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Medical Forum / General / General / July 2005

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Most health news stories are just noise.

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Mr-Natural-Health - 11 Jul 2005 13:09 GMT
Most health news stories are just noise.
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/home/essentials.html

Too many researchers are repeating the work of others, conducting
clinical trials that are redundant and don't add to the body of
scientific knowledge, according to a new study.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/arn/ct/2005/00000002/00000003/art00004

Editorial:
http://www.arnoldpublishers.com/journals/pages/clin_trials/CN%202(3)%20editorial.pdf

Full Text online:
http://www.arnoldpublishers.com/journals/pages/clin_trials/CN%202(3)%20article.pdf

"In light of the obligation to justify a claim of clinical equipoise
between treatment options before proceeding with a trial, one of the
first questions to be asked is whether trialists systematically
reviewed the prior literature. ... researchers were not conducting
their own independent reviews of the literature, but were instead
depending on previous incomplete searches by others."

This review was rather unique in that it was studying whether each of
trials reviewed was actually necessary. Redundant research that does
not add to the body of scientific knowledge is recognized to both exist
and to be an ethical problem in this recent study.

06-16-05 MediResource
http://mediresource.sympatico.ca/health_news_detail.asp?channel_id=0&menu_item_i
d=&news_id=7072

DZ - 11 Jul 2005 18:41 GMT
> Most health news stories are just noise.
> http://naturalhealthperspective.com/home/essentials.html
>
> Too many researchers are repeating the work of others, conducting
> clinical trials that are redundant and don't add to the body of
> scientific knowledge, according to a new study.

Perhaps ironically this particular study too is rediscovering the
wheel. Science is a cumulative affair. Best of it comes from "high
risk, high impact" paradigm where researchers are free to choose
directions and confirm old results when they choose to do so. That
means lots of inconsequential publications. USA, the country that
publishes most, including most of the junk too, produces most of top
cited papers as well (King DA 2004 The scientific impact of nations.
Nature 430:311316). That's fine with me. Keep them coming.

DZ
TC - 11 Jul 2005 18:53 GMT
> Most health news stories are just noise.
> http://naturalhealthperspective.com/home/essentials.html
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> 06-16-05 MediResource
> http://mediresource.sympatico.ca/health_news_detail.asp?channel_id=0&menu_item_i
d=&news_id=7072

In marketing, noise is the goal. Any noise is good noise. Any press is
good press. More than 70% of science has marketing as its end goal.
That is what happens when commercial interests take over science.
Science for the sake of market positioning of the product. Real science
is now a proverbial needle in the haystack of corporate greed.

TC
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 12 Jul 2005 02:05 GMT
> > Most health news stories are just noise.
> > http://naturalhealthperspective.com/home/essentials.html
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> TC

COMMENT:

Anybody who talks about "corporate greed" has never writen a business
plan, has never invented a new product, writen a patent, never marketed
a new product.  And yet you yourself use hundreds of such endproducts
of other people's work each day.  How do you live with the hypocrisy?

>Real science is now a proverbial needle in the haystack of corporate greed.<

How would YOU know?  Have you ever done any real science?  Ever
published a scientific paper?  Ever DONE a literature review for a
grant application, either RO1 or SBIR? Then what makes you think you
know **ANYTHING** about science?  Eh?

FYI, if there is any needle of "real science" in studies paid for by
special interests, then the ONLY way to separate it is with
confirmatory studies. Which are PRECISELY the thing which the article
above complains about as "waste."  The irony of this is lost on you.

SBH
TC - 12 Jul 2005 14:44 GMT
> > > Most health news stories are just noise.
> > > http://naturalhealthperspective.com/home/essentials.html
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> a new product.  And yet you yourself use hundreds of such endproducts
> of other people's work each day.  How do you live with the hypocrisy?

I own a small business and currently have two projects in the works,
both are likely to lead to patentable designs.

> >Real science is now a proverbial needle in the haystack of corporate greed.<
>
> How would YOU know?  Have you ever done any real science?  Ever
> published a scientific paper?  Ever DONE a literature review for a
> grant application, either RO1 or SBIR? Then what makes you think you
> know **ANYTHING** about science?  Eh?

Completely irrelevant. One does not have to build a car by hand to know
that Toyota produces a much better product than Ford ever will. Or that
Chrysler produces a better product now that Daimler owns it.

Gargabe science is garbage science. Even non-scientists like myself can
smell the obvious stink from a mile away.

> FYI, if there is any needle of "real science" in studies paid for by
> special interests, then the ONLY way to separate it is with
> confirmatory studies. Which are PRECISELY the thing which the article
> above complains about as "waste."  The irony of this is lost on you.
>
> SBH

Confirmatory studies? As in a company hires a second "scientist" to
comes to the same garbage conclusion? It's been done and it has to
stop.

TC
Mr-Natural-Health - 12 Jul 2005 16:37 GMT
> Confirmatory studies? As in a company hires a second "scientist" to
> comes to the same garbage conclusion? It's been done and it has to
> stop.

The central theme of my web site is:
Good personal health information does not go on forever;
Nor, does it change with each health news story.
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/home/essentials.html

I now have a second citation to support my health claim that most
health news is just noise.  There is little need to keep up research in
the areas of nutrition and exercise since it is ALL noise.

Nothing new has been researched in years. :(

And, of course, the ethical implications of repeating unnecessary
research totally escapes the physican since the bread and butter of
allopaths has been killing their patients for as long as this quackery
existed. Now a days, health insurance makes this process all the more
efficient. :(
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 13 Jul 2005 02:05 GMT
> > COMMENT:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I own a small business and currently have two projects in the works,
> both are likely to lead to patentable designs.

COMMENT:

What, your "small business" isn't incorporated, even as a subchapter S?
Or do you figure that your own profits don't count as "greed" because
they go to YOU?  Or don't you make a profit?

Do let us know when you get those patents.

> > >Real science is now a proverbial needle in the haystack of corporate greed.<
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> that Toyota produces a much better product than Ford ever will. Or that
> Chrysler produces a better product now that Daimler owns it.

COMMENT:

Ahem. If it was obvious that Toyotas are always better than Fords,
nobody but Ford employees would own Fords, and the company would go
belly-up, instead of selling nearly 3 times as many cars and trucks as
Toyota does here. So it's not so obvious, is it?

> Gargabe science is garbage science. Even non-scientists like myself can
> smell the obvious stink from a mile away.

COMMENT:

No, you only think you can. And that's the dangerous thing about
relying on buzz. I haven't seen anything from your posts that indicates
you can smell "garbage science." So far as I can see, that's just your
term for science whose conclusions you don't want to believe.

> > FYI, if there is any needle of "real science" in studies paid for by
> > special interests, then the ONLY way to separate it is with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Confirmatory studies? As in a company hires a second "scientist" to
> comes to the same garbage conclusion?

COMMENT:

Some examples would be helpful if you think that happens often and
makes any difference. No, I mean "As in the study is repeated by some
government or other group of scientists with no particular reason to
care which way the results come out." And that happens not once, but
again and sometimes again and again.

Who do you think discovered that Vioxx caused heart attacks?  The
government?  No. Did anybody even *suspect* it caused heart attacks
when it was launched as a product?  No. YOu can smell garbage science a
mile away, can you? So where are all YOUR postings warning us about
Vioxx, a few years ago?  Eh?

Here's what I was saying about Celebrex in April 1999:

Quote from Steve Harris:

 Celebrex produced fewer stomach ulcers than diclofenac generic 75
bid and Relafen 750 bid, but the numbers were barely significant (7% vs

9% or something).  And these were asymptomatic ulcers seen on EGD:
nobody knows if they translate directly to serious ulcers causing large

bleeds (hospitalization needed) or death.  There were large differences

between Celebrex and the old propionic acid derviatives Naprosyn/Aleve
and Ibuprofen/Motrin, now OTC.  But that just means that the safer
NSAIDS are available only by prescription, not that Celebrex has yet
proven safe than the best of these.  FDA, take note.  We thought the
purpose of the prescription status was to keep access to the least safe

drugs more controlled?  Now we see that clearly corrupted by
profit-seeking.  We either need to get rid of the Rx status for drugs
(other than antibiotics or drugs that are addictive), or else get rid
of the laws which effectively allow a higher price to be charged for a
drug which is available only by Rx, rather than OTC (there is no
reason, for example, why an insurance company should not be able to
anounce that it will pay for drugs gotten by Rx, but which can be
bought OTC also).  Which status (OTC vs generic, by Rx vs. WITH Rx
ONLY, vs OTC), of course, need have nothing to do with patent vs.
generic status, which would still allow discovering companies to make
money to pay back their research costs and investors.

=============================================

There's an example of MY nose for funny science, and that was a years
before the selective NSAID fiasco was even a cloud on the horizon, let
alone one the size of a hand.

Here's what I said in July 1999 on the same subject. Note that this is
LONG before OTC Prilosec and LONG before the current recommendations to
take a proton pump inhibitor with your NSAID.

Harris:  (July 1999)

 Yep, the stuff is not totally benign in that way.  In the Celebrex
testing the company did for the FDA they found about 30% asymptomatic
GI ulcers on endoscopy for the standard OTC NSAID controls, and
something like 7% for Celebrex.  But the kicker is that they only found

something like 9% for Voltarin/diclofenac (semi-selective) and they
didn't test Relafen/nabumetone, which is my own favorite and probably
at least as good (and not likely as hepatotoxic).  And they surely
didn't compare Celebrex to [Relafen-or-Voltarin plus
Previcid-or-Prilosec.]  Which you can just about do at the prices they
charge for Celebrex.   You can certainly add OTC Zantac to nabumetone
or etodolac for the price they charge for the COX-2 inhibitors.  So why

no comparison studies?

  Blast the FDA, anyway.  The schmucks.  We have data that proton pump

inhibitors (PPI) are better at protecting stomachs than misoprostol (in

both efficacy and side effect), but here we have a combination
"Arthrotec" and no combination NSAID/PPI.  We have no OTC PPI, and no
good reason for *that* fact (the esophageal/gastric cancer risk has
turned out to be a confounder).  Nor do we have Relafen OTC.  So people

die of GI bleeds from OTC Aleve or Motrin at the rate of thousands a
year while your wise and watchful FDA dithers about a few cases of some

godawful rare and not very dangerous thing like-- pseudoporphria, or
something.  ARGGHH.

=======================================

COMMENT:

Now, you post YOUR old sniffings.
 
SBH
DZ - 22 Jul 2005 01:27 GMT
>> Gargabe science is garbage science. Even non-scientists like myself can
>> smell the obvious stink from a mile away.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> you can smell "garbage science." So far as I can see, that's just your
> term for science whose conclusions you don't want to believe.

It is not always obvious to see what's "junk" or even what is
"redundant", even for a scientist.

I have some genetics papers written almost simultaneously with other
people looking at a similar problem. The oldest such was published 10
years ago and had I waited longer, maybe it wouldn't make it to a
publication. This week, my friend who is doing bibliography research
looked at the citation rates for papers in that journal
(http://tinyurl.com/86437).

To my big surprise the paper came out as 9th most cited, among all
papers in the journal. It was ranked second by the citation rate per
year, and ranked first by the number of citations counting from the
year of its publication.
Mr-Natural-Health - 22 Jul 2005 06:26 GMT
> It is not always obvious to see what's "junk" or even what is
> "redundant", even for a scientist.

Could be why so much redundant research is being published?

Just my opinion, but I am right as usual. :)
Mr-Natural-Health - 22 Jul 2005 06:26 GMT
> It is not always obvious to see what's "junk" or even what is
> "redundant", even for a scientist.

Could be why so much redundant research is being published?

Just my opinion, but I am right as usual. :)
DZ - 22 Jul 2005 06:51 GMT
>> It is not always obvious to see what's "junk" or even what is
>> "redundant", even for a scientist.
>
> Could be why so much redundant research is being published?
> Just my opinion, but I am right as usual. :)

Yes, I agree - S<13N<3 !1! is kinda tough :-)
David Wright - 13 Jul 2005 04:40 GMT
>> How would YOU know?  Have you ever done any real science?  Ever
>> published a scientific paper?  Ever DONE a literature review for a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>that Toyota produces a much better product than Ford ever will. Or that
>Chrysler produces a better product now that Daimler owns it.

Gee, Mr. Science, you obviously haven't been paying attention to
what's happened to Mercedes reliability over the last few years.
And while Chrysler has been improving, so are American cars overall.

By the way, "ever" is a long time.  And not all Toyotas are super-
reliable.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "I believe The Battle of the Network Stars should be fought with guns."
                                       -- Steve Martin
Mr-Natural-Health - 13 Jul 2005 16:18 GMT
> Gee, Mr. Science, you obviously haven't been paying attention to
> what's happened to Mercedes reliability over the last few years.
> And while Chrysler has been improving, so are American cars overall.

Gee, maybe science should start paying attention to Mercedes
reliability over the last few years?  NASA put a man on the moon
without any published research. Maybe science should take a look at
NASA?
Twittering One - 13 Jul 2005 23:01 GMT
Mr-Natural-Health - 12 Jul 2005 17:05 GMT
> FYI, if there is any needle of "real science" in studies paid for by
> special interests, then the ONLY way to separate it is with
> confirmatory studies. Which are PRECISELY the thing which the article
> above complains about as "waste."  The irony of this is lost on you.

I distinctly recall you recently whining about oral B-12 being as
effective as injection being past off as new research. Did you not
consider that news story as ancient history?  Did you welcome the
publication of that confirmatory study?
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 13 Jul 2005 01:09 GMT
> > FYI, if there is any needle of "real science" in studies paid for by
> > special interests, then the ONLY way to separate it is with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> consider that news story as ancient history?  Did you welcome the
> publication of that confirmatory study?

COMMENT:

A fair objection, but it's also fair to point out that that was a very
unusual case. For B12 used in mega-mega doses (2000 times DRI, perhaps
the highest megadose ratio used for any vitamin, with the possible
exception of C), the mass action diffusion effects are odd, and are
contrary to about 40 years of medical teaching (that B12 is not
absorbed orally in pernicious anemia), so doctors have generally
refused to believe them. So people have kept doing confirmatory
studies-- a case of extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary
amounts of evidence.  That's the way science is supposed to work,
actually.  I only complained because I personally was convinced a long
time ago, after about the third study.

How many studies are enough to convince people who don't want to be
convinced, is a good question. There are nuts who still think calcium
isn't well-absorbed from cow milk, when of course it is. What do YOU
suggest we do with them? And there are another set of nuts on the other
side who reasonably accept that it's absorbed well, and think that's a
big deal for teenagers when it comes to osteoporosis prevention in
later life--- when many studies show it's not. What do we do with THEM?

SBH
George Cherry - 14 Jul 2005 17:42 GMT
>> > Most health news stories are just noise.
>> > http://naturalhealthperspective.com/home/essentials.html
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> grant application, either RO1 or SBIR? Then what makes you think you
> know **ANYTHING** about science?  Eh?

TC's a computer programmer isn't he?
He's studied Atkins' "research" hasn't he?
He has his own anecdotal diet experience hasn't he?
He spells "Real Science" right doesn't he?

> FYI, if there is any needle of "real science" in studies paid for by
> special interests, then the ONLY way to separate it is with
> confirmatory studies. Which are PRECISELY the thing which the article
> above complains about as "waste."  The irony of this is lost on you.
>
> SBH

Score:  SBH: 100;  TC: 0

GWC
Dan - 13 Jul 2005 05:52 GMT
I understand your theory but you don't show evidence to back up your
claim.  Of course there are redundant studies but a high percentage of
studies are pushing science further.  Did I miss any evidence in your
claim?  Because I don't see you refering to any studies proving your
point.  Please explain further so I can get a better picture and
understand your point better.

Dan Gilliland
http://debunkbigpharma.blognation.us/blog
Mr-Natural-Health - 13 Jul 2005 07:16 GMT
> I understand your theory but you don't show evidence to back up your
> claim.  Of course there are redundant studies but a high percentage of
> studies are pushing science further.  Did I miss any evidence in your
> claim?  Because I don't see you refering to any studies proving your
> point.  Please explain further so I can get a better picture and
> understand your point better.

Evidence?

Follow my health blog:
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/

Then follow my Yahoo Newsletter:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Health-with-Attitude/

That will take you to May 2002.  99% of the news stories/research
repeat the same old research over and over again.
 
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