>Second Opinion
>Be skeptical about the Herceptin hype
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Thursday, August 4, 2005 Page A15
This mathematically semi-literate screed has been bugging me for a
while now, so I've decided to slam it a little.
>The laudatory words from some oncologists and patient advocates, along
>with extensive media coverage, have placed enormous pressure on public
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>diagnosis, compared to 33 per cent of women who took chemo alone. That
>is an absolute risk reduction of 18 per cent.
No, it's an absolute risk reduction of 18 percentage POINTS, which is
not the same thing. What really happened is that among the select
group, if you didn't take the drug, you had 1 chance in 3 of a
recurrence, but if you did, you had a bit over one chance in 7.
That's pretty significant.
Now, maybe it's not a cost-effective solution. I'm not going to try
to claim that this is the best way for Canada to spend its health care
dollars. But I do object to the sloppiness of the article. Trying to
sling around "18%" as interchangeable with "18 percentage points" is
just plain stupid.
Suppose I had a drug that reduced the chance of a recurrence from
20% to 2%. That's the same 18 point difference, but now we're talking
one chance in five vs one chance in fifty. That's VERY significant.
By contrast, if the odds went from 98% to 80%, well, that's the same
number of points, but four out of five patients will still see a
recurrence (vs 2 of 100 who didn't see one before).
>Nobody wants a recurrence, but what matters ultimately is survival.
>Herceptin, according to the studies, cut the death rate by one-third.
>That sounds impressive, but relative risk reductions always do. In
>reality, the difference in the death rate between the Herceptin and
>non-Herceptin groups was 2 per cent after three years, and 4 per cent
>after four years.
At this point, the article leaves rationality completely. I'm
guessing that the author means 2 percentage points and 4 percentage
points, but I really have no way of knowing. You can't make any sort
of decision or judgement with dreck like this.
>Based on those numbers, can we honestly say that Herceptin is an
>essential lifesaving drug?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Herceptin. Is trading breast cancer for heart failure the next best
>thing to a cure?
Once again, we don't know what numbers the author is comparing, so the
question is unanswerable.
>When it comes to drugs, miracles are often short-lived. Tamoxifen was
>once the next best thing to a cure for postmenopausal women with breast
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>still out on whether the medication will increase the risk of
>cardiovascular disease.
So the answer here is "I don't know." There is nothing disgraceful
about saying "I don't know" when you really don't, but somehow this
is being portrayed as knavery, or at least potential knavery.
>Perhaps it's not fair to single out Herceptin. Every pharma company
>dreams of this kind of buzz for its drug. But it is, in the words of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Herceptin has not met this test.
No, and it takes time for it to do so, which means we're almost always
working with very stale data if we want really reliable information.
On the other hand, suppose it turns out that Herceptin's apparent
effects on heart failure really are nothing, but the survival rate
over the longer term is way more than a few percentage points? If the
decision is made not to have it be part of the standard treatment
today, then people will be screaming then.
Again, I don't know what the right thing is to do here. I'm just
objecting to the sloppy arguments Picard is making.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
natural things that money can buy."
-- Steve Martin
outrider - 13 Aug 2005 22:39 GMT
> >Second Opinion
> >Be skeptical about the Herceptin hype
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> This mathematically semi-literate screed has been bugging me for a
> while now, so I've decided to slam it a little.
That's ok. Why I posted...
But do you have to get into name calling too? And by the way, do tell
me how it is I judge your analysis. I know who Chinnis is, and Rubin,
and of course Harris. But who is David Wright? Not quibbling...just
asking. I've never known.
> >The laudatory words from some oncologists and patient advocates, along
> >with extensive media coverage, have placed enormous pressure on public
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> recurrence, but if you did, you had a bit over one chance in 7.
> That's pretty significant.
> Now, maybe it's not a cost-effective solution. I'm not going to try
> to claim that this is the best way for Canada to spend its health care
> dollars. But I do object to the sloppiness of the article. Trying to
> sling around "18%" as interchangeable with "18 percentage points" is
> just plain stupid.
> Suppose I had a drug that reduced the chance of a recurrence from
> 20% to 2%. That's the same 18 point difference, but now we're talking
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> Again, I don't know what the right thing is to do here. I'm just
> objecting to the sloppy arguments Picard is making.
I'm forwarding your comments to him. I want to see what's right.
Er...Wright. Not who is right you understand. What is.
Thanks David.
Zee
> -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
> These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
> "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
> natural things that money can buy."
> -- Steve Martin
David Wright - 14 Aug 2005 05:40 GMT
>> >Second Opinion
>> >Be skeptical about the Herceptin hype
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>But do you have to get into name calling too?
Not name calling, just an accurate description.
>And by the way, do tell
>me how it is I judge your analysis. I know who Chinnis is, and Rubin,
>and of course Harris. But who is David Wright? Not quibbling...just
>asking. I've never known.
Not sure I undersatnd your question -- but you judge my analysis the
same way you would anyone else's: is it correct or not?
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
natural things that money can buy."
-- Steve Martin
outrider - 14 Aug 2005 06:19 GMT
> >> >Second Opinion
> >> >Be skeptical about the Herceptin hype
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Not sure I undersatnd your question -- but you judge my analysis the
> same way you would anyone else's: is it correct or not?
It's your opinion. The column was his. He may have used a term
incorrectly, but that doesn't obivate his argument. I'm glad he had the
courage to speak out. There's been little else because the rest of the
reporting on this is pure hype born in the marketing department. I'll
leave analysis of the issue to others more capable than I.
But who are you? I merely wondered because I've seen you posting and
have no idea. You ask us to take your voice as one speaking from
authority; from what authority I ask? Not to deny it but to inform me.
Ok?
Happy Dog - 14 Aug 2005 06:52 GMT
"outrider" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote in message
>> >And by the way, do tell
>> >me how it is I judge your analysis. I know who Chinnis is, and Rubin,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> authority; from what authority I ask? Not to deny it but to inform me.
> Ok?
Sure. Maybe you have some connections to get some unauthorized info on him.
moo
Carey Gregory - 14 Aug 2005 07:55 GMT
>But who are you? I merely wondered because I've seen you posting and
>have no idea. You ask us to take your voice as one speaking from
>authority; from what authority I ask? Not to deny it but to inform me.
>Ok?
Kind of a strange question coming from someone who posts anonymously.
David Wright is well known here and has been for many years. It's laughable
you would even ask this. What does his "authority" matter? His posting
history speaks for itself.
outrider - 14 Aug 2005 15:38 GMT
> >But who are you? I merely wondered because I've seen you posting and
> >have no idea. You ask us to take your voice as one speaking from
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> you would even ask this. What does his "authority" matter? His posting
> history speaks for itself.
You mistake an interested question for a challenge.
I am not challenging David's authority. I am asking what it is. It
would be interesting to me to know. Math, chemistry, engineering? It's
obvious there is some authority there. You know; you meet someone,
chat, exchange pleasantries?
In any case; the question was posed to David.
David Wright - 14 Aug 2005 17:23 GMT
>> >But who are you? I merely wondered because I've seen you posting and
>> >have no idea. You ask us to take your voice as one speaking from
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>In any case; the question was posed to David.
I have a math degree and an engineering degree. Beyond that, I
decline to answer, mostly to avoid giving enough information to
loons like Ilena Rosenthal that they could go hassle my alma
maters about my degrees.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
natural things that money can buy."
-- Steve Martin
outrider - 14 Aug 2005 17:45 GMT
> >> >But who are you? I merely wondered because I've seen you posting and
> >> >have no idea. You ask us to take your voice as one speaking from
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> loons like Ilena Rosenthal that they could go hassle my alma
> maters about my degrees.
Thank you David. I suspected as much from the content of your answers
which I have learned to respect. But I am also now, justifiably, in
awe.
Zee
The totally math phobic
> -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
> These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
> "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
> natural things that money can buy."
> -- Steve Martin
David Wright - 14 Aug 2005 17:22 GMT
>>But who are you? I merely wondered because I've seen you posting and
>>have no idea. You ask us to take your voice as one speaking from
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>you would even ask this. What does his "authority" matter? His posting
>history speaks for itself.
Why, thank you. In any case, my critique of the Picard article was
not simply "my opinion." It's not "my opinion" that Picard was
carelessly screwing with "percentage" vs "percentage points." And so
on.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
natural things that money can buy."
-- Steve Martin
outrider - 14 Aug 2005 18:01 GMT
Well yes it is an opinion, as you have stated it David. "Carelessly
screwing" is a judgement. You don't know that.
Inadvertent error, an editor who missed the error, an editor who
changed Andre's terminology...
Everything in a daily paper, even the best ones, is for the 'average'
reader. But Andre would like to know, from someone with your creds. He
would _ really_ like to know. apicard(AT)globeandmail.ca