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Medical Forum / General / General / September 2005

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me too drugs marketing darlings and little else

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fresh~horses - 08 Sep 2005 20:42 GMT
'New' drugs too often offer little new
Breakthrough drugs are rare. Most newcomers driving up costs are just
me-too marketing darlings

By ANDRE PICARD
Thursday, September 8, 2005 Page A25

In 2004, prescription-drug spending in Canada rose to a staggering
$18-billion a year (not including the $1.3-billion in prescription
drugs dispensed in hospitals). In 1985, prescription drug spending was
only $2.6-billion annually.

In the past decade alone, drug spending has doubled, to the point where
Canadians now spend more money on prescription drugs than on physician
services.

While the vertiginous rise in costs is worrisome, we can at least take
comfort that all this new spending is a sign of scientific progress, a
reflection of dramatic breakthroughs that are providing innovative new
lifesaving treatments. But is that true?

New research, published in the most recent edition of the British
Medical Journal, suggests otherwise

Dr. Steven Morgan and his colleagues at the Centre for Health Services
and Policy Research at the University of British Columbia decided to
examine the data and figure out exactly what is driving expenditure
growth.

The Canadian Patented Medicines Prices Review Board, which regulates
drug prices in the country (the principal reason our drugs costs are
far lower than in the U.S.), reviews all drugs before they get to the
market.

Between 1990 and 2003, the board reviewed 1,147 newly patented drugs.
As part of its procedure, the board distinguishes "breakthrough" drugs
from other medicines. It found that 68 drugs (a mere 5.9 per cent) met
the regulatory criterion of being a breakthrough drug -- defined as the
"first drug to treat effectively a particular illness or which provides
substantial improvement over existing drug products."

These breakthrough drugs include: filgrastim (sold under the brand name
Neupogen), used to treat a common side effect of chemotherapy;
donepezil hydrochloride (Aricept), used in Alzheimer's; infliximab
(Remicade), used in rheumatoid arthritis and Crohn's disease.

The board also classifies variants on the breakthroughs as innovative,
bringing the total to 142. If only 142 of the 1,147 new drugs actually
provide a substantial improvement, that means the other 1,005 don't --
they are merely variations of drugs that already exist.

"We called them 'me-too' drugs," Dr. Morgan said. The "me-too" drugs
are knock-off drugs by brand-name manufacturers (as opposed to copycat
drugs made by generic companies after patents expire) of their
competitors' successful products, and sometimes variations on their own
drugs.

The "me-too" drugs usually feature a small molecular variation but do
essentially the same thing. Still, they can be very profitable.

Take the cholesterol drug Lipitor, the world's best-selling drug, with
$10.8-billion (U.S.) in sales last year alone. It was actually the
fourth drug in its class out of the gate -- after Mevacor, Pravachol
and Zocor -- but slick and aggressive marketing made it the market
ruler.

Another classic example is the best-selling heartburn and ulcer
medication Nexium, which is a derivative of the older drug Prilosec.
While the two drugs do essentially the same thing, the reformulation
and repackaging allowed the manufacturer, AstraZeneca PLC, to prolong
its patent and hence its profits.

In research published in the BMJ, Dr. Morgan and his team focused on
prescription-drug spending in British Columbia -- which they were able
to do because of B.C. PharmaNet, a database into which all filled
prescriptions must, by law, be entered.

The researchers found that breakthrough drugs accounted for only 2 per
cent of use and 10 per cent of expenditures.

By contrast, "me too" drugs accounted for 44 per cent of use and 63 per
cent of expenditures in 2003. The balance, 54 per cent of use and 27
per cent of expenditures, was on so-called "vintage" drugs -- brand
name and generic drugs that entered the market before 1990, when the
board started classifying drugs on an annual basis.

The bottom line, according to Dr. Morgan, is that 80 per cent of the
increase in drug expenditures in B.C. between 1996 and 2003 was
"explained by the use of new, patented drug products that did not offer
substantial improvements on less expensive alternatives available
before 1990." There is no reason to believe the pattern is any
different elsewhere in Canada, or in the developed world for that
matter.

That the prescription and cost of "me too" drugs is rising far faster
than time-tested competitors should give us all pause. This tremendous
waste of money should also lead policy-makers to consider whether the
current method of regulating prescription drug prices and of
determining which drugs are placed on provincial formularies is
adequate.

Canada provides generous patent protection to brand-name drug
manufacturers, and some provinces (notably Quebec) provide generous tax
breaks to these companies. They do so on the understanding that these
companies not only create jobs, but that they innovate and ultimately
produce drugs that will save the health system money.

What we're getting now is a lot of the same-old, same-old, with
ever-increasing sticker prices. We're not getting a lot of
breakthroughs and innovation, let alone miracles and cures, for our
drug dollars.

http://www.globeandmail.ca

fairuse
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 08 Sep 2005 20:57 GMT
hmmm...I suppose this could go to auto
manufacturing...furniture...clothes...etc

how many are ACTUALLY unique??

they are ALL "me too"

but then...THAT is  a different issue..

yeah right

> 'New' drugs too often offer little new
> Breakthrough drugs are rare. Most newcomers driving up costs are just
[quoted text clipped - 111 lines]
>
> fairuse
tarra - 08 Sep 2005 21:06 GMT
healthcare costs too high in the US
Robert - 09 Sep 2005 06:53 GMT
> healthcare costs too high in the US

OK, we will save money when you it comes to you getting sick.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 08 Sep 2005 21:09 GMT
> hmmm...I suppose this could go to auto
> manufacturing...furniture...clothes...etc
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> yeah right

COMMENT:

I seem to remember trying this argument on Zee and getting the response
that me-too autos didn't count because drugs are a different
commodity-- one which saves lives.

Of course, that was before she got off on the OTHER socialist idea that
what's breaking the bank is really "life-style" drugs, of the sort that
don't save impoverished Africans. So THOSE really are more like autos.

Okay, let us stipulate the real economic pharm problem is really
"me-too lifestyle drugs." :) But how THESE differ from luxury
transportation, escapes me. Unless your doofus government is
constructed so that it's obligated to pay for them.

Then--- everybody waits in line for their BMW. Remind you of anyplace?

SBH
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 08 Sep 2005 21:13 GMT
>> hmmm...I suppose this could go to auto
>> manufacturing...furniture...clothes...etc
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> SBH

yep....couldn't resist jumping on that insane post...

"me too" is the way the marketing world runs...if not...we would have ONE
brand of car,,jeans,,soda..etc etc..

deciding ONLY drugs that are similar are the bad guys...is comparable to
calling taking out ovaries "castration"
fresh~horses - 08 Sep 2005 22:51 GMT
> > hmmm...I suppose this could go to auto
> > manufacturing...furniture...clothes...etc
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> that me-too autos didn't count because drugs are a different
> commodity-- one which saves lives.

You seem to remember wrong boyo. You can expect things like this to
happen now you're 50. You'll have other problems too.

Your erections won't be as high and hard as they were when you were 28.
I think we should do a limpectomy. And while we're in there...

Drugs are (in civilized western nations) healthcare not stockholders
share.

Zee

> Of course, that was before she got off on the OTHER socialist idea that
> what's breaking the bank is really "life-style" drugs, of the sort that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> SBH
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 09 Sep 2005 00:17 GMT
>> > hmmm...I suppose this could go to auto
>> > manufacturing...furniture...clothes...etc
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Zee

do you have citations to document that "civilized western nations" are in
the drug development and sales business purely for altruistic reasons?? that
they don't have to pay their bills,,salaries..etc etc

so it is OK for auto makers to worry about "stockholders share"...but not
that of drug makers??

what a dreamworld you live in

>> Of course, that was before she got off on the OTHER socialist idea that
>> what's breaking the bank is really "life-style" drugs, of the sort that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>> SBH
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 09 Sep 2005 01:25 GMT
> > > hmmm...I suppose this could go to auto
> > > manufacturing...furniture...clothes...etc
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> You seem to remember wrong boyo. You can expect things like this to
> happen now you're 50. You'll have other problems too.

COMMENT:

You've got me on this one. That argument was actually advanced by
somebody called MassiveBrainInjury@sleazyISP, who appeared in one
thread only to challenge some of my arguments, then disappeared off the
net forever. Sniff, I'll miss it.

>From MassiveBrainInjury:

(Note that I'm just dealing with the difference between your example
of SUV's and me-too drugs. There are many other differences such as:
no one needs an SUV; many people only avoid death, pain, and suffering
with the aid of drugs. A mis-allocation of resources in the auto
industry has trivial consequences: a mis-allocation of resources in
the drug industry means that people die or suffer needlessly.)

Mr. BrainInjury seemed to feel that all the advertising dollars spent
by car companies that come out of customers' pockets somehow magically
appear as novel improvements in SUVs and so on (so there really aren't
any "me-too SUVs anyway), but the same doesn't happen in the drug
industry. He seemed to think this was due to some difference in patent
law for drugs vs. auto improvements. I didn't agree with him (I think
misallocation of auto resources results in people suffering and dying
all the time), but as I say, he's no longer around to argue with.

So my apologies. It's hard to tell one anonymous poster with a bad
argument from another sometimes.

> Your erections won't be as high and hard as they were when you were 28.

Bah. I'll believe it when I see it.

> Drugs are (in civilized western nations) healthcare not stockholders
> share.

COMMENT:
LOL. In "civilized" nations like India and Brazil, when they removed
drug development from stockholders, it simply removed itself to other
countries. Following which India and Brazil reverted to
"uncivilization" again, in this aspect, in order to get the capital to
return (which is started to do). Not liking the consequences that
followed after it had fled. You see, India and Brazil wanted to trade
and sell things also, and India and Brazil did not enjoy being
internationally stolen from. Stealing is one thing, being stolen FROM
is entirely a different experience.

If "civlization" consists of robbing capitalists so that they decide no
longer to invest in your "needed industries," then many countries in
the last century have found that "high civilization" leads directly to
poverty. The entire Communist ("second") world, for example. And a lot
of the third world, too (Mexico's nationalized oil didn't help it much,
did it?). Few people, no matter how highly cultured, will stand for
simple confiscation of their hard work and money. They are strange that
way.

SBH
fresh~horses@despammed.com - 09 Sep 2005 02:39 GMT
> > > > hmmm...I suppose this could go to auto
> > > > manufacturing...furniture...clothes...etc
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> thread only to challenge some of my arguments, then disappeared off the
> net forever. Sniff, I'll miss it.

I know who he is...  ; )

> >From MassiveBrainInjury:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Bah. I'll believe it when I see it.

That would require a bit of a weight loss, n'est pas?

> > Drugs are (in civilized western nations) healthcare not stockholders
> > share.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> SBH

Well there is balance. Somewhere between India and the U.S. ... lies
Canada.

Zee
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 09 Sep 2005 21:30 GMT
> > > > > hmmm...I suppose this could go to auto
> > > > > manufacturing...furniture...clothes...etc
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> I know who he is...  ; )

I'll bet you do.

> > > Your erections won't be as high and hard as they were when you were 28.
> >
> > Bah. I'll believe it when I see it.
>
> That would require a bit of a weight loss, n'est pas?

LOL. You're thinking of Gohde or maybe Rush Limbaugh. Never confuse
somebody 20 lbs overweight with somebody 100 lbs overweight.

> > If "civlization" consists of robbing capitalists so that they decide no
> > longer to invest in your "needed industries," then many countries in
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Zee

Not any more. India is well on the way back to capitalism. Canada
edging into the unenviable title of most communistic country on Earth
right now, along with Cuba and North Korea (the only other countries
that don't allow a private medical care system).

I'm taking nominations for worse ones.  

SBH
fresh~horses - 09 Sep 2005 23:16 GMT
> > > > > > hmmm...I suppose this could go to auto
> > > > > > manufacturing...furniture...clothes...etc
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> LOL. You're thinking of Gohde or maybe Rush Limbaugh. Never confuse
> somebody 20 lbs overweight with somebody 100 lbs overweight.

I relent. Your erections are rock hard and looking back at you.

> > > If "civlization" consists of robbing capitalists so that they decide no
> > > longer to invest in your "needed industries," then many countries in
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> SBH

If that's your criteria I guess you're right. ... post hoc ergo proctor
hoc?
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Sep 2005 01:04 GMT
> > > Well there is balance. Somewhere between India and the U.S. ... lies
> > > Canada.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> If that's your criteria I guess you're right. ... post hoc ergo proctor
> hoc?

COMMENT:

That's *propter* hoc, evil bird of bad causal omens in epidemiology. It
sits on the palid bust of Pascal like Poe's raven, croaking
"Neverknow." And some real skeptics of causality like Hume would argue
that the Propter Hawk is the only reason for causality we ever real
have, and since it's a bad one, we're screwed.....

But if you're making an obscure bilingual pun about the historical
inevitability of managed care systems, you get a belated smile.

SBH
fresh~horses - 10 Sep 2005 01:06 GMT
> > > > Well there is balance. Somewhere between India and the U.S. ... lies
> > > > Canada.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> SBH

It'th weally harb ttho postht while eating a double fudge sundae.
Chris Malcolm - 11 Sep 2005 11:16 GMT
In sci.med.cardiology Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>> > > > COMMENT:
>> > > >
>> > > > I seem to remember trying this argument on Zee and getting the response
>> > > > that me-too autos didn't count because drugs are a different
>> > > > commodity-- one which saves lives.

>> > > You seem to remember wrong boyo. You can expect things like this to
>> > > happen now you're 50. You'll have other problems too.

>> > > Your erections won't be as high and hard as they were when you were 28.

>> > Bah. I'll believe it when I see it.

>> That would require a bit of a weight loss, n'est pas?

> LOL. You're thinking of Gohde or maybe Rush Limbaugh. Never confuse
> somebody 20 lbs overweight with somebody 100 lbs overweight.

AFAIK this loss of "high and hard" is not an inevitable concomitant of
age, it's just an average. Loss of "high and hard" suggests vascular,
innervation, or other problems, which are not uncommon but by no means
universal. There are plenty of men in their 60s who've only suffered a
reduction in frequency from the early years, i.e. a loss in recovery
time. I guess I lost about 50% in frequency from 18 to 35. From 35 to
63 I guess I've lost another 25% in frequency. The only men in their
60s I know who've lost more than frequency are men who have other
serious medical issues going as well, if you're prepared to consider
60lbs over your youthful weight as serious.

Since you ask :-) at 63 I'm 22lbs over my 20 year old weight, and
going down. I started getting worried a few years ago when my
apparently natural post-30 increase of a pound or two a year started
accelerating so that I started having to buy new trousers before the
old ones wore out. Turned out I'd been sliding down the insulin
resistance slippery slope into diabetes. Being pretty ruthless about
dumping food items and quantities which spike my blood sugar levels
has reversed the weight gain tendency into a slow loss. It's also
reversed most of the mild foot and hand neuropathy which had begun to
annoy me.

Signature

Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

MassiveBrainInjury@SleazyISP.edu - 09 Sep 2005 15:51 GMT
>> > COMMENT:

>> > I seem to remember trying this argument on Zee and getting the response
>> > that me-too autos didn't count because drugs are a different
>> > commodity-- one which saves lives.

>Fresh Horses wrote:

>> You seem to remember wrong boyo. You can expect things like this to
>> happen now you're 50. You'll have other problems too.

>COMMENT:

>You've got me on this one. That argument was actually advanced by
>somebody called MassiveBrainInjury@sleazyISP, who appeared in one
>thread only to challenge some of my arguments, then disappeared off the
>net forever. Sniff, I'll miss it.

Just because someone doesn't reply to your postings doesn't mean that
they've "disappeared off the net forever", nor should you take such
lack of reply as agreement, throwing in the towel, or failure to have
a battery of contra-arguments at the ready. In most cases the person
you're debating with simply has other, better things to do with their
time at that moment and/or can see this developing into a pointless
and endless exchange of firmly held beliefs (whether justified or
not).

I read sci.med daily but posting, especially on an involved topic such
as this, requires just too much time.

I can't resist <g>...

>If "civlization" consists of robbing capitalists so that they decide no
>longer to invest in your "needed industries," then many countries in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>simple confiscation of their hard work and money. They are strange that
>way.

Unfortunately it's rarely their "hard work" that provides them with
their capital. Most often it's luck and the payout is winnings in a
lottery only a tiny percentage of us are able (permitted) to buy a
ticket. The difficulty is in determining the part that's attributable
to hard work and that which is luck.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 09 Sep 2005 21:24 GMT
> >> > COMMENT:
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> and endless exchange of firmly held beliefs (whether justified or
> not).

COMMENT

This particular poster hasn't been seen on the nets before or since my
argument with them. And this particular poster reminded me so heavily
of you (and even drew a rare complement from you, once), that I
couldn't keep you straight. So for convencience sake, I'm just going to
assume that MassiveBrainInj IS Freshhorses. Until one of the other of
your comes up with something novel. Why not lump anonymous posters of
the same general view into convenient categories, and just treat them
all as one person. Give me a good reason why I shouldn't? So long as
you remain anonymous I'm arguing with point of view anyway, not a
person or personage. You don't deserve the minimal respect of being
treated as an individual, because you haven't earned it.

> I read sci.med daily but posting, especially on an involved topic such
> as this, requires just too much time.

Yeah, right.

> I can't resist <g>...
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> ticket. The difficulty is in determining the part that's attributable
> to hard work and that which is luck.

COMMENT:

Losers always blame their hard luck. Winners all know luck is a factor,
but not the main one.  If luck put Neil Armstrong on the moon, rather
than some other doofus, it's hard to tell from his biography.  I would
suggest reading some bios of sucessful people who accomplished
something important. You'll find they all caught a rare chance. But
were well-prepared to do it by a lifetime of preparation, when it came
(and often having missed many another chance along the way). I doubt
you'll find any exceptions to this rule, for chance favors the prepared
mind (and body).

And in any case, what's your point? It's always hard to determine what
part of ANY achievement is attributable to hard work and what to luck.
But this does not properly detract from the people on the platform at
the olympics. Pointing at them and saying "Lucky, lucky, lucky" is
just... unseemly.

As for people in the gutter, no doubt some of their lot is luck and
some of it is laziness and deserved punishment also. Can you apportion
it?  Usually not.  But my own experience is that it's *amazingly*
difficult to help people out of tough spots and deep holes. Minor
charity works [the Jews even have a concept for it: "tikkun olam" which
means repairing the world, but has the connotation of minor
repairs]---- but for some reason that once bothered me for years, major
charity almost always does not. Whenever I tried it, I got nowhere.
People went right back to where they were, as though pulled by rubber
bands.

Eventually, I finally got it. A large part of the time, it is actually
the case that character is fate, and THAT is why the big save rarely
works. I know that's not politically correct. But nevertheless, I think
it is true.

SBH
MassiveBrainInjury@SleazyISP.edu - 10 Sep 2005 06:25 GMT
>> >> > COMMENT:

>> >> > I seem to remember trying this argument on Zee and getting the response
>> >> > that me-too autos didn't count because drugs are a different
>> >> > commodity-- one which saves lives.

>> >Fresh Horses wrote:

>> >> You seem to remember wrong boyo. You can expect things like this to
>> >> happen now you're 50. You'll have other problems too.

>> >COMMENT:

>> >You've got me on this one. That argument was actually advanced by
>> >somebody called MassiveBrainInjury@sleazyISP, who appeared in one
>> >thread only to challenge some of my arguments, then disappeared off the
>> >net forever. Sniff, I'll miss it.

>> Just because someone doesn't reply to your postings doesn't mean that
>> they've "disappeared off the net forever", nor should you take such
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> and endless exchange of firmly held beliefs (whether justified or
>> not).

>COMMENT

>This particular poster hasn't been seen on the nets before or since my
>argument with them. And this particular poster reminded me so heavily
>of you (and even drew a rare complement from you, once), that I
>couldn't keep you straight.

I had difficulty keeping who you're talking about here, straight. I
think "particular poster" is me (Massive...) and "you" is Fresh
Horses.

> So for convencience sake, I'm just going to
>assume that MassiveBrainInj IS Freshhorses.

Rather inconvenient I would think given that they're not the same
person. If you look at the headers (maybe you can't see the headers in
google? -- time to get a real newsreader or get someone independent to
read them to you) you'll see that Fresh... posts like you via google
using a web browser as the vehicle. I (Massive...) OTOH post from
verizon (see the path and the Abuse address) using Forte Agent 2.0.
Now if you're really paranoid you could imagine a scenario where
Fresh... has Agent on her machine just to be able to fake up a
non-web-based client and uses verizon (are they ISP's in Canada?)
instead of google to fool you.

You might also analyze the style of writing. For ex: Fresh...
frequently uses smileys. I have never used smileys in either my
Massive... incarnation or any others. But then again Fresh... could be
absolutely brilliant in creating a new persona using a totally
different style.

> Until one of the other of
>your comes up with something novel. Why not lump anonymous posters of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>person or personage. You don't deserve the minimal respect of being
>treated as an individual, because you haven't earned it.

We are all anonymous to some degree on usenet. "Robert" is one of the
probably 30 million Americans of the same name; I doubt Archimedes
Plutonium" is his real name; "Bill" like "Robert" is pretty common;
and "bae" at some Toronto edu address is unlikely to be her real name.

If this upsets you, too bad. That's life.

>> I read sci.med daily but posting, especially on an involved topic such
>> as this, requires just too much time.

>Yeah, right.

>> I can't resist <g>...

>> >If "civlization" consists of robbing capitalists so that they decide no
>> >longer to invest in your "needed industries," then many countries in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> >simple confiscation of their hard work and money. They are strange that
>> >way.

>> Unfortunately it's rarely their "hard work" that provides them with
>> their capital. Most often it's luck and the payout is winnings in a
>> lottery only a tiny percentage of us are able (permitted) to buy a
>> ticket. The difficulty is in determining the part that's attributable
>> to hard work and that which is luck.

>COMMENT:

>Losers always blame their hard luck. Winners all know luck is a factor,
>but not the main one.  If luck put Neil Armstrong on the moon, rather
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>you'll find any exceptions to this rule, for chance favors the prepared
>mind (and body).

>And in any case, what's your point? It's always hard to determine what
>part of ANY achievement is attributable to hard work and what to luck.
>But this does not properly detract from the people on the platform at
>the olympics. Pointing at them and saying "Lucky, lucky, lucky" is
>just... unseemly.

It's not unseemly pointing that worries me but rather the unmerited
allocation of resources to people based not on their "hard work" alone
but rather a huge proportion of luck and a tiny part of "hard work".
So let's not have any shedding of tears over the removal of the
unjustified portion of their gains.

And BTW the best method to sort out the luck from the hard work at
least for the entrepreneur is the capitalist system. That's the
capitalist, free market, competitive system with easy in and easy out
of the business and willing, non-anxious, and knowledgeable buyers and
sellers. The ideal is rarely if ever achieved but even to arrive at
some close proximity major government involvement is usually necessary
(keep out monopolies, make the seller provide true and accurate
information, ensure competition, etc). We do a really poor job at
this.

As to the Olympics, the correct comparison here is to the people who
came 5th, 10th, 19th, etc. They all worked (trained) hard, probably
with little difference between them, the person coming first just
having that slightest edge because of an accident of birth (Lance
Armstrong's aorta, for ex.) or some less identifiable and perhaps
unrepeatable event (previous meal, slightly different workout the day
before, etc), IOW luck. Should the winner be rewarded with the
accolades we habitually shower upon them and the 19th receive nothing?
Or should the 19th receive the same as the victor as "payment" for his
hard work? Oooh what a horrifying thought! Or maybe we should provide
the victor with a small bribe to use his luck for his and our good and
to provide an incentive for the 19th (and all the others) not to slack
off. That sounds to me like a good compromise and in fact is what
happens in a well-functioning capitalist system but the bribes are
small. As soon as one entrepreneur starts to make a super-profit,
others will immediately enter the industry charging slightly less so
the first will be obliged to reduce his price.The price will always
hover just around equilibrium.
 
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Sep 2005 23:55 GMT
Harris:
> >And in any case, what's your point? It's always hard to determine what
> >part of ANY achievement is attributable to hard work and what to luck.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> So let's not have any shedding of tears over the removal of the
> unjustified portion of their gains.

COMMENT:

I suppose with you and the People's Committee of Commissars to
determine which portions of their gains are "unjustified" and therefore
ill-gotten and not worth shedding tears over, as you confiscate (er,
remove) them?

My problem with this, is that you're not omniscient. So who do you
proposed to make any of this "true merit" system work?

Second, I have the feeling that if one WAS omniscient, one could go
back through the chain of events leading to your own ownership of just
about anything you have, and identify multiple banch points of fate
depending on "luck" or connecions or quantum mechanics or whatever,
which resulting in your coming out on top, instead of with the short
end of the stick. You mention Lance Armstrong's aorta-- we can extend
that to neural connections in your brian and genetic defects you don't
have.

So where does that leave us?  I think it leaves us in a world without
justification for judging the merit of anybody or the ownership of
ANYTHING. To which all I can say is: we start on you and your stuff
first, buddy.

> And BTW the best method to sort out the luck from the hard work at
> least for the entrepreneur is the capitalist system. That's the
> capitalist, free market, competitive system with easy in and easy out
> of the business and willing, non-anxious, and knowledgeable buyers and
> sellers.

COMMENT:
I think you're describing the buying of medical insurance, yes.

And in any case, what makes you think so?  The capitalist system is
subject to all the same "judgmental" problems as regards luck vs
justice in sucesss, as any other. There may be situations where the
actors are ignorant, anxious, and unwilling, but they often result from
luck or from previous failure to do all the virtuous things when there
was more time. The man in the ER with the abscessed tooth may well be
in a bad spot. But he may well also have spent his last 5 years buying
fancy car equipment and plasma TVs and cigarettes, instead of boring
stuff like dental insurance and/or regular prophylactic dental care,
and going for same. And maybe he doesn't brush or floss, either. How
are we gunna tell?

But really good or bad luck's enough to bust this situation either way.
Some people have teeth so good they never have problems no matter what
they do with them. Others have teeth so bad that no program of
prevention will keep them from great pain and loss. Most of the rest of
us are in between. That's the story of poker hands. That's the story of
life.

You gunna correct poker's winner's pots for the good or bad hands they
got dealt?  You have read Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron"?  It's on the
net, I think.

> The ideal is rarely if ever achieved but even to arrive at
> some close proximity major government involvement is usually necessary
> (keep out monopolies, make the seller provide true and accurate
> information, ensure competition, etc). We do a really poor job at
> this.

COMMENT:
We do a poor job of this because it's a utopian ideal and impossible
even to approach. You're arguing toward a very old and outdated version
of economics with perfectly informed players. I always have to laugh at
this idea of government somebody ensuring perfect capitalism by pushing
us to toward a world of certainty with perfectly informed consumers, as
you describe. The problem is this is NOT really a capitalistic world,
because imperfect information is what provides most of the risk in
capitalism, don't you know, and without risk, there ARE no
"entrepeneurs." Or not any worthy of the name.

> As to the Olympics, the correct comparison here is to the people who
> came 5th, 10th, 19th, etc. They all worked (trained) hard, probably
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> happens in a well-functioning capitalist system but the bribes are
> small.

COMMENT:
No, it's maybe what happens in your own idealization of the "well
functioning capitalist system," which you no doubt assume in some
socialist utopian way, would work well EVEN if the bribes were small.
(It wouldn't). In the real system, the bribes are NOT small. They are
huge, and are huge because we live in such a world of uncertainty that
they MUST be. If they weren't huge, we'd have the Third World. In fact,
the reason most of third world IS the third world, is that they haven't
been able to free up their capital to play in the game of uncertain
risks and big rewards, so they have access to the big winnings. I
recommend _The Mystery of Capital_ by Hernando de Soto:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465016146/103-2207296-1006254?v=glance

> As soon as one entrepreneur starts to make a super-profit,
> others will immediately enter the industry charging slightly less so
> the first will be obliged to reduce his price.The price will always
> hover just around equilibrium.

COMMENT:

In your ideal economist dreams, maybe. In the real world, no. And not
just because we forgot to take away Bill Gates' presumed "monopoly"
(whatever that is).

In the real world, an entrepeneur makes money as soon as he starts to
supply something reasonably valuable to somebody who has a limited
amount of information and limited judgement, but does have the
opportunity to try it until something better comes along, and both are
satisfied. And this relationship works until something disrupts it,
because the buyer really doesn't have all that time to spend to become
the perfect consumer with all the time and knowledge and lack of
pressure that you're assuming Utopia would provide for him. And if in
the meantime the entrepeneur is able to multiply his earnings into more
production fast enough that he stays ahead of the general learning
curve in quality-improvement, and also ahead of the general "buzz" in
taste and fashion (which serves as substitute for deep knowledge in
consummers), he or she can make a lot of money. But that's no more, and
no less, luck than winning at poker.

SBH
SJ Doc - 09 Sep 2005 13:48 GMT
>'New' drugs too often offer little new
>Breakthrough drugs are rare. Most newcomers driving up
>costs are just me-too marketing darlings

The reader might take note of the fact that Canada isn't
what one would call a hotbed of drug development.  
Overwhelmingly, Canadians "free ride" on the investments
made by multinational corporations who put their research
funding into national jurisdictions where their intellectual
property rights (including their right to keep their profits, if
they can make 'em) are better preserved.  The Canadian
government isn't what one would call morally committed
to the preservation of individual rights.  Try to send a
copy of *Unintended Consequences* to a friend living
in Toronto and you'll see what I mean.

Beyond that, however, there is the fact that even in the
markets where the greatest potential profits are to be
made - these United States still being chief among them
- the costs imposed by regulatory exigencies are ex-
tremely high.  Anyone familiar with the history of drug
development in the modern era - from Massengill's Elixir
Sulfanilamide (http://www.fda.gov/oc/history/elixir.html)
to the present date - knows that the lurch and shudder
of the political regulators from one crisis to another have
raised the cost of doing business in this economic sector
without really having done much to improve product
safety.  

Not surprisingly, the drug manufacturers have found that
"me-too" drug products are easier to get through govern-
ment agencies' sclerotic regulatory processes.  Truly inno-
vative ("breakthrough") medications are generally - indeed,
almost by definition - those with novel mechanisms of action
(MoA), and in each such case there is considerable risk
for the developer.  Prior to the thalidomide episode that
gave Senator Kefauver the golden opportunity to punish
and extort the pharmaceutical industry back in the '60s,
there was merely the reasonable requirement that a pharma
manufacturer must demonstrate the safety of his/her product.

After Kefauver-Harris was enacted, however - in the trail
of a product *safety* mishap involving thalidomide as a
teratogen in the first trimester of human pregnancy - such
manufacturers were required to prove the *efficacy* of their
new products in specific treatment areas involving specific
patient populations - a much more costly and prolonged
process than the thorough scientific establishment of safety
parameters.  

Does that make much sense to you?  No?  Well, hell.  
You're not Senator Kefauver or any of his successors in
the U.S. Congress, are you?  

At any rede, it's a helluva lot easier to demonstrate drug
efficacy (as well as safety) when your product is a "me-too"
molecule that merely refines an existing therapeutic approach
to a well-studied and well-understood disease process.  

Pharmaceuticals companies being run by ex-Business majors
(you remember? those guys whose drunken bodies used to
litter the floors in the dormitories every Sunday morning
while you were on your way to the college library to study?),
it's natural that they should shy away from truly novel and
innovative approaches to any problem.  Only the fact that
you can occasionally catch the Pointy-Haired Boss in a
state of pliable inebriation accounts for the fact that research
guys and clinicians manage to turn Big Pharma investment into
areas other than Elbonian mud refining.  

Regrettably, that doesn't happen often.  

But "me-too" drugs have their advantages.  I've got patients
who are taking Nexium (esomeprazole, AstraZeneca) right
now after having tried every other combination of H2 blocker
and proton pump inhibitor available.  Only the S-isomer of
omeprazole - a thorough and abject "me-too" product -
works for these patients.  What's the alternative?  A good old
reliable Bilroth-II surgical procedure?  No, thanks!  Nexium
for years and years and years is cheaper - and a helluva lot
less dangerous.  

By the same token, amoxicillin is merely a "me-too" for
ampicillin, which is simply a "me-too" for penicillin, which
was - in all justice - considered nothing more than a ho-hum
unnecessary follow-on for sulfanilamide.  And who needed
ibuprofen when we had aspirin, for crying out loud?  True,
you needed to push the dosing of aspirin to the point at
which the patient complains of an incessant ringing in the
ears (no fooling; that's actually how we used to dose aspirin
for rheumatoid arthritis back in the days before we had
alternative "me-too" drugs to replace it), but aspirin is
just as good an anti-inflammatory as ibuprofen or naproxen
sodium or piroxicam or any of those other fancy non-salicylate
NSAIDs.  And don't get me started on the "me-too" salicylates
like choline magnesium trisalicylate, salsalate, etc.   So they're
more convenient for the patient, and safer, and easier to dose
and monitor.  So what?  They're "me-too" drugs.  

Well, you get the point, don't you?  What unthinking idiots
call "me-too" drugs are commonly therapeutic advances down
previously proven pathways.  They tend very strongly to be  
lower-risk steps in medical progress (though always bear in
mind the fact that Massengill's Elixir Sulfanilamide was a "me-
too" product as well, compounding an established active prin-
ciple with a ghodawful excipient).  

For the ex-Business majors, they're more of a "sure thing" in
a costly process severely strangulated by feeble-minded govern-
ment bureaucrats and politicians.

For the FDA bureaucrats (underfunded, undermanned, and
replete with cement-headed Civil Service types), the "me-too"
drugs offer the comforting thought that most of the risks and
all of the efficacy criteria are well-established before you ever
open the truckload of paperwork the manufacturer is required
to send down to Rockville.    

For the practicing physicians, there's the benefit of established
drug MoA with a "me-too" medication, coupled with clinical studies
that - hopefully - show patient-centered benefits such as better
adverse events profiles, less frequent dosing, less bothersome
potential for drug/drug interactions, and so forth.  A "me-too"
drug is a helluva lot easier to incorporate in your practice than
a totally novel medication, I assure you.  

Snotty critiques of the pharma industry for marketing "me-too"
drugs are borne chiefly of willful stupidity on the part of the
simple sons of bitches who write them.  Such dimwits know
nothing of the political regulatory environment that makes such
a profound impact upon the economics of pharmaceutical research
and development, and even less about the practice of medicine.

I'd say that it was perfectly okay to ignore these jackasses if
it weren't so much fun to get them sputtering and screaming and
jumping up and down in impotent rage.  

----------------------------
Hygiene is the corruption of medicine by morality.  It is
impossible to find a hygienist who does not debase his
theory of the healthful with a theory of the virtuous.  
The whole hygienic art, indeed, resolves itself into an
ethical exhortation.  This brings it, at the end, into
diametrical conflict with medicine proper.  The true aim
of medicine is not to make men virtuous; it is to safeguard
and rescue them from the consequences of their vices.  The
physician does not preach repentence; he offers absolution.

       -- H.L. Mencken, The Smart Set, May 1919
fresh~horses - 09 Sep 2005 15:45 GMT
> >'New' drugs too often offer little new
> >Breakthrough drugs are rare. Most newcomers driving up
> >costs are just me-too marketing darlings

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://healthyskepticism.org/adwatch/au/2003/nexium.php

   The Nexium advertisement appeals to our desire for power.

   Appeals to desires are common in advertising because they work.[1]
These appeals work despite the evidence that we normally do not give
them much thoughtful attention. Lack of attention can allow these
appeals to sneak into the brain under the radar of critical
appraisal.[2]

Unfair comparisons

   The Nexium advertisement claims that "Nexium 40mg offers greater
healing power that either omeprazole or lansoprazole". This claim is
based on two unfair comparisons.

One of the comparisons is esomeprazole (Nexium) 40mg vs omeprazole
(Losec, Acimax, Probitor) 20mg. (The dose of omeprazole is only
disclosed in the fine print.)

Omeprazole is a proton pump inhibitor that has been used for years to
treat peptic ulcers and gastro-oesophageal reflux disease by reducing
gastric acid levels.

Omeprazole 20mg contains about 10mg of S-omeprazole and 10mg of its
mirror molecule: R-omeprazole. Both S and R-omeprazole are converted to
the same active drug that reduces production of gastric acid by proton
pumps. R-omeprazole is absorbed into the body less than S-omeprazole
and removed faster, so it may be less effective than S-omeprazole.

Esomeprazole is just a different spelling for S-omeprazole. "Es" =
"S-".  AstraZeneca are using a different spelling that makes it
less obvious that esomeprazole is just half of their old drug
omeprazole (Losec).

It is no surprise that 40mg S-omeprazole in Nexium 40mg is more
effective than the 10mg of S-omeprazole plus 10mg of R-omeprazole.
However a larger dose of omeprazole would be just as "powerful" as
esomeprazole (Nexium) 40mg.

The other comparison is esomeprazole (Nexium) 40mg vs lansoprazole
(Zoton) 30mg.  (Again the dose of lansoprazole is only disclosed in the
fine print.)

The graph below suggests that the difference in the percentage healed
at 8 week is too small to be clinically significant.[3]  Patients are
unlikely to be able to detect a worthwhile difference in relief of
symptoms.

Chart

Missing  comparisons

The advertisement does not compare Nexium with other alternatives. The
alternatives that should be considered include other proton pump
inhibitors, other drugs and non-drug therapies.

   The only trial comparing esomeprazole with pantoprazole that we are
aware of was published in September 2003 so it is too recent to be
mentioned in the advertisement.[4]  That trial suggests that
esomeprazole 40mg is unlikely to have any clinically significant
advantages over pantoprazole 40mg.  This is despite evidence that
pantoprazole 40mg is not significantly better than omeprazole 20mg.[5]
Both can be true because there is little difference between proton pump
inhibitors especially at higher doses.  This is because of the law of
diminishing returns as shown in the graph below.

Chart

   Many people with gastro-oesophageal reflux disease can be
adequately treated long term with lifestyle changes including elevation
of the head of the bed plus antacids or H2 antagonists such as
ranitidine (Multiple brands).[6]

    Many people with peptic ulcers are better treated with H. pylori
bacteria eradication therapy.

General Recommendation

There is no proven clinically significant efficacy or safety advantage
of Nexium over fair comparison doses of other proton pump inhibitors.

When a proton pump inhibitor is appropriate, use whichever is the
cheapest at the time in the lowest dose that controls the symptoms.

Current Recommendation for Australia

   The table below includes all proton pump inhibitors listed in the
Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme Yellow Book effective from 1 August 2003
in order of the cost of a pack of 30 tablets or capsules.

rabeprazole 10 mg
Pariet
$ 27.60

omeprazole 10 mg
Losec
$ 29.55

pantoprazole 20 mg
Somac
$ 30.43

lansoprazole 15 mg
Zoton
$ 30.98

esomeprazole 20 mg
Nexium
$ 46.19

omeprazole 20 mg
Acimax, Probitor
$ 46.19

rabeprazole 20 mg
Pariet
$ 46.19

omeprazole 20 mg
Losec
$ 47.69

pantoprazole 40 mg
Somac
$ 48.50

lansoprazole 30 mg
Zoton
$ 49.36

esomeprazole 40mg
Nexium
$ 75.26

As doses increase prices increase but differences in efficacy diminish.

The best value approach may be:

·        Commence therapy with lifestyle changes plus esomeprazole
20mg (Nexium). This will quickly control symptoms for most patients.[7]

·        If symptoms are not controlled try pantoprazole 40mg (Somac)
before using esomeprazole 40mg (Nexium) as a last resort.

·        If symptoms are controlled then try lifestyle measures alone
or add a H2 antagonist such as ranitidine (Multiple brands) or
rabeprazole 10mg (Pariet) for maintenance.

Further reading

Do Single Stereoisomer Drugs Provide Value?
Therapeutics Letter, issue 45, June - September 2002
http://www.ti.ubc.ca/pages/letter45.htm

Jankowski J, Jones R, Delaney B, Dent J.
10-minute consultation: Gastro-oesophageal reflux disease.
BMJ. 2002 Oct 26;325(7370):945.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/325/7370/945
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 09 Sep 2005 17:41 GMT
SJ Doc wrote:
> On 8 Sep 2005 12:42:05 -0700, "fresh~horses" wrote:
>
> >'New' drugs too often offer little new
> >Breakthrough drugs are rare. Most newcomers driving up
> >costs are just me-too marketing darlings

again..."not a doctor Zee" picks and choose a very short segment to argue
with a REAL doctor in practice who relates that REAL paients DO react better
with Nexium...Zee refuses to admit or even know the pharmokinetics that the
"one little molecule" obviously makes it a med's efficiacy

again...from a CAnadian who badmouths the USA's drug research and
development..whilst living in a land that spends NADA of its own funds to do
ANY R and D...than bitches when said drug companies price their products so
they can pay for HER countries sucking at their tit..

ZEE...give it up...arguing with a practicing doctor?? who DO you think you
are?? other than being adept at cut and paste

a medical wannabe
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://healthyskepticism.org/adwatch/au/2003/nexium.php

   The Nexium advertisement appeals to our desire for power.

   Appeals to desires are common in advertising because they work.[1]
These appeals work despite the evidence that we normally do not give
them much thoughtful attention. Lack of attention can allow these
appeals to sneak into the brain under the radar of critical
appraisal.[2]

Unfair comparisons

   The Nexium advertisement claims that "Nexium 40mg offers greater
healing power that either omeprazole or lansoprazole". This claim is
based on two unfair comparisons.

One of the comparisons is esomeprazole (Nexium) 40mg vs omeprazole
(Losec, Acimax, Probitor) 20mg. (The dose of omeprazole is only
disclosed in the fine print.)

Omeprazole is a proton pump inhibitor that has been used for years to
treat peptic ulcers and gastro-oesophageal reflux disease by reducing
gastric acid levels.

Omeprazole 20mg contains about 10mg of S-omeprazole and 10mg of its
mirror molecule: R-omeprazole. Both S and R-omeprazole are converted to
the same active drug that reduces production of gastric acid by proton
pumps. R-omeprazole is absorbed into the body less than S-omeprazole
and removed faster, so it may be less effective than S-omeprazole.

Esomeprazole is just a different spelling for S-omeprazole. "Es" =
"S-".  AstraZeneca are using a different spelling that makes it
less obvious that esomeprazole is just half of their old drug
omeprazole (Losec).

It is no surprise that 40mg S-omeprazole in Nexium 40mg is more
effective than the 10mg of S-omeprazole plus 10mg of R-omeprazole.
However a larger dose of omeprazole would be just as "powerful" as
esomeprazole (Nexium) 40mg.

The other comparison is esomeprazole (Nexium) 40mg vs lansoprazole
(Zoton) 30mg.  (Again the dose of lansoprazole is only disclosed in the
fine print.)

The graph below suggests that the difference in the percentage healed
at 8 week is too small to be clinically significant.[3]  Patients are
unlikely to be able to detect a worthwhile difference in relief of
symptoms.

Chart

Missing  comparisons

The advertisement does not compare Nexium with other alternatives. The
alternatives that should be considered include other proton pump
inhibitors, other drugs and non-drug therapies.

   The only trial comparing esomeprazole with pantoprazole that we are
aware of was published in September 2003 so it is too recent to be
mentioned in the advertisement.[4]  That trial suggests that
esomeprazole 40mg is unlikely to have any clinically significant
advantages over pantoprazole 40mg.  This is despite evidence that
pantoprazole 40mg is not significantly better than omeprazole 20mg.[5]
Both can be true because there is little difference between proton pump
inhibitors especially at higher doses.  This is because of the law of
diminishing returns as shown in the graph below.

Chart

   Many people with gastro-oesophageal reflux disease can be
adequately treated long term with lifestyle changes including elevation
of the head of the bed plus antacids or H2 antagonists such as
ranitidine (Multiple brands).[6]

    Many people with peptic ulcers are better treated with H. pylori
bacteria eradication therapy.

General Recommendation

There is no proven clinically significant efficacy or safety advantage
of Nexium over fair comparison doses of other proton pump inhibitors.

When a proton pump inhibitor is appropriate, use whichever is the
cheapest at the time in the lowest dose that controls the symptoms.

Current Recommendation for Australia

   The table below includes all proton pump inhibitors listed in the
Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme Yellow Book effective from 1 August 2003
in order of the cost of a pack of 30 tablets or capsules.

rabeprazole 10 mg
Pariet
$ 27.60

omeprazole 10 mg
Losec
$ 29.55

pantoprazole 20 mg
Somac
$ 30.43

lansoprazole 15 mg
Zoton
$ 30.98

esomeprazole 20 mg
Nexium
$ 46.19

omeprazole 20 mg
Acimax, Probitor
$ 46.19

rabeprazole 20 mg
Pariet
$ 46.19

omeprazole 20 mg
Losec
$ 47.69

pantoprazole 40 mg
Somac
$ 48.50

lansoprazole 30 mg
Zoton
$ 49.36

esomeprazole 40mg
Nexium
$ 75.26

As doses increase prices increase but differences in efficacy diminish.

The best value approach may be:

·        Commence therapy with lifestyle changes plus esomeprazole
20mg (Nexium). This will quickly control symptoms for most patients.[7]

·        If symptoms are not controlled try pantoprazole 40mg (Somac)
before using esomeprazole 40mg (Nexium) as a last resort.

·        If symptoms are controlled then try lifestyle measures alone
or add a H2 antagonist such as ranitidine (Multiple brands) or
rabeprazole 10mg (Pariet) for maintenance.

Further reading

Do Single Stereoisomer Drugs Provide Value?
Therapeutics Letter, issue 45, June - September 2002
http://www.ti.ubc.ca/pages/letter45.htm

Jankowski J, Jones R, Delaney B, Dent J.
10-minute consultation: Gastro-oesophageal reflux disease.
BMJ. 2002 Oct 26;325(7370):945.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/325/7370/945
Robert - 09 Sep 2005 18:30 GMT
Zee has never treated one single patient. All she does is talk about
something she has no idea or experience in.
SJ Doc - 09 Sep 2005 18:59 GMT
>Zee has never treated one single patient. All she does is talk
>about something she has no idea or experience in.

Oh.  Thanks for the information.  I got a look-in on this
thread via talk.politics.medicine and I don't recall having
read this poster previously.  

I *do* agree that the allocation of big bucks to marketing
in the pharma industry is goddam grotesque, but principally
because I can view the whole process as something of an
outsider.  The primary care practitioner (PCP) isn't exactly
what you'd call a high-profile target for Big Pharma promo-
tional spending.  

At the same time, I guess I'm something of an insider, too.  
Three of my classmates in medical school had been pharma
sales representatives - "detail men" - before deciding to get
into a profession where you can tell perfect strangers to take
off their clothes and they pay you for the privilege.  These guys
used to regale us with stories about their encounters with the
doctors in their sales territories, and I got an earful about how
greedily some of my senior colleagues would behave.  

The doctor who knows a bit about the pharma industry can
"play" the marketing measures to his patients' advantage.  
Product samples are remarkably useful when you're trying
to run a short course of trial therapy to determine tolerability
and/or efficacy, and a lot of my indigent patients wouldn't be
on pharmacotherapy at all if I didn't have samples or "com-
passionate use" stock bottles of medications I'd wheedled out
of the sales guys.  There's other stuff besides the silly junk (the
pens and pads and coffee mugs) that the reps hand out, in-
cluding some pretty good patient assessment and education
materials to make it easier for a guy to function effectively.  

Besides, the coffee mugs are pretty cool.  I've got a collection
that includes a mug for just about every medicinal product with-
drawn from the U.S. market because of drug safety problems
over the past twenty-odd years.  Embarrasses the hell out of
some of the sales reps, let me tell ya.  

-----------------
The Ten Commandments display was removed from the Alabama
Supreme Court building, but here was a good reason for the move. 

You can't post "Thou Shalt Not Steal" in a building full of lawyers
and politicians without creating a hostile work environment.
Robert - 09 Sep 2005 20:43 GMT
> >Zee has never treated one single patient. All she does is talk
> >about something she has no idea or experience in.
>
> Oh.  Thanks for the information.  I got a look-in on this
> thread via talk.politics.medicine and I don't recall having
> read this poster previously.

She posts under different handles and erases her posts from google search
engines. She also distances  herself from her own
posts stating they don't always reflect her views.
She basically is against everything you have said or stated above.

> I *do* agree that the allocation of big bucks to marketing
> in the pharma industry is goddam grotesque, but principally
> because I can view the whole process as something of an
> outsider.  The primary care practitioner (PCP) isn't exactly
> what you'd call a high-profile target for Big Pharma promo-
> tional spending.

She blames the PCP and most doctors and scientists as money grabbing
unconcienable liars and cheats under control of big money pharm.

> At the same time, I guess I'm something of an insider, too.
> Three of my classmates in medical school had been pharma
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> doctors in their sales territories, and I got an earful about how
> greedily some of my senior colleagues would behave.

To her that is the norm and not the exception. She believes in government
control over doctors and all heathcare professionals as most Canadians have
with their system.

> The doctor who knows a bit about the pharma industry can
> "play" the marketing measures to his patients' advantage.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> cluding some pretty good patient assessment and education
> materials to make it easier for a guy to function effectively.

Exactly. She finds that appalling and then brags about how cheap the drugs
are in Canada.

> Besides, the coffee mugs are pretty cool.  I've got a collection
> that includes a mug for just about every medicinal product with-
> drawn from the U.S. market because of drug safety problems
> over the past twenty-odd years.  Embarrasses the hell out of
> some of the sales reps, let me tell ya.

I have gotten a few mugs from my doctor also, a few pins and notepads. To
posters here that means you are under the pockets of the pharm reps.
They claim that anyone not agreeing with their views are pharm reps who post
here in the thousands.

> -----------------
> The Ten Commandments display was removed from the Alabama
> Supreme Court building, but here was a good reason for the move.
>
> You can't post "Thou Shalt Not Steal" in a building full of lawyers
> and politicians without creating a hostile work environment.

They call the politicians running the Canadian Healthcare system,
"Honourable" to remind them of that fact before having someone wait 3 years
for heart surgery.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 09 Sep 2005 20:54 GMT
> >'New' drugs too often offer little new
> >Breakthrough drugs are rare. Most newcomers driving up
[quoted text clipped - 132 lines]
> it weren't so much fun to get them sputtering and screaming and
> jumping up and down in impotent rage.

COMMENT:

SJ!! Bud!  My alter ego, whoever you are. I had the feeling your
message was written by ME years ago, or maybe last night in a fit of
global amnesia. The only way I could tell for sure it wasn't, was that
I never knew elixer sulfonilamide was made by the SE Massengill Co.

(Trivia: a Google shows that this company was indeed founded by Dr.
Samuel Evans Massengill of Tennessee, a name now best known known for
certain feminine hygeine products the doctor invented, even though the
company itself was bought out by Bristol in the 70's).

Anyway, as for drug development reality: Tell it, brother. Preach it.
You KNOW they GOT to hear it sometime, cause the spirit cannot be
denied. Umm-huh.

Amen.

SBH
fresh~horses - 10 Sep 2005 00:45 GMT
> > >'New' drugs too often offer little new
> > >Breakthrough drugs are rare. Most newcomers driving up
[quoted text clipped - 152 lines]
>
> SBH

~~~~~~~~~~~

>From Colleen Fuller to SBH and SJ: on the issue of me-too drugs:

Andre Picard does a great service to Canadians with
his latest article
describing "me-too" drugs that don't offer any new
benefits over cheaper
existing medicines.

People who use insulin are familiar with this routine
in spades. In
1982, Canadian-made insulin cost between $6 and $8 a
vial. That year a
new type of genetically engineered insulin came on to
the market at $18
a vial, even though it provided no advantages over the
many existing
insulins that came from beef and pork. Then in 1995,
most of the cheaper
insulins which had been on the market for decades were
withdrawn
altogether. The next year, another new insulin was
introduced at $30 a
vial even though it didn't provide any significant
advantages over
existing cheaper products - cheaper now being the
genetically-engineered
brands at $19 to $23 a vial. Studies of the latest
insulin to hit the
market, Lantus, have not shown any significant
advantages over existing
brands, but it costs $60 a vial, thus setting a new
and much higher bar
on the cost of insulin. There is no end in sight to
these spiralling
insulin prices.

This is great for the bottom line of insulin
manufacturers, but
diabetics who need insulin are paying way too much for
something that,
at best, offers nothing more than older and much
cheaper brands.
Canadians Banting and Best, who discovered insulin,
gave the insulin
patent to the Canadian people so this vital
life-saving medicine would
be available at cost. This fine legacy is being buried
by me-too
insulins and, I fear, do-nothing governments.

Colleen Fuller
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 Sep 2005 03:27 GMT
> >From Colleen Fuller to SBH and SJ: on the issue of me-too drugs:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> many existing
> insulins that came from beef and pork.

COMMENT:

Except an insulin less likely to provoke anti-insulin antibodies, and
one free of the quality control problems of producing a product from
dead animals.

Then in 1995,
> most of the cheaper
> insulins which had been on the market for decades were
> withdrawn
> altogether.

COMMENT:
Too generalized a statement to really argue with. Who did this and
where?  Beef insulin is no longer available due to mad cow disease.
Pork insulin is available just about everywhere, including Canada
(where about 200 Canadian still us it). This gets down to issues of why
you can't find vinyl record players or 8-track tapes anymore. The world
moves on.

The next year, another new insulin was
> introduced at $30 a
> vial even though it didn't provide any significant
> advantages over
> existing cheaper products - cheaper now being the
> genetically-engineered
> brands at $19 to $23 a vial.

COMMENT:
Too few specifics to comment on.

Studies of the latest
> insulin to hit the
> market, Lantus, have not shown any significant
> advantages over existing
> brands, but it costs $60 a vial, thus setting a new
> and much higher bar
> on the cost of insulin.

COMMENT:
There's finally a specific. There are medical trials showing advantages
of the ultra-long acting insulin Lantus (glargine). Where's your
evidence it has no place in treatment of any population of diabetics?
I'll be glad to post an abstract on the "pro" end. You do the same.

There is no end in sight to
> these spiralling
> insulin prices.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Colleen Fuller

Comment:

Garbled history. Which is not surprising since it's a complex one. I
would recommend Michael Bliss' book THE DISCOVERY OF INSULIN (1982, U
Chicago Press) which I've read, and I suggest Colleen Fuller read also.

Without going into boring detail: Insulin was discovered by a lot of
people, including Collip, who got short shrift.  The first Canadian
patent was actually in Banting and Collip's names, since they were the
only non-physicians on the Canadian team (it being through more seemly
not to have physicians making patent money).  Dr. Best was added later
only because patents can be invalidated in not including all
discoverers.

THAT patent actually got rejected on the American side since the
American Zuelzer in 1912 had already patented a glucose-lowering
pancreatic extract. Which is all there were, even in 1922 when the
Canadians were trying to patent-- the structure not being known. The
Canadians and Lilly in America had to go to some lengths to convince
the patent office they had some new process for extraction.

As for giving the patent to the "Canadian people," that's nonsense,
unless the Canadian people all hang out at U Toronto. Collip and Best
and Banting worked at the U. of Toronto, and they turned over patent
control to the University board of regents, which continued to use
licensing proceeds for university projects and purposes. A similar
thing would happen today, albeit with a lot more paperwork.

SBH

Intern Med J. 2005 Sep;35(9):536-42.

Glargine is superior to neutral protamine Hagedorn for improving
glycated
haemoglobin and fasting blood glucose levels during intensive insulin
therapy*.

Fulcher GR, Gilbert RE, Yue DK.

Department of Diabetes, Endocrinology and Metabolism, Royal North Shore
Hospital, New South Wales, Australia.

Aim: To compare glycaemic control and symptomatic hypoglycaemia rates
with
glargine versus neutral protamine Hagedorn (NPH) in poorly controlled
type 1 diabetes patients. Methods: Patients (n = 125) received
preprandial insulin lispro and either glargine (n = 62) or NPH (n = 63)
at bedtime for 30 weeks in a multicentre, randomized, single-blind (a
blinded investigator made titration decisions) study. Basal insulin
dosage was titrated to achieve fasting blood glucose (FBG) values <5.5
mmol/L. Results: Baseline characteristics were similar for the two
groups (mean diabetes duration 17.5 +/- 10.1 years) except mean
glycated haemoglobin (HbA(1c)), which was lower in the glargine versus
NPH group (9.2 +/- 1.1% vs 9.7 +/- 1.3%; P < 0.02). At end-point, mean
HbA(1c) was 8.3 versus 9.1% for the glargine versus NPH groups.
Adjusted least-squares mean
(LSM) change from baseline was -1.04 versus -0.51%, a significant
treatment
benefit of 0.53% for HbA(1c) in favour of glargine (P < 0.01). Mean
baseline FBG were similar for the glargine and NPH groups (11.2 vs 11.4
mmol/L). The means for end-point FBG were 7.9 versus 9.0 mmol/L.
Adjusted LSM change from baseline was -3.46 versus -2.34 mmol/L, with a
significant difference of 1.12 mmol/L in favour of glargine (P < 0.05).
There were similar total numbers of daytime mild, moderate or severe
hypoglycaemia episodes in the two treatment arms. However,
significantly fewer moderate or severe nocturnal hypoglycaemic episodes
were observed in the glargine group (P = 0.04 and P = 0.02).
Conclusion: Glargine is superior to NPH for improving HbA(1c) and FBG
levels during intensive insulin therapy in patients with type 1
diabetes, and is associated with less severe octurnal hypoglycaemia.
(Intern Med J 2005; 35: 536-542).

PMID: 16105155 [PubMed - in process]
fresh~horses - 11 Sep 2005 05:54 GMT
Dr. Harris and readers: Colleen will not comment further. Zee

Andre Picard does a great service to Canadians with
> his latest article
> describing "me-too" drugs that don't offer any new
> benefits over cheaper
> existing medicines.

> People who use insulin are familiar with this routine
> in spades. In
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> many existing
> insulins that came from beef and pork.

Steve Harris:
COMMENT:
Except an insulin less likely to provoke anti-insulin
antibodies, and
one free of the quality control problems of producing
a product from
dead animals.

Colleen Fuller:
There are higher insulin antibody levels in beef as compared to pork.
There are not significant differences between pork insulin and
recombinant DNA human insulin.

A 2002 Cochrane review of the evidence on recombinant human insulin
(Richter B, Neises G. 'Human' insulin versus animal insulin in people
with diabetes mellitus (Cochrane Review). In: The Cochrane Library,
Issue 3, 2002. Oxford: Update Software) found that "At the time of
introduction of human insulin, marketing strategies suggested that the
lower immunogenicity of human insulin and the anticipated decline in
antibody titres would offer a clinical advantage for insulin-treated
patients". This appears to have been a "theoretical" advantage,
not a real one.

The studies on immunogenicity of human and animal insulin were
difficult to compare because of the different assays for insulin
antibodies. Overall, depending on the duration of follow-up, a
decline in insulin antibodies was observed following transfer from
animal to human insulin. This tended to level out in studies of six
months and longer follow-up, rarely demonstrating significant
differences at the end of the trial. Beef insulin was associated with
higher insulin antibody levels than pork insulin.

"Human" insulin is not less likely to produce antibodies than pork
insulin. We know why those who use pork or beef insulin produce
antibodies, but it's not clear to me why antibodies result from the
use of an insulin whose molecular structure is identical to the human
insulin molecule. Some (Lewontin, eg.) have suggested that the folding
and unfolding action that is used to produce the human insulin molecule
is responsible for some of allergies and other problems associated with
the resulting insulin.

Cochrane reviewers have pointed out that "the importance of insulin
antibodies from a clinical point of view was never fully understood,
apart from rare cases of insulin resistance and insulin allergy." The
estimate I'm familiar with pegged the occurrence of animal insulin
allergies at roughly 3% in the 1970s, and it was this group that
"human" insulin was initially targeted at. Some people have argued
that the slower action of animal insulin is due to antibodies, but I
haven't seen the evidence pertaining to this. In any event, if this
is true then the few differences in antibody titres between pork and
"human" insulin would not explain the significant differences in
action and duration of the two species.

Regarding insulin resistance, Eli Lilly, in its 1998 patent documents
for biosynthetic ultralente insulin stated that the best type of
insulin to achieve "a low, steady release of insulin into the
bloodstream without any noticeable insulin peak...is commercially
available beef Ultralente insulin" (I believe this was the first
animal insulin the company pulled from the market). By comparison, its
rDNA brand of ultralente insulin required two injections a day, and
peaked at about 12 hours, "a phenomena [which] not only diminishes
the ability of this product to counteract the steady basal glucose
output of the liver, it also results in hyperinsulinemia which itself
may lead to macrovascular complications". Whatever the situation now,
the company announced on July 6th it is pulling Humulin Ultralente (See
USPTO 5,534,488, July 9, 1996.)

The advantages of "human" insulin continue to be the minds of those
who advocate its use as if they have some personal stake in the
question (and some do). Prescribers need factual information, but more
importantly are those who use insulin and who need objective
information so they can make an informed choice regarding insulin
therapy. Unfortunately, they often don't get objective or even
correct information from their physicians.

Then in 1995,
> most of the cheaper
> insulins which had been on the market for decades were
> withdrawn
> altogether.

Steve Harris:
COMMENT:
Too generalized a statement to really argue with. Who
did this and where?

Colleen Fuller:
Novo Nordisk withdrew all of its animal insulins from the Canadian
market, and most from the US market, in 1995. Novo distributed a broad
range of beef, beef/pork and pork insulins (Toronto, NPH, Ultralente,
Semilente and Lente, among others and in all three formulations)
through Connaught. Eli Lilly withdrew all of its beef insulin from the
North American market in 1998. On July 6, it announced it was pulling
the remaining two types of Iletin II pork insulin.

Steve Harris:
Beef insulin is no longer available due to mad
cow disease.

Colleen Fuller:
Without discounting concerns about BSE, most physicians incorrectly
believe that beef insulin was withdrawn because of BSE (or antibodies).
The fact is that beef insulin was withdrawn by manufacturers purely as
a marketing strategy. Regulators did not require its withdrawal, and it
continues to be marketed in the United Kingdom (where 20% of diabetics
use animal-sourced insulin), Australia, India and many, many other
countries, along with pork insulin. It is safe, effective and
affordable. Many people prefer it because it generally has a flatter
curve than "human" insulin types with the possible exception of
glargine (Lantus), although many who have used glargine would dispute
that.

Steve Harris:
Pork insulin is available just about everywhere,
including Canada (where about 200 Canadian still us it).

Colleen Fuller:
IMS data suggest there are roughly 700 people using Iletin II NPH and
Regular insulin in Canada. Eli Lilly estimates about 400 people. On
July 6, Eli Lilly announced it is pulling the remaining pork insulin
from the North American market. Wockhardt, based in India, has applied
for a license to market its own brand of pork insulin in Canada, but
not in the United States. They have been assisted by Eli Lilly, whose
own Canadian supplies will be exhausted by April '06.

Steve Harris:
This gets down to issues of why
you can't find vinyl record players or 8-track tapes
anymore. The world moves on.

Colleen Fuller:
The biggest impediment to those who try to manage their blood sugars
effectively is doctors who are ignorant of the issues and evidence
regarding animal-sourced insulin. In 1995, Humulin was among the top 10
drugs with reported serious adverse side effects in the United States.
Humalog has racked up an astonishing number of reported serious ADRs in
Canada. Although these are suspected links only, there has been no
attempt in Canada to determine causality. (I recognize that this would
be difficult; however it's impossible to say how difficult since the
national regulator hasn't ventured to find out.). The point is that
the experiences patients have had are very real, and the attitude of
many physicians is appalling. These patients are accused of being
nothing more than some kind of modern-day Luddites, when in fact
what's happened to them is that they were using the wrong species of
insulin. There are too many irresponsible doctors to whom these often
desperate patients turn - and this hard-hearted and ignorant attitude
is what they have to deal with. It's really unbelievable.

It's also unbelievable that there are some doctors who compare a
vital life-saving medicine like animal insulin to vinyl records and
8-track tapes. They shouldn't be treating patients in the real world
of drug safety and effectiveness. Two national regulators - Canada
and the United Kingdom - have concluded that there is a subset of
diabetes patients who require animal insulin. After many years of
persistent work by insulin-dependent diabetics, a Health Canada
representative stated before the Parliamentary Standing Committee on
Health, that "there very clearly are Canadians who need animal-sourced
insulins to manage their diabetes. We have no doubt about that at
all...The current science [sic] knowledge does not really enable us to
understand why the synthetic insulin or the human insulins do not work
as well for some people as do the animal insulins, but clearly that is
the case..." (Evidence before the Parliamentary Standing Committee on
Health, presented by Julia Hill, Director General of the Biologics and
Genetic Therapies Directorate, Feb 2003) In July, the MHRA acknowledged
that some people must have guaranteed access to natural (beef and pork)
insulin. The Australian government has recognized this situation with
its approval of Wockhardt's beef (but not pork) insulin, which is
sold there by Aventis. In India a battle is raging to protect
animal-sourced insulins and domestic control over the insulin market.
In Europe many diabetics are fighting to maintain access to pork
insulin.

Of all the comments and ignorance exhibited by this physician, his
dismissal of the actual and sometimes traumatic experiences diabetics
have had is very disturbing. Patients who experience serious adverse
side effects have to fight for recognition without the support and
advocacy of doctors who claim to have the patient's best interest at
heart. No wonder so many patients feel demoralised and humiliated.

The next year, another new insulin was
> introduced at $30 a
> vial even though it didn't provide any significant
> advantages over
> existing cheaper products - cheaper now being the
> genetically-engineered
> brands at $19 to $23 a vial.

Steve Harris:
COMMENT:
Too few specifics to comment on.

Colleen Fuller:
Humalog was introduced in Canada at $30 a vial. According to the Human
Drug Advisory Panel, PMPRB, Eli Lilly argued this higher price was
justified because Humalog "provides substantial improvement over
existing therapies, and should be classified as a category 2 new
medicine." Category 2 applies to breakthrough drugs. HDAP disagreed,
and Humalog was classed as a Category 3 drug, meaning "it provides
moderate, little or no therapeutic advantage over comparable existing
drug products".

Based on the Category 3 ruling, Lilly had to roll back the price of
Humalog to $23 in 1997.

I don't always agree with the regulator, but in this case I would
trust its judgement over that of SBH and Eli Lilly. I was unable, in a
200-word letter to the editor, to get in to all the details regarding
the price of Humalog insulin, but my point was that the price of new
insulins is increasing the cost to the consumer despite that they offer
"moderate, little or no therapeutic advantage over comparable
existing drug products" which are lower-priced". Those products, by
1997, were overwhelmingly recombinant DNA insulin types which,
according to the Cochrane review cited above, "was introduced into
the market without scientific proof of advantage over existing purified
animal insulins, especially porcine insulin".

Studies of the latest
> insulin to hit the
> market, Lantus, have not shown any significant
> advantages over existing
> brands, but it costs $60 a vial, thus setting a new
> and much higher bar
> on the cost of insulin.

COMMENT:
There's finally a specific. There are medical trials
showing advantages
of the ultra-long acting insulin Lantus (glargine).
Where's your
evidence it has no place in treatment of any
population of diabetics?
I'll be glad to post an abstract on the "pro" end. You
do the same.

Colleen Fuller:
You've grossly misquoted me. I didn't state "Lantus has no place
in the treatment of any population of diabetics". I said it offers no
significant advantages over existing insulins.

Here is the scientific review of Lantus insulin by the Patented
Medicine Prices Review Board (Canada):

Scientific Review:
Lantus is a new active substance and the PMPRB's Human Drug Advisory
Panel (HDAP) recommended that Lantus be reviewed as a category 3 new
medicine (provides moderate, little or no therapeutic advantage over
comparable medicines).

The HDAP identified Novolin GE NPH, Humulin N (insulin NPH), Novolin GE
Lente, Humulin L (insulin lente), Novolin GE Ultralente, Humulin U
(insulin ultralente), and continuous subcutaneous insulin infusion
(CSII) using Humalog (insulin lispro). All of these drug products are
indicated and used in the treatment of diabetes.

The PMPRB´s Guidelines provide that the dosage recommended for
comparison purposes will normally not be higher than the maximum of the
usual recommended dosage. The recommended comparable dosage regimens
for Lantus and the comparators are based on their respective product
monographs and supported by clinical literature.

"Insulin glargine seems to have a clear advantage compared with NPH
once daily, but the total number of patients with nocturnal
hypoglycaemia was very similar when glargine was compared with NPH
twice daily" Table 15: Type I studies, hypoglycaemic episodes -
entire phase: titration plus treatment phases.

The review of the evidence by Britain's Health Technology Assessment
concluded that "The evidence suggests that, compared with NPH
insulin, insulin glargine is effective in reducing the number of
nocturnal hypoglycaemic episodes, especially when compared with
once-daily [but not twice-daily] NPH. There appears to be no
improvement in long-term glycaemic control and therefore insulin
glargine is unlikely to reduce the incidence of the long-term
microvascular and cardiovascular complications of diabetes Further
research into insulin glargine is needed that addresses the quality of
life issues associated with fear of hypoglycaemia and also the economic
impact of balance of HbA1c control and incidence of hypoglycaemia
achieved in practice. Studies examining the economic evidence on
insulin glargine should be published." (Warren, E., et.al.,
Systematic review and economic evaluation of a long-acting insulin
anologue, insulin glargine. Health Technology Assessment 2004; Vol 8;
No. 4.

Here is the conclusion of the Canadian Committee on Health Technology
Assessment (CCHOTA):

Insulin glargine is a treatment option for patients with type 1 DM. The
evidence supporting its use over NPH insulin is limited, so the use of
the drug versus alternatives may be limited to patient physician
preferences."

Trials involving patients with type 2 DM indicate no improvement in
glycemic control and a lower incidence of nocturnal hypoglycemia. A
phase IV evaluation will be conducted to assess whether insulin
glargine is involved in the development of retinopathy."

I notice the doctor didn't include a conflict of interest declaration
with the summary below.

There is no end in sight to

> these spiralling
> insulin prices.

> This is great for the bottom line of insulin
> manufacturers, but
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> by me-too
> insulins and, I fear, do-nothing governments.

> Colleen Fuller

Steve Harris:
Comment:
Garbled history. Which is not surprising since it's a
complex one.

Colleen Fuller:
It's not a garbled history, it's shorthand, which is not surprising
since this was a letter to the editor of a newspaper that counsels
writers to stick to a 200-word count. The point is that the patents on
insulin were maintained in the public domain (in Canada, universities
are public institutions) to serve a public interest and to protect the
clinical integrity (strength and purity) of the product. No amount of
cynicism can overshadow the fact that the co-discoverers of insulin
believed that private gain from the discovery of medicine was
unethical.

Steve Harris:
I would recommend Michael Bliss' book THE DISCOVERY OF
INSULIN (1982, U Chicago Press) which I've read, and I suggest Colleen
Fuller read also.

Colleen Fuller:
I am quite familiar with Bliss' work and with the history of the
discovery and initial marketing of insulin. I would recommend that the
doctor visit the insulin archives of the U of T Library if he hasn't
already done so (http://link.library.utoronto.ca/insulin/).

Far from being boring, the history of insulin is fascinating. In
Canada, insulin royalties supported the first research support
infrastructure for Canadian universities and is very much part of our
history. The responsibility for the distribution of insulin remained in
the public domain until the privatization of Connaught by the Mulroney
government, whose policies also brought about the end of the production
of insulin by Canadians.

Steve Harris:
Without going into boring detail: Insulin was
discovered by a lot of
people, including Collip, who got short shrift.  The
first Canadian
patent was actually in Banting and Collip's names,
since they were the
only non-physicians on the Canadian team (it being
through more seemly
not to have physicians making patent money).  Dr. Best
was added later
only because patents can be invalidated in not
including all
discoverers.

THAT patent actually got rejected on the American side
since the
American Zuelzer in 1912 had already patented a
glucose-lowering
pancreatic extract. Which is all there were, even in
1922 when the
Canadians were trying to patent-- the structure not
being known. The
Canadians and Lilly in America had to go to some
lengths to convince
the patent office they had some new process for
extraction.

As for giving the patent to the "Canadian people,"
that's nonsense,
unless the Canadian people all hang out at U Toronto.
Collip and Best
and Banting worked at the U. of Toronto, and they
turned over patent
control to the University board of regents, which
continued to use
licensing proceeds for university projects and
purposes. A similar
thing would happen today, albeit with a lot more
paperwork.

Colleen Fuller:
The patent was assigned to the U of T specifically to prevent
commercial exploitation of the discovery and basically to safeguard the
manufacture of insulin from less than ethical snake oil salesmen. This
was explicitly acknowledged by the university and best articulated by
JR Macleod shortly after the discovery was announced. He stated that
purpose of the insulin patent in Canada was to ensure that the
manufacture of insulin was done "in a form sufficiently pure for
clinical use". He said that the complexities of the procedure made
this necessary. MacLeod, like his (warring) colleagues felt that
patenting medicines was "contrary to the traditional principles of
the medical profession to restrict the production or supply of any
substance that may be used for the alleviation of human suffering and
is contrary to its ethical code for any physician to derive financial
benefit from the sale of such substances, [therefore] it was decided
that the patents should be assigned to the Board of Governors of the
University of Toronto to be held by them for the sole purpose of
preventing any other person from taking out a similar patent which
might restrict the preparation of insulin'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~

Intern Med J. 2005 Sep;35(9):536-42.

Glargine is superior to neutral protamine Hagedorn for
improving
glycated
haemoglobin and fasting blood glucose levels during
intensive insulin
therapy*.

Fulcher GR, Gilbert RE, Yue DK.

Department of Diabetes, Endocrinology and Metabolism,
Royal North Shore
Hospital, New South Wales, Australia.

Aim: To compare glycaemic control and symptomatic
hypoglycaemia rates
with
glargine versus neutral protamine Hagedorn (NPH) in
poorly controlled
type 1 diabetes patients. Methods: Patients (n = 125)
received
preprandial insulin lispro and either glargine (n 62) or NPH (n = 63)
at bedtime for 30 weeks in a multicentre, randomized,
single-blind (a
blinded investigator made titration decisions) study.
Basal insulin
dosage was titrated to achieve fasting blood glucose
(FBG) values <5.5
mmol/L. Results: Baseline characteristics were similar
for the two
groups (mean diabetes duration 17.5 +/- 10.1 years)
except mean
glycated haemoglobin (HbA(1c)), which was lower in the
glargine versus
NPH group (9.2 +/- 1.1% vs 9.7 +/- 1.3%; P < 0.02). At
end-point, mean
HbA(1c) was 8.3 versus 9.1% for the glargine versus
NPH groups.
Adjusted least-squares mean
(LSM) change from baseline was -1.04 versus -0.51%, a
significant
treatment
benefit of 0.53% for HbA(1c) in favour of glargine (P
< 0.01). Mean
baseline FBG were similar for the glargine and NPH
groups (11.2 vs 11.4
mmol/L). The means for end-point FBG were 7.9 versus
9.0 mmol/L.
Adjusted LSM change from baseline was -3.46 versus
-2.34 mmol/L, with a
significant difference of 1.12 mmol/L in favour of
glargine (P < 0.05).
There were similar total numbers of daytime mild,
moderate or severe
hypoglycaemia episodes in the two treatment arms.
However,
significantly fewer moderate or severe nocturnal
hypoglycaemic episodes
were observed in the glargine group (P = 0.04 and P 0.02).
Conclusion: Glargine is superior to NPH for improving
HbA(1c) and FBG
levels during intensive insulin therapy in patients
with type 1
diabetes, and is associated with less severe octurnal
hypoglycaemia.
(Intern Med J 2005; 35: 536-542).

PMID: 16105155 [PubMed - in process]
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 12 Sep 2005 00:14 GMT
> Colleen Fuller:
> There are higher insulin antibody levels in beef as compared to pork.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> patients". This appears to have been a "theoretical" advantage,
> not a real one.

COMMENT:

The Cochrane Review's point of view is that the human insulins were
introduced into the market without adequate long term safety and
efficacy testing. That's surely a matter of taste. But the review's
suggestion that it was somehow mere "marketting strategies"[!] that
"suggested that the lower immunogenicity of human insulin and the
anticipated decline in
antibody titres would offer a clinical advantage for insulin-treated
patients," is nonsense!

At the time, no endocrinologist (involved in marketing or not) guessed
otherwise (if you want to argue that, find me the cite). Nor did the
Cochrane Review suggest (before the fact) that it might not be the
case. This result took EVERYBODY by surprise: industry, academia,
practising physicians and patients, alike.

It's simply the usual socialist boloney For Cochrane to blame this odd
outcome and failure to se the future, in retrospect, on some capitalist
mechanism.  Where were the non capitalists of the time, in opposition?

Recall the days of yore. I was there. The mid 1980's were a time when
at least 2 injectable protein products (Growth hormone and Hep B
vaccine) HAD to be switched to genetically engineered products without
a long and leisurely safety and efficacy comparison trials, because the
previous products had come from human sources that were no longer
possible to use, on very short notice (in once case due to CJD, and in
the other, due to HIV in donor pools). This was NOT a time when any
serious voices were suggesting that the project to replace animal
insulin be treated any differently, even though it (in theory and in
retrospect) could have been done.

> "Human" insulin is not less likely to produce antibodies than pork
> insulin. We know why those who use pork or beef insulin produce
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> is responsible for some of allergies and other problems associated with
> the resulting insulin.

COMMENT:
Yup. In other words, it's still a big mystery, and weird one. The idea
that its future posiblity, 20 years ago, might have been rationally
used to uphold the development of a multi-billion dollar industry, is a
completely out-to-lunch idea. We'd still be waiting for human insulin.
And probably criticized by all the people who complain we still produce
flu vaccine in chicken eggs.

> Colleen Fuller:
> Novo Nordisk withdrew all of its animal insulins from the Canadian
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> The fact is that beef insulin was withdrawn by manufacturers purely as
> a marketing strategy.

COMMENT:
"Marketing strategy" meaning anticipation of much stricter regulation
on injectables made from cow innards (the BSE prion is MUCH tougher
than the insulin molecule--- you tell ME how they're going to make sure
you get the insulin and not the prion.)

But you've got me. I didn't think anybody could still be that stupid as
to continue to produce beef insulin in this day and age, but
apparently, there are some people who still are. But let me put it on
record here and now, WHY and think it's stupid, and predict that more
trouble is to come from it. And that you disagreed with me.

> Regulators did not require its withdrawal, and it
> continues to be marketed in the United Kingdom (where 20% of diabetics
> use animal-sourced insulin), Australia, India and many, many other
> countries, along with pork insulin. It is safe, effective and
> affordable.

COMMENT:
Ahem. "Safe" you say?  On the basis of *what* BSE-centered studies of
beef insulin manufacture? How much looking at the issue has anybody
really done? Where is COCHRANE'S concern about safety issues when we
really need them?

By the way, regulators did not require withdrawal of beef insulin in
the US, because they didn't need to. Companies withdrew voluntarily.
But the FDA does indeed have concerns about BSE in beef insulin
imported from other countries, and is on record about it.

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/beefandporkinsulin/default.htm#Q-1

> Steve Harris:
> Pork insulin is available just about everywhere,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> not in the United States. They have been as