Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / General / August 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Gall Bladder Removal: Downsides?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
(PeteCresswell) - 13 Jul 2005 20:38 GMT
Aside, of course, from the inescapable risks of anesthesia, are there any
downsides to having the gall bladder out.

My last attack put me down for almost two weeks.   Aside from hurting a lot, I
missed way too much work.

The spiel that I got from the GP and the guy who read the ultrasound is that
there will be more attacks in the future and I want to avoid having to have it
out in a crisis situation.

The only downside I've heard so far is a limit on how much gluttony I can
inflict on myself without paying the price.    Personally, I can spin this as a
possible longterm benefit.

Anything else I should know?
Signature

PeteCresswell

Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 13 Jul 2005 20:46 GMT
> Aside, of course, from the inescapable risks of anesthesia, are there any
> downsides to having the gall bladder out.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Anything else I should know?

    Hopefully Dr. McCollister will answer.  My sense is that there is no
real downside other than the minimal surgical and anesthesia
risks--certainly when compared to the downside of retaining a
chronically diseased gallbladder.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Howard McCollister - 13 Jul 2005 23:53 GMT
>> Aside, of course, from the inescapable risks of anesthesia, are there any
>> downsides to having the gall bladder out.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> when compared to the downside of retaining a chronically diseased
> gallbladder.

Thanks..I agree. No real downside. And the risks of the operation and
anesthesia are less than the risks of NOT having it removed.

HMc
outrider - 14 Jul 2005 00:16 GMT
> Aside, of course, from the inescapable risks of anesthesia, are there any
> downsides to having the gall bladder out.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Anything else I should know?

Yes. You should know this may be another adverse effect of the statin
you take to prevent disease. Statins have potential to cause gall
bladder disease, helicobactor pylori ulcer, acid reflux, pancreatitis
and more (if we restrict our list to gastrointestinal). Our previous
list included testosterone depletion and ED.

I think the risk/benefit scale for your PREVENTIVE use of simvastatin
may need re-evaluating.

Dr. McCollister?

Zee
Howard McCollister - 14 Jul 2005 00:31 GMT
>> Aside, of course, from the inescapable risks of anesthesia, are there any
>> downsides to having the gall bladder out.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Dr. McCollister?

I must have missed the part where the OP said he was taking simvastatin?

HMc
outrider - 14 Jul 2005 00:37 GMT
> >> Aside, of course, from the inescapable risks of anesthesia, are there any
> >> downsides to having the gall bladder out.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> HMc

It's in another thread. This is the problem with statin injury: the
adverse effects are considered as individual conditons, rather than as
part of a syndrome.

Zee
Howard McCollister - 14 Jul 2005 01:26 GMT
>> I must have missed the part where the OP said he was taking simvastatin?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> adverse effects are considered as individual conditons, rather than as
> part of a syndrome.

I have no opinion on the use of statins. I don't take them, I don't
prescribe them. Such non-surgical treatment is well outside the paradigm by
which I treat disease and I know about as much about that class of drugs as
a typical Internist or Family Practicioner knows about gallbladder surgery
(very, very little).

I do know that the "gallbladder disease" that statins might cause is
gallstones - statins do not cause primary gallbladder disease. How the OP
got his gallstones is irrelevant. Now he's got them, they're symptomatic,
and his gallbladder needs to be removed. Stopping simvastatin will have no
bearing on what happens to his gallbladder from now on - the damage is done.

Note that this does not imply that I think that his gallstones were caused
by statins. In the sum total of gallbladder disease around the world, the
contribution of that class of drugs to that surgical problem is minor.

HMc
outrider - 14 Jul 2005 01:49 GMT
> >> I must have missed the part where the OP said he was taking simvastatin?
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I do know that the "gallbladder disease" that statins might cause is
> gallstones - statins do not cause primary gallbladder disease.

If gallstones are not gallblader disease then I don't know what is. It
seems to me to be splitting hairs not to call them part and parcel of
gall bladder disease. Especially since the organ you are going to
remove to cure the patient of gall stones is the gall bladder. But
fine....

How the OP
> got his gallstones is irrelevant. Now he's got them, they're symptomatic,
> and his gallbladder needs to be removed. Stopping simvastatin will have no
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> by statins. In the sum total of gallbladder disease around the world, the
> contribution of that class of drugs to that surgical problem is minor.

Yes. And...as far as you know re physician voluntary reporting of
adverse events which is estimated to be, for all adverse event
reporting, 1-10 per cent--conservative estimate.

Zee

> HMc
Howard McCollister - 14 Jul 2005 03:17 GMT
> If gallstones are not gallblader disease then I don't know what is. It
> seems to me to be splitting hairs not to call them part and parcel of
> gall bladder disease. Especially since the organ you are going to
> remove to cure the patient of gall stones is the gall bladder. But
> fine....

Many, many people have gallstones and have no symptoms, ie..the gallstones
cause no "disease". Furthermore, gallstones are not necessary for
gallbladder disease. Acalculous cholecyctitis and biliary dyskinesia are
also both aspects of gallbladder disease. The point of cholecystectomy is
not to "cure" the patient of gallstones, but to "cure" the patient of
gallbladder disease. The two are not the same.

> Yes. And...as far as you know re physician voluntary reporting of
> adverse events which is estimated to be, for all adverse event
> reporting, 1-10 per cent--conservative estimate.

Since when does gallstone formation represent a reportable disease?
Gallbladder disease has been one of the most common of human afflictions
since long before the discovery of statins. Your suggestion that gallstones
are an "adverse event" subject to some kind of reporting is kind of silly.
Gallstone formation in association with statins has been studied and is
acknowledged by all of the companies that manufacture them. Fortunately,
there is a relatively safe and permanent cure for that particular side
effect if it should indeed occur.

There may be reasons why statins are bad, I don't know. But gallbladder
disease has to be pretty far down the list.

HMc
outrider - 14 Jul 2005 05:08 GMT
Not if you are one of the people who has gall bladder "disease" (my
words) concurrently with pancreatitis, acid reflux, hiatal hernia,
helicobactor pylori ulcer and the panoply of statin syndrome symptoms,
which recede in most when they stop statins, but lare documented ot
linger in some four and six years after stopping.

Dr. Beatrice Golomb
P.I. UCSD Statin Study
statinstudy@ucsd.edu
http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/index.htm

Dr. Paul S. Phillips
Head, Inteventional Cardiology
Scripps Mercy Hospital
San Diego
http://impostertrial.com/physician/htm
(Is Myopathy Part of Statin Therapy?)

Drs. Tarnopolsky and Baker
McMaster University
Hamilton Ontario
The Neuromyotoxicity of Statins
1: Muscle Nerve. 2005 May;31(5):572-80.
   Molecular clues into the pathogenesis of statin-mediated muscle
toxicity.

   Baker SK.

   Division of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, Department of
Medicine, McMaster University, McMaster University Medical Center, Room
4U4, Hamilton, Ontario, L8N 3Z5, Canada. bakersjj@hotmail.com

   The pathophysiology of statin-mediated muscle dysfunction is poorly
defined. Reductions in skeletal muscle membrane cholesterol were
initially thought to account for the range of myopathic reactions,
e.g., myalgia, elevated serum creatine kinase, or rhabdomyolysis. This
assumption however, does not consider a potential role of the
isoprenoids in the pathophysiology of statin myopathy. The observation
that derangements in mevalonate kinase (MK), but not more distal
enzymes of cholesterologenesis, are associated with a skeletal myopathy
suggests a critical role for the isoprenoids in the maintenance of
muscle. Statins also deplete the isoprenoid pool by inhibiting the
enzyme, beta-hydroxy-beta-methylglutaryl coenzyme A reductase, which is
upstream of MK. Identifying candidate proteins that are both dependent
on isoprenoid-mediated modification and associated with muscle disease,
when genetically mutated, offers further insight into potential
mechanisms of statin myopathy. For example, lamin A/C, selenoprotein N,
alpha- and beta-dystroglycan, and cytoskeletal G-proteins all require
isoprenylation for optimal function. Understanding the pleiotropic
effects of protein prenylation, and the potential consequences of a
generalized insufficiency of this form of protein modification, may
help clarify the molecular pathogenesis of statin myopathy.

   Publication Types:

       * Review

   PMID: 15712281 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
outrider - 14 Jul 2005 05:20 GMT
But most of all the point I am trying to make to you is; it couldn't
hurt, could it, for you to ask your potential gall bladder surgery
patient if they are taking a statin, and make a note of that in that
chart?

At the very least...

So that maybe someday someone's going to put 2 and 2 together here.

Because yes, you are on the scene for the curative (?) surgery.
Primarily. But not only. You are a physician, and can comment on how
many patients you are seeing who are on statins. Unless of course, you
don't think that's a bad thing.

Zee

> > If gallstones are not gallblader disease then I don't know what is. It
> > seems to me to be splitting hairs not to call them part and parcel of
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> HMc
Howard McCollister - 14 Jul 2005 13:40 GMT
> But most of all the point I am trying to make to you is; it couldn't
> hurt, could it, for you to ask your potential gall bladder surgery
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> many patients you are seeing who are on statins. Unless of course, you
> don't think that's a bad thing.

That data is already there, in the chart, just waiting for somebody to do a
retrospective study. I routinely note a patient's current medications in
every consult I do. But, that study has already been done, and the
correlation has already been made. Statins can contribute to gallstone
formation - we know this. It's just that current thinking is that the upside
of statins outweighs the downside of gallstone formation.

HMc
outrider - 06 Aug 2005 19:54 GMT
http://www.joplink.net/prev/20 0507/11.html

Full text available free, a letter to the editor

JOP. J Pancreas (Online) 2005; 6(4):380.

Drug Induced Pancreatitis Might Be a Class Effect of Statin Drugs

Sonal Singh

"Clinicians need to be aware that drug induced pancreatitis might be a
class
effect of statin drugs and the newest statin, rosuvastatin is as likely
to
be associated with pancreatitis as the other statins."

Evidence and Citations

Keywords Anticholesteremic Agents; Pancreatitis; Poisoning; Salicylates

References

 1.. Antonopoulos S, Mikros S, Kokkoris S, Protopsaltis J, Filioti K,
Karamanolis D, Giannoulis G. A case of acute pancreatitis possibly
associated with combined salicylate and simvastatin treatment. JOP. J
Pancreas (Online) 2005; 6:264-8.

 2.. Singh S, Nautiyal A, Dolan JG. Recurrent acute pancreatitis
possibly
induced by atorvastatin and rosuvastatin. Is statin induced
pancreatitis a
class effect? JOP. J Pancreas (Online) 2004; 5:502-4.

 3.. AstraZeneca. Rosuvastatin product information. AstraZeneca
Pharmaceuticals LP 08/2003.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> > But most of all the point I am trying to make to you is; it couldn't
> > hurt, could it, for you to ask your potential gall bladder surgery
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> HMc
Carey Gregory - 07 Aug 2005 08:13 GMT
>Drug Induced Pancreatitis Might Be a Class Effect of Statin Drugs

Zee, you've almost convinced me to killfile anything with "statin" in the
subject line.   What is it with you and statins, anyway?    Do you spend
your entire day searching for every possible negative mention of this
subject?   You seem... obsessed.
outrider - 07 Aug 2005 09:16 GMT
> >Drug Induced Pancreatitis Might Be a Class Effect of Statin Drugs
>
> Zee, you've almost convinced me to killfile anything with "statin" in the
> subject line.   What is it with you and statins, anyway?    Do you spend
> your entire day searching for every possible negative mention of this
> subject?   You seem... obsessed.

This is the latest study on a statins' adverse effect McCollister and I
have talked about for two or three threads over the past year. You'll
notice I dropped the study onto his last post.

Hope you have a quiet night.

Zee
Carey Gregory - 08 Aug 2005 07:34 GMT
>This is the latest study on a statins' adverse effect McCollister and I
>have talked about for two or three threads over the past year. You'll
>notice I dropped the study onto his last post.

Two or three threads?   Google yourself on this subject.
outrider - 08 Aug 2005 16:36 GMT
> >This is the latest study on a statins' adverse effect McCollister and I
> >have talked about for two or three threads over the past year. You'll
> >notice I dropped the study onto his last post.
>
> Two or three threads?   Google yourself on this subject.

Two or three threads with McCollister on the topic of statin induced
gall bladder disease and pancreatitis.

You'd be happier if you kill filed me. Do it.
(PeteCresswell) - 14 Jul 2005 03:32 GMT
Per outrider:
>I think the risk/benefit scale for your PREVENTIVE use of simvastatin
>may need re-evaluating.

I'm not in love with the idea of taking any longterm medication.   But until
somebody shows me another way to get my total cholesterol down to 150 from 258
and raise my HDL from 41 to 50, I'd have to look at President Clinton's
experience and stay on the stuff.
Signature

PeteCresswell

Jeff - 16 Jul 2005 01:37 GMT
> Per outrider:
>>I think the risk/benefit scale for your PREVENTIVE use of simvastatin
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and raise my HDL from 41 to 50, I'd have to look at President Clinton's
> experience and stay on the stuff.

Diet and excercise can help. You should talk with your doctor about this.

Jeff
(PeteCresswell) - 14 Jul 2005 03:36 GMT
Per outrider:
>your PREVENTIVE use of simvastatin

Maybe this is too fine a semantic point, but imaging of my ticker reveals
significant occlusion of various coronary ateries.   "Not *too* bad for somebody
your age..." was in the evaluator's comments...but considering that my brother
didn't make it to 45...
Signature

PeteCresswell

outrider - 14 Jul 2005 00:45 GMT
Statin injury can kill. With what you have described here and on other
threads it has gone beyond a bit of inconvenience. You may push
yourself into rhabdomyolysis. You should also know that statins can
cause a type of cardiomyopathy. All statins deplete coenxyme q10. That
is fact. What we don't know is if taking coq10 orally will replenish
the depletion. And that is why it's so important to recognize what's
happening to you before it's irretrevable.

You have an 86 page pdf  given to you to help you and your physician
make informed decisions.

I strongly urge you to read the histopathology section here as well:

http://www.impostertrial.com/physicians.htm
(Is Myopathy Part of Statin Therapy?)
outrider - 14 Jul 2005 00:51 GMT
http://www.impostertrial.com/physician.htm

How to Treat Patients with Hypercholesterolemia Who Can't Take Statin
Therapy

We see many patients who have already suffered statin induced
rhabdomyolysis or who have suspected statin associated myopathy with
normal CK.  Many of these patients have biopsy proven myopathy.  Some
have less certain diagnoses because of typical symptoms or marked
improvement during a two week trial off of statins.  For each of theses
patients, the decision about how best to treat their hyperlipidemia is
based on the balance between how important it is to lower their plasma
lipids and how certain the diagnosis of statin associated myopathy is.
At one extreme are patients whose statin therapy was based on elevated
lipid levels in a low risk individual (primary prevention) and who may
have a solid diagnosis of statin induced myopathy by biopsy.  These
patients are told to remain off of statins and depending on the
severity of their lipid disorder we may recommend some combination of
the therapies below.  At the other extreme are high risk individuals,
e.g. post myocardial infraction with diabetes, in whom the suspicion of
statin associated myopathy is less certain.  Barring pathological
evidence of myopathy or severe weakness we usually continue these
patients on a reduced dose of statin therapy in combination with some
of the therapies described below.

No matter where the patient falls on the spectrum of atherosclerotic
risk vs. certainty of myopathic diagnosis, we explain the uncertainties
and give them this hand out so that they can participate in the
treatment plan (patient handout).

The therapeutic options which we offer to patients with hyperlipidemia
who can not take statins include:

   1. Low Fat Diet

   The best low fat diets are also high in viscous fiber and in plant
sterols.  The best tested of these diets, known as the Portfolio Diet
uses additional dietary options to increase the effectiveness of a diet
already consisting of reduced saturated fats and dietary cholesterol.
This diet conforms to the National Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP)
Adult Treatment Panel III recommendations. In clinical trials, the
Portfolio Diet reduced LDL Cholesterol levels up to 29% comparable to
some statin therapies. The main components of the Portfolio Diet are
summarized here:

       *

         this is a vegetarian diet
       *

         margarine enriched in plant sterol esters is used daily
       *

         10 grams of viscous fiber daily per 1000 calories of diet
consumed:  oats, barley and psyllium (Metamucil)
       *

         okra and eggplant are included as vegetable sources of
viscous fiber, with 100 and 200 grams of these vegetables on alternate
days
       *

         21.4 grams of soy protein daily per 1000 calories consumed:
soy milk, soy meat alternatives
       *

         14 grams of whole almonds daily per 1000 calories consumed

   A typical day's diet is formatted in the "Further Reading"
section below.

   2. Mediterranean Diet
   3. Exercise
   4. Resins and Cholesterol Absorbing Drugs:

       Brand Name     Generic Name
       WelChol     colesevelam
       Questran     cholestyramine
       Colestid     colestipol

   5. Non-statin Cholesterol Lowering Drugs

       Brand Name     Generic Name
       (n/a)     niacin*
       Lopid     gemfibrozil
       Tricor     fenofibrate
       Zetia     ezetimibe

       * niacin is available in multiple slow release formulations

   We have discovered that over half of patients who are intolerant of
statins have muscle side effects on these other cholesterol lowering
drugs as well.  Despite the fact that some of these drugs are marketed
as a safe alternative for patients where statin muscle toxicity is a
concern, they have not been tested in this patient group.  We have now
published our experience with a high incidence of ezetimibe causing
muscle symptoms in patients with previously diagnosed statin muscle
toxicity and a report of ezetimibe monotherapy causing myopathy is in
review.  Our preference as of 2005 is to proceed with resin therapy as
the first alternative lipid-lowering option in any patient who is
statin intolerant.

   6. Plant Stanols and Sterols 2 grams a day at lunch are advised
(see 1. above)

   7.  Policosinol (an aliphatic alcohol made from sugar cane wax with
HMG-CoA reductase properties and no described myopathy).  This
neutraceutical is not regulated by the FDA and has been tested and used
in Cuba.  Available data are tabulated and referenced on the
policosanol page.  There is also a patient information sheet available
on the join a study page.  We have completed a preliminary study of 25
patients with prior statin intolerance using a U.S. source of
policosanol (Greco T, 2003 pending publication).  While there was no
myopathy in this indicator patient group, the U.S. formulation did not
lower cholesterol levels as the Cuban formulations have.  Thus we
advise caution before recommending this unregulated neutraceutical.

   8.  Red yeast rice   This product is included in a number of
neutraceuticals which have been banned by the FDA.  They contain active
statin and have been associated with both myopathy and rhabdomyolysis.
These products are dangerous in patients with prior reactions to
statins.

----------snip----------
(PeteCresswell) - 14 Jul 2005 03:44 GMT
Per outrider:
>Statin injury can kill. With what you have described here and on other
>threads it has gone beyond a bit of inconvenience.

It sounds like somebody thinks I'm "statin-intolerant".  Have I got that part
right?

If so, based on what?   Gallstones?    Low testosterone?  

It's anecdotal, but I think I know quite a few people who have had gallstones
but never been on a statin - not to mention occurrances of the condition
throughout history.

As far as low testosterone goes, unfortunately I do not have a base line from
youth or before beginning Zocor.   But all my life I have had abnormally small
testicles.    Never seemed to slow me down any... but now with advancing age,
couldn't one just pass it off on general loss of function?  I'd suspect that no
organ, gland, muscle, or whatever in my bod is performing with anything like the
efficiency it did in youth - or even middle age - and is probably deteriorating
steadily and normally.

i.e. maybe one needs a certain minimum hormone level and symptoms like fatigue
et. al. don't appear until one's level falls below that minimum - and if the
glands are marginal to begin with, one might fall below that minimum as a normal
part of the aging process.

If it sounds like I'm fighting this, you're right.   You're talking  beeeeeg
ideas here....flying in the face of my little frog-in-the-well view of the
scientific/medical establishment.... so I'd say it's deserving of some critical
thought on my part before accepting anything.
Signature

PeteCresswell

outrider - 14 Jul 2005 02:05 GMT
> Per outrider:
> >Statin injury can kill. With what you have described here and on other
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> --
> PeteCresswell

I suggest posting different posts for different symptoms is getting you
nowhere. You may indeed have an genetic intolerance to them. You may
just be one of the ones whose coeznmye q10 has bottomed out, taking
your testosterone with it. (It's connected).

You'd do better to spend an hour on that PDF I gave you. It might save
your life. Almost all references there are from Medline. Studies
showing statins do what you have complained about, in a cluster side
effect pattern.

It is indeed deserving of some thought on your part.

Zee

Zee
bae@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu - 14 Jul 2005 14:26 GMT
>Per outrider:
>>Statin injury can kill. With what you have described here and on other
>>threads it has gone beyond a bit of inconvenience.
>
>It sounds like somebody thinks I'm "statin-intolerant".  Have I got that part
>right?

sci.med seems to attract one trick ponies.  Over the years, according
to various individual posters, we've been told that the sole cause of
every ill of mankind is (1) excess iron intake (2) insufficient
magnesium (3) celiac disease (4) too much DHEA (5) obstetricians (6)
vaccines (7) aspartame (8) milk (9) soybeans (10) bad vibrations from
other people who take antidepressants (11) cell phone towers (12)
fluoride (13) canola oil and any number of other monomaniac theories
that I can't recall on the spot.

Right now we have someone who is so convinced that every ill is due to
statin consumption that she's claimed that the problems of a Christian
Scientist who has long refused all drugs and other medical care for
religious reasons must be due to side effects of statins.

Like most drugs, and indeed most things in life, statins have risks as
well as benefits, and both risks and benefits will depend on the
individual.  Of course, it being an imperfect world, the exact values
of the risks and benefits of statins are not available, so as with most
things in life, decisions have to be made as well as possible under
uncertainty.  It's up to you, with the assistance of your doctor, to
determine whether taking statins is better for you overall than not
taking them.  It sounds like you've made a reasonable decision, and you
should be careful about taking advice of people whose qualifications
you have no way of evaluating, who have an agenda, and who present
information in a biased and skewed manner.
Howard McCollister - 14 Jul 2005 14:47 GMT
>>Per outrider:
>>>Statin injury can kill. With what you have described here and on other
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> fluoride (13) canola oil and any number of other monomaniac theories
> that I can't recall on the spot.

Circumcision.....

HMc
REP - 14 Jul 2005 14:58 GMT
> >>Per outrider:
> >>>Statin injury can kill. With what you have described here and on other
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Circumcision.....

Not following a 2 p0und diet...

Signature

"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather

outrider - 15 Jul 2005 04:14 GMT
> >>Per outrider:
> >>>Statin injury can kill. With what you have described here and on other
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> HMc

Oh cut it out.

Zee
outrider - 14 Jul 2005 18:05 GMT
All information I have given the poster about the documented adverse
effects of the class of drugs he is taking is from MEDLINE. If you
disagree with the findings of these studies, I suggest you write your
concerns to the FDA and Merck (the manufacturer of Simvastatin). If
ignored the symptoms the poster is complaining about can lead to
rhabdomyolysis. That too is documented.

What you are doing is not helpful.

Zee

> >Per outrider:
> >>Statin injury can kill. With what you have described here and on other
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> you have no way of evaluating, who have an agenda, and who present
> information in a biased and skewed manner.
Happy Dog - 14 Jul 2005 18:37 GMT
<bae@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu> wrote in
> sci.med seems to attract one trick ponies.  Over the years, according
> to various individual posters, we've been told that the sole cause of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> fluoride (13) canola oil and any number of other monomaniac theories
> that I can't recall on the spot.

Let's not forget the gubmint.

> Like most drugs, and indeed most things in life, statins have risks as
> well as benefits, and both risks and benefits will depend on the
> individual.  Of course, it being an imperfect world, the exact values
> of the risks and benefits of statins are not available, so as with most
> things in life, decisions have to be made as well as possible under
> uncertainty.

However, in this case, all responsibility rests with someone you can whine
to and who will *pay* for every service and take responsibility for every
mistake.  When you've reached that point, it becomes impossible to see the
world as a place where personal responsibility has much use.  In fact, it's
to be frowned upon in the same way that many unions frown upon anyone who
sets standards or goals above the minimum necessary.  All problems have one
cause.  All problems have one solution.  And thinking doesn't much enter
into it.

moo
Howard Homler - 14 Jul 2005 07:22 GMT
>Aside, of course, from the inescapable risks of anesthesia, are there any
>downsides to having the gall bladder out.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Anything else I should know?

I had mine out and can't tell the difference except that the pain is
gone!  :-)  H2
(PeteCresswell) - 07 Aug 2005 01:13 GMT
Per Howard Homler:
>I had mine out and can't tell the difference except that the pain is
>gone!

Do you recall how long it was before you felt comfortable driving a car
(perception/coordination-wise) and how long before you resumed work?

I had mine done on 8/2 and have been telling my clients/collegues that I'd be
back this Monday.   At the moment this seems tb a bit over-optimistic...
Signature

PeteCresswell

Jeff - 16 Jul 2005 01:34 GMT
> Aside, of course, from the inescapable risks of anesthesia, are there any
> downsides to having the gall bladder out.

Death, injury to the liver  and digestive track, the recover from the
surgery, the cost.

> My last attack put me down for almost two weeks.   Aside from hurting a
> lot, I
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> as a
> possible longterm benefit.

I think this is a totally seperate issue. If you like having a pulse, you
will get your gluttony under control now. If you are overweight, the more
weight you lose, the better. Also, increasing the amount of excercise, under
the care of your doctor, will help your recovery.

Jeff

> Anything else I should know?
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.