Medical Forum / General / General / August 2005
Guns dont kill people, doctors do.
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Quintal - 23 Jul 2005 23:30 GMT US Gun Statistics Various Sources 2-2-5
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000. (B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000. (C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services) Guns (A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. Yes, that is 80 million. (B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500. (C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188. Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do." FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR. Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand! Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.
-- francom.esoterisme,sci.med,fr.bio.medecine,alt.conspiracy
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 23 Jul 2005 23:42 GMT > US Gun Statistics > Various Sources > 2-2-5 > > (A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000. > (B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000. Wrong. There is no good evidence for the last statistic. It was generated in studies in which ALL deaths of ill people in hospitals to whom accidents happened, where presumed due to the medical accidents. Which amounts to asssuming that those ill people in hospitals to whom medical accidents do NOT happen, are immortal. Wups.
Quintal - 23 Jul 2005 23:53 GMT >> US Gun Statistics >> Various Sources [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Which amounts to asssuming that those ill people in hospitals to whom >medical accidents do NOT happen, are immortal. Wups. good counter-point, thank you. anyway the above quoted text was not mean at all by its author to be a charge against medicine. I mischievously posted it to medical NGs;-)
HCN - 24 Jul 2005 05:14 GMT ...WAIT... according to this: http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/ ... auto accidents kill more than ANYthing, up until age 45. Then AFTER age 45 diseases like malignant neoplasms and diseases of the heart barely beat auto accidents.
How about we outlaw CARS! (or just no give driver's licenses to anyone under the age of 45)
Terri - 28 Jul 2005 15:07 GMT > >> US Gun Statistics > >> Various Sources [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Which amounts to asssuming that those ill people in hospitals to whom > >medical accidents do NOT happen, are immortal. Wups. No. It was based on the numbers of people who died *of* the medical error/accident. The risk of death to any human being is 100%. None of us are going to get out of here alive. But for these people death was untimely, whether it was 1 minute earlier or years earlier, these people were cheated out of whatever life they had left by a medical accident.
> good counter-point, thank you. > anyway the above quoted text was not mean at all by its author to be a > charge against medicine. I mischievously posted it to medical NGs;-) Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 28 Jul 2005 20:07 GMT >No. It was based on the numbers of people who died *of* the medical >error/accident. COMMENT:
Repeating it won't make it so. THERE WAS NO CONTROL GROUP. And without one, you cannot TELL who died OF the medical error (usually). All you can tell is that they died AFTER it, and take your best GUESS as to whether or not this very ill person would have made it, if the error had not occurred. I've appended a number of abstracts pointing out all this out, and even one in which the doctors actually tried to do a best guess as to whether or not error made in hospitals were indeed fatal, using the baseline that the patient would otherwise would be expected to have left the hospital and lived another three months.
Remember, please, that as patients who are dying of cancer or old age or some chronic disease become more and more frail, they become more and more like a house of cards with too many cards. It becomes more and more difficult to do ANYTHING for them without small imperfections in your technique causing possibly major problems. Or to put it another way, getting them to live through any interventive procedure takes greater and greater skill until finally you hit the wall where only the best surgeon or intensivist on the planet *might* be able to get them through the next infection or stint on the ventilator or surgical procedure (which they need to survive another couple of weeks) but that person isn't available. That's *how* people often die if you have no hospice and nobody is willing to "give up." Sorry. And you can always witchhunt and find somebody to blame. Indeed, if the doctors refuse to do anything, knowing that doing anything will probably be useless and/or carry a high degree of causing yet more problems, you can always fire them and find a doctor who's willing to try it anyway. Or you can sue everybody for failure to provide care.
Here's a patient whose heart probably isn't up to the extra load of hemodialysis. But their kidneys aren't working. The last time they were dialyzed they nearly died, but didn't because the technician happened to know the latest tricks of keeping the blood pressure just right with the latest machine. But *that* guy's on vacation. So now what? If you don't dialyze, the patient will surely die. If you do, the next tech will probably kill them. But maybe not. There you go.
Whatever you do, you're betting a small chance of extending life, against an extra risk of dying NOW if you operate, or whatever (vs doing nothing, in which case the patient will surely die during the hospitalization, but maybe not this second). And if the operation or procedure or drug kills them, or some problem while delivering it pushes them over, you can always say they were ROBBED of a few days or hours or seconds of life.
> The Institute of Medicine estimates that over 100,000 patients die > every year in *highly regulated* U.S. hospitals as a result of medical > errors or mistakes?. and beginning in 1999 that dialogue was sold to > the American public in newspaper banners and on TV news programs > across > the nation. COMMENT:
FROM A MESSAGE POSTED A YEAR AGO (this seems to come up once a year, while all the doctor bashers are on on vaccation):
S.B.Harris, M.D.
Here is a sad truth of physiology that every physician knows: in any developed country, most deaths happen in the aged and the otherwise very infirm, frail, and chronically ill. Such people, as they approach the day of their deaths, become more and more like a house of cards which is waiting for that last card of that last puff of wind. Sometimes what sends them over is a medical error. Often enough, it's the kind of error that all but the terminally ill would survive. If no error is made, it's always something else.
Let me pause for an illustrative story. When I was a resident we had an elderly respiratory patient who always pestered the staff about her diet. Because she had no dentures, she had been ordered a pureed diet. That was fine with her, but she couldn't get her favorite food, which was a boiled egg for breakfast. Each day she demanded a boiled egg, which the dietary service could not provide on the diet orders she had writen. Until finally the nurses started calling the housestaff about it. It was thought that a mechanical soft diet in general would be too much for the woman, but perhaps an egg could be excepted. So one of my interns, desiring to increase the quality of the woman's life and to cut short the infernal complaining, literally wrote the following medical order on the woman's chart: "Please give pt [patient] boiled eggs PRN [meaning whenever she likes]."
This was early in the morning. Later in the morning there was a "code" (an arrested patient) and the code team found that the arrested patient was the boiled egg lady. The next orders in the chart to be writen after "Please give pt boiled eggs PRN" were the code medication orders. And these were the last orders also, because the women did not survive. The code intern found difficulty intubating the woman through the remains of boiled egg in her trachea, which she had aspirated.
With the cruel humor of all housestaffs, we spent some time thereafter whenever we could, remaining the unfortunate intern about how he had killed the "boiled egg lady" with his boiled egg order. Surely a fatal
medical error.
And now, for some hardboiled abstracts on the subject. Pay attention particularly to the last one:
======================================= Eff Clin Pract. 2000 Nov-Dec;3(6):277-83.
How many deaths are due to medical error? Getting the number right. Sox Jr HC, Woloshin S.
Dartmouth Medical School, Hanover, NH, USA. harold.c....@dartmouth.edu
CONTEXT: The Institute of Medicine (IOM) report on medical errors created an intense public response by stating that between 44,000 and 98,000 hospitalized Americans die each year as a result of preventable medical errors. OBJECTIVE: To determine how well the IOM committee documented its estimates and how valid they were. METHODS: We reviewed the studies cited in the IOM committee's report and related published articles. RESULTS: The two studies cited by the IOM committee substantiate its statement that adverse events occur in 2.9% to 3.7% of hospital admissions. Supporting data for the assertion that about half of these adverse events are preventable are less clear. In fact, the original studies cited did not define preventable adverse events, and the reliability of subjective judgments about preventability was not formally assessed. The committee's estimate of the number of preventable deaths due to medical errors is least substantiated. The methods used to estimate the upper bound of the estimate (98,000 preventable deaths) were highly subjective, and their reliability and reproducibility are unknown, as are the methods used to estimate the lower bound (44,000 deaths). CONCLUSION: Using the published literature, we could not confirm the Institute of Medicine's reported number of deaths due to medical errors. Due to the potential impact of this number on policy, it is unfortunate that the IOM's estimate is not well substantiated. Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 11151524 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Hosp Case Manag. 2000 Oct;8(10):suppl 3-4, 146. University study identifies problems with IOM report. [No authors listed]
The Institute of Medicine's (IOM) report on medical errors is faulty because it does not include a control group and all the patients studied were 'very sick' according to researchers at Indiana University. "What the figures suggest is that people don't die [without an adverse event]," says Clement J. McDonald, MD, director of the Regenstrief Institute and Distinguished Professor of Medicine at Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis. McDonald is referring to the study released by the IOM of the National Academies in November that states 'preventable adverse events are a leading cause of death' and 'at least 44,000 and perhaps as many as 98,000 Americans die in hospitals each year as a result of medical errors. PMID: 11143166 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
=====================ïf Clin Pract. 2000 Nov-Dec;3(6):261-9.
Comment in: Eff Clin Pract. 2001 May-Jun;4(3):141; author reply 142. Eff Clin Pract. 2001 May-Jun;4(3):141; author reply 142.
What is an error? Hofer TP, Kerr EA, Hayward RA.
Department of Veterans Affairs, VA Center for Practice Management and Outcomes Research, VA Ann Arbor Healthcare System, Ann Arbor, Mich., USA. tho...@umich.edu
CONTEXT: Launched by the Institute of Medicine's report, "To Err is Human," the reduction of medical errors has become a top agenda item for virtually every part of the U.S. health care system. OBJECTIVE: To identify existing definitions of error, to determine the major issues in measuring errors, and to present recommendations for how best to proceed. DATA SOURCE: Medical literature on errors as well as the sociology and industrial psychology literature cited therein. RESULTS: We have four principal observations. First, errors have been defined in terms of failed processes without any link to subsequent harm. Second, only a few studies have actually measured errors, and these have not described the reliability of the measurement. Third, no studies directly examine the relationship between errors and adverse events. Fourth, the value of pursuing latent system errors (a concept pertaining to small, often trivial structure and process problems that interact in complex ways to produce catastrophe) using case studies or root cause analysis has not been demonstrated in either the medical or nonmedical literature. CONCLUSION: Medical error should be defined in terms of failed processes that are clearly linked to adverse outcomes. Efforts to reduce errors should be proportional to their impact on outcomes (preventable morbidity, mortality, and patient satisfaction) and the cost of preventing them. The error and the quality movements are analogous and require the same rigorous epidemiologic approach to establish which relationships are causal. Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 11151522 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
JAMA. 2001 Jul 25;286(4):415-20. Comment in: JAMA. 2001 Dec 12;286(22):2813-4. Estimating hospital deaths due to medical errors: preventability is in the eye of the reviewer. Hayward RA, Hofer TP.
CONTEXT: Studies using physician implicit review have suggested that the number of deaths due to medical errors in US hospitals is extremely high. However, some have questioned the validity of these estimates. OBJECTIVE: To examine the reliability of reviewer ratings of medical error and the implications of a death described as "preventable by better care" in terms of the probability of immediate and short-term survival if care had been optimal. DESIGN: Retrospective implicit review of medical records from 1995-1996. SETTING AND PARTICIPANTS: Fourteen board-certified, trained internists used a previously tested structured implicit review instrument to conduct 383 reviews of 111 hospital deaths at 7 Department of Veterans Affairs medical centers, oversampling for markers previously found to be associated with high rates of preventable deaths. Patients considered terminally ill who received comfort care only were excluded. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Reviewer estimates of whether deaths could have been prevented by optimal care (rated on a 5-point scale) and of the probability that patients would have lived to discharge or for 3 months or more if care had been optimal (rated from 0%-100%). RESULTS: Similar to previous studies, almost a quarter (22.7%) of active-care patient deaths were rated as at least possibly preventable by optimal care, with 6.0% rated as probably or definitely preventable. Interrater reliability for these ratings was also similar to previous studies (0.34 for 2 reviewers). The reviewers' estimates of the percentage of patients who would have left the hospital alive had optimal care been provided was 6.0% (95% confidence interval [CI], 3.4%-8.6%).However, after considering 3-month prognosis and adjusting for the variability and skewness of reviewers' ratings, clinicians estimated that only 0.5% (95% CI, 0.3%-0.7%) of patients who died would have lived 3 months or more in good cognitive health if care had been optimal, representing roughly 1 patient per 10 000 admissions to the study hospitals. CONCLUSIONS: Medical errors are a major concern regardless of patients' life expectancies, but our study suggests that previous interpretations of medical error statistics are probably misleading. Our data place the estimates of preventable deaths in context, pointing out the limitations of this means of identifying medical errors and assessing their potential implications for patient outcomes.
PMID: 11466119 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Terri - 28 Jul 2005 20:40 GMT > >No. It was based on the numbers of people who died *of* the medical > >error/accident. > > COMMENT: > > Repeating it won't make it so. THERE WAS NO CONTROL GROUP.
> And without > one, you cannot TELL who died OF the medical error (usually). Saying *that* won't make it so. Many medical errors are blatant and they are often obviously the proximate cause of death. All medical errors are not doctor-caused btw. Nurses make their share.
I'm not doctor-bashing.
> All you > can tell is that they died AFTER it, and take your best GUESS as to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > using the baseline that the patient would otherwise would be expected > to have left the hospital and lived another three months. So if the patient would have been expected to die within three months of the error of his/her underlying disease anyway, the medical error didn't cause the death or it doesn't count? I don't think so.
> Remember, please, that as patients who are dying of cancer or old age > or some chronic disease become more and more frail, they become more [quoted text clipped - 227 lines] > > PMID: 11466119 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Quintal - 30 Jul 2005 22:53 GMT >>No. It was based on the numbers of people who died *of* the medical >>error/accident. > >COMMENT:
>Repeating it won't make it so. THERE WAS NO CONTROL GROUP. ahah excellent. you've just repeated it, with caps, thinking it would make it so.
Any reference, beyond claims, of the study in question?
> And without >one, you cannot TELL who died OF the medical error (usually). All you [quoted text clipped - 238 lines] > >PMID: 11466119 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] mbraffus@yahoo.com - 24 Jul 2005 08:12 GMT Do you have any evidence for this claim?
I believe the the studies refered to by the IOM determined and did not presume that the deaths were caused by errors.
Bob - 24 Jul 2005 03:13 GMT > US Gun Statistics >Various Sources [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >than gun owners. >Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do." Amazing what one can do with statistics.
You should normalize your data for the number of encounters. Probability of death per encounter with a doc or a gun would be more useful.
(I've read your exchange with SBH.)
bob
dcholiman@ev1.net - 02 Aug 2005 05:29 GMT ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Saying that "the patient would have died anyway in 3 months according to the statistics" is like saying a hit-man doesn't really kill people because they are going to die anyway.
I have seen too many and talked to too many people who were overmedicated and who did not have the expertise to change their dosage of something. Whatever the medication a physician prescribes for me, I always take half the recommended dosage at first (except for antibiotics) to see how the compound will affect me.
David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beru - 24 Jul 2005 12:19 GMT > Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors > before this gets completely out of hand! C'est bien, c'est bien , mais avant de débiter tes quintaux de conneries sur fbm, tu serais bien gentil de te rappeller que c'est un forum francophone.
--Beru--Voir ça au reveil un dimanche, en plus du temps pourrit, ça vous remonte un homme!
Eataine - 24 Jul 2005 19:20 GMT Bon, allez, tant pis...
Primo, il faut comparer le nombre d'actes médicaux et non pas le nombre de médecins... Un dermatologue a moins de "chances" d'avoir un décés à son actif qu'un urgentiste, un cardiologue ou un oncologue...
Secundo, dans les décès accidentels dus aux médecins, combien seraient arrivés en l'absence d'intervention du médecins?
Tertio, pas la peine d'aller plus loin, on reconnait bien là la plume de quintal... Un bon quintal de connerie...
Fred
> US Gun Statistics > Various Sources [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > -- > francom.esoterisme,sci.med,fr.bio.medecine,alt.conspiracy dcholiman@ev1.net - 27 Jul 2005 07:38 GMT ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Flawed logic here. Accidental prescription side effect deaths may exceed accidental gun deaths per year. But total gun death far exceeds total overdose death from whatever the drug source. "Guns kill people, drugs kill pain." David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quintal - 30 Jul 2005 21:32 GMT >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Flawed logic here. Accidental prescription side effect [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >David H >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ what does overdose have to do with this argument? It's about the risk of being treated by a doctor. As another poster noted, it should be taken into account the supposed risk of NOT being treated by a doctor, if there is one, for the argument that I presented to be proven valid. But overdose? What's the logic there?
Quintal - 30 Jul 2005 21:29 GMT >Bon, allez, tant pis... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Tertio, pas la peine d'aller plus loin, on reconnait bien là la plume de >quintal... Un bon quintal de connerie... Après cette faible tentative d'argumentation, ton attaque personnelle est comique (quoique c'est plus facile mdr, quand on n'arrive pas à démontrer quelque chose, il y a toujours le refuge d'attaquer le posteur mdr).
Peut mieux faire!
>Fred > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> -- >> francom.esoterisme,sci.med,fr.bio.medecine,alt.conspiracy
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