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Medical Forum / General / General / November 2005

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canada's deadly P3 hospital boondoggles

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fresh~horses - 03 Nov 2005 04:15 GMT
Canada's Deadly 'P3' Hospital Boondoggles
Link Address:
http://www.thetyee.ca/Views/2005/10/27/HospitalBoondoggles
Published: 2005-10-27 22:56:00
By Murray Dobbin
TheTyee.ca

Zooming costs, worse care, more deaths.

It's difficult and perhaps pointless to try to pick the most dangerous
threat to public Medicare in Canada - the drug companies' profit
margins, Alberta's ideologically-addled Ralph Klein, the Canadian
Medical Association's endorsement of more privatization, the shockingly
misinformed decision by the Supreme Court allowing for competing
private services within the public system. All of these endanger public
health care. But, perhaps, the most immediate threat is the de-facto
privatization of our hospitals through the use of public private
partnerships known as P3s.

I recently spent a week in Ontario speaking on this topic to audiences
of concerned citizens because the Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty
recently announced that the Liberal government was planning fourteen P3
hospitals around the province - and possibly more. This, after he
explicitly attacked this very model during the last Ontario provincial
election; denouncing the previous Tory government and saying P3
hospitals were too expensive, had excessively long contracts and would
lead to US-style health care. He was right on all counts. The fact that
he has blatantly broken his promise demonstrates just how determined
private health corporations are to get their greedy mitts on billions
of health care dollars.

The fourteen hospital plan in Ontario is a massive commitment to P3s
that is being vigorously opposed by the Ontario Health Coalition. If
successful, it could open the P3 hospital flood gates across the
country. There is already one P3 hospital being built in Abbotsford and
another planned for St Paul's Hospital in Vancouver.

'Paying with your money and your life'

Most hospital P3s involve contracting a private consortium to design,
build, finance and operate the hospital, usually based on extremely
long contracts of 25 or 30 years. They "bundle" all the services not
directly involving medical staff into a single contract with guaranteed
revenue streams to a host of private service providers; from cleaning
and maintenance to food, records and laundry. It is virtually
impossible to terminate any individual contract without terminating the
whole; at a potential cost of hundreds of millions.

The mix of profits and hospitals is deadly and costly, as revealed by
McMaster University studies published in the Canadian Medical
Association Journal. "Canadian governments would pay an extra $7.2
billion in annual health care costs if Canada switched to
investor-owned private for-profit hospitals," reported the study.
According to Dr. P.J. Devereaux, the lead author of the study, "With
for-profit care, you end up paying with your money, and your life." He
based his statement on a previous study by the group that showed the
switch to for-profit hospitals would result in an additional 2,200
unnecessary deaths every year.

It could also result in massive fraud, as it has in the US. In the
mid-1990s, health-care fraud by U.S. corporate giants was estimated as
high as $100 billion annually. Washington actually started catching up
with some of these crooks by 1994 -- the year that National Medical
Enterprises paid a then-record $379 million in fines and restitution
for fraud in psychiatric services. In 1997, the mega-giant Tenet
Healthcare Corp. agreed to pay $100 million to settle claims that
patients were kept in psychiatric hospitals simply to maximize
insurance payments. Columbia/HCA Health Corp., America's largest
hospital company, agreed to pay $745 million to settle civil fraud
charges for systematically ripping off Medicare.

Pressures cause staff cuts

The record of P3 hospitals in Britain is so appalling that the Labour
government (still inexplicably committed to the model) has said it may
have to raise taxes to pay for the huge additional costs attributed to
the P3s. The P3 promise of cost-saving has been debunked so thoroughly
that most advocates no longer even make the claim. The P3 contractor
not only pays a higher interest rate for financing but also extracts a
return on investment averaging 16 percent. Add to that the astronomical
executive pay packages and you can see why costs skyrocket. The only
course left to "save" money is to decrease staff and downgrade their
qualifications. In Britain, after almost fifteen years of P3s, the
number of nurse managers was down 35 percent, registered nurses down 14
percent and untrained staff was up 24 percent.

The P3 hospital in Brampton, Ontario provides a good example of how
costs get out of control. The original price was set at $350 million.
But then the government sat down and negotiated with the overall
contractor and all the individual service providers. By the end of this
process the price was $550 million. The Abbotsford example is just as
telling. Before the 35-year contract was even signed, the payments to
lawyers and consultants were a staggering $24 million. The total cost
went from $210 to $355 million; the cost of the yearly operating
contract went from $20 million to $41 million.

Why would governments pursue such a patently idiotic path that is
designed to create ever more debt, while claiming at the same time, the
government can't give teachers a raise, fund child care, or reduce
tuition fees? Simple. Creating debt to enrich your friends is fine;
spending on the needs of ordinary citizens is not.

Murray Dobbin's 'State of the Nation' column appears twice monthly on
The Tyee.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
notritenoteri - 03 Nov 2005 05:56 GMT
Bullshit! THis is just another op ed piece with a few allegations and fewer
facts sprinkled into make it look semi-credible.
On second thought its not bullshit its horseshit.
> Canada's Deadly 'P3' Hospital Boondoggles
> Link Address:
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 03 Nov 2005 06:09 GMT
> Bullshit! THis is just another op ed piece with a few allegations and fewer
> facts sprinkled into make it look semi-credible.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> > Zooming costs, worse care, more deaths.

COMMENT:

I dunno what everybody's so embarrassed about, in these P3's. Some
Canadian *provinces* already have direct contracts with some US
hospitals to send particular complex cases with long wait-times, across
the border for faster care. Is it the length of the contracts you're
worried about?  Here's Canada's chance to find out how expensive
running such high-tech hospitals can be, instead of just using them "on
margin," as it were. I'm all for it. Think of them as "teaching
hospitals."

SBH
fresh~horses - 03 Nov 2005 06:47 GMT
> > Bullshit! THis is just another op ed piece with a few allegations and fewer
> > facts sprinkled into make it look semi-credible.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> SBH

Ushering in P3s owned by their right-wing buddies is what conservative
cuts to infrastructure has been about, since approx 1991.

You refuse to understand why our healthcare system is crumbling. It's
not becasue we are too cheap to finance it properly. It's because it's
a political conservative agenda to break the back of univesal
healthcare, to starve it for funding, and then bring in private, which
they and their buddies will own. It's a very cynical way of lining
their pockets; over people's misery and deaths and ignoring people
protesting and asking for more funding to our system; voting and
petitioning and picketing and marching in the thousands to protest the
conservative government shutting down and blowing up our hosptials. Up
until 1991 we had a great universal healthcare system. Then it was
taken over by people who deliberately crippled it and the fix that is
offered is to sell it down the river to foreigners.

How would you like it if your healthcare system was being sold to
foreigners?
Duncan Patton - 03 Nov 2005 15:49 GMT
> You refuse to understand why our healthcare system is crumbling. It's
> not becasue we are too cheap to finance it properly. It's because it's
> a political conservative agenda to break the back of univesal
> healthcare, to starve it for funding, and then bring in private, which

The mechanism would appear to be irrellevant and oppressive standards and
regulations regarding privacy and access, which will not be dealt with
any better by private industry except tha the responsibility for failure
will be dispersed.

Dhu

Signature

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Can't get good help?  

Contact Fubar the Hack: fubar AT neotext.ca

Area code seven eight zero, Exchange four six six, Local zero one zero nine

Highland terms, Canadian workmanship.

All persons named herein are purely fictional victims
of the Canidian Bagle Breeder's Association.

Save the Bagle!

Sun Ðhu

???????????????????????????????????????

Robert - 03 Nov 2005 20:03 GMT
On 2 Nov 2005 21:47:53 -0800
"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote:

> You refuse to understand why our healthcare system is crumbling. It's
> not becasue we are too cheap to finance it properly. It's because it's
> a political conservative agenda to break the back of univesal
> healthcare, to starve it for funding, and then bring in private, which

The mechanism would appear to be irrellevant and oppressive standards and
regulations regarding privacy and access, which will not be dealt with
any better by private industry except tha the responsibility for failure
will be dispersed.

Dhu

That's true but change is needed because the way it stands now it's dead.
You are a victum of it's own success. Everybody wants everything because
it's free and so the waits are increasing and the costs are increasing and
the people who pay for all of this is decreasing and the old are increasing.
notritenoteri - 03 Nov 2005 20:50 GMT
Tell you what immigrant you fix the US system first then come tell us what
to do till then smile!

> On 2 Nov 2005 21:47:53 -0800
> "fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> it's free and so the waits are increasing and the costs are increasing and
> the people who pay for all of this is decreasing and the old are increasing.
Robert - 03 Nov 2005 21:40 GMT
> Tell you what immigrant you fix the US system first then come tell us what
> to do till then smile!

There is no US system. If the US is looking for a national payer system then
we will look around as to what's available.
It is up to Canada to present it's system as a model. It's failing.
It depends on the FDA and other countries research which are not included in
it's own GNP. It is living off of other countries in an effort in reducing
costs. It reduces cost also by making Canadians leave the country for
surgeries in the US. It also reduces costs by having residency training in
the US as they close in Canada. In short it became much more dependent on
the US healthcare and research which is why it can reduced it's GNP.

It is the US military power scenario with Costa Rica eliminating all it's
military in order to save money for social programs. When trouble came there
way by Nicaragua then the US sent in the 82 Rangers.
Peter White - 03 Nov 2005 21:50 GMT
Robert you are a f.cking moron, run for president

>>Tell you what immigrant you fix the US system first then come tell us what
>>to do till then smile!
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> military in order to save money for social programs. When trouble came there
> way by Nicaragua then the US sent in the 82 Rangers.
notritenoteri - 03 Nov 2005 22:47 GMT
Are you really an orderly?

> > Tell you what immigrant you fix the US system first then come tell us what
> > to do till then smile!
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> military in order to save money for social programs. When trouble came there
> way by Nicaragua then the US sent in the 82 Rangers.
Robert - 04 Nov 2005 08:56 GMT
> Are you really an orderly?

janitor.
notritenoteri - 04 Nov 2005 22:51 GMT
Good for you.  It is a task that hospitals need done and done well. I'm not
being snide or sarchastic. You are just as important to the patients as  the
rest of the personnel. It is sad that people don't recognize it.

> > Are you really an orderly?
>
> janitor.
Henny - 04 Nov 2005 23:02 GMT
>Good for you.  It is a task that hospitals need done and done well. I'm not
>being snide or sarchastic. You are just as important to the patients as  the
>rest of the personnel. It is sad that people don't recognize it.

You have a good point, in fact part of the blame concerning the Toronto SARS
outbreak was put on hospitals outsourcing second rate janitorial staff who
weren't as through in their duties, the previous staff were let go as part of
the effort to cut costs.  The comments did come from the union of the
previous janitorial staff which was let go, but their comments were also
supported to a degree by the results of the inquiry into the spread of SARS
in the hospitals where SARS was spreading at the time.
fresh~horses - 05 Nov 2005 00:24 GMT
> >Good for you.  It is a task that hospitals need done and done well. I'm not
> >being snide or sarchastic. You are just as important to the patients as  the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> supported to a degree by the results of the inquiry into the spread of SARS
> in the hospitals where SARS was spreading at the time.

You mean the cleaning staff were let go in the first round of bringing
in American for-proft privatization.
Henny - 05 Nov 2005 00:40 GMT
>> >Good for you.  It is a task that hospitals need done and done well. I'm
>> >not being snide or sarchastic. You are just as important to the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>You mean the cleaning staff were let go in the first round of bringing
>in American for-proft privatization.

According to the union, yes.  That's an accurate assessment.  
notritenoteri - 05 Nov 2005 01:04 GMT
NO that's not true they were let go as a result of the taxpayers demand for
tax cuts. It could be argued the dead may have got exactly what they wanted
it just didn't do them much good.

> > >Good for you.  It is a task that hospitals need done and done well. I'm not
> > >being snide or sarchastic. You are just as important to the patients as  the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> You mean the cleaning staff were let go in the first round of bringing
> in American for-proft privatization.
American Hillbilly - 03 Nov 2005 17:35 GMT
> Ushering in P3s owned by their right-wing buddies is what conservative
> cuts to infrastructure has been about, since approx 1991.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> conservative government shutting down and blowing up our hosptials. Up
> until 1991 we had a great universal healthcare system.

All Americans are told that the American way is always the right way, that's because the sun orbits around the USA.  Americans never bother to understand how things work outside of the USA because they know that they're never wrong.   They just assume that the US template applies to everybody else so they don't need to understand how things really work.  Americans have been told from birth that everything they do is always the right way to do something so facts are immaterial.  The USA ranks 37th on the list of OECD countries for its deplorable healthcare compared to Canada's 30th, more proof that America is number 1, their healthcare system has no problems of its own and all countries should ditch their current systems for one just the third rate system in the USA.  Even educated Americans spout US private health care lobby propaganda because they're conditioned from birth to believe that they're the best.  That's why all they can do is criticize the health care systems of others and never their own.  The private healthcare lobby tells them to ignore the WHO surveys and soldier on with the belief that somehow they're the best in the world.   If you point out their deficiencies, all they do is wave the flag and humm loudly in an effort to ignore you.
Robert - 03 Nov 2005 20:23 GMT
> All Americans are told that the American way is always the >right way,
that's because the sun orbits around the USA.

I wasn't born here so I don't know how you were raised but I can tell you
that there are many immigrants out there who were not told that come here
and would be happy to take your jobs if you are unhappy about it.

> Americans never bother to understand how things work >outside of the USA
because they know that they're never >wrong.   They just assume that the US
template applies to >everybody else so they don't need to understand how
things >really work.  Americans have been told from birth that >everything
they do is always the right way to do something so >facts are immaterial.
The USA ranks 37th on the list of OECD >countries for its deplorable
healthcare compared to Canada's >30th, more proof that America is number 1,
their healthcare >system has no problems of its own and all countries should
ditch >their current systems for one just the third rate system in the >USA.

There is no one system in the US. There is the uninsured with Medicaid
healthcare. The is private insurance. There is the VA healthcare and then
there is Medicare health care.
Where you stand depends on what group you are in with ranking system. Where
do the aboriginals rank in the Canadian health rate in terms of world
rankings or even within Canadian care?

> Even educated Americans spout US private health care lobby >propaganda
because they're conditioned from birth to believe >that they're the best.
That's why all they can do is criticize the >health care systems of others
and never their own.  The private >healthcare lobby tells them to ignore the
WHO surveys and >soldier on with the belief that somehow they're the best in
the >world.   If you point out their deficiencies, all they do is wave the
>flag and humm loudly in an effort to ignore you.

Somehow you don't sound American otherwise you would say "we" Americans.

There are plenty who would like to switch positions with you dude.

"Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your
country".

Go fight for your country and you will be eligible for the VA benefits as a
veteran.
notritenoteri - 03 Nov 2005 20:53 GMT
the standing  one has depends on how much wealth you have or have access to.
You can be an abo, a wagon burner, a sand weasel, a towlie or white trailer
trash and if you have money you'll be perfectly acceptable even in you wipe
your a.s and eat with the same fingers.

> > All Americans are told that the American way is always the >right way,
> that's because the sun orbits around the USA.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> Go fight for your country and you will be eligible for the VA benefits as a
> veteran.
Duncan Patton - 04 Nov 2005 10:12 GMT
> All Americans are told that the American way is always the right way, that's because the sun orbits around the USA.  Americans

Used to be so; the American way *was* the right way because the didn't let any idiot cultural prejudice make the pick.

Dhu

Signature

???????????????????????????????????????

Can't get good help?  

Contact Fubar the Hack: fubar AT neotext.ca

Area code seven eight zero, Exchange four six six, Local zero one zero nine

Highland terms, Canadian workmanship.

All persons named herein are purely fictional victims
of the Canidian Bagle Breeder's Association.

Save the Bagle!

Sun Ðhu

???????????????????????????????????????

 
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