Medical Forum / General / General / October 2005
Doctors blast rabbis performing fellatio on babies
|
|
Thread rating:  |
nyc - 15 Oct 2005 01:28 GMT http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539
City Risking Babies' Lives With Brit Policy: Health Experts
Renowned authorities, one at Bloomberg-named medical school, blast mayors administration over controversial circumcision practice.
Debra Nussbaum Cohen - Staff Writer A renowned expert on sexually transmitted disease denounced as outrageous this week the Bloomberg administrations failure to ban New York City mohels from suctioning blood with their mouths from a babys penis in the circumcision rite.
[It] is a major public health hazard, declared Dr. Jonathan Zenilman, a professor of epidemiology at the Bloomberg School of Public Health the Johns Hopkins University education and research center named for New Yorks philanthropist mayor, its biggest financial supporter.
Zenilman, who grew up in an Orthodox family in Woodmere, L.I., warned that allowing the practice known as metzitzah bpeh is actually crazy due to the potentially fatal danger of transmitting herpes to vulnerable newborns.
A prominent colleague, Dr. John Santelli, chair of the Department of Population and Family Health at Columbia Universitys Mailman School of Public Health, joined the criticism.
Those kids are at very high risk of death and encephalitis, he said, explaining, If you cut the skin as obviously you have to in a circumcision it increases risk of transmission to the infant. Newborns just dont have great immune systems, so the worst time to get a case of herpes is in the newborn.
Metzitzah bpeh, which is practiced routinely by some fervently Orthodox mohels, has been at the center of a case involving Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer, a Monsey-based mohel suspected of having infected three babies with herpes. One of the baby boys died last October.
But the city Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, which began investigating the suspected link of the infections to Rabbi Fischer, agreed not to ban the practice after vigorous lobbying by New Yorks fervently Orthodox community, including of Bloomberg. In his re-election campaign, Bloombergs TV commercials tout him as a champion of public health.
On Sept. 15 the city withdrew the lawsuit it had filed against Rabbi Fischer and the court order banning him from using the technique, and turned the case over to an Orthodox rabbinical court, or bet din, in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Rabbi Fischer agreed to stop using the technique pending the bet dins resolution of the case.
This appears to be the first time the city has turned the adjudication of a public health issue over to a religious body.
Zenilman and Santelli said the narrow focus on Rabbi Fischer is misplaced. They said because Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1 is a very common disease studies cited by the Health Department in its legal briefs say that 65 percent of Americans have contracted it by age 12 the potential impact on public health goes far beyond concern over one mohel.
From a public health standpoint, at the least there should have been a consent decree that this practice would not continue in this community, said Zenilman, who also heads the Johns Hopkins Center for Reproductive Tract Infections and is president of the American STD (Sexually Transmitted Diseases) Association. It is within the scope of a public health authority to ban it, and I find it outrageous that it hasnt been.
Santelli, who is also a pediatrician, stressed, This is a public health problem. Its certainly a dangerous practice from a medical point of view.
Indeed, legal documents filed in connection with the case by the director of the Health Departments Bureau of Sexually Transmitted Diseases, state that Herpes Type 1, which generally causes just fever blisters and cold sores in healthy older children and adults, is fatal as much as 30 percent of the time in newborns.
Dr. Susan Blank, the bureaus director, turned down an interview request from The Jewish Week. Requests for access to the results of the Health Departments investigation of Rabbi Fischer have gone unanswered.
Rabbi David Zwiebel, executive vice president of Agudath Israel, an umbrella body of ultra-traditional Orthodox groups, has said metzitzah bpeh is probably performed more than 2,000 times a year in New York City. Many additional instances occur in other areas with substantial populations of ultra-traditional Jews, such as Rockland County.
The New York Times reported in August that Rabbi Fischer had done some 12,000 circumcisions.
Parts of the Orthodox community and Rabbi Fischers attorney frame the issue as one of religious practice that should be free from government interference. They question claims that it spreads herpes.
Mohels use antiseptic mouthwash before performing oral suction, they say, and the known incidence of herpes among infants who have undergone it is minuscule.
According to the Times, the citys Health Department recorded cases in 1988 and 1998, though doctors in New York, as in most states, are not required to report neonatal herpes.
Prominent members of the large Satmar chasidic community, based in Brooklyn and Rockland County, including Rabbi David Niederman, a spokesman for the rabbinical court handling the case, have told The Jewish Week the community will continue the practice. A delegation of chasidic leaders lobbied Bloomberg on the issue in August. Their bloc vote is sought after by mayoral candidates.
Were going to do a study and make sure that everybody is safe, and at the same time it is not the governments business to tell people how to practice their religion, Bloomberg said on a radio program one day later.
Health Commissioner Thomas Frieden told the Times the city did not intend to ban or regulate the practice, partly because any such an attempt would be virtually unenforceable. Circumcision generally takes place in private homes.
Not all ultra-traditional groups mandate the practice, and the Modern Orthodox-oriented Rabbinical Council of America recommends using a sterile tube and gloves to avoid direct oral-genital contact.
The criticisms by Zenilman and Santelli come in the wake of a paper in the medical journal Pediatrics last year that studied eight cases of baby boys in Israel who developed herpes after their circumcision, most probably as a consequence of transmission by the mohels saliva, it stated.
Oral metzitzah after ritual circumcision may be hazardous to the neonate because it carries a serious risk for transmission of the herpes simplex virus, the paper concluded.
Asked its reaction to the experts warning this week, the Health Department reissued a statement it released last month:
Our goal was for Rabbi Fischer to discontinue practicing metzitzah bpeh, a spokesman said. He has now agreed to do so. It has always been our preference for the religious community to regulate itself as long as the publics health was protected.
While cases of herpes transmission from mohel to baby are rare, they are documented going back as far as an 1811 medical book that detailed an outbreak in Krakows Jewish quarter.
Metzitzah bpeh was abandoned by all but fervently Orthodox mohels in the 1950s, when diseases including herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea were shown to be transmitted from mohel to baby.
As with Herpes Type 2 the kind that results in genital blisters in adults there is no cure for Type 1, only treatment for outbreaks. The virus can be passed from one person to another even when there are no symptoms, say medical experts.
Its often an asymptomatic disease, Santelli said.
According to Zenilman, People shed the virus occasionally even without the presence of lesions, and any immune system suppression, including cancer and HIV-AIDS, can prompt shedding. Even taking inhaled steroids for asthma can prompt someone to unknowingly shed the Herpes 1 virus.
An actual outbreak of lesions can be prompted by trauma to the mouth, like having a dental cleaning, by having a fever for any reason, or being congested, or by exposure to the sun.
Its an everyday occurrence, Zenilman said. Although an individual can look absolutely healthy and have no illness, they can be shedding virus.
Transmitting the virus, he said, requires genital-genital contact, oral-genital contact or other direct transmission across mucous membranes, like contact between a herpes blister on someones finger and someone elses mouth.
Rabbi Fischers attorney, Mark Kurzmann, has said the infection of the three baby boys including twins from Brooklyn which became evident shortly after Rabbi Fischer circumcised them is nothing more than a tragic coincidence.
The twins were circumcised on Oct. 16, 2004, and admitted to Maimonides Medical Center eight days later with fever and lesions in the genital area, according to court documents. Two days after that, one of the twins died of liver failure as a result of Type 1 Herpes Simplex Virus.
At about that time, the Health Department became aware of another baby, on Staten Island, who developed signs of herpes infection a week and a half after Rabbi Fischer circumcised him using metzitzah bpeh. That baby was hospitalized for three weeks and recovered after antiviral treatment.
Kurzmann said he had no comment in response to the statements by Zenilman and Santelli.
In a September interview, Kurzmann said it appears more likely than not that the babies contracted the herpes from someone prior to the bris, or a person other than Rabbi Fischer after the bris.
That, said Zenilman, is nearly impossible because of when and where on the boys the herpes lesions appeared.
If it had passed from mother to baby during birth, he said, it would have required that the mothers in question had active herpes lesions in the birth canal. The newborns, in turn, would have had sores all over their bodies, not just in their genital areas.
Alternatively, Zenilman said, a mother-passed infection would have caused an encephalitis-like disease, and the baby also would have shown evidence of the disease in his first week of life, before the brit.
It is also highly unlikely another nurse in the hospital or caregiver caused the infection, he said, as that would have required the nurse to spit on the babys penis or have direct mouth-to-genital contact that could have infected all three babies.
Michael Gray - 15 Oct 2005 02:49 GMT >http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539 > >City Risking Babies' Lives With Brit Policy: Health Experts > >Renowned authorities, one at Bloomberg-named medical school, blast >mayor’s administration over controversial circumcision practice. I think a lot of Poms are going to be a trifle upset about the confusion between "Brit" and "Bris".
øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton - 15 Oct 2005 03:34 GMT I just knew those dirty Brits were up to something!
*smirk*
: >http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539 : > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : I think a lot of Poms are going to be a trifle upset about the : confusion between "Brit" and "Bris". Barry - 15 Oct 2005 08:55 GMT It's not just for the super religious. My cousin had a mohel like that. I saw it from outside a packed room and I'd never heard of that technique, and for years I wasn't sure if I saw right. Everyone laughed when it happened. I suspect more religious jews would know about that technique and not laugh.
"...doctors in New York, as in most states, are not required to report neonatal herpes"
That should change.
Twittering One - 15 Oct 2005 09:04 GMT slim - 16 Oct 2005 23:21 GMT > It's not just for the super religious. My cousin had a mohel like that. > I saw it from outside a packed room and I'd never heard of that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That should change. There should be no COCKSUCKING OF INFANTS.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
Freedom Fighter - 15 Oct 2005 21:35 GMT Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia. Sick, sick, sick!
Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the very BANE OF HUMANITY!
flaviaR@verizon.net - 16 Oct 2005 08:02 GMT > Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia. Interesting how this bigot snipped then entire post to which he was replying - could it have anything to do with the fact that the article in question doesn't say what Jew-haters pretend it does?
> Sick, sick, sick! & you could get help, too.
> Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the very > BANE OF HUMANITY! Nah, the eternal enemy is irrantional bigotry, as practiced by anonymous cowards such as "Freedom Fighter". Of course, firemen fight fires - so I can see where's he's a freedom fighter.
Susan
Mimi Cohen - 16 Oct 2005 19:04 GMT >>Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > & you could get help, too. But the treatment would last years to dig out that sickness :)
>>Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the very >>BANE OF HUMANITY! > > Nah, the eternal enemy is irrantional bigotry, as practiced by anonymous > cowards such as "Freedom Fighter". Of course, firemen fight fires - so I > can see where's he's a freedom fighter. Good point
> Susan Freedom Fighter - 17 Oct 2005 01:06 GMT >> Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia. > > Interesting how this bigot snipped then entire post to which he > was replying - could it have anything to do with the fact that the > article in question doesn't say what Jew-haters pretend it does? "Bigot?" Your intolerance of my opinion is where the bigotry lies! I snipped the text for the brevity of the response and the ease of reading it.
>> Sick, sick, sick! > > & you could get help, too. Ad-hominem attack is the refuge of unintelligent and immature people that can't refute an opinion with logic or facts, so they resort to childishly attacking the person that holds the opinion.
>> Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the very >> BANE OF HUMANITY! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan ----------- Cowardly people do not dare to attack the bane of humanity, the ignorant superstitions known as religion, as there are no more hateful and vindictive people in the world than the blind adherents to those irrational fables! And your response to my statements here is the perfect proof of this fact. Oversensitive, aren't you? I criticize this cruel and perverse practice, and that automatically makes me a "Jew-hater."
Slicing off the penis tip of a newborn without anesthesia, then sucking the blood from wounded penis, is the HEIGHT of perverse cruelty, no matter whose crazy, antiquated beliefs dictate that it be done.
flaviaR@verizon.net - 17 Oct 2005 11:42 GMT > >> Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "Bigot?" Your intolerance of my opinion is where the bigotry lies! Oh, I love it1 My hatred of his bigtry makes me a bigot! ROTFLOL!!
> I snipped the text for the brevity of the response and the ease of reading Yeah, right - it just HAPPENED that it also cut out everything
> it. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > can't refute an opinion with logic or facts, so they resort to childishly > attacking the person that holds the opinion. & thank you for admitting it since **YOU** a) were the pne who called *us* sick b) had NO facts to bask it up c) tried calling e a bigot for callling you on your obvious bigotry.
> >> Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the > >> very [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > vindictive > people in the world than the blind adherents to those irrational fables! You are a coward because you not only hide your actual identity, but you have only lies to tell about what you like to pretend is the "bane of humanity". The fact that you have to tell such incredible lies shows that you obviously know that you have ONLY your own irrational hatred of religion to go on. You told lies in the header, you snipped the only "proof" you brought because you know it doesn't bolster that lie, and when called on your lies, you throw out grandiose ad hominem (such as "bane of humanity") to hide all that you have tried to do. The only ignorant, hateful & vindictive loser here is yourself, proven by your own actions.
> And > your response to my statements here is the perfect proof of this fact. OInly in your wishful thinking. You told lies, I pointed out that they are lies; you even snipped the proof thatthey were lies & you tried ducking that fact - this doesn't resemble anything you've outlined. Then again, I am a literate, truthful adult - rather the opposite of yourself.
> Oversensitive, aren't you? Again that would be you. Look at the hysteria with which you answered my posts.
> I criticize this cruel and perverse practice, Or, ratherm you lie about it being cruwl & poerverse, & you lie outrageously in the header....
> and > that automatically makes me a "Jew-hater." Anyone who lies like you specifically about Jews could not escape being labelled such. Live with it, or examine your prejudices & rid yourself of them.
> Slicing off the penis tip of a newborn without anesthesia, A lie, of course. You've never been to a bris, have you? I would suggest you do some more research, but you have shown yourself to be
resistant to them (such as in the article url you snipped because it didn't bolster the lies you wetre trying to tell).
then sucking
> the > blood from wounded penis, Getting the blood out of a wound to keep it from scabbing & scarring? Just what do you think doctors do during surgery? They simply use big instruments because the wound - and the amount of blood - are greatly magnified. I know your type - were we to start using surgical instruments to do this, you would pretend they were the modern equivalent of medieaval torture devices - and the only shred of proof you would have would be thatthe pressure was too great for a baby's penis - hence the mouth tube almost universally used. You are a classic bigot; not even doing what you would want us to do would satisfy you.
> is the HEIGHT of perverse cruelty, Hardly. Tho' I can see why you are desperate to portray it as such.
no matter
> whose > crazy, antiquated beliefs As opposed to irrational hateful beliefs like yous
Susan
dictate that it be done.
slim - 17 Oct 2005 15:38 GMT > then sucking > > the > > blood from wounded penis, > > Getting the blood out of a wound to keep it from scabbing & scarring? > Just what do you think doctors do during surgery? DOCTORS NEVER PUT THIER MOUTHS ON OPEN WOUNDS, MUCH LESS BLEEDING PENISES.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
Mimi Cohen - 17 Oct 2005 16:12 GMT >>>>Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia. >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >>"Bigot?" Your intolerance of my opinion is where the bigotry lies! IKYABWAI noted
> Oh, I love it1 > My hatred of his bigtry makes me a bigot! > ROTFLOL!!
:) Freedom Fighter - 17 Oct 2005 23:19 GMT Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous responses to my opinions, and make up their own minds.
slim - 18 Oct 2005 00:11 GMT > Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read > what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous > responses to my opinions, and make up their own minds. And no matter how much they wail, their own media posted the lurid details of grown men sucking multilated infants penises.
Oy Vay!!!!!
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
Phil - 18 Oct 2005 01:55 GMT >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Oy Vay!!!!! Alright, Mike! We get it!
You hate Jews!
Phil ====== visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 18 Oct 2005 04:56 GMT > >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read > >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > You hate Jews! Noooooooo.....I HATE PEOPLE WHO MULTILATE INNOCENT KIDS!
THERE IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER FOR THIS CRAP.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
Phil - 18 Oct 2005 13:28 GMT >> >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read >> >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Noooooooo.....I HATE PEOPLE WHO MULTILATE INNOCENT KIDS! That's not the reason.
>THERE IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER FOR THIS CRAP. It's difficult to just 'drop' thousands of years of tradition.
Kind of like you can't stop lying.
Phil
====== visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 19 Oct 2005 04:42 GMT > >> >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read > >> >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > That's not the reason. Yes it is.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
Phil - 19 Oct 2005 12:41 GMT >> >> >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read >> >> >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Yes it is. What about all the aid we send them? You've ranted about that for quite a while.
Phil ====== visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 19 Oct 2005 15:02 GMT > >> >> >> Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read > >> >> >> what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > What about all the aid we send them? You've ranted about that for > quite a while. Yes, Israel is the biggest recipient of Welfare in the form of our tax dollars.
We keep them alfloat and they spy on us and have a record number of UN sanctions against them for human rights violations.
Israel is a religious State with fascist ideology.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
Mimi Cohen - 19 Oct 2005 17:02 GMT > Yes, Israel is the biggest recipient of Welfare in the form of our tax dollars. > > We keep them alfloat and they spy on us and have a record number of > UN sanctions against them for human rights violations. > > Israel is a religious State with fascist ideology. That's got to be a record at least 5 lies in 3 sentences.
slim - 19 Oct 2005 17:14 GMT > > Yes, Israel is the biggest recipient of Welfare in the form of our tax dollars. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That's got to be a record at least 5 lies in 3 sentences. "Its a lie" - #1 Jewish excuse
WELFARE
Israel receieves more aid (TAX DOLLARS) than any other nation
U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact
Summary Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)
Foreign Aid Grants and Loans $74,157,600,000
Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid) $9,047,227,200
Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments $1,650,000,000
Grand Total $84,854,827,200
Total Benefits per Israeli $14,630 Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel
Grand Total $84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S. $49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers $134,791,507,200
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli $23,240
Special Reports:
*
Congress Watch: A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billionand Counting
*
Congressional Research Report on Israel: US Foreign Assistance by Clyde Mark (213K pdf file)
*
U.S. Aid To Israel: The Strategic Functions
*
U.S. Aid to Israel: What U.S. Taxpayer Should Know
*
U.S. Aid to Israel: Interpreting the 'Strategic Relationship'
*
The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers: True Lies About U.S. Aid to Israel
THE STRATEGIC FUNCTIONS OF U.S. AID TO ISRAEL
By Stephen Zunes
Dr. Zunes is an assistant professor in the Department of Politics at the University of San Francisco
Since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees. Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan. U.S. policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal or exceed Israel's annual debt repayment to the United States. Unlike other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the fiscal year, leaving the U.S. government to borrow from future revenues. Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills and collects the additional interest.
In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities, does not exist with any other country. Nor do these figures include short- and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been as high as $1 billion annually in recent years.
Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.
AID does not term economic aid to Israel as development assistance, but instead uses the term "economic support funding." Given Israel's relative prosperity, U.S. aid to Israel is becoming increasingly controversial. In 1994, Yossi Beilen, deputy foreign minister of Israel and a Knesset member, told the Women's International Zionist organization, "If our economic situation is better than in many of your countries, how can we go on asking for your charity?"
UN SANCTIONS
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/neff-un.html
Lessons to be Learned From 66 U.N. Resolutions Israel Ignores
By Donald Neff Former Time Magazine Bureau Chief, Israel Fifty Years of Israel Originally printed in the Washington Report in March 1993 Donald Neff has been a journalist for forty years. He spent 16 years in service for Time Magazine and is a regular contributor to Middle East International and the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs. He has written five excellent books on the Middle East.
There is a disturbing lack of historical perspective to the Clinton administrations efforts during its first days in office to shield Israel from United Nations sanctions. Like former Secretary of State James Bakers repeated assertion that both sides must want peace for it to occur, the Clinton-Rabin agreement ignores the sorry record of the 26 years since Israels conquest of the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. During that period Israel has unequivocally demonstrated that it does not want peace in exchange for territory. Its insistence on expelling Palestinians who oppose the occupation and on establishing Jewish settlements in the occupied territories are only the latest manifestations of its desire to retain them. Equally important in revealing its true policy is Israels successful record of resisting American and other peace initiatives over the years.
These include defeating such imaginative initiatives and tireless mediators as the U.N.s Gunnar Jarring in the late 1960s, Secretary of State William Rogers major peace proposals of 1969, Secretary of State Henry Kissingers shuttle diplomacy of the mid-1970s, the lackadaisical journeys of Secretary of State George Shultz in the 1980s, and the intense Bush and Baker efforts of 1991 and 1992. The one success was Jimmy Carters Camp David process.
However, the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty was unique. It came at the expense of the Palestinians, which was by Israeli design, and in exchange for Sinai, to which Israel never laid claim. Moreover, Israel received in return for signing the peace treaty with Egypt commitments from the U. S. that have now reached a level of economic and military aid unsurpassed in our history.
The result is that Israel has managed to retain what it has wanted most: East Jerusalem and the West Bank. After so many diplomatic initiatives, it seems fair to conclude Israel does not want peace on any terms but its own.
An end to expulsions is only the latest demand of the international community on Israel, whose defiance goes back to its very beginnings. There remain on the books of the United Nations a collection of resolutions criticizing Israel unmatched by the record of any other nation.
These resolutions, which now number 66, contain the international communitys list of indictments against the Jewish state. The basic issues were all spelled out even before the 1967 Security Council resolution calling for a land-for-peace settlement.
Core Issues and Major Themes
The core issues, as contained in resolutions passed before 1967, remain the Palestinian refugee problem, the status of Jerusalem, and the location of Israels boundaries. These are the basic issues. They spring from 1948, not 1967.
The early U.N. resolutions call for Israel to repatriate or compensate the original 750,000 refugees of 1948-9 and to renounce Jerusalem as its capital and regard it as a corpus separatum, an international city dominated by neither Arab nor Israeli. (The U. S. position on Jerusalem is slightly different and, not surprisingly, closer to Israels. It says Jerusalem should not be a divided city and its final status should be decided by the parties.) Finally, the original U.N. partition of Palestine awarded Israel an area only about three-quarters of its current official size. Israels increase was gained at the expense of the Palestinians in the earlier conquests of 1948.
Other unreconciled issues from this earlier period include such sticky situations as a demilitarized zone that Israel had shared with Syria near the Sea of Galilee. Israel forcefully and unlawfully occupied this zone in the 1950sand 1960s, in defiance of its 1949 armistice with Syria. This deception predates Syrias complaints about Israels occupation of the Golan Heights in 1967. The zone is now integrated into Israels economy and infrastructure. But Syria retains a legitimate claim to it as disputed territory to be decided only after negotiations.
Aside from the core issuesrefugees, Jerusalem, bordersthe major themes reflected in the U.N. resolutions against Israel over the years are its unlawful attacks on its neighbors; its violations of the human rights of the Palestinians, including deportations, demolitions of homes and other collective punishments; its confiscation of Palestinian land; its establishment of illegal settlements; and its refusal to abide by the U.N. Charter and the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
Phil - 20 Oct 2005 00:09 GMT >> Yes, Israel is the biggest recipient of Welfare in the form of our tax dollars. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >That's got to be a record at least 5 lies in 3 sentences. Not for Mike, it is.
Phil ====== visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.hbd.org/nychg
Mimi Cohen - 19 Oct 2005 17:01 GMT >>>>>>>Well Susan, I'm willing to allow open-minded, free-thinking people to read >>>>>>>what I've posted, then witness the hysteria and desperation in your libelous [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Phil He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are used to his kind can pick them out of a crowd at 1000 feet.
Phil - 20 Oct 2005 00:13 GMT >He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous >phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are >used to his kind can pick them out of a crowd at 1000 feet. He's been calling me a liar for years and has repeatedly been proved to be a liar.
He's been calling me a bigot for years and has repeatedly shown his hatred for different groups of people.
He has called me a drunk for years....
Phil ====== visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 20 Oct 2005 03:05 GMT > >He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous > >phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are > >used to his kind can pick them out of a crowd at 1000 feet. > > He's been calling me a liar for years and has repeatedly been proved > to be a liar. So says the drunk.
> He's been calling me a bigot for years and has repeatedly shown his > hatred for different groups of people. You supported Ghoulee's racist and fascist policies.
> He has called me a drunk for years.... You have been all along.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
Mimi Cohen - 20 Oct 2005 03:19 GMT >>>He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous >>>phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > You have been all along. methinks you doth protest too much. He's much more sober than you, at least his posts make sense whereas yours...... don't. Is that really why you post on usenet; to be a bully? Are you a bully in your home too? Is your wife (if you have one) intimidated by you because you bully her, too? Heaven help them if you have children living with or near you. Bullies generally pick on people they are larger than, because down deep bullies are cowards who try to scare others by trying to back them down. I'll tell you a secret (NOT*) I grew up with 8 older brothers, I don't back down especially from pansy bullies who "think" they can intimidate me. You don't, on your best day, stack up against any of my brothers on their worst days. Men like you are a pitiful waste of skin and I spit in your general direction. You're a pervert who fantacize about infants' penises and a pathetic sad little man and *I* am so underwhelmed by you words can't express the disdain I hold you in. In fact, you're so inconsequential I'll continue communicating with Phil because, unlike you, he can carry on an intelligent conversation whereas you can only call him names and dream about babies' sex organs.
slim - 20 Oct 2005 04:26 GMT > >>>He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous > >>>phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > you, he can carry on an intelligent conversation whereas you can only > call him names and dream about babies' sex organs. Phil needs someone like you to defend him?
Pitiful.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
Phil - 20 Oct 2005 04:44 GMT >Phil needs someone like you to defend him? > >Pitiful. I don't need anyone to defend me from lies. And since that's all you have, I don't need anyone to defend me from you.
Phil ====== visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.hbd.org/nychg
Mimi Cohen - 20 Oct 2005 05:18 GMT >>Phil needs someone like you to defend him? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Phil That's what I just told him.
slim - 20 Oct 2005 14:59 GMT > >>Phil needs someone like you to defend him? > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That's what I just told him. WOW! Now Phil has both Susie and Mimi on his side!
TWO TONS OF FUN!!!!
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
slim - 20 Oct 2005 14:58 GMT > >Phil needs someone like you to defend him? > > > >Pitiful. > > I don't need anyone to defend me from lies. And since that's all you > have, I don't need anyone to defend me from you. All you have is your mutt and your "Hom*brew"....truly sad.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
Mimi Cohen - 20 Oct 2005 17:33 GMT >>>Phil needs someone like you to defend him? >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > All you have is your mutt and your "Hom*brew"....truly sad. Which is far more than what you have.
flaviaR@verizon.net - 21 Oct 2005 21:15 GMT > >Phil needs someone like you to defend him? > > > >Pitiful. > > I don't need anyone to defend me from lies. And since that's all you > have, I don't need anyone to defend me from you. He's just upset because people like you have friends or at least people who like/admire you - he never will.
Susan
Mimi Cohen - 22 Oct 2005 02:56 GMT >>>Phil needs someone like you to defend him? >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Susan A given :)
slim - 23 Oct 2005 04:00 GMT > > >Phil needs someone like you to defend him? > > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > He's just upset because people like you have friends or at least people > who like/admire you - he never will. I don't fat, hairy, ugly fascists as friends.
Obviously, Phil will take whatever he can get.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
"How many American casualties is Saddam worth? The answer is not very damned many." - Dick Cheney, Seattle, August 1992
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02
Phil - 23 Oct 2005 05:15 GMT >> > >Phil needs someone like you to defend him? >> > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I don't fat, hairy, ugly fascists as friends. I'm going to channel Mike here:
"I don't fat, hairy, ugly fascist as friends?"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
What have you been drinking.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
How many of your hom*brews have you chugged down with Obwon
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH I'm going to repeat this lame, unimaginative joke for the next several years!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
I have such low self esteem.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
And I hate Jews!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
End of channeling. Time for maturity.
Phil ====== visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.hbd.org/nychg
Mimi Cohen - 23 Oct 2005 14:07 GMT >>>>>Phil needs someone like you to defend him? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: > http://www.hbd.org/nychg
:) slim - 24 Oct 2005 22:01 GMT > >> > >Phil needs someone like you to defend him? > >> > > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > End of channeling. Time for maturity. TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
"How many American casualties is Saddam worth? The answer is not very damned many." - Dick Cheney, Seattle, August 1992
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02
Phil - 25 Oct 2005 13:19 GMT >TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER >of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm. Come on, Mike! Enough of the old tired lies. Come up with some fresh lies.
Phil ====== visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 26 Oct 2005 14:46 GMT > >TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER > >of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm. > > Come on, Mike! Enough of the old tired lies. Come up with some fresh > lies. Come on, Phil! Enough with the denial! You brew fresh beer! Up to SIXTY GALLONS a year! You drink your brew!
Where is the lie?
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
"How many American casualties is Saddam worth? The answer is not very damned many." - Dick Cheney, Seattle, August 1992
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02
Mimi Cohen - 26 Oct 2005 16:12 GMT > Where is the lie? What's a Little Lying Between Friends?
By Howard Kurtz Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, October 25, 2005; 11:18 AM
"Some perjury technicality"?
Did Kay Bailey Hutchison really say that?
She must have. It was on "Meet the Press."
Is this the Republican strategy for dealing with any CIA leak indictments? Saying no real crimes were committed, just a teensy weensy bit of perjury? Turning Patrick Fitzgerald into Ken Starr?
I hasten to add that I have no idea whether anyone will be indicted. I've never met Pat Fitzgerald, and I had problems with the way he threatened reporters with jail, but as the U.S. attorney in Chicago who went after some Daley cronies, he has a sterling reputation.
It is true that prosecutors who can't prove the original crime often wind up bringing perjury and obstruction charges. But lying to investigators, or to a federal grand jury, strikes at the heart of the law-enforcement process. This happens to be the message that GOPers pounded over and over again when Clinton dissembled over Monica, so surely they take it seriously. Or is that only when a Democrat is president?
Hutchison likened the senior administration officials who might or might not be indicted to Martha Stewart, who was only charged with a cover-up (lying about insider trading is okay as long as you're not convicted of insider trading? Well, Martha did get two TV shows, even though one is tanking). The Texas senator also complained about "sort of a gotcha mentality in this country," which again, try as I might, I can't remember being a significant Republican complaint during the prosecutions of the Clinton years.
It instantly occurred to me that I might check what Sen. Hutchison had to say during the Lewinsky scandal. But in the blog world, somebody's already thought of your best idea five minutes ago. So before I could type in the Nexis search, I saw that Michael Crowley , on the New Republic's new group grope "The Plank," has this:
"Hmm . . . That's not the tune Hutchison was singing back when Bill Clinton was caught with his hands in the intern jar. Here's the February 13, 1999 Dallas Morning News:
" 'The principle of the rule of law-- equality under the law and a clear standard for perjury and obstruction of justice-- was the overriding issue in this impeachment,' said Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, who also voted 'guilty' on both counts."
HuffPost blogger Trey Ellis pounces on Kay Bailey:
"Senator Hutchinson's absurd utterance was another GOP trial balloon intent on trying to mute public outrage. Fox and the rest of the right-wing echo chamber has been beating this drum ever since 'lawyers close to the case,' (probably Rove and Libby's), leaked that indictments were coming not for the felony charge of outing an undercover agent but for lying about it to federal investigators. You have to at least hand it to these guys, when they're handed lemons, they try their damndest to make lemonade. 'Gee, there's not enough evidence to actually convict the highest-ranking members of the White House and the office of the Vice President of treason, just perjury and conspiracy. Is that so wrong?'
"The party that said they won the last election because of their stand on moral issues doesn't have a leg to stand on. Nothing shows how out of touch Republicans now are with the values of the American people."
Michelle Malkin takes exception to Hutchison's remarks:
"Um, has anyone suggested that special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald is a 'gotcha' kind of guy who would throw away his good reputation by pursuing 'technicalities' instead of 'real' crimes? I haven't heard anyone on our side suggest anything of the kind."
And yes, this must be an official strategy, as the New York Times reports that "allies of the White House suggested Sunday that they intended to pursue a strategy of attacking any criminal charges as a disagreement over legal technicalities or the product of an overzealous prosecutor."
Pat Fitzgerald, menace to society?
Wasn't this guy appointed by the Bush Justice Department after Ashcroft realized he was too conflicted to investigate Plamegate?
So the vice president of the United States did have some involvement:
"I. Lewis Libby Jr., Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, first learned about the C.I.A. officer at the heart of the leak investigation in a conversation with Mr. Cheney weeks before her identity became public in 2003, lawyers involved in the case said Monday," according to the NYT .
"Notes of the previously undisclosed conversation between Mr. Libby and Mr. Cheney on June 12, 2003, appear to differ from Mr. Libby's testimony to a federal grand jury that he initially learned about the C.I.A. officer, Valerie Wilson, from journalists, the lawyers said."
Nothing like preemptive leaking-- one of the great spectator sports.
Bill Kristol tries to elevate the argument against White House indictments (and anticipates the Clinton-comparison argument):
"Unless the perjury is clear-cut or the obstruction of justice willful and determined, we hope that the special prosecutor has the courage to end the inquiry without bringing indictments. It is fundamentally inappropriate to allow the criminal law to be used to resolve what is basically a policy and political dispute within the administration, or between the administration and its critics. One trusts that the special counsel will have the courage after conducting his exhaustive investigation to reject inappropriate criminal indictments if the evidence does not require them, no matter how much criticism he might then get from the liberal establishment that yearns to damage the Bush administration through the use of the criminal law.
"And I will go out on a limb to say this, based on the very limited information one can glean from press accounts: It seems to me quite possible-- dare I say probable?-- that no indictments would be the just and appropriate resolution to this inquiry.
"I say this knowing that administration officials may have engaged in behavior that is not altogether admirable. I say this knowing that legions of Clinton defenders will complain that conservatives were happy to support the impeachment of a president for lying under oath seven years ago. My response to the second charge is that if anyone lied under oath the way Bill Clinton did-- knowingly and purposefully in order to thwart a legitimate legal process, or if anyone engaged in an obstruction of justice, the way Bill Clinton did, then indictments would be proper. What is more, the Clinton White House mounted an extraordinary-- and successful-- political campaign against the office of the independent counsel and the person of Kenneth Starr. All the evidence suggests that the Bush White House has been fully cooperative with, even deferential to, the Fitzgerald investigation."
Except if a senior official doesn't tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to a grand jury-- and is charged with perjury-- that, by definition, is less than "fully cooperative."
I found this John Dickerson piece in Slate to be one of the most revealing about Scooter:
"It's surprising . . . to find Libby is at the center of a press scandal. The daily communications operation is not something he cares much about. Rove, by contrast, spends a portion of every day running his own press operation. He sends BlackBerry messages, forwards polling data, and argues his case to influential journalists. Libby flies at a higher altitude, talking mostly to marquee columnists and preferring longer and more in-depth conversations to the rat-a-tat-tat required by reporters on deadline.
"Libby does enjoy the intellectual cat-and-mouse game of longer form interviews, those who have worked with him say. He challenges basic assumptions and presses on a reporter's sloppy definitions. In my experience interviewing him, if a line of reasoning was in any way harmful to the administration or the vice president, it was sometimes impossible to get past the gorilla dust. His shimmy and shake sometimes got so bad, I wondered if he would even admit to working for the vice president. 'It's very lawyerly kind of amusement,' says a former aide.
"When the Cheneys hosted a party in February 2002 for the paperback publication of Libby's book, the guest list was not filled with workaday journalists, but with the elite from New York and Washington: Sally Quinn and Ben Bradlee, Leon Wieseltier and Maureen Dowd. In those early days after 9/11, it seemed like the relationship between the press and the media elite might turn out to be a fairly cozy one. The Bushies hated 'old Washington,' but as Libby and the vice president spoke from the landing at the bottom of the stairs, it seemed as if their half of the administration understood the quiet commerce between the ruling elite and the more permanent Washington establishment . . .
"Libby is fussy and precise with reporters, which is why friends and colleagues find it so hard to believe that he would have been involved in leaking Plame's identity, obstructing justice, or committing perjury.
"Libby was an exacting source for anyone who talked to him. After using a Libby quote, it was not unusual for reporters to receive a call from the vice president's press shop. Mr. Libby wanted to know why only a portion of his comment was used. 'He would prefer that if a reporter was going to quote him that it be an unedited transcript,' says one who worked closely with him. Other reporters were scolded if a Libby quote hidden under the attribution of 'senior administration official' was placed near sentences that he thought might identify him, even if no reasonable reader could come to such a conclusion. In other words, he's as careful as they come in Washington."
On the Miers front, Ryan Lizza marvels in the New Republic at how quickly the right has turned:
'That was fast. Last month, George W. Bush was the leader of the conservative movement. This month, he's a traitor . . .
"To be sure, the conservative abandonment of Bush isn't total. The right is divided. Some see the split as one of Washington eggheads versus the red-state masses. Others, noting that the debate over Miers is, at its core, about abortion, interpret the current anger as a revolt by social conservatives. But neither of these explanations quite captures what is going on. The conservative war over Miers is being fought by elites on both sides. The pro-Miers elites are just doing a better job of wrapping their cause in populism."
The WSJ's John Fund is feeling the heat for his Harriet reporting:
"In desperation, I took to going on radio talk shows in Texas and tongue-in-cheek offered to practice 'checkbook journalism' for the first time in my career. I said I would write a small check to the favorite charity of anyone who contacted me and could plausibly say that he has had a serious discussion about politics or judicial philosophy with Ms. Miers. So far it hasn't cost me a dime.
"For my trouble, I have been incorrectly attacked by allies of Ms. Miers, including some in the White House, for supposedly waving a checkbook seeking negative information about her. For the record, I made my offer in a jocular fashion, but to make a serious point. With the exception of President Bush, no one appears to know the nominee's judicial philosophy."
By the way, says Fund, "I believe it is almost inevitable that Ms. Miers will withdraw or be defeated."
In National Review, Danielle Crittenden offers a woman's perspective I haven't seen before:
"It doesn't involve cigars or a stained dress. But the nomination of Harriet Miers has created a woman problem on the Right every bit as big as that which faced feminists during Bill Clinton's presidency.
"For years, conservative women's groups such as the Independent Women's Forum have opposed feminist visions of female equality. We opposed affirmative action in the workplace, believing women had to be held to the same standards as men. We rallied against quotas, with the reasoning that if there were fewer female firefighters than male, this was because women didn't wish to take these jobs, and not because of discriminatory hiring practices by the fire department . . .
"We were disgusted with feminist groups when they stood by Bill Clinton through all his women troubles--when the National Organization for Women, for example, jettisoned all its previously stated principles on sexual harassment in order to retain political power.
"Now conservative women face a similar dilemma with Harriet: President Bush has asked us to stand by a woman who is unqualified for the Court because he knows what's in her 'heart'-- not in her head.
"We are asked to stand by her because, simply, she is a woman-- a 'pioneer,' a 'glass-ceiling breaker' -- even while other more qualified women were rejected for the position (and interestingly, rejected by Harriet herself, who headed the 'search' committee).
"That her pioneering had nothing to do with gathering expertise in constitutional law -- well, no biggie. We must swallow the idea that quotas and affirmative action are justifiable policies for the highest Court in the land.
"We are asked, further, to stand hypocritically by this decision as Patricia Ireland did when she stood by Bill Clinton--going so far as to sign letters with other 'accomplished' women saying we believe Harriet Miers is qualified for the Court. Whatever our principles, we must jettison them in order to retain political power."
Meanwhile, the Senate will not get a key part of the paper trail, as the Boston Globe reports:
"President Bush vowed yesterday not to release any White House memos by his Supreme Court nominee, Harriet E. Miers, provoking a standoff with senators from both parties who have demanded more information about her work in the White House.
"Senate leaders, who have asked that they be given a complete list of Miers's memos by tomorrow, vowed to continue their efforts to obtain at least some of Miers's White House work, arguing that such documents are especially important because Miers lacks a record as a judge or law professor.
"The emerging confrontation developed as criticism of the Miers nomination expanded with the launching of two new conservative websites aimed at forcing her withdrawal and raising money for ads against her."
The other woman under fire, Judy Miller, gives an interview to New York Post columnist Andrea Peyser :
" 'I'm not mad, I'm sad,' Judy told me from her home on Long Island. 'Isn't it sad that, after going to jail for 85 days for a principle, it's come to this?' . . .
"Judy will not take on her colleagues as personally as they've maligned her. 'Believe it or not, I can be pretty mild. I'm not going to sink to that level,' she said. 'But if someone says I'm a liar, I'm going to say I'm not a liar.'"
Of course, those "colleagues" include her boss, Bill Keller.
American Journalism Review Editor Rem Rieder says Keller's mea culpa "was both the right thing and the smart thing to do. Admitting that you've screwed up is never easy. It's exponentially harder when you're the boss at a revered (if flawed) American institution, and your mistakes have compounded that institution's problems.
"The Times has never been what you would call a particularly transparent newspaper. Its From the Editors note about the misguided Wen Ho Lee coverage was tortured, grudging. Its awfully late guilty plea about the paper's WMD fiasco didn't even mention Miller.
"But this time Keller was forthright, to the point. And there was none of the accepting-responsibility-but-not-blame that is so popular these days. No 'mistakes were made.' These, Keller said, were on me. That's the way a true leader acts."
Among the unhappy ex-Timesmen is David Halberstam :
" 'I think the paper has taken a terrible hit,' said David Halberstam, one of the Times' most respected alums, and a former Pulitzer Prize-winning writer. 'I think it is shocking that this young woman who has been a known identified land mine for a long time seems to have guaranteed loyalty to the office of the Vice President of the United States more than to The New York Times.' "
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2005/10/25/BL2005102500520.html
Phil - 26 Oct 2005 21:20 GMT >> >TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER >> >of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Come on, Phil! Enough with the denial! You brew fresh beer! Up to >SIXTY GALLONS a year! You drink your brew! Yeah, so?
>Where is the lie? You've been saying for years how drunk I am. How about that?
And then there's that oh-so-subtle homosexual slur you like to throw in.
Grow up, Mike.
Phil ====== visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.hbd.org/nychg
slim - 27 Oct 2005 20:48 GMT > >> >TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER > >> >of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > You've been saying for years how drunk I am. How about that? You ARE a drunk.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
"How many American casualties is Saddam worth? The answer is not very damned many." - Dick Cheney, Seattle, August 1992
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02
Phil - 28 Oct 2005 00:30 GMT >> >> >TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER >> >> >of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >You ARE a drunk. Uh-huh...
I've called you a liar, and I backed it up with facts.
I've called you a bigot, and I backed it up with facts.
You call me a drunk and you back it up with sh.t.
Grow up, old man!
Phil
====== visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website: http://www.hbd.org/nychg
Mimi Cohen - 28 Oct 2005 04:21 GMT >>>>>TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER >>>>>of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You ARE a drunk. Even if he were he could sober up, you'll still be a stupid sh.t
slim - 28 Oct 2005 17:16 GMT > >>>>>TRANSLATION: All that made me thirsty....time for ANOTHER > >>>>>of my freshly-made "Special Hom*Brew"....yummmmmm. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Even if he were he could sober up, you'll still be a stupid sh.t And every day, you wake up as fat, hairy and ugly as the day before.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
"How many American casualties is Saddam worth? The answer is not very damned many." - Dick Cheney, Seattle, August 1992
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02
Mimi Cohen - 20 Oct 2005 05:18 GMT >>>>>He's a liar and bigot who couches his anti-semitism in the disingenuous >>>>>phrase "anti-zionism". He's not an original we, Am Israel (chai!), are [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Phil needs someone like you to defend him? No one needs any defending from you, you're a pathetic loser who has to *TRY* and knock someone down to feel better.
> Pitiful. Yes, you are and pathetic, too
Nomen Nescio - 17 Oct 2005 01:10 GMT >> Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Susan Poor Susan Cohen ... scared to death she might one day be forced to stop sucking baby boys' cocks.
What's an old decrepid jewess to do when she can no longer suck cock?
Poor Susan.
slim - 19 Oct 2005 15:03 GMT > >> Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia. > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > What's an old decrepid jewess to do when she can no longer suck cock? I heard that she takes out her false teeth and gives "Gumjobs"!
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton - 16 Oct 2005 10:14 GMT Metzitzah b’peh was abandoned by all but fervently Orthodox mohels in the 1950s, when diseases including herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea were shown to be transmitted from mohel to baby.
As with Herpes Type 2 - the kind that results in genital blisters in adults - there is no cure for Type 1, only treatment for outbreaks. The virus can be passed from one person to another even when there are no symptoms, say medical experts.
: Here we have the Jewish version of Catholic priest pedophilia. : Sick, sick, sick! : : Organized religion - the eternal enemy of progress and sanity - the very : BANE OF HUMANITY! slim - 16 Oct 2005 23:22 GMT > Metzitzah bpeh was abandoned by all but fervently Orthodox mohels in > the 1950s, when diseases including herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea were [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > virus can be passed from one person to another even when there are no > symptoms, say medical experts. AND YET THE PRACTICE CONTINUES.
How nice you you folks to transmit disease to innocent infants while sucking thier cocks.
 Signature http://mindprod.com/politics/iraq.html
Donald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/
On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George Bush Washington Post, 11-19-02
flaviaR@verizon.net - 16 Oct 2005 07:46 GMT > http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539 Not one thing in here about the lie this bigot is trying to peddle.
Susan
LP - 16 Oct 2005 10:37 GMT >> http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539 > >Not one thing in here about the lie this bigot is trying to peddle. > >Susan When I first heard of this a few years ago, I assumed it was a sick-o anti-Semite making stuff up to deride Jewish people. I never seriously considered the alternative, that it might be true.
Cut It Off Another disgusting religious practice.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2125225/
Elroy Willis - 16 Oct 2005 12:39 GMT LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
>>> http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11539
>> Not one thing in here about the lie this bigot is trying to peddle.
> When I first heard of this a few years ago, I assumed it was a sick-o > anti-Semite making stuff up to deride Jewish people. I never seriously > considered the alternative, that it might be true. You can bet that if the same health-endangering ritual was being performed by some non-semitic circumcisionists, it would be outlawed in a New York minute, don't you think?
Personally, I wonder what percentage of people who call themselves Jewish actually support the practice. Is it only 5%, perhaps? 60%? 90%?
 Signature Elroy Willis www.elroysemporium.com
Barry - 16 Oct 2005 12:57 GMT > You can bet that if the same health-endangering ritual was being > performed by some non-semitic circumcisionists, it would be outlawed > in a New York minute, don't you think? It's not a semitic thing--it's a religious tolerance thing.
Is it in the bible that it should be done, or is it tradition or what? Can we define all forms of Judaism as the belief in the old testament to various extents, or can tradition shape Judaism? Maybe it technically wouldn't be against Judaism to prohibit that form of circumcision. It would be against SOME religion though, and those who practice it would probably say it's a Judaism thing whether it's biblical or not.
Elroy Willis - 16 Oct 2005 13:53 GMT Barry <barry@polisource.com> wrote in alt.atheism
>> You can bet that if the same health-endangering ritual was being >> performed by some non-semitic circumcisionists, it would be outlawed >> in a New York minute, don't you think?
> It's not a semitic thing--it's a religious tolerance thing.
> Is it in the bible that it should be done, or is it tradition or what? Obviously it's part of at least some sects of Judaism. When did it start, and what's the Biblical basis for it? If it started as some actual health-related benefit and there are currently better and safer ways to achieve that same health-benefit, then the old way or tradition should be abandoned. If it started as pure ritual with no actual health benefit, then it should be abandoned as well.
> Can we define all forms of Judaism as the belief in the old testament > to various extents, or can tradition shape Judaism? Maybe it > technically wouldn't be against Judaism to prohibit that form of > circumcision. It would be against SOME religion though, and those who > practice it would probably say it's a Judaism thing whether it's > biblical or not. You snipped my question about what % of Jews actually support the practice. If it's only a tiny minority, then what's the big deal with doing away with it? The majority is controlled by a few stubborn ultra-orthodox Jews who claim religious persecution when people tell them to quit doing it?
 Signature Elroy Willis www.elroysemporium.com
Mimi Cohen - 16 Oct 2005 18:59 GMT > Barry <barry@polisource.com> wrote in alt.atheism > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > ultra-orthodox Jews who claim religious persecution when people tell > them to quit doing it? Even *IF* (the biggest word in the English language) a majority of Jews do support the practice, what business is it of yours? Why do non-Jews feel they have the "right" to question us and our practices? Note I didn't say most of us do practice that little tiny part of the bris, only that if we did what business is it of yours.
Wunderkind - 16 Oct 2005 22:35 GMT >> Barry <barry@polisource.com> wrote in alt.atheism >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Note I didn't say most of us do practice that little tiny part of the > bris, only that if we did what business is it of yours. We goyim are rightly concerned because it's an inhumane practice like child labor and conscription of children into armed conflict.
WK
Mimi Cohen - 16 Oct 2005 23:54 GMT >>> Barry <barry@polisource.com> wrote in alt.atheism >>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > We goyim are rightly concerned because it's an inhumane practice like > child labor and conscription of children into armed conflict. HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha HAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAhaHAha
I estimated your IQ too high, it's more like 40
øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton - 17 Oct 2005 08:06 GMT It is not inhuman you f.cking idiot.
It is also performed MEDICALLY and sometimes because of NECESSITY!
: We goyim are rightly concerned because it's an inhumane practice like : child labor and conscription of children into armed conflict. : : WK slim - 17 Oct 2005 15:36 GMT > It is not inhuman you f.cking idiot. > > It is also performed MEDICALLY and sometimes because of NECESSITY! So as its practiced by Mohels, its not medically sound and most of the times the procedure is UNECESSARY!
Thanks RainMan.
 Sig |
|