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Medical Forum / General / General / December 2005

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Negotiate your medical bills?

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Steve - 05 Dec 2005 00:41 GMT
Excerpts from http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113244677200102388.html 

As consumers carry a bigger share of rising medical expenses, more
people are finding themselves having to negotiate the cost of their
care. Some are negotiating based on financial need. Others are asking
for discounts in exchange for the promise of payment, often by
agreeing to pay cash upfront.  

Negotiating can work because it plays at the heart of a major problem
in the medical world - billions of dollars in medical bills go unpaid
each year. Medical providers are therefore amenable to working with
patients, even if it means accepting less than full price.  

If you're getting ready for a costly medical procedure, you want to
start off by asking if you can get a discount in exchange for a
guarantee of payment. Medical providers often would rather have a
reduced amount in hand than spend a bundle trying to track down bad
debts.

In fact, a major reason that medical providers offer deals to
insurance companies is because they pay the bills. That's a discount
everybody should start asking for.

=============================

He trusted neither of them as far as he could spit,
and he was a poor spitter,
lacking both distance and control.

...P.G. Wodehouse
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 05 Dec 2005 01:17 GMT
> Excerpts from http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113244677200102388.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> insurance companies is because they pay the bills. That's a discount
> everybody should start asking for.

COMMENT:

Yep. I know a guy who got 50% off the price of use of a surgical center
for an elective procedure, by getting bids, and paying them several
days before, with a check. He saved nearly $6000  that way, and had the
same surgeon he would otherwise have had, but merely a different
anesthesiologist and recovery suite.

Of course, you have to have the time and energy and money to shop
around, so it's not too helpful if you just had a motorcycle crash. AND
it only works with businesses of a certain smaller size.  Big hospitals
and lab chains and such won't have anybody interested enough to make
such "irregular deals", because they're not operated by the owners.
However, if you get to the owners of somewhat smaller medical
providers, if you have cash-in-hand you can almost always find somebody
willing to give you a really substantial discount. 30% cash up front
discount is easy to find and 50% is not all unheard of in a dog-eat-dog
competitive markets like dentistry.

And if you pay in *currency*, say $100 bills, you can sometimes do even
better that. But that's another story.   :)

SBH
Steve - 05 Dec 2005 20:16 GMT
And here's where the US could be headed -

Excerpts from http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113373075798913517.html 
In China, patients are routinely denied care if they cannot come up
with the money to pay for it in advance - even in emergencies.  

Fewer than one-third of China's 1.3 billion people have health
insurance. More than half of all health spending is out of pocket.  

42% of people who checked out of hospitals discharged themselves,
mainly because they had run out of money. 30% of children who die end
their lives at home because their families can't afford hospital care.

According to hospital regulations, once patients owe more than $250,
the doctor must issue a warning and take responsibility for getting
the money. Usually patients pay in cash. Credit cards aren't widely
used in China.

The strain of health-care costs is so severe it is plunging growing
numbers of people back into the poverty from which they so recently
escaped. Medical horror stories have become a staple of Chinese state
newspapers and investigative television shows.

=============================

He trusted neither of them as far as he could spit,
and he was a poor spitter,
lacking both distance and control.

...P.G. Wodehouse
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 05 Dec 2005 22:11 GMT
> And here's where the US could be headed -

COMMENT:

What you decribe is where all countries "could" be headed. Though some
part of Canada is unique inasmuch as not only do people queue up for
various medical procedures, but it's actually illegal in many places
for them to "jump the line" by paying cash. That makes everybody in
line feel bad, you see. Thus, the envious force those with money to
endure, or else leave the country. Let them eat cake is replaced by
"let them go somewhere else."

The Candadian Supreme Court decision on this makes fascinating reading.
Basically it comes down to the idea of whose basic rights are being
violated: the relatively wealthy people forbidden by law to buy what
they need or want; OR the less wealthy people who have to watch them do
it, without being able to do it themselves. Can't please both. I myself
think the entire argument is unbelievably pernicious. Apparently, so
does the the rest of the world. The court arguments include some
synopses of health care systems elsewhere in the developed world, and
in all of them it's apparently easier to simply buy medical care out of
pocket than it is in Canada.

http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/rec/html/2005scc035.wpd.html
R. Denham - 05 Dec 2005 22:15 GMT
> > And here's where the US could be headed -
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> various medical procedures, but it's actually illegal in many places
> for them to "jump the line" by paying cash.

Thank God and Bush that the USA is so much better!  What a paradise!
Did you know that in Canada, you can't even take out a second mortgage to
pay your hospital bill?
And you can't even go bankrupt if you're unable to pay those massive health
care bills either!

How un-American!

<entire subject plonked>  I'm sick of uninformed and ignorant American
f.ck-heads spewing their half cocked bull sh.t about health care when all
most of them are armed with is HMO propaganda that's been poured into their
head like so much diarrhoea through a funnel.

These conversations are f.cking pointless.

sh.t, Sbharris doesn't even look after living patients and that other moron
who thinks he knows everything turned out to be a bloody hospital Janitor
from the 3rd world!

Bye Bye, idiots.  Have a nice life.
hald - 05 Dec 2005 22:22 GMT
"R. Denham" <r.denham_mail@shaw.ca> wrote in message >
> > > And here's where the US could be headed -
> >
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Bye Bye, idiots.  Have a nice life.

If things aren't done elsewhere the way their done in the USA, Americans
become confused because most of them are too f.cking stupid to understand
concepts other than their own.

That's mainly because most of them haven't left their own back yard and are
completely ignorant of anything that's beyond their own noses.  They have
serious problems which stem from trying to fit square blocks into round
holes.
Robert - 06 Dec 2005 08:27 GMT
> "R. Denham" <r.denham_mail@shaw.ca> wrote in message >
> > > > And here's where the US could be headed -
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> serious problems which stem from trying to fit square blocks into round
> holes.

Quite the opposite as most Canadians think they are Americans.
Canadians have such an inferiority complex.
Bishop Abbot - 06 Dec 2005 15:08 GMT
ROBERT THE THIRD WORLD JANITOR!!!  HEALTH CARE EXPERT!!!

BWWWWWWAAAAAHHHHHHHAAAAAHHHHHHAAAA!!!  ROTFLMAO!!!
notritenoteri - 06 Dec 2005 14:10 GMT
Please don't be so forthright in your assesment of certain Americans they
are not all like that. Remeber they are the people that recite the oath of
allegiance, sing their national anthem , pray to jesus ,and then go out and
murder one another at the rate of about 400 a week.

> "R. Denham" <r.denham_mail@shaw.ca> wrote in message >
>> > > And here's where the US could be headed -
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> serious problems which stem from trying to fit square blocks into round
> holes.
Robert - 05 Dec 2005 22:35 GMT
> > > And here's where the US could be headed -
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Did you know that in Canada, you can't even take out a second mortgage to
> pay your hospital bill?

The government cuts costs by leting people die waiting.
It does save the person a lot of money by dying and his mortgage is then no
longer a problem in Canada.

> And you can't even go bankrupt if you're unable to pay those massive health
> care bills either!

You mean the government doesn't go bankrupt paying for that free healthcare.
It's free remember. Oh wait I forgot the government taxes have to be paid in
which healthcare is included.

> How un-American!
>
> <entire subject plonked>  I'm sick of uninformed and ignorant

The Canadian Supreme Court is uninformed and ignorant?

American
> f.ck-heads spewing their half cocked bull sh.t about health care when all
> most of them are armed with is HMO propaganda that's been poured into their
> head like so much diarrhoea through a funnel.

Why depend on HMO when you can live off of the government.

> These conversations are f.cking pointless.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Bye Bye, idiots.  Have a nice life.

Why the anger?
notritenoteri - 06 Dec 2005 18:03 GMT
Robert you should look in the mirror ans see the sh.t on your lips. Nothing
is free.  If you are stupid enough, which appears to be the case  and think
healthcare is free you really aren't even equipped to be a janitor.  How do
you manage to figure out which end of the mop goes on  the flooor?
BTW I'm up for a new pacemaker #2, the defib kind. Not a cent comes directly
out of my pocket!

>> > > And here's where the US could be headed -
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>
> Why the anger?
Robert - 06 Dec 2005 21:17 GMT
> Robert you should look in the mirror ans see the sh.t on your lips. Nothing
> is free.  If you are stupid enough, which appears to be the case  and think
> healthcare is free you really aren't even equipped to be a janitor.  How do
> you manage to figure out which end of the mop goes on  the flooor?
> BTW I'm up for a new pacemaker #2, the defib kind. Not a cent comes directly
> out of my pocket!

LOL. That is my point. Not a cent comes directly out of your pocket shows
you how out of touch you are.
Al Pearson - 06 Dec 2005 21:27 GMT
The Goofy Janitor is an expert on everything!!!

Bbwwwaaahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!  ROTFLMAO!!!!

Back to the mop Roberto!   Why aren't you at work??

>That is my point. Not a cent comes directly out of your pocket shows
>you how out of touch you are.
notritenoteri - 06 Dec 2005 22:31 GMT
The only point you have is on the top of your head or maybe your pencil
dick. I pay taxes, a lot of taxes.I've ponied up the best part of a million
dollars over the years. Now I'm getting someof it back but I'm happy to
share with others unlike greedy MFs like you. How do you like spending 6
billion a month on killing sand coons?

>> Robert you should look in the mirror ans see the sh.t on your lips.
> Nothing
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> LOL. That is my point. Not a cent comes directly out of your pocket shows
> you how out of touch you are.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 06 Dec 2005 01:11 GMT
> <entire subject plonked>  I'm sick of uninformed and ignorant American
> f.ck-heads spewing their half cocked bull sh.t about health care when all
> most of them are armed with is HMO propaganda that's been poured into their
> head like so much diarrhoea through a funnel.
>
> These conversations are f.cking pointless.

Well, I see you can swear a lot. But I posted the supreme court's
decision, and unlike you, I've actually read it.  It's quite thorough,
and quite chilling in the issues it brings up.  If you actually read it
youself, you actually will be long way toward being informed on this
subject. To do better, you'd have to actually know something about
medicine, too.

> sh.t, Sbharris doesn't even look after living patients and that other moron
> who thinks he knows everything turned out to be a bloody hospital Janitor
> from the 3rd world!

I have many living patients, including several who'd be dead, dead,
dead if they'd had their problems in Canada.

> Bye Bye, idiots.  Have a nice life.

You, too. You can't argue the facts, so off you go, calling others
ignorant. What a maroon.

SBH
fresh~horses - 06 Dec 2005 01:24 GMT
And several who were dead dead dead before you met met met.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 06 Dec 2005 22:17 GMT
> And several who were dead dead dead before you met met met.

You may know that gross pathologists do occasionally get sued for
malpractice. The claim that they don't have any patients per se,
doesn't help.

In any case, some of my dead patients were only merely dead. They
weren't yet really most SINCERELY dead.

--The Coroner of Oz
notritenoteri - 06 Dec 2005 22:35 GMT
We had a forensic patholigist inTOronto that fuckedup royally on a great
number of cases name was smith I think a friend of yours perhaps.
Fortunately we don't have the death penalty unlike some states and
federations.
Tell us, how do you tell merely dead from sincerely dead? MAybe you do a
conversion Monty Python and the "bring out your dead skit" whereby a slight
tap of a billy coverts not quite dead to really dead?

>> And several who were dead dead dead before you met met met.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> --The Coroner of Oz
Kurt Ullman - 06 Dec 2005 23:48 GMT
>In any case, some of my dead patients were only merely dead. They
>weren't yet really most SINCERELY dead.
>
>--The Coroner of Oz

It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead.
There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly
dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's
usually only one thing you can do....
'Go through his clothes and look for loose change.

   ----Miracle Max `

--
    A good friend will come and bail you out of jail.
A TRUE friend will be sitting beside you saying "Damn! That was fun".
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 07 Dec 2005 02:25 GMT
> >In any case, some of my dead patients were only merely dead. They
> >weren't yet really most SINCERELY dead.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>     ----Miracle Max `

You gotta love Billy Crystal. And, basically, he has it right. Of
course the trick is in telling where in that process you are, and
there's no simple answer to that, at least in the early phases. Any
more than there's an answer to how much information can be eventually
recovered from your toasted hard disk drive. So you save it.

The alternative, which is pretending to yourself that the data all went
to Heaven, or was saved by the Almighty, so that you're free to bury or
burn the thing without regret, seems rather unwise. If I told you that
deity had backed up the data in your desktop computer, free of charge,
you'd call me the biggest fool in the world. But many people believe
that about the data in their brains. Go figure.

And no, there's no reason to think the data gets erased from your brain
the moment some doctor shows up and pronounces you legally dead. Being
pronouced legally dead by a doctor is like being prounounced married by
a priest or justice. It's a change in your legal and social status,
that's all. It hasn't got much to do with physical and biological
reality.

SBH
notritenoteri - 06 Dec 2005 18:05 GMT
HOw many of your patients have been buried within a week of your tender
ministrations I wonder?  Stick to your trade boy. The SCC ruling means f.ck 
all if the people don't want it to. THe fact you have read it means even
less.

>> <entire subject plonked>  I'm sick of uninformed and ignorant American
>> f.ck-heads spewing their half cocked bull sh.t about health care when all
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> SBH
fresh~horses - 05 Dec 2005 22:36 GMT
> > And here's where the US could be headed -
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/rec/html/2005scc035.wpd.html

Quebec has optional private health care and has for some years. This
was a physician who wanted to open a private clinic, and get public
funds to operate it (oh these shy entrepreneurs)  finding and using a
patient as his wedge. If this physician wanted to he could have triaged
his patient to the top of his surgery list. All physicians and surgeons
have surgery lists. He did not move his suffering patient up. It suited
his purpose to torture this patient (First Do No Harm) in order to get
his way.

In any event, Quebec law is unique to Quebec.

Regarding the original post about negotiating one's medical bills, why
would I need to negotiate my medical bills?  They are paid for by my
taxes, my quarterly healthcare premium, and if I have a job with
healthcare benefits, anything not covered by universal healthcare and
provincial healthcare would be covered by my private work insurance.
Happy Dog - 05 Dec 2005 23:19 GMT
"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com>

> Regarding the original post about negotiating one's medical bills, why
> would I need to negotiate my medical bills?  They are paid for by my
> taxes,

Correction:  By other people's taxes.

> my quarterly healthcare premium, and if I have a job

Which you don't.  At least, not one that isn't paid for by the Government.

moo
Justin Case - 06 Dec 2005 01:04 GMT
> > > And here's where the US could be headed -
> >
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> In any event, Quebec law is unique to Quebec.

Yes, but the principle will apply right across Canada if a similar case is
litigated in a common law jurisdiction all the way back to the SCC. Problem
is, in most cases it would be quicker and cheaper to pay for the procedure
yourself in the US or India than to litigate.
fresh~horses - 06 Dec 2005 01:23 GMT
> > > > And here's where the US could be headed -
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> is, in most cases it would be quicker and cheaper to pay for the procedure
> yourself in the US or India than to litigate.

Not only that, the privileged few of the Supreme Court won't risk their
careers on another sh.t-kicking like the one they this time.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 06 Dec 2005 01:30 GMT
> > > And here's where the US could be headed -
> >
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> > in all of them it's apparently easier to simply buy medical care out of
> > pocket than it is in Canada.

> > http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/rec/html/2005scc035.wpd.html
>
> Quebec has optional private health care and has for some years.

That is not what the court decision says, and they quote the law of
Quebec which prohibits it. You can read it yourself above. So do show
your cite. Mine is the supreme court decision which is very well
referenced.

>This
> was a physician who wanted to open a private clinic, and get public
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> his purpose to torture this patient (First Do No Harm) in order to get
> his way.

Yes, the physician wanted to run a private clinic and get public funds
for home health services he wanted to deliver (note, heart and hip
surgery are not home health). The idea is not unlike a private school
which accepts students with government scholarships. Why the very idea!
It does sound immoral, doesn't it?

However, I find no evidence whatsoever that the doctor in question was
a surgeon and certainly not the specific surgeon(s) who made the other
appelant wait for heart and hip surgeries. I quote:

======================================================

5                                   The validity of the prohibition is
contested by the appellants, George Zeliotis and Jacques Chaoulli.
Over the years, Mr. Zeliotis has experienced a number of health
problems and has used medical services that were available in the
public system, including heart surgery and a number of operations on
his hip.  The difficulties he encountered prompted him to speak out
against waiting times in the public health care system.  Mr. Chaoulli
is a physician who has tried unsuccessfully to have his
home-delivered medical activities recognized and to obtain a licence
to operate an independent private hospital.  Mr. Zeliotis and Mr.
Chaoulli joined forces to apply to the court by way of motion for a
declaration that s. 15 HEIA and s. 11 HOIA are unconstitutional and
invalid.  Mr. Chaoulli argues, first, that the prohibition is within
the federal government's legislative jurisdiction in relation to
criminal law and, second, that the prohibition violates the rights to
life and to personal security, inviolability and freedom protected by
s. 1 of the Quebec Charter and ss. 7, 12 and 15 of the Canadian
Charter.  The respondents contested the motion both in the Superior
Court and in the Court of Appeal.
==================================================

> In any event, Quebec law is unique to Quebec.

So?  Similar stuff happens in many Canadian provinces, and they are
detailed in the text. I suggest a quick read.

> Regarding the original post about negotiating one's medical bills, why
> would I need to negotiate my medical bills?

Because you might want something other than the one-size-fits all
medical care which your government-paid doctor and your government-paid
hospitals are willing to offer you. Use your imagination. It could
happen. Believe it.

SBH
fresh~horses - 06 Dec 2005 01:51 GMT
> > > > And here's where the US could be headed -
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> your cite. Mine is the supreme court decision which is very well
> referenced.

Quebec has had private hip surgery clinics (among others) for some
time.

The law in Canada says there will not be private for profit clinics. It
hasn't stopped physicians from setting them up.

> >This
> > was a physician who wanted to open a private clinic, and get public
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> for home health services he wanted to deliver (note, heart and hip
> surgery are not home health).

The idea is not unlike a private school
> which accepts students with government scholarships. Why the very idea!
>  It does sound immoral, doesn't it?

The dear little things; will we give them more when they hold their
bowls up?

Gaaaw.....you are SO gullible.

> However, I find no evidence whatsoever that the doctor in question was
> a surgeon and certainly not the specific surgeon(s) who made the other
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> home-delivered medical activities recognized and to obtain a licence
> to operate an independent private hospital.

That latter is just coincidental of course. This is Chaoulli's
deposition written by his lawyers. Of course lawyers don't spin the
truth when they speak on their client's behalf.

Mr. Zeliotis and Mr.
> Chaoulli joined forces to apply to the court by way of motion for a
> declaration that s. 15 HEIA and s. 11 HOIA are unconstitutional and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Court and in the Court of Appeal.
> ==================================================

Money talks. Who's listening?

> > In any event, Quebec law is unique to Quebec.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> SBH

I have a vague idea what you're talking about; unfortunately, you
don't. Age shall not wither contrivance--if it's useful.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 06 Dec 2005 02:50 GMT
> > >This
> > > was a physician who wanted to open a private clinic, and get public
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > > his purpose to torture this patient (First Do No Harm) in order to get
> > > his way.

To which I answered:

> > Yes, the physician wanted to run a private clinic and get public funds
> > for home health services he wanted to deliver (note, heart and hip
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> > home-delivered medical activities recognized and to obtain a licence
> > to operate an independent private hospital.

To which the answer was:

> That latter is just coincidental of course. This is Chaoulli's
> deposition written by his lawyers. Of course lawyers don't spin the
> truth when they speak on their client's behalf.

COMMENT:

Damnit, Chaulli is a family doctor, NOT a surgeon. He made his money at
private housecalls, and there is absolutely NO evidence that he had
ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Zeliotis suffering surgical waiting
times. Like I said. Would you please do some MINIMAL research before
just posting reflexive negative comments based on your fairytale
Marxist view of reality?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/23/news/doc.php

> Money talks. Who's listening?

It doesn't look like either of plaintiffs is rich. If I can trust what
the New York Times says (a dubious proposition, I know). In any case,
I'm sorry if the facts of this case don't fit your philosophy about how
the world works. But if you want to argue that they are not as I say,
post your own cites. I've been doing that all along, and youv'e just
been blathering without a shred of backup. And you've been continuously
wrong.

SBH
fresh~horses - 06 Dec 2005 03:16 GMT
I don't follow or practise, or give credence to, any male-defined
ideology.

http://www.healthcoalition.ca/romanow-charest.pdf
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 06 Dec 2005 04:07 GMT
> I don't follow or practise, or give credence to, any male-defined
> ideology.
>
> http://www.healthcoalition.ca/romanow-charest.pdf

Well, that's narrow-minded of you. Bigot.
fresh~horses - 06 Dec 2005 05:00 GMT
> > I don't follow or practise, or give credence to, any male-defined
> > ideology.
> >
> > http://www.healthcoalition.ca/romanow-charest.pdf
>
> Well, that's narrow-minded of you. Bigot.

Not Christianity, nor Libertarianism, nor Marxism; not
Marxist-Leninist, not Trotskyite nor Jungian, not Buddist. Not Janism.
Not Scientology or Judaism nor Taoism or Confusianism nor Islam.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Orders of the Dreamed: George Nelson on Cree and Northern Ojibwa
Religion and Myth, 1823 (Manitoba Studies in Native History III)
(Paperback)
by Jennifer S. H. Brown, Robert Brightman

The Story of Sedna
http://www.hvgb.net/~sedna/story.html

Cree Culture and History
http://www.native-languages.org/cree_culture.htm

The Medicine Wheel
http://www.turtleisland.org/front/_front.htm
David Wright - 06 Dec 2005 05:08 GMT
>> > I don't follow or practise, or give credence to, any male-defined
>> > ideology.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Marxist-Leninist, not Trotskyite nor Jungian, not Buddist. Not Janism.
>Not Scientology or Judaism nor Taoism or Confusianism nor Islam.

And one of the key tenets of Taoism is "keep to the female."  Guess
you wouldn't want to get anywhere near THAT.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
fresh~horses - 06 Dec 2005 05:08 GMT
> > I don't follow or practise, or give credence to, any male-defined
> > ideology.
> >
> > http://www.healthcoalition.ca/romanow-charest.pdf
>
> Well, that's narrow-minded of you. Bigot.

http://www.rcmp.ca/pdfs/spiritgde.pdf
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 06 Dec 2005 02:55 GMT
> > > Quebec has optional private health care and has for some years.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> The law in Canada says there will not be private for profit clinics. It
> hasn't stopped physicians from setting them up.

COMMENT:

If these are charity centers, I don't see how they help your argument.
If physicans set them up for profit and accept fees (which is generally
what we mean by "private health care") then they are fined. As Chauolli
was.

SBH

SBH
fresh~horses - 06 Dec 2005 06:26 GMT
> > > > Quebec has optional private health care and has for some years.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> SBH

Steve. Sir:

I wonder why you have such a interest in Canada's healthcare. After
all, what it is or is not won't affect your bank account. Will it?

Genuflectionately,

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051205.wxelectissues1205/BN
Story/specialDecision2006/

Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 06 Dec 2005 07:04 GMT
> Steve. Sir:
>
> I wonder why you have such a interest in Canada's healthcare. After
> all, what it is or is not won't affect your bank account. Will it?

No. 99.999+% of my web writing regards things I have no financial
interest in. Had I had the sincere interest in things financial that
I've had in science for all my life, I think I'd be a very rich man by
now, indeed.  Alas.  But you have to follow your bliss.

SBH
Howard McCollister - 06 Dec 2005 07:51 GMT
>> > > > Quebec has optional private health care and has for some years.
>> > >
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Genuflectionately,
/

Well, I take it that ends round 1...?

I'm afraid I have to score it rather decisively in favor of Dr. Harris.
Whatever his interest in the endpoint of the argument, his dispassionate
review of the actual facts as they were reported in this situation does not
appear to have been very well countered by you or your foul-mouthed corner
man.

I share Steve's interest in the Canadian health care system. In my case, it
actually does affect my bank account because my proximity to the Canadian
border mean I actually get a Canadian down here every so often to buy his or
her health care and get around surgical waiting times. Hernia repairs seem
to be all the rage. And we do offer cash discounts, I'm told.

Beyond that very occasional patient, my interest is primarily centered on
the persistently annoying and clearly undeserved self-righteousness that so
often accompanies any Canadian expressing his/her opinion on the US health
system. This whole argument in this thread was illustrative of the tendency
for those arguments to be centered around emotion vs fact.

HMc
Torramce - 06 Dec 2005 15:01 GMT
>I'm afraid I have to score it rather decisively in favor of Dr. Harris.
>Whatever his interest in the endpoint of the argument, his dispassionate
>review of the actual facts as they were reported i

harris is a factless boob.
Robert - 06 Dec 2005 21:23 GMT
> >I'm afraid I have to score it rather decisively in favor of Dr. Harris.
> >Whatever his interest in the endpoint of the argument, his dispassionate
> >review of the actual facts as they were reported i
>
> harris is a factless boob.

He cited the Canadian Supreme Court.
fresh~horses - 06 Dec 2005 16:06 GMT
> >> > > > Quebec has optional private health care and has for some years.
> >> > >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> appear to have been very well countered by you or your foul-mouthed corner
> man.

> I share Steve's interest in the Canadian health care system. In my case, it
> actually does affect my bank account because my proximity to the Canadian
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> HMc

Calling me a bigot and swearing at me hardly seem unemotional.

I was speaking to  Steve. I don't know who else showed up nor care. As
to your amusing idea of conversation as something to be scored: I see a
CABG in your future Howard.

I express my opinion about healthcare but I don't recall, apart from
posting primarily American articles by American authors, expressing
opinion about the American system. I discuss the issue of healthcare
from the perspective of a consumer. I wouldn't dream of trying to
analyze another country's healthcare. That is an American pastime,
going into other countries bent on remake or take.

Read the last link I gave (which Steve deleted).

Du Nord
(p.s. Do you receive communication from Doctors Without Borders?}
Howard McCollister - 06 Dec 2005 18:46 GMT
>> >> > > > Quebec has optional private health care and has for some years.
>> >> > >
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> to your amusing idea of conversation as something to be scored: I see a
> CABG in your future Howard.

The nice thing about the internet is that there are no private
conversations. Otherwise you two would be conducting your endless tussles
via email or telephone. In general, I find your correspondence with Steve
amusing and I do indeed score it. I must say that his mastery and
presentation of the facts is generally quite superior. Just my opinion -
thought I'd throw it in there after all these months/years of watching you
guys, munching popcorn.

While he did call you a bigot, that response was to a response of yours
that, unlike many of your other diversionary attempts in this thread, almost
did succeed in diverting. I scored it as neutral, but I took a point off of
your score for the rather transparent attempt.

> (p.s. Do you receive communication from Doctors Without Borders?}

I do, but their approach to missionary work, while superficially noble, is
at odds with mine - I would rather teach someone to fish than to just give
him a fish.

HMc
fresh~horses - 06 Dec 2005 19:04 GMT
> >> >> > > > Quebec has optional private health care and has for some years.
> >> >> > >
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
> thought I'd throw it in there after all these months/years of watching you
> guys, munching popcorn.

I realize it's just your opinion, and I cannot change that. The facts
speak for themselves, and are different than what Steve thought. But
that's not the point, for me anyway.I learn something everytime Steve
and I "tussle." even though I'm not up to the high ozone of the
gamesmanship you (and he) are capable of. Still I try.

> While he did call you a bigot, that response was to a response of yours
> that, unlike many of your other diversionary attempts in this thread, almost
> did succeed in diverting. I scored it as neutral, but I took a point off of
> your score for the rather transparent attempt.

I don't know the game you speak of nor it's rules Howard.

> > (p.s. Do you receive communication from Doctors Without Borders?}
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> HMc

Apologies for that then.
Howard McCollister - 07 Dec 2005 04:04 GMT
>> > (p.s. Do you receive communication from Doctors Without Borders?}
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Apologies for that then.

I've done it both ways over these many years. The frustrations and
heartbreak of a job (many jobs) left undone as you boarded a plane back to
the US was significant. Increasing the time spent made no headway against
that because the crushing need just has no endpoint. Far more satisfying,
for me and the rest of our little team, has been creating other things that
go on after you leave - the literacy projects, the well-drilling projects,
the laparoscopy courses for Haitian surgery residents (complete with goat
lab), the $1 million (donated $$, equipment and labor) hospital expansion of
the operating rooms we completed three years ago. This year we're completing
another new two story wing on the hospital for a pediatric ward and clinic
as well as expansion of the lab and X-ray (my surgical partner is working
hard on scoring a CT scanner - he's elbow deep in a GE grant application as
we speak). We're installing a telepathology and teleradiology system in
February. Earlier this year, we got funding for ongoing bandwidth on the
satellite system (which we funded and installed) and hope to extend our new
wireless network to the community. Schools, orphanages, all that stuff. My
fishing reference...I've done it both ways.

HMc
fresh~horses - 27 Dec 2005 15:43 GMT
Perhaps of interest:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The whole idea was that we weren't just going to operate and then
leave, but let's show them how we do these things. It's the whole
expression that you can teach a man to fish rather than giving him
fish," says Dr. Adamson."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051227/HOPERATI
ON27/TPHealth/


Serving forgotten children
Russian orphans with facial deformities get help from visiting Western
doctors

By JERED STUFFCO

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 Page A17

Special to The Globe and Mail

Peter Adamson was performing facial reconstruction on an orphan in a
Russian hospital when the unspeakable happened -- the respirator that
was keeping his young patient breathing stopped working.

Instead of panicking, the Russian doctor who was assisting Dr. Adamson
reacted calmly by unplugging the machine and grabbing a plastic tube.

"He kept the kid alive for 20 minutes by blowing in the tube," recalls
Dr. Adamson, surrounded by pieces of Innu art in his plush offices in
downtown Toronto.

And what if the Russian doctor had a pair of faulty lungs?

"The child would have died. He said the machine was tired and needed a
rest . . . it had overheated."

In Toronto, Dr. Adamson has run a successful plastic surgery clinic
since 1981. He's considered a leader in nose jobs, face lifts and Botox
treatment. His clients pay him thousands of dollars to look beautiful.

But in recent years he has made an annual journey to Russia, where he
operates on penniless orphans in under-equipped operating rooms.

Such is the dichotomy of the Face To Face Mission Project, which sees a
team of Western surgeons fly to the Bonum Centre in Yekaterinburg,
Russia, to operate on the area's poorest and most vulnerable --
forgotten children born with facial deformities who are often called
"unadoptable."

Born with cleft palets, deformed ears and wide-set eyes, many of these
kids stand no chance of ever being adopted.

"They use the word orphan a little differently in Russia than we do in
the West," notes Dr. Adamson, a silver-haired man who smiles
mid-sentence and speaks in warm tones.

Since the project's inception in 1992, the teams have operated on more
than 600 children and offered consultations to about 1,000 kids.
Spearheaded by the American Academy of Facial Plastic and
Reconstructive Surgery (AAFPRS), the Face to Face Missions have helped
many of the orphans find homes.

"So, there has been a real impact," says Dr. Adamson, a former
president and board member of the AAFPRS.

Along with offering medical service to the children, another integral
aspect of the Face To Face Mission is to provide the region's doctors,
who are often starved of the latest in medical advances, with new
techniques and improved technologies.

"The whole idea was that we weren't just going to operate and then
leave, but let's show them how we do these things. It's the whole
expression that you can teach a man to fish rather than giving him
fish," says Dr. Adamson.

When the Berlin Wall fell, the Frank Adoption Agency -- a North
Carolina-based organization which had a mandate of helping Eastern Bloc
orphans find homes -- contacted the AAFPRS about the plight of these
Russian orphans.

And with such high numbers of orphans with facial deformities at the
Bonum Centre -- which Dr. Adamson describes as a massive children's
hospital attached to a rehabilitation centre and an orphanage -- the
doctors began making their annual trek.

While recent trips have focused on problems like microtia -- deformed
ears -- and other birth defects like cranial-facial syndromes which
create large gaps between a child's eyes, the most recent trek -- which
took place in October -- saw the eight-plus squad of doctors focus on
retinopathy of the premature, an affliction that causes blindness in
premature babies.

"The big thing for me, I can magnify our impact by getting other
surgeons who can operate in different areas," Dr. Adamson says. "So,
it's not about what I can do, I'm really being a facilitator [and]
saying, 'We need some burn specialists. We need some eye specialists.'
"

One of the specialists who made the trek was Peter Kertes, a
vitreo-retinal surgeon and associate professor of ophthalmology based
at Sunnybrook and Women's College Health Sciences Centre in Toronto.

"He actually taught them how to diagnose these children," says Dr.
Adamson, who added that Dr. Kertes also spent considerable effort
lecturing on prevention and treatment.

"There are going to be many, many children over there -- maybe even
hundreds of children -- who may well not go blind. So the impact is
really significant."

While retinopathy of the premature is a rare and relatively
easy-to-treat condition in Canada, Dr. Kertes says the problem is still
rampant in many parts of Russia.

"There were a lot of kids going blind prematurely, and the doctors
didn't have the wherewithal to deal with it. They didn't really know
how to screen these babies.

"I was overwhelmed to see how many of these toddlers were blind. It was
very sad. You just don't see that," in Canada, says Dr. Kertes.

The proper development of the eye, which usually isn't complete until
four weeks after birth, is dependent upon the proliferation of blood
vessels on the interior of the retina. However, in premature babies,
the blood vessels sometimes develop in the wrong areas of the retina.

Scar tissue also develops, and together this growth can cause the
retina to detach itself, causing blindness.

Dr. Kertes recalls inspecting one infant who desperately required the
hour-long vitrectomy surgery needed to fix the problem, but the Russian
anesthesiologist expressed concern about putting the child unconscious
for longer than 10 minutes.

"It was back and forth and back and forth, and he finally acquiesced,
and it took an hour [to perform the operation]. I'm hoping that they
come to understand what constitutes adequate treatment."

Indeed, Dr. Adamson believes medical conditions are improving.

"First of all, the equipment they have there now isn't the greatest,
but they have identified certain pieces of equipment that they'd like
to get, particularly when they see what we bring over. And there are
some areas, ironically, where they have some great equipment, and it's
sitting next to something that's 50 years old, and you think, 'My
heavens, where did that come from?' "

Plus, the surgeons in Russia -- despite a lack of new Western ideas --
are an exceptional lot, says Dr. Adamson.

"In the surgical trade, we'd say a lot of these guys are 'great
cutters,' but they [haven't been] exposed to Western ideas. That's what
we brought. We brought Western ideas and thinking, because they'd been
very parochial in their international thinking."

Besides, the Russian surgeons aren't the only ones who benefit from the
experience, says Dr. Adamson.

"I think most of us go into medicine because you care about people and
you want to help people.

"And that's what medicine is about. It's a caring profession. Although
my work here is cosmetic surgery -- and I love the cosmetic surgery
that I do -- this is always something that's been important to me, to
experience this different side of medicine. And it's wonderful."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

> >> > (p.s. Do you receive communication from Doctors Without Borders?}
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> HMc
Howard McCollister - 27 Dec 2005 16:19 GMT
> Perhaps of interest:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> expression that you can teach a man to fish rather than giving him
> fish," says Dr. Adamson."

Yes, exactly.

HMc
Robert - 06 Dec 2005 21:24 GMT
> > >> > > > Quebec has optional private health care and has for some years.
> > >> > >
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> Du Nord
> (p.s. Do you receive communication from Doctors Without Borders?}

Bullshit.
Robert - 06 Dec 2005 08:32 GMT
> > > > > Quebec has optional private health care and has for some years.
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Genuflectionately,

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051205.wxelectissues1205/BN
Story/specialDecision2006/


I wonder why you have such an interest in US healthcare to flood this NG and
others with your Canadian spin on US healthcare.
notritenoteri - 06 Dec 2005 14:06 GMT
You seem to be a little confused. Wealthy and not so wealthy Canadians can
jump the queue at any time they need only to leave the country to do it. One
can buy a month in India at a 5 star resort for self and companion plus a
new kidney for about $20k US. No big deal.
What you don't understand about the SCC ruling is that if necessary it can
be overridden by parliament through the use of the not withstanding clause
of our charter of rights.  The SCC ruling is not the final arbiter of the
problem.
Besides all sorts of medical care is available out of pocket as you put it.
I can buy a new hip, cataract surgery, hernia repairs, MRIs etc  with
minimum problem only cost.
MAybe you should concentrate on solving the mess that USA has not only in
the healthcare field but international relations too?
>> And here's where the US could be headed -
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/rec/html/2005scc035.wpd.html
Wayne George - 06 Dec 2005 14:42 GMT
JEezus Not-rtight-in-da-head...I didn't know you were so old and in bad
shape..
I can see now why you are so upset about Indians and wishing you was one...
Really though..were not those kinds of "Indians" cause we're not from
there...!!!
But most of my family have gone there and had successful results...and I
have to THANK GOOD FOLKS like you...mere words fail to show my gratitude to
you and yours.
WG
===

> You seem to be a little confused. Wealthy and not so wealthy Canadians can
> jump the queue at any time they need only to leave the country to do it.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> MAybe you should concentrate on solving the mess that USA has not only in
> the healthcare field but international relations too?
 
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