Medical Forum / General / General / July 2005
Roy Romanow on Canada's universal access health care system
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zee - 16 Jul 2005 18:44 GMT ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA SCOTIA Speech for The Cooperators
Halifax
April 15, 2003
I am very pleased to be here with you. I am pleased to have the opportunity to talk about the future of our health care system. It's also nice to be with friends who understand the power of cooperation and the creative expression of its principles in community based cooperatives and entrepreneurial business versions as well. And frankly, given the chaotic world in which we live, I am pleased to be anywhere!
It's been just over 4 months since my final report was submitted, and just over 2 months since Canada's First Ministers came together to achieve the landmark 2003 Health Accord.
I must say that I take no small amount of pride in the fact that First Ministers agreed to act as quickly as they did to give effect to many of the key recommendations included in my Commission's Final Report.
Pride, not because the Accord's proposed directions are a vindication of what I recommended; after all, even a cursory review of the myriad of recent task force and special committee reports on the future of health care will reveal broad consensus already existed on most key issues. Rather, pride because First Ministers clearly listened to Canadians' urgent plea for fundamental changes to the health care system and for governments to work collaboratively to strengthen it.
Indeed, I referred to the Health Accord as a landmark for a number of reasons.
First, the first ministers have publicly confirmed their commitment to the five principles of the Canada Health Act.
Second, they recognized that reform and new public investments are required to meet Canadians' desire for a sustainable health care system that provides timely access to quality health services.
Third, they took a solid first step toward reform by not only reaching consensus on a number of targets and objectives for improving the health care system, they also agreed to report publicly on their individual and collective progress in meeting them.
Fourth, they accepted the imperative to improve transparency and accountability of Canada's health care system.
Fifth, they recognized the urgent need to better monitor population health and to address health disparities by directing Health Ministers to "continue to work on healthy living strategies and other initiatives to reduce disparities in health status."
Last, and perhaps most significantly, they agreed to work collaboratively with each other, with providers and with Canadians, in shaping systems future, by agreeing to the creation of a Health Council of Canada. I'll have more to say on this issue shortly.
These are not insignificant achievements, and First Ministers deserve credit for their efforts, for their flexibility and for their leadership.
Over the past number of weeks, I have made a number of presentations in which I commented on specific aspects of the Accord. Let me briefly summarize the gist of my comments. I will then outline for you what I believe to be the critical next steps on the journey toward reform.
In doing so, I will focus specifically on the need for a strong and effective health Council of Canada.
The 2003 Health Accord
In addition to the points I have already covered, there is much to commend the 2003 Health Accord.
For example, Canadians should be pleased that First Ministers agreed to embrace a reform agenda that goes beyond a simple focus on hospitals and physician services. The ambitious and explicit targets that have been established for ensuring 24/7 access by Canadians to frontline primary health care is an important and positive development.
Canadians should also welcome the collective commitment by First Ministers to set certain national objectives in regard to home care, especially for community mental health services.
This is a praiseworthy step forward, as is the recognition by First Ministers of the need for action to provide catastrophic prescription drug coverage for Canadians and the decision to allocate $1.3 billion for First Nations health.
Finally, the agreement to replace the Canada Health & Social Transfer with a dedicated Canada Health Transfer will improve transparency and accountability in regard to what each level of government is contributing to the health care system.
However, I also have some fairly strong views in relation to the adequacy of the dollars on the table and where and how they will be spent to improve and strengthen the health care system for all Canadians.
Make no mistake: there is a lot of taxpayer money on the table in the current Accord. Depending on the assumptions used - and I don't care to get drawn into sterile debates over what constitutes "new" and "old money" - there si somewhere between $30 and $34.8 billion at stake over the next several years.
But I have 4 major concerns with the dollars.
First, there is less money than what the Premiers were seeking, less money than what the Senate Committee report suggested was necessary, less money than what my own Commission recommended and, most importantly, less money than is needed for the federal government to contribute its historical federal share of the medicare bargain.
Second, while First Ministers accepted allocating some $16 billion over the next 5 years to a Health Reform Fund, there are still too few details available to know what the Health Reform Fund will actually achieve, what conditions, if any, will apply, or what criteria will be used to evaluate its effectiveness.
I have similar concerns about the immediate $2.5 billion top-up that has been agreed to, ostensibly for assisting provinces to address urgent priorities-like reducing waitlists and improving timely access to care, especially advanced diagnostic services. If the $2.5 billion is spent wisely and according to a coherent plan, it can make a positive difference.
However, unless the federal government is prepared to step up to the plate, the only real guarantee that the additional $2.5 billion monies will in fact be devoted to health care will be hard public scrutiny.
Third, much of the money available within the Health Reform Fund will be back-loaded, and this will delay urgently needed reforms in a number of areas.
For example, my report recommended an additional $3.5 billion in federal health funding in 2003/2004 and a further $5 billion in 2004/2005- all of it specifically targeted in 5 priority areas to kick-start the process of transforming the system.
Thats $8.5 billion over 2 years, all targeted toward change. Thereafter, federal funding would be fixed at 25% of provincial CHA-related spending. Under the Health Reform Fund, less than $1 billion will be available in Year 1 for transforming the system, and funding increases will only rise gradually thereafter. This doesnt mean change will not occur, only that it will occur more slowly than would, in my view, be desirable.
Last, the inability of First Ministers to agree on a method for financing health care that results in stable, predictable funding that supports long-term planning, is frankly disappointing.
The Path Ahead
I do not want my comments to be construed as damning the Accord with faint praise. As a former Premier, I can personally attest to how difficult and politically fraught the federal-provincial arena can be. The Health Accord is, I repeat, a landmark achievement that provides a strong foundation for revitalizing our health care system. It is a strong step forward, not a step back.
Now, as you know, there is no shortage of areas in our health care system where we can do better:
We need to better coordinate and support the expansion and alignment of health professionals and of our health infrastructure, making sure plans in all jurisdictions can keep in step with patient needs and expectations.
We need to much more to make timely access to quality care for all Canadians a reality.
We need to focus more on preventing chronic diseases and invest more in population health and wellness initiatives that make the system more sustainable and that promote self-reliance.
We need to upgrade our national capacity in health research, especially as it applies to population health, and in applied health informatics.
We need more collaborative initiatives, like the Common Drug Review process that came on stream earlier this year, to help us to get a handle on containing rising drug costs. And we need to ensure we have a regulatory system that is more responsive to public policy imperatives for safety, affordability, security of supply, ethical standards and competitiveness.
However, I believe that only limited progress can be made in tackling these problems anywhere in this country in the absence of a coherent and coordinated national plan of action. This presupposes that the conditions exist for the federal and provincial governments to move forward together.
We are getting much closer, as the restraint exhibited by First Ministers throughout the meetings leading up to the Health Accord indicates, but we are not there yet.
To make headway on this problem, I believe we must continue to make progress in three key areas.
First, I believe we must change the way we finance our health care system, not just to provide the necessary stability, but to reduce the unproductive tensions between the Federal government and the provinces.
Second, I believe we need to modernize the Canada Health Act to reflect the reality of how health care is delivered in Canada today.
Last, we need to establish an effective Health Council of Canada to make the health system more accountable to taxpayers and to give patients and providers a stronger voice and a greater say in shaping its future directions. Permit me to summarize my views:
Permit me to summarize my views: Funding the Health System & the CHA
In my final report, I recommended that by 2005/06, the federal government cover a minimum of 25% of provincial health spending for CHA expenditures and that this be provided in the form of a dedicated cash-only transfer. I also proposed an escalator clause within the transfer to allow the federal share of health spending to track inflation and adapt to changing patterns of provincial health care spending.
Taking account of tax points that were permanently transferred to the provinces in 1977, the 25% cash transfer would restore the federal governments share of CHA-covered health spending to historic levels.
What would this new funding mechanism achieve? For one thing, it would remove an ongoing irritant from the already volatile inter-governmental relations mix, while simultaneously improving transparency and accountability. The federal and provincial governments would be working from the same numbers, and they would not be continually negotiating the size or growth of the federal transfer.
In short, the result would be a more positive federal-provincial dynamic and adequate, stable and predictable funding for the system.
I also linked the 25% federal funding floor by 2005-2006 to targeted funding in a number of specific areas over the next two fiscal years.
The targeted funding was to focus on addressing key short-term priorities of Canadians, such as improving timely access to care and to advanced diagnostic services. It was also intended to "kick-start" the revitalization of Medicare by providing federal funding to support home care and prescription drug treatment as integral components of a modern health care system.
To entrench these changes, I also recommended that the Canada Health Act be amended to include priority home care services and, over time, prescription drug coverage. In my view, this would acknowledge that health care today is more than just about doctors and hospitals.
Keeping in mind that prescription drug coverage and homecare are the fastest growth areas of health care spending, this would also ensure the federal government was financially responsible for paying its share of the system's expansion.
I do want to clarify that my preference for a fixed federal funding floor does not mean carte blanche for provinces to spend health dollars as they see fit. I absolutely recognize that under our constitution, provinces have primary jurisdiction for health care.
But they do not have exclusive jurisdiction, and the federal government has a legitimate and constitutionally recognized national interest responsibility for ensuring the integrity and effectiveness of the system. The need to encourage and facilitate coordinated action to reduce health disparities among the poor and our First Nations is only one example.
Should the funding approach outlined in my report be accepted, it will make all the more important the need for an inclusive, objective and effective Health Council of Canada. A Health Council of Canada
One of the real barriers to improved cooperation and coordination in our health care system is that the different levels of government, and sometimes different provincial governments, begin from very different starting points on simple issues of fact.
Hence, my report suggested the creation of a Health Council of Canada whose membership would be broadly reflective of the various interests at play in health care: patients, providers and officials.
Its main purposes would be to provide clear, accurate, and transparent information to the public and the providers regarding both expenditures and results and to promote collaboration among governments.
This would incorporate the following features:
It would being together, under a single roof, a number of existing federal and provincial advisory structures and agencies and provide an objective and neutral forum whose expertise governments could draw upon as required for support.
It would give patients and providers a more direct say in how the system operates and the means to monitor its performance.
It would serve as a focal point for gathering health information, for setting common health data and informatics standards, and for interpreting and reporting to Canadians on health outcomes.
And in time, as trust was gradually built, the Council would become a trusted source of advice for governments on how best to discharge their individual and collective responsibilities for the system and assist in fact-finding and in resolving disputes over interpretation of the Canada Health Act.
I note that the 2003 Health Accord commits governments to establish a Health Council of Canada by May 5, 2003. Obviously, the Councils eventual terms-of-reference and governance structure, and the autonomy and quality of those selected to serve on it, will determine its effectiveness.
I remain hopeful that the First Ministers will create an effective, inclusive and independent Health Council that will do more than just focus narrowly on the implementation of the Accord.
Many experts, and Canadians generally, will be watching carefully in hope that the eventual Council has the mandate, resources, independence and leadership it requires to make a positive difference and to influence the future direction of health care in Canada. Conclusion
The 18 months I spent as Commissioner were among the most exciting, challenging and rewarding of my public life.
The process renewed my faith in Canadians, in their maturity, in their capacity to understand and make tough choices, and in the common values that unite us as a country.
I believe absolutely that we can make our health care system the best in the world if we are prepared to heed the advice of Canadians and to respect their wishes. And I believe that the Health Accord is a good starting point for getting there.
Before I conclude, I would like to note that, while our health care system will always be central to ensuring a healthy population, it is also important for us to remember that it is not the only factor.
Income, the quality of our air and water, early childhood education and development opportunities, the security and availability of affordable and nutritious food, adequate shelter, and recreation, are among the other critically important determinants of the health outcomes we seek as individuals and as a nation.
If we reform and stabilize our health care system but neglect these other factors, we will not achieve our health goals nor will we be cost effective.
Our vision of becoming the healthiest nation on Earth requires a coherent and integrated approach.
Permit me one final observation... this time not as a former Health Commissioner, but as an individual with a profound respect for democratic institutions and processes and a deep love of this wonderful country.
It will be for political scientists and historians to assess the significance of that remarkable six-month period last year when Canadians came out in massive numbers to participate in the debate over the future of their health care system. When they came out to try and make a difference.
I don't think anyone ever expected- I certainly didn't- that our processes would have so galvanizing an effect.
I'm acutely aware that over the past decade, public opinion polls have ranked health care the foremost issue for Canadians.
I know too that the extent of what I would characterize as "health literacy" among ordinary citizens was one of the most eye-opening aspects of our consultations.
And yet now, in the aftermath, when I reflect upon all that I heard, and all that I learned, I am left with a clear sense that it was not just health care people were talking about when they came to our meetings, or wrote, or e-mailed or called to share their views. It was also the health of our political institutions and of our democracy.
I think that a fair number Canadians saw in our consultations an opportunity to participate in a direct way in the democratic process. That their contributions could make a difference.
That for once, they were not powerless. That the demise of a program to which they were profoundly attached, and which appeared under threat, was not necessarily a foregone conclusion.
I am proud and relieved that through the Health Accord, Canada's First Ministers chose to respect the wishes of Canadians.
To be sure, there is still some distance to travel before we achieve the type of health care system Canadians expect and deserve. But we are certainly a lot closer to our destination today than we have been for some time and I am more convinced than ever that it is within our reach.
The vision is clear, the pathway set. All we need to move ahead is uncommon cooperation and you folks know all about that.
Thank you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOW'S THE TIME TO STAND UP FOR MEDICARE, SAYS ROY ROMANOW FOLLOWING COURT RULING (JUNE 10) Now's the Time to Stand Up for Medicare By Roy Romanow
Op-ed Published in Globe and Mail, June 10, 2005
Canadians should be optimistic that the nation-building values of Canada's public health system were reaffirmed by yesterday's Supreme Court ruling, with all of the court's contributing members recognizing the need to maintain the integrity of our public medicare plan.
That said, the decision certainly creates the appearance that the slide to privatization has increased in the province of Quebec. It is also fair to say that evidence of creeping commercialization is showing up in other parts of our country as well.
All of this means that the not-for-profit debate that has been around since the beginning of medicare has picked up impetus once again.
There are those who have already seized on aspects of the court's decision to claim victory for selling something old as something new. They advocate for a return to pre-medicare days and, with their strong advocacy for a pure market approach to health care, they have gleefully proclaimed the death of medicare just has they have done in the past.
Not so fast.
The evidence is overwhelming and clear: The two-tiering of health care represents a march backward in time, to when good health care depended on the size of one's wallet - to a situation like that which currently prevails in the United States, where last year, more than 50 per cent of all personal bankruptcies were due to health care expenses. They just eliminated 25,000 jobs in the United States, largely due to the company's burden of health-care costs.
Cherry-picking great examples of American health care practices while ignoring the millions of the uninsured who get sick just worrying about getting sick does not make the case. It is a false economy to advocate for transferring the costs of health care from the public purse to the private purse. We will pay one way or the other.
The simple fact is that the yearly percentage of GDP spent on total health care in Canada is at about 9.6 per cent as compared to nearly 15 per cent the United States. That's more spending in the United States, yet the result is less coverage and worse health outcomes.
Because the U.S. model is so unacceptable to Canadians, modern day advocates of privatization are now cherry-picking various bits and pieces from Europe. But their concocting European/Canadian hybrids as just the latest Trojan Horse for treating health care as a commodity.
The Supreme Court has provided a wakeup call to all of us, especially those charged with fixing our single-tier medicare program. This judgment must serve to hasten the progress of real reform. As a result of last September's first ministers' health-care deal, money is no longer an excuse.
Many elected officials say "they are standing up for medicare". They understand the clear evidence regarding the cost-effectiveness of a "public good" approach over the "market" alternative. And perhaps some leaders also publicly extol the virtues of our single tier approach because they know that's what an overwhelming number of Canadians want. Either way, the rhetoric must be backed up by more urgent and tangible progress.
The blueprint for change is there - it's just waiting to be put into practice. But we must apply the entire blueprint: An integrated approach is critical. To take on the problem of wait times in an isolated way without implementing reforms to primary and home care, will not work over the long haul.
Dealing with some wait times may pay dividends, but other serious problems, such as acute care, will keep popping up if an ad hoc style rules over an integrated approach. What's vital to real progress is investing more money in health promotion, increasing the role of nurses and other health professionals, and committing to the kind of rigorous and transparent accountability that remains elusive.
Medicare needs fixing, not scrapping. Canadians overwhelmingly favor this approach over one (however disguised) that allows those with wealth to purchase health care, draw off doctors from our universal system and, at the same time, does nothing to reform, strengthen, and sustain the system for all Canadians.
The progress and pace of health care reform will either prevent or fuel a myriad of further court challenges. It will take strong, determined, and visionary leadership to achieve a modernized medicare system, and in doing so, a better nation.
This is one of those moments when Canadian people need to stand up for medicare and declare that reports its death have been greatly exaggerated.
Roy J. Romanow led the Commission on the Future of Health Care in Canada and is an Economic Justice Award Recipient of the Atkinson Charitable Foundation.
Robert - 16 Jul 2005 19:20 GMT > ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA > SCOTIA > Speech for The Cooperators > > Halifax He doesn't get it and never will. He hated the Supreme Court decision and he won't change the system. It is accountable only to the politicians and not to the people. You hear the same rhetoric over and over again on how cheap it is to do it the Canadian way. The Canadian way is to delay until somebody dies or to live in pain for years before anything is done because it's cheaper that way. It's cheaper to deny services and that's the bottom line. There is no transparency or accountability in the Canadian system. He does not even mention the thousands of healthcare workers fleeing. You need to put a fence at the border to keep them in.
george conklin - 16 Jul 2005 22:09 GMT >> ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA >> SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The Canadian way is to delay until somebody dies or to live in pain for > years before anything is done because it's cheaper that way. Cheap, low-level slander. Shame on you. Spending twice as much tomorrow will only enrich the providers, your only obvious concern.
Bryan - 16 Jul 2005 22:22 GMT >>>ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA >>>SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Cheap, low-level slander. Shame on you. Spending twice as much tomorrow > will only enrich the providers, your only obvious concern. Right, it only enriches the provider, the fact that someone's life was saved and they didn't die on line is totally irrelevant right?
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 16 Jul 2005 22:50 GMT >>>>ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA >>>>SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Right, it only enriches the provider, the fact that someone's life was > saved and they didn't die on line is totally irrelevant right? dear Bryan...another bigot!!!
george conklin - 17 Jul 2005 00:09 GMT >>>>ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA >>>>SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Right, it only enriches the provider, the fact that someone's life was > saved and they didn't die on line is totally irrelevant right? Canadians have a longer life-expectancy than we do. They are equally likely to be alive 9 years after a heart attack as Americans (9 years is the time it takes a bypass operation graft to fail). Canadians have universal health care; we screw the poor while bankupting those without covereage. Charity does virtually nothing to help out, and when they do, they want newspaper coverage.
Robert - 17 Jul 2005 01:11 GMT > >>>>ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA > >>>>SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Charity does virtually nothing to help out, and when they do, they want > newspaper coverage. So the Canadian Supreme Court was wrong? The legislators need to pass laws making Health Canada exempt from the Canadian Constitution on rights for it's citizens.
The Right One - 27 Jul 2005 10:28 GMT > >>>>ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA > >>>>SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Charity does virtually nothing to help out, and when they do, they want > newspaper coverage. It's the Canadian -er- liberal way. -- Terry Pearson Dr. Of Conservative Studies http://www.rightpoint.org Liberal thinking, Call George Bush A liar, Then Vote For Paul Martin. Ahahahahahahahahahahaahaha "Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end; there it is." ~Winston Churchill
Glen Hallick - 27 Jul 2005 22:18 GMT Spin a LIE that some one hates Jews and then runaway from being accountable. Sounds like "Dr. Pearson".
Glen
>> >>>>ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA >> >>>>SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > may deride it; but, in the end; > there it is." ~Winston Churchill Robert Sveinson - 27 Jul 2005 22:54 GMT > Spin a LIE that some one hates Jews and then runaway from being accountable.
> Sounds like "Dr. Pearson"**. of consevative studies**
consevative studies proctology!
Leo J Callaghan - 27 Jul 2005 23:35 GMT >> Spin a LIE that some one hates Jews and then runaway from being >accountable. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >consevative studies proctology! like all liberals you take liberties with peoples a.ses. you all seem to share a very sick and nasty fetish.
there is a closet fag basher, cameron henry, here abouts, who wants my hetero a.s. he is aka mr canada. to be mr canada you have to be a liberal from ontario and believe that ontario controls canada and ... is important. ontario matters to ontario. and that caroline parrish is a smart mp and does represent her riding. pathetic that voters would re-elect such a horrible dunce. but that is democracy for you: stupid people voting for stupid liberal candidates.
Colin Hayden - 17 Jul 2005 00:58 GMT > >> ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA > >> SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Cheap, low-level slander. Shame on you. Spending twice as much tomorrow > will only enrich the providers, your only obvious concern. Robert needs to exaggerate and lie because he knows he's wrong and has no sustainable argument.
Robert - 17 Jul 2005 01:17 GMT > > >> ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA > > >> SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Robert needs to exaggerate and lie because he knows he's wrong and has no > sustainable argument. You mean the Canadian Supreme Court exaggerates and lies don't you? What were the findings held by the Court?
outrider - 17 Jul 2005 01:48 GMT > > >> ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA > > >> SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Robert needs to exaggerate and lie because he knows he's wrong and has no > sustainable argument. Pssst: don't point out Robert's obvious ignorance of what the SC decision actually meant and where it has jurisdicition....please. I am enjoying watching him s**t his drawers all over usenet.
Zee
The Right One - 16 Jul 2005 22:49 GMT > > ROY ROMANOW SPEECH TO THE COOPERATORS APRIL 15, 2003 HALIFAX, NOVA > > SCOTIA [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > He does not even mention the thousands of healthcare workers fleeing. You > need to put a fence at the border to keep them in. It's a good union man looking asfter the hc unions. To hell with the people. If the nurses want more money, they leave you to die on the gurnies. -- Terry Pearson Dr. Of Conservative Studies http://www.rightpoint.org Liberal thinking, Call George Bush A liar, Then Vote For Paul Martin. Ahahahahahahahahahahaahaha "Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end; there it is." ~Winston Churchill
(PeteCresswell) - 17 Jul 2005 02:56 GMT Per Robert:
>the system. It is accountable only to the politicians and not >to the people. I don't live in Canada and have never used the Canadian system.
I live in the USA and use one of the employer/employee systems here.
Seems to me like the Canadian system is more accountable than mine in that healthcare becomes a political issue. i.e. People can get voted out of office over it.
By contrast, the US system I'm in uses nameless people to grant/deny care. Are those people even doctors? I don't know.... I don't have access to their names and never will. "Nameless" is an apt description.
A lawyer/debator/economist could argue about "competetion", "free choice", and "free markets". Some of our congressmen or senators Could probably get all righteous about it and claim that he/she is in an HMO and it works just fine, thankyou.
But in the real world I find those issues to be moot.
To wit: ------- 1) As an employee, I have no way of switching health plans except by finding another job. Not a realistic method - especially in today's job market. Effectively, there is little or no competition.
2) Once I am enrolled in a specific health plan, I have no idea at all whether they will grant or deny care until the care is needed - and then it's too late. So effectively, there is no such thing as an informed consumer because the rules change while one is enrolled and are not apparent until it is too late.
My dad's roommate in a hospital some years back was a plumber who had total knee replacement in both knees. Going into the process, he had been assured that he would have physical therapy following the procedure. The day after the procedure, he woke up and was informed that there would be no therapy and his hospital stay was over - he gets sent home with two artificial knees and no training, no guidance...bupkis.
3) When I *really* need care, the insurer may drop me. e.g. I get severely ill, my employer moves me to longterm disability, then puts me on the street.
Even though I now have neither an income nor the ability to earn one, my wife somehow scrapes up the money to continue the premiums. But at renewel time the insurance company makes a busines decision and discontinues the coverage. Happened to my son-in-law's brother. When he finally died the family was desititute and he was a ward of the state. But he had health insurance....
3) If I'm unlucky enough to be in an HMO, I can't even select my doctors or try another doctor if the current one isn't doing the job or he's too hard to get to.
My daughter-in-law lives within walking distance of the local hospital, yet here HMO makes her travel over 20 miles just to get a simple x-ray. Heaven forbid she should not have a car...
Dr. Ramesh doesn't speak intelligible English? My tough luck. He's already killed seven people in India and is trying for an even dozen here? My tough luck.
Dr Kim not only doesn't speak intelligible English, but doesn't prescribe antibiotics for prostatitis. "Uhhhhh, you take hot sitzu bad..." Oh well.... Been there. Kaiser Permanente in Hawaii. Months upon months of agonizing pain. My whole life was collapsing around me. Had to relocate to Philadelphia to get competant care. Got on the right antibiotic and it was over in about 10 days.
There's plenty more, but I can see that I'm starting to rant... Bottom line, somebody will have to tell me quite a few horror stories to make the Canadian system look any worse than the so-called "system" in the USA.
 Signature PeteCresswell
Robert - 17 Jul 2005 03:42 GMT > Per Robert: > >the system. It is accountable only to the politicians and not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > healthcare becomes a political issue. i.e. People can get voted out of office > over it. There is no accountability as it is government run. People get voted out yes, but the system does not get voted out and you can not leave the system. The private option is outlawed and that in itself leads to unaccountability. They answer to no one as there is no alternative.
> By contrast, the US system I'm in uses nameless people to grant/deny care. Are > those people even doctors? I don't know.... I don't have access to their > names and never will. "Nameless" is an apt description. Medicare is the same way. Medicare here is the national system there. You don't have to imagine what it would be like. My job offers an option for HMO or not. The deductibles are different but we have a choice. In Canada there is no choice. If you don't have a choice then complain to your employer or get another job. Those options are open for you. There is no option in Canada. It reminds me of people on Medicaid MediCal that are complaining they have no choices. They should get a job and work like everybody else. You want better benefits healthcare, 401's etc then get a better job. You want something for nothing then people can go to Canada and feel as though they are entileled to everything.
> A lawyer/debator/economist could argue about "competetion", "free choice", and > "free markets". Some of our congressmen or senators Could probably get all > righteous about it and claim that he/she is in an HMO and it works just fine, > thankyou. Competition is what makes things work and gives people an option. I have an option and I took the HMO. Without options then yes it becomes like Canada and it sucks. Lack of competition corresponds to lack of accountability no matter what system you are in. In the US we have a two tier system with Medicare sucking lemons.
> But in the real world I find those issues to be moot. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > another job. Not a realistic method - especially in today's job market. > Effectively, there is little or no competition. Let me say that your job sucks especially if you can not find another one. In short you are lucky to have the job and so your employer knows it. Some jobs have no insurance at all. Let me know if you deserve a cadillac instead of a ford. You want a good lifestyle then it takes some work.
> 2) Once I am enrolled in a specific health plan, I have no idea at all whether > they will grant or deny care until the care is needed - and then it's too late. > So effectively, there is no such thing as an informed consumer because the rules > change while one is enrolled and are not apparent until it is too late. Life in a free state is more complicated then life in a socialist state. They can make all the decisions for you if you like.
> Even though I now have neither an income nor the ability to earn one, my wife > somehow scrapes up the money to continue the premiums. But at renewel time the > insurance company makes a busines decision and discontinues the coverage. I would suggest you try and find a job or move to Canada where everything is free.
> 3) If I'm unlucky enough to be in an HMO, I can't even select my doctors or try > another doctor if the current one isn't doing the job or he's too hard to get > to. Finding a doctor in Canada is very difficult with long distances involved.
> My daughter-in-law lives within walking distance of the local hospital, yet here > HMO makes her travel over 20 miles just to get a simple x-ray. Heaven forbid > she should not have a car... With the reduction of doctors in Canada, most leaving, 20 miles sounds great.
> Dr. Ramesh doesn't speak intelligible English? My tough luck. He's already > killed seven people in India and is trying for an even dozen here? My tough > luck. You can learn from him. He is an immigrant who does not accept your philosophy of entilement. He left India where the system is similiar to Canada. That is probably why he left. You on the other hand, have a victim philosophy. You, a native speaker, can not even compete with a third world immigrant who speakes very poor English. I am also an immigrant and have a better job then you. You have low paying jobs being taken over by highly motivated illegal immigrants and highly skilled jobs being taken over by educated immigrants and then their is you, complaining that you are entiled to something.
> Dr Kim not only doesn't speak intelligible English, but doesn't prescribe > antibiotics for prostatitis. "Uhhhhh, you take hot sitzu bad..." Oh well.... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > somebody will have to tell me quite a few horror stories to make the Canadian > system look any worse than the so-called "system" in the USA. No Pete, Canada is great and you need to go there. We will exchange you for a Canadian doctor any time. You can correct my spelling buddy.
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 18 Jul 2005 18:19 GMT >> Per Robert: >> >the system. It is accountable only to the politicians and not [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Medicare is the same way. Medicare here is the national system there. Robert...don't know if you have any personal experience with Medicare YET...but hubby has had it for 7 months...I find it amazingly simple...no paperwork..and they have paid "their share" of every bill submitted...a Blue Cross supplemental picks up the rest....Medicare pays for all reasonable problems..no,,probably not chiro or massage...again..personal responsibility
don't get me started on the so called Medicare drug plan!!! that truly is a sham...by the time you pay the monthly fee,,,then THEY pay what they think they should,,,and YOU limited to about $1500 a year...it just doesn't make fiscal sense...one can shop around and pay cash for meds...get your doc to write scripts for twice the dose..and split the pills...etc...
> don't have to imagine what it would be like. > My job offers an option for HMO or not. The deductibles are different but [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > nothing then people can go to Canada and feel as though they are entileled > to everything. excellent comment
>> A lawyer/debator/economist could argue about "competetion", "free >> choice", [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > for > a Canadian doctor any time. You can correct my spelling buddy. agreed...
Robert - 18 Jul 2005 21:15 GMT > >> Per Robert: > >> >the system. It is accountable only to the politicians and not [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Cross supplemental picks up the rest....Medicare pays for all reasonable > problems..no,,probably not chiro or massage...again..personal responsibility That's true as it is simple. The only problem is that their is a lot of things that are not covered without supplemental. The combination is a good one. Canada can not allow that combination because of the draconian heavy handed rule on healthcare practitioners.
> don't get me started on the so called Medicare drug plan!!! that truly is a > sham.. Political crap that looks good on paper for politicians. Multiple this a hundred times and you get the Canadian system.
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 18 Jul 2005 22:08 GMT >> >> Per Robert: >> >> >the system. It is accountable only to the politicians and not [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > one. Canada can not allow that combination because of the draconian heavy > handed rule on healthcare practitioners. good point...one does need a supplemental...luckily at his age it is only $125 a month...
everyone around here is delighted to treated Medicare plus supplemental patients!!! and we have the same choice as we did with his PPO
>> don't get me started on the so called Medicare drug plan!!! that truly >> is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Political crap that looks good on paper for politicians. Multiple this a > hundred times and you get the Canadian system. Sean Murphy - 17 Jul 2005 04:10 GMT > Per Robert: > >the system. It is accountable only to the politicians and not [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > somebody will have to tell me quite a few horror stories to make the Canadian > system look any worse than the so-called "system" in the USA. Despite what Robert (someone who seems to know absolutely nothing about the system in Canada) thinks, accountability is very much in the foreground of the Canadian system. It comprises a major part of parties election platforms and is a key factor in most election debates, unlike the USA where I saw the domestic issues debate and the pharmaceutical question was handled by Bush and Kerry by saying that they agreed on people purchasing drugs from Canada. I couldn't help but wonder why they were so afraid of the drug companies.
Robert seems to be repeating all the HMO propaganda about the Canadian health system, the HMO's have it in their best interests to portray the Canadian system as a bad one because it helps their fight to prevent a similar system in the USA. The HMO's have collectively spent $4 Billion on fighting a public system in the USA since 1993.
Robert - 17 Jul 2005 05:50 GMT "Sean Murphy" <sean.murphy@canada.com> wrote in message > Despite what Robert (someone who seems to know absolutely nothing about the
> system in Canada) thinks, accountability is very much in the foreground of > the Canadian system. It comprises a major part of parties election platforms How long has the Canadian system been in place? When did the politicians promise accountability? Like every election cycle?. They supply lip service that's all. The only remedy was the Supreme Court. They said delays denied the individuals right as given in the consitiution. Political platforms? Give me a break.
> and is a key factor in most election debates, unlike the USA where I saw the > domestic issues debate and the pharmaceutical question was handled by Bush > and Kerry by saying that they agreed on people purchasing drugs from Canada. Hey, trying to help with business there.
> I couldn't help but wonder why they were so afraid of the drug companies. Canada promises to include pharm drugs along with home health care for the next elections.
> Robert seems to be repeating all the HMO propaganda about the Canadian health > system, Is the Supreme Court ruling propaganda now? Is the Canadian Medical Association stance on medical doctors leaving Canada a propaganda ploy? You can put your head in the sand and all I see is people complaining and going to the courts for remedies. You can deny all the problems in the world and that only makes my point. That's why medical professionals are leaving Canada.
Hospital crisis? What crisis? Charlotte Gray Charlotte Gray is a contributing editor at CMAJ.
On Jan. 17, Lloyd Robertson told the million or so people watching CTV's national news that "an Ontario family is planning their son's funeral as politicians and medical professionals debate whether he was a victim of the province's emergency room crisis." The Toronto teen, Joshua Flewelling, died of a severe asthma attack as an ambulance drove 18 extra minutes trying to find a hospital willing to admit him. The emergency room of the nearest hospital was clogged with flu patients and refused to accept him because it was on "redirect." http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/162/7/1043
Recently released information from the OPHRDC reveals that in the last year (2000 relative to 1999), Ontario experienced a net loss of 110 physicians. Included in this figure is a loss of 48 obstetrician-gynecologists, which translates into a 7.3 per cent loss for that specialty. During the same year, Ontario lost 5.5 per cent of its otolaryngologists. These are dramatic single-year declines! In 1999, the McKendry Report concluded that Ontario required a five per cent increase in physician supply in order to address an estimated provincial shortage of about 1,000 doctors. In 2000, the Expert Panel Report estimated that the physician shortage had increased by about 250. Thus, in less than two years following McKendry's Report, Ontario experienced a further 25 to 30 per cent deterioration in physician human resources.
This points to an increasingly urgent situation that severely impacts patients, doctors and other health-care providers.
Based on the work of McKendry and the Expert Panel, the 1,250 physician shortage estimated in 2000, will increase to between 2,400 and 3,400 by 2010, depending on the degree of government policy intervention (Figure 3). Using a "best case" scenario, in terms of aggressive policy intervention, Ontario's physician shortage is projected to almost double in 10 short years. Given that the average physician provides services to about 575 members of the population, a shortage of 1,250 physicians negatively impacts over 700,000 Ontario residents. By 2010, the growing physician shortage, and the concurrent impediments on system access, will impact between 1.4 million to two million Ontarians. http://www.oma.org/pcomm/OMR/oct/01crisis.htm
Future of health care dominates meeting as CMA urges governments to fix "system in crisis"
Frustrations with chronic underfunding were at centre stage throughout the meeting, as the roughly 550 registered delegates and observers heard a litany of complaints about its impact on patient care, ranging from high readmission rates for newborns to patients dying while awaiting cardiac surgery.
http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/201/300/cdn_medical_association/cmaj/vol-155/issue- 6/0744.htm
the HMO's have it in their best interests to portray the Canadian
> system as a bad one because it helps their fight to prevent a similar system > in the USA. The HMO's have collectively spent $4 Billion on fighting a > public system in the USA since 1993. There already is a public system. It is called Medicare for the elderly and Medicaid or MediCal in each individual state. There is also the VA hospitals which are veterans hospitals which are "free". It is the record of the national system which is run by politicians in both countries and that suck in both countries that people object to. I think Medicare in the states suck. It is better to have private insurance. It is not better to provide Medicare to every US citizen and ban all private healthcare as that is just plain stupid. If you don't work and need healthcare and think that Medicaid sucks then go to Canada. They are opening up a new car plant out there. Don't give me this crap about how great the Canadian system is. I don't care. If you like it then fine. Don't post here about how great it is. I am not posting here about how great the US system is. Most of the posts about US healthcare is by Canadians trying to use propaganda to maintain their system there. Google crisis healthcare Canada. Those of you in Canada then hold your nose with all the court decisions going down. You will be forced to provide in a timely manner medical services which is impossible. Why? Because the medical people are leaving.
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 18 Jul 2005 18:13 GMT > Per Robert: >>the system. It is accountable only to the politicians and not [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > their > names and never will. "Nameless" is an apt description. ]I am curious as to what care you have been denied??
In most instances...when you...or your employer "changes" an insurance carrier/system...you,,the member are provided with a HUGE booklet that outlines what is and what isn't covered....and no...not all companies will cover the same things...
for instance...when hubby's Cobra coverage changed to a different carrier (obviously Cobra is thru his previous employer...so that firm changes..all Cobra people change with it)...so the big fat book arrives...I read it cover to cover...two things affected me..for one..this carrier did not cover "outpatient psych...ie shrink"....nor did it cover chiropractic (both services I had been using)...
solution?? I tell my "new" PCP ...who actually was the same doc,,,as he accepted both plans...that I know longer could see psych to obtain my anti depressants(he had sent me to them in the fist place)....voila....he begins writing the script for the meds...probably shoulda in the first place!!
as for chiropractic..sorry..not part of this plan(not uncommon)...luckily chiro is relatively inexpensive at $45 a visit...which I need only several times a year...so I pay cash...
> A lawyer/debator/economist could argue about "competetion", "free choice", > and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > they will grant or deny care until the care is needed - and then it's too > late. again...read their brochure...most if not all I have seen are VERY very specific as to what they can and do not cover...
BTW...it is unlikely that any "emergency" situations will not be covered..ie chest pain,,broken bones...so one does NOT have to hope and pray that they will be covered...another tip...your plan likely will list what hospitals,,clinics etc that they want you to use....USE THEM....unless it is truly an emergency...
personally when it comes time to "pick" a carrier ...I look FIRST at what hospitals it uses...as a nurse I KNOW which hospitals I wouldn't want to be in...ask a nurse if you don't know..
> So effectively, there is no such thing as an informed consumer because the > rules [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > no > training, no guidance...bupkis again...I don't doubt that happened...ALL insurance carriers have patient advocates...or "membership services"...amazing what a call to them will get you..
example..last fall I had knee surgery..of course they "gave" me crutches as I left the surgicenter...how else can a knee surgery patient walk?? ...months later I find a statement where the carrier "rejected" the $45 bill for the crutches!!! I pick up the phone...call the customer support center...yeah..got some low level clerk...I calmly ask her if she has ever had kneee surgery?? nooooo she says...so I calmly inform her that crutches are REQUIRED after knee surgery...they cannot refuse to pay for them..and BTW..did they want me to call the insurance commishioner??
they paid for the crutches....squeeky wheel got the grease..my point being...there was NO item in their book that read "no crutches after knee surgery"...crutches are medically necessary...I educated the clerk..she authorized payment of the bill...
> 3) When I *really* need care, the insurer may drop me. e.g. I get > severely > ill, my employer moves me to longterm disability, then puts me on the > street. a...your insurer CANNOT drop you simply because you need care...it is against the law....if your employer chooses to put you on longterm disability..are you saying there are no health benefits ?? surely you don't think we are going to believe that
again...you have rights..insurers cannot drop you if you are sick...as long as your employer (and you..if your are paying part)...are making the premium payments...
solution...again..call member services,,or patient adovacy or whatever your carrier calls such a service..
> Even though I now have neither an income nor the ability to earn one, my > wife [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > another doctor if the current one isn't doing the job or he's too hard to > get unfortunately being in an HMO can be a problem...decent HMOs have patient advocacy people...use how to use them
> to. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > forbid > she should not have a car... sorry...but I don't buy that line....I have VERY costly PPO private insurance (costs ME $814 a month..not to mention co pays...etc)...I need a mammogram and a bone density..yep...have to drive 20 miles for each test (different locations too!)...do I expect a mammo machine or bone density machine at EVERY location???? talk about not cost effective..
as to not having a car..sorry...surely someone can manage to drive her there?? it is called self reliance...too many expect to be spoon fed...bet she manages to get to her hair dresser??
> Dr. Ramesh doesn't speak intelligible English? My tough luck. He's > already [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Dr Kim not only doesn't speak intelligible English, but doesn't prescribe > antibiotics for prostatitis. antibiotics are only indicated if actual bacteria show up in your urine...pain,,swelling do not always mean infection..
in fact...we take and expect wayyy to many antibiotics..
"Uhhhhh, you take hot sitzu bad..." Oh well....
> Been there. Kaiser Permanente in Hawaii. Months upon months of > agonizing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Canadian > system look any worse than the so-called "system" in the USA. Robert - 18 Jul 2005 21:20 GMT > > Per Robert: > >>the system. It is accountable only to the politicians and not [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > chiro is relatively inexpensive at $45 a visit...which I need only several > times a year...so I pay cash... The other thing that can be done is if you know that it is not covered and you need it is to have payroll withholding that is untaxed. I got hearing aids that are not covered in insurance and I had the $2000 withheld and paid for them that way.
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 18 Jul 2005 22:46 GMT >> > Per Robert: >> >>the system. It is accountable only to the politicians and not [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > paid > for them that way. very true...but not working...so no payroll witholding...
but we did always use this option to cover things not covered..ie deductibles,,copays..eyeglasses,,dental..etc...
not all employers offer this however..as "they" have to do the administraton bs..
but..yes..a good option...
(PeteCresswell) - 19 Jul 2005 02:11 GMT Per <Hawki63@sbcglobal.net>:
>a...your insurer CANNOT drop you simply because you need care...it is >against the law....if your employer chooses to put you on longterm >disability..are you saying there are no health benefits ?? surely you don't >think we are going to believe that Well, they dropped the guy whose misfortune I recounted in my post and now he's dead. No problems for the insurance company there. Probably would have been dead even with medical care - but by dropping him, they undoubtedly saved a pile of money.
Like Mrs Ford, my esteemed 10th-grade English teacher - to whom I offer a lifetime of gratitude - I would make the distinction between "can" and "may".
We all "can" do just about anything within the limits of our minds/bodies.
The law probably says that a given health insurance company "may" not drop somebody who makes their payments - but if they do the patient has recourse or, perhaps, if the patient complains enough to the right people, the state may take action. But who with a really serious illness the time and energy for a legal/administrative battle?
But that's all moot in light of the *amount* of the payment set by the company (as below...)
It's not the period of time during which the employer puts somebody on longterm disability that I perceive as a problem.
It's the time after that when the employer finally fires the employee - when they put them on the street with no income, a serious illness and a one-on-one relationship with a huge corporation whose base motive is profit and not their medical care.
>again...you have rights..insurers cannot drop you if you are sick...as long >as your employer (and you..if your are paying part)...are making the premium >payments... Wistful thinking IMHO. As above, I have no doubt that the law forbids it - and that it sounds good in a sound byte on the evening news, but it's meaningless because there's nothing about keeping the premiums the same.
To argue ad-absurdum, there's no practical diff between dropping me and raising my premium to $750,000 per year - since I simply don't *have* $750,000 per year and never will.
But it doesn't have to be the absurd amount of $750,000. Remember: the person affected is out of work and sick. $25,000 would probably do the trick for most of us.
Remember the geniuses at Ford that sold the car with the defective gas tank that incenerated people in minor rear-end collisions - because some bean counter's estimate was that fixing the gas tank would cost something like two dollars more per car than the lawsuits? Somehow I don't think that those people work only in the auto industry.
 Signature PeteCresswell
caesarjbsquitti - 19 Jul 2005 03:56 GMT Health Care in Canada: Mistakes made by Romanow:
Lack of critical thinking, and perhaps politically motivated to conceal the truth of the matter.
1. The system is universal ? Well to some extent, most services are paid for by the government, but we have long lineups, and poor quality, ranked 24th in the world, Wyatt Watson Report 2000, forcing many people to the USA.
2. The system is not a true public system It is publically funded, hospitals are public, (which is not a great thing, they have unlimited funding from the taxpayer) and doctors are self employed, as are clilnics, owned mostly by doctor corporations.
3. As a follow up it appears that the system does not want 'privatization'...Truth is most clinics are already privatized, owned by doctors, and the doctors and unions don't want businessmen to enter into this world of private owned healthcare services paid for by the government.
4. The system is half and half. Publically funded, privately owned...(except for the hospitals)
5. The key problem with our system is that it pays doctors a measely fee per visit. That is per visit. (in most cases) This rewards repeat visits, referrals, testing, and treating symptoms and not problems.
6. One of the solutions is to put doctors on a salary system, Indirectly rewarding good health and prevention. (Italy has a system similar ranked in the top three, and doctors get a yearly fee per patient)
7. To understand the current medial system in Canada you have to be able to think beyond the 'intellectual' wall that the system has created including...
8. The College of physicians and surgeons, is a self regulating system that according to my experiences with the killing twice of my mother, and by investigations by the Toronto Star most complaints are white washed and hidden....EVEN MORE TRAGIC VERY FEW CASES ARE REFERRED TO THE QUALITY CONTROL SECTION TO understand why the problems develop...ie medications that cause more problems than they solve.
9. The people who profit from in ineffective system, ie testing do not want a simple effective system of disease control, nor prevention...don't be fooled , remeber the Gomery investiagions...!
Caesar J. B. Squitti
The Rainbow of Truth ! http://www.jesuschristcode.com
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