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Medical Forum / General / General / December 2005

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breast cancer: the critical facts

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fresh~horses - 16 Dec 2005 08:03 GMT
The Critical Facts:

  1. There is no prevention.
  2. There is no cure.
  3. Breast cancer knows no boundaries of race or class.

Number of Breast Cancer Cases in the United States

Breast cancer is by far the most common cancer among women. An
estimated 2,184,125 women are living with the disease.1 This year
breast cancer will account for nearly one out of every three cancer
diagnoses in women.2

In 2004, an estimated 215,990 new cases of invasive breast cancer were
diagnosed among women (an increase of nearly 2% over 2003).3 This
number does not include cases of ductal carcinoma in situ (DCIS). An
estimated 59,390 new cases of DCIS were diagnosed in 2004.4

If every woman lived to age 85, one out of seven women in the United
States would develop breast cancer by that time-a "lifetime" risk
that was one out of 14 in 1980. A new breast cancer case is diagnosed
every 1.9 minutes.5

Men develop breast cancer, too, although they account for less than 1%
of cases. In 2004, an estimated 1,450 cases were diagnosed among men.6
Breast Cancer Risk

Breast cancer knows no color boundaries. Overall, white women are most
likely to be diagnosed with breast cancer, while black women are more
likely to die from it.7 Among women under the age of 50, black women
have higher incidence rates than white women.8

Risk increases with age. A woman's chances of getting breast cancer
from birth to age 30 is 1 in 251, from ages 40 to 49 the risk is 1 in
36, from ages 50 to 59 it is 1 in 26, and from birth to death it is 1
in 7.9

Every woman is at risk for breast cancer. Over 70 percent of breast
cancers occur in women who have no identifiable risk factors other than
age.10 Only 5-10% of breast cancers are linked to a family history of
breast cancer.11
Breast Cancer Death Rates in the United States

Cancer accounts for 1 in every 4 deaths in this country.12

Cancer kills more than any other cause, except for heart disease.13
Breast cancer is the second leading cause of cancer death among women
as a whole. (Lung cancer is the first).14

In 2004, it is estimated that there were about 40,580 deaths from
breast cancer (40,110 women, 470 men).15 A woman dies from breast
cancer every 13 minutes.

According to the most recent cancer statistics review, African American
women with breast cancer are less likely than white women to survice 5
years after diagnosis: 76% versus 90% respectively.16

Black women with breast cancer are dying younger than other women with
breast cancer. The median age at death for white breast cancer patients
is 70 years; for black breast cancer patients it is 61 years.17
Survival Rates

86.8% of women who were diagnosed with breast cancer 5 years ago are
still alive. Of those diagnosed 10 years ago, 77.3% are still living,
while the survival rate of women diagnosed 20 years ago is 52.2%.18

The five-year survival rate for white women is 87.6%, while that for
black women is 72.5%. Five-year survival rates also vary according to
age of diagnosis: 83% for women under age 45, 87% for women aged 45-54,
and just over 88% for women age 55 and older.19
Mammography

Mammograms do not prevent breast cancer. They detect tumors, but miss
close to 30% of all breast cancers. Screening methods also result in up
to 12% false positives.20 For women between ages 40 and 49, studies
have shown no consistent effect of screening mammography on
mortality.21
Income

Lack of medical insurance and poor access to treatment and screening
decrease survival. Breast cancer patients with low incomes have 5-year
relative survival rates that are 9% lower than higher-income patients;
and low-income African-American women are three times more likely than
higher-income African-American women to be diagnosed with advanced
disease.22
Insurance

In 2000, only 16% of uninsured women reported having had a mammogram in
the past year, compared with 40% of insured women.23

Uninsured women are more likely to be diagnosed at a later stage of
breast cancer. Uninsured women between the ages of 50 and 64 are 40%
more likely to die than privately insured women, and women ages 35-49
are 60% more likely to die than privately insured women.24

Approximately 43.6 million people in the United States (15.2% of the
total population) had no health insurance coverage in 2002.25
The Environment

In 2000, U.S. industries reported the release of 7.1 billion pounds of
toxic chemicals. This represents only a portion of all toxic chemical
releases nationwide.26

Of the 85,000 chemicals in commercial use today, 90% have never been
tested for human health effects. Complete toxilogical screening data
exists for only 7%.27

Environmental estrogens, chemicals foreign to the body that mimic
estrogen (which controls the growth of breast cells) are found in what
we eat, drink, breathe, and in compounds we use at work, home, and in
the garden. So far, 45 chemicals have been found to be estrogenic.28

While breast milk remains the clearly superior option for infants, up
to 40% of expressed breast milk was found to be contaminated with
toxins which have yet to be identified.29  However, as a result of
DDT-style bans, emissions reductions, and other forms of pollution
regulation, levels of key breast-milk contaminants have been
declining.30

Forty-three chemicals in use today are known to induce mammary tumors
in laboratory animals.31

1 National Cancer Institute, Surveillance Epidemiology and End Results
(NCI SEER) program, Cancer Statistics Review (CSR),
http://seer.cancer.gov/csr/1975_2002. SEER statistics are based on data
collected at cancer registries in various areas of the country, and are
always a few years behind. This publication was released in 2005. US
Estimated Complete Prevalence Count.

2 American Cancer Society, Cancer Facts & Figures 2005 Breast cancer
represents 31% of total cancer cases in women.

3 American Cancer Society, Cancer Facts & Figures 2005.

4 American Cancer Society, Breast Cancer Facts & Figures 2005.

5 American Cancer Society, Cancer Facts & Figures 2003-2004.

6 American Cancer Society, Cancer Facts & Figures 2005.

7 American Cancer Society, Cancer Facts & Figures 2003-2004.Incidence
for white women is 140.8 per 100,000 vs. 121.7 for black women;
mortality is 35.9 for black women vs. 27.2 for white women.

8 NCI SEER CSR 1997-2001; canques.seer.cancer.gov., Incidence for Age
Adjusted Rates, 9 Registries, 1996-2000.  Incidence rates among white
females under age 50 is 43.4 per 100,000; for black females under 50 it
is 44.3.

9 American Cancer Society, Breast Cancer Facts & Figures 2003-2004.

10 U.S. General Accounting Office. Breast Cancer, 1971-1991:
Prevention, Treatment and Research.  GAO/PEMD-92-12; 1991.

11 American Cancer Society, Breast Cancer Facts & Figures 2003-2004.

12 American Cancer Society, Cancer Facts & Figures 2003-2004.

13 Office of Women's Health, Centers fro Disease Control and
Prevention, Leading Causes of Death 2002.

14 NCI SEER CSR 1996-2000, Table I-13.

15 American Cancer Society, Cancer Facts & Figures 2005.

16 NCI SEER CSR 1975-2002, For black women the mortality rate per
100,000 is 34.7 vs. 25.9 for white women.
http://www.seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/breast.html.

17 NCI SEER CSR 1997-2001, Breast Cancer; Table I-14.

18  NCI SEER CSR 1997-2001; Breast Cancer, Table IV-8.

19 NCI SEER CSR 1997-2001; Breast Cancer, Table IV-7.  Five-year
survival for white women under age 45 is 85% vs. 70.2% for
African-American women.  Median age of diagnosis for white women is 63
years, for African-American women it is 56 years.  Overview, Table
I-12.

20 Poplack, S et.al. Mammography in 53,803 Women from the New Hampshire
Mammography Network. Radiology 2000: 217:832840 and Yankansas, B et
al., Association of Result Rates with Sensistivity and Positive
Predictive Values of Screening Mammograph.  The Journal of the American
Roentgen Ray Society, Sept 2001 177

21 National Institutes of Heath Consensus Development Conference
Statement, Breast Cancer Screening for Women Ages 40-49, January 21-23,
1997.

22 National Cancer Institute, Breast Cancer Research and Programs: An
Overview, Bethesda, MD, 1995; as cited in Breast Cancer Facts & Figures
1999-2000

23 Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured, Uninsured in
America: a Chart Book, Second Edition, May 2000.
http://www.kff.org/docs/sections/kcmu/uia2000.html

24 Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured, Uninsured in
America: a Chart Book, Second Edition, May 2000. Also of note: 54% of
privately insured women are diagnosed at the local (earlier) stage,
compared to 44% of uninsured women.

25 U.S. Census Bureau, http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-223.pdf

26 U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Toxics Release Inventory
Public Data Release Report Executive Summary, ES-13, 2000.
http://www.epa.gov/tri/tridata/tri00/press/execsummary_final.pdf. TRI
report includes 91,513 reports from 23,484 facilities.

27 Bennet M, Davis BJ. The identification of mammary carcinogens in
rodent bioassays; Environmental and Molecular Mutagenesis: 2002. In
Press.

28 Theo Colburn et al. World Wildlife Fund as cited by World Resources
Institute www.wri.org/health/estrogen.html

29 Grover, PL Martin FL. The Initiation of breast and prostrate cancer.
Carcinogenesis 2002. July, 23(7): 1095-102.

30 K. Noren, et al., "Methlysufonyl Metabolites of PCBs and DDE in
Human Milk in Sweden, 1972-1992," Environmental Health Perspectives
104: 776-73. 1996; Furst, "Human Milk as a Bioindicator" ; A. Somogyi
and H. Beck, "Nurturing and Breastfeeding: Exposure to Chemicals in
Breast Milk, Environmental Health Perspectives 101: 45-52, 1993.

31 Brown, NM. Xenosestrogens alter mammary gland differentiation and
cell proliferation in the rat. Environmental Health Perspectives; 103:
708-13, Lamartiniere CA. 1995.

(Updated October 2005)
Peter Moran - 16 Dec 2005 20:58 GMT
> The Critical Facts:
>
>   1. There is no prevention.

Not wholly true, but a long story involved.

>   2. There is no cure.

This is a silly, irresponsible statement.   Only about one in four of all
women getting breast cancer in 2005 will die from it.  The cure rate would
be even better if it were not for doom merchants who discourage women from
seeking  screening, early diagnosis and effective treatment by implying that
it doesn't matter.  It does.

If you look at the breast cancer graph at
http://home.gil.com.au/~moringa/cancer/cancercuredraft.htm  (the third graph
is the one) you will observe how death rates have been consistently
declining over the last 20-25 years despite an ever-increasing incidence.

And that's not all.  It is true that there is no certain cure for patients
with distant metastases from breast cancer.   While we can't always prevent
metastases developing, we can prevent other nasty outcomes, like the ones
shown here   ----  http://www.vci.org/breast1.htm.  .  The palliative
benefits of proper treatment can also be  overlooked when hopelessness
rules..

Peter Moran
fresh~horses - 16 Dec 2005 22:42 GMT
If you define cure as being at five years, I guess you're right. But
that's a spurious disgusting ploy only the cancer industry gets away
with.

Neither I nor BCA have implied that screening and effective treatment
don't matter. What you infer comes from your agenda.
Steph - 16 Dec 2005 22:50 GMT
> If you define cure as being at five years, I guess you're right. But
> that's a spurious disgusting ploy only the cancer industry gets away
> with.

Nobody mentuoned five years, except you

> Neither I nor BCA have implied that screening and effective treatment
> don't matter. What you infer comes from your agenda.

Pot, kettle, black
fresh~horses - 16 Dec 2005 23:15 GMT
> > If you define cure as being at five years, I guess you're right. But
> > that's a spurious disgusting ploy only the cancer industry gets away
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Pot, kettle, black

You sicken me. You ride these newsgroups trivialializing and ridiculing
women who want to know all they can  find out about breast cancer. All
the information, all the thinking, not some select industry line from
which you derive your living.

>From the Cochrane Collaboration:

"Authors' conclusions

The currently available reliable evidence does not show a survival
benefit of mass screening for breast cancer (and the evidence is
inconclusive for breast cancer mortality). Women, clinicians and policy
makers should consider these findings carefully when they decide
whether or not to attend or support screening programs."
Steph - 17 Dec 2005 02:16 GMT
>> > If you define cure as being at five years, I guess you're right. But
>> > that's a spurious disgusting ploy only the cancer industry gets away
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the information, all the thinking, not some select industry line from
> which you derive your living.

And people who cast about aspersions which are entirely baseless sicken me.
I have nevre trivialized breast cancer or ridiculed women who want the
facts. In fact I spend a significant proportion of my professional life
trying to help women with breast cancer, and I try to do that here. But most
women with breast cancer are normal human beings, not axe-grinding
tendentious drama queens who get their kicks from making a serious disease
more scary than it should be with nonsense assertions about inevitable
incurability and trying to convince patients that the people who spend their
lives trying to help and serve cancer patients are really only doing it out
of the basest selfish motives.

>>From the Cochrane Collaboration:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> makers should consider these findings carefully when they decide
> whether or not to attend or support screening programs."

The Cochrane collaboration is quite right, the currently available evidence
does not show a survival benefit. But absence of evidence of benefit is not
evidence of absence of benefit............
fresh~horses - 17 Dec 2005 05:01 GMT
"Serve cancer patients..."

What a load of self-aggrandizing twaddle. Most women today look for the
honesty and respect displayed by another physician here. Perhaps his
style of doctoring can't promise anything better, but he knows this is
about the patient, not him.

"The Cochrane Collaboration is quite right"

>From the Cochrane Collaboration:

> "Authors' conclusions

> The currently available reliable evidence does not show a survival
> benefit of mass screening for breast cancer (and the evidence is
> inconclusive for breast cancer mortality). Women, clinicians and policy
> makers should consider these findings carefully when they decide
> whether or not to attend or support screening programs."

Thank God for the members of the Cochrane Collaboration, and TI.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 16 Dec 2005 23:52 GMT
> If you define cure as being at five years, I guess you're right. But
> that's a spurious disgusting ploy only the cancer industry gets away
> with.

That's a straw man, since nobody in the "cancer industry" makes such a
blanket claim for all cancers. We've been over this.

SBH
fresh~horses - 17 Dec 2005 01:04 GMT
"Cure" is still used in that context. That context of these posts,
which, I remind you, was BREAST CANCER.  And not lung cancer or any
other cancer. No matter what similarities. It was not any cancer they
spoke of, but BREAST CANCER.

Why can you not accept they have something worthwhile to say about
this, which has affected their lives, each of them, and at which they
spend their days, as volunteers and very lowly paid workers barely
above honoraria, I might add.

Have you seen their annual reports?

> > If you define cure as being at five years, I guess you're right. But
> > that's a spurious disgusting ploy only the cancer industry gets away
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> SBH
Skeptic - 17 Dec 2005 02:59 GMT
There is nothing wrong with using 5 year survival or 5 year recurrence free
rates.  When more extended data is available, it is used and published.  But
the farther out you go, the more variables you introduce.  That's why it's
easiest to get longer term data in cancers affecting many young people.  But
once you get into most cancers, they affect older folks.  If you want 10 or
15 or 20 year data, it's there but often cloudy.  If the average age of
diagnosis of a condition is in the 60's, they'll have exceeded their life
excpectancy in 20 years... and may well have died very naturally of other
causes.

That's not to say we should just always settle for 5 year data.  We of
course always need more long term results.  But for many cancers,
recurrences are seen early.  Low grade bladder cancer, for example, after
resection will most likely recur - if it's going to - within three months of
resection.  If you're free and clear after a year you have excellent odds.
After 5 years you have an extraordinarily low chance of recurrence.  In
fact, after 10 years you can't even get insurance (medicre) to cover further
surveillance because of the so low likelihood of recurrence.

> "Cure" is still used in that context. That context of these posts,
> which, I remind you, was BREAST CANCER.  And not lung cancer or any
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>>
>> SBH
fresh~horses - 17 Dec 2005 03:42 GMT
> There is nothing wrong with using 5 year survival or 5 year recurrence free
> rates.

I do agree, and those terms mean something different from cure is
five-year's breast cancer recurrence free, which women are still told!
It's become a shibboleth and is going to be very hard to  dig this out;
some physicians still use it, most women believe it. It's misleading
and ultimately hurtful to the woman and her family. I think speaking
frankly is much more helpful to the patient, and garners respect and
trust from the patient to you.

I also don't think excising something is a cure. The cancer industry
has not cured ovarian cancer, or uterine cancer, for example. Women are
grateful for the surgery, but want more and better, thank you, than
what was offered our mothers 50 years ago. Make no mistake, I am
appreciative and grateful for the skills you and McCollister have, but
wonder when we will have other options. Medical treatments; not only
surgery.

>When more extended data is available, it is used and published.  But
> the farther out you go, the more variables you introduce.  That's why it's
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> fact, after 10 years you can't even get insurance (medicre) to cover further
> surveillance because of the so low likelihood of recurrence.

> > "Cure" is still used in that context. That context of these posts,
> > which, I remind you, was BREAST CANCER.  And not lung cancer or any
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> >>
> >> SBH
Howard McCollister - 17 Dec 2005 05:41 GMT
> I also don't think excising something is a cure. The cancer industry
> has not cured ovarian cancer, or uterine cancer, for example. Women are
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> wonder when we will have other options. Medical treatments; not only
> surgery.

I have to agree, cutting and sewing on people as if they were garments
certainly does seem a little...inelegant. I would certainly hope that the
future of medicine holds something a little fancier and more dignified. The
thing that has made surgery as good as it is over the years has been the
perioperative support, not the actual surgery itself which, as you say, is
distressingly similar to 50 years ago.

HMc
fresh~horses - 17 Dec 2005 06:05 GMT
> > I also don't think excising something is a cure. The cancer industry
> > has not cured ovarian cancer, or uterine cancer, for example. Women are
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> HMc

What's this... a popcorn-free post from smc's major-domo cutter?
Steph - 17 Dec 2005 08:24 GMT
>> I also don't think excising something is a cure. The cancer industry
>> has not cured ovarian cancer, or uterine cancer, for example. Women are
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> HMc

They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?
fresh~horses - 17 Dec 2005 09:49 GMT
> >> I also don't think excising something is a cure. The cancer industry
> >> has not cured ovarian cancer, or uterine cancer, for example. Women are
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?

Oh give it up. You're no match for Howard's cutting sense of humour.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 17 Dec 2005 19:04 GMT
> Oh give it up. You're no match for Howard's cutting sense of humour.

(rim shot!!)

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Howard McCollister - 17 Dec 2005 13:18 GMT
>>> I also don't think excising something is a cure. The cancer industry
>>> has not cured ovarian cancer, or uterine cancer, for example. Women are
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?

Do you think there is that much difference between a radical mastectomy and
a modified radical mastectomy?

HMc
Eva - 17 Dec 2005 15:11 GMT
> > They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?
>
> Do you think there is that much difference between a radical mastectomy and
> a modified radical mastectomy?
----------
My plastic surgeon seems to think so.
Eva
Howard McCollister - 17 Dec 2005 16:25 GMT
>> > They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> My plastic surgeon seems to think so.
> Eva

The concept is between addressing cancer with manual ablative technique -
which is *still* state-of-the-art for solid tumors, vs the ultimate future
of preventing it altogether or addressing it after-the-fact without the use
of ionizing radiation or sharp instruments. I'm talking about the mythical
"Cure for Cancer". Not "managing" it, actually "curing" it.

That 100 years of modern surgery has brought us only this far is not
anything to jump up and down about IMHO. The incremental, evolutionary,
surgical approach to the treatment of almost all solid malignant tumors over
that period isn't anything to write home about. We're just muddling along,
only doing what we currently know, marking time, until someday, someone
comes up with the Next Big Thing in cancer treatment.  Radical mastectomy vs
modified radical mastectomy vs lumpectomy/SNL aren't even on the path -
they're just evolutionary variations on a theme. We'll keep using them
because it's all we have. For now.

HMc
fresh~horses - 17 Dec 2005 17:05 GMT
This is not unexpected from you Howard, but still deserves comment.

No put-downs. No spin. Just plain unvarnished truth. How refreshing.

Thank you Howard McCollister.
madiba - 19 Dec 2005 11:43 GMT
> This is not unexpected from you Howard, but still deserves comment.
>
> No put-downs. No spin. Just plain unvarnished truth. How refreshing.
>
> Thank you Howard McCollister.
No thanks, that was not "plain unvarnished truth".
Someone that says that has no idea what women went through in past
decades after lymph node removal from the axilla. Chronic lymphedema of
the arm can have huge consequences for the quality of life of these
women!  SLN-biopsy is just one aspect of surgery's move to minimal
invasive techniques. There are many others, some quite dramatic however
many are not relevant to oncology.

Signature

madiba

Howard McCollister - 19 Dec 2005 14:38 GMT
>> This is not unexpected from you Howard, but still deserves comment.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> invasive techniques. There are many others, some quite dramatic however
> many are not relevant to oncology.

The whole point of my posts in this thread was a sort of idle thought about
some point in the future when cancer can be "cured" using techniques that
don't involve the rather crude tools (in a relative sense) that we have
today. And it was directed at Zee because I know that she has come right up
face-to-face with looking VERY closely at those very tools, and because
those kinds of patient-centric concepts are one of the areas where some of
her concepts and some of mine approach similarity. My posts had nothing to
do with whether surgery today is better than surgery 100 years ago. I don't
diminish the difference to the patient between radical mastectomy and
lumpectomy/radiation/SNL - I do the latter on a weekly basis and believe in
it wholeheartedly as being the best we have. But I am kind of sad to see
that *that* is the best we have -- that in 100 years, we are still using the
same concept of  "cut it out (and widely), then poisen or irradiate what's
left". Yes, we may be doing it laparoscopically, or via
lumpectomy/radiation/SNL, and that's great for the patient compared to 100
years ago, but it's the same concept. *Of course* those tools are effective
and have become more so. *Of course* the surgical approaches we use today
have resulted in less morbidity, but someday, not that far off (and this was
the apparently obscure point of my original ill-fated post in this thread),
I'm hoping, for the sake of our patients, that we will be able to use a
completely different paridigm that doesn't necessarily involve extirpative
surgery of any kind, no matter how small the incision. Immunization...gene
therapy...nanobots...SOMETHING. Don't you people think so? Or do you all
think that lumpectomy/SNL/radiation is the pinnacle of the human struggle
against breast cancer and it's the very best we can ever do in terms of
"curing" cancer with the least morbidity to the patient? I don't think so.
It's the best we can do for now, though, and I'm kind of sad about that.

I confess I wasn't paying close attention to this thread (my bad), so I'm
not clear on the point where it was decided than I'm some kind of
pro-Halstedian neanderthal. I'm not. I'm a real modern guy. But I do think
that for all the progress we've made in surgical technique over 100 years of
modern surgery, we are patting ourselves on the back a lot more than we
deserve. Surgeons in general have clung overlong to outmoded concepts and
techniques out of tradition, fear, laziness, self-delusion, and an
unwillingness to fully embrace evidence-based medicine. You people are
touting minimally invasive surgery, but you have no CLUE about the struggle
to get there, and that is still going on. I doubt that most you can imagine
the reluctance with which sentinal lymph node biopsy was embraced by general
surgeons as a group, and the concept of lumpectomy/radiation is STILL viewed
with suspicion by some. Likewise, laparoscopic surgery is moving onto the
surgical landscape in a positively glacial manner.

HMc
Skeptic - 19 Dec 2005 19:17 GMT
>>> This is not unexpected from you Howard, but still deserves comment.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> cancer with the least morbidity to the patient? I don't think so. It's the
> best we can do for now, though, and I'm kind of sad about that.

I was in Boston when the whole anti-angiogenesis "breakthrough" occurred and
had the pleasure of attending of one of the journal clubs where the original
paper was presented before it was published.  Of course we all know what
happened then... we were narrowing in a cure for cancer and what a wonderful
day for science.  Here we are years later and the trials in humans have
failed and failed and failed.  There is no anti-angiogenic treatment.  There
may be someday, but not yet and not for a while.  I'm now involved with a
leading immunology lab.  The excitement is palpable for immunotherapy.  But
it has not delivered as many once hoped.  Trials are consistently
disappointing.  While I do think that we will continue to improve medical
therapies for cancer, I don't think we'll ever see, in any of our lifetimes,
a major paradigm shift.  Surgery, when curative, will continue to be the
gold standard.  And while on level I agree that the premise - when in doubt,
cut it out - may seem a bit barbaric, the flipside is that that when
battling native cells gone bad that want to replicate and destroy, I find
removal of the offending cancer (when possible) to be by far the most
palatable option.
Sdores - 19 Dec 2005 20:24 GMT
Does anyone have an opinion on the cancer treatment that is supposed to be
DNA made for the person?  My cousin was going to get this but unfortunately
she died before it was available.  A friend is dying now but is supposed to
be on this or am I wrong?  I don't know much about this treatment except
that it is available in GA.  I don't know the name of the treatment so it's
hard for me to look for info plus I am in a major flare with severe pain and
having trouble concentrating.  Excuse me please if this makes no sense.  UM
MOM Susan

>>>> This is not unexpected from you Howard, but still deserves comment.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> replicate and destroy, I find removal of the offending cancer (when
> possible) to be by far the most palatable option.
Skeptic - 19 Dec 2005 21:06 GMT
Various forms of this are becoming available, mostly via clinical trials at
this stage.  They have had very variable degrees of success.  Still needs
lots of work.

> Does anyone have an opinion on the cancer treatment that is supposed to be
> DNA made for the person?  My cousin was going to get this but
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>> replicate and destroy, I find removal of the offending cancer (when
>> possible) to be by far the most palatable option.
Sdores - 19 Dec 2005 21:12 GMT
Thanks for answering.  It's not working for my friend too well
unfortunately.  There is a test though, expensive too, that tells if it is
hereditary.  My mother had this done to see if I would definitely get it.
She feels guilty about my crohn's (I keep telling her not to feel guilty
about my crohn's since she doesn't have it and didn't have any control of me
getting it but I guess I would feel the same if my only son got it too.) and
I told her not to take this test but she was determined.  The test came back
negative.  What was surprising though is her insurance paid at 100%!  UM MOM
Susan
> Various forms of this are becoming available, mostly via clinical trials
> at this stage.  They have had very variable degrees of success.  Still
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>>> of the offending cancer (when possible) to be by far the most palatable
>>> option.
Eva - 17 Dec 2005 18:17 GMT
> >> > They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> of ionizing radiation or sharp instruments. I'm talking about the mythical
> "Cure for Cancer". Not "managing" it, actually "curing" it.
----------
But cancer is not an infection, like syphilis for example.  I don't
understand how true "curing" could happen.  It *does* seem mythical to me.
----------
> That 100 years of modern surgery has brought us only this far is not
> anything to jump up and down about IMHO. The incremental, evolutionary,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> they're just evolutionary variations on a theme. We'll keep using them
> because it's all we have. For now.
----------
From a patient's point of view, however, there is a significant difference
between the radical and the modified radical in terms of quality of
life--whatever life is left--afterwards!  That is something to jump up and
down about.
Eva
Howard McCollister - 17 Dec 2005 18:34 GMT
>> >> > They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> down about.
> Eva

You and your buddy Steph have to think more broadly than just the concept
"eek...it's cancer!!! cut it out!!! cut it out!!! burn it!!! burn it!!!
poisen it!!! poisen it!!!" Let's continue to strive for something a little
more elegant rather than just patting ourselves on the back because we've
managed to make smaller incisions.

HMc
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 17 Dec 2005 19:09 GMT
>>>>>>They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> HMc

    In that regard I think the management of prostate ca in older men is
interesting.  I know that it has only recently been demonstrated that
total prostatectomies inprove survival in younger prostate ca patients.
 But management of advanced prostate cancers--hormones,
bis-phosphonates for bony metastasis--really does bring this closer to a
model of medical management of cancer as a chronic disease.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

madiba - 19 Dec 2005 11:43 GMT
> In that regard I think the management of prostate ca in older men is
> interesting.  I know that it has only recently been demonstrated that
> total prostatectomies inprove survival in younger prostate ca patients.
Maybe, but
1. there has never been a head-to-head study showing surgery to have
better survival data than conformal radiation therapy.
2. quality of life issues with the side effects of surgery like
incontinence and impotence are more relevant in young men.

>   But management of advanced prostate cancers--hormones,
> bis-phosphonates for bony metastasis--really does bring this closer to a
> model of medical management of cancer as a chronic disease.
True, but as I've seen in many patients lately the primary tumor is
forgotten in the rush to palliation...  The treatment works and years
later the guy still cant pee and runs around with a catheter in his
pants because of the big prostate cancer closing off his bladder!

Signature

madiba

Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 19 Dec 2005 15:15 GMT
>>In that regard I think the management of prostate ca in older men is
>>interesting.  I know that it has only recently been demonstrated that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 2. quality of life issues with the side effects of surgery like
> incontinence and impotence are more relevant in young men.

    This is no doubt true.

>>  But management of advanced prostate cancers--hormones,
>>bis-phosphonates for bony metastasis--really does bring this closer to a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> later the guy still cant pee and runs around with a catheter in his
> pants because of the big prostate cancer closing off his bladder!

    I don't know about that.  I would think that palliation (if that's what
you choose to call it--I wouldn't.  Palliation sounds like making the
patient comfortable while they wait to die) would include maintaining
urinary function.  I assume that hormonal therapies would shrink (or at
least retard the growth of) the primary tumor no less than that of
metastasis.
    There are other patients (my father is one) who are essentially symptom
free, and this treatment is purely to delay the progress of the disease.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Steph - 19 Dec 2005 21:23 GMT
>>>In that regard I think the management of prostate ca in older men is
>>>interesting.  I know that it has only recently been demonstrated that
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> There are other patients (my father is one) who are essentially symptom
> free, and this treatment is purely to delay the progress of the disease.

Palliation is any treatment which will improve the quality of life of
patients who are not curable. Nothing to do with "waiting to die"
Skeptic - 19 Dec 2005 21:41 GMT
>>>>In that regard I think the management of prostate ca in older men is
>>>>interesting.  I know that it has only recently been demonstrated that
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Palliation is any treatment which will improve the quality of life of
> patients who are not curable. Nothing to do with "waiting to die"

Quite right.  We "palliate" prostate cancer patients all the time.  They are
then able to enjoy the Caribbean, their grandkids, some golf, or whatever is
they choose.  People often have a misconception of palliation being giving
morphine to someone as they're gasping for air in bed.  There is so much
more too it.  We often get elderly men by long enough with metastatic
prostate cancer that something else comes along and takes their life.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 19 Dec 2005 22:48 GMT
>>>>>In that regard I think the management of prostate ca in older men is
>>>>>interesting.  I know that it has only recently been demonstrated that
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> more too it.  We often get elderly men by long enough with metastatic
> prostate cancer that something else comes along and takes their life.

    In my limited experience here, the word "palliation" is used most
frequently in terminally ill patients.  I agree that the definition
should be broader.  However, I would bet that most urologists and
oncologists do not usually use the word "palliation" with their prostate
patients who are otherwise doing well.
    I would also add that the example given by madiba, where a patient
needs a catheter on a permanent basis, isn't being "palliated" very
well, if indeed as he/she says, "the primary tumor is
>>>>forgotten in the rush to palliation... "

Steve

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Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Skeptic - 20 Dec 2005 00:41 GMT
>>>>>>In that regard I think the management of prostate ca in older men is
>>>>>>interesting.  I know that it has only recently been demonstrated that
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> not usually use the word "palliation" with their prostate patients who are
> otherwise doing well.

There is certainly individual variation as well as variation based on degree
of progression of disease.
Steph - 20 Dec 2005 03:14 GMT
>>>>>>In that regard I think the management of prostate ca in older men is
>>>>>>interesting.  I know that it has only recently been demonstrated that
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> Steve

There are only three reasons to give anyone any treatment:
1) Is cure possible, at an acceptable cost in side-effects? Do it
2) Cure isn't possible, but is useful survival extension is, at an
acceptable cost in side-effects? Do it
3) Cure isn't possible, nor is survival extension, but is improved quality
of life possible from treatment? Then do it

Leaving aside non-,melanoma skin cancers, for which the cure rate is well
over 90%, approximately half of patients treated with radiotherapy are
having treatment which is designed to cure. The other half are ALL having
palliative treatment
madiba - 21 Dec 2005 00:07 GMT
> > Quite right.  We "palliate" prostate cancer patients all the time.  They are
> > then able to enjoy the Caribbean, their grandkids, some golf, or whatever is
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> "palliated" very well, if indeed as he/she says, "the primary tumor is
> forgotten in the rush to palliation... "

I didnt want to imply that these patients were about to die, its simply
a non-cureable scenario. The 'rush' to palliation reflects a recent
trend in oncology (and politics) to accept the fact that some cases are
incurable. Recently treated a guy with early paralysis that still had
such a catheter, palliative treatment started 2002. I should add that
he'd had the catheter for 'only' 3 months.  I think this can happen when
prostate patients initially present with stage IV disease (usually bone
mets). The urologists pass them on for systemic treatment / pain
treatment, and somewhere along the line its forgotten to get them back
to urology for local treatment. Often a TURP is enough to provide good
QOL.
Signature

madiba

Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 21 Dec 2005 18:51 GMT
> I didnt want to imply that these patients were about to die, its simply
> a non-cureable scenario. The 'rush' to palliation reflects a recent
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> to urology for local treatment. Often a TURP is enough to provide good
> QOL.

    Thanks for the clarification, and apologies for my perhaps hasty
response to your earlier post.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

J - 18 Dec 2005 18:15 GMT
> >> >> > They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?
> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> "eek...it's cancer!!! cut it out!!! cut it out!!! burn it!!! burn it!!!
> poisen it!!! poisen it!!!"

You're playing right into the hands of those who fear cancer treatments and send
them into "altieland"

And I rather doubt that Steph would ever say "eek".

> Let's continue to strive for something a little
> more elegant rather than just patting ourselves on the back because we've
> managed to make smaller incisions.
>
> HMc

What's elegant is the number of lives that Steph saves every year.
J
Eva - 18 Dec 2005 18:44 GMT
> >> >> > They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?
> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> more elegant rather than just patting ourselves on the back because we've
> managed to make smaller incisions.
-----------
Let me clarify this point.  Steph isn't my buddy by any stretch of the
imagination; we've never even had a prolonged discussion here.  I am
speaking as a breast cancer patient who had a modified radical mastectomy
one year ago, preceded by chemo, followed by radiation.  I am now planning
to have reconstructive cosmetic surgery , and my plastic surgeon did in fact
comment on how difficult this would have been to do after the radical
procedure.  If you were diagnosed with Stage 3 breast cancer as I was, I do
not think your view would be so sanguine.  I think you too would be crying
"cut it out, burn it, poison it."  I don't know you, but if you're a human
being I believe you would react this way.

Eva
Peter Moran - 17 Dec 2005 21:03 GMT
>> >> > They still doing Halstead radical mastectomies in your town?
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> But cancer is not an infection, like syphilis for example.  I don't
> understand how true "curing" could happen.  It *does* seem mythical to me.

Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal life
span with no recurrence.  These are the simple facts, borne out by the
statistics of all countries that keep them.

Are you of the belief that cancer is always a generallised illness?   It is
true that many abnormalities that predispose to cancer are generalised, but
cancer itself is *always* a disease of a specific tissue or organ, only
spreading to involve opther organs later.   Getting it early enough is one
of the keys to cure, but difficult with more aggressive kinds of  cancer.

Peter Moran

www.cancerwatcher.com

> ----------
>> That 100 years of modern surgery has brought us only this far is not
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> down about.
> Eva
Howard McCollister - 18 Dec 2005 02:34 GMT
> Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
> cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal life
> span with no recurrence.  These are the simple facts, borne out by the
> statistics of all countries that keep them.

The semantics as I'm using them might be a little obscure. I say we "manage"
the cancer rather than "cure" it, but I grant you that in many cases, we
"manage" it so well, through a variety of extirpative and adjuvant methods
that the patient won't die of their cancer, and may very well never have a
recurrence of that cancer. That could very well be considered a cure as we
refer to it in common parlance. After such surgery, most surgeons would be
reluctant to label it so, however, just as they'd be reluctant to tell a
patient that they're screwed with certainty.

> Are you of the belief that cancer is always a generallised illness?   It
> is true that many abnormalities that predispose to cancer are generalised,
> but cancer itself is *always* a disease of a specific tissue or organ,
> only spreading to involve opther organs later.   Getting it early enough
> is one of the keys to cure, but difficult with more aggressive kinds of
> cancer.

No, I don't think the disease itself is a generalized disease, and yes,
diagnosing and/or treating a cancer early relative to it's aggressiveness
makes successful "management" of that cancer more likely.

HMc
Peter Moran - 18 Dec 2005 05:46 GMT
>> Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
>> cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The semantics as I'm using them might be a little obscure. I say we
> "manage" the cancer rather than "cure" it,

I was talking to Eva, rather than you,  but I don't accept these bullshit
semantics.   They are too often employed ny quacks to divert attention from
the simple fact that their treatments neither cure, "manage", or palliate
cancer.   When I use the word cure I use it in the exact meaning that
applies to any other disease i.e. the symptoms and physical manifestations
of cancer go away and stay away forever.   What could be more simple, and
why not use it this way when it applies?

>but I grant you that in many cases, we "manage" it so well, through a
>variety of extirpative and adjuvant methods that the patient won't die of
>their cancer, and may very well never have a recurrence of that cancer.
>That could very well be considered a cure as we refer to it in common
>parlance.

Thankyou.  What else would it mean, in any parlance?

You seem to believe that we should be able to cure cancer in easier ways.
We could already fo that in many, if we were prepared to take the easiest
path.   Perhaps fifty per cent of early breast cancers would be cured by a
simple, cosmetic lumpectomy,  but we can't yet reliably determine which
ones.  We feel, rightly or wrongly,  that we must risk overtreating those
patients in order to prevent intolerable outcomes and death  for the other
fifty per cent that are  intermixed with them.

If you don't understand that and the difficulties in selecting out those
patients who will do well with lesser treatments, you have some study to do.
The ability to pick and choose is coming, but we are not going to risk the
lives and well-being of women until we know the risks are minimal.   As it
is, there is a significant local recurrence rate after lumpectomy and
radiotherapy and those women end up with mastectomy anyway.

We already have medical treatments that will cause many breast cancers to
disappear e.g. estrogen antagonists and chemotherapy, but they nearly always
recur with a few years.  They are likely to do so with any other forseeable
medical treatment of the near future.  So  surgery and radiotherapy will be
around for a while yet.

Peter Moran

www.cancerwatcher.com

After such surgery, most surgeons would be
> reluctant to label it so, however,

just as they'd be reluctant to tell a
> patient that they're screwed with certainty.

>> Are you of the belief that cancer is always a generallised illness?   It
>> is true that many abnormalities that predispose to cancer are
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> HMc
Howard McCollister - 18 Dec 2005 08:05 GMT
>>> Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
>>> cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> forseeable medical treatment of the near future.  So  surgery and
> radiotherapy will be around for a while yet.

Blah, blah, blah. Clearly, you have never treated a cancer patient in your
life. You spout a bunch of theoretical bullshit but it's clear that your
agenda is quakery and promotion of the usual useless nostrums to desperate
people who can't know better. You don't have a clue what I'm talking about,
but worse, you don't have a clue what *you* are talking about.

HMc
Mark Probert - 18 Dec 2005 16:47 GMT
>>>>Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
>>>>cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> Blah, blah, blah. Clearly, you have never treated a cancer patient in your
> life.

That is really funny. Very, very, funny. Why not look up Dr. Moran on
Google?

You spout a bunch of theoretical bullshit but it's clear that your
> agenda is quakery and promotion of the usual useless nostrums to desperate
> people who can't know better. You don't have a clue what I'm talking about,
> but worse, you don't have a clue what *you* are talking about.

That is even funnier than a plane load of standup comedians.
Howard McCollister - 18 Dec 2005 17:16 GMT
>>>>>Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
>>>>>cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> That is even funnier than a plane load of standup comedians.

(sigh) Yes, that was one of those Usenet posts I wish I could take back. I
owe him an apology.

HMc
Mark Probert - 18 Dec 2005 17:19 GMT
>>>>>>Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
>>>>>>cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> (sigh) Yes, that was one of those Usenet posts I wish I could take back. I
> owe him an apology.

An honorable man.
Sdores - 18 Dec 2005 10:56 GMT
There is no cure for cancer, there is remission.  My mother had breast
cancer and went through the normal way with surgery, chemo and some kind of
pill, then proper follow ups.  She is now cancer free for five years.  She
had cancer another time, skin cancer that was removed and did not return,
this was high on her chest.  My Aunts both had breast cancer and after the
same procedure as my mother it did not recur but one of them got bladder
cancer not long after which was tended to.  She is now 89 and cancer free.
Cancer runs a lot through my mother's family and another a relative, that I
can think of,  when I was young had breast cancer and died of it.  I was
very young but old enough to remember her but I do not know what was done to
help her as I was little and didn't really understand what was going on
other than in time she was very sick and was going to leave us.

I had a tumor removed in my left breast in '91, I think that is the year.  I
was scared of course but I was fortunate that the tumor was benign.  Just
thought I would share.  UM MOM Susan

>>> Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
>>> cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>>
>> HMc
alex - 18 Dec 2005 11:17 GMT
I was treated for Breast cancer stage II and never promised a cure. I was
that the word remission is NEVER used in breast cancer unless it is stage 0
or 1. The term is no evidence of disease. I was also told my chances of
living a normal life span were pretty good.  Patients who are told they are
cured statically would not ever have to deal with the cancer again. I am
grateful for the treatment I received and the knowledge my providers have.
Sdores - 18 Dec 2005 11:30 GMT
Hi thanks for responding, remission was used at her last visit with also
being told it could return but things looked good for now.  She had stage
two I believe because they spoke of a losing the breast possibly.  I find
dr's have different ways of saying things.  I have crohn's and my different
GI's always said things differently though the one I have now is the one I
am staying with.  My first one was an idiot and couldn't diagnose me for so
long that I almost died from a blockage.  Two others were great but too far
away for the normal visits.  Good luck to you and may you stay cancer free
for life.  UM MOM Susan
>I was treated for Breast cancer stage II and never promised a cure. I was
>that the word remission is NEVER used in breast cancer unless it is stage 0
>or 1. The term is no evidence of disease. I was also told my chances of
>living a normal life span were pretty good.  Patients who are told they are
>cured statically would not ever have to deal with the cancer again. I am
>grateful for the treatment I received and the knowledge my providers have.
madiba - 19 Dec 2005 11:43 GMT
> Hi thanks for responding, remission was used at her last visit with also
> being told it could return but things looked good for now.  She had stage
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >cured statically would not ever have to deal with the cancer again. I am
> >grateful for the treatment I received and the knowledge my providers have.
Research works with 5-year statistics which is why many take 5 years to
be the magical 'cure' date. We advise our patients to come to the
follow-up clinics for 10 years. Of course you can both be seen as cured.
How would you define a cure? You get an infection, its treated, you're
cured. But you can get it again. My gut feeling says you're cured of
breast cancer somewhere between 5 and 10 years after treatment. We all
know that BC can 'recur' anytime for up to 25 years or more, but it
makes sense to see these as separate, second tumors which they almost
always are. For head & neck cancer the cure date is somewhere between 3
and 5 years.
I'd have difficulty defining a cure date for Crohns though..

madiba
Sdores - 19 Dec 2005 12:04 GMT
Just for the record, I said remission because that is what my mother said
her dr said.  Yes, breast cancer can recur.  She now is to go back to visit
every two years and of course a mammogram every year.  As for crohn's there
is no cure for it.  You can find info on this at www.ccfa.org .  Sorry for
the confusion.  UM MOM Susan

>> Hi thanks for responding, remission was used at her last visit with also
>> being told it could return but things looked good for now.  She had stage
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> madiba
Skeptic - 18 Dec 2005 18:34 GMT
> There is no cure for cancer, there is remission.

Incorrect.  There exist both.  Educate yourself before spewing lies or
grossly uninformed myths.
Eva - 18 Dec 2005 19:12 GMT
> > Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
> > cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal life
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> reluctant to label it so, however, just as they'd be reluctant to tell a
> patient that they're screwed with certainty.
----------
This is pretty much what I meant.  As I understand it, even after the breast
cancer patient is "cancer-free," there are still these Circulating Tumor
Cells in the bloodstream which always have the potential to attach to a host
site and develop into a metastasis.  If the patient manages to live out a
"normal" lifespan without this ever happening, does that mean she was
"cured," or just lucky?

Eva
Peter Moran - 18 Dec 2005 20:04 GMT
>> > Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
>> > cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> host
> site and develop into a metastasis.

Those cancer cells are a sign that subclinical (non-symptomatic and
otherwise undetectable) micrometastases already exist.   It is true that
those patients cannot be regarded as cured.     But the same applies to
almost any patient with breast cancer. This is why even after  thirty years
we can only say that they are "almost certainly" cured, the certainty
dependent on the size and other features of the original cancer.   But you
are far more likely to die from othere things that we mostly don't worry
much about, such as a car accident.

Look at it this way: it is not that we are not curing patients in any
practical or real sense.  It is that we cannot with complete confidence
pronounce which ones are cured at any point in time.   We can only give
percentages that will range from near zero to near a hundred per cent,
depending on the initial pathology.   This is very frustrating for the
breast cancer patient, I know.

>If the patient manages to live out a
> "normal" lifespan without this ever happening, does that mean she was
> "cured," or just lucky?

Or, she merely took pains to make sure she was given every chance, by
picking it up on mammography when 2-3mm in size, and making sure she had
early and adequate surgery, at least (the addition of radiotherapy helps
prevent local recurrence of cancer, and the need for later mastectomy, but
it probably does not save any extra lives)?

And of course there is always luck involved.

Peter Moran

www.cancerwatcher.com

> Eva
fresh~horses - 18 Dec 2005 20:32 GMT
> >> > Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women ARE
> >> > cured of breast cancer, in the sense that they will live out a normal
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> Peter Moran

I'll just do a hard edit on the context of your post:

There is no cure.
alex - 18 Dec 2005 20:35 GMT
Peter Moran

> I'll just do a hard edit on the context of your post:
>
> There is no cure.

Guess what we are all terminal! Even if you don't have cancer you are going
to die.
Peter Moran - 18 Dec 2005 20:59 GMT
>> >> > Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women
>> >> > ARE
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
>
> There is no cure.

In any way that you interpret these words, it is at the very least a
typically journalistic oversimplification.   It is only close to reality in
some subgoups of cancer such as those with metastatic cancer.  It is a
technicality in that minority of  patients who have circulating tumour cells
after treatment,  but who may yet outlive or overcome them.  The remainder,
which now should constitute the majority of breast cancer patients,  can be
cured in all senses of the word with present treatments.

You must face the fact that you will lead some women to their deaths,
because they will deduce that it doen't matter what they do about breast
cancer.  How can you possibly justify that, or even the impact of your words
on women who have had breast cancer and want to forget about it and get on
with their lives?   .

These are some women who possibly thought "Oh well, there is no cure ---- "
http://www.vci.org/breastcancer1.htm

Peter Moran
fresh~horses - 18 Dec 2005 21:16 GMT
> >> >> > Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of women
> >> >> > ARE
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
>
> Peter Moran

How very interesting to see that the cancer-cure religion uses the
tactics of the anti-aborion movement.

In a couple hundred words you said what was at the head of this thread:
"There is no cure".  Here's a thought: I could have my left leg
removed. That would cure the osteoarthritis in my left ankle. You see
how silly this argument of yours is?

There is treatment, management and remission.
J - 18 Dec 2005 21:25 GMT
> In a couple hundred words you said what was at the head of this thread:
> "There is no cure".  Here's a thought: I could have my left leg
> removed. That would cure the osteoarthritis in my left ankle. You see
> how silly this argument of yours is?

I've got osteoarthritis peppered through my whole body.
That's a managment issue.

> There is treatment, management and remission.

Dad was cured of colorectal cancer with surgery.
J
fresh~horses - 19 Dec 2005 00:29 GMT
I hope your father has a wonderful Christmas J.

> > In a couple hundred words you said what was at the head of this thread:
> > "There is no cure".  Here's a thought: I could have my left leg
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Dad was cured of colorectal cancer with surgery.
> J
Skeptic - 19 Dec 2005 19:03 GMT
>> >> >> > Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of
>> >> >> > women
[quoted text clipped - 119 lines]
>
> There is treatment, management and remission.

Even from an absolutist position - if you remove a cancer, say a small
superficial bladder tumor - of a 58 year old man and after 2 decades of no
further evidence of any bladder tumors he dies of a heart attack, I think
that is by pretty much any reasonable definition a "cure" of his bladder
cancer.  Not remission, which implies suppression of a persistent condition.
It is management and treatment, but also a cure.
Happy Dog - 19 Dec 2005 20:14 GMT
> "fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in message

>> How very interesting to see that the cancer-cure religion uses the
>> tactics of the anti-aborion movement.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> cancer.  Not remission, which implies suppression of a persistent
> condition. It is management and treatment, but also a cure.

In her world, it *would* have come back if he'd lived longer.

moo
Peter Moran - 19 Dec 2005 19:15 GMT
>> >> >> > Can you explain why?   I am puzzled, because the  majority of
>> >> >> > women
[quoted text clipped - 117 lines]
> removed. That would cure the osteoarthritis in my left ankle. You see
> how silly this argument of yours is?

In your mind breast cancer is an illlness than can be equated to
osteoarthritis of the ankle?  That IS silly.

And I am simply trying without obvious success to educate you as to how
things are.    You need to understand things better, otherwise you would not
make statements that are unquestionably against the interests of breast
cancer sufferers or potential breast cancer sufferers.  That is what this is
about.

Let's go through it all again sometime.

Peter Moran


fresh~horses - 19 Dec 2005 19:35 GMT
> >> These are some women who possibly thought "Oh well, there is no cure ----
> >> "
> >> http://www.vci.org/breastcancer1.htm
> >>
> >> Peter Moran

>And I am simply trying without obvious success to educate you as to how
> things are.    You need to understand things better, otherwise you would not
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Peter Moran

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The statements I have posted are supportive of the interests of the
breast cancer patient. They are however, against your interests and
those of the rest of the cancer industry.

Welcome to Cancerland: A Mammogram Leads to a Cult of Pink Kitsch
by Barbara Ehrenreich

Reprinted with the gracious permission of Harper's Magazine

http://www.bcaction.org/Pages/LearnAboutUs/WelcomeToCancerland.html

I was thinking of it as one of those drive-by mammograms, one stop in a
series of mundane missions including post office, supermarket, and gym,
but I began to lose my nerve in the changing room, and not only because
of the kinky necessity of baring my breasts and affixing tiny Xray
opaque stars to the tip of each nipple. I had been in this place only
four months earlier, but that visit was just part of the routine cancer
surveillance all good citizens of HMOs or health plans are expected to
submit to once they reach the age of fifty, and I hadn't really been
paying attention then. The results of that earlier session had aroused
some "concern" on the part of the radiologist and her confederate, the
gynecologist, so I am back now in the role of a suspect, eager to clear
my name, alert to medical missteps and unfair allegations. But the
changing room, really just a closet off the stark windowless space that
houses the mammogram machine, contains something far worse, I notice
for the first time now an assumption about who I am, where I am going,
and what I will need when I get there. Almost all of the eye-level
space has been filled with photocopied bits of cuteness and
sentimentality: pink ribbons, a cartoon about a woman with
iatrogenically flattened breasts, an "Ode to a Mammogram," a list of
the 'lop Ten Things Only Women Understand" ('Fat Clothes" and 'Eyelash
Curlers" among them), and, inescapably, right next to the door, the
poem "I Said a Prayer for You Today," illustrated with pink roses.

It goes on and on, this mother of all mammograms, cutting into gym
time, dinnertime, and lifetime generally. Sometimes the machine doesn't
work, and I get squished into position to no purpose at all. More
often, the X ray is successful but apparently alarming to the invisible
radiologist, off in some remote office, who calls the shots and never
has the courtesy to show her face with an apology or an explanation. I
try pleading with the technician: I have no known risk factors, no
breast cancer in the family, had my babies relatively young and nursed
them both. I eat right, drink sparingly, work out, and doesn't that
count for something'! But she just gets this tight little professional
smile on her face, either out of guilt for the torture she's inflicting
or because she already knows something that I am going to be sorry to
find out for myself. For an hour and a half the procedure is repeated:
the squishing, the snapshot, the technician bustling off to consult the
radiologist and returning with a demand for new angles and more
definitive images. In the intervals while she's off with the doctor I
read the New York Times right down to the personally irrelevant
sections like theater and real estate, eschewing the stack of women's
magazines provided for me, much as I ordinarily enjoy a quick read
about sweatproof eyeliners and "fabulous sex tonight," because I have
picked up this warning vibe in the changing room, which, in my
increasingly anxious state, translates into: femininity is death.
Finally there is nothing left to read but one of the free local weekly
newspapers, where I find, buried deep in the classifieds, something
even more unsettling than the growing prospect of major disease a
classified ad for a "breast cancer teddy bear" with a pink ribbon
stitched to its chest.

Yes, atheists pray in their foxholes-in this case, with a yearning new
to me and sharp as lust, for a clean and honorable death by shark bite,
lightning strike, sniper fire, car crash. Let me be hacked to death by
a madman, is my silent supplication-anything but suffocation by the
pink sticky sentiment embodied in that bear and oozing from the walls
of the changing room.

My official induction into breast cancer comes about ten days later
with the biopsy, which, for reasons I cannot ferret out of the surgeon,
has to be a surgical one, performed on an outpatient basis but under
general anesthesia, from which 1 awake to find him standing
perpendicular to me, at the far end of the gurney, down near my feet,
stating gravely, "Unfortunately, there is a cancer." It takes me all
the rest of that drug-addled day to decide that the most heinous thing
about that sentence is not the presence of cancer but the absence of
me-for I, Barbara, do not enter into it even as a location, a
geographical reference point. Where 1 once was-not a commanding
presence perhaps but nonetheless a standard assemblage of flesh and
words and gesture-"there is a cancer." I have been replaced by it, is
the surgeon's implication. This is what I am now, medically speaking.

In my last act of dignified self-assertion, I request to see the
pathology slides myself. This is not difficult to arrange in our
small-town hospital, where the pathologist turns out to be a friend of
a friend, and my rusty Ph.D. in cell biology (Rockefeller University,
1968) probably helps. He's a jolly fellow, the pathologist, who calls
me "hon" and sits me down at one end of the dual-head microscope while
he mans the other and moves a pointer through the field. These are the
cancer cells, he says, showing up blue because of their overactive DNA.
Most of them are arranged in staid semicircular arrays, like suburban
houses squeezed into a cul-de-sac, but I also see what I know enough to
know I do not want to see: the characteristic "Indian files" of cells
on the march. The "enemy," I am supposed to think-an image to save up
for future exercises in "visualization" of their violent deaths at the
hands of the body's killer cells, the lymphocytes and macrophages. But
I am impressed, against all rational self-interest, by the energy of
these cellular conga lines, their determination to move on out from the
backwater of the breast to colonize lymph nodes, bone marrow, lungs,
and brain. These are, after all, the fanatics of Barbaraness, the rebel
cells that have realized that the genome they carry, the genetic
essence of me, has no further chance of normal reproduction in the
postmenopausal body we share, so why not just start multiplying like
bunnies and hope for a chance to break out?

It has happened, after all; some genomes have achieved immortality
through cancer. When I was a graduate student, I once asked about the
strain of tissue-culture cells labeled "HeLa" in the heavy-doored room
maintained at body temperature. "HeLa," it turns out, refers to one
Henrietta Lacks, whose tumor was the progenitor of all HeLa cells. She
died; they live, and will go on living until someone gets tired of them
or forgets to change their tissue-culture medium and leaves them to
starve. Maybe this is what my rebel cells have in mind, and I try
beaming them a solemn warning: The chances of your surviving me in
tissue culture are nil. Keep up this selfish rampage and you go down,
every last one of you, along with the entire Barbara enterprise. But
what kind of a role model am I, or are multicellular human organisms
generally, for putting the common good above mad anarchistic individual
ambition? There is a reason, it occurs to me, why cancer is our
metaphor for so many runaway social processes, like corruption and
"moral decay": we are no less out of control ourselves.

After the visit to the pathologist, my biological curiosity drops to a
lifetime nadir. I know women who followed up their diagnoses with weeks
or months of self-study, mastering their options, interviewing doctor
after doctor, assessing the damage to be expected from the available
treatments. But I can tell from a few hours of investigation that the
career of a breast-cancer patient has been pretty well mapped out in
advance for me: You may get to negotiate the choice between lumpectomy
and mastectomy, but lumpectomy is commonly followed by weeks of
radiation, and in either case if the lymph nodes turn out, upon
dissection, to be invaded-or "involved," as it's less threateningly
put-you're doomed to chemotherapy, meaning baldness, nausea, mouth
sores, immunosuppression, and possible anemia. These interventions do
not constitute a "cure" or anything close, which is why the death rate
from breast cancer has changed very little since the 1930s, when
mastectomy was the only treatment available. Chemotherapy, which became
a routine part of breast-cancer treatment in the eighties, does not
confer anywhere near as decisive an advantage as patients are often led
to believe, especially in postmenopausal women like myself-a two or
three percentage point difference in ten year survival rates,1
according to America's best-known breast-cancer surgeon, Dr. Susan
Love. I know these bleak facts, or sort of know them, but in the fog of
anesthesia that hangs over those first few weeks, I seem to lose my
capacity for self-defense. The pressure is on, from doctors and loved
ones, to do something right away-kill it, get it out now. The endless
exams, the bone scan to check for metastases, the high-tech heart test
to see if I'm strong enough to withstand chemotherapy-all these blur
the line between selfhood and thing-hood anyway, organic and inorganic,
me and it. As my cancer career unfolds, I will, the helpful pamphlets
explain, become a composite of the living and the dead-an implant to
replace the breast, a wig to replace the hair. And then what will I
mean when I use the word "I"? I fall into a state of unreasoning
passive aggressivity: They diagnosed this, so it's their baby. They
found it, let them fix it.

I could take my chances with "alternative" treatments, of course, like
punk novelist Kathy Acker, who succumbed to breast cancer in 1997 after
a course of alternative therapies in Mexico, or actress and ThighMaster
promoter Suzanne Somers, who made tabloid headlines last spring by
injecting herself with mistletoe brew. Or I could choose to do nothing
at all beyond mentally exhorting my immune system to exterminate the
traitorous cellular faction. But I have never admired the "natural" or
believed in the "wisdom of the body." Death is as "natural" as anything
gets, and the body has always seemed to me like a retarded Siamese twin
dragging along behind me, an hysteric really, dangerously overreacting,
in my case, to everyday allergens and minute ingestions of sugar. I
will put my faith in science, even if this means that the dumb old body
is about to be transmogrified into an evil clown-puking, trembling,
swelling, surrendering significant parts, and oozing postsurgical
fluids. The surgeon-a more genial and forthcoming one this time-can fit
me in; the oncologist will see me. Welcome to Cancerland.

Fortunately, no one has to go through this alone. Thirty years ago,
before Betty Ford, Rose Kushner, Betty Rollin, and other pioneer
patients spoke out, breast cancer was a dread secret, endured in
silence and euphemized in obituaries as a "long illness." Something
about the conjuncture of "breast," signifying sexuality and nurturance,
and that other word, suggesting the claws of a devouring crustacean,
spooked almost everyone. Today however, it's the biggest disease on the
cultural map, bigger than AIDS, cystic fibrosis, or spinal injury,
bigger even than those more prolific killers of women-heart disease,
lung cancer, and stroke. There are roughly hundreds of websites devoted
to it, not to mention newsletters, support groups, a whole genre of
first-person breast-cancer books; even a glossy, upper-middle-brow,
monthly magazine, Mamm. There are four major national breast-cancer
organizations, of which the mightiest, in financial terms, is The Susan
G. Komen Foundation, headed by breast-cancer veteran and Bush's nominee
for ambassador to Hungary Nancy Brinker. Komen organizes the annual
Race for the Cure©, which attracts about a million people-mostly
survivors, friends, and family members. Its website provides a
microcosm of the new breast-cancer culture, offering news of the races,
message boards for accounts of individuals' struggles with the disease,
and a "marketplace" of breast-cancer-related products to buy.

More so than in the case of any other disease, breast-cancer
organizations and events feed on a generous flow of corporate support.
Nancy Brinker relates how her early attempts to attract corporate
interest in promoting breast cancer "awareness" were met with rebuff. A
bra manufacturer, importuned to affix a mammogram-reminder tag to his
product, more or less wrinkled his nose. Now breast cancer has
blossomed from wallflower to the most popular girl at the corporate
charity prom. While AIDS goes begging and low-rent diseases like
tuberculosis have no friends at all, breast cancer has been able to
count on Revlon, Avon, Ford, Tiffany, Pier 1, Estee Lauder, Ralph
Lauren, Lee Jeans, Saks Fifth Avenue, JC Penney, Boston Market, Wilson
athletic gear-and I apologize to those I've omitted. You can "shop for
the cure" during the week when Saks donates 2 percent of sales to a
breast-cancer fund; "wear denim for the cure" during Lee National Denim
Day, when for a $5 donation you get to wear blue jeans to work. You can
even "invest for the cure," in the Kinetics Assets Management's new
no-load Medical Fund, which specializes entirely in businesses involved
in cancer research.

If you can't run, bike, or climb a mountain for the cure-all of which
endeavors are routine beneficiaries of corporate sponsorship-you can
always purchase one of the many products with a breast cancer theme.
There are 2.2 million American women in various stages of their
breast-cancer careers, who, along with anxious relatives, make up a
significant market for all things breast-cancer-related. Bears, for
example: I have identified four distinct lines, or species, of these
creatures, including "Carol," the Remembrance Bear; '}lope," the Breast
Cancer Research Bear, which wears a pink turban as if to conceal
chemotherapy-induced baldness; the "Susan Bear," named
for Nancy Brinker's deceased sister, Susan; and the new Nick & Nora
Wish Upon a Star Bear, available, along with the Susan Bear, at the
Komen Foundation website's "marketplace."

And bears are only the tip, so to speak, of the cornucopia of
pink-ribbon-themed breast-cancer products. You can dress in
pink-beribboned sweatshirts, denim shirts, pajamas, lingerie, aprons,
loungewear, shoelaces, and socks; accessorize with pink rhinestone
brooches, angel pins, scarves, caps, earrings, and bracelets; brighten
up your home with breast-cancer candles, stained-glass pink-ribbon
candleholders, coffee mugs, pendants, wind chimes, and night-lights;
pay your bills with special BreastChecks or a separate line of Checks
for the Cure. "Awareness" beats secrecy and stigma of course, but I
can't help noticing that the existential space in which a friend has
earnestly advised me to "confront [my] mortality" bears a striking
resemblance to the mall.

This is not, I should point out, a case of cynical merchants exploiting
the sick. Some of the breast-cancer tchotchkes and accessories are made
by breast-cancer survivors themselves, such as "Janice," creator of the
"Daisy Awareness Necklace," among other things, and in most cases a
portion of the sales goes to breast-cancer research. Virginia Davis of
Aurora, Colorado, was inspired to create the "Remembrance Bear" by a
friend's double mastectomy and sees her work as more of a "crusade"
than a business. This year she expects to ship 10,000 of these teddies,
which are manufactured in China, and send part of the money to the Race
for the Cure. If the bears are infantilizing-as I try ever so tactfully
to suggest is how they may, in rare cases, be perceived-so far no one
has complained. "I just get love letters," she tells me, "from people
who say, 'God bless you for thinking of us."

The ultrafeminine theme of the breast-cancer "marketplace"-the
prominence, for example, of cosmetics and jewelry-could be understood
as a response to the treatments' disastrous effects on one's looks. But
the infantilizing trope is a little harder to account for, and teddy
bears are not its only manifestation. A tote bag distributed to breast
cancer patients by the Libby Ross Foundation (through places such as
the Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center) contains, among other items,
a tube of Estee Lauder Perfumed Body Crème, a hot-pink satin
pillowcase, an audiotape "Meditation to Help You with Chemotherapy," a
small tin of peppermint pastilles, a set of three small inexpensive