Medical Forum / General / General / July 2005
Does high chol. promote heart disease?
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Jason - 06 Jul 2005 17:33 GMT Serum lipids include cholesterol, triglycerides and ...chylomicrons. These substances play important roles in fat metabolism and also contribute to hardening of the arteries (arteriosclerosis), which is the major cause of coronary heart disease, strokes and circulatory insufficiciency of the legs. ...As is well known, high serum cholesterol levels promote heart disease...
The above statement was written by Mackenzie Walser, MD (Professor, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine).
Do you agree or disagree with Dr. Walser?
Please post your comments
 Signature NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 07 Jul 2005 02:35 GMT Serum lipids include cholesterol, triglycerides and ...chylomicrons. These substances play important roles in fat metabolism and also contribute to hardening of the arteries (arteriosclerosis), which is the major cause of coronary heart disease, strokes and circulatory insufficiciency of the legs. ...As is well known, high serum cholesterol levels promote heart disease...
The above statement was written by Mackenzie Walser, MD (Professor, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine).
Do you agree or disagree with Dr. Walser? Please post your comments
==========================
COMMENT:
There's a disease called familial hypercholesterolemia. It's genetic. It's a primary genetic defect in the LDL receptor and all it does is raise plasma LDL cholesterol to 3 times normal or more. Imagine a 10 year-old needing triple vessel bypass. It happens. It's rather hard to explain if you think LDL cholesterol per se is harmless.
SBH
outrider - 07 Jul 2005 04:33 GMT > Serum lipids include cholesterol, triglycerides and ...chylomicrons. > These [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > SBH Jason I have the so-called familial hypercholesterolemia defect Harris is talking about. Currently, total cholesterol 3 times 'normal'. Almost all of that ldl. I'm not saying Harris is wrong. I'm just saying...
Still here (last I checked.)
Still cute.
Zee
Jason - 07 Jul 2005 16:56 GMT > > Serum lipids include cholesterol, triglycerides and ...chylomicrons. > > These [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Zee Zee, I have it also. I'm also still here. I have decided NOT to take chol. pill to treat the problem due to the dangerous side effects. Since I am a Christian, I don't fear death. Jason
 Signature NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 07 Jul 2005 21:43 GMT >>I have it also. I'm also still here. I have decided NOT to take chol. pill to treat the problem due to the dangerous side effects. Since I am a Christian, I don't fear death. <<
COMMENT:
Fine, but would you also not use a seatbelt (if it weren't illegal)? Smoke?
Familial hypercholesterolemia comes in two varieties-- the one gene "single dose" and the two gene "double dose" which is worse. The double dose gives cholesterols over 600 mg/dL (15.5 in SI units). This usually produces heart attacks before 30.
The single dose variety gives cholesterols around 300 to 400 (roughly 8 to 10 SI). Men have 85% chance of heart attack by age 60, women by age 70.
There is no single "cholesterol pill," but a wide variety of them. We know enough about the fibrates (Tricor/fenobibrate, gemfibrozil/Lopid, etc) and the cholesterol binders (Questran) to know they aren't worth taking. The statins, a third class of drug, work well in people who've had a heart attack or have diabetes, but haven't yet proven themselves in people merely at risk from modestly high cholesterol. However, they haven't been tried to see if they prevent death in people with VERY high cholesterol and not yet any heart attack, so that's a matter of guesswork. My guess is yes, and if it had a cholesterol > 300 I'd certainly be on one. If you try a statin, stick with the old and proven ones for which there are long clinical trial data available (mevastatin simvastatin, pravastatin). Refuse Lipitor and Crestor. Any statin can cause side effects and needs to be stopped instantly at the first sign of muscle pain, mental problem, numbness, or really ANY symptom of ill health.
There's a new non-statin drug which is a cholesterol resorption inhibitor called Zetia (ezetimibe), available both with and without statin. Mechanistically it is expected not to be too dangerous and so far looks clean. However, it's new, and one should be wary of new drugs. It lowers cholesterol well, but there's no data yet to show it prevents MIs, let alone death. It's an option for those who cannot take statins.
Niacin, for which much more experience is in, prevents MIs but studies are not large enough to show it prevents death. It has side effects which are usually more annoying than problematic, but it can cause liver damage if not carefully followed.
The best of all treatments to start with for those at risk for heart disease is high dose fishoil EPA/DPA concentrate (5 to 10 grams of 50% concentrate a day). There is a LONG experience of humans on high fish fat diets, and the stuff is benign. It lowers triglycerides a great deal and LDL modestly (at high dose). But it's protective against heart disease death in ways which have nothing to do with cholesterol levels (we don't know the mechanism). Most people with major cardiac risk factors should be taking an aspirin a day, unless they have a reason not to.
See a cardiologist and then get a second opinion. Get on fish oil. Fish is not enough unless you make sure it's red (sockeye) salmon.
Good luck. And remember finally that you may not be afraid of death, but if you're afraid of pill side effects, you're not certainly not fearless. If you're not afraid of being a cardiac cripple in a wheelchair on chronic oxygen for your congestive heart failure, it's only because you haven't seen it. That may not be a "dangerous side effect" but it's certainly a nasty *effect* of heart disease. The worst thing about heart disease is sometimes you *don't* die. It makes no sense to fear side effects from a pill when you could be looking a chronic disability just as awful, from the disease itself.
You can always stop a pill if you're alert to the problems it can cause. One hears stories of permanent side effects from statin use, but they are hard to evaluate. And even they don't come from people who stopped the drug immediately at the first sign of problem. So take them for what they are worth: stories to pay attention to, but not to bet your life on.
SBH
Robert - 07 Jul 2005 23:12 GMT > >>I have it also. I'm also still here. I have decided NOT to take chol. pill > to treat the problem due to the dangerous side effects. Since I am a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Fine, but would you also not use a seatbelt (if it weren't illegal)? Seat belts have caused deaths especially in children and thus child seats. They can also cause major damage including strangulation in adults if not used properly. They are not 100% safe. Nothing is 100% safe and I am sure those family members of those who died totally regret it.
> Smoke? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > taking. The statins, a third class of drug, work well in people who've > had a heart attack or have diabetes, I have been attacked for saying that if people don't want to take statins then they can wait until they get a heart attack to take them. They interpreted that as a threat that if they did not take statins they would get a heart attack and that I was terrifying people into taking statins.
but haven't yet proven themselves
> in people merely at risk from modestly high cholesterol. However, they > haven't been tried to see if they prevent death in people with VERY > high cholesterol and not yet any heart attack, so that's a matter of > guesswork. I agree with that which is why if somebody has much concern in taking statins or if they get significant symptoms then they should stop and contact their doctor and re-evaluate their need for statins or anything else.
My guess is yes, and if it had a cholesterol > 300 I'd
> certainly be on one. If I had hypertension and other risk factors I would especially take them.
If you try a statin, stick with the old and proven
> ones for which there are long clinical trial data available (mevastatin > simvastatin, pravastatin). Refuse Lipitor and Crestor. Any statin can > cause side effects and needs to be stopped instantly at the first sign > of muscle pain, mental problem, numbness, or really ANY symptom of ill > health. Correct.
REP - 07 Jul 2005 23:28 GMT > "Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > There is no single "cholesterol pill," but a wide variety of them. We > > know enough about the fibrates (Tricor/fenobibrate, gemfibrozil/Lopid, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > interpreted that as a threat that if they did not take statins they would > get a heart attack and that I was terrifying people into taking statins. Sorry to jump in the middle of this thread, but the comment on Lopid being worthless caught my eye as I take Lopid (for very high triglyceride levels associated with non-diabetic kidney disease). Is it just worthless for cholesterol control? My triglyclerides have dropped from over 4,000 mg/dL to 150 mg/dL - not great, but much better.
 Signature "Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner." - Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 08 Jul 2005 01:34 GMT >>Sorry to jump in the middle of this thread, but the comment on Lopid being worthless caught my eye as I take Lopid (for very high triglyceride levels associated with non-diabetic kidney disease). Is it
just worthless for cholesterol control? My triglyclerides have dropped from over 4,000 mg/dL to 150 mg/dL - not great, but much better. <<
COMMENT:
Lopid certainly brings triglycerides down very well. That is the place where it shines best (rather than as a treatment for high cholesterol or LDL per se).
Whether this prevents death from heart disease in the small subset of people who have VERY high triglycerides (like you) is an open question. Nobody has looked. In the largest studies on Lopid, they gave it to a broad range of people and did not succeed in showing decrease in mortality. Perhaps if they'd restricted it to a subset, they might have. We don't know!
YOU do have an unusual problem, for which no endpoint data from fibrate treatment are known. 4000 is a VERY high triglyceride level-- high enough to cause worry of other problems, like pancreatitis. For you, I think a fibrate is reasonable. However, if I were you, I would recommend you do the 10 grams of fishoil a day and see if you can then cut down your fibrate dose.
Here's a very large trial of gemfibrozole in men with coronary disease where they were unable to show a decrease in heart disease death, or death from any cause. They had to fold in total non-fatal events to get anything significant. But since fibrates are carcinogens, a 24% decrease in non-fatal events is not enough. Note, however, that these men did not have really high triglycerides and weren't chosen for that. It's still possible that gemfibrozil would have done better for them, if they had been. These are NOT the same group as you, though. We really have no good data for people with your problem, and that's the problem.
N Engl J Med. 1999 Aug 5;341(6):410-8.
Gemfibrozil for the secondary prevention of coronary heart disease in men with low levels of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol. Veterans Affairs High-Density Lipoprotein Cholesterol Intervention Trial Study Group.
Rubins HB, Robins SJ, Collins D, Fye CL, Anderson JW, Elam MB, Faas FH, Linares E, Schaefer EJ, Schectman G, Wilt TJ, Wittes J.
Center for Chronic Disease Outcomes Research, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Minneapolis, MN 55417, USA. bloom013@tc.umn.edu
BACKGROUND: Although it is generally accepted that lowering elevated serum levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol in patients with coronary heart disease is beneficial, there are few data to guide decisions about therapy for patients whose primary lipid abnormality is a low level of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol. METHODS: We conducted a double-blind trial comparing gemfibrozil (1200 mg per day) with placebo in 2531 men with coronary heart disease, an HDL cholesterol level of 40 mg per deciliter (1.0 mmol per liter) or less, and an LDL cholesterol level of 140 mg per deciliter (3.6 mmol per liter) or less. The primary study outcome was nonfatal myocardial infarction or death from coronary causes. RESULTS: The median follow-up was 5.1 years. At one year, the mean HDL cholesterol level was 6 percent higher, the mean triglyceride level was 31 percent lower, and the mean total cholesterol level was 4 percent lower in the gemfibrozil group than in the placebo group. LDL cholesterol levels did not differ significantly between the groups. A primary event occurred in 275 of the 1267 patients assigned to placebo (21.7 percent) and in 219 of the 1264 patients assigned to gemfibrozil (17.3 percent). The overall reduction in the risk of an event was 4.4 percentage points, and the reduction in relative risk was 22 percent (95 percent confidence interval, 7 to 35 percent; P=0.006). We observed a 24 percent reduction in the combined outcome of death from coronary heart disease, nonfatal myocardial infarction, and stroke (P< 0.001). There were no significant differences in the rates of coronary revascularization, hospitalization for unstable angina, death from any cause, and cancer. CONCLUSIONS: Gemfibrozil therapy resulted in a significant reduction in the risk of major cardiovascular events in patients with coronary disease whose primary lipid abnormality was a low HDL cholesterol level. The findings suggest that the rate of coronary events is reduced by raising HDL cholesterol levels and lowering levels of triglycerides without lowering LDL cholesterol levels.
Publication Types: Clinical Trial Multicenter Study Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 10438259 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Jason - 08 Jul 2005 04:54 GMT > >>Sorry to jump in the middle of this thread, but the comment on Lopid > being worthless caught my eye as I take Lopid (for very high [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > > PMID: 10438259 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Hello, That was interesting. I suggest that you visit this site and download the report. I would like your comments about those studies mentioned in the report. http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/statin.html Jason
 Signature NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
REP - 08 Jul 2005 05:31 GMT > >>Sorry to jump in the middle of this thread, but the comment on Lopid > being worthless caught my eye as I take Lopid (for very high > triglyceride levels associated with non-diabetic kidney disease). Is it > > just worthless for cholesterol control? My triglyclerides have dropped > from over 4,000 mg/dL to 150 mg/dL - not great, but much better. << Thank you for your response. Of course this means I have more questions and a few corrections (they say say the memory is the second thing that goes - I can't remember what the first is).
> COMMENT: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > recommend you do the 10 grams of fishoil a day and see if you can then > cut down your fibrate dose. First, the corrections: My actual result was 1407 mg/dL - bad, but not as bad as I remembered (I knew there was a "4" in it and it was very high); it's now 197 mg/dL. My total cholesterol - which was never high - is 156 mg/dL.
Now the questions: My kidney disease (confirmed by biopsy) is focal segmental glomerulosclerosis (FSGS) and I have nephrotic syndrome. Additionally, I am a well-controlled T2 diabetic (biopsy did show very early signs of diabetic nephropathy as well, but not enough to cause the nephrotic syndrome). Is the fish oil to reduce the triglycerides or treat the kidney disease? I did try fish oil on the "it can't hurt" basis for a couple years, but my proteinuria continued to increase (plus the biopsy ruled out IgA nephropathy) so I discontinued it.
I already have a pancreatic problem of sorts - diabetes - but, so far at least, all tests on my heart have shown it to be fine. I am at risk for congestive heart failure, but I don't think anyone is suggesting statins or fibrates wlll prevent that. Is fibrate therapy worth the risk (in general, of course) in patients with a constellation of defects such as mine? And just how carcinogenic *are* fibrates? Yikes!
 Signature "Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner." - Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
Robert - 08 Jul 2005 06:32 GMT > > >>Sorry to jump in the middle of this thread, but the comment on Lopid > > being worthless caught my eye as I take Lopid (for very high [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > general, of course) in patients with a constellation of defects such as > mine? And just how carcinogenic *are* fibrates? Yikes! I am glad Steve mentioned pancreatitis and it is common with TRIG over 1000 and I have seen a few or those along with pancreatitis as a result of high calcium's. You need to keep your TRIG's low as I am sure your name was posted throughout the lab. I am also sure your doctor was cursed at by the lab and more than a few fights between the lab and your doctor. Lipemia of that nature causes your blood to be real milky, bad problems with lab testing. As far as origins of lipemia hypertriglyceridemia, the most common cause is diabetes. I was going to suggest, before Steve's reply and that is why I am hesitant to reply to posts very quickly is because people do not volunteer information and leave that info out making one feel stupid, other causes for lipemia. Nephrotic syndrome as you are aware is a common problem with lipemia and you set Steve up on that. There is an inverse relationship between blood albumin and triglycerides, cholesterol. There is an inverse relationship between TRIG and HDL. As you lose albumin and other important proteins in your urine then your triglycerides begin to rise. This is what nephrotic syndrome is. The other problem is that you lose certain anti-coagulant proteins such as anti-thrombin III. Without this anti-coagulant you tend to get venous clotting. With low HDL's and high LDL's you can get CAD. FSGS is usually of unknown cause called primary. Secondary in smokers and other causes. Fish oil does not treat kidney disease. It only lowers triglycerides. In your case something you need to do is reduce TRIGs. Diabetic nephropathy if caught early can be treated with ACE inhibitors. Acute pancreatitis is very painful abdominal pain radiating to the back. Your pancreas is autodigesting. There are several enzymes that are typically elevated such as amylase and lipase. In chronic pancreatitis the pain is more subdued with time and a loss of pancreatic tissue often resulting in a loss of pancreatic function including insulin and the enzymes need not be elevated. Both forms can be associated with diabetes because of islet cell function destruction. You need to maintain pancreatic function and need to keep your triglycerides down. All the known factors impacting lipids come into play as to the degree of lipid alternations. Don't smoke, drink, eat healthy and any genetic alternations are also exaggerated.
Robert - 08 Jul 2005 06:42 GMT Please replace alternations with alterations. What the hell spellchecker. Please replace anything else that doesn't make sense.
zee - 08 Jul 2005 07:04 GMT > Please replace alternations with alterations. What the hell spellchecker. > Please replace anything else that doesn't make sense. ; )
REP - 08 Jul 2005 07:07 GMT > > > >>Sorry to jump in the middle of this thread, but the comment on Lopid > > > being worthless caught my eye as I take Lopid (for very high [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > and I have seen a few or those along with pancreatitis as a result of high > calcium's. Really dumb question: blood calcium, right? My serum calcium is only out of range by .1, but my urinary calcium is 250% of high normal.
> You need to keep your TRIG's low as I am sure your name was posted > throughout the lab. I am also sure your doctor was cursed at by the lab and > more than a few fights between the lab and your doctor. Lipemia of that > nature causes your blood to be real milky, bad problems with lab testing. The note on the lab results indicates that the test was preformed three times to confirm the result, so yes, I'm sure they were unhappy with me. Instead of an "H" to indicate "High," it had an "R" which I guess means "Risk" or maybe "Really!"
> As far as origins of lipemia hypertriglyceridemia, the most common cause is > diabetes. At the time I had the 1407mg/dL, I had not become diabetic. Due to family history plus the kidney disease, I was checked regularly, and after a rather large course of steroids for asthma, I finally did become diabetic. Since becoming diabetic, I've still be on the Lopid and still am 197mg/dL.
> I was going to suggest, before Steve's reply and that is why I am hesitant > to reply to posts very quickly is because people do not volunteer > information and leave that info out making one feel stupid, other causes for > lipemia. > Nephrotic syndrome as you are aware is a common problem with lipemia and you > set Steve up on that. I did not! I said I had very high triglycerides due to non-diabetic kidney disease in my first post! Since it was a very general question - are fibrates useless for tris - I didn't think reams and reams of details would be necessary.
> There is an inverse relationship between blood albumin and triglycerides, > cholesterol. There is an inverse relationship between TRIG and HDL. As you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > anti-thrombin III. Without this anti-coagulant you tend to get venous > clotting. It's like you know me! I have venous stasis on one leg from clots (or, to be clear, I was told I have it as the result of many small clots).
> With low HDL's and high LDL's you can get CAD. > FSGS is usually of unknown cause called primary. Secondary in smokers and > other causes. Mine is considered idiopathic, especially since I am a hypOtensive white female under age 40 at dx. Typical FSGS patients tend to be older black males with high blood pressure, or so I'm told.
> Fish oil does not treat kidney disease. It only lowers triglycerides. I thought I read it was of some value in patients with IgA nephropathy (Berger's disease).
> In your case something you need to do is reduce TRIGs. > Diabetic nephropathy if caught early can be treated with ACE inhibitors. I am being treated with an ARB (Cozaar) to try to slow the proteinuria, currently around 11g/24 hrs.
 Signature "Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner." - Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
Robert - 08 Jul 2005 09:49 GMT > > and I have seen a few or those along with pancreatitis as a result of high > > calcium's. > > Really dumb question: blood calcium, right? Yes, usually as a result of malignancy. The last case of pancreatitis involved a young woman breast cancer bone involvement.
My serum calcium is only out
> of range by .1, Only relevent with acute pancreatitis where it is usually low as a result of sapanification, chelation of fatty acids with calcium.
but my urinary calcium is 250% of high normal.
?? 24 hr collection? Let's just say I have seen my fair share of NS and haven't seen it ordered in relation to it. The loop diuretics used to treat the edema can cause calcium excretion and magnesium. They just don't usually order it.
> > You need to keep your TRIG's low as I am sure your name was posted > > throughout the lab. I am also sure your doctor was cursed at by the lab and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Instead of an "H" to indicate "High," it had an "R" which I guess means > "Risk" or maybe "Really!" Let's just say that there are other tests that may not be performed and can cause many treatment problems. Too many problems in hematology, chemistry, coagulation so you need to keep it low.
> > As far as origins of lipemia hypertriglyceridemia, the most common cause is > > diabetes. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > diabetic. Since becoming diabetic, I've still be on the Lopid and still > am 197mg/dL. That's good.
> > I was going to suggest, before Steve's reply and that is why I am hesitant > > to reply to posts very quickly is because people do not volunteer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I did not! I said I had very high triglycerides due to non-diabetic > kidney disease in my first post!
: -) I mean it was relevant. Since it was a very general question -
> are fibrates useless for tris - I didn't think reams and reams of > details would be necessary. Let's just say there is a difference between familial hypertriglyceridemia and other causes of elevated triglycerides. Treatment obviously depends on diagnosis. Renal patients also have high homocysteine levels also. It really gets complicated.
> > There is an inverse relationship between blood albumin and triglycerides, > > cholesterol. There is an inverse relationship between TRIG and HDL. As you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It's like you know me! I have venous stasis on one leg from clots (or, > to be clear, I was told I have it as the result of many small clots). That happens to NS patients in general.
> > With low HDL's and high LDL's you can get CAD. > > FSGS is usually of unknown cause called primary. Secondary in smokers and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > female under age 40 at dx. Typical FSGS patients tend to be older black > males with high blood pressure, or so I'm told. Hypotensive and not hypertensive?
> > Fish oil does not treat kidney disease. It only lowers triglycerides. > > I thought I read it was of some value in patients with IgA nephropathy > (Berger's disease). I wasn't kidding when I said any corrections are welcome. I have read some use of fish oils in Berger's disease within the last five years. Treatment is not what I get involved with so I try to stay away from that. I should have just closed my mouth on that. Although you don't have Berger's disease I will defer to your treating doctor on that and then Steve. Berger's is pretty common among kidney ailments. It usually starts as blood in urine although it can progess to NS.
> > In your case something you need to do is reduce TRIGs. > > Diabetic nephropathy if caught early can be treated with ACE inhibitors. > > I am being treated with an ARB (Cozaar) to try to slow the proteinuria, > currently around 11g/24 hrs. That is pretty high. There are some laboratory teaching points that are seen in the urinalysis. Interns and residents often look for oval fat bodies and fatty cell casts in urines indicative of NS. Thanks for the reference on fish oils with Berger's I'll have to use that as we are a teaching hospital and they come to check patients and ask our help in looking through the microscope. I am a jack of all trades and a master of none. I am not a doctor and thereby have to work for a living so don't hold my feet to the fire. Hold Steve's.
Good luck to you.
REP - 08 Jul 2005 13:07 GMT > > > and I have seen a few or those along with pancreatitis as a result of > high [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes, usually as a result of malignancy. The last case of pancreatitis > involved a young woman breast cancer bone involvement. How terrible. Makes me feel pretty damn lucky.
> My serum calcium is only out > > of range by .1, > Only relevent with acute pancreatitis where it is usually low as a result of > sapanification, chelation of fatty acids with calcium. And mine's out of range on the high side, and by so little as to not matter.
> but my urinary calcium is 250% of high normal. > > ?? > 24 hr collection? Yup - sorry, should have been specific. In addition to the other kidney bothers, I pass stones every 30-45 days. I've gotten to know the lab folks really well.
> Let's just say I have seen my fair share of NS and haven't seen it ordered > in relation to it. The loop diuretics used to treat the edema can cause > calcium excretion and magnesium. They just don't usually order it. I had a 'stone panel' 24-hour collection to see why I make so many stones. CaOx within normal; calcium and uric acid both 200%+ of high normal.
> Treatment obviously depends on diagnosis. Renal patients also have high > homocysteine levels also. It really gets complicated. But at least we're usually too tired to be very difficult. Usually!
> > > anti-thrombin III. Without this anti-coagulant you tend to get venous > > > clotting. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That happens to NS patients in general. I'm not surprised *you* know, but I'm used to actual real-life doctors who want to give me Toradol, so running into someone who's just examined my words and has such a clear picture is, well, fun.
> > Mine is considered idiopathic, especially since I am a hypOtensive white > > female under age 40 at dx. Typical FSGS patients tend to be older black > > males with high blood pressure, or so I'm told. > > Hypotensive and not hypertensive? I'm hypOtensive, and have been all my life. My BP before starting ARB therapy was 90/50; now it's 86/40. I also take 120mg Lasix; perhaps following politics keeps it from going lower.
> > > Fish oil does not treat kidney disease. It only lowers triglycerides. > > > > I thought I read it was of some value in patients with IgA nephropathy > > (Berger's disease). > > I wasn't kidding when I said any corrections are welcome. And I was willing to accept that perhaps I was wrong, but I double-checked myself and found several reputable sources backing me up, incuding The Journal of American Nephrology, National Institutes of Health and The National Kidney Foundation.
> I have read some use of fish oils in Berger's disease within the last five > years. Treatment is not what I get involved with so I try to stay away from > that. I should have just closed my mouth on that. You would have been right about the rest of them.
> Although you don't have Berger's disease I will defer to your treating > doctor on that and then Steve. > Berger's is pretty common among kidney ailments. It usually starts as blood > in urine although it can progess to NS. As I mentioned, I'm a fairly atypical FSGS patient (though I guess that's what the "idiopathic" means), and even though I didn't have hematuria, Berger's is common enough in my ethnic group that at one point it was hoped I had it (it's prognosis is better than FSGS's).
> > > In your case something you need to do is reduce TRIGs. > > > Diabetic nephropathy if caught early can be treated with ACE inhibitors. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That is pretty high. Enough to cause some cosmetic problems (besides pitting edema).
> I am not a doctor and thereby have to work for a living so don't hold my > feet to the fire. Hold Steve's. Not going to happen. I thank you both for taking the time to answer my questions and teach me stuff I didn't know.
 Signature "Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner." - Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
Robert - 08 Jul 2005 19:15 GMT > > > > and I have seen a few or those along with pancreatitis as a result of > > high [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > bothers, I pass stones every 30-45 days. I've gotten to know the lab > folks really well. That is the most common reason for performing urine calicium. The high blood calcium might reflect hyperparathyroidism. Hyperparathyroidism is a common cause of stone formation. A PTH and a calcium are measured in order to see the relation of both. By the way although I have to play fit the test to the symptom. The order is usually the other way around.
> > Let's just say I have seen my fair share of NS and haven't seen it ordered > > in relation to it. The loop diuretics used to treat the edema can cause [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stones. CaOx within normal; calcium and uric acid both 200%+ of high > normal. Some people don't consider urine analytes as useful in determining response to intervention. It is still hit and miss with treatment. Most of the stones I have analyzed have been calcium oxalate. I have never seen anything else in humans. The reason for stone formation can vary and clues can be found with urine testings.
> > Treatment obviously depends on diagnosis. Renal patients also have high > > homocysteine levels also. It really gets complicated. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > who want to give me Toradol, so running into someone who's just examined > my words and has such a clear picture is, well, fun. Apart from my interactions in helping doctors recognize what they are looking in the laboratory, my main function is to avoid doctors all together. Some of the doctors are too embarassed to ask other doctors so they ask us about laboratory testing.
> > > Mine is considered idiopathic, especially since I am a hypOtensive white > > > female under age 40 at dx. Typical FSGS patients tend to be older black [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > therapy was 90/50; now it's 86/40. I also take 120mg Lasix; perhaps > following politics keeps it from going lower. Lasix is a diuretic that excretes calcium in urine.
> > > > Fish oil does not treat kidney disease. It only lowers triglycerides. > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > incuding The Journal of American Nephrology, National Institutes of > Health and The National Kidney Foundation. Good for you. Some one asked my about Berger's disease and if the diagnoses was consistent as the doctor looked it up on the net. This was a third world country in which no biopsy etc is carried out involving a child with blood in urine. Usually the concern is with diagnosis and the treatment can be simply looked up.
> > I have read some use of fish oils in Berger's disease within the last five > > years. Treatment is not what I get involved with so I try to stay away from [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > hematuria, Berger's is common enough in my ethnic group that at one > point it was hoped I had it (it's prognosis is better than FSGS's). Sorry to hear that. Idiopathic means unkown or primary. Some cases of E.coli O157 food borne infections have resulted in HUS and FSGS's.
> > > > In your case something you need to do is reduce TRIGs. > > > > Diabetic nephropathy if caught early can be treated with ACE inhibitors. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Enough to cause some cosmetic problems (besides pitting edema). More than just cosmetic as that is a lot of protein one is losing. Be careful with infections etc.
> > I am not a doctor and thereby have to work for a living so don't hold my > > feet to the fire. Hold Steve's. > > Not going to happen. I thank you both for taking the time to answer my > questions and teach me stuff I didn't know. I know from a poster and reader that doctors are rare here and other medical NG's. There are a variety of reasons for that. I try not to cross the line on giving medcial advice but I am comfortable giving general info related to the medical laboratory for educational purposes.
Robert.
Jason - 08 Jul 2005 18:07 GMT > > >>Sorry to jump in the middle of this thread, but the comment on Lopid > > being worthless caught my eye as I take Lopid (for very high [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > general, of course) in patients with a constellation of defects such as > mine? And just how carcinogenic *are* fibrates? Yikes! Hello, I have a book that I want to recommend to you. Many of your questions will be answered as a result of reading the book: "COPING WITH KIDNEY DISEASE--A 12 STEP TREATMENT PROGRAM TO HELP YOU AVOID DIALYSIS" by Mackenzie Walser, MD I purchased the book to learn about acidosos but ended up learning lots of info. about other kidney diseases. It's easy to read and understand since it was writtten for regular people not involved in the medical profession. I hope this helps you. Jason
 Signature NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
Daniel Prince - 08 Jul 2005 20:22 GMT >N Engl J Med. 1999 Aug 5;341(6):410-8. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >heart disease is beneficial, there are few data to guide decisions >about therapy Were you aware that when you post medical journal articles, they come through with many very short lines which make them harder to read?
 Signature My cat really loves me. When it is cold at night he lies right up against me in the bed to help keep me warm.
zee - 08 Jul 2005 22:20 GMT > >>Sorry to jump in the middle of this thread, but the comment on Lopid > being worthless caught my eye as I take Lopid (for very high [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > > PMID: 10438259 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] REP:
Information here on fish oil and triglycerides to discuss with SBH and your physician.
Zee
Friday, July 08, 2005
Flaxseed is no substitute for fish oil
BY RICHARD HARKNESS
Knight Ridder Newspapers
(KRT) - Q: I was told that flaxseed oil capsules were just as good as fish oil capsules because both contain the same omega-3 fatty acids. I take fish oil capsules to lower my triglycerides, but get a fishy aftertaste with them. Will switching to flaxseed oil capsules work OK?
A: The quick answer is no. Only fish oil appears to substantially lower blood levels of triglycerides.
What you were told is a common misconception. It's true that flaxseed oil and fish oil both contain omega-3 fatty acids, but there's an important difference between the two.
Fish oil contains the preformed omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA. Flaxseed oil, on the other hand, contains the omega-3 fatty acid called alpha-linolenic acid or ALA for short, which is the precursor of the omega-3 fatty acids present in fish oil.
The body can convert the ALA in flaxseed oil to EPA and DHA, but converted amounts seem to be minimal.
Though flaxseed oil is thought to be heart-healthy in its own right, you can't count on it as a substitute for fish oil.
There are two ways to increase your intake of fish oil omega-3 fatty acids: Eat fish or take a fish oil supplement.
Your fish menu could include cold-water fish such as salmon, tuna, mullet, herring, mackerel, sardine and lake trout.
Research suggests that fish oil cuts the risk of heart disease and is heart-protective in those who already have heart disease.
Fish oil's heart-healthy benefits appear to include lowering the heart rate, fighting inflammation, reducing blood clot formation, and inhibiting plaque buildup in arteries.
Fish oil at a daily dose of 3 to 12 grams lowers triglyceride concentrations by 20 to 50 percent. Acids present in fish oil should hit pharmacy shelves soon. Called Omicor, it will be marketed for treating high triglycerides. The manufacturer also wants it approved for preventing recurrent heart attacks.
Omicor presents doctors with a new option for treating patients who have both high LDL-cholesterol and high triglycerides.
These individuals often require two drugs, generally a statin drug (Lipitor, Mevacor, Zocor, Lescol, Pravachol, Crestor) combined with a triglycerides-lowering drug (Lopid, TriCor, niacin).
However, such drug combinations can boost the risk of a serious muscle-kidney disorder called rhabdomyolysis. Omicor appears not to carry this risk.
A caution: Fish oil in daily doses over 3 grams thins the blood. Combining it with blood-thinning drugs could increase the risk of excessive bleeding. These include aspirin, NSAIDs (e.g., ibuprofen, naproxen), clopidogrel (Plavix), dalteparin (Fragmin), enoxaparin (Lovenox), and warfarin (Coumadin). Blood-thinning supplements include garlic, ginkgo, phosphatidylserine, and high-dose vitamin E.
FAIR USE http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/living/12084511.htm
Jason - 09 Jul 2005 01:19 GMT > > >>Sorry to jump in the middle of this thread, but the comment on Lopid > > being worthless caught my eye as I take Lopid (for very high [quoted text clipped - 188 lines] > FAIR USE > http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/living/12084511.htm Zee, I might have missed it--Does Omicor need a prescription from a doctor? Do you plan to try it? Jason
 Signature NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
zee - 09 Jul 2005 01:19 GMT > > > >>Sorry to jump in the middle of this thread, but the comment on Lopid > > > being worthless caught my eye as I take Lopid (for very high [quoted text clipped - 198 lines] > We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. > We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. No Jason I do not plan to try it; or anything else that hasn't been on the market for five years with startlingly good double blind randomized trial evidence for people like me.
Zee
outrider - 07 Jul 2005 23:21 GMT > >>I have it also. I'm also still here. I have decided NOT to take chol. pill > to treat the problem due to the dangerous side effects. Since I am a [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > SBH Thank you for responding to my invitation Dr. Harris.
Zee
zee - 07 Jul 2005 23:26 GMT > >>I have it also. I'm also still here. I have decided NOT to take chol. pill > to treat the problem due to the dangerous side effects. Since I am a [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > SBH Thank you for responding to my invitation Dr. Harris.
Zee
Daniel Prince - 08 Jul 2005 20:22 GMT >Any statin can >cause side effects and needs to be stopped instantly at the first sign >of muscle pain, mental problem, numbness, or really ANY symptom of ill >health. What if you have muscle pain and VERY poor health without taking a statin, should you avoid taking them?
 Signature My cat really loves me. When it is cold at night he lies right up against me in the bed to help keep me warm.
|
|
|