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Medical Forum / General / General / December 2005

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universal health care for U.S. Krugman NYTimes

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fresh~horses - 08 Nov 2005 01:02 GMT
"Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."

OPINION
Pride, Prejudice, Insurance
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: November 7, 2005

General Motors is reducing retirees' medical benefits. Delphi has
declared bankruptcy, and will probably reduce workers' benefits as well
as their wages. An internal Wal-Mart memo describes plans to cut health
costs by hiring temporary workers, who aren't entitled to health
insurance, and screening out employees likely to have high medical
bills.

These aren't isolated anecdotes. Employment-based health insurance is
the only serious source of coverage for Americans too young to receive
Medicare and insufficiently destitute to receive Medicaid, but it's an
institution in decline. Between 2000 and 2004 the number of Americans
under 65 rose by 10 million. Yet the number of nonelderly Americans
covered by employment-based insurance fell by 4.9 million.

The funny thing is that the solution -- national health insurance,
available to everyone -- is obvious. But to see the obvious we'll have
to overcome pride -- the unwarranted belief that America has nothing to
learn from other countries -- and prejudice -- the equally unwarranted
belief, driven by ideology, that private insurance is more efficient
than public insurance.

Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country.

In 2002 the United States spent $5,267 per person on health care.
Canada spent $2,931; Germany spent $2,817; Britain spent only $2,160.
Yet the United States has lower life expectancy and higher infant
mortality than any of these countries.

But don't people in other countries sometimes find it hard to get
medical treatment? Yes, sometimes -- but so do Americans. No, Virginia,
many Americans can't count on ready access to high-quality medical
care.

The journal Health Affairs recently published the results of a survey
of the medical experience of ''sicker adults'' in six countries,
including Canada, Britain, Germany and the United States. The responses
don't support claims about superior service from the U.S. system. It's
true that Americans generally have shorter waits for elective surgery
than Canadians or Britons, although German waits are even shorter. But
Americans do worse by some important measures: we find it harder than
citizens of other advanced countries to see a doctor when we need one,
and our system is more, not less, rife with medical errors.

Above all, Americans are far more likely than others to forgo treatment
because they can't afford it. Forty percent of the Americans surveyed
failed to fill a prescription because of cost. A third were deterred by
cost from seeing a doctor when sick or from getting recommended tests
or follow-up.

Why does American medicine cost so much yet achieve so little? Unlike
other advanced countries, we treat access to health care as a privilege
rather than a right. And this attitude turns out to be inefficient as
well as cruel.

The U.S. system is much more bureaucratic, with much higher
administrative costs, than those of other countries, because private
insurers and other players work hard at trying not to pay for medical
care. And our fragmented system is unable to bargain with drug
companies and other suppliers for lower prices.

Taiwan, which moved 10 years ago from a U.S.-style system to a
Canadian-style single-payer system, offers an object lesson in the
economic advantages of universal coverage. In 1995 less than 60 percent
of Taiwan's residents had health insurance; by 2001 the number was 97
percent. Yet according to a careful study published in Health Affairs
two years ago, this huge expansion in coverage came virtually free: it
led to little if any increase in overall health care spending beyond
normal growth due to rising population and incomes.

Before you dismiss Taiwan as a faraway place of which we know nothing,
remember Chile-mania: just a few months ago, during the Bush
administration's failed attempt to privatize Social Security,
commentators across the country -- independent thinkers all, I'm sure
-- joined in a chorus of ill-informed praise for Chile's private
retirement accounts. (It turns out that Chile's system has a lot of
problems.) Taiwan has more people and a much bigger economy than Chile,
and its experience is a lot more relevant to America's real problems.

The economic and moral case for health care reform in America, reform
that would make us less different from other advanced countries, is
overwhelming. One of these days we'll realize that our semiprivatized
system isn't just unfair, it's far less efficient than a
straightforward system of guaranteed health insurance.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/tsc.html?URI=http://select.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/
opinion/07krugman.html&OQ=hpQ26orefQ3Dlogin&OP=2d5f84d0Q2FEib8EQ3Bo@Q3DQ3DQ3BEQ3
CffQ7DEGGEfeEQ3DQ3EIuIQ3DuEfec@Q3ADUCuSQ51Q3BUQ3F


fairuse
george conklin - 08 Nov 2005 01:26 GMT
> "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
> more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
>
> fairuse

 What about Medicare for All Ages?
Skeptic - 08 Nov 2005 03:25 GMT
> "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
> more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."

Seems odd to start with a false premise.
David Wright - 08 Nov 2005 03:46 GMT
>> "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
>> more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."
>
>Seems odd to start with a false premise.

Not at all.  It's elementary in logic -- if you start with a false
premise, you can prove anything.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
notritenoteri - 08 Nov 2005 12:48 GMT
So rather than gainsaying me offer some evidence to illustrate your
conjectures.I will even tell you stats that I would find acceptable if you
want but you can chose your own for starters.

> >> "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
> >> more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>      "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
>                                  -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
fresh~horses - 08 Nov 2005 03:47 GMT
> > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
> > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."
>
> Seems odd to start with a false premise.

You haven't been paying attention;

http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.med/msg/4f1a671c6655fe08

http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.med/msg/7c92ea49847ce777

http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.med/msg/c8b126165fdd55a2
Skeptic - 08 Nov 2005 05:05 GMT
>> > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
>> > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."
>>
>> Seems odd to start with a false premise.
>
> You haven't been paying attention;

Incorrect.  You just dont' have your facts straight.  The medical care
provided in the United States is the best in the world.  So the QUALITY of
care is unsurpassed.  We don't have an expansive coverage system as do many
other countries, so the QUANTITY of care is less.  So the typical benchmarks
like overall mortality are artificially lowered since the American society -
not medical profession - has chosen to not insure/cover all of its citizens.
But if you're going to talk "results" then that is an issue of quality, not
quantity, and insofar as that is concerned, the above statement is simply
not accurate.
fresh~horses - 08 Nov 2005 05:16 GMT
> >> > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
> >> > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Incorrect.  You just dont' have your facts straight.

They aren't MY facts. They're yours. As in; one American science
writer, one American journalist and one American former NEJM editor.
And they didn't make up the stats. Those again, are yours.

> The medical care
> provided in the United States is the best in the world.

Apparently not.

So the QUALITY of
> care is unsurpassed.

If quality of HEALTHCARE is to improve health...again, apparently not.

We don't have an expansive coverage system as do many
> other countries, so the QUANTITY of care is less. So the typical benchmarks
> like overall mortality are artificially lowered since the American society -
> not medical profession - has chosen to not insure/cover all of its citizens.
> But if you're going to talk "results" then that is an issue of quality, not
> quantity, and insofar as that is concerned, the above statement is simply
> not accurate.

The patient died but the operation was a success.
Skeptic - 08 Nov 2005 05:34 GMT
We differ on less than you think.  We're just talking about different
issues.  What you're talking about is access to care ... how many people get
covered.  Some people look at this as a benchmark for "quality" but I find
that totally inappropriate and utterly misrepresentative of the stellar care
given in the USA.  I'm not saying I like or dislike or agree or disagree
with that system - but it's a societal and political system.  If you want to
evaluate the actual quality of care given then you look at outcomes - for
example treatment of prostate cancer.  We do just as well or better than any
other country.  Our surgeons operate as well or better, our radiation and
medical oncologists are on the forefront with  the latest treatments.  That
is top notch quality of care.  It's not done better anywhere else, period.
Ah... but you know is?  Screeing for said prosate cancer.  We have 65 year
old black, below the poverty line men who are probably walking around with
prostate cancer in a curative stage but it won't be found ... until they
turn up in the ER at some point in urinary retention or spinal cord
compression.  Yes, that is a huge problem, but it is a critique of American
culture, not the quality of care given by doctors, nurses, technicians, etc.

>> >> > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
>> >> > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> The patient died but the operation was a success.
fresh~horses - 08 Nov 2005 05:46 GMT
> We differ on less than you think.  We're just talking about different
> issues.  What you're talking about is access to care ... how many people get
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> medical oncologists are on the forefront with  the latest treatments.  That
> is top notch quality of care.  It's not done better anywhere else, period.

If you have 100 people and only 33 get this top notch care, you've
failed. And what's more, you're a lot like a cuckolded husband;
everyone knows but you.

> Ah... but you know is?  Screeing for said prosate cancer.  We have 65 year
> old black, below the poverty line men who are probably walking around with
> prostate cancer in a curative stage but it won't be found ... until they
> turn up in the ER at some point in urinary retention or spinal cord
> compression.  Yes, that is a huge problem, but it is a critique of American
> culture, not the quality of care given by doctors, nurses, technicians, etc.

A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are
inseparable.

> >> >> > "Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends
> >> >> > more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country."
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> >
> > The patient died but the operation was a success.
Happy Dog - 08 Nov 2005 06:28 GMT
"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>> We differ on less than you think.  We're just talking about different
>> issues.  What you're talking about is access to care ... how many people
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> failed. And what's more, you're a lot like a cuckolded husband;
> everyone knows but you.

Depends on why the other 67 didn't.  I suspect that it's because they had to
pay for it and couldn't or didn't.  Just like you.  You genuinely belive
that you're worth a handout because you have special social status.  orrect?

>> Ah... but you know is?  Screeing for said prosate cancer.  We have 65
>> year
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are
> inseparable.

Why?  Can you think of *anyone* who doesn't deserve medical care paid by the
government?  I know you won't answer this.  But, it's a curious question.

moo
Twittering One - 08 Nov 2005 06:42 GMT
... and if it's paid for,
What is the quality delivered?

I was handcuffed and forcibly sedated
In Bellevue, when I insisted my history of sexual
abuse be included in the report.
george conklin - 08 Nov 2005 12:37 GMT
> "fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>>> We differ on less than you think.  We're just talking about different
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> belive that you're worth a handout because you have special social status.
> orrect?

   Even if you spend 100% of your savings, your house and your insurance,
you will do no better than if you lived in Europe.
Herman Rubin - 08 Nov 2005 16:38 GMT
>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in

            ....................

>> A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are
>> inseparable.

>Why?  Can you think of *anyone* who doesn't deserve medical care paid by the
>government?  I know you won't answer this.  But, it's a curious question.

Having the government provide "medical care" for everyone
will necessarily result in rationing and the other ills
which come with that.  Medical care is EXPENSIVE, and the
resources are not there, and will not be there.

The individual must decide among the alternatives, and
this means that governments and "insurance companies"
must not have a say.  The evaluation of the results is
highly idiosyncratic, and even leaving the decisions in
the hands of physicians and medical societies is wrong.

Signature

This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558

Peter White - 08 Nov 2005 17:15 GMT
>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> must not have a say.  The evaluation of the results is
> highly idiosyncratic,

What does this particular bit of your load of sh.t mean?

 and even leaving the decisions in
> the hands of physicians and medical societies is wrong.
notritenoteri - 08 Nov 2005 17:55 GMT
It means that the stupid and the poor should be left at the wayside just
like they are now unless of course they can be used as cannon fodder to
protect USA oil supplies.

> >>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>   and even leaving the decisions in
> > the hands of physicians and medical societies is wrong.
george conklin - 08 Nov 2005 18:06 GMT
>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> What does this particular bit of your load of sh.t mean?

Only libertarians know the translation.  -:)
notritenoteri - 08 Nov 2005 19:42 GMT
LIbertarians seem to be all hot and moist about what I would call controlled
anarchy. In other words as long as they get their beaks in the trough the
system is  OK

> >>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Only libertarians know the translation.  -:)
george conklin - 08 Nov 2005 21:35 GMT
>> >>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> anarchy. In other words as long as they get their beaks in the trough the
> system is  OK

 Please stop top posting.
notritenoteri - 08 Nov 2005 22:51 GMT
Sorry dude its my thing!

> >> >>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
>   Please stop top posting.
Herman Rubin - 08 Nov 2005 18:32 GMT
>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in

            ....................

>>>>A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are
>>>>inseparable.

>>>Why?  Can you think of *anyone* who doesn't deserve medical care paid by the
>>>government?  I know you won't answer this.  But, it's a curious question.

Why should the government pay for medical care any more than
food or clothing or housing?  Why should there not be
differences in the amount and type of medical care based
on the ability to pay?  We have a scarce commodity here,
and there is no reason not to allow differences.

>> Having the government provide "medical care" for everyone
>> will necessarily result in rationing and the other ills
>> which come with that.  Medical care is EXPENSIVE, and the
>> resources are not there, and will not be there.

>> The individual must decide among the alternatives, and
>> this means that governments and "insurance companies"
>> must not have a say.  The evaluation of the results is
>> highly idiosyncratic,

>What does this particular bit of your load of sh.t mean?

To try to put it into words of few syllables, it is up to
you to take the chances of the various sets of outcomes
into account, according to YOUR values.  The doctor gives
you the odds, not just of recovery or survival, but of
the costs and changes in your life style forced by the
treatment, and YOU have to decide which "lottery" you
like better.  Don't ask for more; you cannot get it.

>  and even leaving the decisions in
>> the hands of physicians and medical societies is wrong.

Signature

This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558

Peter White - 08 Nov 2005 18:41 GMT
Moron

>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>>
>>>the hands of physicians and medical societies is wrong.
george conklin - 08 Nov 2005 21:37 GMT
>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Why should the government pay for medical care any more than
> food or clothing or housing?

  Because Herman people eat about the same amount every day.  It is not
like illness, which comes at us with a great surprise and takes everything
you own.  If we all pay into the pool, then it is not 'government.'  It is
universal.   And that is ONLY way to even out the costs of illness.  All
other industrialized nations know this.  Even Taiwan knows this according to
the article.
notritenoteri - 08 Nov 2005 23:31 GMT
Why is it you people seem to see the govt as something that is evil and
separate from the people?  The people are the govt and vice versa. As soon
as two people live in proximity there is an implicit govt. Why is it
perfectly acceptable in USA for the little guy  who has squat to be
patriotic and fight and die for the likes of Kenny Lay and Bill Gates, yet
having people like that pay to keep the little guy healthy so he can die is
such an anathema?  Strange!

> >>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> other industrialized nations know this.  Even Taiwan knows this according to
> the article.
Peter White - 08 Nov 2005 23:35 GMT
        Yes when their slaves were actual chattel they were much better
looked after.
    God damn Lincoln, he took away the security of the basics of life
from the common man, he freed some of them.

> Why is it you people seem to see the govt as something that is evil and
> separate from the people?  The people are the govt and vice versa. As soon
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
>>the article.
notritenoteri - 09 Nov 2005 00:38 GMT
Yah but the noble bastard didn't want to he needed cannon fodder.

If only Joe McCarthy or Curt Lemay had made it to president.
>          Yes when their slaves were actual chattel they were much better
> looked after.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> >
> >>the article.
Herman Rubin - 09 Nov 2005 21:09 GMT
>Why is it you people seem to see the govt as something that is evil and
>separate from the people?

"When the government fears the people, you have freedom.

When the people fear the government, you have tyranny."

        Thomas Jefferson
Signature

This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558

Herman Rubin - 09 Nov 2005 20:31 GMT
>>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in

         ....................

>>>>>>A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are
>>>>>>inseparable.

>>>>>Why?  Can you think of *anyone* who doesn't deserve medical care paid by
>>>>>the
>>>>>government?  I know you won't answer this.  But, it's a curious
>>>>>question.

>> Why should the government pay for medical care any more than
>> food or clothing or housing?

>   Because Herman people eat about the same amount every day.  It is not
>like illness, which comes at us with a great surprise and takes everything
>you own.  If we all pay into the pool, then it is not 'government.'  It is
>universal.   And that is ONLY way to even out the costs of illness.  All
>other industrialized nations know this.  Even Taiwan knows this according to
>the article.

I have advocated major medical insurance.  And if we pay into
the pool EQUALLY, and receive benefits EQUALLY, it is real
insurance.  If one pays in more, normally one gets more; in
a health insurance situation, the maximum would be MUCH more.
Look at the costs of home insurance.

It is socialism to "even out" the costs of ANYTHING.  I can
see providing free medical care to control infectious diseases,
to protect the others.  But this is not the case of most
diseases.

And we have seen what happens when governments decide what
should be covered.  There was a case of a woman who lost her
vocal cords to cancer; they would not provide a voice box so
she could become an effective tax-paying worker; it was not
"necessary".  
Signature

This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558

notritenoteri - 09 Nov 2005 21:51 GMT
Yah when US  governments getinvolved a whole new industry of advocacy is
created!

> >>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
> hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
george conklin - 09 Nov 2005 21:59 GMT
>>>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> she could become an effective tax-paying worker; it was not
> "necessary".
george conklin - 09 Nov 2005 22:02 GMT
>>>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> she could become an effective tax-paying worker; it was not
> "necessary".

 Herman, by definition insurance means someone gets more out than they put
in.  That is what insurance is all about.  Major medical insurance is ok?
There is really no difference between that an insurance which covers more.
The real issue is that none of us knows how serious our medical problems are
going to be before we die.  That is why we must have national pool.  As for
your comment, "It is socialism to 'even out' the costs of anything....that
is what insurance is for.  It is not socialism at all.  As for what is
covered, should we let a HMO decide what can be covered using the terms,
"Medically necessary," which means anything?  I don't think so.
Robert - 09 Nov 2005 22:33 GMT
"george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message

> is what insurance is for.  It is not socialism at all.  As for what is
> covered, should we let a HMO decide what can be covered using the terms,
> "Medically necessary," which means anything?  I don't think so.

Get another insurance then. If the government decides for all, their is no
recourse.

Every bad point about insurance that you raise is solidified without
recourse when the government provides it. It is seen in Medicare and in
Medicaid. If you are totally dependent on Medicare and it is not covered
then you are screwed.
If you don't like HMO's and your insurance provides an option for preferred
doctor list but pay a little more then go for that.
We already have universal coverage. Those that can't pay have government
coverage and those who can have private insurance.
You want to screw everybody by having government take over the whole thing.
george conklin - 09 Nov 2005 23:16 GMT
> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Get another insurance then. If the government decides for all, their is no
> recourse.

   Individuals cannot pick different insurance carriers.  They ALL say,
"Medically Necessary" procedures are covered.  That term has no meaning at
all and it leaves each HMO to decide isses AFTER you get sick, never, never
before.
Robert - 09 Nov 2005 23:54 GMT
"george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message

>     Individuals cannot pick different insurance carriers.  They ALL say,
> "Medically Necessary" procedures are covered.  That term has no meaning at
> all and it leaves each HMO to decide isses AFTER you get sick, never, never
> before.

That's true and is it different when the government says "medically
necessary"? Yes it is as you can sue in one but you have to go to the
politicians for the other. Which would you rather go to?
Herman Rubin - 10 Nov 2005 16:57 GMT
>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message

>>> is what insurance is for.  It is not socialism at all.  As for what is
>>> covered, should we let a HMO decide what can be covered using the terms,
>>> "Medically necessary," which means anything?  I don't think so.

>> Get another insurance then. If the government decides for all, their is no
>> recourse.

>    Individuals cannot pick different insurance carriers.  They ALL say,
>"Medically Necessary" procedures are covered.  That term has no meaning at
>all and it leaves each HMO to decide isses AFTER you get sick, never, never
>before.

Not all is done through HMOs.  Many have "in network"
providers, which actually consists of a large set of
physicians and hospitals, and "out of network" providers
for the rest.  We also have a choice of plans, which
have different rates for in network and out of network
expenses.  

Signature

This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558

george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 19:15 GMT
>>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> have different rates for in network and out of network
> expenses.

  Maybe YOU have a choice because you work for the state.  Most people do
not.  Neither my wife or I have had any choices for years.  There is one
plan and that is it.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 19:47 GMT
University types live in a sheltered workshop environment. I know I was in
it for many many years. Its not the real world only  a pale imitation.

> >>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> not.  Neither my wife or I have had any choices for years.  There is one
> plan and that is it.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 19:53 GMT
>> >>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> University types live in a sheltered workshop environment. I know I was in
> it for many many years. Its not the real world only  a pale imitation.

Not all of us are so narrow.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 21:08 GMT
Oh!

> >> >>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Not all of us are so narrow.
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 23:41 GMT
> University types live in a sheltered workshop environment. I know I was in
> it for many many years. Its not the real world only  a pale >imitation.

And you learned this from the killing fields in Cambodia?
You still have that little red bandana on your neck from your years of
lining up doctors and intellectuals and running out of the city?
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 23:54 GMT
NAh we just tied jaws shut and they blew up naturally from a buildup of
pressure from hot gases. HOw did we miss you ?

> > University types live in a sheltered workshop environment. I know I was in
> > it for many many years. Its not the real world only  a pale >imitation.
>
> And you learned this from the killing fields in Cambodia?
> You still have that little red bandana on your neck from your years of
> lining up doctors and intellectuals and running out of the city?
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 23:37 GMT
>    Maybe YOU have a choice because you work for the state.  Most people do
> not.  Neither my wife or I have had any choices for years.  There is one
> plan and that is it.

And you are so unhappy with not having a choice that you want everybody in
the countlry not to have a choice also by having one single payer system.
Nice logic.
Herman Rubin - 12 Nov 2005 22:58 GMT
>>>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message

            ..................

>> Not all is done through HMOs.  Many have "in network"
>> providers, which actually consists of a large set of
>> physicians and hospitals, and "out of network" providers
>> for the rest.  We also have a choice of plans, which
>> have different rates for in network and out of network
>> expenses.

>   Maybe YOU have a choice because you work for the state.  Most people do
>not.  Neither my wife or I have had any choices for years.  There is one
>plan and that is it.

Again, I do not work for the state.  Universities have a
great deal of autonomy, except now in deciding which drugs
are in the formulary, taken over by the state.

An insurance company does most of the administration for
the insurance, but the actual payments come out of the
Purdue general fund.  The choice is for an HMO, or one
of several schedules, depending on how much is "in network"
and how much is not.  

Signature

This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558

notritenoteri - 09 Nov 2005 23:53 GMT
You are such a little man. Why don't you pick up your spear and leave?  If
you hit your limit on private insurance you are screwed too so what is your
point? If all pigs were equal you statement about government coverage and
private insurance would be true. Unfortunately all pigs are not equal For
example I'm a f.ck of a lot smarter than you and I can extract the maximum
available out of the system. On the other hand there are many  such as you
who are too stupid to walk and chew gum at the same time. In fact you have a
number of them in high office. Are you suggesting that they just be
abandoned by the roadside so to speak?

> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> coverage and those who can have private insurance.
> You want to screw everybody by having government take over the whole thing.
Herman Rubin - 10 Nov 2005 02:57 GMT
>>>>>>>"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in

>>   ....................

>>>>>>>>A society's culture and the quality of its medical care are
>>>>>>>>inseparable.

>>>>>>>Why?  Can you think of *anyone* who doesn't deserve medical care paid
>>>>>>>by
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>government?  I know you won't answer this.  But, it's a curious
>>>>>>>question.

>>>> Why should the government pay for medical care any more than
>>>> food or clothing or housing?

>>>   Because Herman people eat about the same amount every day.  It is not
>>>like illness, which comes at us with a great surprise and takes everything
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>>to
>>>the article.

>> I have advocated major medical insurance.  And if we pay into
>> the pool EQUALLY, and receive benefits EQUALLY, it is real
>> insurance.  If one pays in more, normally one gets more; in
>> a health insurance situation, the maximum would be MUCH more.
>> Look at the costs of home insurance.

>> It is socialism to "even out" the costs of ANYTHING.  I can
>> see providing free medical care to control infectious diseases,
>> to protect the others.  But this is not the case of most
>> diseases.

>> And we have seen what happens when governments decide what
>> should be covered.  There was a case of a woman who lost her
>> vocal cords to cancer; they would not provide a voice box so
>> she could become an effective tax-paying worker; it was not
>> "necessary".

>  Herman, by definition insurance means someone gets more out than they put
>in.  That is what insurance is all about.

Agreed.  But the relation between what one puts in and what
one gets out is not a function of income at either end.

If you own a house, the premiums for a given type of
insurance will be the same if you are George Conklin
or Bill Gates.  Your automobile insurance cost will
depend on your driving record and where you live; you
will not pay more if you are a millionaire, and not
get more in the event of an accident if you are poor.

    Major medical insurance is ok?

Major medical insurance is insurance against unforeseen
rare events.  Its premium depends on the person's health
at the time of taking out the policy, and for a given
premium, the amount received does not depend on income.

Find a non-governmental insurance program which is not
of this type, from Allstate to Lloyds.
Signature

This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558

Robert - 09 Nov 2005 22:24 GMT
"Herman Rubin" <hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu> wrote in
> And we have seen what happens when governments decide what
> should be covered.  There was a case of a woman who lost her
> vocal cords to cancer; they would not provide a voice box so
> she could become an effective tax-paying worker; it was not
> "necessary".

Canada doesn't even cover long term home health care by the government. It
is too costly.
george conklin - 09 Nov 2005 23:17 GMT
> "Herman Rubin" <hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu> wrote in
>> And we have seen what happens when governments decide what
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Canada doesn't even cover long term home health care by the government. It
> is too costly.

  Medicare does not cover long-term home health care either.  If you go
broke and have no assets, Medicaid can cover your nursing home care.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Nov 2005 00:00 GMT
>    Medicare does not cover long-term home health care either.  If you go
> broke and have no assets, Medicaid can cover your nursing home care.

Medicare covers 99 days of nursing home care, as well, but no more.

SBH
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 06:15 GMT
So now 3 months is long term?

> >    Medicare does not cover long-term home health care either.  If you go
> > broke and have no assets, Medicaid can cover your nursing home care.
>
> Medicare covers 99 days of nursing home care, as well, but no more.
>
> SBH
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Nov 2005 20:40 GMT
> So now 3 months is long term?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > SBH

Never said it was. Long term *home health* care was discussed. Somebody
put in that medicare covered nursing homes. I put in additional
information that your first 3 months of nursing home is courtesty
medicare, so long as you meet the age or disability requirements. After
that, you're on your own to show financial need (medicaid).

SBH
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 00:02 GMT
"george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message >    Medicare does not
cover long-term home health care either.  If you go
> broke and have no assets, Medicaid can cover your nursing home care.

Medicare is not a national healthcare system for all.
It is cheaper for home healthcare and Canada does not provide a cent for
that coverage in terms of long term. Hospice, yes, or short term yes. My
point is it really isn't socialized medicine.
It cherry picks as much as insurance companies do. They don't want to cover
those costs so they don't. Some countries cover dentistry and Canada does
not. They are selective on who and what they cover and still give this moral
lecture about it's position.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 06:16 GMT
We wouldn't dare give you a lecture of any kind since you know all the
answers.

> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message >    Medicare does not
> cover long-term home health care either.  If you go
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> not. They are selective on who and what they cover and still give this moral
> lecture about it's position.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 12:22 GMT
>> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message >    Medicare does not
>> cover long-term home health care either.  If you go
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> We wouldn't dare give you a lecture of any kind since you know all the
> answers.

 People getting rich off the current system will find fault with anything
that does not pay them as well as they get now with the so-called 'free
enterprise' medicine.  But we do not have free enterprise medicine at all.
What we have is price-administered medicine, with the insurance companies
going along just fine, as long as they get a 'discount.'  So there is a
1-year delay in the price rise for insurance companies.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 13:13 GMT
   Interesting observation. I'm old enough to remember when doctors made
house calls. Now that was customer service, a waste of resources perhaps but
the service, even though in a lot of cases when it was just confirmation of
what you already knew,  "Little Dorothy is on her way down the yellow brick
road", was really customer oriented.  Now "Little Dorothy" can be kept above
room temp waiting at the head of the road so to speak for months, but she's
got to do it at the convenience of the quacks. Is it really that much of an
improvement?

The real irony is that the current position, is to a large degree the result
of union activities in the guise of the *MAs whose members scream and yell
about how private enterprise they are and how abhorrent it is for unions to
hold up the consumer.
I love the likes of some  screaming about the evils of inclusive insurance
and how everyone should pay when he is living off the fat of the land at
Purdue. I was an inmate and keeper at a University for many years and the
one where I was, likely run of the mill in terms of benefits, rather than an
exception, had superb healthcare plans.  The coverage was unreal and the
premiums a give-away.
Then  there is self-professed doctor. Is he really? If he is,  he certainly
reinforces the perception some of the victims of Medicine have of the
profession. It is very hard to be a believer  when the first thing that goes
is honesty. He claims you need an experience more that once to be cognizant
of its ramifications  I wonder how many times he's been put on the green
mile?
Not last but tending to least is the "janitor".   His main interest seems
to in minimizing cost and maximizing his benefits, ME-ME philosophy.   The
other day I figured out how to substantially improve his cost/ benefit
experience. Eat those who peg out as a result of inability to pay for
healthcare! It is cost effective, in line with the environmental movement of
recycle and should  help relieve the distress and angst that the poor
generate in those who are not poor.  Just like Milo Minderbinder said,
"everybody has a share" or something like that.
How does the richest nation that the world has ever seen, support the
disenfranchisement of a large part of its population? Are we still only
smart enough to just keep moving our genes forward? If that is where are
then we really aren't any smarter than bacteria.

> >> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message >    Medicare does not
> >> cover long-term home health care either.  If you go
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> going along just fine, as long as they get a 'discount.'  So there is a
> 1-year delay in the price rise for insurance companies.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 13:53 GMT
>> >> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message >    Medicare does
> not
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> an
> improvement?

  I am not sure what you mean here.  My grandfather did house calls right
up to the end (he was 84).  I used to ride along with him on Xmas day after
we opened the presents.  He never used to like to sit at home.

> The real irony is that the current position, is to a large degree the
> result
> of union activities in the guise of the *MAs whose members scream and yell
> about how private enterprise they are and how abhorrent it is for unions
> to
> hold up the consumer.

 Calling the AMA what it really is, the nation's most greedy union, gets
the boys mad.  They say it is only a professional association.  Ok, the
nation's most greedy association of whatever kind.  But it has given us
medicine at twice the average for an industrialization nation, and has left
45 million out of the insurance scheme. If you subtract out Medicare and
Medicaid, it would be 120 million.  And remeber the AMA hates Medicare too.

> I love the likes of some  screaming about the evils of inclusive insurance
> and how everyone should pay when he is living off the fat of the land at
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> exception, had superb healthcare plans.  The coverage was unreal and the
> premiums a give-away.

 I asked Herman once if he hates public education and public benefits so
strongly, why did he not teach at a private university?  He responded that
they were just as dependent on Federal grants, so it made no difference.

> Then  there is self-professed doctor. Is he really? If he is,  he
> certainly
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of its ramifications  I wonder how many times he's been put on the green
> mile?

  Some of us are easily identified, but others might be high school
students posting as MDs.

> Not last but tending to least is the "janitor".

 Same comment as above.  We have no idea who some of these people are.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 18:52 GMT
Are you agreeing with my observations?
I think one of the reasons thinking Canadians are opposed to USA style
medicne is because they fear exactly the results that you observe. Our
system is not perfect and can be substantially improved. It will require a
new paradigm for the practioners at all skill levels and the injection of a
lot of startup money. THat is the  down side. On  the up side we are in a
much better position with a mostly single payer system than the USA is to
achieve the same ends.  Unfortunately for the likes of Robert and Harris the
USA system appears to be the worst possible for re-engineering.

> >> >> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message >    Medicare does
> > not
[quoted text clipped - 88 lines]
>
>   Same comment as above.  We have no idea who some of these people are.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Nov 2005 20:56 GMT
>   Calling the AMA what it really is, the nation's most greedy union, gets
> the boys mad.  They say it is only a professional association.  Ok, the
> nation's most greedy association of whatever kind.  But it has given us
> medicine at twice the average for an industrialization nation, and has left
> 45 million out of the insurance scheme. If you subtract out Medicare and
> Medicaid, it would be 120 million.

No, for the 45 million are covered by a $300 billion dollar medicaid
program.

>  And remeber the AMA hates Medicare too.

Not any more :)

>   I asked Herman once if he hates public education and public benefits so
> strongly, why did he not teach at a private university?  He responded that
> they were just as dependent on Federal grants, so it made no difference.

Herman could work at BYU, where they tell the feds to shove their
grants (and the strings that come attached to them).

Would you consider converting to Mormonism, Herman? Or do you already
belong to the official religion of federal government grant-getters,
which I believe is of the Hebraic persuation.

SBH
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 21:20 GMT
Oh the goyem are getting restive!

> >   Calling the AMA what it really is, the nation's most greedy union, gets
> > the boys mad.  They say it is only a professional association.  Ok, the
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> SBH
Herman Rubin - 13 Nov 2005 02:50 GMT
In article <SQOcf.2978$XR4.8962@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,

I seem to have erased the initial article, but I found
the response I am replying to Dr. Harris's comments.

            ....................

>> Herman could work at BYU, where they tell the feds to shove their
>> grants (and the strings that come attached to them).

>> Would you consider converting to Mormonism, Herman? Or do you already
>> belong to the official religion of federal government grant-getters,
>> which I believe is of the Hebraic persuation.

I have had grants, but do not have any now, although
I probably could get them.  My research is of the type
that would not be restricted by grants.

I have also pointed out many times that the government
grant system has greatly done it basic research.  Basic
research cannot be done according to proposals saying
what one expects to find.  At this time, there are few
faculty able to teach strong advanced courses in statistics;
probability is still surviving fairly well.

Another problem with grants is that new faculty are
almost forced to specialize.  I know of no strong
statistician in that category.  

Signature

This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558

Skeptic - 10 Nov 2005 14:00 GMT
>    Interesting observation. I'm old enough to remember when doctors made
> house calls. Now that was customer service,

Sure was.  I can't even imagine having so few patients to see in the course
of a day that I'd have time to go around to people's houses.  Since that
time, all we've seen is the workload for doctors steadily increase while
their reimbursements fall and their malpractice premiums skyrocket.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 14:03 GMT
>>    Interesting observation. I'm old enough to remember when doctors made
>> house calls. Now that was customer service,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that time, all we've seen is the workload for doctors steadily increase
> while their reimbursements fall and their malpractice premiums skyrocket.

   The number of doctors has steadily INCREASED since the house call
disappeared.
Skeptic - 10 Nov 2005 16:07 GMT
>>>    Interesting observation. I'm old enough to remember when doctors made
>>> house calls. Now that was customer service,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>    The number of doctors has steadily INCREASED since the house call
> disappeared.

And what do you think the population of America has done?

Decades ago, we increased our supply of doctors.  In more recent years, the
supply of new doctors has only pulled equal with those retiring, creating
steadily increasing work burdens since the population continues to increase.
Furthermore, the intentionally added physicians from the 60's through 80's
are going to start retiring soon ... and at alarming rates and we're going
to be facing shortages when that happens.

But George, let's see what the FACTS have to say on this issue.  Here is the
absolute latest from the WHO.

Physicians per 100,000 people:

Canada 189
UK 213
Australia 247
USA 279
Spain 301
Norway 311
Netherlands 315
Finland 319
Sweden 326
Portugal 326
France 335
Germany 337
Austria 338
Switzerland 362
Belgium 448
Italy 619

And what about the rate of population increases around the world?

The growth rate in the USA is 2 times faster than Denmark, Portugal,
Netherlands, or Greece, 3 times faster than France, Belgium, Switzerland, or
Enland, 4 times faster than Japan, Austria, Finland or Sweden, and 9 times
faster than Germany or Italy.

Of all the countries listed, only Australia has a faster growth rate and
only 20% faster.

So a relatively static number of physicians... and that is likely to
decrease with the boomers getting ready to start retiring but one of the
fastest growing populations of the countries we are commonly compared to for
medical  issues, coupled with what is already one of the LOWEST doctor to
citizen ratios...

Those are the facts.  You can spew your drivel all you like - I'll stick
with facts.
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 18:12 GMT
"Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per 100,000
people:

> Canada 189
> UK 213
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Belgium 448
> Italy 619

Canada can be proud on how they are keeping their GNP down with healthcare.
They export doctors so that number is different in that one should ask how
many doctors graduating from med school in which Canada has the highest.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 19:05 GMT
> "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per 100,000
> people:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> They export doctors so that number is different in that one should ask how
> many doctors graduating from med school in which Canada has the highest.

 Canada also sends us needed nurses we don't want to train.  The ANA closed
down most of the hospital-based training programs and now we don't have
enough nurses.  Had the ANA not existed, we would not have a nursing
shortage.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 19:52 GMT
You're going to be in deep do-do then cause a lot of Cnadian nurses are at
retirement age and the new crop is pretty small. Students are getting
smarter too. Until doctors stop treating nurses like sh.t there aren't very
many going into the field.

> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per 100,000
> > people:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> enough nurses.  Had the ANA not existed, we would not have a nursing
> shortage.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 20:06 GMT
>> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per 100,000
>> > people:
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> very
> many going into the field.

 After I got married,  my wife (a RN) worked 14 nights without a single
night off because they kept insisting she do it.  And the President of the
AMA was a big wheel at that hospital too.  But working conditions for the
nurses were not even considered then, nor are they now.  Nixon noted we do
not have a nursing shortage, but merely a shortage of nurses who are willing
to work with the conditions found at hospitals.  Then with her next job she
worked surgical west at Presbyterian Hospital in PA (now part of HUP).
Nurses change shift at 3:30, but the med school sent the students and
residents through at 3:00.  So the day shift had to stay on until all orders
were taken off, and processed, etc.  She never really finished until 5:30,
but there was no overtime permitted.  So they worked off the clock while I
sat in the waiting area to walk her home (bad neighborhood).  After she
quit, they hired two nurses to take her place, but I am sure no one got
through on time.  Why were the shifts not adjusted?  You know, doctors are
king and they do as they want.   Things are no better now.
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 21:22 GMT
Same sh.t here. Nurses are niggers!

> >> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per 100,000
> >> > people:
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> through on time.  Why were the shifts not adjusted?  You know, doctors are
> king and they do as they want.   Things are no better now.
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 23:45 GMT
> Same sh.t here. Nurses are niggers!

What kind of work do you do? Please tell all.
notritenoteri - 11 Nov 2005 13:17 GMT
I don't boy.  I just cash cheques every month, those that aren't direct
deposit!

> > Same sh.t here. Nurses are niggers!
>
> What kind of work do you do? Please tell all.
Skeptic - 11 Nov 2005 00:01 GMT
>>> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per
>>> > 100,000
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> AMA was a big wheel at that hospital too.  But working conditions for the
> nurses were not even considered then, nor are they now.

I don't know what backwards hick hospital you're referring to... but of the
ones I've worked at that has never been remotely true.  I'm not saying it
never was, I don't know.  But recently I think you'd be hard pressed to find
that at many places in the US especially with the shortage and the unions.
notritenoteri - 11 Nov 2005 13:55 GMT
   Not the evil unions?  They are truly despicable. Imagine it, people
joining together to achieve sufficient power to gain reasonable working
conditions for the participants. It is truly un-American or even
un-Canadian. Not like the CMA or AMA which are just benevolent associations
interested only having piss-ups and orgies called conventions.
   Anyone in a hospital below senior administrators or MD is treated like
second class citizens. Administrators attempt to operate outside contracts
and doctors are frequently unreasonable in their demands. When the sh.t hits
the fan as it sometimes does usually the first guys to start fingering
someone else are the doctors.

> >>> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per
> >>> > 100,000
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> never was, I don't know.  But recently I think you'd be hard pressed to find
> that at many places in the US especially with the shortage and the unions.
george conklin - 11 Nov 2005 14:01 GMT
>> >>> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per
>> >>> > 100,000
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> associations
> interested only having piss-ups and orgies called conventions.

   No, the CMA and AMA are simply professional associations which love to
benefit the public.  Every statement they issues starts with, "For the
benefit of the patient....". -:)
Robert - 11 Nov 2005 18:56 GMT
> >> >>> > "Skeptic" <bcs002b@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Physicians per
> >> >>> > 100,000
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> benefit the public.  Every statement they issues starts with, "For the
> benefit of the patient....". -:)

The government runs the healthcare system in Canada and they hate the
politicians there. The CMA designed the system and they hate the CMA there.
Anyone else you hate so we can get them involved in the system?
Skeptic - 11 Nov 2005 23:40 GMT
Odd reply considering I said nothing negative about the union.  Merely
pointed out that it exists and helps lead to better working conditions for
nurses.

You have anger management problems, you lack respect for others, and have
continually demonstrated an inability to debate intelligently or even
rationally on any topic.

>    Not the evil unions?  They are truly despicable. Imagine it, people
> joining together to achieve sufficient power to gain reasonable working
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>> that at many places in the US especially with the shortage and the
>> unions.
notritenoteri - 12 Nov 2005 12:46 GMT
Jesus f.cking christ is that the best you can do, shoot the messenger when
the message is not to your taste? Why would I respect you and like minded
individuals? You show absolutely no concern about anyone else only your bank
balance.   Anger management you say, hardly.  You are not high enough above
my emotional horizon to even register let alone evoke any emotion.  Debate
you say?   Debate takes at least two parties both with a little bit of
intelligence. I'm OK but you seem to be sadly lacking.  If you weren't you
would question your own profession very strenuously and not do nothing but
attempt to defend what is a really indefensible position.  I question
everyone about everything.  I don't profess to have all the answers but that
doesn't stop me from questioning.
Why is it that you (that is the universal U, not the personal U) can salute
the flag, recite the pledge of allegiance and all that pseudo patriotic
stuff in support of killing the other tribe yet you are unable to support
collective action to support your fellow countrymen? In this age the most
important resource available is people and people need collective good
health and education. Why do you persist in advancing the so-called American
dream as the only model for people?

> Odd reply considering I said nothing negative about the union.  Merely
> pointed out that it exists and helps lead to better working conditions for
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
> >> that at many places in the US especially with the shortage and the
> >> unions.
Skeptic - 12 Nov 2005 14:59 GMT
> Jesus f.cking christ

now that's an image.  Is that a canadian thing, Jesus masturbating?
notritenoteri - 12 Nov 2005 16:01 GMT
It certainly wouldn't be an Amercan one especially with Pat Robertson's god
in vengance mode. I wonder where god helped outthose unfortuate peole in New
Orleans. MAybe Robertson knows something we don't?
People sent that guy  money and take him as a source of inspiration.  And
the Iraqis are crazy you say?

> > Jesus f.cking christ
>
> now that's an image.  Is that a canadian thing, Jesus masturbating?
Robert - 12 Nov 2005 18:46 GMT
Blasphemy noted.

What is your job, you never answered that?

You do not know one single thing about medicine.
george conklin - 12 Nov 2005 23:01 GMT
>> Odd reply considering I said nothing negative about the union.  Merely
>> pointed out that it exists and helps lead to better working conditions
[quoted text clipped - 114 lines]
> American
> dream as the only model for people?

 Gouging for medical care was never part of the American dream.  It WAS the
AMA's dream.
notritenoteri - 12 Nov 2005 23:51 GMT
More than a dream apparently looks like an actuality!

snippppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
>   Gouging for medical care was never part of the American dream.  It WAS the
> AMA's dream.
george conklin - 12 Nov 2005 23:55 GMT
> snippppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
>>   Gouging for medical care was never part of the American dream.  It WAS
> the
>> AMA's dream.

> More than a dream apparently looks like an actuality!

  My grandfather, the one who did house calls, thought that the AMA was in
the process of ruining American medicine.  How right he was.
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 20:07 GMT
> You're going to be in deep do-do then cause a lot of Cnadian nurses are at
> retirement age and the new crop is pretty small. Students are getting
> smarter too. Until doctors stop treating nurses like sh.t there aren't very
> many going into the field.

Until Canadians stop treating all healthcare professionals like sh.t you
will always have a shortage.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 20:14 GMT
>> You're going to be in deep do-do then cause a lot of Cnadian nurses are
>> at
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Until Canadians stop treating all healthcare professionals like sh.t you
> will always have a shortage.

  You mean Canada has a physician shortage?  It seems from the data you
deleted they have a SURPLUS.

   Sorry your FActs are so screwed up.
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 20:39 GMT
"george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message >    You mean Canada has
a physician shortage?  It seems from the data you
> deleted they have a SURPLUS.
>
>     Sorry your FActs are so screwed up.

I am just amazed on how you seem to think that people in charge of the
system don't know what they are doing.

How many doctors are leaving Canada and how many American doctors are going
there instead?
You know more than the Canadian Prime Minister George maybe you should speak
to him before he spends all that money on training new doctors.

"There is a need to increase supply of health care professionals in Canada,
including doctors, nurses, pharmacists and technologists. These shortages
are particularly acute in some parts of the country."

A 10-year plan to strengthen health care
September 16, 2004

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news.asp?id=260
notritenoteri - 10 Nov 2005 21:24 GMT
OUr prime minsiter is about as smart as your president in other words
complete #1 a.sholes.  Healthcare isqa provincial responsiblity the Feds
only supply money to provincial budgets, nothing else.

> "george conklin" <george@nxu.edu> wrote in message >    You mean Canada has
> a physician shortage?  It seems from the data you
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news.asp?id=260
Robert - 10 Nov 2005 21:34 GMT
> OUr prime minsiter is about as smart as your president in other words
> complete #1 a.sholes.  Healthcare isqa provincial responsiblity the Feds
> only supply money to provincial budgets, nothing else.

And the provincial politicians are not a.sholes?
Try reading about the NF and problems there.
You place your entire healthcare system under a.sholes.
george conklin - 10 Nov 2005 22:02 GMT
>> OUr prime minsiter is about as smart as your president in other words
>> complete #1 a.sholes.  Healthcare isqa provincial responsiblity the Feds
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Try reading about the NF and problems there.
> You place your entire healthcare system under a.sholes.

 We already have in the USA.  We call it the AMA.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Nov 2005 23:45 GMT
> > And the provin