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Medical Forum / General / General / August 2005

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stopping statins is bad for your health

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outrider - 07 Aug 2005 19:50 GMT
May 17, 2005

STOPPING STATINS IS BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH!

By Red Flags Columnist, Dr. Malcolm Kendrick

A kind reader just sent me a link to an article in
Geriatrics

It was entitled, 'stopping statins is bad for your
health.' I'm afraid
to say that it isn't new news, as it came out in
October last year, but
it is news to me. And it is such a mind-bogglingly
stupid article that
it demands some comment.

It was written by one Frederick T. Sherman, who has no
financial
connections with the pharmaceutical industry to
disclose. So here is a
little challenge to readers of Red Flags. Find the
financial connection
between Frederick T. Sherman and a statin manufacturer
and win a prize.
(The prize being a sense of smug moral satisfaction -
do you think I am
made of money?)

By the way, the fact that there is a great big banner
ad for Lipitor at
the top of the web page, and a socking great ad for
Caduet running down
the side, doesn't count. Just because Pfizer provides
advertising
revenue to a journal that Frederick T. Sherman gets
paid to write for is
far too easy.

Moving on. The main theme of this article is Bill
Clinton, and his heart
attack, and quadruple bypass. Apparently, in 1992 he
had been found to
have an LDL level of 177 - oh, my God. Luckily, his
eagle eyed doctor
had started him on Simvastatin ... in 2001. Glad to see
the medical
profession leaping into immediate action.

But naughty, naughty Bill stopped taking his statin,
and had a heart
attack in 2004. Or maybe he didn't have a heart
attack, but just had
blocked up arteries - this bit isn't too clear. Why
did Bill stop taking
his statin? Because he felt he was taking exercise and
losing weight,
and didn't need to take a statin any more.

Now, I'm not one to judge - as my mother-in-law is
wont to say, before
doling out a metaphysical death sentence - but Bill
really ought to know
better. I know that diet and exercise are supposed to
be the first
actions taken for those with high LDL levels, before
taking drugs. But
once you're on drugs, you really ought to take them
forever, and ever,
and ever.

As William T. Sherman would say:

'Clearly, long-term compliance with medications,
specifically statins,
is more important than diet and exercise alone. Drug
therapy, rather
than lifestyle modification, must become the mainstay
of therapy for the
primary and secondary prevention of CAD. The future
coronary health of
the American public depends upon Baby Boomers and
subsequent generations
taking all of their cardioprotective medications for
life.'

Read that paragraph you naughty people you. Exercise
all you like, lose
all the weight you can, but it will make no
difference. YOU MUST TAKE
YOUR STATINS. Now, go to bed and no pudding for you.

A small issue William T. Sherman noted is that, in
1992, Bill Clinton
had an LDL level of 177. In 2004, it was 114. Excuse
me, William T.
Sherman, but does it not seem odd to you that Bill
Clinton had achieved
an LDL reduction of 35%, having stopped his statin. A
35% reduction in
LDL would be considered a therapeutic 'success,' for
the statinators
amongst us.

So, without a statin Bill Clinton's LDL fell by 35%,
then he had a heart
attack. Forgive me for saying this William T. Sherman,
but to my mind
this would appear to suggest that a falling LDL level
is a risk factor
for CHD - as clearly demonstrated in the Framingham
study, amongst others.

In the unforgiving logical prison that I inhabit, the
parable of Bill
Clinton would not seem to be a warning against
stopping statins. It
seems more likely to be a warning that when your LDL
level falls, you
are in serious danger of suffering a heart attack.
However, I tend to
find that one's interpretation of events can be
clouded by external
funding issues.

Anyway, thank you to William T. Sherman for reminding
us that 'The
future coronary health of the American public depends
upon Baby Boomers
and subsequent generations taking all of their
cardioprotective
medications for life.'

There is just no answer to that - at least not before
the children have
safely gone to bed.

fairuse
www.redflagsweekly.com
Poppy - San Francisco Bay Area - 07 Aug 2005 20:02 GMT
I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my
stroke group.  I would like accurate info about whether they are worth
the risk.
Alex - 07 Aug 2005 20:23 GMT
>I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my
>stroke group.  I would like accurate info about whether they are worth
>the risk.

Ask your doctor unless you're willing to follow the advice of Chamblee
and his parrots.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 07 Aug 2005 20:54 GMT
> I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my
> stroke group.  I would like accurate info about whether they are worth
> the risk.

COMMENT:
The HPS trial showed that people who already had evidence of
cerebrovascular disease (certainly a former stroke counts) had a 33%
reduction in risk of further stroke being complaiant with 40 mg a day
of simvastatin (Zocor). That's a big reduction--- the stuff prevents
one stroke in three in this group.

So yes, nearly everyone agrees that it's worth the risk, for stroke
patients. Despite all the propaganda you hear against statins here,
most statin side effects go away if you get them, and you stop the
pill. And in any case, they are rare (severe ones in total being
considerably more rare than 1 in 50 users, and probably more like 1 in
200 users if you subtract placebo rates).

A doctor named Golomb at UCSD has been collecting 1000 people to run a
statin side effect trial. That study was supposed to have been
concluded last year, and isn't yet. That tells me they managed to
collect the full 1000 people, and the trial wasn't stopped prematurely
by monitors for ethical reasons. That fact alone puts upper bounds on
how many severe side effects they could have seen. If the trial was
well-run and properly run, this number cannot have been large.

SBH
outrider - 07 Aug 2005 23:10 GMT
> > I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my
> > stroke group.  I would like accurate info about whether they are worth
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of simvastatin (Zocor). That's a big reduction--- the stuff prevents
> one stroke in three in this group.

What type of stroke?

And the other?

> So yes, nearly everyone agrees that it's worth the risk, for stroke
> patients. Despite all the propaganda you hear against statins here,
> most statin side effects go away if you get them, and you stop the
> pill. And in any case, they are rare (severe ones in total being
> considerably more rare than 1 in 50 users, and probably more like 1 in
> 200 users if you subtract placebo rates).

One in 50...  And how many MILLIONS are taking statins?

> A doctor named Golomb at UCSD has been collecting 1000 people to run a
> statin side effect trial. That study was supposed to have been
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> SBH

I am one who has had life-altering, disabling side effects from
statins. Now, four years after BAYCOL recall I have yet to recover well
enough to work at my former profession (journalist: reporter, news
photograher) or work with any predicability more than about 15 hours a
MONTH. I also cannot command the very good hourly wage my exceptional
skills drew. I have lost language function; and my vision is very bad.
I have lived on my cashed in savings and pension, sold everything I own
but for a bed, 2 chairs, a computer, and an 18 year old car. I on about
$800 a month, of my own money, until I am eligible for a somewhat
smaller sum at 65. It takes ingenuity to live well on this.
Fortunately, I have that. I regularly take goods including food, from
dumpsters in my neighbourhood. What I can't use I sell to consignment
shops.

Here is a partial list of my ADVERSE EFFECTS on STATINS:

Pancreatitis, gall bladder disease, helicobactor pylori ulcer, myopathy
and rhabdomyolysis, tendon and ligament damage, worsening of a
pre-existing back condition (2 instrumented fusions), cognitive
damage--many people with similar have been MRId with lesions and
atrophy, aphasia, short term memory loss, working memory difficulty,
transient global amnesia, permanent vision damage. This is a list
compiled from known statin adverse effects. I've probably forgotten
something.

Dr. Golomb is the P.I. of the 5 year NIH funded Statin Study. She and
her team of researchers are investagating the ADVERSE EFFECTS of
statins. Dr. Golomb has had other very demanding considerations of
late. But we statin-injured know she will soon return with renewed
vigour to continue her work.

This is Dr. Golomb's website. Her researchers would love to hear from
you with your experience of statins. They have questionnaires they will
mail to you; and packages of information on how to deal with statin
side effects. They will, at your request, contact your doctors on your
behalf if they do not acknowledge your symptoms might be coming from
your statin. Golomb et al have done this for thousands of people from
all over the world, apart from her study participants. Including me.

STATIN STUDY website
contact information within
http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/index.htm

Dr. Beatrice Golomb's cv:
http://medicine.ucsd.edu/faculty/golomb/

   Statin Adverse Effects: Implications for the Elderly
   by Beatrice A. Golomb, M.D., Ph.D.

   Geriatric Times         May/June 2004         Vol. V         Issue 3

   Statins, or 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl-CoA reductase inhibitors
(e.g., atorvastatin [Lipitor], simvastatin [Zocor]), are among the
best-selling prescription drugs in the world and are widely viewed as
very safe and effective. Their benefits to coronary artery disease have
been copiously documented and are incontrovertible. In addition,
statins have been shown to benefit survival in a large study of
middle-aged men with, or at high risk for, heart disease (Scandinavian
Simvastatin Survival Study Group, 1994). Nonetheless, all drugs have
potential adverse reactions despite their potential benefits.
Understanding these risks is vitally important, particularly in elderly
patients in whom both risks and benefits differ relative to younger
patients.

   Evidence suggests the balance of benefits to risks may be less
favorable in the elderly: Cholesterol becomes a less potent predictor
of cardiovascular problems, and adverse reactions from drugs, including
statins, may become more prominent. While patients at high risk for
cardiovascular disease receive mortality benefit from statins in
studies predominating in middle-aged men (Scandinavian Simvastatin
Survival Study Group, 1994), no trend toward survival benefit is seen
in elderly patients at high risk for cardiovascular disease (Shepherd
et al., 2002). A less favorable risk-benefit profile may particularly
hold for patients older than 85, in whom benefits may be more
attenuated and risks more amplified (Weverling-Rijnsburger et al.,
1997). In fact, in this older group, higher cholesterol has been linked
observationally to improved survival. This paper will review a
selection of the risks and adverse effects of statins that have special
implications for elderly patients.

   Muscle Problems

   Muscle problems are the most common reported adverse effects of
statins, according to an observational database maintained by the
University of California at San Diego Statin Study group. Perhaps the
most feared adverse effect of statins is rhabdomyolysis--a condition in
which there is severe breakdown of muscle tissue that may be toxic to
the kidneys and result in kidney failure or death. The muscle breakdown
commonly leads to a strong elevation in blood levels of muscle enzyme
creatine kinase (CK). Creatine kinase levels often exceed 10 times the
upper limit of normal in cases of frank rhabdomyolysis. Fatal
rhabdomyolysis occurred with increased frequency with cerivastatin
(Baycol) when used at higher doses or in combination with gemfibrozil
(Lopid); cerivastatin was removed from the U.S. market in 2001.
Rhabdomyolysis occurs with all statins, although the actual frequency
of occurrence is quite low.

   Physicians are most familiar with rhabdomyolysis, and many suppose
that for muscle pain to be statin-associated, it must induce muscle
symptoms throughout the body coupled with elevation of CK levels.
However, this reflects only one manifestation of statin-associated
muscle symptoms. Some patients have only new focal pain or new fatigue,
and may have mild or no elevation in CK levels. In some instances these
symptoms progress to rhabdomyolysis--one reason to take these symptoms
seriously--but many times they do not.

   An important double-blind, crossover biopsy study showed that some
patients receiving statin therapy with non-CK-elevating muscle pain
have objectively documentable, partially reversible mitochondrial
myopathy (Phillips et al., 2002). Even in the absence of rhabdomyolysis
or CK elevation, major effects on function and quality of life may
occur (Golomb et al., 2003). It is important to note that in both our
experience and that of others, muscle symptoms precipitated by statins
may not in all cases completely recover; this is consistent with the
finding that, pathologically, the myopathy may not completely reverse.

   Adverse muscle problems from statins, in addition to
rhabdomyolysis, take a variety of forms (Table). Shortness of breath
sometimes accompanies statin-associated muscle problems. The
"respiratory exchange ratio"--the ratio of carbon dioxide exhaled per
oxygen inhaled--is altered in people with statin myotoxicity (Phillips
et al., 2004). Occasionally, shortness of breath is the predominant
symptom. Patients may experience marked shortness of breath that occurs
following initiation of statin therapy and is sustained while statins
are continued for which no etiology is identified on extensive
cardiopulmonary workup. These symptoms resolve completely with statin
discontinuation.

   Muscle problems associated with statins may be more common among
the elderly. In the 2002 American College of Cardiology/American Heart
Association/National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute Clinical Advisory
on the Use and Safety of Statins, Pasternak et al. noted the following
factors that may increase the risk for statin-associated myopathy:

       * advanced age (especially >80 years, women > men);
       * small body frame and frailty;
       * multisystem disease;
       * multiple medications;
       * perioperative periods; and
       * concurrent use of certain medications.

   These factors are especially common among the elderly, which places
them at increased risk for development of muscle problems with statins.

   Muscle problems associated with statins may be more debilitating
among the elderly. When muscle problems occur, they may have more
impact on the elderly. Elderly patients more commonly have already
declined in muscle strength and function; and are often already on, or
perched near, the steep part of the curve relating muscle strength to
physical function, independence and the ability to perform activities
of daily living. Thus, the same amount or proportion of compromise in
muscle function may have a substantially more profound impact on
quality of life in elderly patients. In addition, reductions in
physical function, indexed by reductions in lower extremity function,
are linked to self-reported disability, hospitalizations, admissions to
nursing homes and mortality from all causes (Guralnik et al., 2000,
1995, 1994; Penninx et al., 2000). Reductions in lower extremity
function are associated with reduced physical activity (McDermott et
al., 2002), so that such patients may lose the protection that exercise
is reported to afford against a host of conditions.

   Cognitive Loss

   Cognitive problems also occur with statins and may also have more
impact in elderly patients. Two randomized trials that were designed to
assess cognitive effects of statins have shown worsening in cognitive
function (Muldoon et al., 2002, 2000). In addition, several case
reports (King et al., 2003, 2001; Orsi et al., 2001) and one large case
series (involving 60 patients) (Wagstaff et al., 2003) have reported
deleterious cognitive effects of statins on memory and cognitive
function.

   Although not expressly designed to assess cognition, results from
the Heart Protection Study (HPS) (Heart Protection Study Collaborative
Group, 2002) and PROSPER trial (Shepherd et al., 2002) did not show
that statin therapy had favorable or deleterious effects on cognitive
measures that were tested. Several factors may help to explain the
discrepancy between findings from these large and smaller trials
targeted at testing cognition. First, different measures of cognition
were used that may not have tapped the areas in which problems occur.
The telephone survey measure in the HPS, for instance, would not have
captured visuomotor coordination and processing speed, which the other
trials suggested may be particularly affected.

   Second, the large trials enrolled people at high risk for
cardiovascular disease who experience benefit from statins to nonfatal
stroke, which may lead to improvements in cognition that may help to
balance out harms to cognition from other mechanisms. Although there
are trends toward increases in fatal stroke with statins in most of the
large statin trials, those who have died cannot complete cognitive
surveys. The impact on total number of strokes was unaffected in the
PROSPER trial with its sole focus on the elderly population. In the
PROSPER trial, the number of reduced transient ischemic attacks and
nonfatal strokes was actually matched by a similar number of increased
fatal strokes.

   Finally, the HPS used what is termed an "active run-in." For six
weeks, participants considered for enrollment were placed on
simvastatin, and those who were not fully compliant were dropped from
the study. Participants who perceived problems on the drug, including
cognitive problems, may have dropped the study themselves or skipped
pills intentionally. In addition, participants who developed memory
problems may have had trouble remembering to take the pills even if
they did not recognize deterioration in cognitive function. This run-in
process may have excluded participants who developed cognitive problems
on the drug, selecting only those who did not experience problems. Over
one-third of those who were interested in enrolling were excluded
following this compliance run-in.

   Because statins reduce nonfatal stroke (and cognition is obviously
not measured in people who have experienced fatal stroke), benefits by
statins for cognitive function in those in whom a stroke was averted
might be expected. It must be emphasized that the randomized trial
evidence has, to date, uniformly failed to show cognitive benefits by
statins and has supported no effect or frank and significant harm to
cognitive function.

   Analogous to the case for muscle adverse effects, the impact of
cognitive adverse effects from statins, when they occur, may be more
profound in the elderly. Elderly patients have more commonly already
experienced some decline in cognitive function, and more commonly are
in a vulnerable range in which additional impairment can have an impact
on independence and safety. Indeed, a number of studies show that even
modest reductions in cognition in the elderly are linked to increased
mortality, even when the reductions remain within the nondemented
range, and even when other health factors have been controlled for
(Bassuk et al., 2000; Frisoni et al., 1999; Korten et al., 1999; Smits
et al., 1999). In this context, adverse cognitive effects must be taken
seriously not only for their intrinsic impact on quality of life, but
for their potentially weighty implications for mortality.

   Other Adverse Effects

   A large variety of other adverse effects have been reported with
statins, including (but not limited to) gastrointestinal and
neurological effects, psychiatric problems, immune effects (e.g.,
lupus-like syndrome), erectile dysfunction and gynecomastia (breast
enlargement in men), rash and skin problems, and sleep problems.

   Of particular note for the elderly population, the PROSPER trial
found a significant 25% increase in incident cancer in participants
over age 70 randomized to statin therapy versus placebo (Shepherd et
al., 2002). Because statins have been reported to cause cancer in
animals, the significant increase in cancer cannot be dismissed as
necessarily a fluke. While a similar increase has not been seen in
studies of statins in younger participants, older people have poorer
stores of the cancer-protecting antioxidant nutrients that low-density
lipoprotein cholesterol helps to transport to tissue (so that the
increase in risk may occur selectively in elderly). Even if the
fractional change in risk were similar, the elderly have a higher risk
of cancer, increasing the number of cancer events that would manifest.

   Low cholesterol is also linked to infection, including development
of postoperative infection (Leardi et al., 2000) and predicts mortality
and adverse outcomes in hospitalized patients (Crook et al., 1999).
While some of this could be due to illness causing lower cholesterol,
it may also be that low cholesterol contributes to illness; indeed,
animal studies suggest lipoproteins may serve to protect against
bacterial endotoxin-induced death (Read et al., 1993).

   Statins may produce irritability or short temper in some people, a
problem that occurs with statin therapy and resolves with its
discontinuation (Golomb et al., 2004). For elderly patients who depend
on others for assistance, irritability and its impact on the
relationship with caregivers may have special implications.

   Heart failure may also occur in patients taking statin therapy. In
some people, the myopathic effects of statins may impair heart pumping
function (Silver et al., 2003). However, in patients with reduced
pumping function due to coronary artery blockages, statins may help
heart pumping by improving blood flow to the heart (Node et al., 2003).
It depends on the person whether benefit or harm dominates with statin
therapy.

   Discussion

   Observational studies show that as age increases within the elderly
age range, high cholesterol flattens then reverses as a risk factor for
mortality (Weverling-Rijnsburger et al., 1997). Although it remains to
be fully clarified whether these findings have relevance to
cholesterol-lowering treatment, the exclusive major randomized trial of
statins conducted in the elderly does nothing to dispel a possible
causal association, as it did not show benefit of statins to survival.
The impact was completely neutral on mortality despite selecting for an
elderly population at only moderately older age and selecting for
particularly high risk of heart disease--the elderly group in whom
greater benefits and lower risks would be expected (Shepherd et al.,
2002). There are reasons for concern that still older people--those
elderly not selecting for high cardiac risk and those who are frailer
than clinical trials generally select--might fare less well. Caution
should be exercised in provision of statins as with all treatments in
elderly patients. Any time a patient develops a new problem or
worsening of an existing problem, the medication list should be
reviewed and a possible contribution by medications should be
considered. This principle is by no means confined to statins. It is
particularly true in elderly patients who may be on many medications
with interacting effects, and in whom ability to withstand adverse drug
reactions may be attenuated.

   Acknowledgement

   Dr. Golomb would like to thank Tram Dang for research assistance
and Janis Ritchie, R.N., for administrative assistance.

   Dr. Golomb is on the faculty of the department of medicine and
family and preventive medicine at the University of California, San
Diego. Her research focuses on the risks and benefits of medical
interventions.

   References

   Bassuk SS, Wypij D, Berkman LF (2000), Cognitive impairment and
mortality in the community-dwelling elderly. Am J Epidemiol
151(7):676-688.

   Crook MA, Velauthar U, Moran L, Griffiths W (1999),
Hypocholesterolaemia in a hospital population. Ann Clin Biochem 36(pt
5):613-616.

   Frisoni GB, Fratiglioni L, Fastbom J et al. (1999), Mortality in
nondemented subjects with cognitive impairment: the influence of
health-related factors. Am J Epidemiol 150(10):1031-1044.

   Golomb BA, Kane T, Dimsdale JA (2004), Severe irritability
associated with statin cholesterol-lowering drugs. QJM 97(4):229-235.

   Golomb BA, Yang E, Denenberg J, Criqui M (2003), Statin-associated
adverse events. P95. Presented at the 43rd Annual Conference on
Cardiovascular Disease Epidemiology and Prevention. Miami; March 5-8.

   Guralnik JM, Ferrucci L, Pieper CF et al. (2000), Lower extremity
function and subsequent disability: consistency across studies,
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short physical performance battery. J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci
55(4):M221-M231.

   Guralnik JM, Ferrucci L, Simonsick EM et al. (1995),
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   Guralnik JM, Simonsick EM, Ferrucci L et al. (1994), A short
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on cognitive function and psychological well-being. Am J Med
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   Muldoon MF, Ryan CM, Flory JD, Manuck SB (2002), Effects of
simvastatin on cognitive functioning. Presented at the American Heart
Association Scientific Sessions. Chicago; Nov. 17-20.

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therapy improves cardiac function and symptoms in patients with
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memory loss. Pharmacotherapy 21(6):767-769.

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   Shepherd J, Blauw GJ, Murphy MB et al. (2002), Pravastatin in
elderly individuals at risk of vascular disease (PROSPER): a randomised
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   Silver MA, Langsjoen PH, Szabo S et al. (2003), Statin
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   Smits CH, Deeg DJ, Kriegsman DM, Schmand B (1999), Cognitive
functioning and health as determinants of mortality in an older
population. Am J Epidemiol 150(9):978-986.

   Wagstaff LR, Mitton MW, Arvik BM, Doraiswamy PM (2003),
Statin-associated memory loss: analysis of 60 case reports and review
of the literature. Pharmacotherapy 23(7):871-880.

   Weverling-Rijnsburger AW, Blauw GJ, Lagaay AM et al. (1997), Total
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mmlevy46@hotmail.com - 07 Aug 2005 23:36 GMT
the 33% figure you quote--is that relative risk benefit or absolute
risk benefit?  thanks
Jim Chinnis - 09 Aug 2005 16:35 GMT
mmlevy46@hotmail.com wrote in part:

>the 33% figure you quote--is that relative risk benefit or absolute
>risk benefit?  thanks

Even in a study lasting a few years, it would be impossible to get
thousands of subjects who had higher than 33% chance of a stroke
during the study!
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
J.C. - 09 Aug 2005 16:53 GMT
> mmlevy46@hotmail.com wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed. I
would die before I got back on that stuff.

--
J.C.
Jim Chinnis - 09 Aug 2005 17:42 GMT
"J.C." <ariverrunsthruit@hotmail.com> wrote in part:

>> mmlevy46@hotmail.com wrote in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed. I
>would die before I got back on that stuff.

Non sequitor. Are you in the right thread?
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
(PeteCresswell) - 09 Aug 2005 17:59 GMT
Per J.C.:
>I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed.

How long were you on it and how rapidly did the symptoms progress?
Signature

PeteCresswell

J.C. - 09 Aug 2005 19:22 GMT
> Per J.C.:
> >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed.
>
> How long were you on it and how rapidly did the symptoms progress?
> --
> PeteCresswell

About a total of 18 months. I first noticed a pain in my left shoulder. Then
it got to where my left arm would hurt if I did something like pick up a
piece of trash from the yard, or pull a dead limb from a tree. Then it got
to where just a sudden movement, like flynching when a bee got close or just
about anything like that would bring me to tears it would hurt so bad. After
about 7 months the same thing started with my right side. Along about that
time my wife, who is a nurse, read in one of the medical alert things they
get that statins can cause serious side effects in certain people. I stopped
taking Lovastatin immediately and it took about two years to get myself back
to normal. The doctor put me on some kind of substitute medicine. I just
threw it away and never got the refills. I've had 8 semi-annual checkups
since then and so far A-OK.

--
J.C.
(PeteCresswell) - 09 Aug 2005 21:38 GMT
Per J.C.:
>I've had 8 semi-annual checkups
>since then and so far A-OK.

Any idea what your lipid numbers were before the statin, during, and now?
Signature

PeteCresswell

J.C. - 09 Aug 2005 21:48 GMT
> Per J.C.:
> >I've had 8 semi-annual checkups
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> --
> PeteCresswell

No sir. Not a clue.

--
J.C.
Don Kirkman - 11 Aug 2005 01:04 GMT
It seems to me I heard somewhere that J.C. wrote in article
<2w6Ke.67706$_I2.46133@fe03.news.easynews.com>:

>> Per J.C.:
>> >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed.

>> How long were you on it and how rapidly did the symptoms progress?

>About a total of 18 months. I first noticed a pain in my left shoulder. Then
>it got to where my left arm would hurt if I did something like pick up a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>threw it away and never got the refills. I've had 8 semi-annual checkups
>since then and so far A-OK.

What you describe sounds to me (a non-medical person) very much like
symptoms that can come from pinched nerves, which are often related to
changes in the spine from osteoarthritis.  Has that been ruled out?
Signature

Don Kirkman

zee - 09 Aug 2005 19:23 GMT
> Per J.C.:
> >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed.
>
> How long were you on it and how rapidly did the symptoms progress?
> --
> PeteCresswell

Try your questions here Pete:
statinstudy@ucsd.edu

http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/index.htm

WHAT TO DO IF YOU THINK YOU ARE HAVING AN ADVERSE EFFECT

  1. If you have muscle pain or weakness, or brown urine (or change in
color of urine), call your doctor immediately; you will probably need
to get a "CK" test.
  2. For any symptom that is bothersome to you, call your doctor and
and schedule an appointment to discuss the symptom.
  3. If you think the effect may be caused by the drug, ask your
doctor about doing a test in which you stop the drug, or reduce the
dose; see if the effect improves.  If you and your doctor deem it is
safe to do so, you might see if the symptoms return or worsen upon
resuming the drug (sometimes a different statin drug or a lower dose,
or a non-statin drug are all that are needed).  If the doctor is
unwilling to reduce the dose, and you are willing to try to increase
the dose, you might increase the dose and see if the symptoms get
worse.  If the symptoms are severe, it is best to avoid this.  If your
doctor is very skeptical that the effect could result from the drug,
and you are willing, you can do an "n-of-1" trial in which, on the
doctor's order the pharmacy gives you placebo or drug, for at least two
months, and neither you nor your doctor are told which.  If you can say
when the problem gets worse or better, this may help persuade your
doctor.  Know that it is your health and it is always your choice
whether to take a drug.  If your physician does not take your concerns
and preferences into account, consider looking for a different
physician.
  4. If the symptoms seem related to the drug (especially if the above
testing suggests a connection) you and your doctor will need to work
together to decide whether the need for the drug exceeds the problems
and effects on quality of life that the drug produces.  The final
choice is yours.
  5. Please contact us and let us know about your side effects; the
more we know, the more we can help others.
  6. Some doctors are not familiar with the evidence that statin drugs
or cholesterol drugs can cause problems with memory, pain,
irritability, or sleep.  You may need to educate them, and we are happy
to help.

Share Your Experience
We are seeking to get information from people who have had adverse
responses to statins or to other cholesterol-lowering drugs, and also
from people who have done well on these drugs. We can learn from this
information, perhaps gaining a better understanding of who may be at
risk and who will do well with statins; and what to expect in people
who develop adverse effects (e.g. how quick or long recovery may take;
what factors predict or facilitate recovery).

Share your experience with us, via a questionnaire. This will help us
understand peoples' experiences with statins, so that we may share the
information with others. Currently, you can download the appropriate
forms to complete our questionnaire by visiting Contribute; we are in
the process of completing an online (paperless) version of the
questionnaire. If you are interested in contributing to our research
with information about your experiences on statins and have trouble
with the downloadable forms, we would love to hear from you via e-mail
or telephone (we will call you back to administer or mail the
questionnaire).

Our e-mail address is: statinstudy@ucsd.edu

Our phone number is: (858) 558-4950 x 215

Our mailing address is:

UCSD Statin Effects Study
9500 Gilman Dr. Dept. 0995
San Diego, CA 92093-0995
(PeteCresswell) - 09 Aug 2005 22:04 GMT
Per zee:
>Try your questions here Pete:
>statinstudy@ucsd.edu
>
>http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/index.htm

That looks pretty good.

Thanks.
Signature

PeteCresswell

George Conklin - 09 Aug 2005 22:52 GMT
> > Per J.C.:
> > >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost paralyzed.
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
> 9500 Gilman Dr. Dept. 0995
> San Diego, CA 92093-0995

    And what about the vastly increased chance of a cancer diagnosis in the
year following the start of statins?  If you get cancer, what do you do?
listener - 09 Aug 2005 23:59 GMT
>> > Per J.C.:
>> > >I was on Lovastatin. By the time I got off of it I was almost
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> year following the start of statins?  If you get cancer, what do you
> do?

Ummm....see an oncologist?

("vastly increased chance"?)

L.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 09 Aug 2005 20:44 GMT
> mmlevy46@hotmail.com wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

COMMENT:

Right you are. It was a relative benefit. It prevented a third of the
strokes that were set to happen, but only a small % of patients will
have second strokes, even in a secondary study.

SBH
mmlevy46@hotmail.com - 09 Aug 2005 22:20 GMT
I do not have the #'s from the study--if you do could you determine the
absolute risk, which are always more informative than the relative risk
#'s...thanks,
> > mmlevy46@hotmail.com wrote in part:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> SBH
(PeteCresswell) - 07 Aug 2005 22:23 GMT
Per Poppy - San Francisco Bay Area:
>I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my
>stroke group.  I would like accurate info about whether they are worth
>the risk.

I'm not qualified to answer the question directly, but can say that my wife and
I took two different paths.    She modified her diet/exercise and raised her HDL
from 30 to 60.  Haven't seen her lipid test results sheet so I can't say what
her computed risk factor is.    

The cardiologist who was treating me was a good friend of my late brother before
he died of a familial hypercholesterolemia-induced heart attack.    

Looking back, I probably should have sought out somebody more neutral, but as it
is, I went on Zocor per his advice.    However stuff's expensive and, even
though the risks are probably acceptable to most people; there are still risks
(and, probably, side effects).

In retrospect, I think I'd rather have tried diet/exercise under competent
supervision and then gone on a statin if that did not work out in some
reasonable timeframe.    

In fact, having just had my gall bladder out, I'm taking advantage of that
dietary cusp to try to mimic my spouse's eating.  After about six months of
that, I plan to get a blood lipid profile and see what my GP says.   Maybe it's
not too late to get off of the stuff without increasing my risk factor.
Signature

PeteCresswell

(PeteCresswell) - 07 Aug 2005 22:36 GMT
Per (PeteCresswell):
>under competent
>supervision

I should add that some time ago, I naively went on my own version of a
vegetarian diet - with no supervision.   I enjoyed the food and my HDL and LDL
numbers didn't change much - but my trigs went through the roof - as in from 169
to 452.

So competent supervision is definitely important.
Signature

PeteCresswell

Sharon Hope - 10 Aug 2005 03:32 GMT
Pete,
You mentioned having your gall bladder removed.

Were you having any muscle pain since starting on the Zocor?  Have you had
regular blood tests checking CK?

There are many reasons, I suppose, for having a gall bladder removed, but
the concern that spurred my question is this:

Of the people who suffered rhabdomyolysis, a potentially deadly adverse
effect of statins, their medical records all followed a progression of
adverse effects:
- Muscle pain, then
- gout, then
- gall bladder removal, then
- kidney and liver problems, then
- rhabdomyolysis.

For a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) on Statin Adverse Effects, see:

http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our_statins/StatinFAQ_031305wTOCv4.pdf

> Per Poppy - San Francisco Bay Area:
>>I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> it's
> not too late to get off of the stuff without increasing my risk factor.
fresh~horses - 17 Aug 2005 22:16 GMT
> Per Poppy - San Francisco Bay Area:
> >I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> --
> PeteCresswell

Did I miss where you posted your numbers Pete? If you haven't will you
consider doing that please.
Zee
(PeteCresswell) - 18 Aug 2005 00:29 GMT
Per fresh~horses:
>Did I miss where you posted your numbers Pete? If you haven't will you
>consider doing that please.

All numbers are simply from rote - entered in my Palm Pilot over the years.
I do not understand why "Tot" does not equal HDL + LDL, but these are what are
there right now.    Data corruption?    Dunno enough to have an opinion on how
plausible they are...

I'm using a mono spaced font and making the columns
with spaces, not tabs...

Date     Tot   HDL   LDL   Trigs  "Risk Factor"
-----------------------------------------------
06/1990  205    42   130   169
07/1995  236    46   153   236
03/1997  253     ?     ?   452
11/2001  258    45     ?   473

(Began Tricor)
03/2003  233    51   154   142

(Stopped Tricor, Began Zocor)
10/2003  156    49    83   118             3.2
12/2003  147    44   103   170             4.1

(Attempted unsupervised vegetarian diet)
04/2004    ?    38    73   310

(Resumed 'normal' diet)
07/2004    ?    51    97   175
03/2005    ?    50   107   186    

Signature

PeteCresswell

Robert - 18 Aug 2005 01:13 GMT
> Per fresh~horses:
> >Did I miss where you posted your numbers Pete? If you haven't will you
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> 07/2004    ?    51    97   175
> 03/2005    ?    50   107   186

You make no mention of family history or other risk conditions such as
hypertension, cigarette smoking, age.
As you can see with age comes higher levels. Diet alone to get the LDL under
100 is ideal. Let's not kid ourselves here with diet. Unless you are in
prison then simply saying that you promise to be good on diet next time
doesn't do the trick.
If you are so concerned with the meds then don't take them. Eat properly
take some fish oils and hope for the best. You might want to wait until you
get a heart attack or stroke in which there is no ambiguity on whether it
helps taking statins or not.
Statins are very expensive and you can save a lot of money and worry. You
can be the control group of those who should have taken statins but were so
worried about them and those who took them and compare notes over time.
Herman Rubin - 18 Aug 2005 02:44 GMT
>Per fresh~horses:
>>Did I miss where you posted your numbers Pete? If you haven't will you
>>consider doing that please.

>All numbers are simply from rote - entered in my Palm Pilot over the years.
>I do not understand why "Tot" does not equal HDL + LDL, but these are what are
>there right now.    Data corruption?    Dunno enough to have an opinion on how
>plausible they are...

Total cholesterol = LDL + HDL + Triglycerides/5.

The usual calculation of LDL is made from this, if
the others are within wide ranges.

Signature

This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558

fresh~horses - 18 Aug 2005 03:07 GMT
> Per fresh~horses:
> >Did I miss where you posted your numbers Pete? If you haven't will you
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there right now.    Data corruption?    Dunno enough to have an opinion on how
> plausible they are...

See a registered dietician to help you with diet Pete and an exercise
therapist for help with a progressive exercise program designed for
you. Losing weight and increasing exercise will help lower
triglycerides and raise HDL but don't try to do it on your own. You
don't have a lot of organs to spare. ; )

About diet and other cholesterol lowering options.
http://www.impostertrial.com/physician.htm

About Dr. Phillips study:
http://www.impostertrial.com/1/

If you fill out this form, be sure to tell Dr. Phillips about your gall
bladder surgery.

Zee

> I'm using a mono spaced font and making the columns
> with spaces, not tabs...
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> 07/2004    ?    51    97   175
> 03/2005    ?    50   107   186    
Bill - 07 Aug 2005 23:09 GMT
>I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my
> stroke group.  I would like accurate info about whether they are worth
> the risk.

First, that is the right question. There are  risks, and for some they are
worth it and for others not. Most problems resolve when the statin is
discontinued and the Dr. should monitor you to make sure nothing is
developing.  So it is best to work this out with your Dr.

You should see what your cholesterol numbers are. If they are bad you should
try diet and exercise first. Also, your medical history is important have you
had a heart attack or a family history of one, etc.

Bill
Jason - 07 Aug 2005 23:51 GMT
> I have been hearing about side effects from taking statins, in my
> stroke group.  I would like accurate info about whether they are worth
> the risk.

Poppy,
I advise you to read the following book since it contains some very
important information about statins. I only wish that I had read the book
before I took the first statin pill:
WHAT YOU MUST KNOW ABUT STATIN DRUGS AND THEIR NATURAL ALTERNATIVES
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.

Jason

Signature

NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Bill - 07 Aug 2005 23:24 GMT
Many people have as strong a belief in how good statins are as the people here
believe how bad they are. Neither need to be paid to write about it.

The best way to get answers is through scientific trials and let the trials
speak for themselves.

Bill

> May 17, 2005
>
[quoted text clipped - 135 lines]
> fairuse
> www.redflagsweekly.com
zee - 07 Aug 2005 23:43 GMT
> Many people have as strong a belief in how good statins are as the people here
> believe how bad they are. Neither need to be paid to write about it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Bill

What I do is not 'belief'. It is a WARNING. Do not take your doctor's
word without doing some investigating yourself.

If the doctors (of those who post) knew what the adverse effects were
and how they are manifested we wouldn't see query after query after
query on these newsgroups. Year after year after year. One person after
another into the thousands with PREVENTABLE statin injury. Some of this
injury lingering years after stopping the statin. Some researchers now
saying; statins may be triggering PARKINSON'S, musclular dystrophies,
CPT2 and other metabolic disorders, Multiple Sclerosis & Guillan Barre
Syndrome like disorders.

It's all here:

An 86 page PDF which you can download; primarily clincial studies from
PUBMED. All on statin ADVERSE EFFECTS. More every day as finally...the
injured are being listened to and researchers like Dr. Golomb, Dr.
Baker, Dr. Tarnopolosky, Dr. Vladutiu, Dr. Phillips, Dr. di Mauro are
being funded to find out__what__doctors like Steve Harris refused to
acknowledge.

http://www.freewebs.com/stoppe d_our_statins/StatinFAQ_031305
wTOCv4.pdf

More pertinent information; also included in the above PDF:

Phillips PS, Phillips CT, Sullivan MJ, Naviaux RK, Haas RH.
Abstract
Statin myotoxicity is associated with changes in the cardiopulmonary
function.
Atherosclerosis. 2004 Nov;177(1):183-8.
PMID: 15488882 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en trez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&d
b=pubmed&...

Dr. Beatrice Golomb
Principal Investigator
UCSD Statin Study
http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/i ndex.htm
e-mail: statinst...@ucsd.edu

Dr. Paul Phillips
Head, Interventional Cardiology
Scripps Mercy Hospital
San Diego, CA
http://www.impostertrial.com
(Is Myopathy Part of Statin Therapy?)
e-mail: inqu...@impostertrial.com

Statins and Women:
"Do cholesterol lowering drugs benefit women?"
http://www.medicalconsumers.or g/pages/WomenandCholesterol-Lo
weringDru...
http://www.medicalconsumers.or g/pages/newsletter.html

We've been bamboozled (about cholesterol drugs)
>From Newsday, July 2004:
http://healthyskepticism.org/publications/nonmedline/2004/07 06.htm
"The risk for total mortality was not lower in women treated with
lipid-lowering drugs, regardless of whether they had prior
cardiovascular disease or not," Dr. Judith M.E. Walsh and Dr. Michael
Pignone wrote.

Do statins have a role in primary prevention?
http://www.ti.ubc.ca/pages/let ter48.htm
"What is the evidence of benefit for primary prevention in women?
There were 10,990 women in the primary prevention trials (28% of the
total). Only coronary events were reported for women, but when these
were pooled they were not reduced by statin therapy, RR 0.98
[0.85-1.12]. Thus the coronary benefit in primary prevention trials
appears to be limited to men,..."

~~~~~~~~~~

> > May 17, 2005
> >
[quoted text clipped - 135 lines]
> > fairuse
> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Bill - 08 Aug 2005 00:01 GMT
>> Many people have as strong a belief in how good statins are as the people
>> here
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> What I do is not 'belief'. It is a WARNING.

They are not inconsistent. I suspect you do believe that statins have serious
side effects and these are not being made public enough. I suspect the writer
of the original artical believes that people are not being sufficiently warned
about the dangers of stopping statins.

Bill

> Do not take your doctor's
> word without doing some investigating yourself.
[quoted text clipped - 209 lines]
>> > fairuse
>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Sharon Hope - 10 Aug 2005 04:21 GMT
Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who have
experienced actual statin adverse effects - simply because their experience
and their doctors' diagnoses do not fit that "belief" which is being blindly
(and deafly) followed.

The only way those with such firmly entrenched beliefs can even begin to
acknowledge the statin damaged is by assigning them a "counter belief" and
then debating between that straw-dog imagined belief and their own -
carrying on elaborate philosophical debates.

Never will they acknowledge the statin pain, statin damage, statin
disability, nor will they deal with the symptoms.  The only feel safe
telling the statin disabled. "I suspect you do believe that statins [fill in
the ridiculous, but easy to debate accusation here]."

Never will you ever catch these statin 'true believers' in saying anything
remotely like, "Gosh, I really hope you feel better someday.  How sad that
you lost your ability to support yourself at 53, and you lost your home, and
your medical insurance.  We really ought to see if we can warn others before
they experience these same PREVENTABLE side effects from statins.  Maybe,
too, there might be a way to fund some research into treating people to
recovery when they do experience such drastic side effects."  No, they seem
to blame the victim for the "beliefs" they have projected upon them in their
own imaginations.

It is as if they might arrive on the scene of a train wreck, ignore the
shrieks for help, and stand there in the  midst of the wreckage suspecting
that these vocal folks must be harboring anti-transportation beliefs.

>>> Many people have as strong a belief in how good statins are as the
>>> people here
[quoted text clipped - 228 lines]
>>> > fairuse
>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Bill - 10 Aug 2005 04:31 GMT
> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who have
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> shrieks for help, and stand there in the  midst of the wreckage suspecting
> that these vocal folks must be harboring anti-transportation beliefs.

No one here denies that statins have bad effects and in very rare cases  -
perhaps one in a million - permanetly debilating ones. So you are wrong again
if you imply that I do not acknowledge that.

You are the only one here who will not acknolwadge that statins may a stop
debilating effects in some cases and may save lives.

You are also often very wrong many times on any evidence you present and are
simply unable to think rationally about this subject.

Bill

>>>> Many people have as strong a belief in how good statins are as the people
>>>> here
[quoted text clipped - 228 lines]
>>>> > fairuse
>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Sharon Hope - 10 Aug 2005 04:52 GMT
>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> perhaps one in a million - permanetly debilating ones. So you are wrong
> again if you imply that I do not acknowledge that.

I must have missed that acknowledgement of my husband's 7+ years of pain and
disability.  Please point me to that post you made, I would like to print it
out and show it to him.

> You are the only one here who will not acknolwadge that statins may a stop
> debilating effects in some cases and may save lives.
>
> You are also often very wrong many times on any evidence you present and
> are simply unable to think rationally about this subject.

The citations I post are peer-reviewed published studies.  Your problems
with those studies were not shared by the editorial panel approving their
publication.

> Bill
>
[quoted text clipped - 230 lines]
>>>>> > fairuse
>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Bill - 10 Aug 2005 05:13 GMT
>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> disability.  Please point me to that post you made, I would like to print it
> out and show it to him.

I don't know that first hand. But I accept that. So you may print this out.

>> You are the only one here who will not acknolwadge that statins may a stop
>> debilating effects in some cases and may save lives.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> with those studies were not shared by the editorial panel approving their
> publication.

That's false. It is not that publications were not peer reviewed - it is that
you claimed facts from them that were not there. For example, you claimed that
.0052% of people in the US have amnesia. Provide the quote.

And your inability to see these kinds of things is remarkable and demonstrates
your inability to think rationally on this subject.

This is the original source by the way:

"We studied the clinical characteristics of transient global amnesia (TGA) in
277 patients with an average follow-up of 80 months. The syndrome occurred
most frequently after age 50. There was a history of migraine in 14.1% and
cerebrovascular diseases in 11.2% of patients, but these conditions were
usually not temporally linked to TGA. Characteristic antecedent events and
activity such as exertion existed in 33.4%. The incidence of TGA was 5.2 per
100,000 per year in Rochester, MN. Although 23.8% of the patients had
recurrent episodes, they were not at increased risk for subsequent stroke."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=87202323


Note, they studied transient global amnesia not all forms of amnesia. It was
also just in Rochester and we have no idea of the age distribution to compare
with other studies. We also have no idea of confidence intervals on accuracy.

Bill

>> Bill
>>
[quoted text clipped - 230 lines]
>>>>>> > fairuse
>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Sharon Hope - 10 Aug 2005 05:33 GMT
>>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
>>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> compare with other studies. We also have no idea of confidence intervals
> on accuracy.

Which "other" forms of amnesia have you seen documented as a result of
statin adverse effects?

> Bill
>
[quoted text clipped - 238 lines]
>>>>>>> > fairuse
>>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Bill - 10 Aug 2005 05:49 GMT
>>>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
>>>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
> Which "other" forms of amnesia have you seen documented as a result of
> statin adverse effects?

None. I have never seen TGA documented as a result of Lipitor either. Is it
your claim that it is?

Again you have a remarkable ability to not see the point. Your claim of 5.2
per 100,000 in the general population having amnesia was totally false and
thus can not be compared to Lipitor PI where all forms of amnesia were
included - for example those probably caused by sleeping pills or accidents.
They did not say TGA in the PI. They said amnesia. And you said amnesia.

Bill

>> Bill
>>
[quoted text clipped - 234 lines]
>>>>>>>> > fairuse
>>>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Sharon Hope - 11 Aug 2005 04:26 GMT
>>>>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
>>>>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
> None. I have never seen TGA documented as a result of Lipitor either. Is
> it your claim that it is?

This is patently untrue.

You are on record having commented vehemently over the memory loss FAQ many
many times.

You are on record having commented on my many posts about Dr. Graveline's
two books, primarly about transient global amnesia due to Lipitor many many
times.

You are on record having commented on my husband's multiple witnessed
episodes of transient global amnesia due to Lipitor many many times.

Is your "pro-statin belief system" so threatened that it is causing you
hysterical blindness and blackouts - AFTER you respond to something that you
later claim you never heard of?

Just to refresh your memory, although it will trigger your  "pro-statin
belief system":

AMNESIA & STATINS

Frequently Asked Question: Amnesia is one of the Lipitor side

effects reported by Pfizer on the Physician's Information, where

can I find out more about people who have had amnesia

episodes while taking the drug?

Lipitor, Thief of Memory, by Duane Graveline M.D.

Dr. Graveline, retired family MD, USAF Flight Surgeon, researcher in space
medicine

and US Astronaut, who suffered adverse effects from Lipitor, maintains
several websites

and is working on a second book about statin adverse effects, including
statin-related

memory loss and amnesia at:

www.spacedoc.net (you can start here and read about his life and his books)

http://www.spacedoc.net/lipitor_thief_of_memory.html

http://www.spacedoc.net/lipitor.htm

http://www.spacedoc.net/statin_dialogues.htm

Australian Adverse Drug Reactions Bulletin (Australia's equivalent to the

FDA)

Volume 17, Number 3, August 1998, section 3, page 3

Simvastatn is listed under "DRUGS THAT MAKE YOU FORGET"

Recognizing the 14 reports of Amnesia under that drug, .8% of the total
adverse effects

for that drug.

www.health.gov.au/tga/docs/pdf/aadrbltn/aadr9808.pdf

MEMORY LOSS & STATINS

Frequently Asked Question: What medical research studies have

been done on Statins and Memory Loss, or other mental

problems that I can bring to my doctor's attention?

(Statins: Lipitor, Mevacor, Pravachol, Zocor, Lescol, and Baycol, aka
atorvastatin,

cerivastatin, fluvastatin, lovastatin, pravastatin, and simvastatin; Nerve
Damage:

Neuropathy, peripheral neuropathy, polyneuropathy; See separate FAQ for
memory loss,

cognitive damage, amnesia and aphasia, i.e., central nervous system (CNS)
damage)

Am J Med. 2004 Dec 1;117(11):823-9.

Randomized trial of the effects of simvastatin on cognitive functioning in

hypercholesterolemic adults.

Muldoon MF, Ryan CM, Sereika SM, Flory JD, Manuck SB.

Center for Clinical Pharmacology, University of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
15260, USA.

mfm10@pitt.edu

"This study provides partial support for minor decrements in cognitive
functioning with

statins. Whether such effects have any long-term sequelae or occur with
other

cholesterol-lowering interventions is not known." This is the second of two
studies by

Muldoon, both showing measurable cognitive decline in statin groups after
only 6

months, using Neuropsych testing. Further, the cognitive deficits appear
consistently in

specific areas.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstr

act&list_uids=15589485

Golomb BA, Yang E, Denenberg J, Criqui M (2003),

Statin-associated adverse events. P95. Presented at the 43rd Annual
Conference on

Cardiovascular Disease Epidemiology and Prevention. Miami; March 5-8.

Muldoon MF, Ryan CM, Flory JD, Manuck SB (2002),

Effects of simvastatin on cognitive functioning.

Presented at the American Heart Association Scientific

Sessions. Chicago; Nov. 17-20.

Muldoon MF, Barger SD, Ryan CM, Flory JD, Lehoczky JP, Matthews KA, Manuck
SB.

Effects of lovastatin on cognitive function and psychological well-being.

After 6 months, 100% of the patients on placeboes showed a measurable
increase in

cognitive function, and 100% of the statin patients showed a measurable
decrease in

cognitive function.

Am J Med. 2000 May;108(7):538-46.

PMID: 10806282 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1

0806282&dopt=Abstract

Cognitive impairment associated with atorvastatin and simvastatin.

King DS, Wilburn AJ, Wofford MR, Harrell TK, Lindley BJ, Jones DW.

Department of Medicine, University of Mississippi Medical Center, Jackson,
Mississippi

39216, USA. dking@pharmacy.umsmed.edu

Pharmacotherapy. 2003 Dec;23(12):1663-7.

"we report two women who experienced significant cognitive impairment
temporally

related to statin therapy. One woman took atorvastatin, and the other first
took

atorvastatin, then was rechallenged with simvastatin. Clinicians should be
aware of

cognitive impairment and dementia as potential adverse effects associated
with statin

therapy." PMID: 14695047

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstr

act&list_uids=14695047

Cognitive impairment associated with atorvastatin.

King DS, Jones DW, Wofford MR et al. (2001), Presented at the American
College of

Clinical Pharmacy Spring Practice and Research Forum. Salt Lake City; April
22-25.

Australian Adverse Drug Reactions Bulletin (Australia's equivalent to the
FDA)

Volume 17, Number 3, August 1998, section 3, page 3

Simvastatn is listed under "DRUGS THAT MAKE YOU FORGET"

Recognizing the 14 reports of Amnesia under that drug, .8% of the total
adverse effects

for that drug.

www.health.gov.au/tga/docs/pdf/aadrbltn/aadr9808.pdf

Statin-associated memory loss: analysis of 60 case reports and review of the

literature.

Wagstaff LR, Mitton MW, Arvik BM, Doraiswamy PM.

Drug Information Service, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, North
Carolina

27710, USA. Pharmacotherapy. 2003 Jul;23(7):871-80.

This study searched the MedWatch drug surveillance system of the Food and
Drug

Administration (FDA) from November 1997-February 2002 for reports of
statinassociated

memory loss. They also reviewed the published literature. References from

the study are good for follow-up research.

Abstract:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1

2885101&dopt=Abstract

Full Study Text free on Medscape:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/458867

The Role of Lipid-Lowering Drugs in Cognitive Function: A Meta-Analysis of

Observational Studies

from Pharmacotherapy

Posted 06/30/2003

Mahyar Etminan, Pharm.D., Sudeep Gill, M.D., FRCPC, Ali Samii, M.D., FRCPC

Although this study does bring the cognitive issues to light, it is a very
poor study. The

authors left out the pivotal study by Dr. Muldoon, that showed nearly 100%
of statin

users had a measurable loss of cognitive ability after 6 months, while 100%
of the

placebo group improved their scores.

Abstract:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1

2820814&dopt=Abstract

Full Study Text free on Medscape:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/456866

Simvastatin-Associated Memory Loss

Amanda Orsi, Pharm.D., Olga Sherman, Pharm.D., and Zegga Woldeselassie,
Pharm.D.,

Abstract: The statins are widely used to treat dyslipidemias. They are
generally

associated with mild adverse effects, but rarely, more serious reactions may
occur. A 51-

year-old man experienced delayed-onset, progressive memory loss while
receiving

simvastatin for hypercholesterolemia. His therapy was switched to
pravastatin, and

memory loss resolved gradually over the next month, with no recurrence of
the adverse

effect.

from Pharmacotherapy

Posted 06/01/2001

Page 1 of 3:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/409738?WebLogicSession=PXke2H8h99pyNVS

CajAh5clptzOAHJSZuNBobSwWmi9veWjdJ2A3%7C-

1468812056489609316/184161392/6/7001/7001/7002/7002/7001/-1

full printable version: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/409738_print

ADR of the Month

September 2001 Vol. 6 No. 9

EDITORS

Michelle W. McCarthy, Pharm.D.

Anne E. Hendrick, Pharm.D.

University of Virginia Health System

Department of Pharmacy Services

Drug Information Center

PO Box 800674

Charlottesville, VA 22908-0674

http://hsc.virginia.edu/pharmacyservices/

Newsletters/ADR%20of%20the%20Month/ADRMonth%209-01htm.html

The Tablet, a general member benefit published by the British Columbia
Pharmacy

Association, September 2001, Volume 10 no 8.

Excerpt:

Do HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors impair memory? After taking simvastatin for
a

year, a 51-year-old patient developed short term memory loss, to the extent
of being

unable to complete his sentences because he would forget what he was going
to say. The

drug was discontinued, replaced by pravastatin, and within one month his
memory

returned.14 In a separate case, a 67-year-old woman developed impaired
short-term

memory, altered mood, social impairment, cognitive impairment and dementia
after one

year of atorvastatin therapy. When atorvastatin was discontinued, her
memory, mood and

cognition improved completely.15 Memory impairment in a patient receiving
atorvastatin

has been reported to the BC Regional ADR Centre.

REFERENCES:

14. Orsi A, Sherman O, Woldeselassie Z. Simvastatin-associated memory loss.

15. King DS, Jones DW, Wofford MR et al. First report of cognitive
impairment in an

elderly patient: case report. Pharmacotherapy 2001 Mar; 21: 371.

http://www.bcpharmacy.ca/publications/thetablet/pdf_version/BCPhA_Tablet-

Sep2001.pdf

See page 11 of 16:

See also:

Statins and risk of polyneuropathy, A case-control study

D. Gaist, MD, PhD; U. Jeppesen, MD, PhD; M. Andersen, MD, PhD; L.A. García

Rodríguez, MD, MSc;

J. Hallas, MD, PhD; and S.H. Sindrup, MD, PhD

http://213.4.18.135/87.pdf full text

Preclinical safety evaluation of cerivastatin, a novel HMG-CoA reductase
inhibitor.

von Keutz E, Schluter G.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9

737641&dopt=Abstract

Institute of Toxicology, PH-Product Development, Bayer AG, Wuppertal,
Germany

Am J Cardiol. 1998 Aug 27;82(4B):11J-17J.

PMID: 9737641

"In dogs, the species most sensitive to statins, cerivastatin caused
erosions and

hemorrhages in the gastrointestinal tract, bleeding in the brain stem with
fibroid

degeneration of vessel walls in the choroid plexus, and lens opacity."

Subchronic toxicity of atorvastatin, a hydroxymethylglutaryl-coenzyme A
reductase

inhibitor, in beagle dogs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8

864188&dopt=Abstract

Walsh KM, Albassam MA, Clarke DE.

Parke-Davis Pharmaceutical Research, Division of Warner-Lambert Company, Ann

Arbor, Michigan 48105, USA.

"The toxicity of atorvastatin (AT), an inhibitor of
hydroxymethylglutaryl-coenzyme A

reductase (HMG), was evaluated in beagle dogs. hemorrhage in gallbladder and
brain,

demyelination of optic nerve, and skeletal muscle necrosis"

Finally, on memory loss and statins: Sworn testimony from the Baycol trial
in Corpus

Christi, Texas. From the transcript of the AM Session on 03-05-03, in the
case Hollis

Haltom Vs. Bayer Corporation. Testifying under oath,., in response to the
plaintiff's

attorney's question, "What is your current position at Bayer?", LAWRENCE
POSNER,

M.D of BAYER stated: "I'm the -- currently I'm the head of worldwide
regulatory affairs

for our prescription drug business, which means I have responsibility in
somewhere

between 60 and 100 countries where we sell products for registrations,
compliance,

things of that nature." Excerpts from the trial transcript follow, with the
Q indicating

counsel's Question, and the A indicating Dr. Posner's Answer:

Q. So there are some concerns addressed here back in 1995 about testing up
to .8. And do

you know what the nature of the concern was?

A. Yes. It was related to a side effect that occurred in the brain.

Q. Of what kind of animal?

A. It occurred in the brain of dogs.

Q. Okay. So there was a side effect that occurred in dogs, and then there
was a concern

about whether you wanted to go forward and test at this higher dose level in
human

beings, given what you had learned about the dogs, right?

A. That's correct.

Q. Okay. Now, did you just say, well, let's forget about these concerns and
we'll go ahead

and put .8 on the market anyway, or did you do some further analysis that
was not

mentioned the other day?

A. Yes. The authors of this had -- they had two concerns. One concern was
the toxicity

that they found in the brain of dogs. But the other was that they had no way
to identify

this and who might be at risk before it happened. So there was no way to
detect that

someone was at risk for this side effect.

[skip some testimony on other topics]

Q. Do you remember in one kind of animal there had been some studies done
that there

could be a particular kind of problem with one kind of animal?

A. Oh, yeah. Yes, from the -- that's correct, from the toxicology studies.

Q. Okay. And were you able to demonstrate to your own satisfaction, to
SmithKline's

satisfaction, to the FDA's satisfaction, that that particular problem that
showed up with

that kind of animal is not something that happens in human beings?

A. Yes. We did it -- we did it by explaining the toxicology data. We also
explained it on

the basis of kinetic data. That actually at the higher levels of drug, what
happens is a

certain amount of drug is bound to proteins in the body that circulate; and
therefore, is

not -- cannot cause side effects. And actually, a much smaller proportion of
the drug is

free. And that what you corrected for that, you actually found out that the
margins of

safety were in fact greater than you would predict just from the animal
data.

Q. And as you move forward then and got approval and sold Baycol from 1997
through

2001, did that problem that had shown up with that one kind of animal ever
become a

problem with human beings?

A. It was actually shown with other statins as well. It wasn't unique to
cerivastatin. It was

a problem -- it was identified early on with lovastatin and some of the
others. In fact, for

none of the statins did it ever predict for any clinical problem or
toxicity.

Q. So these animals would have that same problem regardless of which
statin -- or at

least with other statins?

A. Certainly with lovastatin it was true.

Q. But when it came time to human beings, that just wasn't something that
happened to

human beings?

A. And I think today no one pays much attention to it.

If adverse effects are detected, the patient should request that the doctor
report them to

the FDA and the NIH-funded Statin Study. This request to the doctor can be
made in

writing, similar to the example below:

To my physician,

I believe that my symptoms may be due to the adverse effects associated with

cholesterol-lowering statin drugs. I need your help to understand the cause
of my

symptoms, treatment options, and the prognosis for my recovery.

Please review the references below, published medical studies that show
similar

problems associated with statin drugs. These are made available via the
National

Institutes of Health (NIH, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Entrez/) library of

biomedical journal citations and other major repositories of medical
research.

Also, I am respectfully requesting that you file an adverse effects report
with the

FDA (http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/how.htm), and that you please send a copy

of the report to the to the NIH-funded Statin Study, attention: Dr. Beatrice

Golomb, Principal Investigator.

Statin Study website: http://medicine.ucsd.edu/statin/

Statin Study contact info: http://medicine.ucsd.edu/statin/contactinfo.html

UCSD STATIN STUDY E-MAIL ADDRESS: statinstudy@ucsd.edu

MAILING ADDRESS: UCSD Statin Study 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-

0995

PHONE NUMBER: (858) 558-4950

What are the names of the Statin drugs?

The Cholesterol-lowering Statin Drug Names: Lipitor, Crestor, Mevacor,
Pravachol,

Zocor, Lescol, and Baycol, aka atorvastatin, rosuvastatin, cerivastatin,
fluvastatin,

lovastatin, pravastatin, and simvastatin; This class of drugs is also known
as HMG-CoA

Reductase Inhibitors, short for 3-Hydroxy-3-Methyl-Glutaryl Coenzyme A
Reductase.

> Again you have a remarkable ability to not see the point. Your claim of
> 5.2 per 100,000 in the general population having amnesia was totally false
> and thus can not be compared to Lipitor PI where all forms of amnesia were
> included - for example those probably caused by sleeping pills or
> accidents. They did not say TGA in the PI. They said amnesia. And you said
> amnesia.

Talk to Harris about the 5.2, that was his post, not mine.  Sorry that
doesn't fit with your "statin belief" defensiveness, but that is a
perception problem you have.

> Bill
>
[quoted text clipped - 250 lines]
>>>>>>>>> > fairuse
>>>>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Bill - 11 Aug 2005 05:38 GMT
>>>>>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
>>>>>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
>
> This is patently untrue.

You are simply unable to understand. TGA is not as a whole amnesia. By
definition it lasts less than 24 hours. You husband's amnesia, for example,
has lasted over 24 hours.

Or are you claiming that the amnesia symptoms due to Lipitor are TGA and
therefore last less than 24 hours?
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro02/web1/mwhite.html

http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic380.htm

Further you did not address the main point. You claimed that amnesia occurs at
the rate of  5.2/100,000 in the US population. This was false and your
conclusions from that were false. The number was for TGA. This is shown in the
quote above.

Bill

> You are on record having commented vehemently over the memory loss FAQ many
> many times.
[quoted text clipped - 884 lines]
>>>>>>>>>> > fairuse
>>>>>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Bill - 10 Aug 2005 13:14 GMT
>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> disability.  Please point me to that post you made, I would like to print it
> out and show it to him.

Why did you find the need to change the subject?  Here was my original post.

"No one here denies that statins have bad effects and in very rare cases  -
perhaps one in a million - permanetly debilating ones. So you are wrong again
if you imply that I do not acknowledge that.

You are the only one here who will not acknolwadge that statins may a stop
debilating effects in some cases and may save lives."

Instead of addressing any of that at all you thought bringing up your husband
was sufficient. Why?  That has nothing to do with any of the above. It just
demonstrates you lack of ability to think rationally about this subject.

I have acknowledge that statins have side effects. You repeat your claim I
don't. But I just did. What does your husband have to do with any of that?

You do not acknowledge that statins have benefits. Your husband has everything
to do that.

I have expressed sympathy before but that has nothing to do with anything and
if you do not want to accept that, OK.

Bill

>> You are the only one here who will not acknolwadge that statins may a stop
>> debilating effects in some cases and may save lives.
[quoted text clipped - 240 lines]
>>>>>> > fairuse
>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Sharon Hope - 11 Aug 2005 04:35 GMT
>>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
>>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> Why did you find the need to change the subject?  Here was my original
> post.

Here, you must mean the OT subject?  "Stopping statins is bad for your
health"?

> "No one here denies that statins have bad effects and in very rare
> ases  -
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> above. It just demonstrates you lack of ability to think rationally about
> this subject.

You seem to prefer your "pro-statin belief" answer to the question why,
which you imagined and projected on me (or do you hear voices?) over my
direct answer to why, which is somehow then not an acceptable answer.

Again, that "pro-statin belief system" is so in control of your mind that
you cannot perceive anything that does not fit your predetermined pattern of
what the world should look like.    You have incredible difficulty
acknowledging PREVENTABLE DISABLING AND DEBILITATING ADVERSE EFFECTS OF
STATINS.

No matter how often you hear it, read it, see it, your "pro-statin belief
system" causes you to believe it doesn't exist.

It does exist.  In my life, my family, my home it exists 24x7.  In Zee's
life it is 24x7.  In many, many others it is 24x7, and then there are those
who are coping with the loss of loved ones due to statin induced
rhabdomyolysis, or statin unmasked ALS, or other problems.

You, however, will read this and claim never to have heard of it - because
your perceptions have been short-circuited by that "pro-statin belief
system" you greet people with.

> I have acknowledge that statins have side effects. You repeat your claim I
> don't. But I just did. What does your husband have to do with any of that?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I have expressed sympathy before but that has nothing to do with anything
> and if you do not want to accept that, OK.

Check the posts, you were so confused with your "pro-statin belief system"
that you mentioned my statin damage, not his.  He is the one who took
Lipitor 10 mg/day for 4 years, resulting in over 7 1/2 years of pain and
disability and with no indication of this resolving completely.

> Bill
>
[quoted text clipped - 248 lines]
>>>>>>> > fairuse
>>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
Bill - 11 Aug 2005 05:44 GMT
>>>>> Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
>>>>> statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> acknowledging PREVENTABLE DISABLING AND DEBILITATING ADVERSE EFFECTS OF
> STATINS.

I have already acknowleded that numerous times. You just are unable to here
it.

Do you acknowledge that statins help people some times?

> No matter how often you hear it, read it, see it, your "pro-statin belief
> system" causes you to believe it doesn't exist.

Again you claim I have a position I do not have. What do you mean by a
"pro-statin belief system."

I agree that statins are not for everyone.

Do you agree that statins are for some people?

> It does exist.  In my life, my family, my home it exists 24x7.  In Zee's
> life it is 24x7.  In many, many others it is 24x7, and then there are those
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> your perceptions have been short-circuited by that "pro-statin belief
> system" you greet people with.

As you can see by the above this is false.

>> I have acknowledge that statins have side effects. You repeat your claim I
>> don't. But I just did. What does your husband have to do with any of that?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Lipitor 10 mg/day for 4 years, resulting in over 7 1/2 years of pain and
> disability and with no indication of this resolving completely.

I have no idea of what you are talking about or why it is important. Again I
have no idea what you are talking about.

Bill

>> Bill
>>
[quoted text clipped - 244 lines]
>>>>>>>> > fairuse
>>>>>>>> > www.redflagsweekly.com
George Conklin - 10 Aug 2005 21:19 GMT
> > Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
> > statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who have
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Bill

  One in a million?  Are you kidding?  1 per hundred would be considered
good results in drug tests.
Bill - 11 Aug 2005 00:56 GMT
>> > Perfect example of a person who has developed a "belief system about
>> > statins" and that "belief" causes him to reject the input of people who
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>   One in a million?  Are you kidding?  1 per hundred would be considered
> good results in drug tests.

You are saying 1 per every 100 hundred people taking Lipitor has permanetly
debilating side effects from statins. You are just wrong. Numerous trials have
never found this. Provide one example of one that has.

Bill
eml - 11 Aug 2005 01:17