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Medical Forum / General / General / October 2005

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Doctors blast rabbis performing fellatio on babies

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nyc - 15 Oct 2005 01:28 GMT
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539

City Risking Babies' Lives With Brit Policy: Health Experts

Renowned authorities, one at Bloomberg-named medical school, blast
mayor’s administration over controversial circumcision practice.

Debra Nussbaum Cohen - Staff Writer

A renowned expert on sexually transmitted disease denounced as
“outrageous” this week the Bloomberg administration’s failure to ban
New York City mohels from suctioning blood with their mouths from a
baby’s penis in the circumcision rite.

“[It] is a major public health hazard,” declared Dr. Jonathan
Zenilman, a professor of epidemiology at the Bloomberg School of
Public Health — the Johns Hopkins University education and research
center named for New York’s philanthropist mayor, its biggest
financial supporter.

Zenilman, who grew up in an Orthodox family in Woodmere, L.I., warned
that allowing the practice known as metzitzah b’peh “is actually
crazy” due to the potentially fatal danger of transmitting herpes to
vulnerable newborns.

A prominent colleague, Dr. John Santelli, chair of the Department of
Population and Family Health at Columbia University’s Mailman School
of Public Health, joined the criticism.

“Those kids are at very high risk of death and encephalitis,” he said,
explaining, “If you cut the skin — as obviously you have to in a
circumcision — it increases risk of transmission to the infant.
Newborns just don’t have great immune systems, so the worst time to
get a case of herpes is in the newborn.”

Metzitzah b’peh, which is practiced routinely by some fervently
Orthodox mohels, has been at the center of a case involving Rabbi
Yitzchok Fischer, a Monsey-based mohel suspected of having infected
three babies with herpes. One of the baby boys died last October.

But the city Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, which began
investigating the suspected link of the infections to Rabbi Fischer,
agreed not to ban the practice after vigorous lobbying by New York’s
fervently Orthodox community, including of Bloomberg. In his
re-election campaign, Bloomberg’s TV commercials tout him as a
champion of public health.

On Sept. 15 the city withdrew the lawsuit it had filed against Rabbi
Fischer and the court order banning him from using the technique, and
turned the case over to an Orthodox rabbinical court, or bet din, in
Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Rabbi Fischer agreed to stop using the
technique pending the bet din’s resolution of the case.

This appears to be the first time the city has turned the adjudication
of a public health issue over to a religious body.

Zenilman and Santelli said the narrow focus on Rabbi Fischer is
misplaced. They said because Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1 is a very
common disease — studies cited by the Health Department in its legal
briefs say that 65 percent of Americans have contracted it by age 12 —
the potential impact on public health goes far beyond concern over one
mohel.

“From a public health standpoint, at the least there should have been
a consent decree that this practice would not continue in this
community,” said Zenilman, who also heads the Johns Hopkins Center for
Reproductive Tract Infections and is president of the American STD
(Sexually Transmitted Diseases) Association. “It is within the scope
of a public health authority to ban it, and I find it outrageous that
it hasn’t been.”

Santelli, who is also a pediatrician, stressed, “This is a public
health problem. It’s certainly a dangerous practice from a medical
point of view.”

Indeed, legal documents filed in connection with the case by the
director of the Health Department’s Bureau of Sexually Transmitted
Diseases, state that Herpes Type 1, which generally causes just fever
blisters and cold sores in healthy older children and adults, is fatal
as much as 30 percent of the time in newborns.

Dr. Susan Blank, the bureau’s director, turned down an interview
request from The Jewish Week. Requests for access to the results of
the Health Department’s investigation of Rabbi Fischer have gone
unanswered.

Rabbi David Zwiebel, executive vice president of Agudath Israel, an
umbrella body of ultra-traditional Orthodox groups, has said metzitzah
b’peh is probably performed more than 2,000 times a year in New York
City. Many additional instances occur in other areas with substantial
populations of ultra-traditional Jews, such as Rockland County.

The New York Times reported in August that Rabbi Fischer had done some
12,000 circumcisions.

Parts of the Orthodox community and Rabbi Fischer’s attorney frame the
issue as one of religious practice that should be free from government
interference. They question claims that it spreads herpes.

Mohels use antiseptic mouthwash before performing oral suction, they
say, and the known incidence of herpes among infants who have
undergone it is minuscule.

According to the Times, the city’s Health Department recorded cases in
1988 and 1998, though doctors in New York, as in most states, are not
required to report neonatal herpes.

Prominent members of the large Satmar chasidic community, based in
Brooklyn and Rockland County, including Rabbi David Niederman, a
spokesman for the rabbinical court handling the case, have told The
Jewish Week the community will continue the practice. A delegation of
chasidic leaders lobbied Bloomberg on the issue in August. Their bloc
vote is sought after by mayoral candidates.

“We’re going to do a study and make sure that everybody is safe, and
at the same time it is not the government’s business to tell people
how to practice their religion,” Bloomberg said on a radio program one
day later.

Health Commissioner Thomas Frieden told the Times the city did not
intend to ban or regulate the practice, partly because any such an
attempt would be virtually unenforceable. Circumcision generally takes
place in private homes.

Not all ultra-traditional groups mandate the practice, and the Modern
Orthodox-oriented Rabbinical Council of America recommends using a
sterile tube and gloves to avoid direct oral-genital contact.

The criticisms by Zenilman and Santelli come in the wake of a paper in
the medical journal Pediatrics last year that studied eight cases of
baby boys in Israel who developed herpes after their circumcision,
“most probably as a consequence of transmission by the mohel’s
saliva,” it stated.

“Oral metzitzah after ritual circumcision may be hazardous to the
neonate” because it “carries a serious risk for transmission” of the
herpes simplex virus, the paper concluded.

Asked its reaction to the experts’ warning this week, the Health
Department reissued a statement it released last month:

“Our goal was for Rabbi Fischer to discontinue practicing metzitzah
b’peh,” a spokesman said. “He has now agreed to do so. It has always
been our preference for the religious community to regulate itself as
long as the public’s health was protected.”

While cases of herpes transmission from mohel to baby are rare, they
are documented going back as far as an 1811 medical book that detailed
an outbreak in Krakow’s Jewish quarter.

Metzitzah b’peh was abandoned by all but fervently Orthodox mohels in
the 1950s, when diseases including herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea were
shown to be transmitted from mohel to baby.

As with Herpes Type 2 — the kind that results in genital blisters in
adults — there is no cure for Type 1, only treatment for outbreaks.
The virus can be passed from one person to another even when there are
no symptoms, say medical experts.

“It’s often an asymptomatic disease,” Santelli said.

According to Zenilman, “People shed the virus occasionally even
without the presence of lesions,” and any immune system suppression,
including cancer and HIV-AIDS, can prompt shedding. Even taking
inhaled steroids for asthma can prompt someone to unknowingly shed the
Herpes 1 virus.

An actual outbreak of lesions can be prompted by trauma to the mouth,
like having a dental cleaning, by having a fever for any reason, or
being congested, or by exposure to the sun.

“It’s an everyday occurrence,” Zenilman said. “Although an individual
can look absolutely healthy and have no illness, they can be shedding
virus.”

Transmitting the virus, he said, requires genital-genital contact,
oral-genital contact or other direct transmission across mucous
membranes, like contact between a herpes blister on someone’s finger
and someone else’s mouth.

Rabbi Fischer’s attorney, Mark Kurzmann, has said the infection of the
three baby boys — including twins from Brooklyn — which became evident
shortly after Rabbi Fischer circumcised them is “nothing more than a
tragic coincidence.”

The twins were circumcised on Oct. 16, 2004, and admitted to
Maimonides Medical Center eight days later with fever and lesions in
the genital area, according to court documents. Two days after that,
one of the twins died of liver failure as a result of Type 1 Herpes
Simplex Virus.

At about that time, the Health Department became aware of another
baby, on Staten Island, who developed signs of herpes infection a week
and a half after Rabbi Fischer circumcised him using metzitzah b’peh.
That baby was hospitalized for three weeks and recovered after
antiviral treatment.

Kurzmann said he had no comment in response to the statements by
Zenilman and Santelli.

In a September interview, Kurzmann said “it appears more likely than
not that the babies contracted the herpes from someone prior to the
bris, or a person other than Rabbi Fischer after the bris.”

That, said Zenilman, is nearly impossible because of when and where on
the boys the herpes lesions appeared.

If it had passed from mother to baby during birth, he said, it would
have required that the mothers in question had active herpes lesions
in the birth canal. The newborns, in turn, would have had sores all
over their bodies, not just in their genital areas.

Alternatively, Zenilman said, a mother-passed infection would have
caused an encephalitis-like disease, and the baby also would have
shown evidence of the disease in his first week of life, before the
brit.

It is also highly unlikely another nurse in the hospital or caregiver
caused the infection, he said, as that would have required the nurse
to spit on the baby’s penis or have direct mouth-to-genital contact
that could have infected all three babies.
Michael Gray - 15 Oct 2005 02:49 GMT
>http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539
>
>City Risking Babies' Lives With Brit Policy: Health Experts
>
>Renowned authorities, one at Bloomberg-named medical school, blast
>mayor’s administration over controversial circumcision practice.

I think a lot of Poms are going to be a trifle upset about the
confusion between "Brit" and "Bris".
øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton - 15 Oct 2005 03:34 GMT
I just knew those dirty Brits were up to something!

*smirk*

: >http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539
: >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: I think a lot of Poms are going to be a trifle upset about the
: confusion between "Brit" and "Bris".
Barry - 15 Oct 2005 08:55 GMT
It's not just for the super religious. My cousin had a mohel like that.
I saw it from outside a packed room and I'd never heard of that
technique, and for years I wasn't sure if I saw right. Everyone laughed
when it happened. I suspect more religious jews would know about that
technique and not laugh.

"...doctors in New York, as in most states, are not required to report
neonatal herpes"

That should change.
Twittering One - 15 Oct 2005 09:04 GMT
A swift return ...
slim - 16 Oct 2005 23:21 GMT
> It's not just for the super religious. My cousin had a mohel like that.
> I saw it from outside a packed room and I'd never heard of that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> That should change.

There should be no COCKSUCKING OF INFANTS.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

Freedom Fighter - 15 Oct 2005 21:35 GMT
Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia.
Sick, sick, sick!

Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the very
BANE OF HUMANITY!
flaviaR@verizon.net - 16 Oct 2005 08:02 GMT
> Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia.

Interesting how this bigot snipped then entire post to which he
was replying - could it have anything to do with the fact that the
article in question doesn't say what Jew-haters pretend it does?

> Sick, sick, sick!

& you could get help, too.

> Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the very
> BANE OF HUMANITY!

Nah, the eternal enemy is irrantional bigotry, as practiced by anonymous
cowards such as "Freedom Fighter". Of course, firemen fight fires - so I
can see where's he's a freedom fighter.

Susan
Mimi Cohen - 16 Oct 2005 19:04 GMT
>>Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> & you could get help, too.

But the treatment would last years to dig out that sickness :)

>>Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the very
>>BANE OF HUMANITY!
>
> Nah, the eternal enemy is irrantional bigotry, as practiced by anonymous
> cowards such as "Freedom Fighter". Of course, firemen fight fires - so I
> can see where's he's a freedom fighter.

Good point

> Susan
Freedom Fighter - 17 Oct 2005 01:06 GMT
>> Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia.
>
> Interesting how this bigot snipped then entire post to which he
> was replying - could it have anything to do with the fact that the
> article in question doesn't say what Jew-haters pretend it does?

"Bigot?" Your intolerance of my opinion is where the bigotry lies!
I snipped the text for the brevity of the response and the ease of reading
it.

>> Sick, sick, sick!
>
> & you could get help, too.

Ad-hominem attack is the refuge of unintelligent and immature people that
can't refute an opinion with logic or facts, so they resort to childishly
attacking the person that holds the opinion.

>> Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the very
>> BANE OF HUMANITY!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan
-----------
Cowardly people do not dare to attack the bane of humanity, the ignorant
superstitions known as religion, as there are no more hateful and vindictive
people in the world than the blind adherents to those irrational fables! And
your response to my statements here is the perfect proof of this fact.
Oversensitive, aren't you? I criticize this cruel and perverse practice, and
that automatically makes me a "Jew-hater."

Slicing off the penis tip of a newborn without anesthesia, then sucking the
blood from wounded penis, is the HEIGHT of perverse cruelty, no matter whose
crazy, antiquated beliefs dictate that it be done.
flaviaR@verizon.net - 17 Oct 2005 11:42 GMT
> >> Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> "Bigot?" Your intolerance of my opinion is where the bigotry lies!

Oh, I love it1
My hatred of his bigtry makes me a bigot!
ROTFLOL!!

> I snipped the text for the brevity of the response and the ease of reading

Yeah, right - it just HAPPENED that it also cut out everything

> it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> can't refute an opinion with logic or facts, so they resort to childishly
> attacking the person that holds the opinion.

& thank you for admitting it since **YOU**
a) were the pne who called *us* sick
b) had NO facts to bask it up
c) tried calling e a bigot for callling you on your obvious bigotry.

> >> Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the
> >> very
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> vindictive
> people in the world than the blind adherents to those irrational fables!

You are a coward because you not only hide your actual identity, but you
have only lies to tell about what you like to pretend is the "bane of
humanity".
The fact that you have to tell such incredible lies shows that you obviously
know that you have ONLY your own irrational hatred of religion to go on.
You told lies in the header, you snipped the only "proof" you brought
because you know it doesn't bolster that lie, and when called on your lies,
you throw out grandiose ad hominem (such as "bane of humanity")
to hide all that you have tried to do. The only ignorant, hateful &
vindictive
loser here is yourself, proven by your own actions.

> And
> your response to my statements here is the perfect proof of this fact.

OInly in your wishful thinking.
You told lies, I pointed out that they are lies; you even snipped the proof
thatthey were lies & you tried ducking that fact - this doesn't resemble
anything you've outlined. Then again, I am a literate, truthful adult -
rather
the opposite of yourself.

> Oversensitive, aren't you?

Again that would be you.
Look at the hysteria with which you answered my posts.

> I criticize this cruel and perverse practice,

Or, ratherm you lie about it being cruwl & poerverse, & you lie outrageously
in the header....

> and
> that automatically makes me a "Jew-hater."

Anyone who lies like you specifically about Jews could not escape being
labelled such.
Live with it, or examine your prejudices & rid yourself of them.

> Slicing off the penis tip of a newborn without anesthesia,

A lie, of course.
You've never been to a bris, have you?
I would suggest you do some more research, but you have shown yourself to be

resistant to them (such as in the article url you snipped because it didn't
bolster
the lies you wetre trying to tell).

then sucking
> the
> blood from wounded penis,

Getting the blood out of a wound to keep it from scabbing & scarring?
Just what do you think doctors do during surgery?
They simply use big instruments because the wound - and the amount of blood
-
are greatly magnified.
I know your type - were we to start using surgical instruments to do this,
you would
pretend they were the modern equivalent of medieaval torture devices - and
the only
shred of proof you would have would be thatthe pressure was too great for a
baby's
penis - hence the mouth tube almost universally used.
You are a classic bigot; not even doing what you would want us to do would
satisfy
you.

> is the HEIGHT of perverse cruelty,

Hardly.
Tho' I can see why you are desperate to portray it as such.

no matter
> whose
> crazy, antiquated beliefs

As opposed to irrational hateful beliefs like yous

Susan

dictate that it be done.
slim - 17 Oct 2005 15:38 GMT
> then sucking
> > the
> > blood from wounded penis,
>
> Getting the blood out of a wound to keep it from scabbing & scarring?
> Just what do you think doctors do during surgery?

DOCTORS  NEVER PUT THIER MOUTHS ON OPEN WOUNDS,
MUCH LESS BLEEDING PENISES.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

Mimi Cohen - 17 Oct 2005 16:12 GMT
>>>>Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>>"Bigot?" Your intolerance of my opinion is where the bigotry lies!

IKYABWAI noted

> Oh, I love it1
> My hatred of his bigtry makes me a bigot!
> ROTFLOL!!

:)
Freedom Fighter - 17 Oct 2005 23:19 GMT
Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read
what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous
responses to my opinions, and make up their own minds.
slim - 18 Oct 2005 00:11 GMT
> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read
> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous
> responses to my opinions, and make up their own minds.

And no matter how much they wail, their own media posted the lurid
details of grown men sucking multilated infants penises.

Oy Vay!!!!!

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

Phil - 18 Oct 2005 01:55 GMT
>> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read
>> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Oy Vay!!!!!

Alright, Mike!  We get it!

You hate Jews!

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 18 Oct 2005 04:56 GMT
> >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read
> >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> You hate Jews!

Noooooooo.....I HATE PEOPLE WHO MULTILATE INNOCENT KIDS!

THERE IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER FOR THIS CRAP.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

Phil - 18 Oct 2005 13:28 GMT
>> >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read
>> >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Noooooooo.....I HATE PEOPLE WHO MULTILATE INNOCENT KIDS!

That's not the reason.

>THERE IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER FOR THIS CRAP.

It's difficult to just 'drop' thousands of years of tradition.

Kind of like you can't stop lying.

Phil

======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 19 Oct 2005 04:42 GMT
> >> >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read
> >> >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> That's not the reason.

Yes it is.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

Phil - 19 Oct 2005 12:41 GMT
>> >> >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read
>> >> >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Yes it is.

What about all the aid we send them?  You've ranted about that for
quite a while.

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 19 Oct 2005 15:02 GMT
> >> >> >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read
> >> >> >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> What about all the aid we send them?  You've ranted about that for
> quite a while.

Yes, Israel is the biggest recipient of Welfare in the form of our tax dollars.

We keep them alfloat and they spy on us and have a record number of
UN sanctions against them for human rights violations.

Israel is a religious State with fascist ideology.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

Mimi Cohen - 19 Oct 2005 17:02 GMT
> Yes, Israel is the biggest recipient of Welfare in the form of our tax dollars.
>
> We keep them alfloat and they spy on us and have a record number of
> UN sanctions against them for human rights violations.
>
> Israel is a religious State with fascist ideology.

That's got to be a record at least 5 lies in 3 sentences.
slim - 19 Oct 2005 17:14 GMT
> > Yes, Israel is the biggest recipient of Welfare in the form of our tax dollars.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> That's got to be a record at least 5 lies in 3 sentences.

"Its a lie" - #1 Jewish excuse

WELFARE

Israel receieves more aid (TAX DOLLARS) than any other nation

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact

Summary
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630    Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

Special Reports:

*   

Congress Watch: A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91
Billion—and Counting

*   

Congressional Research Report on Israel: US Foreign Assistance by Clyde
Mark (213K pdf file)

*   

U.S. Aid To Israel: The Strategic Functions

*   

U.S. Aid to Israel: What U.S. Taxpayer Should Know

*   

U.S. Aid to Israel: Interpreting the 'Strategic Relationship'

*   

The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers: True Lies About U.S. Aid to Israel

THE STRATEGIC FUNCTIONS OF U.S. AID TO ISRAEL

By Stephen Zunes

Dr. Zunes is an assistant professor in the Department of Politics at the
University of San Francisco

Since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion
annually in loan guarantees. Congressional researchers have disclosed
that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were
converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the
beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been
forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted
claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan. U.S.
policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal
or exceed Israel's annual debt repayment to the United States. Unlike
other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to
Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the
fiscal year, leaving the U.S. government to borrow from future revenues.
Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills
and collects the additional interest.

In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds
that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private
tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds. The ability
of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a
foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities,
does not exist with any other country. Nor do these figures include
short- and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been
as high as $1 billion annually in recent years.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American
foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of
the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per
capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of
Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita
income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest
country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than
oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most
Western European countries.

AID does not term economic aid to Israel as development assistance, but
instead uses the term "economic support funding." Given Israel's
relative prosperity, U.S. aid to Israel is becoming increasingly
controversial. In 1994, Yossi Beilen, deputy foreign minister of Israel
and a Knesset member, told the Women's International Zionist
organization, "If our economic situation is better than in many of your
countries, how can we go on asking for your charity?"

UN SANCTIONS

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/neff-un.html

Lessons to be Learned From 66 U.N. Resolutions Israel Ignores

By Donald Neff
Former Time Magazine Bureau Chief, Israel
Fifty Years of Israel
Originally printed in the Washington Report in March 1993
Donald Neff has been a journalist for forty years. He spent 16 years in
service for Time Magazine and is a regular contributor to Middle East
International and the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs. He has
written five excellent books on the Middle East.

There is a disturbing lack of historical perspective to the Clinton
administration’s efforts during its first days in office to shield
Israel from United Nations sanctions. Like former Secretary of State
James Baker’s repeated assertion that both sides must want peace for it
to occur, the Clinton-Rabin agreement ignores the sorry record of the 26
years since Israel’s conquest of the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem,
and the Golan Heights. During that period Israel has unequivocally
demonstrated that it does not want peace in exchange for territory. Its
insistence on expelling Palestinians who oppose the occupation and on
establishing Jewish settlements in the occupied territories are only the
latest manifestations of its desire to retain them. Equally important in
revealing its true policy is Israel’s successful record of resisting
American and other peace initiatives over the years.

These include defeating such imaginative initiatives and tireless
mediators as the U.N.’s Gunnar Jarring in the late 1960s, Secretary of
State William Rogers’ major peace proposals of 1969, Secretary of State
Henry Kissinger’s shuttle diplomacy of the mid-1970s, the lackadaisical
journeys of Secretary of State George Shultz in the 1980s, and the
intense Bush and Baker efforts of 1991 and 1992. The one success was
Jimmy Carter’s Camp David process.

However, the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty was unique. It came at the
expense of the Palestinians, which was by Israeli design, and in
exchange for Sinai, to which Israel never laid claim. Moreover, Israel
received in return for signing the peace treaty with Egypt commitments
from the U. S. that have now reached a level of economic and military
aid unsurpassed in our history.

The result is that Israel has managed to retain what it has wanted most:
East Jerusalem and the West Bank. After so many diplomatic initiatives,
it seems fair to conclude Israel does not want peace on any terms but
its own.

An end to expulsions is only the latest demand of the international
community on Israel, whose defiance goes back to its very beginnings.
There remain on the books of the United Nations a collection of
resolutions criticizing Israel unmatched by the record of any other
nation.

These resolutions, which now number 66, contain the international
community’s list of indictments against the Jewish state. The basic
issues were all spelled out even before the 1967 Security Council
resolution calling for a land-for-peace settlement.

Core Issues and Major Themes

The core issues, as contained in resolutions passed before 1967, remain
the Palestinian refugee problem, the status of Jerusalem, and the
location of Israel’s boundaries. These are the basic issues. They spring
from 1948, not 1967.

The early U.N. resolutions call for Israel to repatriate or compensate
the original 750,000 refugees of 1948-9 and to renounce Jerusalem as its
capital and regard it as a corpus separatum, an international city
dominated by neither Arab nor Israeli. (The U. S. position on Jerusalem
is slightly different and, not surprisingly, closer to Israel’s. It says
Jerusalem should not be a divided city and its final status should be
decided by the parties.) Finally, the original U.N. partition of
Palestine awarded Israel an area only about three-quarters of its
current official size. Israel’s increase was gained at the expense of
the Palestinians in the earlier conquests of 1948.

Other unreconciled issues from this earlier period include such sticky
situations as a demilitarized zone that Israel had shared with Syria
near the Sea of Galilee. Israel forcefully and unlawfully occupied this
zone in the 1950sand 1960s, in defiance of its 1949 armistice with
Syria. This deception predates Syria’s complaints about Israel’s
occupation of the Golan Heights in 1967. The zone is now integrated into
Israel’s economy and infrastructure. But Syria retains a legitimate
claim to it as disputed territory to be decided only after negotiations.

Aside from the core issues—refugees, Jerusalem, borders—the major themes
reflected in the U.N. resolutions against Israel over the years are its
unlawful attacks on its neighbors; its violations of the human rights of
the Palestinians, including deportations, demolitions of homes and other
collective punishments; its confiscation of Palestinian land; its
establishment of illegal settlements; and its refusal to abide by the
U.N. Charter and the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention Relative to the
Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

Phil - 20 Oct 2005 00:09 GMT
>> Yes, Israel is the biggest recipient of Welfare in the form of our tax dollars.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>That's got to be a record at least 5 lies in 3 sentences.

Not for Mike, it is.

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
Mimi Cohen - 19 Oct 2005 17:01 GMT
>>>>>>>Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read
>>>>>>>what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Phil

He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous
phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are
used to his kind can pick them out of a crowd at 1000 feet.
Phil - 20 Oct 2005 00:13 GMT
>He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous
>phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are
>used to his kind can pick them out of a crowd at 1000 feet.

He's been calling me a liar for years and has repeatedly been proved
to be a liar.

He's been calling me a bigot for years and has repeatedly shown his
hatred for different groups of people.

He has called me a drunk for years....

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 20 Oct 2005 03:05 GMT
> >He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous
> >phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are
> >used to his kind can pick them out of a crowd at 1000 feet.
>
> He's been calling me a liar for years and has repeatedly been proved
> to be a liar.

So says the drunk.

> He's been calling me a bigot for years and has repeatedly shown his
> hatred for different groups of people.

You supported Ghoulee's racist and fascist policies.

> He has called me a drunk for years....

You have been all along.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

Mimi Cohen - 20 Oct 2005 03:19 GMT
>>>He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous
>>>phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> You have been all along.

methinks you doth protest too much. He's much more sober than you, at
least his posts make sense whereas yours...... don't. Is that really why
you post on usenet; to be a bully? Are you a bully in your home too? Is
your wife (if you have one) intimidated by you because you bully her,
too? Heaven help them if you have children living with or near you.
Bullies generally pick on people they are larger than, because down deep
bullies are cowards who try to scare others by trying to back them down.
I'll tell you a secret (NOT*) I grew up with 8 older brothers, I don't
back down especially from pansy bullies who "think" they can intimidate
me. You don't, on your best day, stack up against any of my brothers on
their worst days. Men like you are a pitiful waste of skin and I spit in
your general direction. You're a pervert who fantacize about infants'
penises and a pathetic sad little man and *I* am so underwhelmed by you
words can't express the disdain I hold you in. In fact, you're so
inconsequential I'll continue communicating with Phil because, unlike
you, he can carry on an intelligent conversation whereas you can only
call him names and dream about babies' sex organs.
slim - 20 Oct 2005 04:26 GMT
> >>>He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous
> >>>phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> you, he can carry on an intelligent conversation whereas you can only
> call him names and dream about babies' sex organs.

Phil needs someone like you to defend him?

Pitiful.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

Phil - 20 Oct 2005 04:44 GMT
>Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
>
>Pitiful.

I don't need anyone to defend me from lies.  And since that's all you
have, I don't need anyone to defend me from you.

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
Mimi Cohen - 20 Oct 2005 05:18 GMT
>>Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Phil

That's what I just told him.
slim - 20 Oct 2005 14:59 GMT
> >>Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> That's what I just told him.

WOW! Now Phil has both Susie and Mimi on his side!

TWO TONS OF FUN!!!!

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

slim - 20 Oct 2005 14:58 GMT
> >Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
> >
> >Pitiful.
>
> I don't need anyone to defend me from lies.  And since that's all you
> have, I don't need anyone to defend me from you.

All you have is your mutt and your "Hom*brew"....truly sad.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

Mimi Cohen - 20 Oct 2005 17:33 GMT
>>>Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> All you have is your mutt and your "Hom*brew"....truly sad.

Which is far more than what you have.
flaviaR@verizon.net - 21 Oct 2005 21:15 GMT
> >Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
> >
> >Pitiful.
>
> I don't need anyone to defend me from lies.  And since that's all you
> have, I don't need anyone to defend me from you.

He's just upset because people like you have friends or at least people
who like/admire you - he never will.

Susan
Mimi Cohen - 22 Oct 2005 02:56 GMT
>>>Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Susan

A given  :)
slim - 23 Oct 2005 04:00 GMT
> > >Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> He's just upset because people like you have friends or at least people
> who like/admire you - he never will.

I don't fat, hairy, ugly fascists as friends.

Obviously, Phil will take whatever he can get.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

"How many American casualties is Saddam worth?
The answer is not very damned many."
- Dick Cheney, Seattle, August 1992

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02

Phil - 23 Oct 2005 05:15 GMT
>> > >Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
>> > >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>I don't fat, hairy, ugly fascists as friends.

I'm going to channel Mike here:

"I don't fat, hairy, ugly fascist as friends?"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What have you been drinking.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

How many of your hom*brews have you chugged down with Obwon

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
I'm going to repeat this lame, unimaginative joke for the next several
years!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

I have such low self esteem.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And I hate Jews!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

End of channeling.  Time for maturity.

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
Mimi Cohen - 23 Oct 2005 14:07 GMT
>>>>>Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
> http://www.hbd.org/nychg

:)
slim - 24 Oct 2005 22:01 GMT
> >> > >Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
> >> > >
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> End of channeling.  Time for maturity.

TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER
of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

"How many American casualties is Saddam worth?
The answer is not very damned many."
- Dick Cheney, Seattle, August 1992

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02

Phil - 25 Oct 2005 13:19 GMT
>TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER
>of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm.

Come on, Mike!  Enough of the old tired lies.  Come up with some fresh
lies.

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 26 Oct 2005 14:46 GMT
> >TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER
> >of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm.
>
> Come on, Mike!  Enough of the old tired lies.  Come up with some fresh
> lies.

Come on, Phil! Enough with the denial! You brew fresh beer! Up to
SIXTY GALLONS a year! You drink your brew!

Where is the lie?

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

"How many American casualties is Saddam worth?
The answer is not very damned many."
- Dick Cheney, Seattle, August 1992

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02

Mimi Cohen - 26 Oct 2005 16:12 GMT
> Where is the lie?

What's a Little Lying Between Friends?

By Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 25, 2005; 11:18 AM

"Some perjury technicality"?

Did Kay Bailey Hutchison really say that?

She must have. It was on "Meet the Press."

Is this the Republican strategy for dealing with any CIA leak indictments?
Saying no real crimes were committed, just a teensy weensy bit of perjury?
Turning Patrick Fitzgerald into Ken Starr?

I hasten to add that I have no idea whether anyone will be indicted. I've
never met Pat Fitzgerald, and I had problems with the way he threatened
reporters with jail, but as the U.S. attorney in Chicago who went after
some
Daley cronies, he has a sterling reputation.

It is true that prosecutors who can't prove the original crime often
wind up
bringing perjury and obstruction charges. But lying to investigators, or to
a federal grand jury, strikes at the heart of the law-enforcement process.
This happens to be the message that GOPers pounded over and over again when
Clinton dissembled over Monica, so surely they take it seriously. Or is
that
only when a Democrat is president?

Hutchison likened the senior administration officials who might or might
not
be indicted to Martha Stewart, who was only charged with a cover-up (lying
about insider trading is okay as long as you're not convicted of insider
trading? Well, Martha did get two TV shows, even though one is tanking).
The
Texas senator also complained about "sort of a gotcha mentality in this
country," which again, try as I might, I can't remember being a significant
Republican complaint during the prosecutions of the Clinton years.

It instantly occurred to me that I might check what Sen. Hutchison had to
say during the Lewinsky scandal. But in the blog world, somebody's already
thought of your best idea five minutes ago. So before I could type in the
Nexis search, I saw that Michael Crowley , on the New Republic's new group
grope "The Plank," has this:

"Hmm . . . That's not the tune Hutchison was singing back when Bill Clinton
was caught with his hands in the intern jar. Here's the February 13, 1999
Dallas Morning News:

" 'The principle of the rule of law-- equality under the law and a clear
standard for perjury and obstruction of justice-- was the overriding issue
in this impeachment,' said Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, who also
voted 'guilty' on both counts."

HuffPost blogger Trey Ellis pounces on Kay Bailey:

"Senator Hutchinson's absurd utterance was another GOP trial balloon intent
on trying to mute public outrage. Fox and the rest of the right-wing echo
chamber has been beating this drum ever since 'lawyers close to the case,'
(probably Rove and Libby's), leaked that indictments were coming not for
the
felony charge of outing an undercover agent but for lying about it to
federal investigators. You have to at least hand it to these guys, when
they're handed lemons, they try their damndest to make lemonade. 'Gee,
there's not enough evidence to actually convict the highest-ranking members
of the White House and the office of the Vice President of treason, just
perjury and conspiracy. Is that so wrong?'

"The party that said they won the last election because of their stand on
moral issues doesn't have a leg to stand on. Nothing shows how out of touch
Republicans now are with the values of the American people."

Michelle Malkin takes exception to Hutchison's remarks:

"Um, has anyone suggested that special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald is a
'gotcha' kind of guy who would throw away his good reputation by pursuing
'technicalities' instead of 'real' crimes? I haven't heard anyone on our
side suggest anything of the kind."

And yes, this must be an official strategy, as the New York Times reports
that "allies of the White House suggested Sunday that they intended to
pursue a strategy of attacking any criminal charges as a disagreement over
legal technicalities or the product of an overzealous prosecutor."

Pat Fitzgerald, menace to society?

Wasn't this guy appointed by the Bush Justice Department after Ashcroft
realized he was too conflicted to investigate Plamegate?

So the vice president of the United States did have some involvement:

"I. Lewis Libby Jr., Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, first
learned about the C.I.A. officer at the heart of the leak investigation
in a
conversation with Mr. Cheney weeks before her identity became public in
2003, lawyers involved in the case said Monday," according to the NYT .

"Notes of the previously undisclosed conversation between Mr. Libby and Mr.
Cheney on June 12, 2003, appear to differ from Mr. Libby's testimony to a
federal grand jury that he initially learned about the C.I.A. officer,
Valerie Wilson, from journalists, the lawyers said."

Nothing like preemptive leaking-- one of the great spectator sports.

Bill Kristol tries to elevate the argument against White House indictments
(and anticipates the Clinton-comparison argument):

"Unless the perjury is clear-cut or the obstruction of justice willful and
determined, we hope that the special prosecutor has the courage to end the
inquiry without bringing indictments. It is fundamentally inappropriate to
allow the criminal law to be used to resolve what is basically a policy and
political dispute within the administration, or between the administration
and its critics. One trusts that the special counsel will have the courage
after conducting his exhaustive investigation to reject inappropriate
criminal indictments if the evidence does not require them, no matter how
much criticism he might then get from the liberal establishment that yearns
to damage the Bush administration through the use of the criminal law.

"And I will go out on a limb to say this, based on the very limited
information one can glean from press accounts: It seems to me quite
possible-- dare I say probable?-- that no indictments would be the just and
appropriate resolution to this inquiry.

"I say this knowing that administration officials may have engaged in
behavior that is not altogether admirable. I say this knowing that legions
of Clinton defenders will complain that conservatives were happy to support
the impeachment of a president for lying under oath seven years ago. My
response to the second charge is that if anyone lied under oath the way
Bill
Clinton did-- knowingly and purposefully in order to thwart a legitimate
legal process, or if anyone engaged in an obstruction of justice, the way
Bill Clinton did, then indictments would be proper. What is more, the
Clinton White House mounted an extraordinary-- and successful-- political
campaign against the office of the independent counsel and the person of
Kenneth Starr. All the evidence suggests that the Bush White House has been
fully cooperative with, even deferential to, the Fitzgerald investigation."

Except if a senior official doesn't tell the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth to a grand jury-- and is charged with perjury-- that,
by definition, is less than "fully cooperative."

I found this John Dickerson piece in Slate to be one of the most revealing
about Scooter:

"It's surprising . . . to find Libby is at the center of a press scandal.
The daily communications operation is not something he cares much about.
Rove, by contrast, spends a portion of every day running his own press
operation. He sends BlackBerry messages, forwards polling data, and argues
his case to influential journalists. Libby flies at a higher altitude,
talking mostly to marquee columnists and preferring longer and more
in-depth
conversations to the rat-a-tat-tat required by reporters on deadline.

"Libby does enjoy the intellectual cat-and-mouse game of longer form
interviews, those who have worked with him say. He challenges basic
assumptions and presses on a reporter's sloppy definitions. In my
experience
interviewing him, if a line of reasoning was in any way harmful to the
administration or the vice president, it was sometimes impossible to get
past the gorilla dust. His shimmy and shake sometimes got so bad, I
wondered
if he would even admit to working for the vice president. 'It's very
lawyerly kind of amusement,' says a former aide.

"When the Cheneys hosted a party in February 2002 for the paperback
publication of Libby's book, the guest list was not filled with workaday
journalists, but with the elite from New York and Washington: Sally Quinn
and Ben Bradlee, Leon Wieseltier and Maureen Dowd. In those early days
after
9/11, it seemed like the relationship between the press and the media elite
might turn out to be a fairly cozy one. The Bushies hated 'old Washington,'
but as Libby and the vice president spoke from the landing at the bottom of
the stairs, it seemed as if their half of the administration understood the
quiet commerce between the ruling elite and the more permanent Washington
establishment . . .

"Libby is fussy and precise with reporters, which is why friends and
colleagues find it so hard to believe that he would have been involved in
leaking Plame's identity, obstructing justice, or committing perjury.

"Libby was an exacting source for anyone who talked to him. After using a
Libby quote, it was not unusual for reporters to receive a call from the
vice president's press shop. Mr. Libby wanted to know why only a portion of
his comment was used. 'He would prefer that if a reporter was going to
quote
him that it be an unedited transcript,' says one who worked closely with
him. Other reporters were scolded if a Libby quote hidden under the
attribution of 'senior administration official' was placed near sentences
that he thought might identify him, even if no reasonable reader could come
to such a conclusion. In other words, he's as careful as they come in
Washington."

On the Miers front, Ryan Lizza marvels in the New Republic at how quickly
the right has turned:

'That was fast. Last month, George W. Bush was the leader of the
conservative movement. This month, he's a traitor . . .

"To be sure, the conservative abandonment of Bush isn't total. The right is
divided. Some see the split as one of Washington eggheads versus the
red-state masses. Others, noting that the debate over Miers is, at its
core,
about abortion, interpret the current anger as a revolt by social
conservatives. But neither of these explanations quite captures what is
going on. The conservative war over Miers is being fought by elites on both
sides. The pro-Miers elites are just doing a better job of wrapping their
cause in populism."

The WSJ's John Fund is feeling the heat for his Harriet reporting:

"In desperation, I took to going on radio talk shows in Texas and
tongue-in-cheek offered to practice 'checkbook journalism' for the first
time in my career. I said I would write a small check to the favorite
charity of anyone who contacted me and could plausibly say that he has
had a
serious discussion about politics or judicial philosophy with Ms. Miers. So
far it hasn't cost me a dime.

"For my trouble, I have been incorrectly attacked by allies of Ms. Miers,
including some in the White House, for supposedly waving a checkbook
seeking
negative information about her. For the record, I made my offer in a
jocular
fashion, but to make a serious point. With the exception of President Bush,
no one appears to know the nominee's judicial philosophy."

By the way, says Fund, "I believe it is almost inevitable that Ms. Miers
will withdraw or be defeated."

In National Review, Danielle Crittenden offers a woman's perspective I
haven't seen before:

"It doesn't involve cigars or a stained dress. But the nomination of
Harriet
Miers has created a woman problem on the Right every bit as big as that
which faced feminists during Bill Clinton's presidency.

"For years, conservative women's groups such as the Independent Women's
Forum have opposed feminist visions of female equality. We opposed
affirmative action in the workplace, believing women had to be held to the
same standards as men. We rallied against quotas, with the reasoning
that if
there were fewer female firefighters than male, this was because women
didn't wish to take these jobs, and not because of discriminatory hiring
practices by the fire department . . .

"We were disgusted with feminist groups when they stood by Bill Clinton
through all his women troubles--when the National Organization for Women,
for example, jettisoned all its previously stated principles on sexual
harassment in order to retain political power.

"Now conservative women face a similar dilemma with Harriet: President Bush
has asked us to stand by a woman who is unqualified for the Court
because he
knows what's in her 'heart'-- not in her head.

"We are asked to stand by her because, simply, she is a woman-- a
'pioneer,'
a 'glass-ceiling breaker' -- even while other more qualified women were
rejected for the position (and interestingly, rejected by Harriet herself,
who headed the 'search' committee).

"That her pioneering had nothing to do with gathering expertise in
constitutional law -- well, no biggie. We must swallow the idea that quotas
and affirmative action are justifiable policies for the highest Court in
the
land.

"We are asked, further, to stand hypocritically by this decision as
Patricia
Ireland did when she stood by Bill Clinton--going so far as to sign letters
with other 'accomplished' women saying we believe Harriet Miers is
qualified
for the Court. Whatever our principles, we must jettison them in order to
retain political power."

Meanwhile, the Senate will not get a key part of the paper trail, as the
Boston Globe reports:

"President Bush vowed yesterday not to release any White House memos by his
Supreme Court nominee, Harriet E. Miers, provoking a standoff with senators
from both parties who have demanded more information about her work in the
White House.

"Senate leaders, who have asked that they be given a complete list of
Miers's memos by tomorrow, vowed to continue their efforts to obtain at
least some of Miers's White House work, arguing that such documents are
especially important because Miers lacks a record as a judge or law
professor.

"The emerging confrontation developed as criticism of the Miers nomination
expanded with the launching of two new conservative websites aimed at
forcing her withdrawal and raising money for ads against her."

The other woman under fire, Judy Miller, gives an interview to New York
Post
columnist Andrea Peyser :

" 'I'm not mad, I'm sad,' Judy told me from her home on Long Island. 'Isn't
it sad that, after going to jail for 85 days for a principle, it's come to
this?' . . .

"Judy will not take on her colleagues as personally as they've maligned
her.
'Believe it or not, I can be pretty mild. I'm not going to sink to that
level,' she said. 'But if someone says I'm a liar, I'm going to say I'm not
a liar.'"

Of course, those "colleagues" include her boss, Bill Keller.

American Journalism Review Editor Rem Rieder says Keller's mea culpa "was
both the right thing and the smart thing to do. Admitting that you've
screwed up is never easy. It's exponentially harder when you're the boss at
a revered (if flawed) American institution, and your mistakes have
compounded that institution's problems.

"The Times has never been what you would call a particularly transparent
newspaper. Its From the Editors note about the misguided Wen Ho Lee
coverage
was tortured, grudging. Its awfully late guilty plea about the paper's WMD
fiasco didn't even mention Miller.

"But this time Keller was forthright, to the point. And there was none of
the accepting-responsibility-but-not-blame that is so popular these
days. No
'mistakes were made.' These, Keller said, were on me. That's the way a true
leader acts."

Among the unhappy ex-Timesmen is David Halberstam :

" 'I think the paper has taken a terrible hit,' said David Halberstam, one
of the Times' most respected alums, and a former Pulitzer Prize-winning
writer. 'I think it is shocking that this young woman who has been a known
identified land mine for a long time seems to have guaranteed loyalty to
the
office of the Vice President of the United States more than to The New York
Times.' "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2005/10/25/BL2005102500520.html
Phil - 26 Oct 2005 21:20 GMT
>> >TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER
>> >of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Come on, Phil! Enough with the denial! You brew fresh beer! Up to
>SIXTY GALLONS a year! You drink your brew!

Yeah, so?

>Where is the lie?

You've been saying for years how drunk I am.  How about that?

And then there's that oh-so-subtle homosexual slur you like to throw
in.

Grow up, Mike.

Phil
======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 27 Oct 2005 20:48 GMT
> >> >TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER
> >> >of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> You've been saying for years how drunk I am.  How about that?

You ARE a drunk.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

"How many American casualties is Saddam worth?
The answer is not very damned many."
- Dick Cheney, Seattle, August 1992

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02

Phil - 28 Oct 2005 00:30 GMT
>> >> >TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER
>> >> >of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>You ARE a drunk.

Uh-huh...

I've called you a liar, and I backed it up with facts.

I've called you a bigot, and I backed it up with facts.

You call me a drunk and you back it up with sh.t.

Grow up, old man!

Phil

======
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
http://www.hbd.org/nychg
Mimi Cohen - 28 Oct 2005 04:21 GMT
>>>>>TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER
>>>>>of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> You ARE a drunk.

Even if he were he could sober up, you'll still be a stupid sh.t
slim - 28 Oct 2005 17:16 GMT
> >>>>>TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER
> >>>>>of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Even if he were he could sober up, you'll still be a stupid sh.t

And every day, you wake up as fat, hairy and ugly as the day before.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

"How many American casualties is Saddam worth?
The answer is not very damned many."
- Dick Cheney, Seattle, August 1992

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02

Mimi Cohen - 20 Oct 2005 05:18 GMT
>>>>>He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous
>>>>>phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Phil needs someone like you to defend him?

No one needs any defending from you, you're a pathetic loser who has to
*TRY* and knock someone down to feel better.

> Pitiful.

Yes, you are and pathetic, too
Nomen Nescio - 17 Oct 2005 01:10 GMT
>> Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Susan

Poor Susan Cohen ... scared to death she might one day be forced
to stop sucking baby boys' cocks.

What's an old decrepid jewess to do when she can no longer suck cock?

Poor Susan.
slim - 19 Oct 2005 15:03 GMT
> >> Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> What's an old decrepid jewess to do when she can no longer suck cock?

I heard that she takes out her false teeth and gives "Gumjobs"!

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton - 16 Oct 2005 10:14 GMT
Metzitzah b’peh was abandoned by all but fervently Orthodox mohels in
the 1950s, when diseases including herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea were
shown to be transmitted from mohel to baby.

As with Herpes Type 2 - the kind that results in genital blisters in
adults - there is no cure for Type 1, only treatment for outbreaks. The
virus can be passed from one person to another even when there are no
symptoms, say medical experts.

: Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia.
: Sick, sick, sick!
:
: Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the very
: BANE OF HUMANITY!
slim - 16 Oct 2005 23:22 GMT
> Metzitzah b’peh was abandoned by all but fervently Orthodox mohels in
> the 1950s, when diseases including herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea were
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> virus can be passed from one person to another even when there are no
> symptoms, say medical experts.

AND YET THE PRACTICE CONTINUES.

How nice you you folks to transmit disease to innocent infants
while sucking thier cocks.

Signature

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html

Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct
link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/

On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that,
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain --
I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the
interesting thing about being the president.
Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they
say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody
an explanation. "
- George Bush
Washington Post, 11-19-02

flaviaR@verizon.net - 16 Oct 2005 07:46 GMT
> http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539

Not one thing in here about the lie this bigot is trying to peddle.

Susan
LP - 16 Oct 2005 10:37 GMT
>> http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539
>
>Not one thing in here about the lie this bigot is trying to peddle.
>
>Susan

When I first heard of this a few years ago, I assumed it was a sick-o
anti-Semite making stuff up to deride Jewish people. I never seriously
considered the alternative, that it might be true.


Cut It Off
Another disgusting religious practice.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2125225/
Elroy Willis - 16 Oct 2005 12:39 GMT
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism

>>> http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539

>> Not one thing in here about the lie this bigot is trying to peddle.

> When I first heard of this a few years ago, I assumed it was a sick-o
> anti-Semite making stuff up to deride Jewish people. I never seriously
> considered the alternative, that it might be true.

You can bet that if the same health-endangering ritual was being
performed by some non-semitic circumcisionists, it would be outlawed
in a New York minute, don't you think?

Personally, I wonder what percentage of people who call themselves
Jewish actually support the practice.  Is it only 5%, perhaps?  60%?
90%?

Signature

Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com

Barry - 16 Oct 2005 12:57 GMT
> You can bet that if the same health-endangering ritual was being
> performed by some non-semitic circumcisionists, it would be outlawed
> in a New York minute, don't you think?

It's not a semitic thing--it's a religious tolerance thing.

Is it in the bible that it should be done, or is it tradition or what?
Can we define all forms of Judaism as the belief in the old testament
to various extents, or can tradition shape Judaism? Maybe it
technically wouldn't be against Judaism to prohibit that form of
circumcision. It would be against SOME religion though, and those who
practice it would probably say it's a Judaism thing whether it's
biblical or not.
Elroy Willis - 16 Oct 2005 13:53 GMT
Barry <barry@polisource.com> wrote in alt.atheism

>> You can bet that if the same health-endangering ritual was being
>> performed by some non-semitic circumcisionists, it would be outlawed
>> in a New York minute, don't you think?

> It's not a semitic thing--it's a religious tolerance thing.

> Is it in the bible that it should be done, or is it tradition or what?

Obviously it's part of at least some sects of Judaism.  When did it
start, and what's the Biblical basis for it?  If it started as some
actual health-related benefit and there are currently better and safer
ways to achieve that same health-benefit, then the old way or
tradition should be abandoned.  If it started as pure ritual with no
actual health benefit, then it should be abandoned as well.

> Can we define all forms of Judaism as the belief in the old testament
> to various extents, or can tradition shape Judaism? Maybe it
> technically wouldn't be against Judaism to prohibit that form of
> circumcision. It would be against SOME religion though, and those who
> practice it would probably say it's a Judaism thing whether it's
> biblical or not.

You snipped my question about what % of Jews actually support the
practice.  If it's only a tiny minority, then what's the big deal with
doing away with it?  The majority is controlled by a few stubborn
ultra-orthodox Jews who claim religious persecution when people tell
them to quit doing it?

Signature

Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com

Mimi Cohen - 16 Oct 2005 18:59 GMT
> Barry <barry@polisource.com> wrote in alt.atheism
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> ultra-orthodox Jews who claim religious persecution when people tell
> them to quit doing it?

Even *IF* (the biggest word in the English language) a majority of Jews
do support the practice, what business is it of yours? Why do non-Jews
feel they have the "right" to question us and our practices?
Note I didn't say most of us do practice that little tiny part of the
bris, only that if we did what business is it of yours.
Wunderkind - 16 Oct 2005 22:35 GMT
>> Barry <barry@polisource.com> wrote in alt.atheism
>>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Note I didn't say most of us do practice that little tiny part of the
> bris, only that if we did what business is it of yours.

We goyim are rightly concerned because it's an inhumane practice like
child labor and conscription of children into armed conflict.

WK
Mimi Cohen - 16 Oct 2005 23:54 GMT
>>> Barry <barry@polisource.com> wrote in alt.atheism
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> We goyim are rightly concerned because it's an inhumane practice like
> child labor and conscription of children into armed conflict.

HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha

I estimated your IQ too high, it's more like 40
øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton - 17 Oct 2005 08:06 GMT
It is not inhuman you f.cking idiot.

It is also performed MEDICALLY and sometimes because of NECESSITY!

: We goyim are rightly concerned because it's an inhumane practice like
: child labor and conscription of children into armed conflict.
:
: WK
slim - 17 Oct 2005 15:36 GMT
> It is not inhuman you f.cking idiot.
>
> It is also performed MEDICALLY and sometimes because of NECESSITY!

So as its practiced by Mohels, its not medically sound and most of
the times the procedure is UNECESSARY!

Thanks RainMan.

Sig