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Medical Forum / General / General / July 2005Can Autoimmunity be a Positive Defence?
Hello all, Autoimmunity is thought to be a disease having a negative impact of our various body parts. "Immune system defends you. It sees and kills the germs that might hurt you. But when the system doesn't work right, this process can cause harm. Immune cells can mistake your body's own cells as invaders and attack them. This "friendly fire" can affect almost any part of the body. It can sometimes affect many parts of the body at once. This is called autoimmunity (meaning self-immunity). No one knows why the immune system treats some body parts like germs." http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/autoimmune/autoimmunity.htm However I have some doubts; whether so thought Autoimmunity is really a "always harming disorder" of our system or Can also be a positive natural defence mechanism of immune system to save our life as a whole at the cost of some temporary or permanent damages by causing Autoimmunities? Let us think about latent infections, cancer or other chronic diseases. Can it be possible that some damages may take place in form of Autoimmunities to starve the "disease causing agents" from their required nutrients, Oxygen to resist or restrict their growth & spread or to encourage anorexia to withhold intestinal absorptions for this purpose? Can pancreatic islet cell damages in diabetes, be meant to save us from hyperinsulinemia's persistant effects? Other autoimmune diseases can also be thought for some natural body's mechanism hidden behind these "to save us as a whole at the cost of some". Best wishes. It seems to me I heard somewhere that kumar wrote in article <1119860358.530130.243550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: >Autoimmunity is thought to be a disease having a negative impact of our >various body parts. "Thought to be"? >"Immune system defends you. It sees and kills the germs that might hurt >you. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >system treats some body parts like germs." >http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/autoimmune/autoimmunity.htm >However I have some doubts; whether so thought Autoimmunity is really a >"always harming disorder" of our system or Can also be a positive >natural defence mechanism of immune system to save our life as a whole >at the cost of some temporary or permanent damages by causing >Autoimmunities? You might want to discuss your doubts with the folks suffering from the roughly 170 varieties of rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus or fibromyalgia or some of the other autoimmune diseases. A cardiology group isn't likely where you'll find experienced opinions. >Let us think about latent infections, cancer or other chronic diseases. >Can it be possible that some damages may take place in form of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >diseases can also be thought for some natural body's mechanism hidden >behind these "to save us as a whole at the cost of some". I think many sufferers don't feel thankful for being "saved [. . .] as a whole at the cost of some" while they die from the actions of their autoimmune systems. Lupus is often fatal; Crohn's can be fatal; some forms of rheumatoid arthritis can be fatal.  SignatureDon Kirkman > It seems to me I heard somewhere that kumar wrote in article > <1119860358.530130.243550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > -- > Don Kirkman Excuse me for being so picky today, but "some forms of rheumatoid arthritis can be fatal?" Really? How about, some forms of RA can contribute to mortality? Ever seen a death certificate read, cause of death: RA? -elgoog, willing to be corrected. > > You might want to discuss your doubts with the folks suffering from the > > roughly 170 varieties of rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus or fibromyalgia [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -elgoog, willing to be corrected. http://ard.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/47/7/563 > > > You might want to discuss your doubts with the folks suffering from the > > > roughly 170 varieties of rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus or fibromyalgia [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > http://ard.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/47/7/563 Thank you, J! -elgoog It seems to me I heard somewhere that elgoog wrote in article <1119906095.254749.175860@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: >> > > >Let us think about latent infections, cancer or other chronic diseases. >> > > >Can it be possible that some damages may take place in form of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > > >diseases can also be thought for some natural body's mechanism hidden >> > > >behind these "to save us as a whole at the cost of some". >> > > I think many sufferers don't feel thankful for being "saved [. . .] as a >> > > whole at the cost of some" while they die from the actions of their >> > > autoimmune systems. Lupus is often fatal; Crohn's can be fatal; some >> > > forms of rheumatoid arthritis can be fatal. >> > Excuse me for being so picky today, but "some forms of rheumatoid >> > arthritis can be fatal?" Really? How about, some forms of RA can >> > contribute to mortality? Ever seen a death certificate read, cause of >> > death: RA? Sometimes picky is good. :-) >> > -elgoog, willing to be corrected. >> http://ard.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/47/7/563 >Thank you, J! I thank you both. That kind of dialog is what this group is for. SignatureDon Kirkman > It seems to me I heard somewhere that kumar wrote in article > <1119860358.530130.243550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > or some of the other autoimmune diseases. A cardiology group isn't > likely where you'll find experienced opinions. A cardiology newsgroup is indeed where one can find experienced opinions on auto-immune disorders. STATINS, taken by almost every poster here in sci.med.cardiology are proven to cause such disorders, including an autoimmune hepatitis, lupus, the arthritises and more. Zee > >Let us think about latent infections, cancer or other chronic diseases. > >Can it be possible that some damages may take place in form of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > autoimmune systems. Lupus is often fatal; Crohn's can be fatal; some > forms of rheumatoid arthritis can be fatal. > > It seems to me I heard somewhere that kumar wrote in article > > <1119860358.530130.243550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Zee You guys asked for it. From one rational discussion to this. >> > It seems to me I heard somewhere that kumar wrote in article >> > <1119860358.530130.243550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> > You guys asked for it. From one rational discussion to this. "proven" by "experienced opinions"??? Indeed. L. It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article <1119912302.631653.106420@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that kumar wrote in article >> <1119860358.530130.243550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: >> >Autoimmunity is thought to be a disease having a negative impact of our >> >various body parts. >> >"Immune system defends you. It sees and kills the germs that might hurt >> >you. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >system treats some body parts like germs." >> >http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/autoimmune/autoimmunity.htm >> >However I have some doubts; whether so thought Autoimmunity is really a >> >"always harming disorder" of our system or Can also be a positive >> >natural defence mechanism of immune system to save our life as a whole >> >at the cost of some temporary or permanent damages by causing >> >Autoimmunities? >> You might want to discuss your doubts with the folks suffering from the >> roughly 170 varieties of rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus or fibromyalgia >> or some of the other autoimmune diseases. A cardiology group isn't >> likely where you'll find experienced opinions. >A cardiology newsgroup is indeed where one can find experienced >opinions on auto-immune disorders. STATINS, taken by almost every >poster here in sci.med.cardiology are proven to cause such disorders, >including an autoimmune hepatitis, lupus, the arthritises and more. I'd strongly advise a newsgroup for arthritis, lupus, fibromyalgia, Crohn's or other autoimmune-related diseases. I've pointed out in this very newsgroup some very misleading "experienced opinions" even from a medically trained opiner--and he wasn't even discussing statins. Further, I don't think I've ever seen a message in an arthritis newsgroup from someone on statins--and yet they have the crippling diseases. May we see the peer-reviewed evidence that statins "are proven to cause such disorders"? SignatureDon Kirkman > It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article > <1119912302.631653.106420@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > May we see the peer-reviewed evidence that statins "are proven to > cause such disorders"? And remember, the key word is "proven". L. ~Further, I don't think I've ever seen a message in an arthritis newsgroup from someone on statins--and yet they have the crippling diseases. ~ As you yourself have just shown, many with those diseases aren't aware they can be caused or worsened by statin use. ~May we see the peer-reviewed evidence that statins "are proven to cause such disorders"?~ You'll find more here: http://www.pubmed.org http://www.lipitor.com/pi/default.asp, Musculoskeletal System: Arthritis, leg cramps, bursitis, tenosynovitis, myasthenia, tendinous contracture, myositis. Drug-induced lupus-like syndrome associated with severe autoimmune hepatitis. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 2765306&dopt=Abstract Graziadei IW, Obermoser GE, Sepp NT, Erhart KH, Vogel W. Lupus. 2003;12(5):409-12. PMID: 12765306 [PubMed - in process] "Atorvastatin and other members of the statin family are widely used for the treatment of hypercholesterolaemia in order to reduce the risk of atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease. Atorvastatin-induced adverse events are mostly mild and only a few cases of lupus-like syndrome or severe acute hepatitis have been documented. In this case report we describe a patient who developed an atorvastatin-induced severe autoimmune hepatitis. In addition, this patient presented with a concomitant systemic lupus-like syndrome which has been already described for statins but not in association with severe liver disease. Although the drug was immediately withdrawn the disease persisted and even deteriorated to a fulminant disease with evidence of acute hepatic failure. The patient failed to respond to conventional immunosuppression with corticosteroids and azathioprine. Only the introduction of intense immunosuppressive therapy, as used in solid organ transplantation, led to a complete and sustained recovery of the patient. Interestingly, the patient was HLA DR3- and HLA DR4-positive, which are well-known genetic factors associated with autoimmune diseases. This case is the first report of a drug-induced lupus-likesyndrome concomitant with a severe autoimmune hepatitis in a genetically predisposed patient." Noel B, Panizzon RG. Lupus-like syndrome associated with statin therapy. Dermatology. 2004;208(3):276-7. PMID: 15118389 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] "Statins are among the most widely prescribed drugs. An increasing number of lupus-like syndrome has recently been reported with these lipid-lowering agents. We describe a new case associated with simvastatin therapy. The presence of anti-dsDNA antibodies in the serum is for the first time reported confirming that statins may also induce a systemic autoimmune reaction. Statin-induced lupus-like syndrome is characterized by the long delay between the beginning of therapy and the skin eruption. Antinuclear antibodies may persist for many months after drug discontinuation. The causal relationship may be therefore difficult to establish, and probably many cases are unrecognized. Early diagnosis may avoid unnecessary immunosuppressive therapy. Copyright 2004 S. Karger AG, Basel" Lantuejoul S, Brambilla E, Brambilla C, Devouassoux G. Bannwarth B, Miremont G, Papapietro PM. Lupuslike syndrome associated with simvastatin. Arch Intern Med. 1992 May;152(5):1093. No abstract available. PMID: 1510761 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Goli AK, Goli SA, Byrd RP Jr, Roy TM. Abstract Simvastatin-induced lactic acidosis: a rare adverse reaction? Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2002 Oct;72(4):461-4. PMID: 12386648 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Atzeni F, Marrazza MG, Sarzi-Puttini P, Carrabba M. Free Full Text [Drug-induced lupus erythematosus] Reumatismo. 2003;55(3):147-54. Review. Italian. PMID: 14513113 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Noel B. No abstract Risks and benefits of statins in lupus erythematosus. Arch Intern Med. 2004 Jan 12;164(1):107-8. No abstract available. PMID: 14718334 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Chazerain P, Hayem G, Hamza S, Best C, Ziza JM. Abstract Four cases of tendinopathy in patients on statin therapy. Joint Bone Spine. 2001 Oct;68(5):430-3. PMID: 11707010 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Khosla R, Butman AN, Hammer DF. Abstract Simvastatin-induced lupus erythematosus. South Med J. 1998 Sep;91(9):873-4. PMID: 9743064 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Rajabally YA, Varakantam V, Abbott RJ. Abstract Disorder resembling Guillain-Barre syndrome on initiation of statin therapy. Muscle Nerve. 2004 Nov;30(5):663-6. PMID: 15389662 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Ahmad A, Fletcher MT, Roy TM. Abstract Simvastatin-induced lupus-like syndrome. Tenn Med. 2000 Jan;93(1):21-2. PMID: 10628262 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Thanks. "Idiopathic autoimmune hemolytic anemia results from an abnormality of the immune system that destroys red blood cells prematurely. The cause is unknown." http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...icle/000579.htm "Such diseases as rheumatoid arthritis, connective tissue disorders, chronic infection, trauma or malignancy are commonly confused with mild iron deficiency anemia. Instead, they are related to anemia of chronic disease. The body will naturally withhold iron from carcinogenic or infectious entities because of their need for iron. In these cases, iron upplementation can actually contribute to the spread of disease. "http://www.innvista.com/health/ailm...ias/irondef.htm Can't these anemias be autoimmune oriented but still for positive defences? > Thanks. > > "Idiopathic autoimmune hemolytic anemia results from an abnormality of > the immune system that destroys red blood cells prematurely. The cause > is unknown." > http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...icle/000579.htm I don't know what you mean by the cause is unkown. There are associations of autoimmune hemolytic anemia AIHA with lymphoproliferative disorders. Sometimes AIHA can herald a lymphoma a few years ahead of time. Some medications may act as haptens with antibodies directed to red cell antigens or the drug itself found on the red cell resulting in red cell destruction. Most of these are antibiotics such cephalosporins or hypertension medication. Sometimes there is an infection involved with antibodies forming against red cell antigens. Infectious mono, syphilis, atypical pneumonia are examples. Each diagnosis of AIHA, and I did one yesterday requires a medication record and history. This patient was on three different antibiotics and had hepatitis B. Of all the AIHA workups that I have done the past 30 years, none involved statins. > "Such diseases as rheumatoid arthritis, connective tissue disorders, > chronic infection, trauma or malignancy are commonly confused with mild > iron deficiency anemia. There is no confusion as the iron studies are distinctive. A percent saturation of less than 5 is iron deficiency anemia. The ferritin level is normal in anemia of chronic disease and a CRP should always be done to interpret the ferritin to rule out inflammation. RA can cause felty's syndrome with neutropenia and lymphocytosis. What is confused is thalasemia and iron deficiency anemia which on smear look similar. Some of the cancers show a leukoerythrocytosis of nucleated red blood cells with immature white cells as bone marrow is being replaced by cancer cells. They also have low platelet counts which is the opposite of iron deficiency with high platelets and a high red cell distribution width. Instead, they are related to anemia of chronic > disease. The body will naturally withhold iron from carcinogenic or > infectious entities because of their need for iron. In these cases, > iron upplementation can actually contribute to the spread of disease. > "http://www.innvista.com/health/ailm...ias/irondef.htm Iron studies are important and clincial assessment. Sometimes iron is given and the reticulocytosis is followed. These young cells are counted to see if the iron is working or if no response is happening such as iron lock out. > Can't these anemias be autoimmune oriented but still for positive > defences? Anemia of chronic disease is not autoimmune unless you consider all human physiology immune in nature. "I don't know what you mean by the cause is unkown." It is mentioned in link provoded by me. "Anemia of chronic disease is not autoimmune unless you consider all human physiology immune in nature." Btw, When a person is capable to have all the needed foods & other required inputs, Can variations or most variations in his CBC test indicate involvement of immune system or not--directly or indirectly?? It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article <1119919072.704977.293910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: >~Further, I don't think I've ever seen a message in an arthritis >newsgroup from someone on statins--and yet they have the crippling >diseases. ~ >As you yourself have just shown, many with those diseases aren't aware >they can be caused or worsened by statin use. You do read English, don't you? These patients AREN'T ON STATINS and never have been, and yet they're bedridden, in wheelchairs, on disability or unable to do routine daily activities because of autoimmune diseases. >~May we see the peer-reviewed evidence that statins "are proven to >cause such disorders"?~ May we see peer-reviewed evidence that statins "are **proven** to cause such disorders? Discussion below. >You'll find more here: >http://www.pubmed.org One of the first articles to come up with a search on "statins +autoimmune" was this one: [Begin] : Autoimmun Rev. 2005 Mar;4(3):123-9. Related Articles, Links Statins and autoimmune diseases. Gurevich VS, Shovman O, Slutzky L, Meroni PL, Shoenfeld Y. Mechnicov's State Medical Academy, The Center of Atherosclerosis and Lipid Disorders, Tel-Hashomer, Israel. Inhibitors of 3-hydroxy-3methylglytaryl coenzyme A (HMG-CoA) reductase or statins are effective lipid lowering drugs widely used in cardiovascular disease. In the recent years, pleotropic effects of statins have been reported, which include anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory properties. This review discusses the anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory roles of statins and their possible use for the treatment of other inflammatory diseases or conditions with the involvement of the immune system. PMID: 15823497 [PubMed - in process] [End] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15823497&query_hl=1 >http://www.lipitor.com/pi/default.asp Oddly, that link didn't lead me to what you cite here (moved down to allow for this comment). What it did lead to was an excellent objective discussion of lipitor, its biochemical action, some study results, possible issues with specific populations, and prescribing guidelines. A word search of the article fails to find either "immune" or "autoimmune." Actually this seems to come from the link below, not the one just above. Did you read the articles, or did you rely on the abstracts? My comments below are based on the abstracts since I don't have reasonable access to the full articles. >Musculoskeletal System: Arthritis, leg cramps, bursitis, tenosynovitis, >myasthenia, tendinous contracture, myositis. >Drug-induced lupus-like syndrome associated with severe autoimmune >hepatitis. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Lupus. 2003;12(5):409-12. >PMID: 12765306 [PubMed - in process] [Reformatted!] >"Atorvastatin and other members of the statin family are widely >used for the treatment of hypercholesterolaemia in order to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >with statin therapy. Dermatology. 2004;208(3):276-7. PMID: >15118389 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] You did read this, I assume. It discusses one patient; it is not a study, and it does not support a blanket statement that "STATINS, taken by almost every poster here in sci.med.cardiology are proven to cause such disorders, including an autoimmune hepatitis, lupus, the arthritises and more." >Bannwarth B, Miremont G, Papapietro PM. >Lupuslike syndrome associated with simvastatin. >Arch Intern Med. 1992 May;152(5):1093. No abstract available. >PMID: 1510761 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] No abstract, so no further information. >Goli AK, Goli SA, Byrd RP Jr, Roy TM. >Abstract Simvastatin-induced lactic acidosis: a rare adverse reaction? >Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2002 Oct;72(4):461-4. >PMID: 12386648 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Is lactic acidosis an autoimmune disorder? >Atzeni F, Marrazza MG, Sarzi-Puttini P, Carrabba M. >Free Full Text [Drug-induced lupus erythematosus] >Reumatismo. 2003;55(3):147-54. Review. Italian. >PMID: 14513113 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Interesting, but where's the statin connection? [Begin] Atzeni F, Marrazza MG, Sarzi-Puttini P, Carrabba M. Unita Operativa di Reumatologia, Universita Ospedale L. Sacco, Milano, Italia. atzenifabiola@hotmail.com Drug-induced lupus is a syndrome which share symptoms and laboratory characteristics with the idiopathic systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE). The list of medications implicated as etiologic agents in drug-induced lupus continues to grow. The terms used for this condition are lupus-like syndrome, drug-induced lupus erythematosus (DILE) and drug related lupus. More than 80 drugs have been associated with DILE. The first case of DILE was reported in 1945 and associated with sulfadiazin. In 1953 it was reported that DILE was related to the use of hydralazine. Drugs responsible for the development of DILE can divided into three groups, but the list of these drugs is quite long because new drugs are included yearly in the list. The syndrome is characterised by arthralgia, myalgia, pleurisy, rash and fever in association with antinuclear antibodies in the serum. Recognition of DILE is important because it usually reverts within a few weeks after stopping the drug. [End] Note that true autoimmune lupus does NOT revert. > "Statins are among the >most widely prescribed drugs. An increasing number of lupus-like [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >immunosuppressive therapy. Copyright 2004 S. Karger AG, Basel" >Lantuejoul S, Brambilla E, Brambilla C, Devouassoux G. I must have missed the link for the above article, so I can't comment on the context or the findings. It is clear, though, that the conclusion is "statins may also induce a systemic autoimmune reaction," not that they invariably do. >Noel B. >No abstract Risks and benefits of statins in lupus erythematosus. >Arch Intern Med. 2004 Jan 12;164(1):107-8. No abstract available. >PMID: 14718334 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] No abstract. >Chazerain P, Hayem G, Hamza S, Best C, Ziza JM. >Abstract Four cases of tendinopathy in patients on statin therapy. >Joint Bone Spine. 2001 Oct;68(5):430-3. >PMID: 11707010 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Four cases of tendon involvement, all of which resolved a few months after discontinuing statins. " Although most patients tolerate statins extremely well, a few experience side effects requiring treatment discontinuation. Reported musculoskeletal side effects include myalgia and a few cases of rhabdomyolysis and polymyositis. Induced lupus and peripheral neuropathy are exceedingly rare." >Khosla R, Butman AN, Hammer DF. >Abstract Simvastatin-induced lupus erythematosus. >South Med J. 1998 Sep;91(9):873-4. >PMID: 9743064 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE "We report the case of a 79-year-old man who had onset of fatigue, myalgia, and pleuritic chest pain 3 months after initiation of therapy with simvastatin. He had signs of pleuropericarditis due to simvastatin-induced lupus erythematosus. This should alert clinicians to this possible adverse effect of simvastatin and other statins." Again, induced lupus is not the real thing; it resolves when the inducing agent is removed. >Rajabally YA, Varakantam V, Abbott RJ. >Abstract Disorder resembling Guillain-Barre syndrome on initiation of >statin therapy. >Muscle Nerve. 2004 Nov;30(5):663-6. >PMID: 15389662 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] "We report a disorder resembling Guillain-Barre syndrome, occurring on initiation of simvastatin, in a 58-year-old man, who had experienced a similar but milder episode after starting pravastatin 6 months earlier. This case suggests that acute polyradiculoneuropathy may represent a rare but serious side-effect of statin treatment. It also raises the issue of the pathophysiology of acute neuropathy on statin exposure, with a hypersensitivity reaction resulting in an immune-mediated process being possible instead of the hypothesized mitochondrial dysfunction in chronic cases." This one case *raises a question* about nerve damage from statins, specifically the issue that statin exposure *may* involve an immune-mediated process rather than some other process. Again, we see a suggestion that an issue be researched, not a statement of causality. >Ahmad A, Fletcher MT, Roy TM. >Abstract Simvastatin-induced lupus-like syndrome. >Tenn Med. 2000 Jan;93(1):21-2. >PMID: 10628262 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] "The 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A (HMG-CoA) reductase inhibitors are widely used as cholesterol lowering agents that have an acceptable safety profile. As a group, this class of drugs has been associated with few immunologic reactions. Simvastatin (Zocor) has been linked to three cases of drug-induced lupus-like syndrome. We report the case of an additional patient who developed pleurisy and arthralgia after he started taking this low-density lipoprotein and cholesterol-lowering agent." IMO you failed to make your case. Your citations discuss conditions known long before statins were available, provide evidence of conditions caused by various agents including (by inference, in some cases) statins, report conditions that resolve when statins are stopped, and include very little direct linkage to the autoimmune diseases. SignatureDon Kirkman > It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article > <1119919072.704977.293910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 248 lines] > stopped, and include very little direct linkage to the autoimmune > diseases. What a surprise..... Thanks to Don for fighting the good fight. L. > It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article > <1119919072.704977.293910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You do read English, don't you? These patients AREN'T ON STATINS and > never have been, and yet they're bedridden, in wheelchairs, on > disability or unable to do routine daily activities because of > autoimmune diseases. You can prove that with each and every poster at the auto-immune disorder newsgroups, and each and every person posting to smc who has taken a statin (and been told their new onset, or worsening arthritis, cannot possibly be caused by statins?) You cannot even prove statins have not affected your own arthritis, as long as you continue taking them. And even if you could how would that obviate that *some* people, as these studies show, can have statin-induced auto-immune diseases. And *some* of those will not recover. For if you are willing to accpept that the *one* person who is the case study has recovered from that, then you have de facto accepted this exists. Zee > >~May we see the peer-reviewed evidence that statins "are proven to > >cause such disorders"?~ [quoted text clipped - 229 lines] > statins, report conditions that resolve when statins are stopped, and > include very little direct linkage to the autoimmune diseases. It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article <1119993371.428133.28080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>: >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article >> <1119919072.704977.293910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: >> >~Further, I don't think I've ever seen a message in an arthritis >> >newsgroup from someone on statins--and yet they have the crippling >> >diseases. ~ >> >As you yourself have just shown, many with those diseases aren't aware >> >they can be caused or worsened by statin use. >> You do read English, don't you? >These patients AREN'T ON STATINS and >> never have been, and yet they're bedridden, in wheelchairs, on >> disability or unable to do routine daily activities because of >> autoimmune diseases. >You can prove that with each and every poster at the auto-immune >disorder newsgroups, and each and every person posting to smc who has >taken a statin (and been told their new onset, or worsening arthritis, >cannot possibly be caused by statins?) You cannot even prove statins >have not affected your own arthritis, as long as you continue taking >them. I don't begin to understand what you're saying. Is this a question you're asking me, or are you stating your assumptions leading to your restatement of the issue? BTW, what makes you think I have arthritis? >And even if you could how would that obviate that *some* people, as >these studies show, can have statin-induced auto-immune diseases. And >*some* of those will not recover. For if you are willing to accpept >that the *one* person who is the case study has recovered from that, >then you have de facto accepted this exists. As many have said here many times, no one argues that there are not *some* patients who have bad effects from statins. What I and others argue again is your two continual arguments, that statins almost invariably cause bad effects and that having bad diseases probably implies that the patient is on statins. Both of those are simply illogical. [Balance snipped to save endangered electrons] SignatureDon Kirkman > It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article > <1119993371.428133.28080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > -- > Don Kirkman According to PFIZER's physician prescribing information and several but not all Medline citations statins cause auto-immune disorders. Your argument is with Pfizer, not with me. Zee It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article <1120003052.597934.267250@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>: >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article >> <1119993371.428133.28080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>: >> >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article >> >> <1119919072.704977.293910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: >> >> >~Further, I don't think I've ever seen a message in an arthritis >> >> >newsgroup from someone on statins--and yet they have the crippling >> >> >diseases. ~ >> >> >As you yourself have just shown, many with those diseases aren't aware >> >> >they can be caused or worsened by statin use. Meaning "Where have I shown that many with diseases aren't aware of statin risks." That's your mantra, not mine. >> >These patients AREN'T ON STATINS and >> >> never have been, and yet they're bedridden, in wheelchairs, on >> >> disability or unable to do routine daily activities because of >> >> autoimmune diseases. >> >You can prove that with each and every poster at the auto-immune >> >disorder newsgroups, and each and every person posting to smc who has >> >taken a statin (and been told their new onset, or worsening arthritis, >> >cannot possibly be caused by statins?) You cannot even prove statins >> >have not affected your own arthritis, as long as you continue taking >> >them. >> I don't begin to understand what you're saying. Is this a question >> you're asking me, or are you stating your assumptions leading to your >> restatement of the issue? >> BTW, what makes you think I have arthritis? No response? >> >And even if you could how would that obviate that *some* people, as >> >these studies show, can have statin-induced auto-immune diseases. And >> >*some* of those will not recover. For if you are willing to accpept >> >that the *one* person who is the case study has recovered from that, >> >then you have de facto accepted this exists. >> As many have said here many times, no one argues that there are not >> *some* patients who have bad effects from statins. What I and others >> argue again is your two continual arguments, that statins almost >> invariably cause bad effects and that having bad diseases probably >> implies that the patient is on statins. Both of those are simply >> illogical. >According to PFIZER's physician prescribing information and several but >not all Medline citations statins cause auto-immune disorders. I asked YOU, not Pfizer, for citations. You gave me several, and I showed you that they don't support your contention. If Pfizer has published relevant information why didn't you include it with your other citations? >Your argument is with Pfizer, not with me. I have no quarrel with Pfizer, but it's obvious that you do. SignatureDon Kirkman > It seems to me I heard somewhere that outrider wrote in article > <1119993371.428133.28080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > [Balance snipped to save endangered electrons] Engaging zee is like trying to cup water in your hands. It constantly changes shape and eventually runs through your hand. All your left with is a wet hand. I think she's asking you to prove a negative, but who the heck really knows? L. "Is lactic acidosis an autoimmune disorder? " It is very interesting question to check possible link of autoimunity with LA. In some autoimmune type of anemias, High serum LDH is indicated. > "Is lactic acidosis an autoimmune disorder? " > > It is very interesting question to check possible link of autoimunity > with LA. In some autoimmune type of anemias, High serum LDH is > indicated. Interesting you should mention lactic acidosis Kumar. That too is being looked at with respect to STATIN adverse effects. Zee Furthur, It can also be an interesting thought that:- Can autoimunity be trigered by over-usage of any body system/substance--naturally, induced or medicated? Is it really justified to encourage & add more of any body's substance when it is already present in excess in system? Eg; Insulin resistance It seems to me I heard somewhere that zee wrote in article <1120010937.687780.247440@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: >> "Is lactic acidosis an autoimmune disorder? " >> It is very interesting question to check possible link of autoimunity >> with LA. In some autoimmune type of anemias, High serum LDH is >> indicated. >Interesting you should mention lactic acidosis Kumar. That too is being >looked at with respect to STATIN adverse effects. That was noted in my critique of your supplied citations; the point was that you were using that to support statin induction of *autoimmune* responses. Kumar may have a point, but the Google hits I looked at on LA didn't seem to me to involve autoimmune diseases. SignatureDon Kirkman We should look lactic acid very deeply under changed modern lifestyle & environment--if related to low oxygen intake or foods & stresses causing more gastric acidic conditions effecting breathing. There can be imbalances of LA in other body's sites than blood as accumulation or immobility of same. I think persistant chronic excesses of any immediate toxic "self" substance-- may trigger some autoimmunity--inherant or aquired. auto immune earts away immunity protects Can Autoimmunity Be a Positive Defense ~ ? Auto ~ Immune eats away, Immunity protects. Gnawed ~ Off paw, Self ~ Attack. Good fences, Good neighbors ~ ? Or privet hedge A hedge hog fudges ~ ? What body system can opt as last resort to protect the life, when any "senstive immediate toxic body substance" remains persistingly excess/imbalanced for long time or its expression is passed to next genarations? What body system can opt as last resort to protect the life, when any infective/self disease causing agent can't be handled by immune system on their exposures & so these go into latent conditions, tumor etc? Why can't it opt for some damge by autoimmunity--temporary or permanent to save life? bout LA, just consider "acidosis"effect by it? > We should look lactic acid very deeply under changed modern lifestyle & > environment--if related to low oxygen intake or foods & stresses > causing more gastric acidic conditions effecting breathing. "Low oxygen intake"? Are you suggesting that the environmental oxygen is low? And how the heck do you chain gastric acid levels to breathing, except to gasping from heartburn? Can't there can be "low oxygen intake" in polluted environment by shallow breathing? I think gastric acid levels may effect "breathing patterns". "Kumar may have a point, but the Google hits I looked at on LA didn't seem to me to involve autoimmune diseases." >The immune system and a host of enzyme catalysts can only perform maximally within an exceptionally narrow pH range.< Pls check "acidosis" resulted by lactic acid in tissues instead just lactic acid or pH imbalances as a possible reason for triggering autoimmunity. kumar schrieb: > However I have some doubts; whether so thought Autoimmunity is really a > "always harming disorder" of our system or Can also be a positive > natural defence mechanism of immune system Diabetics won't come down with the pest, but since the middle ages are already gone that doesn't sound like a compensation to me. Anja |
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