Medical Forum / General / General / December 2005
universal health care for U.S. Krugman NYTimes
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fresh~horses - 08 Nov 2005 01:02 GMT "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."
OPINION Pride, Prejudice, Insurance By PAUL KRUGMAN Published: November 7, 2005
General Motors is reducing retirees' medical benefits. Delphi has declared bankruptcy, and will probably reduce workers' benefits as well as their wages. An internal Wal-Mart memo describes plans to cut health costs by hiring temporary workers, who aren't entitled to health insurance, and screening out employees likely to have high medical bills.
These aren't isolated anecdotes. Employment-based health insurance is the only serious source of coverage for Americans too young to receive Medicare and insufficiently destitute to receive Medicaid, but it's an institution in decline. Between 2000 and 2004 the number of Americans under 65 rose by 10 million. Yet the number of nonelderly Americans covered by employment-based insurance fell by 4.9 million.
The funny thing is that the solution -- national health insurance, available to everyone -- is obvious. But to see the obvious we'll have to overcome pride -- the unwarranted belief that America has nothing to learn from other countries -- and prejudice -- the equally unwarranted belief, driven by ideology, that private insurance is more efficient than public insurance.
Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country.
In 2002 the United States spent $5,267 per person on health care. Canada spent $2,931; Germany spent $2,817; Britain spent only $2,160. Yet the United States has lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality than any of these countries.
But don't people in other countries sometimes find it hard to get medical treatment? Yes, sometimes -- but so do Americans. No, Virginia, many Americans can't count on ready access to high-quality medical care.
The journal Health Affairs recently published the results of a survey of the medical experience of ''sicker adults'' in six countries, including Canada, Britain, Germany and the United States. The responses don't support claims about superior service from the U.S. system. It's true that Americans generally have shorter waits for elective surgery than Canadians or Britons, although German waits are even shorter. But Americans do worse by some important measures: we find it harder than citizens of other advanced countries to see a doctor when we need one, and our system is more, not less, rife with medical errors.
Above all, Americans are far more likely than others to forgo treatment because they can't afford it. Forty percent of the Americans surveyed failed to fill a prescription because of cost. A third were deterred by cost from seeing a doctor when sick or from getting recommended tests or follow-up.
Why does American medicine cost so much yet achieve so little? Unlike other advanced countries, we treat access to health care as a privilege rather than a right. And this attitude turns out to be inefficient as well as cruel.
The U.S. system is much more bureaucratic, with much higher administrative costs, than those of other countries, because private insurers and other players work hard at trying not to pay for medical care. And our fragmented system is unable to bargain with drug companies and other suppliers for lower prices.
Taiwan, which moved 10 years ago from a U.S.-style system to a Canadian-style single-payer system, offers an object lesson in the economic advantages of universal coverage. In 1995 less than 60 percent of Taiwan's residents had health insurance; by 2001 the number was 97 percent. Yet according to a careful study published in Health Affairs two years ago, this huge expansion in coverage came virtually free: it led to little if any increase in overall health care spending beyond normal growth due to rising population and incomes.
Before you dismiss Taiwan as a faraway place of which we know nothing, remember Chile-mania: just a few months ago, during the Bush administration's failed attempt to privatize Social Security, commentators across the country -- independent thinkers all, I'm sure -- joined in a chorus of ill-informed praise for Chile's private retirement accounts. (It turns out that Chile's system has a lot of problems.) Taiwan has more people and a much bigger economy than Chile, and its experience is a lot more relevant to America's real problems.
The economic and moral case for health care reform in America, reform that would make us less different from other advanced countries, is overwhelming. One of these days we'll realize that our semiprivatized system isn't just unfair, it's far less efficient than a straightforward system of guaranteed health insurance.
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/tsc.html?URI=http://select.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/ opinion/07krugman.html&OQ=hpQ26orefQ3Dlogin&OP=2d5f84d0Q2FEib8EQ3Bo@Q3DQ3DQ3BEQ3 CffQ7DEGGEfeEQ3DQ3EIuIQ3DuEfec@Q3ADUCuSQ51Q3BUQ3F
fairuse
george conklin - 08 Nov 2005 01:26 GMT > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country." [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > > fairuse What about Medicare for All Ages?
Skeptic - 08 Nov 2005 03:25 GMT > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country." Seems odd to start with a false premise.
David Wright - 08 Nov 2005 03:46 GMT >> "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends >> more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country." > >Seems odd to start with a false premise. Not at all. It's elementary in logic -- if you start with a false premise, you can prove anything.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me." -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
notritenoteri - 08 Nov 2005 12:48 GMT So rather than gainsaying me offer some evidence to illustrate your conjectures.I will even tell you stats that I would find acceptable if you want but you can chose your own for starters.
> >> "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends > >> more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country." [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me." > -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth fresh~horses - 08 Nov 2005 03:47 GMT > > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends > > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country." > > Seems odd to start with a false premise. You haven't been paying attention;
http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.med/msg/4f1a671c6655fe08
http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.med/msg/7c92ea49847ce777
http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.med/msg/c8b126165fdd55a2
Skeptic - 08 Nov 2005 05:05 GMT >> > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends >> > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country." >> >> Seems odd to start with a false premise. > > You haven't been paying attention; Incorrect. You just dont' have your facts straight. The medical care provided in the United States is the best in the world. So the QUALITY of care is unsurpassed. We don't have an expansive coverage system as do many other countries, so the QUANTITY of care is less. So the typical benchmarks like overall mortality are artificially lowered since the American society - not medical profession - has chosen to not insure/cover all of its citizens. But if you're going to talk "results" then that is an issue of quality, not quantity, and insofar as that is concerned, the above statement is simply not accurate.
fresh~horses - 08 Nov 2005 05:16 GMT > >> > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends > >> > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country." [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Incorrect. You just dont' have your facts straight. They aren't MY facts. They're yours. As in; one American science writer, one American journalist and one American former NEJM editor. And they didn't make up the stats. Those again, are yours.
> The medical care > provided in the United States is the best in the world. Apparently not.
So the QUALITY of
> care is unsurpassed. If quality of HEALTHCARE is to improve health...again, apparently not.
We don't have an expansive coverage system as do many
> other countries, so the QUANTITY of care is less. So the typical benchmarks > like overall mortality are artificially lowered since the American society - > not medical profession - has chosen to not insure/cover all of its citizens. > But if you're going to talk "results" then that is an issue of quality, not > quantity, and insofar as that is concerned, the above statement is simply > not accurate. The patient died but the operation was a success.
Skeptic - 08 Nov 2005 05:34 GMT We differ on less than you think. We're just talking about different issues. What you're talking about is access to care ... how many people get covered. Some people look at this as a benchmark for "quality" but I find that totally inappropriate and utterly misrepresentative of the stellar care given in the USA. I'm not saying I like or dislike or agree or disagree with that system - but it's a societal and political system. If you want to evaluate the actual quality of care given then you look at outcomes - for example treatment of prostate cancer. We do just as well or better than any other country. Our surgeons operate as well or better, our radiation and medical oncologists are on the forefront with the latest treatments. That is top notch quality of care. It's not done better anywhere else, period. Ah... but you know is? Screeing for said prosate cancer. We have 65 year old black, below the poverty line men who are probably walking around with prostate cancer in a curative stage but it won't be found ... until they turn up in the ER at some point in urinary retention or spinal cord compression. Yes, that is a huge problem, but it is a critique of American culture, not the quality of care given by doctors, nurses, technicians, etc.
>> >> > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends >> >> > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country." [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > The patient died but the operation was a success. fresh~horses - 08 Nov 2005 05:46 GMT > We differ on less than you think. We're just talking about different > issues. What you're talking about is access to care ... how many people get [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > medical oncologists are on the forefront with the latest treatments. That > is top notch quality of care. It's not done better anywhere else, period. If you have 100 people and only 33 get this top notch care, you've failed. And what's more, you're a lot like a cuckolded husband; everyone knows but you.
> Ah... but you know is? Screeing for said prosate cancer. We have 65 year > old black, below the poverty line men who are probably walking around with > prostate cancer in a curative stage but it won't be found ... until they > turn up in the ER at some point in urinary retention or spinal cord > compression. Yes, that is a huge problem, but it is a critique of American > culture, not the quality of care given by doctors, nurses, technicians, etc. A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are inseparable.
> >> >> > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends > >> >> > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country." [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > > > The patient died but the operation was a success. Happy Dog - 08 Nov 2005 06:28 GMT "fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>> We differ on less than you think. We're just talking about different >> issues. What you're talking about is access to care ... how many people [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > failed. And what's more, you're a lot like a cuckolded husband; > everyone knows but you. Depends on why the other 67 didn't. I suspect that it's because they had to pay for it and couldn't or didn't. Just like you. You genuinely belive that you're worth a handout because you have special social status. orrect?
>> Ah... but you know is? Screeing for said prosate cancer. We have 65 >> year [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are > inseparable. Why? Can you think of *anyone* who doesn't deserve medical care paid by the government? I know you won't answer this. But, it's a curious question.
moo
Twittering One - 08 Nov 2005 06:42 GMT ... and if it's paid for, What is the quality delivered?
I was handcuffed and forcibly sedated In Bellevue, when I insisted my history of sexual abuse be included in the report.
george conklin - 08 Nov 2005 12:37 GMT > "fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in >>> We differ on less than you think. We're just talking about different [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > belive that you're worth a handout because you have special social status. > orrect? Even if you spend 100% of your savings, your house and your insurance, you will do no better than if you lived in Europe.
Herman Rubin - 08 Nov 2005 16:38 GMT >"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in ....................
>> A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are >> inseparable.
>Why? Can you think of *anyone* who doesn't deserve medical care paid by the >government? I know you won't answer this. But, it's a curious question. Having the government provide "medical care" for everyone will necessarily result in rationing and the other ills which come with that. Medical care is EXPENSIVE, and the resources are not there, and will not be there.
The individual must decide among the alternatives, and this means that governments and "insurance companies" must not have a say. The evaluation of the results is highly idiosyncratic, and even leaving the decisions in the hands of physicians and medical societies is wrong.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Peter White - 08 Nov 2005 17:15 GMT >>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > must not have a say. The evaluation of the results is > highly idiosyncratic, What does this particular bit of your load of sh.t mean?
and even leaving the decisions in
> the hands of physicians and medical societies is wrong. notritenoteri - 08 Nov 2005 17:55 GMT It means that the stupid and the poor should be left at the wayside just like they are now unless of course they can be used as cannon fodder to protect USA oil supplies.
> >>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > and even leaving the decisions in > > the hands of physicians and medical societies is wrong. george conklin - 08 Nov 2005 18:06 GMT >>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > What does this particular bit of your load of sh.t mean? Only libertarians know the translation. -:)
notritenoteri - 08 Nov 2005 19:42 GMT LIbertarians seem to be all hot and moist about what I would call controlled anarchy. In other words as long as they get their beaks in the trough the system is OK
> >>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Only libertarians know the translation. -:) george conklin - 08 Nov 2005 21:35 GMT >> >>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in >> >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > anarchy. In other words as long as they get their beaks in the trough the > system is OK Please stop top posting.
notritenoteri - 08 Nov 2005 22:51 GMT Sorry dude its my thing!
> >> >>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Please stop top posting. Herman Rubin - 08 Nov 2005 18:32 GMT >>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in ....................
>>>>A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are >>>>inseparable.
>>>Why? Can you think of *anyone* who doesn't deserve medical care paid by the >>>government? I know you won't answer this. But, it's a curious question. Why should the government pay for medical care any more than food or clothing or housing? Why should there not be differences in the amount and type of medical care based on the ability to pay? We have a scarce commodity here, and there is no reason not to allow differences.
>> Having the government provide "medical care" for everyone >> will necessarily result in rationing and the other ills >> which come with that. Medical care is EXPENSIVE, and the >> resources are not there, and will not be there.
>> The individual must decide among the alternatives, and >> this means that governments and "insurance companies" >> must not have a say. The evaluation of the results is >> highly idiosyncratic,
>What does this particular bit of your load of sh.t mean? To try to put it into words of few syllables, it is up to you to take the chances of the various sets of outcomes into account, according to YOUR values. The doctor gives you the odds, not just of recovery or survival, but of the costs and changes in your life style forced by the treatment, and YOU have to decide which "lottery" you like better. Don't ask for more; you cannot get it.
> and even leaving the decisions in >> the hands of physicians and medical societies is wrong.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Peter White - 08 Nov 2005 18:41 GMT Moron
>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> >>>the hands of physicians and medical societies is wrong. george conklin - 08 Nov 2005 21:37 GMT >>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Why should the government pay for medical care any more than > food or clothing or housing? Because Herman people eat about the same amount every day. It is not like illness, which comes at us with a great surprise and takes everything you own. If we all pay into the pool, then it is not 'government.' It is universal. And that is ONLY way to even out the costs of illness. All other industrialized nations know this. Even Taiwan knows this according to the article.
notritenoteri - 08 Nov 2005 23:31 GMT Why is it you people seem to see the govt as something that is evil and separate from the people? The people are the govt and vice versa. As soon as two people live in proximity there is an implicit govt. Why is it perfectly acceptable in USA for the little guy who has squat to be patriotic and fight and die for the likes of Kenny Lay and Bill Gates, yet having people like that pay to keep the little guy healthy so he can die is such an anathema? Strange!
> >>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > other industrialized nations know this. Even Taiwan knows this according to > the article. Peter White - 08 Nov 2005 23:35 GMT Yes when their slaves were actual chattel they were much better looked after. God damn Lincoln, he took away the security of the basics of life from the common man, he freed some of them.
> Why is it you people seem to see the govt as something that is evil and > separate from the people? The people are the govt and vice versa. As soon [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >>the article. notritenoteri - 09 Nov 2005 00:38 GMT Yah but the noble bastard didn't want to he needed cannon fodder.
If only Joe McCarthy or Curt Lemay had made it to president.
> Yes when their slaves were actual chattel they were much better > looked after. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > > >>the article. Herman Rubin - 09 Nov 2005 21:09 GMT >Why is it you people seem to see the govt as something that is evil and >separate from the people? "When the government fears the people, you have freedom.
When the people fear the government, you have tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Herman Rubin - 09 Nov 2005 20:31 GMT >>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in ....................
>>>>>>A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are >>>>>>inseparable.
>>>>>Why? Can you think of *anyone* who doesn't deserve medical care paid by >>>>>the >>>>>government? I know you won't answer this. But, it's a curious >>>>>question.
>> Why should the government pay for medical care any more than >> food or clothing or housing?
> Because Herman people eat about the same amount every day. It is not >like illness, which comes at us with a great surprise and takes everything >you own. If we all pay into the pool, then it is not 'government.' It is >universal. And that is ONLY way to even out the costs of illness. All >other industrialized nations know this. Even Taiwan knows this according to >the article. I have advocated major medical insurance. And if we pay into the pool EQUALLY, and receive benefits EQUALLY, it is real insurance. If one pays in more, normally one gets more; in a health insurance situation, the maximum would be MUCH more. Look at the costs of home insurance.
It is socialism to "even out" the costs of ANYTHING. I can see providing free medical care to control infectious diseases, to protect the others. But this is not the case of most diseases.
And we have seen what happens when governments decide what should be covered. There was a case of a woman who lost her vocal cords to cancer; they would not provide a voice box so she could become an effective tax-paying worker; it was not "necessary".
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
notritenoteri - 09 Nov 2005 21:51 GMT Yah when US governments getinvolved a whole new industry of advocacy is created!
> >>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University > hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 george conklin - 09 Nov 2005 21:59 GMT >>>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > she could become an effective tax-paying worker; it was not > "necessary". george conklin - 09 Nov 2005 22:02 GMT >>>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > she could become an effective tax-paying worker; it was not > "necessary". Herman, by definition insurance means someone gets more out than they put in. That is what insurance is all about. Major medical insurance is ok? There is really no difference between that an insurance which covers more. The real issue is that none of us knows how serious our medical problems are going to be before we die. That is why we must have national pool. As for your comment, "It is socialism to 'even out' the costs of anything....that is what insurance is for. It is not socialism at all. As for what is covered, should we let a HMO decide what can be covered using the terms, "Medically necessary," which means anything? I don't think so.
Robert - 09 Nov 2005 22:33 GMT "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message
> is what insurance is for. It is not socialism at all. As for what is > covered, should we let a HMO decide what can be covered using the terms, > "Medically necessary," which means anything? I don't think so. Get another insurance then. If the government decides for all, their is no recourse.
Every bad point about insurance that you raise is solidified without recourse when the government provides it. It is seen in Medicare and in Medicaid. If you are totally dependent on Medicare and it is not covered then you are screwed. If you don't like HMO's and your insurance provides an option for preferred doctor list but pay a little more then go for that. We already have universal coverage. Those that can't pay have government coverage and those who can have private insurance. You want to screw everybody by having government take over the whole thing.
george conklin - 09 Nov 2005 23:16 GMT > "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Get another insurance then. If the government decides for all, their is no > recourse. Individuals cannot pick different insurance carriers. They ALL say, "Medically Necessary" procedures are covered. That term has no meaning at all and it leaves each HMO to decide isses AFTER you get sick, never, never before.
Robert - 09 Nov 2005 23:54 GMT "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message
> Individuals cannot pick different insurance carriers. They ALL say, > "Medically Necessary" procedures are covered. That term has no meaning at > all and it leaves each HMO to decide isses AFTER you get sick, never, never > before. That's true and is it different when the government says "medically necessary"? Yes it is as you can sue in one but you have to go to the politicians for the other. Which would you rather go to?
Herman Rubin - 10 Nov 2005 16:57 GMT >> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message
>>> is what insurance is for. It is not socialism at all. As for what is >>> covered, should we let a HMO decide what can be covered using the terms, >>> "Medically necessary," which means anything? I don't think so.
>> Get another insurance then. If the government decides for all, their is no >> recourse.
> Individuals cannot pick different insurance carriers. They ALL say, >"Medically Necessary" procedures are covered. That term has no meaning at >all and it leaves each HMO to decide isses AFTER you get sick, never, never >before. Not all is done through HMOs. Many have "in network" providers, which actually consists of a large set of physicians and hospitals, and "out of network" providers for the rest. We also have a choice of plans, which have different rates for in network and out of network expenses.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 19:15 GMT >>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > have different rates for in network and out of network > expenses. Maybe YOU have a choice because you work for the state. Most people do not. Neither my wife or I have had any choices for years. There is one plan and that is it.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 19:47 GMT University types live in a sheltered workshop environment. I know I was in it for many many years. Its not the real world only a pale imitation.
> >>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > not. Neither my wife or I have had any choices for years. There is one > plan and that is it. george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 19:53 GMT >> >>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message >> > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > University types live in a sheltered workshop environment. I know I was in > it for many many years. Its not the real world only a pale imitation. Not all of us are so narrow.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 21:08 GMT Oh!
> >> >>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > >> > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Not all of us are so narrow. Robert - 10 Nov 2005 23:41 GMT > University types live in a sheltered workshop environment. I know I was in > it for many many years. Its not the real world only a pale >imitation. And you learned this from the killing fields in Cambodia? You still have that little red bandana on your neck from your years of lining up doctors and intellectuals and running out of the city?
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 23:54 GMT NAh we just tied jaws shut and they blew up naturally from a buildup of pressure from hot gases. HOw did we miss you ?
> > University types live in a sheltered workshop environment. I know I was in > > it for many many years. Its not the real world only a pale >imitation. > > And you learned this from the killing fields in Cambodia? > You still have that little red bandana on your neck from your years of > lining up doctors and intellectuals and running out of the city? Robert - 10 Nov 2005 23:37 GMT > Maybe YOU have a choice because you work for the state. Most people do > not. Neither my wife or I have had any choices for years. There is one > plan and that is it. And you are so unhappy with not having a choice that you want everybody in the countlry not to have a choice also by having one single payer system. Nice logic.
Herman Rubin - 12 Nov 2005 22:58 GMT >>>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message ..................
>> Not all is done through HMOs. Many have "in network" >> providers, which actually consists of a large set of >> physicians and hospitals, and "out of network" providers >> for the rest. We also have a choice of plans, which >> have different rates for in network and out of network >> expenses.
> Maybe YOU have a choice because you work for the state. Most people do >not. Neither my wife or I have had any choices for years. There is one >plan and that is it. Again, I do not work for the state. Universities have a great deal of autonomy, except now in deciding which drugs are in the formulary, taken over by the state.
An insurance company does most of the administration for the insurance, but the actual payments come out of the Purdue general fund. The choice is for an HMO, or one of several schedules, depending on how much is "in network" and how much is not.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
notritenoteri - 09 Nov 2005 23:53 GMT You are such a little man. Why don't you pick up your spear and leave? If you hit your limit on private insurance you are screwed too so what is your point? If all pigs were equal you statement about government coverage and private insurance would be true. Unfortunately all pigs are not equal For example I'm a f.ck of a lot smarter than you and I can extract the maximum available out of the system. On the other hand there are many such as you who are too stupid to walk and chew gum at the same time. In fact you have a number of them in high office. Are you suggesting that they just be abandoned by the roadside so to speak?
> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > coverage and those who can have private insurance. > You want to screw everybody by having government take over the whole thing. Herman Rubin - 10 Nov 2005 02:57 GMT >>>>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>> ....................
>>>>>>>>A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are >>>>>>>>inseparable.
>>>>>>>Why? Can you think of *anyone* who doesn't deserve medical care paid >>>>>>>by >>>>>>>the >>>>>>>government? I know you won't answer this. But, it's a curious >>>>>>>question.
>>>> Why should the government pay for medical care any more than >>>> food or clothing or housing?
>>> Because Herman people eat about the same amount every day. It is not >>>like illness, which comes at us with a great surprise and takes everything [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>to >>>the article.
>> I have advocated major medical insurance. And if we pay into >> the pool EQUALLY, and receive benefits EQUALLY, it is real >> insurance. If one pays in more, normally one gets more; in >> a health insurance situation, the maximum would be MUCH more. >> Look at the costs of home insurance.
>> It is socialism to "even out" the costs of ANYTHING. I can >> see providing free medical care to control infectious diseases, >> to protect the others. But this is not the case of most >> diseases.
>> And we have seen what happens when governments decide what >> should be covered. There was a case of a woman who lost her >> vocal cords to cancer; they would not provide a voice box so >> she could become an effective tax-paying worker; it was not >> "necessary".
> Herman, by definition insurance means someone gets more out than they put >in. That is what insurance is all about. Agreed. But the relation between what one puts in and what one gets out is not a function of income at either end.
If you own a house, the premiums for a given type of insurance will be the same if you are George Conklin or Bill Gates. Your automobile insurance cost will depend on your driving record and where you live; you will not pay more if you are a millionaire, and not get more in the event of an accident if you are poor.
Major medical insurance is ok?
Major medical insurance is insurance against unforeseen rare events. Its premium depends on the person's health at the time of taking out the policy, and for a given premium, the amount received does not depend on income.
Find a non-governmental insurance program which is not of this type, from Allstate to Lloyds.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Robert - 09 Nov 2005 22:24 GMT "Herman Rubin" <hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu> wrote in
> And we have seen what happens when governments decide what > should be covered. There was a case of a woman who lost her > vocal cords to cancer; they would not provide a voice box so > she could become an effective tax-paying worker; it was not > "necessary". Canada doesn't even cover long term home health care by the government. It is too costly.
george conklin - 09 Nov 2005 23:17 GMT > "Herman Rubin" <hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu> wrote in >> And we have seen what happens when governments decide what [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Canada doesn't even cover long term home health care by the government. It > is too costly. Medicare does not cover long-term home health care either. If you go broke and have no assets, Medicaid can cover your nursing home care.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Nov 2005 00:00 GMT > Medicare does not cover long-term home health care either. If you go > broke and have no assets, Medicaid can cover your nursing home care. Medicare covers 99 days of nursing home care, as well, but no more.
SBH
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 06:15 GMT So now 3 months is long term?
> > Medicare does not cover long-term home health care either. If you go > > broke and have no assets, Medicaid can cover your nursing home care. > > Medicare covers 99 days of nursing home care, as well, but no more. > > SBH Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Nov 2005 20:40 GMT > So now 3 months is long term? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > SBH Never said it was. Long term *home health* care was discussed. Somebody put in that medicare covered nursing homes. I put in additional information that your first 3 months of nursing home is courtesty medicare, so long as you meet the age or disability requirements. After that, you're on your own to show financial need (medicaid).
SBH
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 00:02 GMT "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > Medicare does not cover long-term home health care either. If you go
> broke and have no assets, Medicaid can cover your nursing home care. Medicare is not a national healthcare system for all. It is cheaper for home healthcare and Canada does not provide a cent for that coverage in terms of long term. Hospice, yes, or short term yes. My point is it really isn't socialized medicine. It cherry picks as much as insurance companies do. They don't want to cover those costs so they don't. Some countries cover dentistry and Canada does not. They are selective on who and what they cover and still give this moral lecture about it's position.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 06:16 GMT We wouldn't dare give you a lecture of any kind since you know all the answers.
> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > Medicare does not > cover long-term home health care either. If you go [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > not. They are selective on who and what they cover and still give this moral > lecture about it's position. george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 12:22 GMT >> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > Medicare does not >> cover long-term home health care either. If you go [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > We wouldn't dare give you a lecture of any kind since you know all the > answers. People getting rich off the current system will find fault with anything that does not pay them as well as they get now with the so-called 'free enterprise' medicine. But we do not have free enterprise medicine at all. What we have is price-administered medicine, with the insurance companies going along just fine, as long as they get a 'discount.' So there is a 1-year delay in the price rise for insurance companies.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 13:13 GMT Interesting observation. I'm old enough to remember when doctors made house calls. Now that was customer service, a waste of resources perhaps but the service, even though in a lot of cases when it was just confirmation of what you already knew, "Little Dorothy is on her way down the yellow brick road", was really customer oriented. Now "Little Dorothy" can be kept above room temp waiting at the head of the road so to speak for months, but she's got to do it at the convenience of the quacks. Is it really that much of an improvement?
The real irony is that the current position, is to a large degree the result of union activities in the guise of the *MAs whose members scream and yell about how private enterprise they are and how abhorrent it is for unions to hold up the consumer. I love the likes of some screaming about the evils of inclusive insurance and how everyone should pay when he is living off the fat of the land at Purdue. I was an inmate and keeper at a University for many years and the one where I was, likely run of the mill in terms of benefits, rather than an exception, had superb healthcare plans. The coverage was unreal and the premiums a give-away. Then there is self-professed doctor. Is he really? If he is, he certainly reinforces the perception some of the victims of Medicine have of the profession. It is very hard to be a believer when the first thing that goes is honesty. He claims you need an experience more that once to be cognizant of its ramifications I wonder how many times he's been put on the green mile? Not last but tending to least is the "janitor". His main interest seems to in minimizing cost and maximizing his benefits, ME-ME philosophy. The other day I figured out how to substantially improve his cost/ benefit experience. Eat those who peg out as a result of inability to pay for healthcare! It is cost effective, in line with the environmental movement of recycle and should help relieve the distress and angst that the poor generate in those who are not poor. Just like Milo Minderbinder said, "everybody has a share" or something like that. How does the richest nation that the world has ever seen, support the disenfranchisement of a large part of its population? Are we still only smart enough to just keep moving our genes forward? If that is where are then we really aren't any smarter than bacteria.
> >> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > Medicare does not > >> cover long-term home health care either. If you go [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > going along just fine, as long as they get a 'discount.' So there is a > 1-year delay in the price rise for insurance companies. george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 13:53 GMT >> >> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > Medicare does > not [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > an > improvement? I am not sure what you mean here. My grandfather did house calls right up to the end (he was 84). I used to ride along with him on Xmas day after we opened the presents. He never used to like to sit at home.
> The real irony is that the current position, is to a large degree the > result > of union activities in the guise of the *MAs whose members scream and yell > about how private enterprise they are and how abhorrent it is for unions > to > hold up the consumer. Calling the AMA what it really is, the nation's most greedy union, gets the boys mad. They say it is only a professional association. Ok, the nation's most greedy association of whatever kind. But it has given us medicine at twice the average for an industrialization nation, and has left 45 million out of the insurance scheme. If you subtract out Medicare and Medicaid, it would be 120 million. And remeber the AMA hates Medicare too.
> I love the likes of some screaming about the evils of inclusive insurance > and how everyone should pay when he is living off the fat of the land at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > exception, had superb healthcare plans. The coverage was unreal and the > premiums a give-away. I asked Herman once if he hates public education and public benefits so strongly, why did he not teach at a private university? He responded that they were just as dependent on Federal grants, so it made no difference.
> Then there is self-professed doctor. Is he really? If he is, he > certainly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of its ramifications I wonder how many times he's been put on the green > mile? Some of us are easily identified, but others might be high school students posting as MDs.
> Not last but tending to least is the "janitor". Same comment as above. We have no idea who some of these people are.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 18:52 GMT Are you agreeing with my observations? I think one of the reasons thinking Canadians are opposed to USA style medicne is because they fear exactly the results that you observe. Our system is not perfect and can be substantially improved. It will require a new paradigm for the practioners at all skill levels and the injection of a lot of startup money. THat is the down side. On the up side we are in a much better position with a mostly single payer system than the USA is to achieve the same ends. Unfortunately for the likes of Robert and Harris the USA system appears to be the worst possible for re-engineering.
> >> >> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > Medicare does > > not [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > Same comment as above. We have no idea who some of these people are. Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Nov 2005 20:56 GMT > Calling the AMA what it really is, the nation's most greedy union, gets > the boys mad. They say it is only a professional association. Ok, the > nation's most greedy association of whatever kind. But it has given us > medicine at twice the average for an industrialization nation, and has left > 45 million out of the insurance scheme. If you subtract out Medicare and > Medicaid, it would be 120 million. No, for the 45 million are covered by a $300 billion dollar medicaid program.
> And remeber the AMA hates Medicare too. Not any more :)
> I asked Herman once if he hates public education and public benefits so > strongly, why did he not teach at a private university? He responded that > they were just as dependent on Federal grants, so it made no difference. Herman could work at BYU, where they tell the feds to shove their grants (and the strings that come attached to them).
Would you consider converting to Mormonism, Herman? Or do you already belong to the official religion of federal government grant-getters, which I believe is of the Hebraic persuation.
SBH
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 21:20 GMT Oh the goyem are getting restive!
> > Calling the AMA what it really is, the nation's most greedy union, gets > > the boys mad. They say it is only a professional association. Ok, the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > SBH Herman Rubin - 13 Nov 2005 02:50 GMT In article <SQOcf.2978$XR4.8962@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
I seem to have erased the initial article, but I found the response I am replying to Dr. Harris's comments.
....................
>> Herman could work at BYU, where they tell the feds to shove their >> grants (and the strings that come attached to them).
>> Would you consider converting to Mormonism, Herman? Or do you already >> belong to the official religion of federal government grant-getters, >> which I believe is of the Hebraic persuation. I have had grants, but do not have any now, although I probably could get them. My research is of the type that would not be restricted by grants.
I have also pointed out many times that the government grant system has greatly done it basic research. Basic research cannot be done according to proposals saying what one expects to find. At this time, there are few faculty able to teach strong advanced courses in statistics; probability is still surviving fairly well.
Another problem with grants is that new faculty are almost forced to specialize. I know of no strong statistician in that category.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Skeptic - 10 Nov 2005 14:00 GMT > Interesting observation. I'm old enough to remember when doctors made > house calls. Now that was customer service, Sure was. I can't even imagine having so few patients to see in the course of a day that I'd have time to go around to people's houses. Since that time, all we've seen is the workload for doctors steadily increase while their reimbursements fall and their malpractice premiums skyrocket.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 14:03 GMT >> Interesting observation. I'm old enough to remember when doctors made >> house calls. Now that was customer service, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that time, all we've seen is the workload for doctors steadily increase > while their reimbursements fall and their malpractice premiums skyrocket. The number of doctors has steadily INCREASED since the house call disappeared.
Skeptic - 10 Nov 2005 16:07 GMT >>> Interesting observation. I'm old enough to remember when doctors made >>> house calls. Now that was customer service, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The number of doctors has steadily INCREASED since the house call > disappeared. And what do you think the population of America has done?
Decades ago, we increased our supply of doctors. In more recent years, the supply of new doctors has only pulled equal with those retiring, creating steadily increasing work burdens since the population continues to increase. Furthermore, the intentionally added physicians from the 60's through 80's are going to start retiring soon ... and at alarming rates and we're going to be facing shortages when that happens.
But George, let's see what the FACTS have to say on this issue. Here is the absolute latest from the WHO.
Physicians per 100,000 people:
Canada 189 UK 213 Australia 247 USA 279 Spain 301 Norway 311 Netherlands 315 Finland 319 Sweden 326 Portugal 326 France 335 Germany 337 Austria 338 Switzerland 362 Belgium 448 Italy 619
And what about the rate of population increases around the world?
The growth rate in the USA is 2 times faster than Denmark, Portugal, Netherlands, or Greece, 3 times faster than France, Belgium, Switzerland, or Enland, 4 times faster than Japan, Austria, Finland or Sweden, and 9 times faster than Germany or Italy.
Of all the countries listed, only Australia has a faster growth rate and only 20% faster.
So a relatively static number of physicians... and that is likely to decrease with the boomers getting ready to start retiring but one of the fastest growing populations of the countries we are commonly compared to for medical issues, coupled with what is already one of the LOWEST doctor to citizen ratios...
Those are the facts. You can spew your drivel all you like - I'll stick with facts.
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 18:12 GMT "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per 100,000 people:
> Canada 189 > UK 213 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Belgium 448 > Italy 619 Canada can be proud on how they are keeping their GNP down with healthcare. They export doctors so that number is different in that one should ask how many doctors graduating from med school in which Canada has the highest.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 19:05 GMT > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per 100,000 > people: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > They export doctors so that number is different in that one should ask how > many doctors graduating from med school in which Canada has the highest. Canada also sends us needed nurses we don't want to train. The ANA closed down most of the hospital-based training programs and now we don't have enough nurses. Had the ANA not existed, we would not have a nursing shortage.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 19:52 GMT You're going to be in deep do-do then cause a lot of Cnadian nurses are at retirement age and the new crop is pretty small. Students are getting smarter too. Until doctors stop treating nurses like sh.t there aren't very many going into the field.
> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per 100,000 > > people: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > enough nurses. Had the ANA not existed, we would not have a nursing > shortage. george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 20:06 GMT >> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per 100,000 >> > people: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > very > many going into the field. After I got married, my wife (a RN) worked 14 nights without a single night off because they kept insisting she do it. And the President of the AMA was a big wheel at that hospital too. But working conditions for the nurses were not even considered then, nor are they now. Nixon noted we do not have a nursing shortage, but merely a shortage of nurses who are willing to work with the conditions found at hospitals. Then with her next job she worked surgical west at Presbyterian Hospital in PA (now part of HUP). Nurses change shift at 3:30, but the med school sent the students and residents through at 3:00. So the day shift had to stay on until all orders were taken off, and processed, etc. She never really finished until 5:30, but there was no overtime permitted. So they worked off the clock while I sat in the waiting area to walk her home (bad neighborhood). After she quit, they hired two nurses to take her place, but I am sure no one got through on time. Why were the shifts not adjusted? You know, doctors are king and they do as they want. Things are no better now.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 21:22 GMT Same sh.t here. Nurses are niggers!
> >> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per 100,000 > >> > people: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > through on time. Why were the shifts not adjusted? You know, doctors are > king and they do as they want. Things are no better now. Robert - 10 Nov 2005 23:45 GMT > Same sh.t here. Nurses are niggers! What kind of work do you do? Please tell all.
notritenoteri - 11 Nov 2005 13:17 GMT I don't boy. I just cash cheques every month, those that aren't direct deposit!
> > Same sh.t here. Nurses are niggers! > > What kind of work do you do? Please tell all. Skeptic - 11 Nov 2005 00:01 GMT >>> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per >>> > 100,000 [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > AMA was a big wheel at that hospital too. But working conditions for the > nurses were not even considered then, nor are they now. I don't know what backwards hick hospital you're referring to... but of the ones I've worked at that has never been remotely true. I'm not saying it never was, I don't know. But recently I think you'd be hard pressed to find that at many places in the US especially with the shortage and the unions.
notritenoteri - 11 Nov 2005 13:55 GMT Not the evil unions? They are truly despicable. Imagine it, people joining together to achieve sufficient power to gain reasonable working conditions for the participants. It is truly un-American or even un-Canadian. Not like the CMA or AMA which are just benevolent associations interested only having piss-ups and orgies called conventions. Anyone in a hospital below senior administrators or MD is treated like second class citizens. Administrators attempt to operate outside contracts and doctors are frequently unreasonable in their demands. When the sh.t hits the fan as it sometimes does usually the first guys to start fingering someone else are the doctors.
> >>> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per > >>> > 100,000 [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > never was, I don't know. But recently I think you'd be hard pressed to find > that at many places in the US especially with the shortage and the unions. george conklin - 11 Nov 2005 14:01 GMT >> >>> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per >> >>> > 100,000 [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > associations > interested only having piss-ups and orgies called conventions. No, the CMA and AMA are simply professional associations which love to benefit the public. Every statement they issues starts with, "For the benefit of the patient....". -:)
Robert - 11 Nov 2005 18:56 GMT > >> >>> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per > >> >>> > 100,000 [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > benefit the public. Every statement they issues starts with, "For the > benefit of the patient....". -:) The government runs the healthcare system in Canada and they hate the politicians there. The CMA designed the system and they hate the CMA there. Anyone else you hate so we can get them involved in the system?
Skeptic - 11 Nov 2005 23:40 GMT Odd reply considering I said nothing negative about the union. Merely pointed out that it exists and helps lead to better working conditions for nurses.
You have anger management problems, you lack respect for others, and have continually demonstrated an inability to debate intelligently or even rationally on any topic.
> Not the evil unions? They are truly despicable. Imagine it, people > joining together to achieve sufficient power to gain reasonable working [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >> that at many places in the US especially with the shortage and the >> unions. notritenoteri - 12 Nov 2005 12:46 GMT Jesus f.cking christ is that the best you can do, shoot the messenger when the message is not to your taste? Why would I respect you and like minded individuals? You show absolutely no concern about anyone else only your bank balance. Anger management you say, hardly. You are not high enough above my emotional horizon to even register let alone evoke any emotion. Debate you say? Debate takes at least two parties both with a little bit of intelligence. I'm OK but you seem to be sadly lacking. If you weren't you would question your own profession very strenuously and not do nothing but attempt to defend what is a really indefensible position. I question everyone about everything. I don't profess to have all the answers but that doesn't stop me from questioning. Why is it that you (that is the universal U, not the personal U) can salute the flag, recite the pledge of allegiance and all that pseudo patriotic stuff in support of killing the other tribe yet you are unable to support collective action to support your fellow countrymen? In this age the most important resource available is people and people need collective good health and education. Why do you persist in advancing the so-called American dream as the only model for people?
> Odd reply considering I said nothing negative about the union. Merely > pointed out that it exists and helps lead to better working conditions for [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > >> that at many places in the US especially with the shortage and the > >> unions. Skeptic - 12 Nov 2005 14:59 GMT > Jesus f.cking christ now that's an image. Is that a canadian thing, Jesus masturbating?
notritenoteri - 12 Nov 2005 16:01 GMT It certainly wouldn't be an Amercan one especially with Pat Robertson's god in vengance mode. I wonder where god helped outthose unfortuate peole in New Orleans. MAybe Robertson knows something we don't? People sent that guy money and take him as a source of inspiration. And the Iraqis are crazy you say?
> > Jesus f.cking christ > > now that's an image. Is that a canadian thing, Jesus masturbating? Robert - 12 Nov 2005 18:46 GMT Blasphemy noted.
What is your job, you never answered that?
You do not know one single thing about medicine.
george conklin - 12 Nov 2005 23:01 GMT >> Odd reply considering I said nothing negative about the union. Merely >> pointed out that it exists and helps lead to better working conditions [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] > American > dream as the only model for people? Gouging for medical care was never part of the American dream. It WAS the AMA's dream.
notritenoteri - 12 Nov 2005 23:51 GMT More than a dream apparently looks like an actuality!
snippppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
> Gouging for medical care was never part of the American dream. It WAS the > AMA's dream. george conklin - 12 Nov 2005 23:55 GMT > snippppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp >> Gouging for medical care was never part of the American dream. It WAS > the >> AMA's dream.
> More than a dream apparently looks like an actuality! My grandfather, the one who did house calls, thought that the AMA was in the process of ruining American medicine. How right he was.
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 20:07 GMT > You're going to be in deep do-do then cause a lot of Cnadian nurses are at > retirement age and the new crop is pretty small. Students are getting > smarter too. Until doctors stop treating nurses like sh.t there aren't very > many going into the field. Until Canadians stop treating all healthcare professionals like sh.t you will always have a shortage.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 20:14 GMT >> You're going to be in deep do-do then cause a lot of Cnadian nurses are >> at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Until Canadians stop treating all healthcare professionals like sh.t you > will always have a shortage. You mean Canada has a physician shortage? It seems from the data you deleted they have a SURPLUS.
Sorry your FActs are so screwed up.
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 20:39 GMT "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > You mean Canada has a physician shortage? It seems from the data you
> deleted they have a SURPLUS. > > Sorry your FActs are so screwed up. I am just amazed on how you seem to think that people in charge of the system don't know what they are doing.
How many doctors are leaving Canada and how many American doctors are going there instead? You know more than the Canadian Prime Minister George maybe you should speak to him before he spends all that money on training new doctors.
"There is a need to increase supply of health care professionals in Canada, including doctors, nurses, pharmacists and technologists. These shortages are particularly acute in some parts of the country."
A 10-year plan to strengthen health care September 16, 2004
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news.asp?id=260
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 21:24 GMT OUr prime minsiter is about as smart as your president in other words complete #1 a.sholes. Healthcare isqa provincial responsiblity the Feds only supply money to provincial budgets, nothing else.
> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message > You mean Canada has > a physician shortage? It seems from the data you [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news.asp?id=260 Robert - 10 Nov 2005 21:34 GMT > OUr prime minsiter is about as smart as your president in other words > complete #1 a.sholes. Healthcare isqa provincial responsiblity the Feds > only supply money to provincial budgets, nothing else. And the provincial politicians are not a.sholes? Try reading about the NF and problems there. You place your entire healthcare system under a.sholes.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 22:02 GMT >> OUr prime minsiter is about as smart as your president in other words >> complete #1 a.sholes. Healthcare isqa provincial responsiblity the Feds [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Try reading about the NF and problems there. > You place your entire healthcare system under a.sholes. We already have in the USA. We call it the AMA.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Nov 2005 23:45 GMT |
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