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Medical Forum / General / General / November 2005escape from kashechewan
{{home sweet home}} ESCAPE FROM KASHECHEWAN Those most affected by northern reserve's tainted water head south toward safety By JULIUS STRAUSS Friday, October 28, 2005 Page A1 KASHECHEWAN RESERVE, ONT. -- In the early morning chill, Kashechewan's sick and vulnerable huddled together in small groups yesterday near the gravel airstrip that is their only year-round link with the outside world. Some of the smaller children had pus-filled sores and blisters on their hands that their parents blame on the E. coli that has infected the drinking water. Others complained of itchy skin and painful rashes they say were caused by heavy doses of chlorine used in an apparently futile attempt by the authorities to kill the bacteria. The evacuation of this 1,700-strong Cree reserve on James Bay, 400 kilometres north of Timmins, began in earnest yesterday. Advertisements Register Three small planes arrived to ship the needy to communities further south where they will spend the winter in hotels or with relatives. The first flight of the day was reserved for those most affected by the poisonous water. On the late afternoon flight there were pregnant women and mothers with small children and their immediate relatives. Among those to be taken to Sudbury was Christopher Wesley, 20, and his one-year-old son Roman, who waited in line with close to 50 people to board the twin-turbo prop. Emma Koosees, a band counsellor, was escorting her 17-year-old daughter Erika who is seven months pregnant, and two other smaller children. Erika, her mother said, had become sick because of the bad water in Kashechewan and there were fears she would lose her unborn child if she isn't treated quickly. It was only yesterday afternoon that Ms. Koosees and her family learned they had a spot on a plane out after other residents postponed their departure. They had only two hours to pack. "I don't even know if we'll ever come back," Ms. Koosees said. "All I've got is my clothes. I left everything else behind. But we have to get away from this terrible water." By late afternoon it was still unclear whether the evacuations would mark the beginning of the end for Kashechewan, a settlement established in the 1950s on ancient hunting grounds. Many residents are demanding that the federal government finance the construction of a new community built from scratch on higher ground at a cost that would likely run into hundreds of millions of dollars. Last night, after a day of high emotion, the federal government agreed to start the community over again in a new location. After years of watching as their complaints about poor water quality, substandard housing and federal cutbacks fell on deaf ears, the natives of Kashechewan were shocked that their plight was suddenly of national interest. At the airstrip several held banners. "Dogs drink better water," one read. "Third Nations," said another. Judy Stephen, a 48-year-old teacher, said: "We're very frustrated with the federal government. They seem to be listening now but their actions are so limited. And they've known about this for years." Apportioning blame for the putrid condition of Kashechewan's water is no simple matter. Multiple authorities -- provincial, federal and local -- have had a say in the construction and operation of the water purification and sewage management systems that have led to the crisis. Most residents say the lion's share of the fault lies at Ottawa's door. Stephanie Williams, 31, a librarian, said: "I'm surprised at how quickly they send aid to other countries. Maybe we deserve the same treatment as those abroad." At a lunchtime meeting in the school gym attended by hundreds of local residents, one speaker called for the resignation of Indian Affairs Minister Andy Scott. Henry Koosees, 31, said: "I came from Timmins 13 years ago and there was a boil-water advisory in place then. That's how I know the government has been neglecting our people." For most non-aboriginal Canadians the bitterness and squalor on the Kashechewan reserve would be deeply shocking. Overcrowding is endemic. Family members often live three or four to a room, the windows of many houses are boarded up and garbage litters the gardens and ditches. Empty bottles of vodka -- smuggled in and sold by bootleggers at up to $100 a bottle -- are strewn in many gardens. Unemployment is rife, with estimates suggesting that up to 80 per cent of adults are without work. When monthly welfare cheques were given out at the band office yesterday afternoon the queue snaked out of the front door and into the streets. "If people in Hamilton saw this sort of thing on their way to work there would be a huge outcry," a member of the security forces from Southern Ontario said yesterday. "But nobody sees what happens up here. Nobody ever comes here." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051028/EVACUATE 28/TPHealth/ > {{home sweet home}} > [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051028/EVACUATE 28/TPHealth/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"You don't glow in the dark right away"~~~~~~~~~ CRISIS AT KASHECHEWAN Tainted tap water common on reserves across province Kashechewan not alone: Supply at another Ontario community laced with uranium By KAREN HOWLETT Friday, October 28, 2005 Page A9 With a report from Bill Curry "...Health Canada issued the advisory because the tap water on the reserve was at risk of compromising public health. Joe Meekis, the reserve's public-works manager, said in an interview that no one has become ill from the water. That's because it would take several years for the trace amounts of uranium in the water to build up in someone's system. Health Canada officials have told residents they would have to drink large quantities of tap water for a long time before they became ill, Mr. Meekis said. "You don't glow in the dark right away." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051028/EVACONTA 28/TPHealth/ If the indians had any brains they would have burned the whole place down years ago, got off their a.s, and joined the rest of humanity. > {{home sweet home}} > [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051028/EVACUATE 28/TPHealth/ How can you be so NOT-PC? These are disadvantaged, traumatised people who are our responsibility. DOn't you feel guilt and shame after reading the sack-wrenching article? I know my scrotum just tingles with desperation over the plight of these folks. Once again whitey is at fault. It would be interesting to know how much teh average family income has been over say the last 10 years for people in this settlement. How can you fault them for wanting to live in their time honoured ways? Trouble is they forgot the nasty bits like starvation and disease to keep the population and pollution down. > If the indians had any brains they would have burned the whole place down years ago, got off > their a.s, and joined the rest of humanity. [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] > > > > "But nobody sees what happens up here. Nobody ever comes here." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051028/EVAC UATE28/TPHealth/ > them for wanting to live in their time honoured ways? Trouble is they > forgot the nasty bits like starvation and disease to keep the population and > pollution down. Isn't universal healthcare available to all or only to non-natives? I guess you have people die equally without discrimination on waiting lists and the indigenous population die from neglect, a form of waiting. Canada is very good at keeping it's GNP ratio very low. > How can you be so NOT-PC? These are disadvantaged, traumatised people who > are our responsibility. DOn't you feel guilt and shame after reading the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > forgot the nasty bits like starvation and disease to keep the population and > pollution down. COMMENT: There's not that much (waterborne) disease if you follow the nomadic dictum of "sh.t and move on." It's where people try to live like "civilization" without good use of the technology of civilization (which means really good water treatment) that you get epidemics. And problems such as you see here. I take a dim view of journalists and flacks trying to spin this as "uranium in the water supply" issue. The problem is feces in the water supply. SBH > > How can you be so NOT-PC? These are disadvantaged, traumatised people who > > are our responsibility. DOn't you feel guilt and shame after reading the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > (which means really good water treatment) that you get epidemics. And > problems such as you see here. ~~ I take a dim view of journalists and flacks trying to spin this as "uranium in the water supply" issue. The problem is feces in the water supply. SBH ~~ The way I posted this has caused confusion. There are two different posts with stories on two different communities. Keewaywin is approx 1000 km. west of Kashechewan but both are in the province of Ontario. CRISIS AT KASHECHEWAN Tainted tap water common on reserves across province Kashechewan not alone: Supply at another Ontario community laced with uranium By KAREN HOWLETT Friday, October 28, 2005 Page A9 With a report from Bill Curry TORONTO -- The tiny Keewaywin Reserve in Northern Ontario has come up with its own jerry-rigged method to deal with its tainted tap water. It is using a reverse-osmosis machine at the local Northern Stores to filter out contaminants from the drinking water. But that still leaves the community's 425 residents bathing and washing their clothes in water laced with uranium. --------snip----- http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051028/EVACONTA 28/TPHealth/ > The way I posted this has caused confusion. There are two different > posts with stories on two different communities. Keewaywin is approx [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > --------snip----- > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051028/EVACONTA 28/TPHealth/ I get a kick out of the Globe headline: "Can they build a future" Everyone else in this country is faced with the same problem. All 33 million of us. We all have to earn some sort of a living. There's not enough room to put all of our pictures on the front of the Globe though. What's so special about this guy and his child? There are people who arrive here with virtually nothing and they all make their way, pay taxes and build a life. I hate to speak this way but is there something inferior about these people that they cannot work?? Over taxed pony where is your guilt boy. Don't you know whitey is evil? These people have been horribly wronged and even though you are not personabley responsible you should be feeling guilty and repentent for the deeds of those long dead. After you pay your share of the 1.6 billion I'm sure you will feel a lot better I know I will -- in a piogs eye! > > The way I posted this has caused confusion. There are two different > > posts with stories on two different communities. Keewaywin is approx [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > > --------snip----- http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051028/EVAC ONTA28/TPHealth/ > I get a kick out of the Globe headline: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Over taxed pony Had the Canadian Government had the balls to start treating these natives like everyday people back when I was a boy all these people would be integrated into normal society by now. They would have had the pride of working and raising families and seeing their children leading normal productive lives not unlike any other in Canada. If everyone can integrate into Canadian society then why not the Indians? The Chinese do. The Pakistanis do. The Indians do. The English Irish Scotch Dutch Germans, all of them. Then why must our native Indians (and the French) be special and have to be supported? > where is your guilt boy. Don't you know whitey is evil? These people have > been horribly wronged and even though you are not personabley responsible [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > > > Over taxed pony COme on now these people are "special" they all say they are. Remember whitey stole their land and etc etc etc. Where's your guilt? > Had the Canadian Government had the balls to start treating these natives like > everyday people back when I was a boy all these people would be integrated into [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > > > > > > > --------snip----- http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051028/EVAC > > ONTA28/TPHealth/ > > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > > > > > Over taxed pony (Smells like Walkerton, only it'll cost us more.) > COme on now these people are "special" they all say they are. Remember > whitey stole their land and etc etc etc. Where's your guilt? Expert tests water on reserve It's safe to drink: Officials link scare to poor management, lack of training Lee Greenberg and Heather Sokoloff The Ottawa Citizen; The National Post http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=92418f3b-a4b7-428b -bf0a-5111ab965802 Tap water at a remote Northern Ontario native community in the grips of an emergency evacuation is good enough to drink, according to the technician sent in to take over management of the Kashe-chewan water treatment plant. Chris LeBlanc, a process expert with Northern Waterworks Inc., said he is drinking and showering in the troubled community's water. Mr. LeBlanc also disputed native leaders' claims that the tap water was brown as recently as Thursday. "That would be incorrect," he said in a telephone interview yesterday. Tests show the water contained 12 colour units at around 11:30 a.m., he said. "You wouldn't even notice (any discolouration) under 30." By contrast, on Oct. 15, the day he was dispatched by the federal government to take over control of the reserve's treatment plant, the reading was 176 colour units -- or very murky. Mr. LeBlanc's comments suggest the tainted water crisis in Kashechewan is a man-made problem created by poor management and training. That claim is supported by government officials, who yesterday said the people running the Kashechewan water treatment plant were not certified to do so until the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs flew in trained personnel this week. Kashechewan is a remote native community 400 kilometres north of Timmins. Fully 61 per cent of people running water treatment facilities on native reserves are not certified, according to the federal government. Yesterday, Mr. LeBlanc said the high levels of E. coli in the reserve's water, which were discovered on Oct. 14 by the federal government, were likely caused by fears of chlorine. Chlorine is put in water to kill bacteria, such as the potentially fatal E. coli, but it often prompts complaints from people who don't like the smell. "The community doesn't like the smell of chlorine in water," he said, which often results in them "pressuring (operators) to shut off the chlorine in the water. "So they do." The result, he said, is that many native communities are like "Walkerton waiting to happen." In May 2000, seven people in Walkerton, Ont., died after drinking water contaminated with E. coli bacteria. Two brothers who managed the city's water system were subsequently convicted of negligence, in part because of their failure to sufficiently chlorinate it. The situation in Kashechewan "is identical to Walkerton, a malfunction in the chlorination system ... and the back-up system didn't work because it had never been hooked up," Mr. LeBlanc said in a previous report. Mr. LeBlanc said the reserve's water supply has tested negative for E. coli every day since the initial positive test. And, he said the Kashechewan water has lower chlorine levels than Timmins. On Thursday, he proved his point by drinking a glass of water in front of reporters, and revealed that he showers in it regularly. Nonetheless, about 750 of the 1,700 residents on the reserve had left it by last night. They have been flown to Sudbury, Cochrane and Timmins. But Mr. LeBlanc said the community's fears of the water are unfounded, arguing that reports linking scabies and impetigo -- the two most widespread health ailments reported in the community -- with the town's water are misleading. > (Smells like Walkerton, only it'll cost us more.) > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The Ottawa Citizen; The National Post > http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=92418f3b-a4b7-428b -bf0a-5111ab965802 If that is actually the case then there is no need to move them. Last night I had to laugh when I heard a woman say that her kid got a cold sore again after bathing in the water. Obviously someone needs to explain to her that cold sores are the gift that keeps on giving and you don't 'catch them again'. Gabby >>(Smells like Walkerton, only it'll cost us more.) >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Gabby There was just a recorded speech from the head (or spoksman) of the First Nations. He said that he wanted all of their people to realize "the dream of all Canadians." I near sh.t!!! I doubt if he means his people are actually going to go to work and earn their own dream. > > (Smells like Walkerton, only it'll cost us more.) > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > If that is actually the case then there is no need to move them. I think the whole place is a disgrace and should be burnt down but I have seen the same thing all over the country. The people have no challenge in their lives and turn to drink, gas, or drugs to escape. You cannot get drunk every night if you have to earn a living to put food in your own mouth (to say nothing of the kids that are made for want of entertainment and all need to be fed.) Stop crippling them, and force them to help themselves. All the Chiefs seem to simply squeeze everything they can out of working Canadians to support their own lifestyle and the natives are the pawns in the thievery. > Last night > I had to laugh when I heard a woman say that her kid got a cold sore again [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Gabby > Had the Canadian Government had the balls to start treating these natives like > everyday people back when I was a boy all these people would be integrated into [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Germans, all of them. Then why must our native Indians (and the French) be > special and have to be supported? Isn't it the Canadian way to expect the government to solve all our problems? Won't any problem just go away if you throw enough bags of money at it? It is too much easier to let something roll on unchanged than to get your hands dirty fixing it the way it needs to be fixed. > > Had the Canadian Government had the balls to start treating these natives like > > everyday people back when I was a boy all these people would be integrated into [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It is too much easier to let something roll on unchanged than to get > your hands dirty fixing it the way it needs to be fixed. I agree with what everyone above has said which is why the Canadian healthcare system is in trouble for the same reasons. People should work and obtain benefits that way. "Give" somebody something and it becomes an endless pit. Bullshit! can you say bullshit?? > > > Had the Canadian Government had the balls to start treating these > natives like [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > People should work and obtain benefits that way. "Give" somebody something > and it becomes an endless pit. The problem is further compounded by having the water system inlet 30 or 40 metres from the sewage outflow. Don't worry about them though Martin is going to piss 1.6 billion to fix their problem. If the estimate is as good as the gun registry we should be good for 5 - 8 Billion. What a great time to be a waggonburner. > > How can you be so NOT-PC? These are disadvantaged, traumatised people who > > are our responsibility. DOn't you feel guilt and shame after reading the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > SBH >The problem is further compounded by having the water system inlet 30 or 40 >metres from the sewage outflow. Don't worry about them though Martin is >going to piss 1.6 billion to fix their problem. If the estimate is as good >as the gun registry we should be good for 5 - 8 Billion. What a great time >to be a waggonburner. According to the reports I've read and heard, Canada has no laws which govern water quality on First Nation reserves. This is a matter of more government involvement, not less. If the reserves had the same set of laws to abide by as the rest of Canada's people, they probably wouldn't have this problem in the first place. > >The problem is further compounded by having the water system inlet 30 or 40 > >metres from the sewage outflow. Don't worry about them though Martin is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > as the rest of Canada's people, they probably wouldn't have this problem in > the first place. They cry foul when surrounded by the sh.t abyss they create, and apparently we have to pay and pay to make up for things we never did wrong. yah yah lets have more rules and laws. Since when did reservations come under separate laws? Besides water quality is not a federal responsibility as far as I know. It is about time the self-defined "victims" started taking some responsibility for their own problems. If someone wants to run around in the bush and play stone age hunter then maybe they should be prepared for the down side? How much sophistication does it take to figure out if one sh.ts in the water then drinks it he/she might just get sick? > >The problem is further compounded by having the water system inlet 30 or 40 > >metres from the sewage outflow. Don't worry about them though Martin is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > as the rest of Canada's people, they probably wouldn't have this problem in > the first place. > yah yah lets have more rules and laws. Since when did reservations come > under separate laws? Besides water quality is not a federal responsibility [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the down side? How much sophistication does it take to figure out if one > sh.ts in the water then drinks it he/she might just get sick? When the site for this reserve was chosen by the gov't of the day and over the objections of the people, it should have been obvious to the experts that there would be water problems. But the gov't, with the infinite wisdom it's always demonstrated where natives are concerned, knew what was best. We've seen it over and over again. It's just like Davis Inlet: stick the natives on an island where the only running water will be at the school (provincial gov't responsibility) and the rectory (diocesan responsibility). Then when there is a fire, stand and watch 6 kids burn to death because there is no running to fight a fire. Gabby > > yah yah lets have more rules and laws. Since when did reservations come > > under separate laws? Besides water quality is not a federal responsibility [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Gabby Expert tests water on reserve It's safe to drink: Officials link scare to poor management, lack of training Lee Greenberg and Heather Sokoloff The Ottawa Citizen; The National Post October 29, 2005 Tap water at a remote Northern Ontario native community in the grips of an emergency evacuation is good enough to drink, according to the technician sent in to take over management of the Kashe-chewan water treatment plant. Chris LeBlanc, a process expert with Northern Waterworks Inc., said he is drinking and showering in the troubled community's water. Mr. LeBlanc also disputed native leaders' claims that the tap water was brown as recently as Thursday. "That would be incorrect," he said in a telephone interview yesterday. Tests show the water contained 12 colour units at around 11:30 a.m., he said. "You wouldn't even notice (any discolouration) under 30." By contrast, on Oct. 15, the day he was dispatched by the federal government to take over control of the reserve's treatment plant, the reading was 176 colour units -- or very murky. Mr. LeBlanc's comments suggest the tainted water crisis in Kashechewan is a man-made problem created by poor management and training. That claim is supported by government officials, who yesterday said the people running the Kashechewan water treatment plant were not certified to do so until the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs flew in trained personnel this week. Kashechewan is a remote native community 400 kilometres north of Timmins. Fully 61 per cent of people running water treatment facilities on native reserves are not certified, according to the federal government. Yesterday, Mr. LeBlanc said the high levels of E. coli in the reserve's water, which were discovered on Oct. 14 by the federal government, were likely caused by fears of chlorine. Chlorine is put in water to kill bacteria, such as the potentially fatal E. coli, but it often prompts complaints from people who don't like the smell. "The community doesn't like the smell of chlorine in water," he said, which often results in them "pressuring (operators) to shut off the chlorine in the water. "So they do." The result, he said, is that many native communities are like "Walkerton waiting to happen." In May 2000, seven people in Walkerton, Ont., died after drinking water contaminated with E. coli bacteria. Two brothers who managed the city's water system were subsequently convicted of negligence, in part because of their failure to sufficiently chlorinate it. The situation in Kashechewan "is identical to Walkerton, a malfunction in the chlorination system ... and the back-up system didn't work because it had never been hooked up," Mr. LeBlanc said in a previous report. Mr. LeBlanc said the reserve's water supply has tested negative for E. coli every day since the initial positive test. And, he said the Kashechewan water has lower chlorine levels than Timmins. On Thursday, he proved his point by drinking a glass of water in front of reporters, and revealed that he showers in it regularly. Nonetheless, about 750 of the 1,700 residents on the reserve had left it by last night. They have been flown to Sudbury, Cochrane and Timmins. But Mr. LeBlanc said the community's fears of the water are unfounded, arguing that reports linking scabies and impetigo -- the two most widespread health ailments reported in the community -- with the town's water are misleading. Life's a bitch ain't it. If govts (that's US) were perfect we'd need less of them and less laws. From what I've seen the people that are in the reserve in James Bay wanted to be there. Many years ago I had to make an economic decision whether to stay where I was or move and get a better deal for my family. I made the move. For 35 years I've lived a 1000 miles from my roots. My grandparents before them moved 5000 miles from their family. I don't think they regretted it. I know I don't. I don't feel a bit sorry for these people. I'm disgusted that after 125 years or so they haven't moved on. I also don't feel guilty nor like throwing good money after bad. Forty years ago my partner worked with one of her friends to help natives who even away back then were destroying perfectly good accommodation, drinking themselves to death and generally being a burden on the govt (that's US). They haven't learned squat apparently. Maybe its time for some hard lessons? BTW the feds didn't offer to move Walkerton when the sh.t hit the water did they? > > yah yah lets have more rules and laws. Since when did reservations come > > under separate laws? Besides water quality is not a federal responsibility [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Gabby > Life's a bitch ain't it. If govts (that's US) were perfect we'd need less > of them and less laws. From what I've seen the people that are in the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > did > they? The sh.t hit the drinking glasses in Walkerton because a few people didn't do their job. Once the job was being done properly there was no need to move anyone. If the situation in Kashechewan can be resolved cheaply by building a water treatment plant and training a few people to run it, I'd be all for that solution. Gabby > " > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Gabby Expert tests water on reserve It's safe to drink: Officials link scare to poor management, lack of training http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=92418f3b-a4b7-428b -bf0a-5111ab965802 Lee Greenberg and Heather Sokoloff The Ottawa Citizen; The National Post October 29, 2005 Tap water at a remote Northern Ontario native community in the grips of an emergency evacuation is good enough to drink, according to the technician sent in to take over management of the Kashe-chewan water treatment plant. Chris LeBlanc, a process expert with Northern Waterworks Inc., said he is drinking and showering in the troubled community's water. Mr. LeBlanc also disputed native leaders' claims that the tap water was brown as recently as Thursday. "That would be incorrect," he said in a telephone interview yesterday. Tests show the water contained 12 colour units at around 11:30 a.m., he said. I'll bet that it ain't gonna happen. The Libs are gonna work this for the native vote. It is strange but these people don't pay taxes get lifetime (thankfully short in many cases) from the govt and yet they still get to vote. Damn good deal in my books! > > Life's a bitch ain't it. If govts (that's US) were perfect we'd need less > > of them and less laws. From what I've seen the people that are in the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Gabby > > yah yah lets have more rules and laws. Since when did reservations come > > under separate laws? Besides water quality is not a federal responsibility [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > it's always demonstrated where natives are concerned, knew what was best. > We've seen it over and over again. You are right about things being undertaken by the government are no where near as good as when people do for themselves. YOu mean like Bernie Ebbers, Kenny Lay, Scooter LIbby or the dude in texas with the fake flu vaccine? > > > yah yah lets have more rules and laws. Since when did reservations come > > > under separate laws? Besides water quality is not a federal [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You are right about things being undertaken by the government are no where > near as good as when people do for themselves. > YOu mean like Bernie Ebbers, Kenny Lay, Scooter LIbby or the dude in texas > with the fake flu vaccine? I guess that's another Canadian thing I don't understand. You hate politicians so much and yet you put them in charge of your healthcare. Are you asking me if I want Lay or Libby or Bush in charge of my healthcare? Only if I were Canadian maybe. I don't want politicians running for office by telling people how many gallbladder surgeries they are increasing in order to vote for them like in Canada. It's bad enough the elderly have to put up with that crap with Medicare in the US. How much does Canada spend of it's GNP on the military in comparison to the US? That's all we need is to put them in charge of healthcare here so they can suck off all the money and put in the war budget. I guess they would think like Canadians do and simply say oh good, we reduced our GNP spent on healthcare. Fool, Ebbers and Lay are not politicians just thieves. As to politicians running healthcare you have that now you are just to stupid to admit it. The current administration is apparently the biggest porkbarrelling govt to be elected to date. I was just watching some pics of the folks in Mississippi washed out by Katrina. I always though the brits had bad dentalcare but they have nothing on you f.ckers. So much for private enterprise looking after the health of its citizens. BTW dental care is mostly private here withonly those destitute getting govt assistance. We spend very little of our GNP on the military, unlike the USA who keeps trying to take over the world. Besides we don't have all the world pissed off at us for being prize a.sholes. When will the draft start again? I hear now that every mother with a kid killed in Iraq gets a genuine general to do funeral duty. Must be a real consolation to see some fat f.cker with enough chest fruit to start a medal store showing up at your kid's funeral. > > YOu mean like Bernie Ebbers, Kenny Lay, Scooter LIbby or the dude in > texas [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > like Canadians do and simply say oh good, we reduced our GNP spent on > healthcare. > Fool, Those are all great reasons why the Canadian system won't work in the US and conversely why the Canadians can't have a US system. The answer is for Canadians to evolve like the other countries that have a socialized system have. BUllshit. The USA is just as dependent on Govt handouts as is Canadians you just don't like to admit it. I just watched HNN and saw all the folks in Florida whining about FEMA etc etc. Where's the great AMerican know how etc Why is it going to take month to restore power? We had a major ice storm here a few years back and even in the dead of winter it didn't take that long to get power restored. You guys are just a bunch of pussies. The US govt has bought 160 million flu shots. So much for the American bullshit of self-sufficiency. You boys are on the titty just like the so-called socialist countries. Yah its really funny the American system is so f.cked up that a single-payer system and all the attendant saving is going to cost billions to implement. Don't worry though when the Chinese take over they'll make it work even if they have to kill every one of you f.ckers. > > Fool, > > Those are all great reasons why the Canadian system won't work in the US and > conversely why the Canadians can't have a US system. The answer is for > Canadians to evolve like the other countries that have a socialized system > have. > BUllshit. The USA is just as dependent on Govt handouts as is Canadians you > just don't like to admit it. I just watched HNN and saw all the folks in > Florida whining about FEMA etc etc. Where's the great AMerican know how etc Exactly and that is where we agree and if you see your original post about the natives complaining about their state of affairs is what happens to a dependent people. I saw them line up for drinking water after for days and storms are seasonal and predictable so what's the excuse of not having drinking water on store at home during those months? Why do it when the government can do it. > Why is it going to take month to restore power? We had a major ice storm > here a few years back and even in the dead of winter it didn't take that > long to get power restored. You guys are just a bunch of pussies. No doubt about it. They, I mean we now, are dependent on dishwashers. Immigrants do not use dishwashers. We are also overweight and eat everything in sight. Disease impacts the affluent as it does the poor. The US > govt has bought 160 million flu shots. So much for the American bullshit > of self-sufficiency. You boys are on the titty just like the so-called > socialist countries. The advantage of having a national health system is you can buy in bulk and that alone can save a ton of money. Does Canada still have a ton of Vioxx on stock? Vaccine producers took a hit so they don't want to manufacture. > Yah its really funny the American system is so f.cked up that a single-payer > system and all the attendant saving is going to cost billions to implement. > Don't worry though when the Chinese take over they'll make it work even if > they have to kill every one of you f.ckers. The federal government mandates health benefits to those who can not afford medical care to the states. Each state has a program of Medicaid and they issue cards and take them to doctors and hospitals. We had one come here the other night in which they wanted a pregnancy test done and brought the card in. We said we needed a drs orders for the test just like anyone else. I said it might be quicker to just go the drug store and buy one and they said they didn't have the money as it is free with Medicaid. The state program is poorly funded and run by politicians similar as the Canadian system. It exists and people in Canada pretend it doesn't as though the uninsured have no healthcare at all. They do have healthcare only substandard because it falls within government. I apologize as I am posting out of Sci.med. and only noticed it is cross-posted to can.politics. I am not interested in Canadian politics. Unfortunately the tragedy lies in the fact that in Canada the two are related. So what are you looking for sympathy to your rediculous arguments? So it is different in the land of the not-so-free. Since when? > I apologize as I am posting out of Sci.med. and only noticed it is > cross-posted to can.politics. I am not interested in Canadian politics. > > Unfortunately the tragedy lies in the fact that in Canada the two are > related. > So what are you looking for sympathy to your rediculous arguments? So it is > different in the land of the not-so-free. Since when? I am not interested in Canadian politics so I won't comment further on this thread. As far as I know, except in rare circumstances such as the supposed up-coming flu pandemic govt =don't buy drugs for general distribution. The exceptions I know about are flu shots which are no direct cost to the consumer and the SARS outbreak. VIOXX is an anti-inflammatory drug and as far as the average taxpayer was concerned was at their cost with the govt having nothing to do with it except for licensing. Vaccine producers don't produce the vaccine in the USA simply because of the chill of insurance claims. You did the same thing with small aircraft and a lot of other industries. So you argue no healthcare is better than substandard? Pretty silly argument but then you are a pretty silly arguer. > > BUllshit. The USA is just as dependent on Govt handouts as is Canadians > you [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > the uninsured have no healthcare at all. They do have healthcare only > substandard because it falls within government. Cry me a river!!! I have seen these conditions many times in Alberta. The lazy bums would rather die in a pile of garbage instead of picking the damned stuff up and disposing of it properly. Same with their water supplies, don't they know that the freshwater intake should not be downstream from the sewer system? Common sense does not prevail. Why do these people wait until just before the arrival of winter before they squawk? Because, it makes good headlines. Self reliance is for OTHERS, certainly NOT for First Nations people. Others are supposed to support them for ever and a day. All they chant is TREATY RIGHTS and SEND MORE MONEY. When the Feds talked about doing away with the present paternalistic system there was a god-all-mighty protest all across Canada. Some of these have-not reserves in Alberta have existed for 120 years and little has changed in that time. They ask for a house and after getting it, proceed to wreck the damned thing through neglect or purposeful destruction. I have seen homes (in north central Alberta) where ALL of the internal structure, walls, doors and closets were demolished and burnt for firewood because the idiots couldn't or wouldn't cut firewood because that would have interfered with their partying. This is not a lie.  Signaturesunshine ======= > {{home sweet home}} > [quoted text clipped - 175 lines] > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051028/EVACUATE 28/TPHealth/ > Self reliance is for OTHERS, certainly NOT for First Nations > people. Others are supposed to support them for ever and a day. > All they chant is TREATY RIGHTS and SEND MORE MONEY. When the Your entire healthcare care system is built on the premise that there is no self reliance. You might as well socialize everything else. and your statement is built on BULLshit. The healthcare system is just another form of insurance to which there is very little opting out of paying the premiums. USA healthcare is more expensive on a per capita basis and less universal > > Self reliance is for OTHERS, certainly NOT for First Nations > > people. Others are supposed to support them for ever and a day. > > All they chant is TREATY RIGHTS and SEND MORE MONEY. When the > > Your entire healthcare care system is built on the premise that there is no > self reliance. You might as well socialize everything else. > and your statement is built on BULLshit. The healthcare system is just > another form of insurance to which there is very little opting out of paying > the premiums. USA healthcare is more expensive on a per capita basis and People who work in the US get insurance premiums and those who don't have to have government relief. It is work and get good insurance or don't work and get poor insurance. Any Canadian gets to have coverage whether they work or not and pay for it or not. It's an entilement of being a Canadian. "These are disadvantaged, traumatised people who are our responsibility. DOn't you feel guilt and shame". Yes it's called the universal healthcare single payer system. Keep on giving for free and you get, "Self reliance is for OTHERS, certainly NOT for First Nations people. Others are supposed to support them for ever and a day." All Canadians are not self reliant to the point they don't even recognize it. > less universal > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > no > > self reliance. You might as well socialize everything else. > USA healthcare is more expensive on a per capita basis and I forgot that part. Yes Canada lets to save money in denying services. That is a Canadian thing I guess when anybody mentions quality of care then you say it is cheaper in cost. They do that very well and save quite a bit of money. Rest assured that waiting times are now being monitored although it is far cheaper in making them even longer. "Affordability. Proponents of a single-payer system contend that when the government controls the cost of health care, the profit motive is removed, which means the same money can be spread over more people who can get care in a timely fashion, which saves even more money as well as lives. Thus, for them, there are no tradeoffs in moving to a government-run health care system, because everyone benefits. Government-run systems spend less as a percentage of GDP than the U.S. The presumption is that if the country is spending less of its GDP on health care, the actual cost of care must be less. However, it may be that single-payer countries are not getting as much care or as high a quality of care. The real question is not whether a country spends more or less on health care; the question is whether patients get value for the dollars spent. And the fact is most do not. That is because when most people enter the health care system, someone else - the government, an employer or an insurer - is picking up most or all of the bill. As a result, people are insulated from the cost of care and therefore tend to overconsume - driving health care spending much higher than it would be if patients were cost-conscious consumers. The irony here is that the process that makes health care affordable for the vast majority of people - a third party paying the bill - is the primary factor behind making the health care system unaffordable. In their effort to contain the cost escalation, single-payer systems and, in the U.S., employers and insurers, have stepped in to control health care utilization from the top down. How do they do it? Well, for government-run systems, administrators use spending limits and price controls. When government provides or finances health care services, it creates a tension that may undermine the availability and quality of care. The reason is that health care is forced to compete with other important claims on government funds such as education, the criminal justice system and social services. As a result, there is never enough money to fund any program as much as proponents would like. Moreover, the decision on which programs get funded and by how much is often determined more by which group has the most political power rather than a program's true needs and merits. Case Study: Canada's Budget Debate. Canada's health care system has reached a crisis over funding. In March of 2000, Canadian Health Minister Allan Rock told the House of Commons: "There are people who are waiting too long, waiting hours in the emergency ward, waiting months for referral to a specialist, waiting a year for a long-term bed, waiting what seems to be an eternity for someone to answer the call button in an understaffed hospital." In this case, however, the crisis was not instigated by budget deficits, but by a budget surplus. Some Members of Parliament wanted to pass an income tax cut of at least 20 percent, which others opposed, saying that the proposed budget only offered two cents in health care funding for every dollar in tax cuts. Ralph Klein, premier of Alberta, who wants to let for-profit clinics perform some of the procedures currently provided by Canadian hospitals, has offered one solution to the problem of waiting lines. The government health care program, known as medicare, would reimburse the clinics for the care. " http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/HealthCare/PBMatthewsCihakHealthCareQuality.html >I forgot that part. Yes Canada lets to save money in denying services. That >is a Canadian thing I guess when anybody mentions quality of care then you >say it is cheaper in cost. They do that very well and save quite a bit of >money. The care denied cases in Canada are far and few between compared to the situation in the USA which creates so many personal bankruptcies over medical bills or cases where people have no insurance at all or are underinsured. You seem to know the US system well but are not in touch with how the Canadian system works. Quoting Ralph Klein from a partisan website doesn't add much to the complete story, something which you appear to be unwilling to admit. > The care denied cases in Canada are far and few between compared to the > situation in the USA which creates so many personal bankruptcies over medical [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > add much to the complete story, something which you appear to be unwilling to > admit. COMMENT: A partisan website? All websites are "partisan" by definition, no? We normally reserve the word for something more blatant. Just who or what is the Washington Policy Center "partisan" on behalf of? They are stalking horses for who? Regardless of what the answer is (I really don't care if they're a front for insurance companies, if they argue well), it's too bad you didn't read the article referenced, because it's a good one, writen by two authors who know the issues. I can't resist quoting a choice bit or two: QUOTE "In a normal market, people make quality tradeoffs, sometimes substituting less quality for lower costs or greater convenience. That is what is known as the quest for "value." However, when people are insulated from the cost of health care because the government, insurance company or an employer is paying the bill, the role of value declines. Patients want quality at any price - because someone else is paying that price. Ironically, when someone else is paying the bill, the insistence upon quality declines because patients - indeed, any type of consumer - are willing to tolerate bad outcomes and poorer service when they are free." COMMENT: To which I add "amen." Another bit: QUOTE "The irony is that while single-payer proponents point to Canada as a model health care system, the only reason the system doesn't implode is the U.S. health care system provides Canada with a safety valve - access to care Canadians cannot get in Canada." COMMENT: A point I've made here. 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border, and since the average Canadian income is the same as the US, a very great number of middle-class Candians simply pay out of pocket by going to the US, when they have to. And what about the once who can't? Well, I can't resist this, a couple of many hair-raising fun stories about the Canadian medical system: QUOTE "Stories abound of Canadians going to extreme measures in order to gain access to medical technology. For example, several years ago an enterprising hospital in Guelph, Ontario, decided to allow animals needing CT scans to enter the hospital in the middle of the night - charging pet owners C$300 apiece. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that except that thousands of people in Ontario were waiting up to three months for an appointment on the same machine. "I'd go any time," said Greg Moulton, who was in the middle of a two-month wait to learn why he was having "excruciating" headaches. Because people are not allowed to pay out of pocket for medical procedures covered under the government-run plan, they have to wait. If you are a dog, you can get medical technology immediately. When dogs get better treatment than people, then people will become dogs. In December 1999, The Washington Post reported that waiting lines for MRIs in Ontario had grown so long that one Ontario resident "booked himself into a private veterinary clinic that happened to have one of the machines, listing himself as 'Fido.'" COMMENT: I hope that gave you a grin. I'll let you all read the rest. Again, it's at: http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/HealthCare/PBMatthewsCihakHealthCareQuality.html Stevie's kicked back for a Friday afternoon. Slipped his shoes off, uncapped a Coors, a cheese sanny, and thinks we've all taken leave of our senses. My my but did we burn all our indignity over the yellow journalism up thread? Eh? > > The care denied cases in Canada are far and few between compared to the > > situation in the USA which creates so many personal bankruptcies over medical [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/HealthCare/PBMatthewsCihakHealthCareQuality.html > Stevie's kicked back for a Friday afternoon. Slipped his shoes off, > uncapped a Coors, a cheese sanny, and thinks we've all taken leave of > our senses. My my but did we burn all our indignity over the yellow > journalism up thread? Eh? COMMENT: Which this isn't. This is opinion piece on a Washington thinktank website seeking to influence policy, written by a health policy analyst with a Ph.D. in philosophy, and a physician with a medical degree from Harvard. It is labeled as what it is. It is not from a "newspaper". It is not written by "journalists". It is not being spun as, or is in any way pretending to be, news. Therefore, it is not yellow journalism. Wondering if you can tell the difference. SBH > > The care denied cases in Canada are far and few between compared to the > > situation in the USA which creates so many personal bankruptcies over medical [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is the Washington Policy Center "partisan" on behalf of? They are > stalking horses for who? I love it... Mr. Science Guy falling for rent-a-quote patients (Harper's brother-in-law) and opinion (that's the opposite of data Stevie remember?) that's 7 years old; from the American equivalent to the Canadian somewhere-right-of-Chile Fraser Institute.{In fact this farce of a website linkis off the Fraser site). > Regardless of what the answer is (I really don't care if they're a > front for insurance companies, if they argue well), it's too bad you > didn't read the article referenced, because it's a good one, writen by > two authors who know the issues. And this informed judgement of yours is based on your knowledge of Canada from? ... your last 2 week vacation in Gastown? I can't resist quoting a choice bit or > two: > > QUOTE > "In a normal market, people make quality tradeoffs, sometimes > substituting less quality for lower costs or greater convenience. And sometimes, they think everyone has a right to basic health care, and that if a person is provided that there's a better chance he can work, educate his children, contribute to the gross national product and in all likelihood cost the taxpayer less. That's how we have libraries, airports, schools... Roads even though we may not use them to drive wherever they go. In a democracy we pay for them. (How far out of your way do you go to avoid a toll road Stevie?) > is what is known as the quest for "value." However, when people are > insulated from the cost of health care because the government, > insurance company or an employer is paying the bill, the role of value > declines. Yeah. Like I don't value my health and think it's my responsibility. Tell me again; which country is it where the citizenry can sue a physician because he didn't pony up? Patients want quality at any price - because someone else is > paying that price. Ahhh. The American Way. Ironically, when someone else is paying the bill, > the insistence upon quality declines because patients - indeed, any > type of consumer - are willing to tolerate bad outcomes and poorer > service when they are free." Hogwash. And as someone else already pointed out and you took the non-toll detour to avoid; Canadians are rated higher by WHO. > COMMENT: > To which I add "amen." Another bit: > QUOTE > "The irony is that while single-payer proponents point to Canada as a > model health care system, the only reason the system doesn't implode is > the U.S. health care system provides Canada with a safety valve - > access to care Canadians cannot get in Canada." And thank God for small mercies. Have you seen the court dockets for the Americans who got the kind of care Canadians cannot get in Canada? EH? > COMMENT: > > A point I've made here. 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the > US border, and since the average Canadian income is the same as the US, But we pay 3 to 5 times more for our Harry Potter books, and OUR gasoline, et al, so you can have yours dirt cheap. Pass the bananas Henny? > a very great number Exactly what number would that be Mr. Science Guy? of middle-class Candians simply pay out of pocket > by going to the US, when they have to. And what about the once who > can't? Well, I can't resist this, a couple of many hair-raising fun > stories about the Canadian medical system: I'd have about as much respect for you quoting the Saturday comic section here as this. > QUOTE > "Stories abound of Canadians going to extreme measures in order to gain [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with that except that thousands of people in Ontario were waiting up to > three months for an appointment on the same machine. Can we have a cite for this urban legend? Make it good oh thou summoner of Tennyson and other flowery whimsey. > "I'd go any time," said Greg Moulton, who was in the middle of a > two-month wait to learn why he was having "excruciating" headaches. > Because people are not allowed to pay out of pocket for medical > procedures covered under the government-run plan, they have to wait. If > you are a dog, you can get medical technology immediately. > When dogs get better treatment than people, Well SOME dogs eh Stevie? Now do American dogs get this kind of care? How about Beagles? Do they get this kind of care, or are we only talking about Afghan Hounds and other aristocratic breeds (not likely to be research animals)? Howcome this earn your way kinda thinking doesn't work for Beagles? then people will become > dogs. In December 1999, The Washington Post reported that waiting lines > for MRIs in Ontario had grown so long that one Ontario resident "booked > himself into a private veterinary clinic that happened to have one of > the machines, listing himself as 'Fido.'" Gee. I wonder if this is the same Mr. Moulton who is Mr. Harper's brother-in-law. Naw! Couldn't be... Dr. Harris is a man of science. He wouldn't fall for all that merde. > COMMENT: > > I hope that gave you a grin. I'll let you all read the rest. Again, > it's at: Oh it does. But not for the reason you think. > http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/HealthCare/PBMatthewsCihakHealthCareQuality.html horses for who? > I love it... Mr. Science Guy falling for rent-a-quote patients > (Harper's brother-in-law) and opinion (that's the opposite of data > Stevie remember?) that's 7 years old; from the American equivalent to > the Canadian somewhere-right-of-Chile Fraser Institute.{In fact this > farce of a website link is off the Fraser site). COMMENT: Oh, goodness, what are they doing in Canada, then? Trying to get exile for Pinochet? http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/ Oh, read the article already. It gives many statistics, but I didn't re-post them because they're not as entertaining as the stories. But you're welcome to tell us which ones you don't agree with. http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/HealthCare/PBMatthewsCihakHealthCareQuality.html And BTW, I'm suprised there even existed a CT scanner for dogs in Canada, no matter what breed. I would have thought a PET scanner. In fact, if Trudeau had had a favorite vet imagine machine, you'd actually have have had a chance to have a PET pet PET pet scanner. But you blew it. SBH > And BTW, I'm suprised there even existed a CT scanner for dogs in > Canada, no matter what breed. I would have thought a PET scanner. In > fact, if Trudeau had had a favorite vet imagine machine, you'd actually > have have had a chance to have a PET pet PET pet scanner. But you blew > it. Add the French fart pun and you can go for five.... SBH > > And BTW, I'm suprised there even existed a CT scanner for dogs in > > Canada, no matter what breed. I would have thought a PET scanner. In [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > SBH Now I'm REALLY impressed. You know that one? Wow... . > > > And BTW, I'm suprised there even existed a CT scanner for dogs in > > > Canada, no matter what breed. I would have thought a PET scanner. In [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Now I'm REALLY impressed. You know that one? Wow... . Hey, it's Jean-Luc Petard to us Trek TNG satirists. Same root. Bombs go "POP" when you're hoist by them. Much like the economy when use those fancy scanners for low back pain. SBH > > a very great number > > Exactly what number would that be Mr. Science Guy? Oh, a phone survey done by a group of Canandian physicians who are anti-change and in support of the present system, estimated roughly 30,000 Canadians or so travel to the US for the purpose of obtaining health care, every year. Whether this is very great or very small depends on how you look at it. These guys thought that 1 person per 1000 per year was "small." I think 30,000 ill and obviously somewhat desperate Canadians is "large." Furthermore, that's not the entire point. Considering the barriers of economics and bother for an ill person, I have no doubt that a large multiple more Canadians want to do this, than actually manage to do it. Also, the fact that it's possible to do it, means something, even for those who don't ultimately do it. An escape hatch is comforting, even if never employed. If we in the US were to go so far as a Canadian system, outlawing private competition, where would OUR escape hatch be? We'd have to got to the vet. But nevermind. The Canadians themselves won't continue to outlaw private medical care forever. The Soviet block lasted a long time, but finally quit. Too much stuff available on TV they couldn't have. SBH > > > a very great number > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 1000 per year was "small." I think 30,000 ill and obviously somewhat > desperate Canadians is "large." May I have some ACTUAL INFORMATION that would lead me to this? Like...a link? > Furthermore, that's not the entire point. Considering the barriers of > economics and bother for an ill person, You're making an assumption again Mr. Research Guy. Not everyone was ill I betcha. I have no doubt that a large > multiple more Canadians want to do this, Well sure. Some people want to go on a cruise in February. They always do you see. And why should it be different this year just because the surgeon has booked their hernia for February? So they get on the blower and call their cousin in Mn and cash in something so they can afford McCollister and still eat the way they always do on the cruise. I'd go to him too (from what I know) if I could afford him, and I was American. But I don't and I'm not I'm not going to have a hissy fit and demand the whole healthcare system be changed to suit me after I didn't do anything my gp told me to do for 50 years. than actually manage to do it. > Also, the fact that it's possible to do it, means something, even for > those who don't ultimately do it. An escape hatch is comforting, even > if never employed. If we in the US were to go so far as a Canadian > system, outlawing private competition, where would OUR escape hatch be? > We'd have to got to the vet. It's my understanding there's a steady stream of Americans here, to my city's university hospital for a couple procedures (one having something to do with diabetes.) And that's only one hospital. Needs must. And their insurance pays for it. Same here for a lifesaving procedure there. But that's not (oh I am sorry to have to use this) just becasue you WANT it. ~~~~~~~~~~~ For an issue (and interlocutors) that might challenge you try the softwood lumber dispute between Canada and the U.S. Bone up on NAFTA. Background on these websites. For ambience, you'll need to read David Adams Richards. http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/eicb/softwood/menu-en.asp http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/softwood_lumber/ http://groups.google.ca/group/can.politics/msg/0aada3f80fae212a?dmode=source&hl=en > But nevermind. The Canadians themselves won't continue to outlaw > private medical care forever. I've read lefty docs arguing for it for some procedures. It's inevitable in my province, *and* it will hurt a certain segment of the population which probably includes seniors, single mothers, hourly wage earners, people with chronic illnesses.... Like private health insurance which seems a good idea when you're well and don't need it; private health care seems a good idea when you have disposable income, but have forgotten you're daughter with three children won't when that irresponsible so-and-so leaves her. Or whatever. The Soviet block lasted a long time, but > finally quit. Too much stuff available on TV they couldn't have. Spurious argument. You don't even have a tv. Presumably because you don't want one. Presumably because you find it boring pap. Zed www.ckua.ca "Northwest Passage" Stan Rogers > > > > a very great number > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > May I have some ACTUAL INFORMATION that would lead me to this? Like...a > link? http://www.pnhp.org/about/board_of_directors.php COMMENT: Wups, not Canadian physicans (my error), but Americans wanting something like the Canadian system. This is actually a survey done by a bunch of American physicians arguing for a single payor socialized US health program. Sort of the worst of both worlds, cause then everything will be like Medicare. I wonder how many of the doctors in this organization actually try (or have tried) to make a living by seeing only US medicare patients? With no academic backup support? I think I'll give them a call and say some dirty truths (from experience) to them, cause I can tell you they're all living in la-la land. Damn, I wish they'd all emigrate up North, which would help your shortage of physicians, give them what they say they want, be educational, get them out of our hair, and then presumably everybody would be happier than a moose in a marsh. SBH > > > a very great number > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > SBH Bound to happen as even the UK who started it all changed it eventually. Did you ever stop to think that the quacks may be as much a part of theproblem as the solution? > > > a very great number > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > SBH > > QUOTE > > "Stories abound of Canadians going to extreme measures in order to gain [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Can we have a cite for this urban legend? Make it good oh thou summoner > of Tennyson and other flowery whimsey. COMMENT: The cite I have is Canadian Press "Humans Wait in Pain, Dogs Don't," June 14, 1991. But you're better at looking up such things than I am. It is the Canadian Press, you know, and might be yellow journalism. SBH R you know f.ck all about f.ck all from the sound of it. but that's typical. People in need of immediate care get it. > > USA healthcare is more expensive on a per capita basis and > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > one solution to the problem of waiting lines. The government health care > program, known as medicare, would reimburse the clinics for the care. " http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/HealthCare/PBMatthewsCihakHealthCareQuality. html > R you know f.ck all about f.ck all from the sound of it. but that's typical. > People in need of immediate care get it. And it's cheap remember while you wait. Real cheap. I've never had to wait for service when I needed it urgently. Whats your hurry you've obviously lived with your head full of sh.t for a long time whats a few more years? > > R you know f.ck all about f.ck all from the sound of it. but that's > typical. > > People in need of immediate care get it. > > And it's cheap remember while you wait. Real cheap. > I've never had to wait for service when I needed it urgently. Whats your > hurry you've obviously lived with your head full of sh.t for a long time > whats a few more years? Sorry, I thought you wanted people to take responsibility for themselves instead of relying on the government. Hope you enjoy your government program while it lasts. With any luck I'll enjoy yours too. You dense c.nt, don't you realize we are the government? WE pay the taxes, we die for our country > > I've never had to wait for service when I needed it urgently. Whats your > > hurry you've obviously lived with your head full of sh.t for a long time [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > instead of relying on the government. > Hope you enjoy your government program while it lasts. > I've never had to wait for service when I needed it urgently. What about the poor people who have wait years for hip or knee replacements? Remember that you only have one life to live and you should be able to live it to the fullest without dreadfull agony for years while waiting for the canadian health system. Whats your > hurry you've obviously lived with your head full of sh.t for a long time > whats a few more years? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > And it's cheap remember while you wait. Real cheap. > > I've never had to wait for service when I needed it urgently. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for the > canadian health system. That's true as pain does not register based on necessity. There is no "US system". There is differing systems based on economics. The poor in the US also live in pain and have to wait for the government to provide the knee replacement surgery. The low GNP that Canada saved is transfered out of healthcare by definition and so that is why people wait or are denied services as a nation. It will never have enough resources, diagnostic equipment and hospital facilities because the government and the people think that it is good to keep the GNP below what the US spends in healthcare. Catch 22. So they do studies on how long a person can be denied heart surgery etc or on the bottom line dollar amount. They have turned into what they hated about private healthcare and that being money as the bottom line. Anything to keep it cheap is good. Life's a bitch ain't it? Do you think you get instant hip replacements in the USA unless you have the $$? Anyone can cross the border (unless you are a criminal or terrorist) and pay for a new hip. I hear you can go to India and get a month in a 5 star hotel, a new kidney and all the trimmings for $20k US, about the price of a new car. Have a nice trip. > > I've never had to wait for service when I needed it urgently. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > > > > > And it's cheap remember while you wait. Real cheap. > Life's a bitch ain't it? Do you think you get instant hip replacements in > the USA unless you have the $$? A Canadian should have the choice of whether he wants to wait for the slow public system or be allowed to pay for a speedier procedure without being forced to leave the country. Anyone can cross the border (unless you are > a criminal or terrorist) and pay for a new hip. I hear you can go to India > and get a month in a 5 star hotel, a new kidney and all the trimmings for [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > > > > > > And it's cheap remember while you wait. Real cheap. You know what I agree with you But I also want to have a wide open medical system where doctors compete for patients. The current system is a monopoly where the suppliers set the price AND control the supply. There is no reason medical schools and hospitals can't be privately financed and anyone who can qualify and find the money to pay the fees can get a license to practice medicine. > > Life's a bitch ain't it? Do you think you get instant hip replacements in > > the USA unless you have the $$? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > > > > > > > > And it's cheap remember while you wait. Real cheap. > > Life's a bitch ain't it? Do you think you get instant hip replacements in > > the USA unless you have the $$? > > A Canadian should have the choice of whether he wants to wait for the > slow public system or be allowed to pay for a speedier procedure > without being forced to leave the country. Yes. I qualify for this offer you're making. I'm Canadian, and I want the choice of the speedier procedure without leaving the country. Please give me your address so I can have them bill you for my upcoming surgery. What do you mean you're not paying my bill? I thought you just said Canadians should have the choice of the slow public system or t....!? OH~~ You meant the choice of the public system for me, and the private system for you. Whynt ya say so in the first place.. > Anyone can cross the border (unless you are > > a criminal or terrorist) and pay for a new hip. I hear you can go to India [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > > > > > > > > > And it's cheap remember while you wait. Real cheap. You can! Hire a personal doctor and rent a private hospital. But if you want to avail the public services, then you play by the rules that the users have set up. None of your rights are being denied, but to make law that you can force your ugly greed on the general population is and will continue to be resisted ----- firmly. >>Life's a bitch ain't it? Do you think you get instant hip replacements in >>the USA unless you have the $$? [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >>>>> >>>>>And it's cheap remember while you wait. Real cheap. > You can! > Hire a personal doctor and rent a private hospital. > But if you want to avail the public services, then you play by the rules > that the users have set up. It's against the law for a Canadian to pay for services provided free of charge by the goverment. > None of your rights are being denied, Yes they are as the Supreme Court ruled. You guys must really hate the Supreme Court who looked at the evidence and the facts of the case. but to make law that you can force > your ugly greed on the general population is and will continue to be > resisted ----- firmly. Are you calling the Canadian Supreme Court greedy? You need to change the constitution and that would allow you to deny services for as long as you like. > >>Life's a bitch ain't it? Do you think you get instant hip replacements in > >>the USA unless you have the $$? [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > >>>>> > >>>>>And it's cheap remember while you wait. Real cheap. Perhaps but you can always leave the country Besides it |
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