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Medical Forum / General / General / September 2005

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Topol and Avorn take FDA to task: asking the wrong questions

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fresh~horses - 07 Sep 2005 23:52 GMT
FDA Taken to Task, Again

By Amanda Gardner
HealthDay Reporter1 hour, 46 minutes ago

WEDNESDAY, Sept. 7 (HealthDay News) -- Once again, a leading physician
has wielded his pen in one of the world's most prestigious medical
journals to lambaste the U.S. drug approval process.

In this case, Dr. Jerry Avorn, of Harvard Medical School and Brigham
and Women's Hospital in Boston, writes that when it comes to the
requirements for approval of new drugs, the federal government allows
"a minimal standard that would be unacceptable anywhere else in
research."

Writing in the Sept. 8 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine,
Avorn likens the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to "a patient with
obsessive-compulsive disorder" who is "single-mindedly preoccupied"
with, essentially, asking the wrong questions.

The charge struck a chord with another longstanding critic of the
beleaguered agency.

"There has been a series of blatant problems," says Dr. Eric Topol,
chairman of the department of cardiovascular medicine and chief
academic officer of the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. "This is the worst
situation we've faced in decades at the FDA."

The FDA declined to comment on the article, agency spokeswoman
Christine S. Parker said.

Avorn, who is also the author of Powerful Medicines: the Benefits,
Risks and Costs of Prescription Drugs, focuses much of his argument on
so-called "lifestyle" drugs, such as those used to treat impotence or
arthritis pain.

While a weighing of risks and benefits is particularly important for
these drugs, Avorn notes the FDA generally does not require such an
assessment.

Topol says: "We could separate out lifesaving and lifestyle drugs, and
I think lifestyle drugs, unless they are having a tremendous impact,
which is rarely the case, they should be looked at in a different
light."

In his piece, Avorn goes back a few years to the weight-loss drug
dexfenfluramine (Redux), which became part of the fen-phen craze of the
1990s. That drug was approved by the FDA despite concerns that it might
cause potentially fatal pulmonary hypertension. It turned out the drug
did cause pulmonary hypertension in some patients, as well as cardiac
valvulopathy, valve problems that were an unexpected development. The
drug was withdrawn from the market within a year. It had been approved
because people taking it in trials lost an average of six pounds more
than people on a placebo, Avorn writes.

The FDA is now in the process of reviewing rimonabant (Acomplia), a
weight-loss drug of a different sort. In trials, the drug did induce
some weight loss, along with some withdrawals of participants from the
study because of neuropsychiatric and gastrointestinal disorders, Avorn
writes.

Avorn also criticizes developments in another "lifestyle" area:
insomnia.

Ramelton (Rozerem) was approved on the basis of trials that found
improvements over one or two nights only. Another study did not
demonstrate a benefit in patients under the age of 65, Avorn says.

And then there is the example of BiDil, recently approved to treat
congestive heart failure in black patients. That approval, Avorn
writes, was based on a subset of a larger study. A larger, controlled
study should have been conducted to assess differences between blacks
and whites before the drug was released to market, he notes.

Also, some lifestyle drugs, such as the controversial arthritis pain
medications Vioxx and Celebrex, were given fast-track review, Topol
points out. "Do we want to do that for lifestyle medicine? On the other
hand, there are those that prevent death. They're lifesaving. The FDA
doesn't partition in any way."

But the FDA should be able to exercise more authority, as it has by not
allowing companies to claim that osteoporosis drugs prevent fractures
if the trial only showed an increase in bone mineral density, Avorn
contends.

Avorn recommends that the agency ask questions that more directly pit
risk against benefit, assess how long the drug is effective, and how
the drug compares to current treatments.

If large pharmaceutical companies were to shift the balance of what
they spend (currently two-thirds for marketing and administration vs.
one-third on research and development), it might help ameliorate the
situation, he writes.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/hsn/20050907/hl_hsn/fdatakentotaskagain
fairuse
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 08 Sep 2005 00:49 GMT
> FDA Taken to Task, Again
>
> By Amanda Gardner
> HealthDay Reporter1 hour, 46 minutes ago

> Avorn, who is also the author of Powerful Medicines: the Benefits,
> Risks and Costs of Prescription Drugs, focuses much of his argument on
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> which is rarely the case, they should be looked at in a different
> light."

COMMENT:

The reason we know there is no god, is that neither Topol or Avorn is
likely to be struck with a couple of years of impotence and arthritis,
as just cosmic punishment for their complete lack of empathy.

So what if you're obese, or you can't sleep at night?  Hey, that's not
suffering. It's just a "lifestyle" problem. And we know now, that you
merely want a "lifestyle drug." It's not like you need the drug to save
your life. There you go. A new category of things are born.

So you have urinary incontinence?  You can wear pads or diapers. It's
the Depends Lifestyle--- all the rage now.

Birth control pills?  Well, a new baby will alter your lifestyle, all
right, but that's really all contraception usually is.

And while we're at it, it's a shame the FDA doesn't look at lifestyle
surgeries. All surgery is life threatening, but some surgeries are done
for what can only be called lifestyle reasons. Certainly all the
cosmetic ones. Why can't you just be a little ugglier? Maybe the
beautiful people lifestyle wasn't meant for you.

But that's not all. A woman who wants a bladder resuspension because of
incontinence, doesn't have to have it.  There's the good old Depends.
A womam bleeding everyday who wants a hysterectomy or an endometrial
abblation--- hey, that's what tampons are for. Are they not sold as
lifestyle products? Buy a bigger purse.

For that matter, what is breast reconstruction after a mastectomy for
cancer, but a "lifestyle operation"?  It saves no lives.  Prostheses
are available.  A woman missing one or both breasts may have some minor
self image problems or sexual problems, but no worse than an impotent
man has, and we've already determined that THAT's a mere lifestyle
problem. So by logic, reconstructive surgery needs to be looked at more
closely to see if it's "safe." We all must do what's safe.  The
government has decreed this.  The FDA is there to insure that you're
safe, not particularly that you're happy or comfortable.

I will admit that Avorn and Topol have hit on one particular problem
with the FDA, which is that it seems incapable of balancing risks vs.
benefits for drugs, because the agency itself doesn't die, and doesn't
feel pain or social embarrassment, and has no concept of the idea that
there might be kinds of things a person might value in life, which make
that person's life worth living to them. And that different people
might actually have different ideas and values on this subject, and
object to being shoved into the same mold by beaurocrats a long way
away.

So, I have a modest proposal.  Why don't we get some input from
patients themselves, as to the tradeoffs between safety and lifestyle,
in the same way that people decide these things when they buy bicycles,
scuba equipment and sports-cars?  Think of all those interested people,
actually working on their OWN problems! Getting advice from their
personal physicians!  The efficiency of it! Breathtaking. Perhaps, if
it all works out, we could eventually leave the FDA out of the process
almost altogether. What say?

I'm not quite sure what they're doing in this process anyway, are you?
They WERE originally there to make sure foods and drugs were pure,
correctly labeled as to content and dose, and were not frankly
poisonous due to some additive like ethylene glycol.  But somewhere
after that, the FDA got sidetracked into making ethical and aesthetic
judgements for everybody, about what kind of safety tradeoffs are
permitted in changing what is called your "lifestyle."

Is that what we want the federal government to be doing?  Apparently
so.

So, good luck with that bad back and those diapers. Washington doesn't
feel your pain. And it certainly doesn't care if you wet yourself. If
you were privy to more of what goes on behind closed doors in
Washington, DC, you'd wet yourself even more than you do.

SBH
fresh~horses - 08 Sep 2005 03:18 GMT
What did the bit bad gub'ment make you do today Stevie?  Put brakes on
your car?

Zee
Happy Dog - 08 Sep 2005 05:59 GMT
"fresh~horses" <fresh~horses@despammed.com> wrote in

> What did the bit bad gub'ment make you do today Stevie?  Put brakes on
> your car?

That it can do without.  But it made him give up at least a third of his
income; before downing his shake.  What did it make you do?  Fill out
another grab form?

moo
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 08 Sep 2005 18:57 GMT
> What did the bit bad gub'ment make you do today Stevie?  Put brakes on
> your car?
>
> Zee

COMMENTS

Brakes on my car affect the safety of others (unless I drive only on my
own property). So current law actually makes sense there.

Laws about personal choices which do not put other people in danger,
make less sense. Many DEA scheduled drugs, which you can be jailed for
just to possessing without a prescription, are no more dangerous to
other people (or less) than ethanol. It all depends on public use.

By contrast, many controlled painkillers (hydrocodone and codeine, for
example) kill far fewer people than the over the counter drugs like the
NSAIDS. One has the feeling it's not exactly the safety of the users
the government cares about. In fact the government allows the use of
paracetamol/acetaminophen to denature these products (just as Canada
does, where you can actually buy small amounts of codeine over the
counter, so long as it has enough paracetamol in it to poison you if
you want to get high).

The worst hypocrisy is that the most dangerous drugs of all to public
safetly, aren't controlled by the DEA at all. They are antibiotics. In
most other countries, even some that have draconian narcotics laws,
antibiotics are sold over the counter. Again, public safety is not the
issue, obviously.

So bite your tongue. Don't liken all this (apples and oranges) to
brake-inspection laws. FYI, here in the US, some states don't even have
THOSE (like the the state I live in). But you'll go to jail for quite
some time for growing pot in your closet and smoking it there. Go
figure. In Holland, they don't care about pot, but probably do inpect
cars. Some population is crazy in one of these places.

SBH
fresh~horses - 08 Sep 2005 19:08 GMT
Agreed. I can have a medicine cabinet filled with uppers and downers;
just so long as you write me a script.

Cut me a line will ya?

Zee
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 08 Sep 2005 21:00 GMT
> Agreed. I can have a medicine cabinet filled with uppers and downers;
> just so long as you write me a script.
>
> Cut me a line will ya?
>
> Zee

If it weren't for the laws, I'd give you anything you wanted, until I
thought you were being harmed. Then I'd refuse, as even any bartender
would. But would respect your right to go to the liquor store and buy
narcotics, even then. So long as you walked, not drove, home.

As a society, we've already dealt with all these problems, in the case
of alcohol. The rest is just by analogy. Why make all the same
arguments twice?  When we tried to outlaw alcohol, we had mobs
machine-gunning each other for territorical distribution rights for
BOOZE. It went away when prohibition did. Why did we learn nothing from
it?

A guy can buy a bottle at a liquor store, drink it in the parking lot,
and run over your child on the way back home. We don't put the liquor
store owner in jail for life as a "pusher" and "murderer."  But when it
comes to other psychoactives, for which the same logic applies, we
completely lose our reason.

I'm for logic, consistancy, fairness. And for treating adults as adults
until they show they individually can't be trusted to behave.

SBH
fresh~horses@despammed.com - 08 Sep 2005 23:37 GMT
> > Agreed. I can have a medicine cabinet filled with uppers and downers;
> > just so long as you write me a script.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> SBH

Oh we're ALL of us for logic consistency and fairness Steve. Just what
defines this differs from person to person, ideology to ideology, issue
to issue.

Ask the pit bull owner who's dog just chewed up a kid's face. He has a
different idea of fairness than the kid's parents do.

Ask the guy who drank his booze somewhere other than considered legal
and is now in the drunk tank. And ask the constabulary of New Orleans
why it wasn't.

You'll get logic, consistency and fairness every time, from every one
of them.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 09 Sep 2005 01:42 GMT
> Oh we're ALL of us for logic consistency and fairness Steve. Just what
> defines this differs from person to person, ideology to ideology, issue
> to issue.
>
> Ask the pit bull owner who's dog just chewed up a kid's face. He has a
> different idea of fairness than the kid's parents do.

COMMENT:

You insist on using examples of things which are dangers to others, not
simply to the user or owner.

Or course, there are massive gray areas, from dogs to firearms to
dangerous animals in the wild (should be now shoot them all, in case
some wander into our backyards and eat our child's face?).

As for pit bulls, I think case-law goes all the way back to Exodus 21.
"And if an ox gore a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be surely
stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall
be quit. But if the ox was wont to gore in time past, and it hath been
testified to its owner, and he hath not kept it in, but it hath killed
a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be
put to death."  You get the idea.

> Ask the guy who drank his booze somewhere other than considered legal
> and is now in the drunk tank. And ask the constabulary of New Orleans
> why it wasn't.

COMMENT:
Why "it" wasn't? What are you talking about?  New Orleans violence was,
and is, not due to drugs or alcohol. It was due to culture. Crappy
culture. Nothing like it was seen after the Indian Ocean Tsunami of
last December. You can have large numbers of people in the middle of
nowhere consuming any kind of drug you can think of, and no violence.
You wouldn't believe Burning Man unless you'd been there a few times. I
could describe it, but words would fail.

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,68765,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2

COMMENTS:
Drugs are a non-issue. Culture is the issue.

> You'll get logic, consistency and fairness every time, from every one
> of them.

COMMENTS:
No, I won't. I'll get stupidity and narrowminded-opinions. As opposed
to my own :).

SBH
fresh~horses - 09 Sep 2005 04:18 GMT
> > Oh we're ALL of us for logic consistency and fairness Steve. Just what
> > defines this differs from person to person, ideology to ideology, issue
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You insist on using examples of things which are dangers to others, not
> simply to the user or owner.

Well how about silicone breast implants then.

> Or course, there are massive gray areas, from dogs to firearms to
> dangerous animals in the wild (should be now shoot them all, in case
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be
> put to death."  You get the idea.

I do. But the dog's owner doesn't. And neither does the kid's dad.

> > Ask the guy who drank his booze somewhere other than considered legal
> > and is now in the drunk tank. And ask the constabulary of New Orleans
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> last December. You can have large numbers of people in the middle of
> nowhere consuming any kind of drug you can think of, and no violence.

Not referring to that at all. An incident that happened to an
aquaintance wandering around N'Awlins at Mardi Gras, and got nabbed
because he was carrying a drink 1/4 block outside some delineated zone.
His arguments were logical. It wasn't hurting anyone. Ended up hurting
him though.

> You wouldn't believe Burning Man unless you'd been there a few times. I
> could describe it, but words would fail.
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,68765,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2

I've never heard of this. What the hell is it? Go ahead, describe it if
you have time. It happens every year? Why? You've been? Why again?

> COMMENTS:
> Drugs are a non-issue. Culture is the issue.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> No, I won't. I'll get stupidity and narrowminded-opinions. As opposed
> to my own :).

 

> SBH
 
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