni - 25 Mar 2006 15:28 GMT
> I'm not sure, but I wondered if it was due to lowered stress levels once AD
> had taken hold. It would be interesting to know *at what stage of AD* their
> blood pressure lowered. At the stage where they no longer suffered anxiety
> or stress? Just a thought.
>
> Caz
Since no one knows the exact cause of AZ or Dementia I think it is best
to add a lot of anti-oxidants to the daily regime, especially vit
C,ALA, curcumine etc..
beni.
chatw@my-deja.com - 23 Mar 2006 19:11 GMT
Several studies on lifestyle, weight and health AD predictors out
recently:

Fans of daytime TV talkies and soaps more likely to develope AD.

Also those who are heavier in their early 40's.

and

When older people experience a  gradual, unexplained weight loss.

----------------------------------------
FWIW:

My brother was a physically and mentally healthy and active go-go type
guy who started showing symptoms in his early-mid 50's. The diagnosis
of AD still sticks, after all the testing,  and he is on the latest
medications - but seems to be slowly declining. He pretty much follows
all the recommended guidelines and exercises, & does crosswords. He
also takes CoQ10,  though his family/doctors apparently still won't
consider simply adding extra tumeric or circumin supplements, though.

It makes me think there can be an environmental influence in this, as
he spent a little time around some industrial environments and
chemicals.

The only other blip on the screen that I can think of is that a year or
two before he had symptoms, he went to the hospital with a very high
fever. I don't know if the high fever was ever fully explained.

I've heard of dramatic headaches or circulation problems preceding some
forms of dementia - but has anyone heard of fevers?
A R Pickett - 22 Mar 2006 12:40 GMT
Alan wrote in part - > So his theory was that mental activity has no
physiological
> protective effect, but does affect one's ability to battle the
> mental losses caused by the disease.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to have had serious Alzheimer's type brain damage when autopsied
> after death.  This is a piece of evidence for his view.

Thanks, Alan

Your comments fill in the gaps in my understanding of this study (of the
community of nuns)
Signature

A R Pickett aka Woodstock

"Sometimes the facts threaten the truth"

Amos Oz, prize winning Israeli author

Read my book reviews at:
http://www.booksnbytes.com/reviews/_idx_ws_all_byauth.html

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