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Medical Forum / General / General / December 2005biotech a T-cell into a bacteriaphage to cure AIDS
Robert wrote: These are viruses that invade bacteria. > So I wonder if there is a bacteria that eats viruses? And would it be > called a viralphage? Why would bacteria eat a virus? It is pure viral genetic material of no nutritional value and everything bad. A.P. writes: Okay, so there is no independent organism that eats viruses according to Robert. Well, we do know that T-cells eat viruses. So we engineer a T-cell that eats the AIDS virus to be an independent organism. I see that as difficult but not impossible. So we take T-cells and bio engineer them into that of a bacteriaphage to get a independent virus eating organism. What is great about this method of cure is that every virus is then curable in that we have a long lasting method of attack. We take the bacteriaphage and redesign it for bird flu or SARS or West Nile etc etc. The drawbacks would be if the bacteriaphage did harm to the human body or evolved into something that was unwanted. As with anything in science there is benefit and their is some bad. Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies sorry, but i feld the need to write, Actually, T-cells don't eat foreign organism's, macrophage cell's do. Funny you should mention T-cells though, because they are the target of the HIV virus. The problem with virusses is that they hide inside the host cells. So even if you where to create an enginered cell to attack virusses, it wouldn't be able to reach the virus inside the cell. The immune system solves this by destroying cells that are infected, which it can reconize by changes on receptors on the outside of the cells. Unfortunatly, with HIV these changes are very rapid so the immune system hasn't have time to clear these cells. So even if you can engineer cells that destroy HIV infected cells, those enginered cells would have the same problem your own immune system has at destroying the infected cells. > sorry, but i feld the need to write, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > would have the same problem your own immune system has at destroying > the infected cells. Well this is a new methodology for curing a virus disease. It is more direct than a vaccine and should prove better than a vaccine because it fights the disease directly. I would say it is the generalization of what Penicillin was to bacteria where a mold organism fights bacteria. Okay, so it is called a Macrophage. Let us biotech a macrophage that is an independent organism. Next we biotech it so that it eats specifically viruses. When all is done we have a vial elixir that we drink and it destroys the viruses within our bodies. I was always an admirer of solutions that are direct and head-on straightforward solutions. Not solutions that require second and third party participants but direct solutions. How difficult is it going to be to take Macrophages and make them independent particles? How difficult is it going to be to engineer Macrophages to eat viruses? Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies Now, can we take a Penicillin Mold which is an independent organism and biotech engineer into this mold that of human Macrophages? Not that we want the penicillin derivative of such a mold but that we want the Human Macrophages to be self sustained independent organism. You see, what I want to biotech engineer is a Macrophage organism that is independently existing out of the human body and when placed into the human body goes around and eats up any viral particles it comes in contact with. Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies > I would say it is the generalization of what Penicillin was to bacteria > where a mold organism fights bacteria. Penicillium is a mold that makes a substance we call penicillin that is toxic to bacteria and generally not toxic to human cells. If you eat penicillium when you're sick, it will be digested by your GI system and there will be no benefit. > Okay, so it is called a Macrophage. Let us biotech a macrophage that is > an independent organism. Next we biotech it so that it eats > specifically viruses. > > When all is done we have a vial elixir that we drink and it destroys > the viruses within our bodies. If you drink a solution containing macrophages, they'll be killed in your stomach and there will be no benefit, just like with the penicillium. > I was always an admirer of solutions that are direct and head-on > straightforward solutions. Not solutions that require second and third > party participants but direct solutions. Sometimes things appear to have direct and straightforward solutions until you learn more about the problem. > How difficult is it going to be to take Macrophages and make them > independent particles? > > How difficult is it going to be to engineer Macrophages to eat viruses? Macrophages in your body already consume viruses, or you'd be dead. The immune system is pretty complex. This is an extreme simplification of cell-mediated immune function: Under the direction of your T cells, plasma B cells make protein molecules called antibodies that collide with the viruses (and bacteria) and stick to their surfaces in sort of a lock-and-key configuration, which makes it more difficult for the viruses to attach to your cell membranes, and makes it easier for the macrophages to recognize and consume them. One problem you may not be aware of is that the antibodies have to be specific to the microbe they're fighting or the lock-and-key thing doesn't work. There's no way anybody on this board has the time to explain everything you need to know to understand why your idea is too simplistic to work; you'll have to take a college microbiology course to gain even a basic understanding. --Patti > you'll have to take a college microbiology course > to gain even a basic understanding. Sorry -- I should have said: You'll have to take a college microbiology course to gain even a basic understanding *of microbes*, and then you'll need a pathophysiology course to understand how microbes and the immune system interact. --Patti <a_pluton...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1133581658.526723.176020@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > I would say it is the generalization of what Penicillin was to bacteria > where a mold organism fights bacteria. Penicillium is a mold that makes a substance we call penicillin that is toxic to bacteria and generally not toxic to human cells. If you eat penicillium when you're sick, it will be digested by your GI system and there will be no benefit. > Okay, so it is called a Macrophage. Let us biotech a macrophage that is > an independent organism. Next we biotech it so that it eats > specifically viruses. > When all is done we have a vial elixir that we drink and it destroys > the viruses within our bodies. If you drink a solution containing macrophages, they'll be killed in your stomach and there will be no benefit, just like with the penicillium. > I was always an admirer of solutions that are direct and head-on > straightforward solutions. Not solutions that require second and third > party participants but direct solutions. Sometimes things appear to have direct and straightforward solutions until you learn more about the problem. > How difficult is it going to be to take Macrophages and make them > independent particles? > How difficult is it going to be to engineer Macrophages to eat viruses? Macrophages in your body already consume viruses, or you'd be dead. The immune system is pretty complex. This is an extreme simplification of cell-mediated immune function: Under the direction of your T cells, plasma B cells make protein molecules called antibodies that collide with the viruses (and bacteria) and stick to their surfaces in sort of a lock-and-key configuration, which makes it more difficult for the viruses to attach to your cell membranes, and makes it easier for the macrophages to recognize and consume them. One problem you may not be aware of is that the antibodies have to be specific to the microbe they're fighting or the lock-and-key thing doesn't work. There's no way anybody on this board has the time to explain everything you need to know to understand why your idea is too simplistic to work; you'll have to take a college microbiology course to gain even a basic understanding. --Patti Thanks for the minicourse in microbiology. I did know about penicillin and that you have to inject it, but I do recall some antibiotics swallowed for boils. But the point I was making with mold and penicillin is that of an Analogy for we have to start with some independent organism as the base for which we biotech add on a Macrophage. I just happened to pick mold as the base startup to attach macrophages. It probably will work out that some other microorganism is the prefered base stock to graft on a Macrophage. >From your minicourse it seems as though Macrophages before they eat any virus require some antibody to be attached to the virus first. It seems from your picture that Macrophages cannot eat a virus unless antibodies involve themselves first. Perhaps some macrophages do not need a antibody preliminary step and can eat a virus without antibodies. I do not know. All I am after is a independent existing organism that eats viruses when it comes in contact with a virus and does no other harm to the body. So that is my goal. So I need a very good candidate to be the base or host to graft onto this host a human Macrophage so that it can live independent and out of a human body. Now according to the AIDS report on PBS, there were some Kenyan prostitutes that were immune to AIDS because their macrophages ate up the AIDS virus. So what I would like to do is to take those macrophages and graft them or splice them or incorporate them into another organism benign to humans and when placed inside an infected human starts to eat up the virus. Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies Can someone please tell me if macrophages from one human transplanted into a different human will work? Maybe the answer to AIDS is ultra simple, in that we take some of the immune Kenyan prosititutes Macrophages and culture them to increase and then simply transplant those cultured Macrophages into infected people. We give donor blood, so why not donor Macrophages? Does the human body recognize foreign macrophages and mount a attack on those foreign macrophages? If all of this is good and true, then the future cure of any and all viruses is to find that human that is immune to the specific virus because of their unique Macrophages and then culture those macrophages and administer them to all infected people. So let us say bird flu comes on the scene in a pandemic way, we find those individuals immune to bird flu-- if memory serves me correctly in Vietnam was an elderly man who was immune to bird flu (PBS recent documentary). So find this Vietnam man who is carrying bird flu and take his Macrophages. Culture them and increase them and then simply inject those infected. Sounds to good and too simple to be true but who knows, maybe it is all that very simple. Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies > Can someone please tell me if macrophages from one human transplanted > into a different human will work? > > Maybe the answer to AIDS is ultra simple, in that we take some of the > immune Kenyan prosititutes Macrophages and culture them to increase and > then simply transplant those cultured Macrophages into infected people. Bad news about your Kenyan prostitutes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/619316.stm > <a_pluton...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > Thanks for the minicourse in microbiology. I did know about penicillin > and that you have to inject it, Sorry. I guess I wasn't very clear. You can take a pill or a solution of the antibiotic penicillIN, which is the antimicrobial substance made by the mold penicillIUM > but I do recall some antibiotics > swallowed for boils. Lots of antibiotics can be swallowed; none of them work for viruses. > But the point I was making with mold and penicillin is that of an > Analogy for we have to start with some independent organism as the base [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > from your picture that Macrophages cannot eat a virus unless antibodies > involve themselves first. So far as I understand it, that's true most of the time. > Perhaps some macrophages do not need a antibody preliminary step and > can eat a virus without antibodies. I do not know. Macrophages are enormous compared to viruses. How would they find viruses without a hint? Macrophages don't have brains, ears, or eyes; just chemoreceptors. This explains the size differences: http://www.microbe.org/microbes/what_is.asp >All I am after is a independent existing organism that eats viruses > when it comes in contact with a virus and does no other harm to the > body. So that is my goal. So you'll need to go to college and learn more about it. > So I need a very good candidate to be the base or host to graft onto > this host a human Macrophage so that it can live independent and out of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > prostitutes that were immune to AIDS because their macrophages ate up > the AIDS virus. I didn't see the program, but I think it's more likely they don't have cell surface markers the virus can attach to in the first place. Some people are immune to AIDS for that reason, but that kind of immunity cannot be transferred to others. > So what I would like to do is to take those macrophages and graft them > or splice them or incorporate them into another organism benign to > humans and when placed inside an infected human starts to eat up the > virus. If you're a whiz at Mario Brothers or Doom or whatever, do you think somebody who has never played any of the games will be able to help you win the latest one? You seem like a pretty smart guy, but you've skipped some major steps here. The folks here who *really* know the answers to your questions won't even talk to you because the questions you ask can be pretty annoying, because you really don't know what you're talking about. You need to take some classes before you can even ask questions that make sense, or at least do some reading. Clearly you have the interest. --Patti > > >From your minicourse it seems as though Macrophages before they eat any > > virus require some antibody to be attached to the virus first. It seems > > from your picture that Macrophages cannot eat a virus unless antibodies > > involve themselves first. http://www-immuno.path.cam.ac.uk/~immuno/part1/lec15/lec15_97.html > > > >From your minicourse it seems as though Macrophages before they eat any > > > virus require some antibody to be attached to the virus first. It seems > > > from your picture that Macrophages cannot eat a virus unless antibodies > > > involve themselves first. > > http://www-immuno.path.cam.ac.uk/~immuno/part1/lec15/lec15_97.html He should really start with lecture 1. http://www-immuno.path.cam.ac.uk/~immuno/part1.html > > > > >From your minicourse it seems as though Macrophages before they eat > any [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www-immuno.path.cam.ac.uk/~immuno/part1.html He should read more and talk less. > He should read more and talk less. Oh yeah, so should I. But apparently he's one of those geniuses who comes along every 500 to 1000 years, so he doesn't need to read anything, but rather can rely on his logical scientific mind to solve difficult problems with simple and straightforward solutions. You in the narrow-minded scientific community are too dumb to recognize his brilliance, and are thereby missing an opportunity to help him cure AIDS. Shame on you. :) Patti wrote: If you're a whiz at Mario Brothers or Doom or whatever, do you think somebody who has never played any of the games will be able to help you win the latest one? You seem like a pretty smart guy, but you've skipped some major steps here. The folks here who *really* know the answers to your questions won't even talk to you because the questions you ask can be pretty annoying, because you really don't know what you're talking about. You need to take some classes before you can even ask questions that make sense, or at least do some reading. Clearly you have the interest. A.P. writes: Well that idea is true for the case of 99.99 percent of people who enter science. But about every 500 years or 1,000 years comes along a scientist so well blessed who can contribute more to any science he steps into and enters without any knowledge of the details or background of the science, just because he has such a well ordered logical mind of science that he can make a contribution. Some examples in history were Poincare, were Gauss, were Newton, were Galileo, were Archimedes. You see Patti, a science genius that is a generalist can contribute more to biology without ever studying it in college than your contributions after having studyied it for a lifetime. And the reason behind this lopsidedness is because the genius is gifted in scientific logic, whereas you Patti are not gifted and everything you do in science is obtained the good old fashioned hard way. It is the duty of a Newton or Galileo to push at every corner of science. And silly of someone like Patti to say-- hey only those with a degree in biology can enter here. You see how stupid that is Patti and how stupid your comment is. Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies > Patti wrote: > If you're a whiz at Mario Brothers or Doom or whatever, do you think [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > in history were Poincare, were Gauss, were Newton, were Galileo, were > Archimedes. You're wrong. Those guys were all educated in the science of their day. None of them came at it entirely clueless like you. > You see Patti, a science genius that is a generalist can contribute > more to biology without ever studying it in college than your > contributions after having studyied it for a lifetime. And the reason > behind this lopsidedness is because the genius is gifted in scientific > logic, whereas you Patti are not gifted and everything you do in > science is obtained the good old fashioned hard way. Sweet pea, I am a student nurse. I take the science up the a.s the old fashioned way so they'll let me take care of patients, which I dearly love doing. Clearly I am no genius, but it doesn't take a genius to tell that you aren't one either. > It is the duty of a Newton or Galileo to push at every corner of > science. And silly of someone like Patti to say-- hey only those with a > degree in biology can enter here. Not a degree -- just do some of your own damn homework. You're asking us to spoonfeed you. > You see how stupid that is Patti and how stupid your comment is. Oh, whatever. Finals are next week. You're a cute little imbecile, but I have to study now or I will fail. Plonking you with a smile. :) --Patti >Oh, whatever. Finals are next week. You're a cute little imbecile, but I >have to study now or I will fail. Plonking you with a smile. :) Patti, Archimedes Plutonium is a Usenet Kook of several decades standing. Most people would not regard him as sane. It's not clear whether he's a paranoid schizophrenic with megalomania, or has a serious personality disorder. He frequently posts at length about his brilliant theories, his status as King of Science, and especially a sort of religion he's invented that has a divine cosmic plutonium nucleus at its center. Thoughts do not originate in the brain, according to him, but are beamed there by this cosmic nucleus. He sometimes posts hymns to it. It isn't possible to hold a discussion with him. I'm surprised it took more than two exchanges this time before he resorted to the characteristic tactics that offended you. Don't take it personally. He does this to everybody who attempts to correct or inform him. Good luck with your finals, although I don't think you'll need luck to do well! > In article <PfIkf.3095$ev6.460208@twister.southeast.rr.com>, Half the people here that post are crazy. You have at least the educated ones on subjects and then you just have the plain crazies. He should read and at least work his way up to Johns status. > > In article <PfIkf.3095$ev6.460208@twister.southeast.rr.com>, > > Half the people here that post are crazy. You have at least the educated > ones on subjects and then you just have the plain crazies. > He should read and at least work his way up to Johns status. Who's John? > > > In article <PfIkf.3095$ev6.460208@twister.southeast.rr.com>, > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Who's John? I'm going to take a guess that he means John Scudamore. The guy with the whale.to website who hasn't seen a conspiracy theory of alt med subject he didn't like (even if they contradict each other): http://members.tripod.com/vaccinesupport-ivil/antivaxsites/whale.html > > > > In article <PfIkf.3095$ev6.460208@twister.southeast.rr.com>, > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > didn't like (even if they contradict each other): > http://members.tripod.com/vaccinesupport-ivil/antivaxsites/whale.html See the post below on "why did AIDs baby die". They have a few vets who don't believe in AIDs or HIV. > > > > > In article <PfIkf.3095$ev6.460208@twister.southeast.rr.com>, > > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > See the post below on "why did AIDs baby die". They have a few vets who > don't believe in AIDs or HIV. Truthfully, John does not come up with the stuff himself. He seems to echo the conspiracy theories from various places. All it has to do is against "real medicine" and he is all over it --- if even it is an excuse for the death of either a 3 year old denied treatment for a virus given to her by her mother or for a murdering who shook his girlfriend's baby to death (and then blamed it on vaccines). > > > > > > In article <PfIkf.3095$ev6.460208@twister.southeast.rr.com>, > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > > > > See the post below on "why did AIDs baby die". They have a few vets This is probably a stupid question: You mean veterinarians or veterans? > who > > don't believe in AIDs or HIV. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > her mother or for a murdering who shook his girlfriend's baby to death (and > then blamed it on vaccines). Oh. I usually don't read much of those threads. I hate arguments that don't solve anything. Too stressful. I spoze I come here to practice my nursy nurse patient education :) And in doing so I get tangled up with the occasional kook, which is fun too, for a day or so. > > > > > > > In article <PfIkf.3095$ev6.460208@twister.southeast.rr.com>, > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > he > > > > didn't like (even if they contradict each other): http://members.tripod.com/vaccinesupport-ivil/antivaxsites/whale.html > > > See the post below on "why did AIDs baby die". They have a few vets > > This is probably a stupid question: You mean veterinarians or > veterans? He means veternarians. The al-Bayati guy's advanced degree is in "comparative pathology"... and if you look at the list that one of his defenders keeps posting, they are mostly about non-human studies. > > who > > > don't believe in AIDs or HIV. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > my nursy nurse patient education :) And in doing so I get tangled up > with the occasional kook, which is fun too, for a day or so. That is why I pop in once in a while, just for some of the more entertaining banter (and to counter some of the more goofy claims of a relative of mine!). Since I started reading these groups years ago I have developed a thicker skin, so it is not so stressful. > That is why I pop in once in a while, just for some of the more entertaining > banter (and to counter some of the more goofy claims of a relative of > mine!). Since I started reading these groups years ago I have developed a > thicker skin, so it is not so stressful. Who's your relative? > > That is why I pop in once in a while, just for some of the more > entertaining [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Who's your relative? An in-law who likes to argue at holiday gatherings. > > Who's your relative? > > > An in-law who likes to argue at holiday gatherings. Ah. I thought you meant one of your relatives posts here. > >Oh, whatever. Finals are next week. You're a cute little imbecile, but I > >have to study now or I will fail. Plonking you with a smile. :) > > Patti, Archimedes Plutonium is a Usenet Kook of several decades > standing. Okay. Eventually I'll have had a nice chat with each one. :) > Most people would not regard him as sane. It's not clear > whether he's a paranoid schizophrenic with megalomania, or has a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > more than two exchanges this time before he resorted to the > characteristic tactics that offended you. I was really more amused than offended, but I had to plonk so I wouldn't be tempted to respond. Last week I very nearly offered kinky sexual favors to the eminent Dr. Chung (Andrew... MD, Ph.D.) for the purpose of yanking his chain, but I was rescued just in time by some thoughtful poster pointing out that he's mentally ill, and I realized that it just wouldn't be right. Still, the orgy of hyperreligious platitudes would have been fun to read. > Don't take it personally. > He does this to everybody who attempts to correct or inform him. I don't take it personally. I just feel kinda stupid. I suppose I should start looking folks up in AUK before I respond. For me this is twice in two weeks. Full moon? > Good luck with your finals, although I don't think you'll need luck to > do well! :) Thanks. --Patti All she is saying is you to read what has already been learned. Is it more simple for people to fly on there own vs taking an airplane? Read about human physiology and see if people have wings or feathers and then read about airplanes. > Robert wrote: > These are viruses that invade bacteria. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > whole entire Universe is just one big atom > where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
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