Medical Forum / General / General / June 2005
spin-doctored: how pharma reps control what drug you get
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zee - 05 Jun 2005 05:38 GMT Spin Doctored
By Shannon Brownlee and Jeanne Lenzer Posted Tuesday, May 31, 2005, at 3:13 AM PT
Doctors have long maintained that they are immune to the blandishments of drug companies. The lucrative consulting contracts, fancy meals, trips to exotic locales, free pens, flashlights, coffee mugs, and sticky notepads emblazoned with prescription-drug brand names-none of these are supposed to cloud a physician's clinical judgment. Doctors like to think they decide which treatments to order and which drugs to prescribe because of scientific evidence, not marketing.
But the companies think they know otherwise. Last week, five whistle-blowers from government and industry gathered in Washington, D.C., at a meeting sponsored by the online scientific journal PLoS and the Government Accountability Project to discuss the pharmaceutical industry. Among the attendees were Kathleen Slattery-Moschkau, a former drug company representative and independent filmmaker, and an unnamed drug company researcher. They detailed for the group how the companies and the reps know-right down to the pill-whether or not their sales pitches are working and how to improve them. The industry's semi-secret weapon is prescriber reports, weekly lists of every prescription written by each of the 600,000 doctors in the United States. Relatively few physicians know about prescriber reports, also known as prescriber profiles. But their existence makes it far more difficult to imagine that pharmaceutical marketing has no effect on the doctors it targets.
Prescriber reports became possible in the early 1990s. First, pharmacies began processing insurance claims by computer and peddling the data to the pharmaceutical industry and to clearinghouses, like IMS Health, which then sells information about the drug market. The pharmacy records don't include the names of patients or doctors: They are coded with physician ID numbers, which are issued by the Drug Enforcement Administration so that it can track controlled substances, like morphine. But drug companies and IMS can buy lists that match the DEA numbers to doctors' names from the federal government or the American Medical Association, which earns about $20 million a year selling its "physician master file" database. The master file contains personal and professional information about every doctor in the country, including their DEA numbers.
By putting together all of this information, the weekly prescriber reports can show the names of the doctors in a rep's territory and what each doctor prescribed and how much of it. Reports provide reps with up-to-date feedback on just how effective they've been in persuading their doctors to prescribe the two or three drugs each rep pitches. The reps are schooled for weeks in a variety of sales techniques. They memorize tightly crafted speeches and volumes of data on their products, and some are even trained in personality profiling, to help them guess whether a physician is more likely to respond to reams of scientific research or to schmoozing. Prescriber reports play a key role in helping reps boost sales-they're like weekly focus groups that help reps shape their pitches to individual doctors. If Doctor A increased her prescriptions after being treated to a facial and full-body massage, more expense-paid spa excursions are in order for her. If Doctor B didn't respond to a courtesy five-course meal, then maybe it's time to try football tickets, or up the free drug samples, or plug clinical research that touts the proffered drug's benefits.
Prescriber reports also allow reps to identify and target their top prescribers. The reports rank doctors into four tiers, based on how many scripts they write. Reps focus most of their energy on the upper ranks-the doctors who write hundreds of prescriptions per month. That's because a rep's bonus depends on increasing market share, the sales of his drugs in his territory compared with competing medications. Getting top prescribers to increase their prescriptions by even a few percentage points can give the rep that needed boost.
>From the companies' perspective, hard-sell tactics are simply good business. Pharmaceutical manufacturers spend hundreds of millions of dollars getting a single drug to market. Once it's there, they try to move as much product as possible before the drug reaches the end of its patent life, usually within a decade.
What's harder to understand is doctors' insistence that they're unmoved by the approximately $15 billion that drug companies spend annually on marketing (compared with $33 billion a year on research and development). Plenty of evidence shows that they're easy marks. Several published studies have found that doctors who rely on reps for their information have more expensive prescribing habits than those who stick to the medical journals. Besides raising costs, taking a company at its word about the merits of a drug can hurt patients. One study published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2001 revealed that patients who used the painkiller Vioxx were five times more likely to suffer a heart attack than users of the generic drug, naproxyn. Yet that year, Merck & Co., Vioxx's manufacturer, managed to make the drug's sales rise faster than the top 10 drugs in the industry, with revenues topping $2.6 billion. How did that happen? Merck documents submitted to Congress after Vioxx was withdrawn from the market last fall show that the company taught sales reps how to deflect doctors' questions about the painkiller's safety. The reps handed out "cardiology cards," pamphlets that used studies less powerful than the one in NEJM to make it look as if Vioxx was associated with fewer heart attacks rather than more. Merck code-named its marketing blitz "Offense" and "XXceleration."
Most physicians make "I'm OK, you're not" assumptions about their profession's susceptibility to such tactics. In one survey, 61 percent of the residents at the University of California, San Francisco Medical Center reported that they themselves are unmoved by drug company gifts. But when asked if they thought their colleagues were swayed, 84 percent said yes.
Perhaps revelations about prescriber reports will persuade doctors that they should think seriously about how hard they're being spun. Physicians who find out about the reports by word-of-mouth at medical conferences, or in the occasional medical journal article, often say they feel their privacy is being invaded. They worry that the pharmaceutical industry's extensive data collection violates doctor-patient confidentiality (though they can't say precisely how, since patient names are not included in the reports). Some have booted drug reps from their offices when they've learned of the reports. "Telling your doctors how much you really know can be the kiss of death," said Slattery-Moshkau, the former drug rep whose indie film Side Effects is about her decade in the business. Maybe what's most disturbing to physicians is that the prescriber reports make it hard to go on pretending that science always trumps marketing.
Shannon Brownlee is a Schwartz senior fellow at the New America Foundation. Her e-mail address is brownlee (at)newamerica.net. Jeanne Lenzer is a freelancer whose work appears regularly in the medical journal BMJ. Her e-mail address is jeanne.lenzer (at) gmail.com.
Article URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2119712/
Robert - 05 Jun 2005 07:57 GMT > Spin Doctored > > By Shannon Brownlee and Jeanne Lenzer > Posted Tuesday, May 31, 2005, at 3:13 AM PT Good article. I am glad they cleaned all that up with good reporting. Heads will roll and many changes will take place. Drugs will be made much safer.
William Wagner - 05 Jun 2005 16:38 GMT > > Spin Doctored > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Heads will roll and many changes will take place. > Drugs will be made much safer. Seemed on topic. Bill
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http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/11816015.htm
................................................... Threats to critics of Vioxx alleged
Academics and doctors who spoke against the drug, which was recalled later, say a Merck executive leaned on them.
By Thomas Ginsberg
Inquirer Staff Writer
One day in 2000 after lecturing about risks of the pain-reliever Vioxx, Harvard University professor Lee Simon got a call that shocked him. It was from Louis M. Sherwood, then a senior vice president at Merck & Co. Inc., maker of Vioxx. Based in West Point, Montgomery County, Sherwood challenged Simon's view - later proved correct - that Vioxx could cause more strokes than a rival drug. Sherwood didn't stop there. He said "he would hurt my career if I continued to lecture," Simon recalled. "I was astonished." Sherwood's warning, said Simon and others allegedly also threatened, went beyond anything they had experienced before from drug companies trying to woo researchers and physicians to endorse and prescribe their products. Today, Sherwood, 68, of Lower Gwynedd, is a figure in the worldwide legal fallout over Vioxx, the blockbuster drug whose recall rattled the industry and raised questions about drug regulation and safety. Sherwood, an esteemed administrator and community benefactor, declined to be interviewed for this article. He and his role in the Vioxx saga provide a glimpse into the hard-nosed scientific debates and financial tensions with academia that can arise when a drugmaker sets its sights on huge profit. Merck voluntarily recalled Vioxx on Sept. 30 after its own studies confirmed Vioxx's risks. Now the company faces thousands of lawsuits. Internal documents and e-mails submitted in one New Jersey fraud case show how Merck systematically tried to win over drug experts before and after Vioxx was launched in 1999. While many drug companies undertake such efforts, the lawsuit alleges that Merck executives, including Sherwood, sought to "silence and intimidate critics of Vioxx" by questioning their objectivity, withdrawing their funding, or both. Merck in court has defended its actions. In a statement, it denied intentional wrongdoing. "We do not have and have never had the intent to intimidate nor retaliate," Merck said. "Consistent with [the] spirit of scientific debate, we believe we have the right to express our views when we believe information others have presented is not fair and balanced." But outside researchers interviewed by The Inquirer said Merck had privately acknowledged to them that Sherwood and others acted improperly and had tried to distance itself from their tactics, evidently hoping to repair relations with experts whose assessments were key to Vioxx sales. Sherwood's lawyer, Mark A. Berman, said Sherwood "did not set out to intimidate other doctors. He was a vigorous advocate for Merck and for full, open and balanced discussion of the issues." Berman declined to comment on Merck's effort to distance itself from Sherwood's tactics. Sherwood's Vioxx work, and Merck's subsequent apology for it, still mystifies some researchers about the man respected in both industry and academia. "I always thought Lou was the epitome of an upstanding guy, smart and well-respected," said Simon, who said he lost a promotion and left Harvard after Sherwood called his superior. "It was pretty amazing. I had never heard of a company doing that before." Louis Maier Sherwood, born in New York City during the Depression, spent 26 years in academia before moving to suburban Philadelphia in 1987 to work at Merck, then the world's biggest drugmaker. People in academia sometimes deride industry as "the dark side" because of its financial motives. Sherwood earned accolades from both worlds: At retirement in March 2002, he was given two lifetime achievement awards, one from industry physicians and one from medical-school professors. "He is dedicated to the community, to his synagogue, and is very charitable," said Roberta Matz, director of the Bucks-Montgomery region of the Jewish Federation of Greater Philadelphia, on whose board Sherwood serves. In 1998, Merck's then-chief executive Raymond V. Gilmartin made a personal appearance at a Boston ceremony honoring Sherwood, saying: "We are fortunate and proud that you are with us at Merck," according to a text of the speech. As senior vice president for medical and scientific affairs, Sherwood was, among other things, liaison to the nation's researchers and physicians, who can make or break a drug by recommending or rejecting it for patients and insurance-benefit plans. From his office in Building 39 on Merck's West Point campus, Sherwood regularly communicated with many people in the medical community about dozens of Merck products, with no sign of controversy like the one around Vioxx. € To cultivate experts for their products, drug companies often donate to medical schools, finance research, and sponsor conferences, in addition to paying for clinical trials. Each institution has its own guidelines on whether to accept such financial support. Companies dangle or withdraw the money at any time, but using it expressly to influence a researcher's opinion is considered by academicians a violation of open scientific debate. In this environment, Merck and G.D. Searle & Co. - later acquired by Pfizer Inc. - went to battle in 1999 over the multibillion-dollar market in pain relievers called Cox-2 inhibitors. Corporate money quickly tinged the scientific debate by casting researchers as protagonists for one product or another. Vioxx and Celebrex, a Cox-2 inhibitor that is still on the market, were designed to cause fewer stomach problems than traditional pain-relievers. But after a flurry of positive studies, some researchers began expressing concern that Vioxx could cause cardiovascular, hypertension or kidney problems, and wanted more data from Merck. One skeptic was M. Thomas Stillman, a professor at University of Minnesota Medical School and a director at the Hennepin County Medical Center. He had questioned Vioxx's safety at conferences sponsored by Pfizer, Merck and others. In one e-mail, a Merck sales executive described Stillman as a "vocal adversary of Merck and Vioxx" who was stifling sales in Minnesota. Sherwood and his staff tried in vain to change Stillman's mind. In a June 2000 memo, Sherwood told other Merck executives that he had complained to Stillman's boss. The same month, according to a separate letter, Sherwood persuaded the Minneapolis VA Medical Center to remove Stillman's "unfavorable" review of Vioxx from educational programs. In response, Stillman wrote Sherwood and accused Merck of "inappropriate censorship" by withdrawing funding for some of his presentations. Two years later, after Sherwood retired, his successor, John Yates, called to apologize. "He said it could've been better handled," Stillman recalled. "Then one or two Merck people actually came out and apologized." Yates, now president of global research and development at Takeda Pharmaceuticals North America Inc. in Chicago, declined to be interviewed. Simon, the former Harvard professor who had received consulting and speaking fees from both Merck and Searle, said Sherwood called him and his boss alleging he was biased against Vioxx - an assertion Simon denied. "No specific action was taken against me. But there was a reputational issue," said Simon, who moved to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and now works at the Boston-based consulting firm MEDACorp. His boss at Harvard, Steven Weinberger, now a vice president at the American College of Physicians in Philadelphia, confirmed getting Sherwood's call but said it "had nothing to do" with Simon's promotion. "Lou Sherwood was not at all threatening me," Weinberger said, adding that he had skipped over Simon because of unrelated questions about his record running the school's graduate medical-education program. Nonetheless, Yates contacted Simon in 2002 and said Sherwood's behavior "would never happen again, that it was unnecessary, that it was not the behavior of Merck," according to Simon. Gurkirpal Singh, an arthritis expert at Stanford University, who had received funds from both Merck and Pfizer, had raised questions in lectures about Vioxx and suggested data was being hidden. On Oct. 4, 2000, a Merck memo to Sherwood listed Singh's presentations and background, beginning with the line: "Perceived as an advocate for Searle." It was a description Singh rejected in an interview. The memo also said Merck, in reaction, barred Singh from Merck-sponsored conferences in the western United States, leading to conference cancellations. Three weeks later, Sherwood telephoned Stanford professor James F. Fries - Singh's boss - at home. Sherwood said Singh was "anti-Vioxx" and "suggested that if this continued, Dr. Singh would 'flame out,' and there would be consequences for myself and for Stanford," according to a letter Fries later wrote to Merck. In an interview, Fries, who noted he takes no money from drug companies, said he interpreted Sherwood's call as "a veiled threat. There wasn't anything he could do to me personally, although I suppose there may be funding" from Merck to Stanford. The Stanford medical school confirmed it has received Merck money. In January 2001, Fries sent a four-page letter to Gilmartin citing Sherwood and accusing Merck of using "damage-control by intimidation." He cited Singh, Simon and Stillman and five other researchers. Two of them, former Arthritis Institute director Peter Lipsky and Johns Hopkins University professor Andrew Whelton, said in interviews that they had heard of Merck complaints about their work, but had never felt threatened nor had gotten calls from Sherwood. Three did not respond to interview requests. Responding to the letter, Gilmartin told Fries he took the charges seriously and had ordered officials to "look into the situation," Fries recalled. Within days, Fries got a call from David Anstice, then president of Merck's Human Health-Americas division in West Point. Anstice characterized the flap as a "loose-cannon issue" that was not the norm at Merck and promised to take action, according to Fries' paraphrasing of their conversation. Later, Singh said Anstice took him to dinner during a conference in California and tried to disavow Sherwood's actions. Anstice said he "was not aware of Sherwood doing these things, because he was a senior person and didn't know what everybody did," Singh recalled. "He said he would have stopped it if he knew. And then he did stop it." Anstice declined to be interviewed. He also has been named in the lawsuits. Sherwood never contacted the researchers or their bosses again, they said.
Contact staff writer Thomas Ginsberg at 215-854-4177 or tginsberg@phillynews.com.
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zee - 05 Jun 2005 17:09 GMT > > > Spin Doctored > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Seemed on topic. Bill This man is very courageous as are all the 'whistleblowers'. I would urge everyone who thinks so to let them know, by letters to the editor, and personal e-mails to the reporters asking them to pass it on.
In the United States, and in Canada, they are not being protected by the law, are losing their jobs when they speak out, and are the victim of smear campaigns by pharma. There is one going on right now over Dr. Nancy Olivieri in Canada. She refused to hide deadly information in a clinical trial for which she was PI.
"He said "he would hurt my career if I continued to lecture," Simon recalled. "I was astonished."
Zee
> .......................... > [quoted text clipped - 196 lines] > Long -75.0246 Lat 39.637876 > Enjoy http://terrafly.fiu.edu/ William Wagner - 05 Jun 2005 22:41 GMT > > In article <wvmdnaYhWdHhPz fRVn-uQ@got.net>, > > [quoted text clipped - 226 lines] > > Long -75.0246 Lat 39.637876 > > Enjoy http://terrafly.fiu.edu/ Nothing like a little personal touch. Ethics be damned. I wonder how long this stuff will continue before balance is called for?
Meanwhile protect you and yours and strangers too. If Harvard is under pressure we all are.
Bill
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Sharon Hope - 06 Jun 2005 03:00 GMT The worst is that these companies are playing exactly by the rules. The playing field is set up in a way that if they don't resort to these tactics they will likely face stockholder suits.
Congress (and other governments' lawmakers accordingly) need to set it straight by taking a systemic approach.
1) FDA needs to answer to the people, not the industry. Currently drug company "user fees" fund the majority of their budget. User fees are actually a percentage cut of the drug sales that goes to the FDA. Originally Congress put this in as a 'bonus' to offset the cost of the drug approval cycle, but then Congress slowly chipped away at all other funding, so now the FDA is in a position of cutting its own budget and risking closing its doors if it takes a strong action against a popular drug. This is a stupid position for them to be in, but it is where they are. Thus, anyone with illusions that FDA will work for drug safety for the people is expecting them to voluntarily close their doors in the name of safety. Small chance of any government agency doing so.
2) NIH needs to have an ethics policy imposed on it from outside. The principal investigators considering a new drug's approval should no longer be able to accept 300% of their government pay, plus trips, perks, and stock options, at all, much less without reporting it. The NIH has been debating internally for years on whether to change the ethics policy back to what it was prior to the Clinton administration, but so far it is too little too late. Congress needs to apply an ethics policy across government (and include lawmakers).
3) ALL the data collected in the course of getting a drug to approval MUST become public property. Right now, it is supposed to, but if the company says they are thinking about how they might want to publish something that uses it at some undetermined date in the future, that data is unavailable. It must become publicly available so that other researchers can use it for data mining. Proprietary? Fine, the company doesn't need to disclose it as long as they don't want to sell the drug to the public. Keep it all private in that case. BUT, if the public is fed the drug, the public gets ALL data collected in research and testing.
4) ALL the data collected in the course of a public study MUST become public property. Fine, let a private journal publish the findings, but the source data - all that collected, whether it is used in the publication or omitted - must become available publicly so that other researchers can use it for data mining.
5) Copyrights for medical journal articles should be shortened so that the full-text publications are available to the public within one year of publication.
6) The government should offer an alternative means for web-based publication on a government website for research that has been conducted with any public funding. Thus enabling a researcher to publish findings that might be negative to a 'blockbuster' drug and therefore difficult to obtain a jury of peers approval for private publication (no illusions that drug companies haven't packed the journal juries). If it wasn't selected for publication by a major journal because it was shoddy work, so what? Bits are cheap and the readers of the free publication website can make their own determination - and the source data would be publically available for those who would like to draw different conclusions. Journals have been publishing industry spin for years (per full journals published by JAMA and BMJ, each saying they had been too lax in detecting industry bias), it is about time that the 'blocked' publications be made public.
7) Adverse events reporting and DETECTION needs to be emhasized far more in drug trials. On the theory that you don't find what you are not looking for, there needs to be a formal checklist that is applied to every single drug whereby they collect data on each item on the list. They don't need to use it in their published study results, because it is publicly available, but they must look, test and record for adverse effects in every area of the body and behavior. (e.g., heart, CV, nerve, cognitive, memory, stamina, allergen, etc. etc. etc.)
8) Further, since genetic testing is getting cheaper and cheaper, studies should have a standardized mandatory collection of the pertinent genetic profile (e.g., drug elimination) of the study subjects as a part of every test result data, publicly available. Data mining of this public data would lead to the ability to predict which patients are likely to suffer adverse effects, and which are not, PRIOR to doing damage.
I'm sure there are more, but this would be a good start.
Please feel free to add to the list.
>> > In article <wvmdnaYhWdHhPz fRVn-uQ@got.net>, >> > >> > > > Spin Doctored <snip>
> Meanwhile protect you and yours and strangers too. If Harvard is > under pressure we all are. > > Bill William Wagner - 06 Jun 2005 11:36 GMT > The worst is that these companies are playing exactly by the rules. The > playing field is set up in a way that if they don't resort to these tactics [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > Please feel free to add to the list. 9) The Surgeon General to have the financial means to monitor and effect the pervious eight directives.
Bill
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elgoog - 06 Jun 2005 14:34 GMT > The worst is that these companies are playing exactly by the rules. The > playing field is set up in a way that if they don't resort to these tactics [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > expecting them to voluntarily close their doors in the name of safety. > Small chance of any government agency doing so. I think it is appropriate that the FDA be funded through industry fees. You have not demonstrated to my satisfaction that industry fees corrupt the FDA.
> 2) NIH needs to have an ethics policy imposed on it from outside. The > principal investigators considering a new drug's approval should no longer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > late. Congress needs to apply an ethics policy across government (and > include lawmakers). I need a clarification on this. NIH employees are required to report all gifts regardless of size. Grant fund recipients on the other hand are required to report gifts in excess of $1,000 to the issuing agency. Can you elucidate on the problem, or provide me a reference for me to research?
> 3) ALL the data collected in the course of getting a drug to approval MUST > become public property. Right now, it is supposed to, but if the company [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in that case. BUT, if the public is fed the drug, the public gets ALL data > collected in research and testing. I agree there is a problem with disclosure and the protection of intellectual property. It is a fine line that companies walk in an attempt to protect their intellectual property and comply with disclosure rules. Perhaps, the rules should be changed to either require all data be handed over to the FDA, or stricter enforcement of intellectual property theft along with better public disclosure. Unfortunately, the means of disclosure remains in the hands of the disclosing entity.
> 4) ALL the data collected in the course of a public study MUST become public > property. Fine, let a private journal publish the findings, but the source > data - all that collected, whether it is used in the publication or > omitted - must become available publicly so that other researchers can use > it for data mining. Post hoc data mining yields questionable results. In fact, the allegation is that the industry uses data mining to only release data they find to be favorable. Releasing all data is both a problem of editing, and a problem of enforcement. It seems it would be virtually unenforcable.
> 5) Copyrights for medical journal articles should be shortened so that the > full-text publications are available to the public within one year of > publication. My initial reaction is that being an author, I could not possibly support shortening of the copyright - that's my property. OTOH, perhaps you are suggesting a different copyright law specifically for scientific or medical data. I don't know how one would make the distinction, nor why scientists rights to their intellectual property should have less protection than a gangsta rapper.
> 6) The government should offer an alternative means for web-based > publication on a government website for research that has been conducted [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > BMJ, each saying they had been too lax in detecting industry bias), it is > about time that the 'blocked' publications be made public. This is an interesting and creative idea. Of course, the amount of data would be huge and one would have difficulty in mining it, or finding worthwhile information. But, this idea certainly merits further study.
> 7) Adverse events reporting and DETECTION needs to be emhasized far more in > drug trials. On the theory that you don't find what you are not looking [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > body and behavior. (e.g., heart, CV, nerve, cognitive, memory, stamina, > allergen, etc. etc. etc.) First of all, there are checklists and guidelines and regulations out the wazoo. The adverse effects and drug interactions to be studied must be focused and narrowed according to predictive modeling of the chemical composition. It is simply overwhelming to study every possible side effect, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera (so to speak).
> 8) Further, since genetic testing is getting cheaper and cheaper, studies > should have a standardized mandatory collection of the pertinent genetic > profile (e.g., drug elimination) of the study subjects as a part of every > test result data, publicly available. Data mining of this public data would > lead to the ability to predict which patients are likely to suffer adverse > effects, and which are not, PRIOR to doing damage. Another good suggestion that merits some thought. To a certain extent, this is done, but much more is possible. It seems a matter of ethics and it should be done to protect people. OTOH, it goes back to my understanding of number 7 and the ethical polemic of placebo testing as well, where a valid study may actually harm participants.
> I'm sure there are more, but this would be a good start. > > Please feel free to add to the list. <<snip>>
It's a good start. -elgoog
Robert - 06 Jun 2005 19:57 GMT > > The worst is that these companies are playing exactly by the rules. The > > playing field is set up in a way that if they don't resort to these tactics [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You have not demonstrated to my satisfaction that industry fees corrupt > the FDA. Problem there is not the FDA will never, ever, have any money near the amount that private industry will have. They can not compete.
> > 2) NIH needs to have an ethics policy imposed on it from outside. The > > principal investigators considering a new drug's approval should no longer [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Can you elucidate on the problem, or provide me a reference for me to > research? Cosmetic change that looks good on paper.
> > 3) ALL the data collected in the course of getting a drug to approval MUST > > become public property. Right now, it is supposed to, but if the company [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Unfortunately, the means of disclosure remains in the hands of the > disclosing entity. That is private property unless you want to not make it private property and make it all public meaning government take over of the pharm industry. Never happen. It doesn't work that way in other global competition for business. American companies would be put at a disadvantage by disclosures on projects at hand. Government which is dependent on income from jobs will never cripple the free interprise private corporations that provide jobs.
> > 4) ALL the data collected in the course of a public study MUST become public > > property. Fine, let a private journal publish the findings, but the source [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > editing, and a problem of enforcement. It seems it would be virtually > unenforcable. Bad findings which cost millions of dollares to perform can save competitiors millions of dollares and thus provide them with an advantage. What advantage does it give the company who does that investment only to make it public? I think the basic premise in all of these changes makes it clear that they don't want private companies to develop drugs. That will never change.
> > 5) Copyrights for medical journal articles should be shortened so that the > > full-text publications are available to the public within one year of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > distinction, nor why scientists rights to their intellectual property > should have less protection than a gangsta rapper. It's plain the direction all of these changes are going in and it doesn't really fool anyone.
> > 6) The government should offer an alternative means for web-based > > publication on a government website for research that has been conducted [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > would be huge and one would have difficulty in mining it, or finding > worthwhile information. But, this idea certainly merits further study. So by doing this you will detect industry bias and not get a drug developed? Ok do it and then the bias will take on a different form. It is like changing the income tax laws and closing loop-holes. I think that private drug companies can buy any lawyers or follow any rules because of the money they have compared to the money the people in charge of checking does.
> > 7) Adverse events reporting and DETECTION needs to be emhasized far more in > > drug trials. On the theory that you don't find what you are not looking [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > chemical composition. It is simply overwhelming to study every possible > side effect, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera (so to speak). The numbers involved and the type of conditions like heart valve damage can take years to develop and so the number of people studied is usually small compare to the number of people that will eventually take it and the time study is short compared to how long the patient will eventually take it. Put a patient on blood pressure medicine for 20 years, and he gets a rare disorder, you can never really pick that up in a 12 month study.
> > 8) Further, since genetic testing is getting cheaper and cheaper, studies > > should have a standardized mandatory collection of the pertinent genetic [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > understanding of number 7 and the ethical polemic of placebo testing as > well, where a valid study may actually harm participants. I think she is referring to rapid or slow metabolizers but that is quite new and to incorporate that into the drug process is not very practical. It is more practical to test the patient in which that patient can carry that information with him. Pharm kentics of a general nature are already done which take into account a general population.
> > I'm sure there are more, but this would be a good start. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It's a good start. > -elgoog Most are cosmetic. The crippling of corporate interests by government will never happen. NIH gives for free it's findings to the private sector in order for them to develop.
elgoog - 06 Jun 2005 20:32 GMT > > > The worst is that these companies are playing exactly by the rules. The > > > playing field is set up in a way that if they don't resort to these [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Problem there is not the FDA will never, ever, have any money near the > amount that private industry will have. They can not compete. I totally miss your point here, Robert. Why is it a problem that industry out spends the FDA?
> > > 2) NIH needs to have an ethics policy imposed on it from outside. The > > > principal investigators considering a new drug's approval should no [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Government which is dependent on income from jobs will never cripple the > free interprise private corporations that provide jobs. If you are saying that the govenment has no right to private (in this case, intellectual) property, then I agree; unless, the intellectual property is created with government funds.
> > > 4) ALL the data collected in the course of a public study MUST become > public [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I think the basic premise in all of these changes makes it clear that they > don't want private companies to develop drugs. That will never change. It won't work because you cannot force public disclosure. Disclosure is unenforcable due to it's nature: it requires voluntary release of data.
> > > 5) Copyrights for medical journal articles should be shortened so that > the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It's plain the direction all of these changes are going in and it doesn't > really fool anyone. Are you saying I have been fooled? Where do you think it is going? State-ownership?
> > > 6) The government should offer an alternative means for web-based > > > publication on a government website for research that has been conducted [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > because of the money they have compared to the money the people in charge of > checking does. There is so much information as to make it impractical.
> > > 7) Adverse events reporting and DETECTION needs to be emhasized far more > in [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Put a patient on blood pressure medicine for 20 years, and he gets a rare > disorder, you can never really pick that up in a 12 month study. Another tough ethical problem is making the decision to delay general release pending long term studies, that may be depriving people who could benefit now.
> > > 8) Further, since genetic testing is getting cheaper and cheaper, > studies [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > more practical to test the patient in which that patient can carry that > information with him. I think you are right.
> Pharm kentics of a general nature are already done which take into account a > general population. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > never happen. NIH gives for free it's findings to the private sector in > order for them to develop. Corporations would pick up their marbles and move overseas before capitulating to overly intrusive governmental regulation. They would play the game of making the best Rx available overseas while delaying release in the U.S. indefinitely (or, at least until profits are assured and risks are mitigated).
I should have said that it is a good start at beginning a dialogue.
-elgoog
William Wagner - 06 Jun 2005 21:14 GMT Small flower
No defense
Yet we know
Amazing
...........
Bill
 Signature Garden in shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA Long -75.0246 Lat 39.637876
elgoog - 06 Jun 2005 22:51 GMT > Small flower > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Garden in shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA > Long -75.0246 Lat 39.637876 Growing mind
Still to find
What to know
Enigma
..........
-elgoog
William Wagner - 06 Jun 2005 23:12 GMT > > Small flower > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > -elgoog Red snapper with fennel Too much onion perhaps Still moist at 350 1.5 hour later
Wonder if my family enjoys tonight ?
Bill
Bill
 Signature Garden in shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA Long -75.0246 Lat 39.637876 "There are no significant bugs in our released software that any significant number of users want fixed." Bill Gates
Robert - 07 Jun 2005 08:51 GMT > > Problem there is not the FDA will never, ever, have any money near the > > amount that private industry will have. They can not compete. > > I totally miss your point here, Robert. Why is it a problem that > industry out spends the FDA? There really isn't any oversight by FDA. It is a rubber stamp based on private corporate studies. There is no independent studies so no matter what paper requirments the FDA needs the private industry can provide it with the money they have. Both parties know this. As you state though that really isn't the problem. Any bad drug will be exposed sooner or later with or without FDA foresight. Lawsuits will be filed and drugs withdrawn. The balance is achieved through the courts and not through the FDA.
> > That is private property unless you want to not make it private property and > > make it all public meaning government take over of the pharm industry. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > case, intellectual) property, then I agree; unless, the intellectual > property is created with government funds. The intellectual property is created by government and handed over to private companies free of charge. The US government is not a private corporation. It is not run like a private corporation. If government funds are used can you sue the government if the venture goes bad. If Vioxx, a drug created in Canada, and assume it was government funded using your example, fast tracked approval by the Canadian government for release to the public and later to be found flawed. Why would an individual not be able to sue the government?
elgoog - 07 Jun 2005 13:06 GMT > > > Problem there is not the FDA will never, ever, have any money near the > > > amount that private industry will have. They can not compete. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Lawsuits will be filed and drugs withdrawn. The balance is achieved through > the courts and not through the FDA. This is the argument is used by some as a rationale to abolish the FDA. It seems you use the same argument to increase funding for the FDA in order to allow the FDA to perform it's own studies.
I think the FDA's appropriate role is to review and approve/disapprove studies prior to allowing release to the public. The FDA functions as the quality control unit for new drugs, not as the testing, manufacturing, research or quality assurance unit. Their role comes into play only after studies, research, testing and QA are completed.
The government does provide funding for studies through other agencies, NIH for one.
> > > That is private property unless you want to not make it private property > and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If government funds are used can you sue the government if the venture goes > bad. So, it is a good thing that the FDA does not perform it's own studies, but rather serves as a review board; otherwise, consumers would be left with no recourse through the courts. FDA funding does not need to increase to match private industry, because allowing the FDA to perform it's own safety studies would remove the liability from the private corporation and deny the citizen legal recourse.
> If Vioxx, a drug created in Canada, and assume it was government funded > using your example, fast tracked approval by the Canadian government for > release to the public and later to be found flawed. > Why would an individual not be able to sue the government? I am not sure whether this question is a legal question, or a moral question. I assume that your question is on moral grounds and that the legal question is understood. If a person were allowed to sue the federal government, then the federal government would be hampered from performing it's function. Seditionists would have a new tool with which to hobble governments and take society hostage. The modern role of government is not one of industrial production, but one of legislation, enforcement, oversight. Where government requires additional services, it is to contract with private industry to perform those services - Even as government continues to grow, this is the model, outsourcing, that is being followed - I speak as an observer, not as an advocate.
Now, back to your moral question, is there a reason the federal government cannot be sued through civil litigation? I don't think there is any moral argument beyond the privilige of government to protect itself and by extension the citizens who always pay the price of government correction through taxes.
Robert - 07 Jun 2005 19:34 GMT > > > > Problem there is not the FDA will never, ever, have any money near the > > > > amount that private industry will have. They can not compete. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I think the FDA's appropriate role is to review and approve/disapprove They have no money to disprove by doing studies on their own. All they can do is a paper review based on what the company provides to them. If they company does not want to provide AE involving a drug the FDA will never know.
> studies prior to allowing release to the public. The FDA functions as > the quality control unit for new drugs, not as the testing, > manufacturing, research or quality assurance unit. Their role comes > into play only after studies, research, testing and QA are completed. They are not "the quality control unit" for new drugs. They rely on the company for all that.
> The government does provide funding for studies through other agencies, > NIH for one. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > it's own safety studies would remove the liability from the private > corporation and deny the citizen legal recourse. Exactly. There is a catch 22 with government involvment. That would be a conflict of interest. Look at vaccines. The government got involved and you can not sue some of the vaccine manufacturers. The private companies said they don't want to make vaccines because of lawsuites and the government said they need them so they passed tort reform. Does that make the vaccines more safe or less safe?
> > If Vioxx, a drug created in Canada, and assume it was government funded > > using your example, fast tracked approval by the Canadian government for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Even as government continues to grow, this is the model, outsourcing, > that is being followed - I speak as an observer, not as an advocate. The queston is why would the Canadian government put such a drug on fast tract approval? These are not HIV or life threatening conditions.
> Now, back to your moral question, is there a reason the federal > government cannot be sued through civil litigation? I don't think there > is any moral argument beyond the privilige of government to protect > itself and by extension the citizens who always pay the price of > government correction through taxes. The moral question can be reduced to this. The government does not answer to the individual but to the nation as a whole. National interest over individual interest. It is the courts that address individual interests. All government has to do is pass a law to erase individual recourse. I would rather have oversight by the courts than by government.
zee - 07 Jun 2005 19:52 GMT > > > > > Problem there is not the FDA will never, ever, have any money near > the [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > individual recourse. > I would rather have oversight by the courts than by government. Robert
You have made a couple statements regarding Vioxx for which I would very much appreciate clarification. You have said:
~~the Canadian government fastracked Vioxx ~~Vioxx is available cheaply in Canada
This is very serious, and something my health policy advocacy group should raise with Health Canada when we meet with them in September.
Could I have citations for these statements please?
Zee
Robert - 08 Jun 2005 07:16 GMT > You have made a couple statements regarding Vioxx for which I would > very much appreciate clarification. You have said: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Zee Several sources that Canada fast tracked the drugs. Just do a google.
Heres one from CMAJ
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/172/1/5
Another here about fast track
"The new medication, which received fast-track review by Health Canada, has been approved in 22 other countries including the US, where it is now the fastest growing prescription arthritis medicine with more than 2.2 million prescriptions since its approval in May. This makes it one of the most successful product introductions in the pharmaceutical industry's history in that country."
"We believe that Canadian-discovered Vioxx offers a potentially better and a more precise pathway to arthritis pain relief and lower risk of serious gastrointestinal side effects," said Dr. Robert Young, vice-president, Medicinal Chemistry. Vioxx works by inhibiting an enzyme called cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2) that is considered one of the causes of arthritis pain and inflammation without blocking cyclooxygenase-1 (COX-1), a related enzyme that produces prostaglandins which are critical in protecting the lining of the stomach and for normal platelet function. It will be available in Canada by prescription mid-November, 1999."
http://www.docguide.com/dg.nsf/PrintPrint/2C6B945C1F5EAA508525681F004D0FFF
As far as price you can get it 75% cheaper than in the US
http://www.canadadrugstop.com/drugdetail.php?keyword=Vioxx
There really isn't much to dispute.
zee - 08 Jun 2005 21:50 GMT The original approval and "fast tracking" was done by the FDA in the United States.
Rushing the drug onto market did not originate in Canada (which is a problem, but altogether a different problem).
You cannot get Vioxx cheaply (or expensively) anywhere in Canada.
Vioxx was recalled in fall 2004.
Zee
Robert - 09 Jun 2005 07:42 GMT > The original approval and "fast tracking" was done by the FDA in the > United States. > > Rushing the drug onto market did not originate in Canada (which is a > problem, but altogether a different problem). ""The new medication, which received fast-track review by Health Canada".
You are saying that Health Canada and the FDA are one and the same?
> You cannot get Vioxx cheaply (or expensively) anywhere in Canada. > > Vioxx was recalled in fall 2004. > > Zee Up until it's recall it was 75% cheaper up there and all drugs present, past and future are cheaper in Canada. So I don't know what your point is.
elgoog - 07 Jun 2005 20:04 GMT > > > > > Problem there is not the FDA will never, ever, have any money near > the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > company does not want to provide AE involving a drug the FDA will never > know. I said "disapprove," you say, "disprove." This is not the same. I agree that it is beyond their ability to disprove with their own studies. The FDA only knows what is released to them, but a company that intentionally hides information is open to their own risks. I think we agree that the system is not perfect.
> > studies prior to allowing release to the public. The FDA functions as > > the quality control unit for new drugs, not as the testing, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > They are not "the quality control unit" for new drugs. They rely on the > company for all that. You are correct. The comparison I made is incorrect.
> > The government does provide funding for studies through other agencies, > > NIH for one. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > make vaccines because of lawsuites and the government said they need them so > they passed tort reform. An example of the system working, albeit laboriously, but in the end functioning.
> Does that make the vaccines more safe or less safe? A rhetorical question.
> > > If Vioxx, a drug created in Canada, and assume it was government funded > > > using your example, fast tracked approval by the Canadian government for [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > The queston is why would the Canadian government put such a drug on fast > tract approval? These are not HIV or life threatening conditions. I frankly don't know what motivated the Canadian agency to fast tract Vioxx. Do you?
> > Now, back to your moral question, is there a reason the federal > > government cannot be sued through civil litigation? I don't think there [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > individual recourse. > I would rather have oversight by the courts than by government. I agree with your overall meaning, but would split hairs on the question of the role of government in protecting individual interests. I view the courts as a branch of government, not as a separate body. The government does pass laws to protect the individual, ADA for example, and many others. National interests can mean a lot of things and usually include the protection of individual rights.
I feel we have found much common ground, but are no closer to any agreement on reforms to the FDA, government's specific role in the drug safety, manufacture or testing. Any suggestions?
-elgoog
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 07 Jun 2005 22:01 GMT >>I feel we have found much common ground, but are no closer to any agreement on reforms to the FDA, government's specific role in the drug
safety, manufacture or testing. Any suggestions? <<
COMMENT:
Yes. Limit FDA's role to the one it had before 1963, which was primarily to keep tabs on the safety and purity of foods and drugs. For drugs, this meant primarily looking at toxicity and side-effect data. If a company wanted to market a very toxic and nasty drug (for example a chemotherapeutic agent) only then would they need to present efficacy data, in order to argue thta benefits outweighed risks. Otherwise, companies should be able to market a reasonably non-toxic drug and let the market and scientific community decide questions of whether it works on disease, or not. FDA would be free to require makers to put a label on the bottle in the meantime, stating that the FDA had made no efficacy determinations for the drug. In such cases, doctors would be free not to prescribe it, and patients not to use it. Much as happens with products that aren't approved by non-government testing labs today, such as URL.
SBH
elgoog - 07 Jun 2005 22:39 GMT > >>I feel we have found much common ground, but are no closer to any > agreement on reforms to the FDA, government's specific role in the drug [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > SBH You probably can't see me, but I am nodding my head in agreement.
-elgoog
zee - 07 Jun 2005 22:47 GMT > >>I feel we have found much common ground, but are no closer to any > agreement on reforms to the FDA, government's specific role in the drug [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > SBH I'm not sure what you mean by "...and the patients not to use it." Is that not the case now?
How would this play out with drugs like statins which have proven to be very toxic to a segment of users (for whom the drugs probably should not have been prescribed)?
And what is URL?
Zee
elgoog - 07 Jun 2005 22:55 GMT > > >>I feel we have found much common ground, but are no closer to any > > agreement on reforms to the FDA, government's specific role in the drug [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I'm not sure what you mean by "...and the patients not to use it." Is > that not the case now? Yep. A true buyer beware market, any security is purely imaginary.
> How would this play out with drugs like statins which have proven to be > very toxic to a segment of users (for whom the drugs probably should > not have been prescribed)? It wouldn't be very different than it is today.
> And what is URL? I assumed he meant UL - Underwriter's Laboratories, ul.com.
-elgoog
zee - 07 Jun 2005 23:06 GMT Ahhh. Agreed, security is imaginary. But some feel they have the right to sue when it hasn't been delivered. Not so much in Canada, although that seems to be changing.
Zee
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