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Medical Forum / General / General / February 2006

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Civil Rights

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Twittering One - 26 Dec 2005 17:58 GMT
"Chief Justice Earl Warren argued that separating school children
on the
basis of race ~

'generates a feeling of inferiority as to their status in
the community that may affect their hearts
and minds in a way unlikely
to ever be undone.'"
~ The Center for History & New Media

http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/122/hill/hillframe.htm

"So does ignoring abuse."
~ Twittering

~ * ~
Blog, I'll warrant ye, or dog? Who knows. Pass the grog!
But if ye see me lost pup, please bring that scurvy dog home!
I got Leon a brand-new bone, with a chest full a' booty.
_________________
http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo
Twittering One - 26 Dec 2005 18:11 GMT
NYU Medical Center ~

You abused my legal rights

My name is Virginia H. Hooper.
I live in New York City.

_____

Cc: [Former!] Robert Cancro, MD, Chair, Psychiatry Department, New York
University Medical Center; Mark Brady, Chief Compliance Officer, New
York University Medical Center

Medical Patient Privacy Issue
July 8, 2004

Dear Dr. Lenard Adler, MD:
    I write you now under strictest confidence, which the NYU Medical
Center community and Federal government guarantee me.
    Today, July 8, 2004, I contacted the NYU Ethics Consultation
Service regarding my concerns that my medical confidentiality has been
violated; Esther Chanchkes, Ph.D., Social Work Department, advised me
to contact the relevant treating department directly, as well as the
patient representative department.
    Because my issue concerns the NYU Adult ADHD center, you appear to
be the relevant contact person, as you are Director.  If this is
incorrect, please advise me to the appropriate department within the
NYU Medical Center.
    I am a female adult, with a diagnosis of adult ADHD.  In September
1999, I visited the NYU adult ADHD service, then located at the
Hospital of Joint Diseases.  I received excellent care from Dr. Matthew
B. Smith.  I still see Dr. Smith in his private practice, and I have
always been exceptionally pleased with his medical care, sensitivity,
and expertise; I intend to continue seeing Dr. Smith in the future, as
he provides excellent care.
    However, I am contacting you now regarding a different healthcare
provider.  In April 2002, for psychotherapy, I began seeing a
psychologist in your department.  Although I have seen her in her
private practice office, rather than the NYU offices, she gave me the
standard "NYU School of Medicine NOTICE OF PRIVACY PRACTICES
ACKNOWLEDGMENT" form from the Neurology ADHD Program, 530 First Avenue,
Suite 5A, New York, NY.
    Therefore, I believe that this is an NYU Medical Center issue, and
I am pursuing this issue through appropriate NYU Medical Center
channels, as well as appropriate Federal channels.  Further, all
written correspondence with the treating psychologist has been within
the domain of the NYU Medical School e-mail server.
    I have serious concerns that my private medical information --
regarding sensitive material I divulged in psychotherapy with my
psychologist, as well as my ADHD diagnosis -- has been divulged and my
privacy has been violated.  As of May 2004, for a variety of reasons, I
have formally terminated treatment with the treating psychologist.
    I am also an official volunteer member of the NYU Medical Center
community, active since spring 2003.  In my formal professional career,
I earn my living as a medical writer.  Accordingly, as a volunteer, I
work for the NYU Child Study Center, contributing articles for the
Aboutourkids.org website. I enjoy this work immensely, and I have
immense respect for all professionals in that department.
    From the beginning, in 2003, I reported to Robin F. Goodman,
Ph.D., and Anita Gurian, Ph.D.; since the departure of Dr. Goodman from
the Child Study Center, in early 2004, I have reported directly to Dr.
Gurian.  It has been a great pleasure working with both, and I have no
complaints or concerns about either Dr. Goodman or Dr. Gurian.
    I do, however, have serious concerns that my private medical
information -- regarding material I divulged in psychotherapy with my
psychologist -- has been passed along to Dr. Goodman and Dr. Gurian.
If this has occurred, I consider this a serious breach of my medical
privacy, as protected by Federal guidelines.
    I consider my mental health information an extremely personal
issue, which I guard due to professional concerns.  Public knowledge of
an ADHD diagnosis can potentially impact my professional career in many
adverse ways, affecting my earning ability and credibility as
professional.  I do not make this information public, nor will I in the
future.
    My work for the NYU Child Study Center, while performed on a
voluntary basis, is an important aspect of my professional career as a
medical writer.  This Volunteer Service commitment is list on my
CV/resume;  I refer potential clients/employers to the website to
review my work;  and if appropriate, I utilize Dr. Goodman and Dr.
Gurian as professional references.
    Further, because I work in the medical communications industry
(eg, continuing medical education, pharmaceutical advertising, medical
journalism, etc.), it is not uncommon for members of the NYU medical
community to overlap with my professional contacts in the medical
communications industry.  It is standard procedure for me to consult
regularly with medical opinion leaders in diverse therapeutic areas.
Therefore, it is crucial that my medical privacy be maintained within
the NYU volunteer community.
    Understandably, it is imperative -- and within my rights -- that
the Child Study Center community regard me in the same untarnished
light as my formal professional colleagues;  additionally, it is my
Federal right that my medical mental health information remain
unavailable to both communities.
    It is my understanding that, despite the fact that I am an
official NYU Medical Center volunteer, my private medical information
-- divulged in psychotherapy -- should remain private, should remain
unavailable to my reporting chain of command within the NYU Medical
Center volunteer structure.
    I understand that I am protected, without fear of reprisal or
retribution, to pursue this issue for clarification, under NYU Medical
Center compliance guidelines, as well as Federal privacy protections
for medical information.  It is also my understanding that my decision
to clarify this issue will not further affect my medical privacy or
affect my standing as an official NYU Medical School volunteer.
    Once again, I remind you that the NYU Ethics Consultation Service
(212.263.5018) directed to the department head of the relevant
department, which in this case, appears to be you, Dr. Adler.  If this
referral is incorrect, I appreciate your guidance and attention in
directing me to the appropriate venue within the NYU Medical Center.
Thank you for your respected attention and assistance.
    Please note that I am also copying this correspondence to Robert
Cancro, Psychiatry, Chairman, and Mark S. Brody, CHIEF COMPLIANCE
OFFICER, NYU.

Sincerely,
Virginia Hooper
O'Hush - 26 Dec 2005 20:16 GMT
> NYU Medical Center ~
>
> You abused my legal rights

(snip)

> Sincerely,
> Virginia Hooper

Virginia, patients have rights *and* responsibilities.  I believe you
have not complied with the medical regimens offered by at least two
doctors you say you like and respect, Drs. Pfeffer and Seiden.  Suppose
you just take the meds they recommend for three months?  Isn't it worth
a try before you kill yourself?  Aren't all the docs you visit reaching
the same conclusion?  Aren't they all recommending a trial of
antipsychotic medication?  Isn't that why you jump from doc to doc?
Why not just give it a try?

PATIENT RESPONSIBILITIES

Patients have the responsibility to provide accurate and complete
information about current and past illnesses, medications, and other
matters pertaining to their health.

Patients have the responsibility to follow the treatment plan
recommended by their practitioner or express concerns regarding their
ability to comply.

Patients are responsible for their actions if they refuse treatment or
do not follow the practitioner's instructions.

Patients have the responsibility to arrive as scheduled for
appointments and to cancel in advance appointments they cannot keep.

Patients have the responsibility to become informed of the scope of
basic services offered, the costs, and the necessity for medical
insurance and to actively seek clarification of any aspect of
participation in Student Health Service programs and services
(including cost) that is not understood.

You have the responsibility to help your health care provider assess
your needs with respect to pain and to work with your health care
provider to develop a pain management plan.

Patients are responsible for their actions if they refuse treatment or
do not follow the practitioner's instructions.

PATIENT RIGHTS

Patients have the right to be treated with consideration, respect, and
dignity.

Patients have the right to have consideration shown to the
psychosocial, spiritual, and cultural variables that influence their
perception to illness.

Patients have the right to expect the Student Health Service staff,
within the capacity, stated mission, and applicable law and regulation,
will provide a reasonable response to patients request for service.

Patients have the right to privacy during medical care and
confidentiality of communications and records pertaining to their care.

Patients have the right to approve or refuse the release of information
from their medical record except when release is required by law and to
have access to the information contained in the record within the
limits of the law.

Patients have the right to information regarding diagnosis, evaluation,
treatment, costs, and prognosis to enable them to participate in
decision-making regarding care, including the right to assistance in
preparing an advance directive. When it is medically inadvisable to
give such information to a patient, the information is provided to a
person designated by the patient or to a legally authorized person.

Patients have the right to be advised of any human experimentation or
other research affecting their care and to refuse to participate in
such research programs.

Patients have the right to request a health care provider of their
choice or to change their health care provider as well as to request a
second opinion or referral.

Patients have the right to appropriate assessment and management of
pain.
Twittering One - 26 Dec 2005 21:16 GMT
"I believe you have not complied with the medical regimens
offered by at least two
doctors you say you like and respect,
Drs. Pfeffer and Seiden."
~ OHush

I never said I liked either one of them.
Phil Scott - 27 Dec 2005 05:04 GMT
> "I believe you have not complied with the medical regimens
> offered by at least two
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I never said I liked either one of them.

I think your brain is simply very active.

try this   'notice the edges of various nearby objects... the
edges only...then notice the empty space between the objects..
then later include the empty space between yourself and these
objects'

Do this for a few seconds at a time throughout the
day...longer if it starts to be enjoyable or feel good.

To escalate the approach just expand the space ..

just notice these empty spaces..you dont have to do anything
else.

This drill breaks the habit of fixating on objects, including
mental objects then reacting compulsively to them.   Peace
tends to ensue after a few days as you get good at doing the
drill.

Let me know how it goes if you like.

Phil Scott
O'Hush - 27 Dec 2005 15:46 GMT
> "I believe you have not complied with the medical regimens
> offered by at least two
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I never said I liked either one of them.

Okay, fine.  I think I recall you telling me you liked one of them in
an e-mail -- said she was hot :)  So anyway, isn't each of your parade
of psychiatrists in turn recommending a trial of antipsychotic meds,
and when you refuse, aren't they refusing to treat you further?  From
where I sit it seems that you then find a new psychiatrist who after a
few weeks recommends antipsychotic meds and refuses to prescribe your
amphetamines unless you comply, and you suddenly think it's time for
you to find a new shrink.  You typically accuse them of abandoning you
and wail about it on usenet for weeks.  Can every single psychiatrist
you see be wrong?  And all of your friends and family?  Why not just
try it for a few months?
Twittering One - 27 Dec 2005 23:49 GMT
Why not just
try it for a few months?
~ O Hush

Because you do not treat abuse with antipsychotics.

You take legal action,
to ensure abuse does not continue,
and harm both yourself and other vulnerable people
in the future.

And you prosecute anyone who breaks the law,
eg, Medical Fraud, misconduct, etc.

Antipsychotics do not solve the problem.

I have ADHD, and for the rest of my life,
I will need a prescribing psychiatrist for ADHD medication.

That is a fact.

I was the victim of abuse.
That is a fact.

Abuse is illegal.
That is a fact.

Prosecuting abuse is difficult.
That is a fact.

I am seeking support to make sure that happens.

I am seeking an ADHD doctor,
because I don't have one.

Fraudulent medical records and a therapist rubbing his dick in therapy
are unaccepatable.

Pschologically abusing a patient is unacceptable.

Those are facts.

NYU Medical Center endangered my life.
That is a fact.

I have reported these facts.

Now I seek to make sure I receive financial damages
for what these abuses took away from my life.

That is is a fact.

My past impacts my present life.
That is a fact.

I can't wait until my brain heals to seek financial damages,
because I ran out of money.

The abusers took my money.

I want them prosecuted for abuse.

My name is Virginia Hooper.
I live in New York City.
Twittering One - 27 Dec 2005 23:59 GMT
I want to make sure the law grants severely traumatized
adults the same legal protection as a child.

I think it should be mandatory for a medical professional
to report abuse, in the same way, in NY State,
a professional must report suspected abuse of a child.

Because once an individual is abused,
a cycle begins,
and that person is even more vulnerable for subsequent abuse.

GET YOUR OWN DAMN SELF OUT OF IT

is not effecive therapy.

Trust me ~
Someone said that to me, and I almost died.

2 years later,
I am losing my home.

I call that a net loss,
not a gain.

Although the experience was very gross.
O'Hush - 29 Dec 2005 04:04 GMT
> Why not just
> try it for a few months?
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> My name is Virginia Hooper.
> I live in New York City.

Perhaps the ideas you've expressed here above are a result of
disordered thinking.  Prove me wrong -- try the antipsychotics for a
few months.  Why not?

--Patti
Twittering One - 29 Dec 2005 16:03 GMT
Perhaps the ideas you've expressed here above are a result of
disordered thinking.  Prove me wrong -- try the antipsychotics for a
few months.  Why not?

--Patti

Try rat poison,
Why not?
O'Hush - 29 Dec 2005 17:41 GMT
> Perhaps the ideas you've expressed here above are a result of
> disordered thinking.  Prove me wrong -- try the antipsychotics for a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Try rat poison,
> Why not?

Rat poison = antipsychotic meds?  Do you think every psychiatrist in
NYC is involved in a conspiracy to injure you?  IMO that sounds kind of
like a delusion.  I have a bipolar friend on one of the newer
antipsychotics who has virtually no side-effects aside from perhaps a
very fine tremor in her hands.  She takes it for rather benign
hallucinations including smelling smoke and seeing polite strangers in
her yard, and sometimes small animals scurrying about in her periphery.

Your condition has had you housebound for close to two years now and
you can't work.  How many psychiatrists have refused to treat you
further unless you take the antipsychotic meds?  The logical next step
would be to try them.  If you do, probably the worst thing that could
happen is that they could be wrong and the meds won't help you.  I
suppose you could develop side-effects, but they would resolve on
stopping the meds and would be uncommon on the new meds anyway.

I think it's the one thing you haven't tried.

--Patti
Twittering One - 29 Dec 2005 18:59 GMT
"Rat poison = antipsychotic meds?

Do you think every psychiatrist in
NYC is involved in a conspiracy to injure you?
IMO that sounds kind of
like a delusion."
~ O Hush

"As my former psychologist used to say ~
Sometimes Paranoia is merely based on the facts
Of REALITY."
~ Twittering
Twittering One - 29 Dec 2005 19:03 GMT
"O, c'est Cabal ~ Those shrunken turds
Are right norming the means
And being average still ~ !

Just ask Fob."
~ Fobby

"Heck, yeah ~ !
Fob knows everything."
~ Twittering
Twittering One - 29 Dec 2005 19:09 GMT
"I have a bipolar friend on one of the newer
antipsychotics who has virtually no side-effects
Aside from perhaps a very fine tremor
In her hands."
~ O Hush

"Does she weight 300 pounds,
Experience bone loss,
And recently developed diabetes?"
~ Twittering

"She takes it for rather benign hallucinations
Including smelling smoke
And seeing polite strangers in her yard,
And sometimes small animals
Scurrying about in her periphery."
~ O Hush

"O, yes, I do know
Mortifieddotcom. How is she ~ ?"
~ Twittering

"I suppose you could develop side-effects,
But they would resolve
On stopping the meds
And would be uncommon on the new meds anyway.

I think it's the one thing you haven't tried."
~ Patti

"My problems are legal,
Not halucinagenic."
~ Twittering
O'Hush - 30 Dec 2005 01:22 GMT
> "I have a bipolar friend on one of the newer
> antipsychotics who has virtually no side-effects
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> And recently developed diabetes?"
> ~ Twittering

No.  She's healthy.  She's been on the meds for 6 years.

> "She takes it for rather benign hallucinations
> Including smelling smoke
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Not halucinagenic."
> ~ Twittering

How can you be sure?
Pies de Arcilla - 30 Dec 2005 01:21 GMT
> Perhaps the ideas you've expressed here above are a result of
> disordered thinking.  Prove me wrong -- try the antipsychotics for a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Try rat poison,
> Why not?

Warfarin, rat poison, _is_ a medication. It's called Coumadin, and it
can save your life if you need it.

If nothing else works, try praying to God to tell you what to do, who
to trust.

Even if everybody is evil, the drugs still work. They're dangerous but
they do work. God loves you and you can trust the world, its solidity,
even if people are false. They will help you, not because they care
about you, but according to God's plan.
Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 01:35 GMT
Warfarin, rat poison, _is_ a medication. It's called Coumadin, and it
can save your life if you need it.

If nothing else works, try praying to God to tell you what to do, who
to trust.

Even if everybody is evil, the drugs still work. They're dangerous but
they do work. God loves you and you can trust the world, its solidity,
even if people are false. They will help you, not because they care
about you, but according to God's plan.

teRATigen

bullshit
Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 01:37 GMT
Kent Wills - 29 Dec 2005 04:22 GMT
>Why not just
>try it for a few months?
>~ O Hush
>
>Because you do not treat abuse with antipsychotics.

    True.  You treat the victim with counseling.

>You take legal action,
>to ensure abuse does not continue,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>And you prosecute anyone who breaks the law,
>eg, Medical Fraud, misconduct, etc.

    True.

>Antipsychotics do not solve the problem.
>
>I have ADHD, and for the rest of my life,
>I will need a prescribing psychiatrist for ADHD medication.

    Most people outgrow ADHD during puberty.  You may be one of
those who has not.

>That is a fact.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Prosecuting abuse is difficult.
>That is a fact.

    It's not difficult if there is evidence, and the victim is
willing to testify.

>I am seeking support to make sure that happens.
>
>I am seeking an ADHD doctor,
>because I don't have one.

    Does one need a specialist for ADHD?  I honestly don't know.

>Fraudulent medical records and a therapist rubbing his dick in therapy
>are unaccepatable.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>I have reported these facts.

    You've reported few facts.  For example, there is nothing
available to us that supports your claim that NYU Medical Center
endangered your life.
    Perhaps you offered that evidence in an earlier post, and I
didn't read it.

>Now I seek to make sure I receive financial damages
>for what these abuses took away from my life.
>
>That is is a fact.

    What, exactly, did they take from you?

>My past impacts my present life.
>That is a fact.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>I want them prosecuted for abuse.

    If they took your money, they should be prosecuted for theft.

>My name is Virginia Hooper.
>I live in New York City.
Signature

Kent
No todos los que ven tus obras ven tus virtudes.

Twittering One - 29 Dec 2005 16:09 GMT
Kent,
Will you accompany me to lawyer's office
and advocate for me?

Because I am willing to testify,
but I have read that any victim should have a friend
or relative present, for many reasons.

I am not a lawyer.
I am a medical writer.
Kent Wills - 29 Dec 2005 23:12 GMT
>Kent,
>Will you accompany me to lawyer's office
>and advocate for me?

    We live in different states, so that would prove difficult at
best.

>Because I am willing to testify,
>but I have read that any victim should have a friend
>or relative present, for many reasons.

    While speaking with your lawyer?  While I don't see how it
could hurt, I don't see it being of any real value.

>I am not a lawyer.

    Nor am I.

>I am a medical writer.

    I'm a history teacher.

Signature

Kent
No todos los que ven tus obras ven tus virtudes.

Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 00:10 GMT
I'm a history teacher.
~ Kent

YOU BLAME EVERYTHING ON YOU PAST!

GET OVER IT.
Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 00:47 GMT
I'm a history teacher.
~ Kent

YOU BLAME EVERYTHING ON YOU PAST!

GET OVER IT.

I don't blame exactly EVERYTHING on my past;
I also blame Victoria Rivamonte,
a neuropsychologist who said that sh.t to me ...

& Geeeez,
it honestly made me climb out my 16th fl. window

because I went temporarily insane
from the abuse.

That's attempted manslaughter.

Virginia Hooper
Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 00:49 GMT
That's attempted manslaughter.

Virginia Hooper

& she gave me an NYU Medical Center
Notice of Privacy Practice form.
Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 00:51 GMT
Where the HELL

Is Robin Goodman, PhD,
When you f.cking NEED her ~ ?
Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 01:17 GMT
& Geeeez,
it honestly made me climb out my 16th fl. window

because I went temporarily insane
from the abuse.

That's attempted manslaughter.

Virginia Hooper

Because her colleague, my doctor,
wasn't calling me back, either.
Kent Wills - 30 Dec 2005 03:01 GMT
>& Geeeez,
>it honestly made me climb out my 16th fl. window
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Because her colleague, my doctor,
>wasn't calling me back, either.

    Is there some rule that requires they return your calls?  I
don't have enough information to know one way or the other.

Signature

Kent
No todos los que ven tus obras ven tus virtudes.

Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 05:37 GMT
> >& Geeeez,
> >it honestly made me climb out my 16th fl. window
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Kent
> No todos los que ven tus obras ven tus virtudes.

Yes, malpractice, willful indifference to life, neglect,
abandonment.

That is NOT Standartd Practice, in a life-threatening
emergency over the course of one month.
Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 05:40 GMT
I would NOT put my worst enemy
under Matthew B. Smith or Victoria Rivamonte's
healthcare.

And that's a fact.
That is no joke.

Virginia Hooper
Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 05:43 GMT
I would NOT put my worst enemy
under Matthew B. Smith or Victoria Rivamonte's
healthcare.

And that's a fact.
That is no joke.

Virginia Hooper

Perhaps I have not communicated facts
clearly enough.

I think thei licence to practice should be revoked.

I would be content with 5-year probation
and jail time.

Jail time is not such a bad thing;
they could learn a thing or two,
the way I learned a thing or two in Bellevue Psych ER.
Twittering One - 30 Dec 2005 05:50 GMT
These are professional prescribing Schedule II medication,
and monitoring patients taking Schedule II medication.

Failure to monitor and respond to suicide risk is unacceptable.

Virginia Hooper
Kent Wills - 30 Dec 2005 03:00 GMT
>I'm a history teacher.
>~ Kent
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>I also blame Victoria Rivamonte,
>a neuropsychologist who said that sh.t to me ...

    Maybe you do.  I don't know you, so I can not know.

>& Geeeez,
>it honestly made me climb out my 16th fl. window
>
>because I went temporarily insane
>from the abuse.

    Telling you that you blame everything on your past is not
abuse.  It may or may not be accurate, but it doesn't fit into any
definition of abuse.

>That's attempted manslaughter.

    Maybe, but you'll have a heck of a time proving it.

Signature

Kent
No todos los que ven tus obras ven tus virtudes.

Kent Wills - 30 Dec 2005 02:58 GMT
>I'm a history teacher.
>~ Kent
>
>YOU BLAME EVERYTHING ON YOU PAST!

    I've blamed nothing on anything.  What are you on about here?

>GET OVER IT.

    Was I under it?

Signature

Kent
No todos los que ven tus obras ven tus virtudes.

Dane - 31 Jan 2006 18:09 GMT
> >Kent,
> >Will you accompany me to lawyer's office
> >and advocate for me?

Hi Twittering...

Did you know that any conversation that you have with an attorney at whick a
3rd (or more) party is present is considered to be one that is outside the
scope of the attorney-client privilege?

I just wanted you to keep that in mind for future reference.

Dane
Don - 01 Feb 2006 20:33 GMT
>> Did you know that any conversation that you have with an attorney at
>> whick a
> 3rd (or more) party is present is considered to be one that is outside the
> scope of the attorney-client privilege?

Do you mean "a 3rd party not being represented by the attorney" is present?
In other words, if I have a legal problem and take my wife along with me to
the attorney's office to discuss it, does that mean nothing we say is
confidential? If the attorney is going to represent  "both of us" or "the
family," or whatever, does that make it privileged? If the attorney is
representing me alone and I just take my wife along to see what is going on
or to provide additional information I might have forgotten, does that
destroy the attorney-client privilege?

If the latter were true, it is something that is not widely known and more
people should be informed about!
Jon Beaver - 02 Feb 2006 01:45 GMT
>>> Did you know that any conversation that you have with an attorney at
>>> whick a
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>If the latter were true, it is something that is not widely known and more
>people should be informed about!

Yes, people should be informed, and I always do when a client wants
someone to "sit in" on a consultation.  You bring a third party --
friend, relative, spouse, parent -- to a consultation with an
attorney.  Later, that third party voluntarily tells what you said.
No problem -- no privilege.  May that third party be compelled to
testify to a statement made by the client or the attorney?  I can't
think why not. May the attorney tell over the objection of the client?
Absolutely not.  There are other questions, and many variations, but
just remember that the attorney-client privilege is for the protection
of the client, not the attorney or the third party, it binds the
attorney but not the client or third party, and it can be expressly or
impliedly waived by the client -- like by letting a third party sit
in.

- Jon Beaver
Don - 02 Feb 2006 04:04 GMT
> Yes, people should be informed, and I always do when a client wants
> someone to "sit in" on a consultation.  You bring a third party --
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> think why not. May the attorney tell over the objection of the client?
> Absolutely not.

That is interesting. I take it then that an attorney could not be compelled
to testify to something revealed by a client simply because a spouse was
present when the information was revealed. This is what bothered me in the
previous post.
Jon Beaver - 02 Feb 2006 09:45 GMT
>> Yes, people should be informed, and I always do when a client wants
>> someone to "sit in" on a consultation.  You bring a third party --
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>present when the information was revealed. This is what bothered me in the
>previous post.

But consider whether the SPOUSE can be compelled to testify.  I think
the spouse can be compelled.

- Jon Beaver
Adam00 - 02 Feb 2006 14:41 GMT
>>> Yes, people should be informed, and I always do when a client wants
>>> someone to "sit in" on a consultation.  You bring a third party --
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> But consider whether the SPOUSE can be compelled to testify.  I think
> the spouse can be compelled.

I didn't think a spouse could be compelled (forced) to testify against their
husband or wife.  Is this not true?
Twittering One - 02 Feb 2006 19:07 GMT
"I didn't think a spouse could be compelled
(forced)
To testify against their husband or wife.
Is this not true ~ ?"
~ Adam

"A Picture Is [sometimes] Worth 1000
Words."
~ Zoe
Adam00 - 02 Feb 2006 19:22 GMT
> "I didn't think a spouse could be compelled
> (forced)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "A Picture Is [sometimes] Worth 1000
> Words."

Please explain.
Jon Beaver - 02 Feb 2006 19:30 GMT
>>>> Yes, people should be informed, and I always do when a client wants
>>>> someone to "sit in" on a consultation.  You bring a third party --
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>I didn't think a spouse could be compelled (forced) to testify against their
>husband or wife.  Is this not true?

Depends on your state.  That's another matter -- spousal privilege.
It has nothing to do with the attorney-client privilege.

- Jon Beaver
Don - 02 Feb 2006 22:32 GMT
> But consider whether the SPOUSE can be compelled to testify.  I think
> the spouse can be compelled.

I can think of many occasions where spouses consult an attorney together,
and have been in a few myself along with my wife. They always occur in
connection with real estate transactions. I have never thought about
attorney-client privilege and have more or less assumed that these meetings
would be strictly confidential. It is hard to think of a reason why anyone
would have to testify as to what was said during consultation about buying
or selling property, but, come to think of it, that probably could happen.
Jon Beaver - 03 Feb 2006 00:32 GMT
>> But consider whether the SPOUSE can be compelled to testify.  I think
>> the spouse can be compelled.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>would have to testify as to what was said during consultation about buying
>or selling property, but, come to think of it, that probably could happen.

Consider parents who come into my office to ask me to represent their
teen-ager in a juvenile court delinquency proceeding.  I get them to
sigh the fee contract and then I say "Okay, will you will please wait
outside while I talk to MY CLIENT." It sometimes takes them by
surprise and sometimes it takes them a minute or two to realize that I
am serious.  You'd be amazed at how often, once the parents are out of
the room, the kid will tell me what really happened and then say ". .
. but don't tell my parents."  I assure him/her I won't.

In my family of lawyers we have a little saying:  A lawyer can get by
without knowing the law, but he's in big trouble if he forgets who his
client is.

- Jon Beaver
Twittering One - 28 Dec 2005 00:04 GMT
"I think I recall you telling me you liked one of them in
an e-mail -- said she was hot."
~ O Hush

Dr. Seiden is cute, but she's a bloody bitch.
Twittering One - 28 Dec 2005 00:12 GMT
How do you
Model Empowerment ~ ?

O,
Just observe a first ~ rate

LITIGATOR

In action ...

... for you ~ !

How do we spell Empowerment ~ ?

* M * O * N * E * Y
Twittering One - 29 Dec 2005 16:12 GMT
"I think I recall you telling me you liked one of them in
An e-mail ~ said she was hot."
~ O Hush

"Dr. Seiden is cute,
But she's a bloody bitch.."
~ Twittering

"Twittering,
According to Merlot's grape vine, Dr.
Seiden likes to win her cases. Nice
A winning legal case does not comprise."
~ Folly
Twittering One - 29 Dec 2005 16:15 GMT
"O, very wise
Goose, you, Folly, I do realize."
~ Twittering
 
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