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Medical Forum / General / General / December 2005

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Questions about Cell Volume?

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Kumar - 05 Dec 2005 03:26 GMT
"Mechanisms and clinical significance of cell volume regulation
Background

The ability to avoid excessive changes of cell volume is one of the
most obvious requirements for cell survival. For cell volume constancy
osmotic gradients across the cell membrane must remain small despite
everchanging intracellular and extracellular concentrations of
osmotically active substances. Any osmotic gradient across human and
animal cell membranes is followed by respective movements of water,
since most cell membranes are highly permeable to water and not rigid
enough to build up significant transmembrane hydrostatic pressure
gradients. Obviously, excessive cell swelling will eventually lead to
disruption of the fragile cell membranes and thus to cell death. Beyond

that and probably even more important, cell volume alterations
compromize constancy of intracellular milieuand cell function by
changing concentrations of all cellular components including
macromolecules (macromolecular crowding). Volume regulatory mechanisms
serve to dissipate the osmotic gradient and thus to prevent or reverse
changes of cell volume. They include ion and organic osmolyte transport

across the cell membrane, cellular formation of organic osmolytes and
altered metabolism of macromolecules. The large number of cell volume
regulatory mechanisms is matched by a similar diversity of
intracellular signals creating a rapid, highly powerful and sensitive
machinery which is is turned on by only a few percent of cell swelling
or cell shrinkage. alterations of extracellular ion composition and
concentration, energy depletion, metabolism and transport across the
cell membrane. Cell volume regulatory mechanisms participate in the
regulation of diverse cellular functions such as epithelial transport,
metabolism, excitability, phagocytosis, migration, cell proliferation,
necrotic and apoptotic cell death.
http://www.physiologie.medizin.uni-tuebingen.de/DepI/HeadInfos/Resear...

"

Hello,

The above quote tells us how cell size can matter. MCV is measured with

CBC test which is related to average volume of a red blood cell.
However, average volume of a white blood cells is not measured but
their numbers are only measured. In case of hypertonicity or
hypotonicity of body fluids and ICF, cell size can change and can be
responsible for many functions and disorders.

Can you tell me that whether size of WBCs can also be effected by
different tonicities of fluids?

Can inter-movement of water in ICF and ECF be effected by any change in

cell membranes of RBCs and WBCs due to any disorder? I.E. cells remain
in their changed sizes (swelled or shrinked) more than the normal cells

due to change in membrane's normal potencial/capacity to hold water.

Cells (WBCs?) may brust due to excess water intracellularily as
cytolysis. Can  particles of cells on their cytolysis act as antigens
to immune cells?

Best wishes.
Robert - 05 Dec 2005 05:01 GMT
> The above quote tells us how cell size can matter. MCV is measured with
>
> CBC test which is related to average volume of a red blood cell.

Kumar you are becoming a student of the net or NG's. That is not a good
thing. You should really read first and not rely on these NG's for teaching.

The MCV is not primarily a factor of osmotic forces but on physiological
factors such as microcytic anemias of iron or macrocytic anemias of folate.

The MCV is measured in vitro with osmotic forces of tonicity in force.
Hyperosmotic matrix effects of high glucose or high sodium concentrations
may cause swelling of the red cells in vitro when placed in isotonic
solutions. The intracellular concentrations of chemicals can cause them to
take up the water and thus swell and detected based on a spurious lowered
MCHC.
Macrocytic anemias have a normal MCHC whereas spurious macrocytosis has a
lowered MCHC and that is how you tell the difference. One way to offset this
is to let the cells equalibrate in solution for some time before you measure
them.

> However, average volume of a white blood cells is not measured but
> their numbers are only measured. In case of hypertonicity or
> hypotonicity of body fluids and ICF, cell size can change and can be
> responsible for many functions and disorders.

White cell size and complexity, lobularity of nucleus is dependent on the
solution of cell suspension in vitro is done all the time with the use of
automated white cell differentials classifying each type by laser.

The body regulates osmolality by the use of osmo receptors in the carotid
area that causes water retention or release. It also uses osmotically active
substances that equalibrate IC with time to offset a low or high osmolality.
It takes time so quick adjustments of tonicity are done slowly.
The osmolarity is measured directly by the use of freezing point depression
measurements ie physical chemistry properties of blood. the sodium and
glucose are the most osmotically active substances in the body. The cell
sizing is not done for this purpose.

> Can you tell me that whether size of WBCs can also be effected by
> different tonicities of fluids?

Of course but but as I have said glucose is one of the most active
substances out there and high glucose concentrations affect white cell
activity. Maintaining the cells isotonicity requires energy and older cells
may not be able to keep up so they may fall victum and start to swell, take
in water and sink.

> Can inter-movement of water in ICF and ECF be effected by any change in
>
> cell membranes of RBCs and WBCs due to any disorder? I.E. cells remain
> in their changed sizes (swelled or shrinked) more than the normal cells

Yes. Genetic defects in cell membrane proteins such as Hereditary
Spherocytosis or all spherocytes. One such test is the osmotic fragility
test for red cells. Red cells coated with antibodies are more likely to be
unable to resist osmotic changes as is the case with HS and they die or
lyse. The destruction causes a hemolytic anemia.

> due to change in membrane's normal potencial/capacity to hold water.
>
> Cells (WBCs?) may brust due to excess water intracellularily as
> cytolysis. Can  particles of cells on their cytolysis act as antigens
> to immune cells?

Don't know what you mean by that as the building blocks of the cells come
from your own body and your body is able to recognize yourself as "self" and
not other or foreign.
Autoimmune disease is outside the osmotic complications.

> Best wishes.

This really doesn't have anything to do with cardiology so I will end this
topic.
Kumar - 05 Dec 2005 10:50 GMT
> > The above quote tells us how cell size can matter. MCV is measured with
> >
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
> This really doesn't have anything to do with cardiology so I will end this
> topic.

Robert thanks for explaining. Actually I have posted one topic at
immunology group relating to it. Changes in cell volume was much
relavent to following indication:-
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.immunology/browse_frm/thread/e9039b2c9cfd
b16c/3bfd03fe92cee069#3bfd03fe92cee069


One healing agent's physico-chemical reactions indicates:-

"It(healing agent) destroys old-senile worn out cells, esp. RBCs, WBCs
and macrophases in the liver by taking away their water. Therefore, its

defficiency results into excessive useless circulating, wandering cells

in blood vessels and causes spherocytosis. Cells are enlarged but with
poor performance. They block capilalary ends and cause local ischemic
and necrotic changes.

Its defficiency causes sepretion of old cells from growing tissues.
They circulate in the body and become antigenic in nature. Thus the
body produces auto-immune bodies against these cells. Therefore, it is
usful in auto-immune disorders.."

If changes in cell volumes can block capilalary ends and cause local
ischemic
and necrotic changes....this condition can be related to cardiology. As
it is mentioned against above indications that WBC's also changes but
it couldn't be cleared under those discussions. I therefore posted here
to furthur understand it. Pls tell more details in view of above
indications. Best.
Robert - 05 Dec 2005 19:11 GMT
"Kumar" <lordshiva5753@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
> Robert thanks for explaining. Actually I have posted one topic at
> immunology group relating to it. Changes in cell volume was much
> relavent to following indication:-

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.immunology/browse_frm/thread/e9039b2c9cfd
b16c/3bfd03fe92cee069#3bfd03fe92cee069


> One healing agent's physico-chemical reactions indicates:-
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> poor performance. They block capilalary ends and cause local ischemic
> and necrotic changes.

That is normal physiology as old cells are taken out of circulation by the
spleen and liver.

> Its defficiency causes sepretion of old cells from growing tissues.
> They circulate in the body and become antigenic in nature.

No No. Antigens are surface structures that don't need internal damage to
the cell. Old cells are no more antigenic than young ones. They have the
same antigens.

Thus the
> body produces auto-immune bodies against these cells. Therefore, it is
> usful in auto-immune disorders.."

No. Autoimmune disorder is an over active immunity. Some conditions such as
lymphoma are notorious for autoimmune conditions. Some autoimmune hemolytic
anemias are directed against drugs and not the red cells directly but
indirectly. The drug is required for antibody binding. Once the drug is
removed the autoimmune hemolytic anemia goes away.
Autoimmune disorders are often make one susceptible to other autoimmune
conditions which suggest it is not the antigens but the regulatory cells of
the immune system that are the problem.

> If changes in cell volumes can block capilalary ends and cause local
> ischemic
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to furthur understand it. Pls tell more details in view of above
> indications. Best.

No. The fluctuations seen is not enough to cause that type of change. What
is more important is the number. Anemia causes problems in heart conditions
and an increase in cells causes problems. There are exceptions but they are
uncommon.
It is routine to increase osmolality in head trauma to minimize brain
swelling. Conditions of lowered osmolality with water retention usually
causes problems in circulation because of the increased volume.
Kumar - 06 Dec 2005 03:54 GMT
> No No. Antigens are surface structures that don't need internal damage to
> the cell. Old cells are no more antigenic than young ones. They have the
> same antigens.
But what can happen when cells brust on swelling? Can't their degraded
material act s antigen and activate immune systm?

> No. Autoimmune disorder is an over active immunity. Some conditions such as
> lymphoma are notorious for autoimmune conditions. Some autoimmune hemolytic
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> conditions which suggest it is not the antigens but the regulatory cells of
> the immune system that are the problem.

Can then trigger of autoimmunity be meant for some beneficial purposes
to save big problem at cost of creating some temporary small problems?
Can't  some autoimmune oriented anemia, cells swellings, RBC's
destruction etc. be related to--starving the bacterias in latencies or
cancer cells in tumor to controll and kill them? Can't WBCs destruction
be related to needed suppression of immunity at any time? Can't throid,
beta cells some damages by autoimmunity may be due to excess
secretions? So can there be a possibility of some reasons of triggering
natural autoimmune responses for some purpose which is in the benefit
and survival of body at the cost of some damages?

> No. The fluctuations seen is not enough to cause that type of change. What
> is more important is the number. Anemia causes problems in heart conditions
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> swelling. Conditions of lowered osmolality with water retention usually
> causes problems in circulation because of the increased volume.

Btw, whether pitting edema and non-pitting edema are related to excess
ECF and excess ICF respectively? Best wishes.
HCN - 06 Dec 2005 01:35 GMT
> > The above quote tells us how cell size can matter. MCV is measured with
> >
> > CBC test which is related to average volume of a red blood cell.
>
> Kumar you are becoming a student of the net or NG's. That is not a good
> thing. You should really read first and not rely on these NG's for teaching.

You are not the first person to suggest that to him.  Not by a long shot.
He used to hang out here:
http://forums.randi.org

> The MCV is not primarily a factor of osmotic forces but on physiological
> factors such as microcytic anemias of iron or macrocytic anemias of folate.
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> This really doesn't have anything to do with cardiology so I will end this
> topic.
Kumar - 06 Dec 2005 04:01 GMT
> You are not the first person to suggest that to him.  Not by a long shot.
> He used to hang out here:
> http://forums.randi.org

Somewhere at pubmed it was mentioned(I just remember);

One who can't do or don't want to do, should not stop other doing.

Backbighting is a bad habit. Someone may feel their children as
problem.....

Think about this;
http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?p=65693#post65693
HCN - 07 Dec 2005 00:49 GMT
> > You are not the first person to suggest that to him.  Not by a long shot.
> > He used to hang out here:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Backbighting is a bad habit. Someone may feel their children as
> problem.....

Suggesting that you familiarize yourself with the science by reading basic
high school textbooks is not backbiting.  Some on JREF have expressed
concern over your health.  Though they will feel better that you are well,
despite you leaving.

> Think about this;
> http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?p=65693#post65693
kumar - 07 Dec 2005 03:29 GMT
While persuing any discussions suitable, it is always better to refresh
and match the fax tones. One may have some broadview or some dynamic
thought on any aspect but non-technical in specialist sense. There can
be some wrinkles and pendancies in any current understading. All can
have in-built natural power to understand anything logically.Anyone can
provoke some thoughts on these as I provoked with reasoning (insulin
requirement can be less on getting DN due to decreased excretion of
insulin--a known concept in science) that, there may be a chance of
urinary loss of insulin in diabetes due to polyuria resulting into
hyperglycemia instead due to so thought as IR.

I myself left because of their prolonged useless and this and that type
of talks during serious discussions, playing games in discussions and
undue contradictions about any mass existing knowledge. Over and above,
I intened to help unduely someone in difficult condition also who
influenced my heart, but that was also taken otherwise. So I hought
better to leave at least for some time.

Furthur, assuming much by science people is not good habit. :D

> > > You are not the first person to suggest that to him.  Not by a long
> shot.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> > Think about this;
> > http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?p=65693#post65693
 
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