Medical Forum / General / General / December 2005
Conventional Medicines-Can we become resistant?
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kumar - 04 Dec 2005 04:15 GMT Helo,
Effects from Natural and unnantural substances to us/our body are two type of substance which is commonly thought. Natural means here: "those substances of which we have inherent sense of right and wrong" not naturally produced or in natural form.
Since our evolution till today, our body have evolved or become habitual to many substances to which it can properly recognize, easily and suitably process. So such substances can be treated as natural to our body even thought they are in natural form or not. So "old is gold" is said.
Many modern food, modern environment in big cities and conventional modern medicines are newly developed which can be in some unnatural form to us not common and persistant to our body and to which we are yet not evolved or become habitual.
Acoordingly, those substances can cause a stranger, antigenic or foriegn body type effect to our body which can be an unnatural, confused, shocking, adverse or toxic. Now my questions are as under:-
1. Will such effect from abobe mentioned newly developed modern and unnatural substances not be a unnatural, confused, shocking, adverse or toxic effect to our body?
2. If yes, Will our body not resist and become resistant to these unnatural modern substance alike bacterias become resitant to antibiotics?
3. If yes, can't these unnatural modern substance--conventional medicines will become innefective on us when we will become resistant to these?
Best wishes.
HCN - 05 Dec 2005 01:54 GMT > Helo, Please keep taking your insulin... listen to your daughter. Take care of yourself.
Kumar - 05 Dec 2005 02:54 GMT > > Helo, > > Please keep taking your insulin... listen to your daughter. Take care of > yourself. But insulin is a replacement hormone(own body substance) not a conventional medicine. How can it resist, I am bit doubtful?
Dr. Wayne Simon - 05 Dec 2005 06:59 GMT > Helo, > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Best wishes. Although the above post is somewhat scientifically naive, some of the principles you mention, in their own way are good questions. Tolerance, which can occur to certain medications or substances, can occur over a relatively short time period, days, weeks, month, years. I think some of the concepts you bring up, if one looks at a time frame of multiple generations, then they may have more meaning. How generations of folks exposed to long periods of ingestion say of serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or gaba ligand receptor agonists, effects those exposed and their offspring, could be of interest. We can experiment in animals that have similar receptors and much shorter life cycles.
Kumar - 05 Dec 2005 10:27 GMT > Although the above post is somewhat scientifically naive, some of the > principles you mention, in their own way are good questions. Tolerance, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > could be of interest. We can experiment in animals that have similar > receptors and much shorter life cycles. Just think about alcohol, drugs addicted people or other adictions. In initial stages even small quantity of these substances are very effective but after some time even high quantity become less effective.
Mike McWilliams - 05 Dec 2005 15:21 GMT >>Although the above post is somewhat scientifically naive, some of the >>principles you mention, in their own way are good questions. Tolerance, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > initial stages even small quantity of these substances are very > effective but after some time even high quantity become less effective. I don't know anyone who won't get drunk from 26 ounces of hard liquor
kumar - 06 Dec 2005 04:07 GMT > I don't know anyone who won't get drunk from 26 ounces of hard liquor Do you want to say that any unnatural (newly developed chenical medicines) substance to our body will not leave any effect on us in long term and defence system will not treat those substances alike strangers?
Mike McWilliams - 06 Dec 2005 16:05 GMT >>I don't know anyone who won't get drunk from 26 ounces of hard liquor > > Do you want to say that any unnatural (newly developed chenical > medicines) substance to our body will not leave any effect on us in > long term and defence system will not treat those substances alike > strangers? I'm just saying that I think tolerance only goes to a certain point.
our defence systems are not generally made to deal with small molecules.
our defence systems can only react to them if they have been trained by exposure to haptens (small molecules attached to larger ones).
most new drugs are in the category of unrecognized small molecules. most new drugs don't spontaneously form haptens (penicillin is an example of a small molecule drug treatment which can form haptens).
so no... most new drugs will not get treated like "strangers" however, the body may become accustomed to the response they elicit, and downregulate whatever signalling pathway or response pathway they activate.
think about heroin. people become so accustomed to heroin that bright light can cause "pain" because the pain threshold is being changed by overconsumption of pain killer.
think about nicotine. when you start smoking you get a little rush from your first few cigarettes. After you smoke long enough, and often enough, you get nothing but relief from a craving. but if you stop for a few days, you'll get a rush again on that first cigarette.
your body doesn't reject these things, but it does become sensitized to them temporarily, but not in an immune system relevant way. changes in gene expression for particular receptors are to blame.
Kumar - 07 Dec 2005 03:07 GMT > I'm just saying that I think tolerance only goes to a certain point. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > them temporarily, but not in an immune system relevant way. changes in > gene expression for particular receptors are to blame. How then bacteria become resistant to antibiotics? How our cells become cancerous than for which I heard that few medicines can be the cause? Environmental effects don't pass into genes, looks to be bit unclear. Do you want to say that CMs do not effect or weaken immunity?
Bryan Heit - 07 Dec 2005 14:43 GMT > How then bacteria become resistant to antibiotics? Evolution. This will not happen to individual people, as evolution requires new generations. Theoretically, humans could evolve resistance (or tolerance) to a toxic drug but this would take hundreds, if not thousands, of generations. For bacteria that is a few weeks to a few years; for humans thats tens of thousands, if not more, years.
> How our cells become > cancerous than for which I heard that few medicines can be the cause? I am unaware of any drug which is known to cause cancer. Any drug which was shown to do this would immediately be pulled off the shelves. Unless, the benefits of the drugs were shown to be better then the increased risk of cancer.
Cancer is a result of mutations within a cell which reduce it's ability to control it's division. If you accumulate enough of these mutations within a single cell, it can become cancerous. The reasons why we develop these mutations is varied - from imperfect DNA replication/repair enzymes, to certain bacterial & viral infections, to exposure to certain toxins in the environment, to exposure to radiations such as UV.
> Environmental effects don't pass into genes, looks to be bit unclear. I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Genes can respond to the environment; and from an evolutionary point of view, the environment most certantly has an impact on the genes which survive in a population.
> Do you want to say that CMs do not effect or weaken immunity? Some drugs do have an effect on immunity. Take most over-the-counter pain killers. Most of these not only kill pain, but also reduce inflammation. The reduction in inflammation (an immune response) is relatively small at the doses you should be using, but if you were to take too much you could see a pretty severe effect on your immune system.
Other drugs are designed to block the immune system. This is used in patients who've received an organ transplant (to prevent the immune system from rejecting the organ).
Still other drugs may enhance immunity, although this is debatable. Drugs such as interferons certainly activate specific immune responses, but what the whole-body effect is, is not clear.
You just cannot lump all drugs together and ask if they impact immunity. Some are designed to impact immunity, others do it by accident, and a lot of them have no effect at all.
Bryan
Kumar - 07 Dec 2005 15:53 GMT > > How then bacteria become resistant to antibiotics? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > thousands, of generations. For bacteria that is a few weeks to a few > years; for humans thats tens of thousands, if not more, years. Bryan, thanks.
When cells can become cancerous with in one generation of human beings effected by some environmental factors(as given below), why other cells can't become resistant or develop ineffectiveness/tolerance of unnatural durgs within lifespan of human being. I think I am thinking about phenotype changes not genotype:
"Cancer causes: In most individual cases of cancer, the exact cause of cancer is unknown. The causes may include increased genetic susceptibility; environmental insults, such as chemical exposure or smoking cigarettes; lifestyle factors, including diet; damage caused by infectious disease; and many more. "
> > How our cells become > > cancerous than for which I heard that few medicines can be the cause? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Unless, the benefits of the drugs were shown to be better then the > increased risk of cancer. Are drugs effects not stronger than these causes of cancer: environmental insults, such as chemical exposure or smoking cigarettes; lifestyle factors, including diet;? When these can cause cancer, how drugs can't?
> You just cannot lump all drugs together and ask if they impact immunity. > Some are designed to impact immunity, others do it by accident, and a > lot of them have no effect at all. Whether drugs not act as antigenic?
Mike McWilliams - 07 Dec 2005 16:39 GMT >>>How then bacteria become resistant to antibiotics? >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > smoking cigarettes; lifestyle factors, including diet; damage caused by > infectious disease; and many more. " When you are considering cancer, you are certainly considering a change in genotype and phenotype of particular cells within the individual. Cancer is almost uniformly due to changes in DNA, though there are a huge variety of reasons that this can happen, hence a huge variety of treatments are applicable. With cancer, deletions of regulatory proteins (receptors, secondary messenger regulators...) can result in normal messages going haywire. If any combination of damage messes with the proliferation signalling pathways, then all of the sudden, cells can begin to rapidly divide with no way of messenging them to stop.
Resistance to drugs happens through evolution, and is a function of diversity in the gene pool (all the human individuals), or through mutation of genes to confer resistance. If some common drug was suddenly discovered to cause sterility in most of the gene pool, the few individuals with natural resistance (lets say 0.1% of the population) would still reproduce, and the following generation would all be resistant to the sterility effect.
>>>How our cells become >>>cancerous than for which I heard that few medicines can be the cause? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > lifestyle factors, including diet;? When these can cause cancer, how > drugs can't? drug effects are often dramatic, but don't confuse a physiological response to a drug with the indiscriminate damage that env. insults, smoking, chem exposure result in.
Drug effects are usually dramatic because they change normal messages in the body for a periof of time, and are metabolized or excreted by the body, at which point they can no longer have an effect on the body.
The other insults may be slow, but the damage accumulates over time. For example, UV radiation hits your body from sunlight. Lets say the radiation causes a base to be copied incorrectly in one cell, resulting in an early stop codon in the gene which codes for insulin. Every time this cell and its progenitors divide, the wrecked version of insulin is propogated.
If this happens anywhere in your body other than the islets of langerhans, (the cells which make insulin) or your germline cells (sperm/egg production), the damage doesn't do anything.
So it's entirely possible that your skin cells have undergone thousands of mutations already, but the mutations are not important to the function and reproduction of skin cells.
Eventually, most people who expose themselves to massive doses of sunlight get skin cancer. At some point, mutations which affect the reproduction of skin cells accumulate to the point that the cells stop responding to the normal growth signals, and proliferate wildly, resulting in ugly tumours.
The genetic damage stays, but the drug exposure is time limited.
>>You just cannot lump all drugs together and ask if they impact immunity. >> Some are designed to impact immunity, others do it by accident, and a >>lot of them have no effect at all. > > Whether drugs not act as antigenic? To get an idea of which drugs can be antigenic, and why they can go look up penicillin, and hapten. After that, consider what introducing cow insulin into the human body may do.
After that, imagine insulin was massproduced by bacteria, and then injected into humans, would there be a larger immune response to the bacterial produced insulin as compared to the cow insulin?
Most drugs are not antigenic!
Bryan Heit - 12 Dec 2005 15:16 GMT > When cells can become cancerous with in one generation of human beings > effected by some environmental factors(as given below), why other cells > can't become resistant or develop ineffectiveness/tolerance of > unnatural durgs within lifespan of human being. Because cancer is essentially loss-of-function, whereas resistance to a drug is gain-of-function. When you get cancer what happens is the genes which regulate cell division no longer work properly. To develop resistance you need to gain new genes (or at a minimum, alter an old one) to get resistance. As you can imagine, it is much easier to break something that already exists then it is to create something new.
That's not to say you couldn't have a cell develop resistance to a drug, but:
1) How does having one (or a few) cells which are resistant prevent toxicity in the trillions of cells in your body? A) it doesn't.
2) How does that get passed on to your kids? A) It doesn't, unless the mutation happened to occur in an egg/sperm.
> I think I am thinking > about phenotype changes not genotype: Phenotype generally follows genotype, so it's pretty hard to have large changes in phenotype (i.e. development of resistance) without a concurrent change in genotype.
> "Cancer causes: In most individual cases of cancer, the exact cause of > cancer is unknown. You have to be very careful when talking about the cause of cancer. In all cases, cancer is a result of uncontrolled cell division. AFAIK, in 100% of cases this is a result of mutation(s) in the genes which regulate cell division.
However, what causes these mutation(s) is not well understood. We know that a lot of cancer is linked to infectious disease (notably viral and intracellular bacteria). Others are due to environmental pollutants (smoking), radiation (skin cancer), genetics (reteroblastoma), etc. Some seems to be just plain bad luck. But it is pretty hard to take a single patient and say that exposure to X caused their cancer.
>>I am unaware of any drug which is known to cause cancer. Any drug which >>was shown to do this would immediately be pulled off the shelves. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > lifestyle factors, including diet;? When these can cause cancer, how > drugs can't? Drug can, but all drugs go through a thorough screening process called a "clinical trial". This takes 5-10 years, and has two major goals:
1) To determine if the drug has medical benefit, and 2) To determine if the drug has side effects.
Cancer is a potential side effect of a drug, but such a drug would never be allowed to be sold. This is why we have clinical trials - to weed out drugs with really bad side effects (like cancer) BEFORE the drug reaches market.
You also have to keep in mind that cancer is, in essence, a DNA-based disease. So a drug would have to effect DNA, or the DNA repair enzymes, to have the potential to cause cancer. Most drugs to not target DNA or repair enzymes, and as such don't really have the potential to cause cancer.
Bryan
Bryan Heit - 07 Dec 2005 14:55 GMT > Helo, > Many modern food, modern environment in big cities and conventional > modern medicines are newly developed which can be in some unnatural > form to us not common and persistant to our body and to which we are > yet not evolved or become habitual. This is not entirely true. Our body has evolved multiple mechanisms of removing unfamiliar chemicals. Many organs, such as your liver, have enzyme which rather non-specifically target certain chemical groups. These enzymes can, in essence, pick apart most molecules into pieces which you body can deal with. Likewise, your body is also very good at excreting (via the kidneys) unknown chemicals with certain physical properties. Like in your liver, this is not very specific and is driven more by the characteristics of the molecule, rather then the chemical structure of the molecule.
In fact, from a drug design point of view, this broad-capacity of our body is a real pain in the a$$. Hundreds of drugs have failed; drugs which your body has never seen before. And the reason they fail is that your body removes them nearly as quickly as you can pump them in. I have friends who work in the pharmaceutical industry who's sole job is trying to find ways around our bodies increasable ability to detoxify stuff.
> Acoordingly, those substances can cause a stranger, antigenic or > foriegn body type effect to our body Not really. In order for our body to perceive something as an antigen it must be unidentifiable by our immune system. As such, the molecule has to be rather large, and usually protein, or lipid or polysaccharide in structure. Most drugs do not fit into these categories; rather they are "small molecule inhibitors" which are much too small for the immune system to detect.
There is an exception to this role. If a drug is "sticky" it may stick to a protein in your body, forming a hapten-protein conjugate. Your immune system may see this conjugate as foreign and raise an immune response against it. This is what causes penicillin, peanut and poison-ivy allergies/responses. However, these types of responses would be detected during a clinical trial, and drugs which do this probably wouldn't make market.
> 1. Will such effect from abobe mentioned newly developed modern and > unnatural substances not be a unnatural, confused, shocking, adverse > or toxic effect to our body? Lots of drugs are toxic, hence why you take them in controlled amounts. Likewise, we have clinical trials to determine if a drug is safe, and what it's potential side effects are. If a drug is unsafe, or its risks dramatically outweigh its benefits, it will not be approved for sale.
In other words, if a drug is on the market then it is as safe as we can possibly make the drug. And its benefits outweigh any potential damage it may do.
> 2. If yes, Will our body not resist and become resistant to these > unnatural modern substance alike bacterias become resitant to > antibiotics? No. Bacteria develop resistance via evolution. This takes literally thousands of bacterial generations to achieve. Individuals do not evolve, so you would not see an increase in resistance.
The one exception to this is if you could develop an immune response against the drug. Although this is unlikely for small molecules, it can be a problem for some drugs (i.e. protein drugs). But overall, these exceptions are quite rare.
Bryan
Kumar - 07 Dec 2005 16:05 GMT > > Helo, > > Many modern food, modern environment in big cities and conventional [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > be a problem for some drugs (i.e. protein drugs). But overall, these > exceptions are quite rare. Bryan, thanks good explaination. By these considerations I feel we are in safe hands and normally there can't be a long term permanent effect on us from drugs. I think reason behind it is that, our cells and their lines have short lifespan than bacterias.
Mike McWilliams - 07 Dec 2005 23:16 GMT > Bryan, thanks good explaination. By these considerations I feel we are > in safe hands and normally there can't be a long term permanent effect > on us from drugs. I think reason behind it is that, our cells and their > lines have short lifespan than bacterias. This is not the case, cells often have much longer lifetimes than bacteria...
The reason drugs tend not to have a long term effect is because they cause temporary reversible changes.
As for being in safe hands... that remains to be seen. We have an urgent need to develop technologies faster than they can be currently.
kumar - 08 Dec 2005 04:12 GMT > > Bryan, thanks good explaination. By these considerations I feel we are > > in safe hands and normally there can't be a long term permanent effect [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > This is not the case, cells often have much longer lifetimes than > bacteria... But bacterias are an organism as a whole but cells are part of n organism. Cells life in this sense can be considered as their cell-lines but bacterias are in genarations.
> The reason drugs tend not to have a long term effect is because they > cause temporary reversible changes. What about antibiotics to bacterias? Those may be toxic/killing and not non-reversible. I think by "temporary reversible changes" is related to damages not done to new cells but old cell lines should be getting non-reversible changes but since they die effects are thought to be reversible. I can't say about damages to cells with long life as nerve cells--they get reversible or non-reversible changes? Do we get some diseases in our basic/stem cells?
> As for being in safe hands... that remains to be seen. We have an urgent > need to develop technologies faster than they can be currently. Yes, resistant strains of pathogens may be just on our head soon. I can't say about "self disorders".
Mike McWilliams - 08 Dec 2005 15:22 GMT >>>Bryan, thanks good explaination. By these considerations I feel we are >>>in safe hands and normally there can't be a long term permanent effect [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > organism. Cells life in this sense can be considered as their > cell-lines but bacterias are in genarations. Not necessarily, some cells are present from their creation during development till death, and should not be thought of as "cell lines". Thinking of bacteria as generations is useful. Thinking of cells as generations is not usually useful.
>>The reason drugs tend not to have a long term effect is because they >>cause temporary reversible changes. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cells--they get reversible or non-reversible changes? Do we get some > diseases in our basic/stem cells? antibiotics to bacteria are not simply drugs, they are hardcore toxins which result in death.
"old cell lines" is not a particularly useful phrase. perhaps "cells with accumulated genetic damage" would be more useful.
Cells which accumulate enough damage to suddenly die just terminate, and no further division can propogate them, allowing healthier cells to colonize.
Cells with long lives are perhaps more susceptible to damage over a persons lifetime. This could explain why now with advanced medicine, peoples bodies are outlasting our minds (brains).
I stand by my definition of drugs. Toxins on the other hand....
Stem cell diseases do occur. You can think of Cancer as a stem cell disease. A cell which can divide indefinitely, can produce cells of different types... sounds a lot like a stem cell. It's just that cancer cells stop responding to normal regulatory signals.
Kumar - 08 Dec 2005 16:20 GMT > > "old cell lines" is not a particularly useful phrase. perhaps "cells > with accumulated genetic damage" would be more useful. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > persons lifetime. This could explain why now with advanced medicine, > peoples bodies are outlasting our minds (brains). Thanks. Good informations. It is very important to understand the damages in cells with long lives. Anyway, I think if damage is done to nerve cells(brain) it can effect whole body. I don't know how much con.meds are studied in this consideration.
kumar - 08 Dec 2005 16:39 GMT In this sense, should we consider all diseases other than nervous system diseases and pathogenic diseases as "genetically predisposed"? Sometimes I doubt insulin resistance--if genetically predisposed or not? Whether it is(IR) a genetic damage or not? Whether it really exist or not? Some indications are there that insulin is lost in urine, may be higher loss on getting diabetes due to polyuria or increased pressure. Since it is already known that insulin requirement can be lower due to decreased excretion of insuin in urine on getting diabetic nephropathy and a person can get hypoglycemic shots on getting DN due to decreased excretion of insulin. Whether urinary loss of insulin in its origional form or in some degraded form(effected filtrate pH) in normal health or on getting diabetes2 is there or not is bit unclear?
> > > "old cell lines" is not a particularly useful phrase. perhaps "cells > > with accumulated genetic damage" would be more useful. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > nerve cells(brain) it can effect whole body. I don't know how much > con.meds are studied in this consideration. Mike McWilliams - 08 Dec 2005 17:19 GMT > In this sense, should we consider all diseases other than nervous > system diseases and pathogenic diseases as "genetically predisposed"? Well, certain environmental factors can cause disease even in people not predisposed. Ex. asbestos causing lung cancer. I guess you can say all humans are predisposed to lung cancer upon asbestos inhalation.
Though not all are predisposed toward cancer.
> Sometimes I doubt insulin resistance--if genetically predisposed or > not? Whether it is(IR) a genetic damage or not? Whether it really exist [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > its origional form or in some degraded form(effected filtrate pH) in > normal health or on getting diabetes2 is there or not is bit unclear? I feel that your question isn't clear enough for me to understand.
however, protein excretion is not usually a good thing in urine. So I would imagine that any protein excretion would indicate abnormal health.
kumar - 12 Dec 2005 09:11 GMT Do you know if insulin is excreted in urine or not? It is accepted that on getting diabetic nephropathy, insulin is excreeted lesser. So why not in normal people? Mike McWilliams ne likha tha:
> > In this sense, should we consider all diseases other than nervous > > system diseases and pathogenic diseases as "genetically predisposed"? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > however, protein excretion is not usually a good thing in urine. So I > would imagine that any protein excretion would indicate abnormal health. Bryan Heit - 12 Dec 2005 15:23 GMT > Bryan, thanks good explaination. By these considerations I feel we are > in safe hands and normally there can't be a long term permanent effect > on us from drugs. I wouldn't go so far as to say that. All drugs have side effects, and in many cases these side effects can be long lasting. Some of these long-term effects are quite nasty. But in general, these drugs are for diseases which are otherwise going to kill you. Certain groups of drugs - particularly those for cancer and HIV - are incredibly toxic and have known long-term effects. But most people, given the choice between death and life with side effects, choose life.
You don't tend to see these long-term effects in drugs for less serious medical conditions. This is because the benefit of that kind of drug would be outweighed by the side effects. As such, the drug would never be allowed to be sold.
All drugs are a balance between side effects and benefits. The ones in the market have passed clinical trial, which means that their medical benefits should outweigh their side effects.
> I think reason behind it is that, our cells and their > lines have short lifespan than bacterias. Not true. The life span of a bacterial cells is not all that long; hours or days in general. The shortest-lived cells in our body (certain members of the immune system, I believe) last ~12 hours. Most cells last weeks or months before they are replaced. A few (neurons, T-cells) last your entire lifetime.
Bryan
kumar - 13 Dec 2005 02:59 GMT > > Bryan, thanks good explaination. By these considerations I feel we are > > in safe hands and normally there can't be a long term permanent effect [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > known long-term effects. But most people, given the choice between > death and life with side effects, choose life.
> You don't tend to see these long-term effects in drugs for less serious > medical conditions. This is because the benefit of that kind of drug [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Bryan In view of short lifespan of our body's cells (except neurons, T-cells and cancer cells)-how we can justify "All drugs have side effects, and in many cases these side effects can be long lasting" other than sede effects related to neurons, T-cells and cancer cells?
Btw, can imbalances in pH at different body's parts cause cancer's mutations?
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