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Medical Forum / General / General / May 2005

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coenzyme q10 statins and cancer

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outrider - 17 May 2005 03:57 GMT
UM Researchers Present Dramatic Cancer Findings
Coenzyme q10 has been found to selectively kill breast and prostate
cancer cells. So if adding coenzyme q10 kills cancer...

...what does removing it do?

Zee

http://www.med.miami.edu/news/view.asp?id=403

         Researchers from the University of Miami Leonard M. Miller
School of Medicine have presented dramatic findings at a national
cancer meeting that show a link between a very potent antioxidant that
occurs naturally in the body, and the ability to kill breast and
prostate cancer cells.  The antioxidant they have studied is
Ubiquinone, more commonly referred to as Coenzyme Q10 or CoQ10, and
delivery of the therapy could soon  be as simple as applying an
ointment to the tumor site.

           CoQ10 is one of the most important antioxidants found in
the body, and is used by cells not only to protect against free radical
damage, but also to produce ATP,  a compound that powers every cell in
the human body.  High levels of CoQ10 are especially essential in the
high activity cells, such as heart muscle cells, brain cells, and
immune system cells.  As we age, CoQ10 levels drop off, and decreased
levels of the antioxidant have been observed in cancer, diabetes, and
neurodegenerative diseases.

           In laboratory and animal studies, the UM researchers found
that by delivering CoQ10 to cancer cells and tissues, the molecule
induced apoptosis, which is the normal programmed cell death that goes
awry in the disease process.  "The most amazing part is that we've
been able to restore a cancer cell's ability to kill itself, while
not impacting normal cells,"   said Niven Narain, research associate
in the Department of Dermatology and Cutaneous Surgery at the Miller
School of Medicine.

            The scientists made two presentations at the annual
meeting of the American Association for Cancer Research in Anaheim, Ca.
The first presentation involved the most common prostate cancer cell
line, PC3.  The researchers showed that adding CoQ10 to the cells in
vitro, or in the laboratory, there was a 70 percent inhibition of cell
growth over 48 hours and a reversal in the expression of a key
anti-apoptotic protein, bcl-2.  "We saw evidence that the remarkable
reduction in cell growth was due to apoptosis, showing that CoQ10
restored the ability of the cancer cells to kill themselves," said
Narain.

In the second presentation, the researchers showed the impact of CoQ10
on several different breast cancer cell lines.  They found the
substance greatly inhibited the proliferation of breast cancer cells,
while providing a stabilizing effect on the normal mammary cells.
"This suggests to us that CoQ10 could be an effective adjuvant
anti-tumor agent in breast carcinomas," said Indushekhar Persaud,
research associate  in the Department of Dermatology and Cutaneous
Surgery at the Miller School of Medicine.

           The scientists have employed various ways to deliver the
CoQ10, including through the skin.  They used liposomes made of
phospholipids as a molecular vehicle to deliver dermatologically active
agents into targeted cells.  "This significant work is an excellent
model for the important outcomes of  basic science research, to offer
new opportunities for exploring therapeutic options in ill patients.
It is the laboratory bench to bedside paradigm we all seek,"  said
Lawrence Schachner, M.D., chairman of the Department of Dermatology and
Cutaneous Surgery.

            S.L. Hsia, Ph.D., director of the Transdermal
Delivery/Cutaneous Biology Laboratory and principal investigator of the
research, said, "It is amazing that a benign compound, CoQ10, can
cause the cancer cells to selectively kill themselves without harm to
normal cells. Moreover, we have a novel topical delivery system that
offers cancer patients an improved quality of life with a boost of
energy.  Indeed, our team looks forward to one day bringing the benefit
and hope of this technology to many cancer patients."
Sharon Hope - 17 May 2005 04:31 GMT
For the newbies to this group, or those who may have missed it, statin drugs
prevent the body from manufacturing Coenzyme Q10, and create a deficiency.
This coenzyme is necessary for respiration at a cellular level, for
mitochondrial health, and is also involved in cellular signalling, and in
'garbage collection' at the cell level.

> UM Researchers Present Dramatic Cancer Findings
> Coenzyme q10 has been found to selectively kill breast and prostate
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> energy.  Indeed, our team looks forward to one day bringing the benefit
> and hope of this technology to many cancer patients."
Dan - 17 May 2005 17:23 GMT
Does taking a Coenzyme Q10 supplement confer any anti-cancer benefit? Or
keep the heart healthy?

> For the newbies to this group, or those who may have missed it, statin drugs
> prevent the body from manufacturing Coenzyme Q10, and create a deficiency.
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>>energy.  Indeed, our team looks forward to one day bringing the benefit
>>and hope of this technology to many cancer patients."
elgoog - 17 May 2005 18:50 GMT
> Does taking a Coenzyme Q10 supplement confer any anti-cancer benefit? Or
> keep the heart healthy?
>
> > For the newbies to this group, or those who may have missed it, statin drugs
> > prevent the body from manufacturing Coenzyme Q10, and create a deficiency.
> > This coenzyme is necessary for respiration at a cellular level, for

> > mitochondrial health, and is also involved in cellular signalling, and in
> > 'garbage collection' at the cell level.
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
> >>energy.  Indeed, our team looks forward to one day bringing the benefit
> >>and hope of this technology to many cancer patients."

The simple answer is, yes, or maybe. Coenzyme Q10, in addition to
anti-oxidative properties, is required for mitochondrial ATP synthesis
and has been useful in clinical and metabolic improvement in some
patients with mitochondrial disorders.

Some studies support the idea that CoQ10 could be helpful in the
treatment of hypertension, and may be useful as an adjunct therapy to
conventional treatments for CVD.

ref.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/coq10/index.html

-elgoog
Dan - 17 May 2005 19:45 GMT
>>Does taking a Coenzyme Q10 supplement confer any anti-cancer benefit?
>
[quoted text clipped - 182 lines]
>
> -elgoog

Thanks for posting this site.  Great, readable information.  Sounds like
CoQ10 should be studied much more rigorously to get some definitive
conclusions.
elgoog - 17 May 2005 20:06 GMT
> >>Does taking a Coenzyme Q10 supplement confer any anti-cancer benefit?
> >
> > Or
> >
> >>keep the heart healthy?

<<snip>>

> > The simple answer is, yes, or maybe. Coenzyme Q10, in addition to
> > anti-oxidative properties, is required for mitochondrial ATP synthesis
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> CoQ10 should be studied much more rigorously to get some definitive
> conclusions.

Yes, we can expect more studies. I took CoQ10 for a time myself, so I
find the evidence to be compelling. Unfortunately, there are too many
willing to jump on the bandwagon and make definitive claims about
things that are by no means certain. I am not against people taking
CoQ10 supplements, but it isn't useful when people make unsubstantiated
claims of success or treatment.

I think vitamin E has been a cautionary tale for us where people have
rushed to judgements far too quickly.
Dan - 17 May 2005 20:34 GMT
>>>>Does taking a Coenzyme Q10 supplement confer any anti-cancer
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> I think vitamin E has been a cautionary tale for us where people have
> rushed to judgements far too quickly.

What's up with Vit E?  Good or bad?
Juhana Harju - 17 May 2005 20:49 GMT
:: On 5/17/2005 2:06 PM, elgoog wrote:

::: I think vitamin E has been a cautionary tale for us where people
::: have rushed to judgements far too quickly.
::
:: What's up with Vit E?  Good or bad?

There was a meta-analyzes which found slightly higher mortality with people
taking high doses. Taking smaller doses (less than 200 mg/day) and
preferably with mixed tocopherols is probably the healthiest choice.

Signature

Juhana

elgoog - 17 May 2005 21:17 GMT
> >>>>Does taking a Coenzyme Q10 supplement confer any anti-cancer
> >
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> What's up with Vit E?  Good or bad?

A little from column a, a little from column b. Vitamin E was thought
to be the wonder antioxidant/cancer preventative/cardiovascular health
supplement. There were thousands of studies supporting the idea, and
many, many people jumped on the bandwagon and extended the findings to
include diseases and treatments not specifically studied. Then,
suddenly 6 months ago, megadoses of vitamin E were considered
dangerous. Now, they're okay. But, placebo controlled studies have not
shown the significant benefits predicted in terms of cancer prevention
and heart disease. This doesn't mean that vitamin E isn't beneficial,
it just means that some people jumped the gun saying it was good for
everything, and then some other people jumped the gun saying it wasn't
good for anything.

The truth lies buried somewhere beneath the BS.
Dan - 17 May 2005 21:29 GMT
>>>>>>Does taking a Coenzyme Q10 supplement confer any anti-cancer
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> The truth lies buried somewhere beneath the BS.

I take vitamins and supplements as an insurance policy.  This includes
400mg Vit E per day.  My heart health is fine and blood numbers are
great.  Should rethink my Vit E dose?
elgoog - 18 May 2005 03:02 GMT
> >>>>>>Does taking a Coenzyme Q10 supplement confer any anti-cancer
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
> 400mg Vit E per day.  My heart health is fine and blood numbers are
> great.  Should rethink my Vit E dose?

Not necessarily. There is no evidence that the amount you are taking
would be harmful, and you are well under the tolerable upper limit
recommendation of 1000mg. OTOH, you might get as much benefit from
200mg per day.

My point was not to knock vitamin E, but rather the way people tend to
want to draw conclusions from inconclusive evidence. It's called
deduction, but can lead to bad decisions when one doesn't leave room
for possibilities.
Jim Chinnis - 18 May 2005 03:51 GMT
"elgoog" <bjdefend-newsgroups@yahoo.com> wrote in part:

>> I take vitamins and supplements as an insurance policy.  This
>includes
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>deduction, but can lead to bad decisions when one doesn't leave room
>for possibilities.

I'll comment on both assertions. :-)

Drawing conclusions from inconclusive evidence isn't deduction,
it's probabilistic inference.

The data are lacking on vitamin E. For what it's worth (not much),
I take 200 IU as mixed tocopherols and I take some tocotrienols,
40 mg, I think.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
elgoog - 18 May 2005 04:14 GMT
> "elgoog" <bjdefend-newsgroups@yahoo.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Drawing conclusions from inconclusive evidence isn't deduction,
> it's probabilistic inference.

Good point. I was searching for a term, but couldn't quite find it.
"Probalistic inference" however implies that the individual recognizes
the possibility of error, or at least the imprecise nature of their
conclusion. I am not sure that those that jump to conclusions retain
sufficient objectivity to accept the possibility of error.

> The data are lacking on vitamin E. For what it's worth (not much),
> I take 200 IU as mixed tocopherols and I take some tocotrienols,
> 40 mg, I think.
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Jim Heckman - 18 May 2005 09:53 GMT
On 17-May-2005, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu>
wrote in message <j2bl81pb98590ohi7k89j944o6hucoa7r8@4ax.com>:

[...]

> The data are lacking on vitamin E. For what it's worth (not much),
> I take 200 IU as mixed tocopherols

I read somewhere about a very recent study showing some incredible
reduction in the incidence of Alzheimer's disease for those taking both
500 mg vitamin C and 400 IU vitamin E -- but neither alone did the
trick, and ISTR lower doses also provided less protection.

> and I take some tocotrienols,
> 40 mg, I think.

Where do you get that?

Signature

Jim Heckman

elgoog - 18 May 2005 15:25 GMT
> On 17-May-2005, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu>
> wrote in message <j2bl81pb98590ohi7k89j944o6hucoa7r8@4ax.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> --
> Jim Heckman

Here is a study showing that vitamin E is ineffectual at treating,
preventing or delaying Alzheimer's, NEJM http://tinyurl.com/c3lw4

I know of no study that shows adding vitamin C to the equation makes it
effective at reducing the incidence of Alzheimer's.
Jim Heckman - 19 May 2005 08:37 GMT
On 18-May-2005, "elgoog" <bjdefend-newsgroups@yahoo.com>
wrote in message <1116426300.250762.114500@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:

[...]

> > I read somewhere about a very recent study showing some incredible
> > reduction in the incidence of Alzheimer's disease for those taking
> > both
> > 500 mg vitamin C and 400 IU vitamin E -- but neither alone did the
> > trick, and ISTR lower doses also provided less protection.

[...]

> Here is a study showing that vitamin E is ineffectual at treating,
> preventing or delaying Alzheimer's, NEJM http://tinyurl.com/c3lw4
>
> I know of no study that shows adding vitamin C to the equation makes it
> effective at reducing the incidence of Alzheimer's.

I'm pretty sure I read about it in a popular-press health newsletter,
but a reputable one like Berkeley or Consumer Reports.  It caught my eye
because my mother, maternal grandfather and all of his sisters
developed Alzheimer's, so I'm always on the lookout for potentially
preventive measures on that front.  If I come across more about it, I'll
post the reference.

Signature

Jim Heckman

Jim Chinnis - 18 May 2005 15:59 GMT
"Jim Heckman" <wnzrfeurpxzna@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in part:

>On 17-May-2005, Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu>
>wrote in message <j2bl81pb98590ohi7k89j944o6hucoa7r8@4ax.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Where do you get that?

Whereever I find it when I run out. Most "health food" stores,
vitamin shops, etc carry it in many forms. Currently I have a
bottle from GNC.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Sharon Hope - 18 May 2005 05:06 GMT
See also the website of the International Coenzyme Q10 Association:
http://www.coenzymeq10.it/home.html

<<snip>>
>> ref.
>> http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/coq10/index.html
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> CoQ10 should be studied much more rigorously to get some definitive
> conclusions.
Juhana Harju - 18 May 2005 05:39 GMT
:: See also the website of the International Coenzyme Q10 Association:
:: http://www.coenzymeq10.it/home.html

This review by Peter and Alena Langsjoen is also worth of reading:

The abstract:
Langsjoen PH, Langsjoen AM.
*Overview of the use of CoQ10 in cardiovascular disease*. Biofactors.
1999;9(2-4):273-84.

The clinical experience in cardiology with CoQ10 includes studies on
congestive heart failure, ischemic heart disease, hypertensive heart
disease, diastolic dysfunction of the left ventricle, and reperfusion injury
as it relates to coronary artery bypass graft surgery. The CoQ10-lowering
effect of HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors and the potential adverse
consequences are of growing concern. Supplemental CoQ10 alters the natural
history of cardiovascular illnesses and has the potential for prevention of
cardiovascular disease through the inhibition of LDL cholesterol oxidation
and by the maintenance of optimal cellular and mitochondrial function
throughout the ravages of time and internal and external stresses. The
attainment of higher blood levels of CoQ10 (> 3.5 micrograms/ml) with the
use of higher doses of CoQ10 appears to enhance both the magnitude and rate
of clinical improvement. In this communication, 34 controlled trials and
several open-label and long-term studies on the clinical effects of CoQ10 in
cardiovascular diseases are reviewed. PMID: 10416041
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
0416041&dopt=Abstract


The full study:
http://www.tishcon.com/overview.html

::: On 5/17/2005 12:50 PM, elgoog wrote:
:::: Dan wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
::: like CoQ10 should be studied much more rigorously to get some
::: definitive conclusions.

Signature

Juhana

outrider - 18 May 2005 05:53 GMT
> :: See also the website of the International Coenzyme Q10 Association:
> :: http://www.coenzymeq10.it/home.html
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> several open-label and long-term studies on the clinical effects of CoQ10 in
> cardiovascular diseases are reviewed. PMID: 10416041

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
0416041&dopt=Abstract


> The full study:
> http://www.tishcon.com/overview.html
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> --
> Juhana

I always pass along such information to people who e-mail me about
their statin injury. But I am very conflicted about this. We know
statins deplete co-enzyme q10, but we don't know very well if taking it
orally will repair statin damage. There is one very small case
study/trial by Langsjoen for patients with cardiomyopathy (?). I had no
results personally and I can't say I know of anyone taking it for
statin damage who says it definitely helped.
just_ed53spam@yahoo.com - 21 May 2005 16:44 GMT
> This review by Peter and Alena Langsjoen is also worth of reading:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> several open-label and long-term studies on the clinical effects of CoQ10 in
> cardiovascular diseases are reviewed. PMID: 10416041

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
0416041&dopt=Abstract


> The full study:
> http://www.tishcon.com/overview.html

Nice survey.
Their observation that "optimum clinical benefit requires above normal
CoQ10 blood levels (2 to 4 times higher)" reminds me of creatine
supplementation where low supplementation levels mainly reduce
endogenous production through feedback.  Higher levels are needed to
increase muscle levels (analogous to boosting cellular CoQ10 levels
left below normal by statin damage).

Apologies to those who notice that I'd posted the following abstract
in another thead but it seems pertinent here that pantethine is a
HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor.  Pantethine users might be wise to
protect themselves with supplemental CoQ10.

Ed

Biochim Biophys Acta. 1988 Nov 25;963(2):389-93. Related Articles,
Links

Modulation of HMG-CoA reductase activity by pantetheine/pantethine.

Cighetti G, Del Puppo M, Paroni R, Galli Kienle M.

Department of Medical Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of Milan,
Italy.

The ability of pantetheine/pantethine to modulate the activity of
HMG-CoA reductase (EC 1.1.1.34) was determined in vitro with rat liver
microsomes. The decay of the activity was obtained with pantethine in
the 10(-5)-10(-4) M range, whereas stimulation by pantetheine occurred
at 10(-3)-10(-2) M, as previously reported for GSSG and GSH,
respectively. Inhibition of HMG-CoA by pantethine in isolated liver
cells was also investigated by measuring the enzyme activity in
microsomes isolated from hepatocytes incubated without or with 1 mM
pantethine under conditions previously shown by us to induce inhibition
of cholesterol synthesis from acetate. The enzyme amount was not
modified by pantethine, but in cells treated with the disulphide, the
relative amounts of the thiolic active forms of the enzyme, both
phosphorylated and dephosphorylated, were decreased to about half
compared to controls.

PMID: 3196742
Juhana Harju - 21 May 2005 17:55 GMT
:: Juhana Harju wrote:
::: This review by Peter and Alena Langsjoen is also worth of reading:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
::: Biofactors. 1999;9(2-4):273-84.
::: [...]

:: Nice survey.
:: [...]
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
::
:: Ed

This site is not the most reliable, but the claims are still interesting:

"While the exact mechanism of pantethine in normalizing parameters
associated with dyslipidemia is not clear, clinical studies have proven that
when pantethine is added to cultured cells, it causes an 80% inhibition in
cholesterol synthesis, most likely inhibiting the activity of HMG-CoA
reductase.

Pantethine can also boost the production of enzymes that helps to break down
blood fats. It helps to enhance Vitamin E's action and prevents cholesterol
from building up in the blood. Pantethine also increases the amount of
omega-3 fatty acids, which in turn stabilizes the cellular membrane.
Furthermore, it also *enhances* the production of Coenzyme Q10, leading to
stronger cardiac contraction force and increasing the efficiency of energy
generation."

http://www.drlam.com/opinion/pantothenic_acid_and_pantethine.cfm

Emphasis mine. Please notice also that the lipid altering effect is opposite
than statins have. Statins reduce omega-3 fatty acids.

Signature

Juhana

just_ed53spam@yahoo.com - 21 May 2005 21:35 GMT
<SNIP>
> This site is not the most reliable, but the claims are still interesting:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Emphasis mine. Please notice also that the lipid altering effect is opposite
> than statins have. Statins reduce omega-3 fatty acids.

It is interesting, I appreciate your post.

The 80% inhibition to which he refers may be quoting the study I
posted, I hope he didn't just slip and refer to the HMG-CoA
"stimulation by pantetheine".

He claims that pantethine by far more active than pantothenic
acid in the production of CoA and that this hypothesis has been
proven true by many clinical trials.

Pubmed doesn't seem to know about any of them.  I did find one
"no effect" from pantothenate, yes for pantethine (abstract below).
Apparently the other half of the molecule, cysteamine, is a
common enough drug.

Likewise, the search pantethine & CoQ10 gave nothing.  It would be
nice if pantethine somehow didn't reduce CoQ10 production so my
concern would be needless.  Better yet if it enhanced CoQ10 like
Lam claims but I haven't found data that supports more/less/no change.

I'll review his list reference list eventually but at first glance
I'm pleased that Dr Lam placed that page in an "opinion" directory.
I have emailed his site about this.

Ed

Atherosclerosis. 1987 Nov;68(1-2):41-9. Related Articles, Links

Pantethine lipomodulation: evidence for cysteamine mediation in vitro
and in vivo.

Wittwer CT, Graves CP, Peterson MA, Jorgensen E, Wilson DE, Thoene JG,
Wyse BW, Windham CT, Hansen RG.

Department of Pathology, University of Utah Medical School, Salt Lake
City 84132.

Recent human studies suggest rapid in vivo hydrolysis of the
lipid-lowering drug, pantethine, to the vitamin pantothenic acid and
the small aminothiol compound, cysteamine. To test whether the active
agent is a hydrolysis product, we repeated three experimental models of
pantethine's effect with pantothenate and cysteamine. In vitro
experiments with human fetal fibroblasts showed equivalent modulation
of cholesterol and methyl sterol synthesis by pantethine, cysteamine,
or cystamine (the disulfide of cysteamine), but pantothenate had no
effect. Similarly, in vivo experiments with 0.5% cholesterol-fed
rabbits showed oral pantethine or equimolar cystamine significantly
lowered plasma cholesterol, while pantothenate, cystine, and
2-hydroxyethyl disulfide did not. Lastly, diabetic male rats (40 mg/kg
streptozotocin) fed 0.1% pantethine and lower plasma free fatty acids
after 2 weeks than controls, an effect not seen with pantothenate and
largely duplicated by cystamine. The efficacy of pantethine has
previously been attributed to altered vitamin metabolism and increased
coenzyme A concentration. Pantethine did increase CoA levels 45% in rat
liver homogenates while equivalent amounts of cystamine or pantothenate
did not. However, a causal relationship between CoA levels and
pantethine's action as a hypolipemic agent has never been shown. At
least in 3 independent experimental models, the lipomodulating effect
of pantethine appears instead to be mediated by the hydrolysis product
cysteamine.

PMID: 3689482
 
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