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Medical Forum / General / General / December 2005Acid, Alkaline, Water forming Foods?
Hello, We occasionally hear that some foods is acidic, alkaline or water-attracting. Sometimes, these are acid, alkaline forming and water-creating. Some other say, these are acid, alikaline ash forming or hydrating/dehydrating. What does it mean? Are these related to their different effect on digestive pH/water and internal pH/water status? Whether these create somewhat opposite pH/water effects in digestive tract and in internal enviroinment? Best wishes. I wouldn't even call this "pseudo-science." If there is an effect, it must be very minimal, except perhaps in particular "diseased" states. You seem to be at a point I was a few years ago, trying to sort out all the contradictory information that is presented through the media. To sum up my conclusions at this point: the body can take care of itself, if you give it what it needs and avoid dangerous substances, like anything made with highly unsaturated oils and anything with cholesterol that is likely to have been oxidized. After that, it's simple: electrolyte minerals in absorbably forms, ample stomach acid, vitamin D or sufficient sunlight. >> We occasionally hear that some foods is acidic, alkaline or >> water-attracting. Sometimes, these are acid, alkaline forming and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You seem to be at a point I was a few years ago, trying to sort out all > the contradictory information that is presented through the media. The academic seems NOT to know his history very well. :( http://tutorials.naturalhealthperspective.com/allopathy.html "The system of medicine prevailing in the Colonies in the years immediately preceding the American Revolution, was that of the Dutch physician and teacher Hermann Boerhaave (1668-1738). The Boerhaavian theory of disease explained it in terms of chemical and physical qualities, such as acidity and alkalinity, or tension and relaxation." The rational for the above beliefs can be traced back to the allopathic Boerhaavian system. Don't you just love, loving science Monty? Boerhaave sure did. Just thought that you might want to know. When we are born, our body is slightly alkaline. As we age, our bodies loses the alkalinity slowly. It depends on what we eat. Lots of chemical reactions in our bodies & the food after being metabolised produces acidic organic substances. Most the junk foods we have are acidic. You can do a litmus test.. you will be shocked. Scientific studies have shown that acidic body conditions contribute to cancer development & numerous degenerating diseases. A sickly person has a lower pH level compared to a healthy individual. Fermentation of milk by Lactobicillius bacterias turning lactose to lactic acid protects the milk from invasion of other harmful bacterias. Acidic conditions kill cells. We drink more water than we eat. Over 60% of our cells is water. It is natural to arrest this pH issue through administering of alkaline water. This alkalinity is the result of minerals, namely the major minerals: magnesium, calcium & potassium. It is right to conclude the possibility of malnutrition issues in acidic persons. Malnutrition is an imbalance in the body. We are talking about the electrolytes in the fluids in the cells. The OH vs H in the water. If you add minerals to distilled water, the they form OH anions, clustered & structured molecules. They are smaller than the normal water molecules. Normal water has a cluster of in 24 molecules. This size is too big to pass through our cell membranes. Distilled water has a cluster of 10 molecules. Alkaline water has a cluster of 6 molecules. Our cell membrane structure is about the size of 8 molecules in a cluster. Ideally, alkaline water can diffuse into our cells better, does not cause bloating. Furthermore, it is enriched with minerals. Alkaline water has antioxidant properties due to OH... the hydroxyl anions. There is an emphasis on taking greens & herbs because of their alkalising effects. Lemon & organic apple cider vinegar are turn alkaline after digestion. Just take lemon for instance. The citric acid & potassium carbonate after digestion turns alkaline. That's why lemon is the elixir of life in french folk medicine. Organic Apple Cider Vinegar has potash ash that turn alkaline after digestion. Chives, wheatgrass, barley grass has high mineral content that are very alkalising. The issue is we are consuming far too few of these in our diet. We have too much energy nutrients in our diet... too much bad fats & excess proteins. It certainly make sense to add lemon & organic vinegar to our drinking water. 2 lemons plus two teaspoons of organic vinegar for every litre. This is an interesting area of study. Holistic Nutrition. Matthias Robin Wang Heng Teck Undergraduate Student Bachelor of human Nutrition Kansas State University > When we are born, our body is slightly alkaline. As we age, our bodies > loses the alkalinity slowly. It depends on what we eat. Lots of [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Bachelor of human Nutrition > Kansas State University So do you submit this nonsensical garbage as part of your university assignments? You are a nutcase. gtoomey Of course not.. this is nowhere found in my programme. I just typed all that for the fun of it. Test the legitimacy of the information. I heard it from someone too. I also look up companies selling water ionisers. Roughly that is what they say. The information for lemon is from Dr Jean Valnet's book... the father of aromatherapy. It does say critic acid after digestion becomes alkaline. Potassium carbonate.. right... is akaline compound to start with. Ash in the organic vinegar too. I think not much issues with lemon & organic vinegar. The ionised water is not really easy to understand. The technology of splitting water atoms by electricity comes from Korea. Invented by a doctorate water scientist. They managed to split water of normal pH into acidic & alkaline waters with smaller molecular or atomic sizes. The resultant water has bio-electricity or static charge that is capable of killing microbes & is same charge as our stomach. The nutrients in the water gets absorbed easily in the stomach. Doesn't have travel to our intestines to absorption of nutrients. This type of water ionisers are very common in Japan. The alkaline water can be used to infuse tea leaves at room temperature without heat. High solvency. Powerful antioxidant with lots of oxygen.This is not the conventional electrolysis of water, splitting into hydrogen gas & oxygen gas. I have seen this type of machine in Singapore. I have tried using the alkaline water for my plants.. & they grow very well. The acidic water is good the skin. The ionising machine generates both acidic & alkaline waters at the same time like a filter. But the water loses their alkalinity & acidic over time. Anyway, I guess I used some of the terminology wrongly though. So spare me the terminology.You guys can look up http://watershed.net/jupiter_dys.htm#4. http://watershed.net/Jupiter-Overview1.htm. This is the official Korean site... http://www.jupiterion.com/. they have won some many awards in water. Web sources to confirm please, if only one counter example is required to toss a notion, there is one for cancer. > When we are born, our body is slightly alkaline. As we age, our bodies > loses the alkalinity slowly. It depends on what we eat. Lots of > chemical reactions in our bodies & the food after being metabolised > produces acidic organic substances. Most the junk foods we have are > acidic. You can do a litmus test.. you will be shocked. You can do a litmus test of your urine. It will be acidic. The kidneys remove excess acid from the body. > Scientific studies have shown that acidic body conditions contribute to > cancer development & numerous degenerating diseases. References please. > A sickly person > has a lower pH level compared to a healthy individual. Yet that doesn't mean acid causes illness. Very sick people often don't eat well. Yet, eating too well often causes illness. > Fermentation of > milk by Lactobicillius bacterias turning lactose to lactic acid > protects the milk from invasion of other harmful bacterias. Acidic > conditions kill cells. Except that the body pH is a pretty constant 7.36 to 7.44. > We drink more water than we eat. Over 60% of our cells is water. It is > natural to arrest this pH issue through administering of alkaline > water. Unless the water you drink is naturally alkaline, there is nothing natural about it. > This alkalinity is the result of minerals, namely the major > minerals: magnesium, calcium & potassium. Actually, alkilinity is the result of the OH- (hydroxyl group). You ought to read a chemistry textbook. > It is right to conclude the > possibility of malnutrition issues in acidic persons. Malnutrition is > an imbalance in the body. We are talking about the electrolytes in the > fluids in the cells. The OH vs H in the water. If you add minerals to > distilled water, the they form OH anions, clustered & structured > molecules. Anions are not molecules. Again, you need to read a chemistry book. It is not the calcium or magnesium that forms the OH groups, but rather the carbonate or other anions that bind to the H+ in the water, and form excess OH groups. > They are smaller than the normal water molecules. Normal > water has a cluster of in 24 molecules. This size is too big to pass > through our cell membranes. Distilled water has a cluster of 10 > molecules. Alkaline water has a cluster of 6 molecules. Our cell > membrane structure is about the size of 8 molecules in a cluster. Our cell membranes are far larger than that. Our cell members surround our entire cells. This whole talk about the size of wataer clusters is totally irrelevent. The pH inside our bodies is a constant 7.4 (7.36 to 7.44 is the normal range). > Ideally, alkaline water can diffuse into our cells better, does not > cause bloating. Furthermore, it is enriched with minerals. Alkaline > water has antioxidant properties due to OH... the hydroxyl anions. Evidence please. > There is an emphasis on taking greens & herbs because of their > alkalising effects. Actually, because of the minerals like potassium, the fiber (nothing like a clean larrge intestine) and because of the antioxidants, the pH of which is not important. > Lemon & organic apple cider vinegar are turn > alkaline after digestion. Just take lemon for instance. The citric acid > & potassium carbonate after digestion turns alkaline. Actually, potassium carbonate is alkaline before digestion. > That's why lemon > is the elixir of life in french folk medicine. No, it is because the French folk medicine people had no clue about what they were talking. > Organic Apple Cider > Vinegar has potash ash that turn alkaline after digestion. Again, potash ash is alkaline before digestion. > Chives, > wheatgrass, barley grass has high mineral content that are very [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is an interesting area of study. Holistic Nutrition. It might be interesting, but it is not based on any good science. Jeff > Matthias Robin Wang Heng Teck > Undergraduate Student > Bachelor of human Nutrition > Kansas State University > When we are born, our body is slightly alkaline. ??? As we age, our bodies > loses the alkalinity slowly. ??? It depends on what we eat. We eat the same foods throughout our lives. Lots of > chemical reactions in our bodies & the food after being metabolised > produces acidic organic substances. Always, as it is normal physiolology. Most the junk foods we have are > acidic. So don't eat junk food and forget about the pH crap. >You can do a litmus test.. you will be shocked. Do a litmus test on 50 people and that will take out the shock as it is normal. > Scientific studies have shown that acidic body conditions contribute to > cancer development & numerous degenerating diseases. That's news to the medical community as I thought you alternatives were convinced it was "eating for your blood type". A sickly person > has a lower pH level compared to a healthy individual. Acidosis outside the norm denotes disease. Fermentation of > milk by Lactobicillius bacterias turning lactose to lactic acid > protects the milk from invasion of other harmful bacterias. Acidic > conditions kill cells. All cases of lactic acidosis have nothing to do with Lactobacillis. > We drink more water than we eat. Over 60% of our cells is water. It is > natural to arrest this pH issue through administering of alkaline > water. This alkalinity is the result of minerals, namely the major > minerals: magnesium, calcium & potassium. It is right to conclude the > possibility of malnutrition issues in acidic persons. Most cases of metabolic acidosis and none of the cases of respiratory acidosis have anything to do with malnutrition. Malnutrition is > an imbalance in the body. We are talking about the electrolytes in the > fluids in the cells. The OH vs H in the water. If you add minerals to > distilled water, the they form OH anions, clustered & structured > molecules. They are smaller than the normal water molecules. Water is in equilibrium at a pH of 7 and doesn't need other ions to become ionized. Other compounds are have dissociation constants as well which depends on that particular compound. Size has nothing to do with it. Normal > water has a cluster of in 24 molecules. This size is too big to pass > through our cell membranes. How is water absorbed in the intestine when one drinks water. Distilled water has a cluster of 10 Water is water and you confuse ionic forms from the water molecule. > molecules. Alkaline water has a cluster of 6 molecules. Our cell > membrane structure is about the size of 8 molecules in a cluster. > Ideally, alkaline water can diffuse into our cells better, does not > cause bloating. Furthermore, it is enriched with minerals. Alkaline > water has antioxidant properties due to OH... the hydroxyl anions. ALkaline water? Water is at a pH of 7 and is neither acid nor alkaline. You have chemicals that when put in water then by definition is not water anymore. It contains water plus the additional ions or minerals. Oxidation is defined as the gain of oxygen or the loss of hydrogen. You want your body perfused with oxygen to avoid lactic acidosis. Oxygen is the final receptor of Hyrogen in the electron transport cellular respiration resulting in the formation of water. Mineral absorption is under hormonal control as anybody with hemochromatosis can tell you. > There is an emphasis on taking greens & herbs because of their > alkalising effects. Lemon & organic apple cider vinegar are turn > alkaline after digestion. Just take lemon for instance. The citric acid > & potassium carbonate after digestion turns alkaline. After ingestion? First you say that only alkaline water is absorbed and acids are too big to pass through the membranes. The truth is that the stomach has acid that can burn your skin right off and so all foods become acidic in the stomach. The intestinal secretions neutralize the acid with alkaline solutions via the gallbladder and pancrease. Intestinal contents are thus more alkaline. This happens regardless of what you eat. That's why lemon > is the elixir of life in french folk medicine. Organic Apple Cider > Vinegar has potash ash that turn alkaline after digestion. Chives, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > vinegar to our drinking water. 2 lemons plus two teaspoons of organic > vinegar for every litre. You can eat anything you want and let your stomach and intestine sort it out. > This is an interesting area of study. Holistic Nutrition. > > Matthias Robin Wang Heng Teck > Undergraduate Student > Bachelor of human Nutrition > Kansas State University I really don't believe the above otherwise why would you state it? Robert, Minister of Health Associate Director of Water Health Thanks. When we take any alkaline food or antacid (not alk. ash forming), or an acidic food--how do these effect internal pH? Whether body balances it instantly or not is a different issue. Something is given on these sites but beyond my head; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastric_acid http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/stomach/parietal.html Furthur, can there be progressive damages or effects due to prolong intake of either acidic or alkaline foods which in long run may result some collapsing effects--means body become unable to handle at any date? So how should we avoid it? > Thanks. > > When we take any alkaline food or antacid (not alk. ash forming), or an > acidic food--how do these effect internal pH? Whether body balances it > instantly or not is a different issue. Don't really know what you are asking. The bodies pH is keep within a narrow range and excess acid is excreted. Urine pH is in the 5 range and the blood in the pH 7.4. People with disease such as renal failure are unable to excrete the total acid load so they recommend less food minimizing the acid load. I don't know a any normal person who's blood or internal pH changes because they ate something. Those that are impacted by eating something have disease and it is the disease that is the limiting factor. There are several over the counter stuff like calcium carbonate which isn't food that can give you milk alkali syndrome when taken in excess amounts. It is the combination of calcium and alkali that causes the problem. This problem was eliminated by newer nonabsorable alkali and H2 blockers, proton inhibitors etc. These are not food. Without any context of what you are getting at then it becomes too general to comment anything specific. > Something is given on these sites but beyond my head; > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastric_acid http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/stomach/parietal.html > Furthur, can there be progressive damages or effects due to prolong > intake of either acidic or alkaline foods which in long run may result > some collapsing effects--means body become unable to handle at any > date? So how should we avoid it? Not of acidity but if one becomes allergic or sensitive to certain foods then yes you can have chronic damage such as celiac sprue or anaphylaxsis IgE allergies. There can be consequences of chronic acidosis or alkalosis due to disease but that is in the nature of disease and not in health. "The epithelium of the stomach is intrinsically resistant to the damaging effects of gastric acid and other insults. Nonetheless, excessive secretion of gastric acid is a major problem in human and, to a lesser extent, animal populations, leading to gastritis, gastric ulcers" This is taken out of context. The stomach is resistant to acid and something must happen to change the normal physiology and that being disease such as an infection of bacteria eating at the stomach and causing the acid damage or a tumor of gastrin producing cells with over production of acid which is rare. http://familydoctor.org/474.xml Try reading some more and if you have specific questions then put them out here. Acid & Base balance depends upon the state of the body....& environment also.. If a person is living in high altitude where pO2 is very less, he/she tend to breathe rapidly & lose CO2 from the body more than normal. This results in acidosis, which is taken care of by Kidneys.... Kidneys are the powerful filtering organs in our body... They help in maintaining Homeostasis. They break Water into H & OH with the help of enzymes, H is excreted & most of OH is reabsorbed. In this case low pH foods won't harm much, but just think if they are consumed in large doses [like aerated drinks Eg: Coke] salts formed in nephrons aren't dissolved but deposit as stones obstructing the urinary tract... Here alkaline foods are very helpful, they reduce burden on kidneys & dissolve the salts & their precipitation is prevented.... High acid fod in some cases cause indigestion. pH of juice in stomach is very low[about 2-3]. Duodenum delays food entering it from the stomach if the pH is very low. Meat is acidic then Veg, hence we feel our stomach filled for more time when we eat meat than when we eat same amount of Veg food which is alkaline. This indigestion may result in vomiting, etc... As chyme stays longer in stomach with low pH, tendency to develop gastritis, ulcers increase. Amith.B.L[Undergraduate] Karnataka Institute of Medical Sciences, Hubli, Karnataka, India "The pH of gastric acid is 2-3 in the stomach lumen, the acidity being maintained by the proton pump, a H+/K+ ATPase. The parietal cell releases bicarbonate into the blood stream in the process, which causes the temporary rise of pH in the blood, known as alkaline tide." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastric_acid The above quote indicates that when acid is secreted in to the stomach, bicarbonate is released into the blood stream in the process, which causes the temporary rise of pH in the blood, known as alkaline tide. More acid can be secreted, if we take alkaline food or antacids(not acid blockers) and more bicarbonate will be released into the blood in this process. So it tells that when we take alkaline food or antacids, we make our blood alkaline, may be for some time which then body balances. Now when we take acidic foods, I think less HCl will be secreted resulting bicarbonate not released in blood. It tell us that alkaline foods or antacids are alkalinser to blood and urine whereas acidic foods are acidic. Is it ok? This is one mechanism. Other mechanism can be what we absorb and how those absorbed substances will effect to internal Ph? Under above considerations, how can you assess the effects from antacids and acid blockers(proton pump blockers etc.) on our internal pH? I think, it can be alkaline from antacids and nil or acidic from acid blockers. OK??? > If a person is living in high altitude where pO2 is very less, > he/she tend to breathe rapidly & lose CO2 from the body more than > normal. This results in acidosis, Hyperventilation causes a respiratory alkalosis, not acidosis. CO2 = acid as far as the body's concerned so getting rid of it is like getting rid of acidity. > which is taken care of by Kidneys.... > Kidneys are the powerful filtering organs in our body... They help in > maintaining Homeostasis. They break Water into H & OH with the help of > enzymes, Which enzymes are these? > High acid fod in some cases cause indigestion. pH of juice in > stomach is very low[about 2-3]. More like pH 1-2. > Duodenum delays food entering it from > the stomach if the pH is very low. Meat is acidic then Veg, hence we > feel our stomach filled for more time when we eat meat than when we eat > same amount of Veg food which is alkaline. This indigestion may result > in vomiting, etc... As chyme stays longer in stomach with low pH, > tendency to develop gastritis, ulcers increase. The acidity from foods is tiny compared to the acidity already in the gastric juice. Any effects occur after the food has been digested and absorbed. MattLB > > If a person is living in high altitude where pO2 is very less, > > he/she tend to breathe rapidly & lose CO2 from the body more than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > acid as far as the body's concerned so getting rid of it is like > getting rid of acidity. It's like herding cats with these people which is why I gave up. When stomach atmosphere is less acidic or slightly alkaline either due to alkaline foods or due to antacids, will more gastric acid not be secreted for neutrizing it? Is there any benefit in drinking ozonated water? Water treated with ozone gas.... What happens when ozone gas is introduce to our tap water? I know the fluoride & chlorine gets oxidised. What else? The water turns to H2O2 right? After boiling, does the H2O2 reverse to H2O since ozone can't remain soluble in water for long? Thanks... >Is there any benefit in drinking ozonated water? Water treated with >ozone gas.... What happens when ozone gas is introduce to our tap >water? I know the fluoride & chlorine gets oxidised. What else? The >water turns to H2O2 right? After boiling, does the H2O2 reverse to H2O >since ozone can't remain soluble in water for long? Thanks... Ozone, like chlorine, oxidizes organic matter, which is how both kill microbes in treated tap water. IIRC, ozonation is used instead of chlorination in many municipalities in Europe. The benefit of drinking ozonated tap water is more or less the same as drinking chlorinated tap water -- pathogens of water-borne diseases have been killed. Chlorine and ozone are added in parts-per-million quantities to purify tap water, so no, ozonation doesn't convert the tap water into H2O2 any more than chlorination turns tap water into laundry bleach. Ozonation is more expensive than chlorination (actually, most North American municipalities use chloramine, not chlorine, because it remains active in the water for longer) but there's some belief that the reaction products of chlorine with common organic pollutants may be carcinogenic. Nobody knows if this has any significant effect on incidence of cancer, but in some municipalities people are willing to pay for the difference in cost. IIRC, most of these are areas where the sources of tap water are heavily polluted with organics, notably the Rhine valley. Some of these municipalities have to use charcoal filtration to get the organics levels down to potable standards. My information may be out of date -- a lot of work has been done to clean up the Rhine and other European rivers, so I welcome correction from the knowledgable. If someone is trying to sell you ozonated water, or water ozonation equipment for its alleged health benefits, they are ripping you off, unless your water comes from a contaminated well, in which case I recommend you talk to your local public health people who can test your water and give you impartial advice. >>Is there any benefit in drinking ozonated water? Water treated with >>ozone gas.... What happens when ozone gas is introduce to our tap [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >ozonated tap water is more or less the same as drinking chlorinated >tap water -- pathogens of water-borne diseases have been killed. Ozone treatment is becoming more common in the US, but is far from universal. >Chlorine and ozone are added in parts-per-million quantities to >purify tap water, so no, ozonation doesn't convert the tap water [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the reaction products of chlorine with common organic pollutants may >be carcinogenic. I lean towards the belief that it is, albeit slightly; there is some decent evidence that it increases the odds of bladder cancer. Ozone hasn't simply replaced chlorination because it's expensive and your average water treatment district is not so flush with cash that they can just decide to rip out their working chlorination system and replace it. However, even if the cancer cases do rise a bit, we are weighing this against the costs of NOT treating the water, which would make your local water system a fine conduit for giving you typhoid, cholera, etc. >If someone is trying to sell you ozonated water, or water ozonation >equipment for its alleged health benefits, they are ripping you off, >unless your water comes from a contaminated well, in which case I >recommend you talk to your local public health people who can test >your water and give you impartial advice. Agreed. However, if you're someone who is worried about the presence of chlorine (and its byproducts) in your local water supply, filters will remove it. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me." -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth This is just some sort of urban myth. In old or "diseased" people, there can be lactic acid buildup because cells are stressed and can't produce energy effectively - that is a reality. You can read about it in the scientific literature. It is more likely that old people who have not stressed their bodies to a considerable degree are lacking in stomach acid production. This can lead to very real physiological imbalances and deficiencies. Taking calcium carbonate supplements, as many old people do, with too little stomach acid production, is a proverbial recipe for disaster, for instance. But to Kumar: why not do some research of your own on www.pubmed.com - just type in some key words and start reading through the abstracts. Then ask questions here. Otherwise, you are wasting your time on all the oddball claims there are these days. It's true that sometimes the establishment gets things very wrong, as in the "essential fatty acid" claim, though no one even is willing to state it as a hypothesis, so it's difficult to say exactly what they are contending, but the evidence is there, and the data is usually accurate. It's the interpretations that are all too often inconsistent with the raw data. > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Whether these create somewhat opposite pH/water effects in digestive > tract and in internal enviroinment? Your kidneys are able to excrete excess acid and base. So you don't need to worry about the pH of foods and drinks. Your kidneys handle this automatically. Jeff > Best wishes. >> We occasionally hear that some foods is acidic, alkaline or >> water-attracting. Sometimes, these are acid, alkaline forming and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >worry about the pH of foods and drinks. Your kidneys handle this >automatically. Jeff, I wonder if the poster is asking in the context of stones in the urinary tract, where, depending on the type of stone, modifying the pH or mineral content of the urine may be useful. > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Best wishes. People twist normal physiology around in order to sell things. Sort of like the phrase "reverse osmosis". It's like using the word gravity and then inventing anti-gravity. |
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