Medical Forum / General / General / August 2005
stopping statins is bad for your health
|
|
Thread rating:  |
outrider - 07 Aug 2005 19:50 GMT May 17, 2005
STOPPING STATINS IS BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH!
By Red Flags Columnist, Dr. Malcolm Kendrick
A kind reader just sent me a link to an article in Geriatrics
It was entitled, 'stopping statins is bad for your health.' I'm afraid to say that it isn't new news, as it came out in October last year, but it is news to me. And it is such a mind-bogglingly stupid article that it demands some comment.
It was written by one Frederick T. Sherman, who has no financial connections with the pharmaceutical industry to disclose. So here is a little challenge to readers of Red Flags. Find the financial connection between Frederick T. Sherman and a statin manufacturer and win a prize. (The prize being a sense of smug moral satisfaction - do you think I am made of money?)
By the way, the fact that there is a great big banner ad for Lipitor at the top of the web page, and a socking great ad for Caduet running down the side, doesn't count. Just because Pfizer provides advertising revenue to a journal that Frederick T. Sherman gets paid to write for is far too easy.
Moving on. The main theme of this article is Bill Clinton, and his heart attack, and quadruple bypass. Apparently, in 1992 he had been found to have an LDL level of 177 - oh, my God. Luckily, his eagle eyed doctor had started him on Simvastatin ... in 2001. Glad to see the medical profession leaping into immediate action.
But naughty, naughty Bill stopped taking his statin, and had a heart attack in 2004. Or maybe he didn't have a heart attack, but just had blocked up arteries - this bit isn't too clear. Why did Bill stop taking his statin? Because he felt he was taking exercise and losing weight, and didn't need to take a statin any more.
Now, I'm not one to judge - as my mother-in-law is wont to say, before doling out a metaphysical death sentence - but Bill really ought to know better. I know that diet and exercise are supposed to be the first actions taken for those with high LDL levels, before taking drugs. But once you're on drugs, you really ought to take them forever, and ever, and ever.
As William T. Sherman would say:
'Clearly, long-term compliance with medications, specifically statins, is more important than diet and exercise alone. Drug therapy, rather than lifestyle modification, must become the mainstay of therapy for the primary and secondary prevention of CAD. The future coronary health of the American public depends upon Baby Boomers and subsequent generations taking all of their cardioprotective medications for life.'
Read that paragraph you naughty people you. Exercise all you like, lose all the weight you can, but it will make no difference. YOU MUST TAKE YOUR STATINS. Now, go to bed and no pudding for you.
A small issue William T. Sherman noted is that, in 1992, Bill Clinton had an LDL level of 177. In 2004, it was 114. Excuse me, William T. Sherman, but does it not seem odd to you that Bill Clinton had achieved an LDL reduction of 35%, having stopped his statin. A 35% reduction in LDL would be considered a therapeutic 'success,' for the statinators amongst us.
So, without a statin Bill Clinton's LDL fell by 35%, then he had a heart attack. Forgive me for saying this William T. Sherman, but to my mind this would appear to suggest that a falling LDL level is a risk factor for CHD - as clearly demonstrated in the Framingham study, amongst others.
In the unforgiving logical prison that I inhabit, the parable of Bill Clinton would not seem to be a warning against stopping statins. It seems more likely to be a warning that when your LDL level falls, you are in serious danger of suffering a heart attack. However, I tend to find that one's interpretation of events can be clouded by external funding issues.
Anyway, thank you to William T. Sherman for reminding us that 'The future coronary health of the American public depends upon Baby Boomers and subsequent generations taking all of their cardioprotective medications for life.'
There is just no answer to that - at least not before the children have safely gone to bed.
fairuse www.redflagsweekly.com
Poppy - San Francisco Bay Area - 07 Aug 2005 20:02 GMT I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my stroke group. I would like accurate info about whether they are worth the risk.
Alex - 07 Aug 2005 20:23 GMT >I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my >stroke group. I would like accurate info about whether they are worth >the risk. Ask your doctor unless you're willing to follow the advice of Chamblee and his parrots.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 07 Aug 2005 20:54 GMT > I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my > stroke group. I would like accurate info about whether they are worth > the risk. COMMENT: The HPS trial showed that people who already had evidence of cerebrovascular disease (certainly a former stroke counts) had a 33% reduction in risk of further stroke being complaiant with 40 mg a day of simvastatin (Zocor). That's a big reduction--- the stuff prevents one stroke in three in this group.
So yes, nearly everyone agrees that it's worth the risk, for stroke patients. Despite all the propaganda you hear against statins here, most statin side effects go away if you get them, and you stop the pill. And in any case, they are rare (severe ones in total being considerably more rare than 1 in 50 users, and probably more like 1 in 200 users if you subtract placebo rates).
A doctor named Golomb at UCSD has been collecting 1000 people to run a statin side effect trial. That study was supposed to have been concluded last year, and isn't yet. That tells me they managed to collect the full 1000 people, and the trial wasn't stopped prematurely by monitors for ethical reasons. That fact alone puts upper bounds on how many severe side effects they could have seen. If the trial was well-run and properly run, this number cannot have been large.
SBH
outrider - 07 Aug 2005 23:10 GMT > > I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my > > stroke group. I would like accurate info about whether they are worth [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of simvastatin (Zocor). That's a big reduction--- the stuff prevents > one stroke in three in this group. What type of stroke?
And the other?
> So yes, nearly everyone agrees that it's worth the risk, for stroke > patients. Despite all the propaganda you hear against statins here, > most statin side effects go away if you get them, and you stop the > pill. And in any case, they are rare (severe ones in total being > considerably more rare than 1 in 50 users, and probably more like 1 in > 200 users if you subtract placebo rates). One in 50... And how many MILLIONS are taking statins?
> A doctor named Golomb at UCSD has been collecting 1000 people to run a > statin side effect trial. That study was supposed to have been [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > SBH I am one who has had life-altering, disabling side effects from statins. Now, four years after BAYCOL recall I have yet to recover well enough to work at my former profession (journalist: reporter, news photograher) or work with any predicability more than about 15 hours a MONTH. I also cannot command the very good hourly wage my exceptional skills drew. I have lost language function; and my vision is very bad. I have lived on my cashed in savings and pension, sold everything I own but for a bed, 2 chairs, a computer, and an 18 year old car. I on about $800 a month, of my own money, until I am eligible for a somewhat smaller sum at 65. It takes ingenuity to live well on this. Fortunately, I have that. I regularly take goods including food, from dumpsters in my neighbourhood. What I can't use I sell to consignment shops.
Here is a partial list of my ADVERSE EFFECTS on STATINS:
Pancreatitis, gall bladder disease, helicobactor pylori ulcer, myopathy and rhabdomyolysis, tendon and ligament damage, worsening of a pre-existing back condition (2 instrumented fusions), cognitive damage--many people with similar have been MRId with lesions and atrophy, aphasia, short term memory loss, working memory difficulty, transient global amnesia, permanent vision damage. This is a list compiled from known statin adverse effects. I've probably forgotten something.
Dr. Golomb is the P.I. of the 5 year NIH funded Statin Study. She and her team of researchers are investagating the ADVERSE EFFECTS of statins. Dr. Golomb has had other very demanding considerations of late. But we statin-injured know she will soon return with renewed vigour to continue her work.
This is Dr. Golomb's website. Her researchers would love to hear from you with your experience of statins. They have questionnaires they will mail to you; and packages of information on how to deal with statin side effects. They will, at your request, contact your doctors on your behalf if they do not acknowledge your symptoms might be coming from your statin. Golomb et al have done this for thousands of people from all over the world, apart from her study participants. Including me.
STATIN STUDY website contact information within http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/index.htm
Dr. Beatrice Golomb's cv: http://medicine.ucsd.edu/faculty/golomb/
Statin Adverse Effects: Implications for the Elderly by Beatrice A. Golomb, M.D., Ph.D.
Geriatric Times May/June 2004 Vol. V Issue 3
Statins, or 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl-CoA reductase inhibitors (e.g., atorvastatin [Lipitor], simvastatin [Zocor]), are among the best-selling prescription drugs in the world and are widely viewed as very safe and effective. Their benefits to coronary artery disease have been copiously documented and are incontrovertible. In addition, statins have been shown to benefit survival in a large study of middle-aged men with, or at high risk for, heart disease (Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study Group, 1994). Nonetheless, all drugs have potential adverse reactions despite their potential benefits. Understanding these risks is vitally important, particularly in elderly patients in whom both risks and benefits differ relative to younger patients.
Evidence suggests the balance of benefits to risks may be less favorable in the elderly: Cholesterol becomes a less potent predictor of cardiovascular problems, and adverse reactions from drugs, including statins, may become more prominent. While patients at high risk for cardiovascular disease receive mortality benefit from statins in studies predominating in middle-aged men (Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study Group, 1994), no trend toward survival benefit is seen in elderly patients at high risk for cardiovascular disease (Shepherd et al., 2002). A less favorable risk-benefit profile may particularly hold for patients older than 85, in whom benefits may be more attenuated and risks more amplified (Weverling-Rijnsburger et al., 1997). In fact, in this older group, higher cholesterol has been linked observationally to improved survival. This paper will review a selection of the risks and adverse effects of statins that have special implications for elderly patients.
Muscle Problems
Muscle problems are the most common reported adverse effects of statins, according to an observational database maintained by the University of California at San Diego Statin Study group. Perhaps the most feared adverse effect of statins is rhabdomyolysis--a condition in which there is severe breakdown of muscle tissue that may be toxic to the kidneys and result in kidney failure or death. The muscle breakdown commonly leads to a strong elevation in blood levels of muscle enzyme creatine kinase (CK). Creatine kinase levels often exceed 10 times the upper limit of normal in cases of frank rhabdomyolysis. Fatal rhabdomyolysis occurred with increased frequency with cerivastatin (Baycol) when used at higher doses or in combination with gemfibrozil (Lopid); cerivastatin was removed from the U.S. market in 2001. Rhabdomyolysis occurs with all statins, although the actual frequency of occurrence is quite low.
Physicians are most familiar with rhabdomyolysis, and many suppose that for muscle pain to be statin-associated, it must induce muscle symptoms throughout the body coupled with elevation of CK levels. However, this reflects only one manifestation of statin-associated muscle symptoms. Some patients have only new focal pain or new fatigue, and may have mild or no elevation in CK levels. In some instances these symptoms progress to rhabdomyolysis--one reason to take these symptoms seriously--but many times they do not.
An important double-blind, crossover biopsy study showed that some patients receiving statin therapy with non-CK-elevating muscle pain have objectively documentable, partially reversible mitochondrial myopathy (Phillips et al., 2002). Even in the absence of rhabdomyolysis or CK elevation, major effects on function and quality of life may occur (Golomb et al., 2003). It is important to note that in both our experience and that of others, muscle symptoms precipitated by statins may not in all cases completely recover; this is consistent with the finding that, pathologically, the myopathy may not completely reverse.
Adverse muscle problems from statins, in addition to rhabdomyolysis, take a variety of forms (Table). Shortness of breath sometimes accompanies statin-associated muscle problems. The "respiratory exchange ratio"--the ratio of carbon dioxide exhaled per oxygen inhaled--is altered in people with statin myotoxicity (Phillips et al., 2004). Occasionally, shortness of breath is the predominant symptom. Patients may experience marked shortness of breath that occurs following initiation of statin therapy and is sustained while statins are continued for which no etiology is identified on extensive cardiopulmonary workup. These symptoms resolve completely with statin discontinuation.
Muscle problems associated with statins may be more common among the elderly. In the 2002 American College of Cardiology/American Heart Association/National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute Clinical Advisory on the Use and Safety of Statins, Pasternak et al. noted the following factors that may increase the risk for statin-associated myopathy:
* advanced age (especially >80 years, women > men); * small body frame and frailty; * multisystem disease; * multiple medications; * perioperative periods; and * concurrent use of certain medications.
These factors are especially common among the elderly, which places them at increased risk for development of muscle problems with statins.
Muscle problems associated with statins may be more debilitating among the elderly. When muscle problems occur, they may have more impact on the elderly. Elderly patients more commonly have already declined in muscle strength and function; and are often already on, or perched near, the steep part of the curve relating muscle strength to physical function, independence and the ability to perform activities of daily living. Thus, the same amount or proportion of compromise in muscle function may have a substantially more profound impact on quality of life in elderly patients. In addition, reductions in physical function, indexed by reductions in lower extremity function, are linked to self-reported disability, hospitalizations, admissions to nursing homes and mortality from all causes (Guralnik et al., 2000, 1995, 1994; Penninx et al., 2000). Reductions in lower extremity function are associated with reduced physical activity (McDermott et al., 2002), so that such patients may lose the protection that exercise is reported to afford against a host of conditions.
Cognitive Loss
Cognitive problems also occur with statins and may also have more impact in elderly patients. Two randomized trials that were designed to assess cognitive effects of statins have shown worsening in cognitive function (Muldoon et al., 2002, 2000). In addition, several case reports (King et al., 2003, 2001; Orsi et al., 2001) and one large case series (involving 60 patients) (Wagstaff et al., 2003) have reported deleterious cognitive effects of statins on memory and cognitive function.
Although not expressly designed to assess cognition, results from the Heart Protection Study (HPS) (Heart Protection Study Collaborative Group, 2002) and PROSPER trial (Shepherd et al., 2002) did not show that statin therapy had favorable or deleterious effects on cognitive measures that were tested. Several factors may help to explain the discrepancy between findings from these large and smaller trials targeted at testing cognition. First, different measures of cognition were used that may not have tapped the areas in which problems occur. The telephone survey measure in the HPS, for instance, would not have captured visuomotor coordination and processing speed, which the other trials suggested may be particularly affected.
Second, the large trials enrolled people at high risk for cardiovascular disease who experience benefit from statins to nonfatal stroke, which may lead to improvements in cognition that may help to balance out harms to cognition from other mechanisms. Although there are trends toward increases in fatal stroke with statins in most of the large statin trials, those who have died cannot complete cognitive surveys. The impact on total number of strokes was unaffected in the PROSPER trial with its sole focus on the elderly population. In the PROSPER trial, the number of reduced transient ischemic attacks and nonfatal strokes was actually matched by a similar number of increased fatal strokes.
Finally, the HPS used what is termed an "active run-in." For six weeks, participants considered for enrollment were placed on simvastatin, and those who were not fully compliant were dropped from the study. Participants who perceived problems on the drug, including cognitive problems, may have dropped the study themselves or skipped pills intentionally. In addition, participants who developed memory problems may have had trouble remembering to take the pills even if they did not recognize deterioration in cognitive function. This run-in process may have excluded participants who developed cognitive problems on the drug, selecting only those who did not experience problems. Over one-third of those who were interested in enrolling were excluded following this compliance run-in.
Because statins reduce nonfatal stroke (and cognition is obviously not measured in people who have experienced fatal stroke), benefits by statins for cognitive function in those in whom a stroke was averted might be expected. It must be emphasized that the randomized trial evidence has, to date, uniformly failed to show cognitive benefits by statins and has supported no effect or frank and significant harm to cognitive function.
Analogous to the case for muscle adverse effects, the impact of cognitive adverse effects from statins, when they occur, may be more profound in the elderly. Elderly patients have more commonly already experienced some decline in cognitive function, and more commonly are in a vulnerable range in which additional impairment can have an impact on independence and safety. Indeed, a number of studies show that even modest reductions in cognition in the elderly are linked to increased mortality, even when the reductions remain within the nondemented range, and even when other health factors have been controlled for (Bassuk et al., 2000; Frisoni et al., 1999; Korten et al., 1999; Smits et al., 1999). In this context, adverse cognitive effects must be taken seriously not only for their intrinsic impact on quality of life, but for their potentially weighty implications for mortality.
Other Adverse Effects
A large variety of other adverse effects have been reported with statins, including (but not limited to) gastrointestinal and neurological effects, psychiatric problems, immune effects (e.g., lupus-like syndrome), erectile dysfunction and gynecomastia (breast enlargement in men), rash and skin problems, and sleep problems.
Of particular note for the elderly population, the PROSPER trial found a significant 25% increase in incident cancer in participants over age 70 randomized to statin therapy versus placebo (Shepherd et al., 2002). Because statins have been reported to cause cancer in animals, the significant increase in cancer cannot be dismissed as necessarily a fluke. While a similar increase has not been seen in studies of statins in younger participants, older people have poorer stores of the cancer-protecting antioxidant nutrients that low-density lipoprotein cholesterol helps to transport to tissue (so that the increase in risk may occur selectively in elderly). Even if the fractional change in risk were similar, the elderly have a higher risk of cancer, increasing the number of cancer events that would manifest.
Low cholesterol is also linked to infection, including development of postoperative infection (Leardi et al., 2000) and predicts mortality and adverse outcomes in hospitalized patients (Crook et al., 1999). While some of this could be due to illness causing lower cholesterol, it may also be that low cholesterol contributes to illness; indeed, animal studies suggest lipoproteins may serve to protect against bacterial endotoxin-induced death (Read et al., 1993).
Statins may produce irritability or short temper in some people, a problem that occurs with statin therapy and resolves with its discontinuation (Golomb et al., 2004). For elderly patients who depend on others for assistance, irritability and its impact on the relationship with caregivers may have special implications.
Heart failure may also occur in patients taking statin therapy. In some people, the myopathic effects of statins may impair heart pumping function (Silver et al., 2003). However, in patients with reduced pumping function due to coronary artery blockages, statins may help heart pumping by improving blood flow to the heart (Node et al., 2003). It depends on the person whether benefit or harm dominates with statin therapy.
Discussion
Observational studies show that as age increases within the elderly age range, high cholesterol flattens then reverses as a risk factor for mortality (Weverling-Rijnsburger et al., 1997). Although it remains to be fully clarified whether these findings have relevance to cholesterol-lowering treatment, the exclusive major randomized trial of statins conducted in the elderly does nothing to dispel a possible causal association, as it did not show benefit of statins to survival. The impact was completely neutral on mortality despite selecting for an elderly population at only moderately older age and selecting for particularly high risk of heart disease--the elderly group in whom greater benefits and lower risks would be expected (Shepherd et al., 2002). There are reasons for concern that still older people--those elderly not selecting for high cardiac risk and those who are frailer than clinical trials generally select--might fare less well. Caution should be exercised in provision of statins as with all treatments in elderly patients. Any time a patient develops a new problem or worsening of an existing problem, the medication list should be reviewed and a possible contribution by medications should be considered. This principle is by no means confined to statins. It is particularly true in elderly patients who may be on many medications with interacting effects, and in whom ability to withstand adverse drug reactions may be attenuated.
Acknowledgement
Dr. Golomb would like to thank Tram Dang for research assistance and Janis Ritchie, R.N., for administrative assistance.
Dr. Golomb is on the faculty of the department of medicine and family and preventive medicine at the University of California, San Diego. Her research focuses on the risks and benefits of medical interventions.
References
Bassuk SS, Wypij D, Berkman LF (2000), Cognitive impairment and mortality in the community-dwelling elderly. Am J Epidemiol 151(7):676-688.
Crook MA, Velauthar U, Moran L, Griffiths W (1999), Hypocholesterolaemia in a hospital population. Ann Clin Biochem 36(pt 5):613-616.
Frisoni GB, Fratiglioni L, Fastbom J et al. (1999), Mortality in nondemented subjects with cognitive impairment: the influence of health-related factors. Am J Epidemiol 150(10):1031-1044.
Golomb BA, Kane T, Dimsdale JA (2004), Severe irritability associated with statin cholesterol-lowering drugs. QJM 97(4):229-235.
Golomb BA, Yang E, Denenberg J, Criqui M (2003), Statin-associated adverse events. P95. Presented at the 43rd Annual Conference on Cardiovascular Disease Epidemiology and Prevention. Miami; March 5-8.
Guralnik JM, Ferrucci L, Pieper CF et al. (2000), Lower extremity function and subsequent disability: consistency across studies, predictive models, and value of gait speed alone compared with the short physical performance battery. J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci 55(4):M221-M231.
Guralnik JM, Ferrucci L, Simonsick EM et al. (1995), Lower-extremity function in persons over the age of 70 years as a predictor of subsequent disability. N Engl J Med 332(9):556-561 [see comment].
Guralnik JM, Simonsick EM, Ferrucci L et al. (1994), A short physical performance battery assessing lower extremity function: association with self-reported disability and prediction of mortality and nursing home admission. J Gerontol 49(2):M85-M94.
Heart Protection Study Collaborative Group (2002), MRC/BHF Heart Protection Study of cholesterol lowering with simvastatin in 20,536 high-risk individuals: a randomised placebo-controlled trial. Lancet 360(9326):7-22 [see comments].
King DS, Jones DW, Wofford MR et al. (2001), Cognitive impairment associated with atorvastatin. Presented at the American College of Clinical Pharmacy Spring Practice and Research Forum. Salt Lake City; April 22-25.
King DS, Wilburn AJ, Wofford MR et al. (2003), Cognitive impairment associated with atorvastatin and simvastatin. Pharmacotherapy 23(12):1663-1667.
Korten AE, Jorm AF, Jiao Z et al. (1999), Health, cognitive, and psychosocial factors as predictors of mortality in an elderly community sample. J Epidemiol Community Health 53(2):83-88.
Leardi S, Altilia F, Delmonaco S et al. (2000), [Blood levels of cholesterol and postoperative septic complications.] Ann Ital Chir 71(2):233-237.
McDermott MM, Greenland P, Ferrucci L et al. (2002), Lower extremity performance is associated with daily life physical activity in individuals with and without peripheral arterial disease. J Am Geriatr Soc 50(2):247-255.
Muldoon MF, Barger SD, Ryan CM et al. (2000), Effects of lovastatin on cognitive function and psychological well-being. Am J Med 108(7):538-546.
Muldoon MF, Ryan CM, Flory JD, Manuck SB (2002), Effects of simvastatin on cognitive functioning. Presented at the American Heart Association Scientific Sessions. Chicago; Nov. 17-20.
Node K, Fujita M, Kitakaze M et al. (2003), Short-term statin therapy improves cardiac function and symptoms in patients with idiopathic dilated cardiomyopathy. [Published erratum Circulation 108(17):2170.] Circulation 108(7):839-843.
Orsi A, Sherman O, Woldeselassie Z (2001), Simvastatin-associated memory loss. Pharmacotherapy 21(6):767-769.
Pasternak RC, Smith SC, Bairey-Merz CN et al. (2002), ACC/AHA/NHLBI Clinical Advisory on the Use and Safety of Statins. Stroke 33(9):2337-2341 [see comment].
Penninx BW, Ferrucci L, Leveille SG et al. (2000), Lower extremity performance in nondisabled older persons as a predictor of subsequent hospitalization. J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci 55(11):M691-M697.
Phillips PS, Haas RH, Bannykh S et al. (2002), Statin-associated myopathy with normal creatine kinase levels. Ann Intern Med 137(7):581-585 [see comments].
Phillips CT, Gray NL, Puhek LM et al. (2004), Basal respiratory exchange ratio is altered with statin use in normals. J Am Cardio 43(suppl A):233a.
Read TE, Harris HW, Grunfeld C et al. (1993), The protective effect of serum lipoproteins against bacterial lipopolysaccharide. Eur Heart J 14(suppl K):125-129.
Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study Group (1994), Randomised trial of cholesterol lowering in 4444 patients with coronary heart disease: the Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study (4S). Lancet 344(8934):1383-1389.
Shepherd J, Blauw GJ, Murphy MB et al. (2002), Pravastatin in elderly individuals at risk of vascular disease (PROSPER): a randomised controlled trial. Lancet 360(9346):1623-1630 [see comments].
Silver MA, Langsjoen PH, Szabo S et al. (2003), Statin cardiomyopathy? A potential role for coenzyme Q10 therapy for statin-induced changes in diastolic LV performance: description of a clinical protocol. Biofactors 18(1-4):125-127.
Smits CH, Deeg DJ, Kriegsman DM, Schmand B (1999), Cognitive functioning and health as determinants of mortality in an older population. Am J Epidemiol 150(9):978-986.
Wagstaff LR, Mitton MW, Arvik BM, Doraiswamy PM (2003), Statin-associated memory loss: analysis of 60 case reports and review of the literature. Pharmacotherapy 23(7):871-880.
Weverling-Rijnsburger AW, Blauw GJ, Lagaay AM et al. (1997), Total cholesterol and risk of mortality in the oldest old. [Published erratum Lancet 351(9095):70.] Lancet 350(9085):1119-1123 [see comment].
mmlevy46@hotmail.com - 07 Aug 2005 23:36 GMT the 33% figure you quote--is that relative risk benefit or absolute risk benefit? thanks
Jim Chinnis - 09 Aug 2005 16:35 GMT mmlevy46@hotmail.com wrote in part:
>the 33% figure you quote--is that relative risk benefit or absolute >risk benefit? thanks Even in a study lasting a few years, it would be impossible to get thousands of subjects who had higher than 33% chance of a stroke during the study! -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
J.C. - 09 Aug 2005 16:53 GMT > mmlevy46@hotmail.com wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed. I would die before I got back on that stuff.
-- J.C.
Jim Chinnis - 09 Aug 2005 17:42 GMT "J.C." <ariverrunsthruit@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
>> mmlevy46@hotmail.com wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed. I >would die before I got back on that stuff. Non sequitor. Are you in the right thread? -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
(PeteCresswell) - 09 Aug 2005 17:59 GMT Per J.C.:
>I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed. How long were you on it and how rapidly did the symptoms progress?
 Signature PeteCresswell
J.C. - 09 Aug 2005 19:22 GMT > Per J.C.: > >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed. > > How long were you on it and how rapidly did the symptoms progress? > -- > PeteCresswell About a total of 18 months. I first noticed a pain in my left shoulder. Then it got to where my left arm would hurt if I did something like pick up a piece of trash from the yard, or pull a dead limb from a tree. Then it got to where just a sudden movement, like flynching when a bee got close or just about anything like that would bring me to tears it would hurt so bad. After about 7 months the same thing started with my right side. Along about that time my wife, who is a nurse, read in one of the medical alert things they get that statins can cause serious side effects in certain people. I stopped taking Lovastatin immediately and it took about two years to get myself back to normal. The doctor put me on some kind of substitute medicine. I just threw it away and never got the refills. I've had 8 semi-annual checkups since then and so far A-OK.
-- J.C.
(PeteCresswell) - 09 Aug 2005 21:38 GMT Per J.C.:
>I've had 8 semi-annual checkups >since then and so far A-OK. Any idea what your lipid numbers were before the statin, during, and now?
 Signature PeteCresswell
J.C. - 09 Aug 2005 21:48 GMT > Per J.C.: > >I've had 8 semi-annual checkups [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > PeteCresswell No sir. Not a clue.
-- J.C.
Don Kirkman - 11 Aug 2005 01:04 GMT It seems to me I heard somewhere that J.C. wrote in article <2w6Ke.67706$_I2.46133@fe03.news.easynews.com>:
>> Per J.C.: >> >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed.
>> How long were you on it and how rapidly did the symptoms progress?
>About a total of 18 months. I first noticed a pain in my left shoulder. Then >it got to where my left arm would hurt if I did something like pick up a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >threw it away and never got the refills. I've had 8 semi-annual checkups >since then and so far A-OK. What you describe sounds to me (a non-medical person) very much like symptoms that can come from pinched nerves, which are often related to changes in the spine from osteoarthritis. Has that been ruled out?
 Signature Don Kirkman
zee - 09 Aug 2005 19:23 GMT > Per J.C.: > >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed. > > How long were you on it and how rapidly did the symptoms progress? > -- > PeteCresswell Try your questions here Pete: statinstudy@ucsd.edu
http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/index.htm
WHAT TO DO IF YOU THINK YOU ARE HAVING AN ADVERSE EFFECT
1. If you have muscle pain or weakness, or brown urine (or change in color of urine), call your doctor immediately; you will probably need to get a "CK" test. 2. For any symptom that is bothersome to you, call your doctor and and schedule an appointment to discuss the symptom. 3. If you think the effect may be caused by the drug, ask your doctor about doing a test in which you stop the drug, or reduce the dose; see if the effect improves. If you and your doctor deem it is safe to do so, you might see if the symptoms return or worsen upon resuming the drug (sometimes a different statin drug or a lower dose, or a non-statin drug are all that are needed). If the doctor is unwilling to reduce the dose, and you are willing to try to increase the dose, you might increase the dose and see if the symptoms get worse. If the symptoms are severe, it is best to avoid this. If your doctor is very skeptical that the effect could result from the drug, and you are willing, you can do an "n-of-1" trial in which, on the doctor's order the pharmacy gives you placebo or drug, for at least two months, and neither you nor your doctor are told which. If you can say when the problem gets worse or better, this may help persuade your doctor. Know that it is your health and it is always your choice whether to take a drug. If your physician does not take your concerns and preferences into account, consider looking for a different physician. 4. If the symptoms seem related to the drug (especially if the above testing suggests a connection) you and your doctor will need to work together to decide whether the need for the drug exceeds the problems and effects on quality of life that the drug produces. The final choice is yours. 5. Please contact us and let us know about your side effects; the more we know, the more we can help others. 6. Some doctors are not familiar with the evidence that statin drugs or cholesterol drugs can cause problems with memory, pain, irritability, or sleep. You may need to educate them, and we are happy to help.
Share Your Experience We are seeking to get information from people who have had adverse responses to statins or to other cholesterol-lowering drugs, and also from people who have done well on these drugs. We can learn from this information, perhaps gaining a better understanding of who may be at risk and who will do well with statins; and what to expect in people who develop adverse effects (e.g. how quick or long recovery may take; what factors predict or facilitate recovery).
Share your experience with us, via a questionnaire. This will help us understand peoples' experiences with statins, so that we may share the information with others. Currently, you can download the appropriate forms to complete our questionnaire by visiting Contribute; we are in the process of completing an online (paperless) version of the questionnaire. If you are interested in contributing to our research with information about your experiences on statins and have trouble with the downloadable forms, we would love to hear from you via e-mail or telephone (we will call you back to administer or mail the questionnaire).
Our e-mail address is: statinstudy@ucsd.edu
Our phone number is: (858) 558-4950 x 215
Our mailing address is:
UCSD Statin Effects Study 9500 Gilman Dr. Dept. 0995 San Diego, CA 92093-0995
(PeteCresswell) - 09 Aug 2005 22:04 GMT Per zee:
>Try your questions here Pete: >statinstudy@ucsd.edu > >http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/index.htm That looks pretty good.
Thanks.
 Signature PeteCresswell
George Conklin - 09 Aug 2005 22:52 GMT > > Per J.C.: > > >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed. [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > 9500 Gilman Dr. Dept. 0995 > San Diego, CA 92093-0995 And what about the vastly increased chance of a cancer diagnosis in the year following the start of statins? If you get cancer, what do you do?
listener - 09 Aug 2005 23:59 GMT >> > Per J.C.: >> > >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > year following the start of statins? If you get cancer, what do you > do? Ummm....see an oncologist?
("vastly increased chance"?)
L.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 09 Aug 2005 20:44 GMT > mmlevy46@hotmail.com wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA COMMENT:
Right you are. It was a relative benefit. It prevented a third of the strokes that were set to happen, but only a small % of patients will have second strokes, even in a secondary study.
SBH
mmlevy46@hotmail.com - 09 Aug 2005 22:20 GMT I do not have the #'s from the study--if you do could you determine the absolute risk, which are always more informative than the relative risk #'s...thanks,
> > mmlevy46@hotmail.com wrote in part: > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > SBH (PeteCresswell) - 07 Aug 2005 22:23 GMT Per Poppy - San Francisco Bay Area:
>I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my >stroke group. I would like accurate info about whether they are worth >the risk. I'm not qualified to answer the question directly, but can say that my wife and I took two different paths. She modified her diet/exercise and raised her HDL from 30 to 60. Haven't seen her lipid test results sheet so I can't say what her computed risk factor is.
The cardiologist who was treating me was a good friend of my late brother before he died of a familial hypercholesterolemia-induced heart attack.
Looking back, I probably should have sought out somebody more neutral, but as it is, I went on Zocor per his advice. However stuff's expensive and, even though the risks are probably acceptable to most people; there are still risks (and, probably, side effects).
In retrospect, I think I'd rather have tried diet/exercise under competent supervision and then gone on a statin if that did not work out in some reasonable timeframe.
In fact, having just had my gall bladder out, I'm taking advantage of that dietary cusp to try to mimic my spouse's eating. After about six months of that, I plan to get a blood lipid profile and see what my GP says. Maybe it's not too late to get off of the stuff without increasing my risk factor.
 Signature PeteCresswell
(PeteCresswell) - 07 Aug 2005 22:36 GMT Per (PeteCresswell):
>under competent >supervision I should add that some time ago, I naively went on my own version of a vegetarian diet - with no supervision. I enjoyed the food and my HDL and LDL numbers didn't change much - but my trigs went through the roof - as in from 169 to 452.
So competent supervision is definitely important.
 Signature PeteCresswell
Sharon Hope - 10 Aug 2005 03:32 GMT Pete, You mentioned having your gall bladder removed.
Were you having any muscle pain since starting on the Zocor? Have you had regular blood tests checking CK?
There are many reasons, I suppose, for having a gall bladder removed, but the concern that spurred my question is this:
Of the people who suffered rhabdomyolysis, a potentially deadly adverse effect of statins, their medical records all followed a progression of adverse effects: - Muscle pain, then - gout, then - gall bladder removal, then - kidney and liver problems, then - rhabdomyolysis.
For a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) on Statin Adverse Effects, see:
http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our_statins/StatinFAQ_031305wTOCv4.pdf
> Per Poppy - San Francisco Bay Area: >>I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > it's > not too late to get off of the stuff without increasing my risk factor. fresh~horses - 17 Aug 2005 22:16 GMT > Per Poppy - San Francisco Bay Area: > >I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > -- > PeteCresswell Did I miss where you posted your numbers Pete? If you haven't will you consider doing that please. Zee
(PeteCresswell) - 18 Aug 2005 00:29 GMT Per fresh~horses:
>Did I miss where you posted your numbers Pete? If you haven't will you >consider doing that please. All numbers are simply from rote - entered in my Palm Pilot over the years. I do not understand why "Tot" does not equal HDL + LDL, but these are what are there right now. Data corruption? Dunno enough to have an opinion on how plausible they are...
I'm using a mono spaced font and making the columns with spaces, not tabs...
Date Tot HDL LDL Trigs "Risk Factor" ----------------------------------------------- 06/1990 205 42 130 169 07/1995 236 46 153 236 03/1997 253 ? ? 452 11/2001 258 45 ? 473
(Began Tricor) 03/2003 233 51 154 142
(Stopped Tricor, Began Zocor) 10/2003 156 49 83 118 3.2 12/2003 147 44 103 170 4.1
(Attempted unsupervised vegetarian diet) 04/2004 ? 38 73 310
(Resumed 'normal' diet) 07/2004 ? 51 97 175 03/2005 ? 50 107 186
 Signature PeteCresswell
Robert - 18 Aug 2005 01:13 GMT > Per fresh~horses: > >Did I miss where you posted your numbers Pete? If you haven't will you [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > 07/2004 ? 51 97 175 > 03/2005 ? 50 107 186 You make no mention of family history or other risk conditions such as hypertension, cigarette smoking, age. As you can see with age comes higher levels. Diet alone to get the LDL under 100 is ideal. Let's not kid ourselves here with diet. Unless you are in prison then simply saying that you promise to be good on diet next time doesn't do the trick. If you are so concerned with the meds then don't take them. Eat properly take some fish oils and hope for the best. You might want to wait until you get a heart attack or stroke in which there is no ambiguity on whether it helps taking statins or not. Statins are very expensive and you can save a lot of money and worry. You can be the control group of those who should have taken statins but were so worried about them and those who took them and compare notes over time.
Herman Rubin - 18 Aug 2005 02:44 GMT >Per fresh~horses: >>Did I miss where you posted your numbers Pete? If you haven't will you >>consider doing that please.
>All numbers are simply from rote - entered in my Palm Pilot over the years. >I do not understand why "Tot" does not equal HDL + LDL, but these are what are >there right now. Data corruption? Dunno enough to have an opinion on how >plausible they are... Total cholesterol = LDL + HDL + Triglycerides/5.
The usual calculation of LDL is made from this, if the others are within wide ranges.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
fresh~horses - 18 Aug 2005 03:07 GMT > Per fresh~horses: > >Did I miss where you posted your numbers Pete? If you haven't will you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > there right now. Data corruption? Dunno enough to have an opinion on how > plausible they are... See a registered dietician to help you with diet Pete and an exercise therapist for help with a progressive exercise program designed for you. Losing weight and increasing exercise will help lower triglycerides and raise HDL but don't try to do it on your own. You don't have a lot of organs to spare. ; )
About diet and other cholesterol lowering options. http://www.impostertrial.com/physician.htm
About Dr. Phillips study: http://www.impostertrial.com/1/
If you fill out this form, be sure to tell Dr. Phillips about your gall bladder surgery.
Zee
> I'm using a mono spaced font and making the columns > with spaces, not tabs... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > 07/2004 ? 51 97 175 > 03/2005 ? 50 107 186 Bill - 07 Aug 2005 23:09 GMT >I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my > stroke group. I would like accurate info about whether they are worth > the risk. First, that is the right question. There are risks, and for some they are worth it and for others not. Most problems resolve when the statin is discontinued and the Dr. should monitor you to make sure nothing is developing. So it is best to work this out with your Dr.
You should see what your cholesterol numbers are. If they are bad you should try diet and exercise first. Also, your medical history is important have you had a heart attack or a family history of one, etc.
Bill
Jason - 07 Aug 2005 23:51 GMT > I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my > stroke group. I would like accurate info about whether they are worth > the risk. Poppy, I advise you to read the following book since it contains some very important information about statins. I only wish that I had read the book before I took the first statin pill: WHAT YOU MUST KNOW ABUT STATIN DRUGS AND THEIR NATURAL ALTERNATIVES by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
Jason
 Signature NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
Bill - 07 Aug 2005 23:24 GMT Many people have as strong a belief in how good statins are as the people here believe how bad they are. Neither need to be paid to write about it.
The best way to get answers is through scientific trials and let the trials speak for themselves.
Bill
> May 17, 2005 > [quoted text clipped - 135 lines] > fairuse > www.redflagsweekly.com zee - 07 Aug 2005 23:43 GMT > Many people have as strong a belief in how good statins are as the people here > believe how bad they are. Neither need to be paid to write about it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bill What I do is not 'belief'. It is a WARNING. Do not take your doctor's word without doing some investigating yourself.
If the doctors (of those who post) knew what the adverse effects were and how they are manifested we wouldn't see query after query after query on these newsgroups. Year after year after year. One person after another into the thousands with PREVENTABLE statin injury. Some of this injury lingering years after stopping the statin. Some researchers now saying; statins may be triggering PARKINSON'S, musclular dystrophies, CPT2 and other metabolic disorders, Multiple Sclerosis & Guillan Barre Syndrome like disorders.
It's all here:
An 86 page PDF which you can download; primarily clincial studies from PUBMED. All on statin ADVERSE EFFECTS. More every day as finally...the injured are being listened to and researchers like Dr. Golomb, Dr. Baker, Dr. Tarnopolosky, Dr. Vladutiu, Dr. Phillips, Dr. di Mauro are being funded to find out__what__doctors like Steve Harris refused to acknowledge.
http://www.freewebs.com/stoppe d_our_statins/StatinFAQ_031305 wTOCv4.pdf
More pertinent information; also included in the above PDF:
Phillips PS, Phillips CT, Sullivan MJ, Naviaux RK, Haas RH. Abstract Statin myotoxicity is associated with changes in the cardiopulmonary function. Atherosclerosis. 2004 Nov;177(1):183-8. PMID: 15488882 [PubMed - in process] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en trez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&d b=pubmed&...
Dr. Beatrice Golomb Principal Investigator UCSD Statin Study http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/i ndex.htm e-mail: statinst...@ucsd.edu
Dr. Paul Phillips Head, Interventional Cardiology Scripps Mercy Hospital San Diego, CA http://www.impostertrial.com (Is Myopathy Part of Statin Therapy?) e-mail: inqu...@impostertrial.com
Statins and Women: "Do cholesterol lowering drugs benefit women?" http://www.medicalconsumers.or g/pages/WomenandCholesterol-Lo weringDru... http://www.medicalconsumers.or g/pages/newsletter.html
We've been bamboozled (about cholesterol drugs)
>From Newsday, July 2004: http://healthyskepticism.org/publications/nonmedline/2004/07 06.htm "The risk for total mortality was not lower in women treated with lipid-lowering drugs, regardless of whether they had prior cardiovascular disease or not," Dr. Judith M.E. Walsh and Dr. Michael Pignone wrote.
Do statins have a role in primary prevention? http://www.ti.ubc.ca/pages/let ter48.htm "What is the evidence of benefit for primary prevention in women? There were 10,990 women in the primary prevention trials (28% of the total). Only coronary events were reported for women, but when these were pooled they were not reduced by statin therapy, RR 0.98 [0.85-1.12]. Thus the coronary benefit in primary prevention trials appears to be limited to men,..."
~~~~~~~~~~
> > May 17, 2005 > > [quoted text clipped - 135 lines] > > fairuse > > www.redflagsweekly.com Bill - 08 Aug 2005 00:01 GMT >> Many people have as strong a belief in how good statins are as the people >> here [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What I do is not 'belief'. It is a WARNING. They are not inconsistent. I suspect you do believe that statins have serious side effects and these are not being made public enough. I suspect the writer of the original artical believes that people are not being sufficiently warned about the dangers of stopping statins.
Bill
> Do not take your doctor's > word without doing some investigating yourself. [quoted text clipped - 209 lines] >> > fairuse >> > www.redflagsweekly.com Sharon Hope - 10 Aug 2005 04:21 GMT Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who have experienced actual statin adverse effects - simply because their experience and their doctors' diagnoses do not fit that "belief" which is being blindly (and deafly) followed.
The only way those with such firmly entrenched beliefs can even begin to acknowledge the statin damaged is by assigning them a "counter belief" and then debating between that straw-dog imagined belief and their own - carrying on elaborate philosophical debates.
Never will they acknowledge the statin pain, statin damage, statin disability, nor will they deal with the symptoms. The only feel safe telling the statin disabled. "I suspect you do believe that statins [fill in the ridiculous, but easy to debate accusation here]."
Never will you ever catch these statin 'true believers' in saying anything remotely like, "Gosh, I really hope you feel better someday. How sad that you lost your ability to support yourself at 53, and you lost your home, and your medical insurance. We really ought to see if we can warn others before they experience these same PREVENTABLE side effects from statins. Maybe, too, there might be a way to fund some research into treating people to recovery when they do experience such drastic side effects." No, they seem to blame the victim for the "beliefs" they have projected upon them in their own imaginations.
It is as if they might arrive on the scene of a train wreck, ignore the shrieks for help, and stand there in the midst of the wreckage suspecting that these vocal folks must be harboring anti-transportation beliefs.
>>> Many people have as strong a belief in how good statins are as the >>> people here [quoted text clipped - 228 lines] >>> > fairuse >>> > www.redflagsweekly.com Bill - 10 Aug 2005 04:31 GMT > Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about > statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who have [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > shrieks for help, and stand there in the midst of the wreckage suspecting > that these vocal folks must be harboring anti-transportation beliefs. No one here denies that statins have bad effects and in very rare cases - perhaps one in a million - permanetly debilating ones. So you are wrong again if you imply that I do not acknowledge that.
You are the only one here who will not acknolwadge that statins may a stop debilating effects in some cases and may save lives.
You are also often very wrong many times on any evidence you present and are simply unable to think rationally about this subject.
Bill
>>>> Many people have as strong a belief in how good statins are as the people >>>> here [quoted text clipped - 228 lines] >>>> > fairuse >>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com Sharon Hope - 10 Aug 2005 04:52 GMT >> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about >> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > perhaps one in a million - permanetly debilating ones. So you are wrong > again if you imply that I do not acknowledge that. I must have missed that acknowledgement of my husband's 7+ years of pain and disability. Please point me to that post you made, I would like to print it out and show it to him.
> You are the only one here who will not acknolwadge that statins may a stop > debilating effects in some cases and may save lives. > > You are also often very wrong many times on any evidence you present and > are simply unable to think rationally about this subject. The citations I post are peer-reviewed published studies. Your problems with those studies were not shared by the editorial panel approving their publication.
> Bill > [quoted text clipped - 230 lines] >>>>> > fairuse >>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com Bill - 10 Aug 2005 05:13 GMT >>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about >>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > disability. Please point me to that post you made, I would like to print it > out and show it to him. I don't know that first hand. But I accept that. So you may print this out.
>> You are the only one here who will not acknolwadge that statins may a stop >> debilating effects in some cases and may save lives. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > with those studies were not shared by the editorial panel approving their > publication. That's false. It is not that publications were not peer reviewed - it is that you claimed facts from them that were not there. For example, you claimed that .0052% of people in the US have amnesia. Provide the quote.
And your inability to see these kinds of things is remarkable and demonstrates your inability to think rationally on this subject.
This is the original source by the way:
"We studied the clinical characteristics of transient global amnesia (TGA) in 277 patients with an average follow-up of 80 months. The syndrome occurred most frequently after age 50. There was a history of migraine in 14.1% and cerebrovascular diseases in 11.2% of patients, but these conditions were usually not temporally linked to TGA. Characteristic antecedent events and activity such as exertion existed in 33.4%. The incidence of TGA was 5.2 per 100,000 per year in Rochester, MN. Although 23.8% of the patients had recurrent episodes, they were not at increased risk for subsequent stroke."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=87202323
Note, they studied transient global amnesia not all forms of amnesia. It was also just in Rochester and we have no idea of the age distribution to compare with other studies. We also have no idea of confidence intervals on accuracy.
Bill
>> Bill >> [quoted text clipped - 230 lines] >>>>>> > fairuse >>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com Sharon Hope - 10 Aug 2005 05:33 GMT >>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about >>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > compare with other studies. We also have no idea of confidence intervals > on accuracy. Which "other" forms of amnesia have you seen documented as a result of statin adverse effects?
> Bill > [quoted text clipped - 238 lines] >>>>>>> > fairuse >>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com Bill - 10 Aug 2005 05:49 GMT >>>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about >>>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > Which "other" forms of amnesia have you seen documented as a result of > statin adverse effects? None. I have never seen TGA documented as a result of Lipitor either. Is it your claim that it is?
Again you have a remarkable ability to not see the point. Your claim of 5.2 per 100,000 in the general population having amnesia was totally false and thus can not be compared to Lipitor PI where all forms of amnesia were included - for example those probably caused by sleeping pills or accidents. They did not say TGA in the PI. They said amnesia. And you said amnesia.
Bill
>> Bill >> [quoted text clipped - 234 lines] >>>>>>>> > fairuse >>>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com Sharon Hope - 11 Aug 2005 04:26 GMT >>>>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about >>>>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > None. I have never seen TGA documented as a result of Lipitor either. Is > it your claim that it is? This is patently untrue.
You are on record having commented vehemently over the memory loss FAQ many many times.
You are on record having commented on my many posts about Dr. Graveline's two books, primarly about transient global amnesia due to Lipitor many many times.
You are on record having commented on my husband's multiple witnessed episodes of transient global amnesia due to Lipitor many many times.
Is your "pro-statin belief system" so threatened that it is causing you hysterical blindness and blackouts - AFTER you respond to something that you later claim you never heard of?
Just to refresh your memory, although it will trigger your "pro-statin belief system":
AMNESIA & STATINS
Frequently Asked Question: Amnesia is one of the Lipitor side
effects reported by Pfizer on the Physician's Information, where
can I find out more about people who have had amnesia
episodes while taking the drug?
Lipitor, Thief of Memory, by Duane Graveline M.D.
Dr. Graveline, retired family MD, USAF Flight Surgeon, researcher in space medicine
and US Astronaut, who suffered adverse effects from Lipitor, maintains several websites
and is working on a second book about statin adverse effects, including statin-related
memory loss and amnesia at:
www.spacedoc.net (you can start here and read about his life and his books)
http://www.spacedoc.net/lipitor_thief_of_memory.html
http://www.spacedoc.net/lipitor.htm
http://www.spacedoc.net/statin_dialogues.htm
Australian Adverse Drug Reactions Bulletin (Australia's equivalent to the
FDA)
Volume 17, Number 3, August 1998, section 3, page 3
Simvastatn is listed under "DRUGS THAT MAKE YOU FORGET"
Recognizing the 14 reports of Amnesia under that drug, .8% of the total adverse effects
for that drug.
www.health.gov.au/tga/docs/pdf/aadrbltn/aadr9808.pdf
MEMORY LOSS & STATINS
Frequently Asked Question: What medical research studies have
been done on Statins and Memory Loss, or other mental
problems that I can bring to my doctor's attention?
(Statins: Lipitor, Mevacor, Pravachol, Zocor, Lescol, and Baycol, aka atorvastatin,
cerivastatin, fluvastatin, lovastatin, pravastatin, and simvastatin; Nerve Damage:
Neuropathy, peripheral neuropathy, polyneuropathy; See separate FAQ for memory loss,
cognitive damage, amnesia and aphasia, i.e., central nervous system (CNS) damage)
Am J Med. 2004 Dec 1;117(11):823-9.
Randomized trial of the effects of simvastatin on cognitive functioning in
hypercholesterolemic adults.
Muldoon MF, Ryan CM, Sereika SM, Flory JD, Manuck SB.
Center for Clinical Pharmacology, University of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15260, USA.
mfm10@pitt.edu
"This study provides partial support for minor decrements in cognitive functioning with
statins. Whether such effects have any long-term sequelae or occur with other
cholesterol-lowering interventions is not known." This is the second of two studies by
Muldoon, both showing measurable cognitive decline in statin groups after only 6
months, using Neuropsych testing. Further, the cognitive deficits appear consistently in
specific areas.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstr
act&list_uids=15589485
Golomb BA, Yang E, Denenberg J, Criqui M (2003),
Statin-associated adverse events. P95. Presented at the 43rd Annual Conference on
Cardiovascular Disease Epidemiology and Prevention. Miami; March 5-8.
Muldoon MF, Ryan CM, Flory JD, Manuck SB (2002),
Effects of simvastatin on cognitive functioning.
Presented at the American Heart Association Scientific
Sessions. Chicago; Nov. 17-20.
Muldoon MF, Barger SD, Ryan CM, Flory JD, Lehoczky JP, Matthews KA, Manuck SB.
Effects of lovastatin on cognitive function and psychological well-being.
After 6 months, 100% of the patients on placeboes showed a measurable increase in
cognitive function, and 100% of the statin patients showed a measurable decrease in
cognitive function.
Am J Med. 2000 May;108(7):538-46.
PMID: 10806282 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
0806282&dopt=Abstract
Cognitive impairment associated with atorvastatin and simvastatin.
King DS, Wilburn AJ, Wofford MR, Harrell TK, Lindley BJ, Jones DW.
Department of Medicine, University of Mississippi Medical Center, Jackson, Mississippi
39216, USA. dking@pharmacy.umsmed.edu
Pharmacotherapy. 2003 Dec;23(12):1663-7.
"we report two women who experienced significant cognitive impairment temporally
related to statin therapy. One woman took atorvastatin, and the other first took
atorvastatin, then was rechallenged with simvastatin. Clinicians should be aware of
cognitive impairment and dementia as potential adverse effects associated with statin
therapy." PMID: 14695047
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstr
act&list_uids=14695047
Cognitive impairment associated with atorvastatin.
King DS, Jones DW, Wofford MR et al. (2001), Presented at the American College of
Clinical Pharmacy Spring Practice and Research Forum. Salt Lake City; April 22-25.
Australian Adverse Drug Reactions Bulletin (Australia's equivalent to the FDA)
Volume 17, Number 3, August 1998, section 3, page 3
Simvastatn is listed under "DRUGS THAT MAKE YOU FORGET"
Recognizing the 14 reports of Amnesia under that drug, .8% of the total adverse effects
for that drug.
www.health.gov.au/tga/docs/pdf/aadrbltn/aadr9808.pdf
Statin-associated memory loss: analysis of 60 case reports and review of the
literature.
Wagstaff LR, Mitton MW, Arvik BM, Doraiswamy PM.
Drug Information Service, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, North Carolina
27710, USA. Pharmacotherapy. 2003 Jul;23(7):871-80.
This study searched the MedWatch drug surveillance system of the Food and Drug
Administration (FDA) from November 1997-February 2002 for reports of statinassociated
memory loss. They also reviewed the published literature. References from
the study are good for follow-up research.
Abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2885101&dopt=Abstract
Full Study Text free on Medscape:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/458867
The Role of Lipid-Lowering Drugs in Cognitive Function: A Meta-Analysis of
Observational Studies
from Pharmacotherapy
Posted 06/30/2003
Mahyar Etminan, Pharm.D., Sudeep Gill, M.D., FRCPC, Ali Samii, M.D., FRCPC
Although this study does bring the cognitive issues to light, it is a very poor study. The
authors left out the pivotal study by Dr. Muldoon, that showed nearly 100% of statin
users had a measurable loss of cognitive ability after 6 months, while 100% of the
placebo group improved their scores.
Abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2820814&dopt=Abstract
Full Study Text free on Medscape:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/456866
Simvastatin-Associated Memory Loss
Amanda Orsi, Pharm.D., Olga Sherman, Pharm.D., and Zegga Woldeselassie, Pharm.D.,
Abstract: The statins are widely used to treat dyslipidemias. They are generally
associated with mild adverse effects, but rarely, more serious reactions may occur. A 51-
year-old man experienced delayed-onset, progressive memory loss while receiving
simvastatin for hypercholesterolemia. His therapy was switched to pravastatin, and
memory loss resolved gradually over the next month, with no recurrence of the adverse
effect.
from Pharmacotherapy
Posted 06/01/2001
Page 1 of 3:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/409738?WebLogicSession=PXke2H8h99pyNVS
CajAh5clptzOAHJSZuNBobSwWmi9veWjdJ2A3%7C-
1468812056489609316/184161392/6/7001/7001/7002/7002/7001/-1
full printable version: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/409738_print
ADR of the Month
September 2001 Vol. 6 No. 9
EDITORS
Michelle W. McCarthy, Pharm.D.
Anne E. Hendrick, Pharm.D.
University of Virginia Health System
Department of Pharmacy Services
Drug Information Center
PO Box 800674
Charlottesville, VA 22908-0674
http://hsc.virginia.edu/pharmacyservices/
Newsletters/ADR%20of%20the%20Month/ADRMonth%209-01htm.html
The Tablet, a general member benefit published by the British Columbia Pharmacy
Association, September 2001, Volume 10 no 8.
Excerpt:
Do HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors impair memory? After taking simvastatin for a
year, a 51-year-old patient developed short term memory loss, to the extent of being
unable to complete his sentences because he would forget what he was going to say. The
drug was discontinued, replaced by pravastatin, and within one month his memory
returned.14 In a separate case, a 67-year-old woman developed impaired short-term
memory, altered mood, social impairment, cognitive impairment and dementia after one
year of atorvastatin therapy. When atorvastatin was discontinued, her memory, mood and
cognition improved completely.15 Memory impairment in a patient receiving atorvastatin
has been reported to the BC Regional ADR Centre.
REFERENCES:
14. Orsi A, Sherman O, Woldeselassie Z. Simvastatin-associated memory loss.
15. King DS, Jones DW, Wofford MR et al. First report of cognitive impairment in an
elderly patient: case report. Pharmacotherapy 2001 Mar; 21: 371.
http://www.bcpharmacy.ca/publications/thetablet/pdf_version/BCPhA_Tablet-
Sep2001.pdf
See page 11 of 16:
See also:
Statins and risk of polyneuropathy, A case-control study
D. Gaist, MD, PhD; U. Jeppesen, MD, PhD; M. Andersen, MD, PhD; L.A. García
Rodríguez, MD, MSc;
J. Hallas, MD, PhD; and S.H. Sindrup, MD, PhD
http://213.4.18.135/87.pdf full text
Preclinical safety evaluation of cerivastatin, a novel HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor.
von Keutz E, Schluter G.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9
737641&dopt=Abstract
Institute of Toxicology, PH-Product Development, Bayer AG, Wuppertal, Germany
Am J Cardiol. 1998 Aug 27;82(4B):11J-17J.
PMID: 9737641
"In dogs, the species most sensitive to statins, cerivastatin caused erosions and
hemorrhages in the gastrointestinal tract, bleeding in the brain stem with fibroid
degeneration of vessel walls in the choroid plexus, and lens opacity."
Subchronic toxicity of atorvastatin, a hydroxymethylglutaryl-coenzyme A reductase
inhibitor, in beagle dogs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8
864188&dopt=Abstract
Walsh KM, Albassam MA, Clarke DE.
Parke-Davis Pharmaceutical Research, Division of Warner-Lambert Company, Ann
Arbor, Michigan 48105, USA.
"The toxicity of atorvastatin (AT), an inhibitor of hydroxymethylglutaryl-coenzyme A
reductase (HMG), was evaluated in beagle dogs. hemorrhage in gallbladder and brain,
demyelination of optic nerve, and skeletal muscle necrosis"
Finally, on memory loss and statins: Sworn testimony from the Baycol trial in Corpus
Christi, Texas. From the transcript of the AM Session on 03-05-03, in the case Hollis
Haltom Vs. Bayer Corporation. Testifying under oath,., in response to the plaintiff's
attorney's question, "What is your current position at Bayer?", LAWRENCE POSNER,
M.D of BAYER stated: "I'm the -- currently I'm the head of worldwide regulatory affairs
for our prescription drug business, which means I have responsibility in somewhere
between 60 and 100 countries where we sell products for registrations, compliance,
things of that nature." Excerpts from the trial transcript follow, with the Q indicating
counsel's Question, and the A indicating Dr. Posner's Answer:
Q. So there are some concerns addressed here back in 1995 about testing up to .8. And do
you know what the nature of the concern was?
A. Yes. It was related to a side effect that occurred in the brain.
Q. Of what kind of animal?
A. It occurred in the brain of dogs.
Q. Okay. So there was a side effect that occurred in dogs, and then there was a concern
about whether you wanted to go forward and test at this higher dose level in human
beings, given what you had learned about the dogs, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now, did you just say, well, let's forget about these concerns and we'll go ahead
and put .8 on the market anyway, or did you do some further analysis that was not
mentioned the other day?
A. Yes. The authors of this had -- they had two concerns. One concern was the toxicity
that they found in the brain of dogs. But the other was that they had no way to identify
this and who might be at risk before it happened. So there was no way to detect that
someone was at risk for this side effect.
[skip some testimony on other topics]
Q. Do you remember in one kind of animal there had been some studies done that there
could be a particular kind of problem with one kind of animal?
A. Oh, yeah. Yes, from the -- that's correct, from the toxicology studies.
Q. Okay. And were you able to demonstrate to your own satisfaction, to SmithKline's
satisfaction, to the FDA's satisfaction, that that particular problem that showed up with
that kind of animal is not something that happens in human beings?
A. Yes. We did it -- we did it by explaining the toxicology data. We also explained it on
the basis of kinetic data. That actually at the higher levels of drug, what happens is a
certain amount of drug is bound to proteins in the body that circulate; and therefore, is
not -- cannot cause side effects. And actually, a much smaller proportion of the drug is
free. And that what you corrected for that, you actually found out that the margins of
safety were in fact greater than you would predict just from the animal data.
Q. And as you move forward then and got approval and sold Baycol from 1997 through
2001, did that problem that had shown up with that one kind of animal ever become a
problem with human beings?
A. It was actually shown with other statins as well. It wasn't unique to cerivastatin. It was
a problem -- it was identified early on with lovastatin and some of the others. In fact, for
none of the statins did it ever predict for any clinical problem or toxicity.
Q. So these animals would have that same problem regardless of which statin -- or at
least with other statins?
A. Certainly with lovastatin it was true.
Q. But when it came time to human beings, that just wasn't something that happened to
human beings?
A. And I think today no one pays much attention to it.
If adverse effects are detected, the patient should request that the doctor report them to
the FDA and the NIH-funded Statin Study. This request to the doctor can be made in
writing, similar to the example below:
To my physician,
I believe that my symptoms may be due to the adverse effects associated with
cholesterol-lowering statin drugs. I need your help to understand the cause of my
symptoms, treatment options, and the prognosis for my recovery.
Please review the references below, published medical studies that show similar
problems associated with statin drugs. These are made available via the National
Institutes of Health (NIH, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Entrez/) library of
biomedical journal citations and other major repositories of medical research.
Also, I am respectfully requesting that you file an adverse effects report with the
FDA (http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/how.htm), and that you please send a copy
of the report to the to the NIH-funded Statin Study, attention: Dr. Beatrice
Golomb, Principal Investigator.
Statin Study website: http://medicine.ucsd.edu/statin/
Statin Study contact info: http://medicine.ucsd.edu/statin/contactinfo.html
UCSD STATIN STUDY E-MAIL ADDRESS: statinstudy@ucsd.edu
MAILING ADDRESS: UCSD Statin Study 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-
0995
PHONE NUMBER: (858) 558-4950
What are the names of the Statin drugs?
The Cholesterol-lowering Statin Drug Names: Lipitor, Crestor, Mevacor, Pravachol,
Zocor, Lescol, and Baycol, aka atorvastatin, rosuvastatin, cerivastatin, fluvastatin,
lovastatin, pravastatin, and simvastatin; This class of drugs is also known as HMG-CoA
Reductase Inhibitors, short for 3-Hydroxy-3-Methyl-Glutaryl Coenzyme A Reductase.
> Again you have a remarkable ability to not see the point. Your claim of > 5.2 per 100,000 in the general population having amnesia was totally false > and thus can not be compared to Lipitor PI where all forms of amnesia were > included - for example those probably caused by sleeping pills or > accidents. They did not say TGA in the PI. They said amnesia. And you said > amnesia. Talk to Harris about the 5.2, that was his post, not mine. Sorry that doesn't fit with your "statin belief" defensiveness, but that is a perception problem you have.
> Bill > [quoted text clipped - 250 lines] >>>>>>>>> > fairuse >>>>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com Bill - 11 Aug 2005 05:38 GMT >>>>>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about >>>>>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > This is patently untrue. You are simply unable to understand. TGA is not as a whole amnesia. By definition it lasts less than 24 hours. You husband's amnesia, for example, has lasted over 24 hours.
Or are you claiming that the amnesia symptoms due to Lipitor are TGA and therefore last less than 24 hours? http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro02/web1/mwhite.html
http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic380.htm
Further you did not address the main point. You claimed that amnesia occurs at the rate of 5.2/100,000 in the US population. This was false and your conclusions from that were false. The number was for TGA. This is shown in the quote above.
Bill
> You are on record having commented vehemently over the memory loss FAQ many > many times. [quoted text clipped - 884 lines] >>>>>>>>>> > fairuse >>>>>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com Bill - 10 Aug 2005 13:14 GMT >>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about >>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > disability. Please point me to that post you made, I would like to print it > out and show it to him. Why did you find the need to change the subject? Here was my original post.
"No one here denies that statins have bad effects and in very rare cases - perhaps one in a million - permanetly debilating ones. So you are wrong again if you imply that I do not acknowledge that.
You are the only one here who will not acknolwadge that statins may a stop debilating effects in some cases and may save lives."
Instead of addressing any of that at all you thought bringing up your husband was sufficient. Why? That has nothing to do with any of the above. It just demonstrates you lack of ability to think rationally about this subject.
I have acknowledge that statins have side effects. You repeat your claim I don't. But I just did. What does your husband have to do with any of that?
You do not acknowledge that statins have benefits. Your husband has everything to do that.
I have expressed sympathy before but that has nothing to do with anything and if you do not want to accept that, OK.
Bill
>> You are the only one here who will not acknolwadge that statins may a stop >> debilating effects in some cases and may save lives. [quoted text clipped - 240 lines] >>>>>> > fairuse >>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com Sharon Hope - 11 Aug 2005 04:35 GMT >>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about >>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Why did you find the need to change the subject? Here was my original > post. Here, you must mean the OT subject? "Stopping statins is bad for your health"?
> "No one here denies that statins have bad effects and in very rare > ases - [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > above. It just demonstrates you lack of ability to think rationally about > this subject. You seem to prefer your "pro-statin belief" answer to the question why, which you imagined and projected on me (or do you hear voices?) over my direct answer to why, which is somehow then not an acceptable answer.
Again, that "pro-statin belief system" is so in control of your mind that you cannot perceive anything that does not fit your predetermined pattern of what the world should look like. You have incredible difficulty acknowledging PREVENTABLE DISABLING AND DEBILITATING ADVERSE EFFECTS OF STATINS.
No matter how often you hear it, read it, see it, your "pro-statin belief system" causes you to believe it doesn't exist.
It does exist. In my life, my family, my home it exists 24x7. In Zee's life it is 24x7. In many, many others it is 24x7, and then there are those who are coping with the loss of loved ones due to statin induced rhabdomyolysis, or statin unmasked ALS, or other problems.
You, however, will read this and claim never to have heard of it - because your perceptions have been short-circuited by that "pro-statin belief system" you greet people with.
> I have acknowledge that statins have side effects. You repeat your claim I > don't. But I just did. What does your husband have to do with any of that? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I have expressed sympathy before but that has nothing to do with anything > and if you do not want to accept that, OK. Check the posts, you were so confused with your "pro-statin belief system" that you mentioned my statin damage, not his. He is the one who took Lipitor 10 mg/day for 4 years, resulting in over 7 1/2 years of pain and disability and with no indication of this resolving completely.
> Bill > [quoted text clipped - 248 lines] >>>>>>> > fairuse >>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com Bill - 11 Aug 2005 05:44 GMT >>>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about >>>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > acknowledging PREVENTABLE DISABLING AND DEBILITATING ADVERSE EFFECTS OF > STATINS. I have already acknowleded that numerous times. You just are unable to here it.
Do you acknowledge that statins help people some times?
> No matter how often you hear it, read it, see it, your "pro-statin belief > system" causes you to believe it doesn't exist. Again you claim I have a position I do not have. What do you mean by a "pro-statin belief system."
I agree that statins are not for everyone.
Do you agree that statins are for some people?
> It does exist. In my life, my family, my home it exists 24x7. In Zee's > life it is 24x7. In many, many others it is 24x7, and then there are those [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > your perceptions have been short-circuited by that "pro-statin belief > system" you greet people with. As you can see by the above this is false.
>> I have acknowledge that statins have side effects. You repeat your claim I >> don't. But I just did. What does your husband have to do with any of that? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Lipitor 10 mg/day for 4 years, resulting in over 7 1/2 years of pain and > disability and with no indication of this resolving completely. I have no idea of what you are talking about or why it is important. Again I have no idea what you are talking about.
Bill
>> Bill >> [quoted text clipped - 244 lines] >>>>>>>> > fairuse >>>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com George Conklin - 10 Aug 2005 21:19 GMT > > Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about > > statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who have [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Bill One in a million? Are you kidding? 1 per hundred would be considered good results in drug tests.
Bill - 11 Aug 2005 00:56 GMT >> > Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about >> > statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > One in a million? Are you kidding? 1 per hundred would be considered > good results in drug tests. You are saying 1 per every 100 hundred people taking Lipitor has permanetly debilating side effects from statins. You are just wrong. Numerous trials have never found this. Provide one example of one that has.
Bill
|
|