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Medical Forum / General / General / June 2005

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Fish Oil and the Feds

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Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 May 2005 06:16 GMT
>>The study advances scientists' understanding of how fatty fish affect
the heart, said Dr. Jean Olson of the National Heart, Lung and Blood
Institute, which funded it. For consumers, "the bottom line is, 'Eat
more fish,'" she said .<<

COMMENT:

Another unhelpful opinion from another government "expert" who just
doesn't get it.

We are repeating the vitamin wars of 20 years ago, in which all kinds
of good things were found out about this or that vitamin (folate,
say),and a ton of government money was spent to find out how much this
or that vitamin was in foods, and how they should be prepared, and how
much leached out into the water you boil your vegetables in, and ad
nauseum. But it made a lot of nutritionists happy for decades because
it paid their salaries. And did the public no good at all. Finally, in
the case of folate, after a few thousand more deformed babies were
born, there was a giant argument between a bunch of government
conservatives (at the NIH) and another set (at the FDA) until finally a
third bunch of government types who were a wee bit more enlightened (at
the USDA) finally won out. Then the feds just started mandating the
addition of folate to "enriched" flour. That actually began solving the
problem. It was very much the same story as adding iodide to salt three
generations earlier. And as with iodine, the food-fettish nutritionists
fought folate pills all the way until the day folate finally wound up
in flour. Then they shut up. And moved on to the next nutrient.

We've seen this before. It took about half a century for
multivitamin/mineral pills to be accepted by nutritionists, because
such pills made about half of what nutritionists did for the whole 20th
century (measuring vitamins and minerals in foods and recommending
foods with particular nutrients), irrelevent. But that doesn't mean
that nutritionists have stopped hating supplement pills just because
they finally gave in on multivitamins. As we said, if what's in the
supplement pill is added to your food by your helpful government, that
nutrient will drop off the nutritionist radar screens. Until then,
however, professional nutritionists will be in the middle of things,
screwing things up, wasting money, and trying to get people to do
*anything* but take the nutrient pill.

I suspect we won't be rid of the unwanted and unhelpful advice of this
pesky profession on the omega-3 issue until the USDA finds a way to add
EPA+DHA to the food supply somehow---- and since that's going to be
very difficult due to the needed dose and oxygen sensitivity of these
nutrients, I suspect his nonsense will instead drag on for decades.
Look for a lot more fishmeal to be fed to chickens and pigs and beef,
but it won't be enough. After all, it took decades to get DHA into
canned infant formula (lowering a lot of infant IQs in the process, no
doubt), and that is an EASY chemical problem compared with getting DHA
into the general adult food supply in any kind of preventive amounts.

So meanwhile, here we are again, back with a new thing (long chain
omega-3 FA's) and we're stuck at war with the anti-supplement-pill
nutritionists as usual. Will we never learn? Unless you eat sardines or
red/sockeye salmon, you really don't know how much omega-3's in that
fish in front of you. So why go through all the nonsense trying to
figure it out?  Take an omega-3 EPA/DHA supplement! It's cheap (25
cents a day). It works (has been proven in prospective double blind
studies of fish oil supplements in heart patients). End of omega-3
problem. It seems too simple. It IS too simple.

The simple fix is not happening for more than one reason. Not only do
we have the anti-pill nutritionists screwing things up so more people
don't take fishoil pills, but on the other side we have the Rx
*pill-pushing* pharm-FDA industrial complex. This coalition has made
sure the government (or your government sponsored health plan) is
paying for some share of your prescription items, and that you don't or
won't really count a pill as "real" medicine or "strong" medicine
*unless* a doctor prescribes it for you, a pharmacist gives it to you,
and your health plan pays for it. Which, in the case of fish oil
capsules, the FDA and the DHHS and USPTO are making difficult enough
that it's not likely to happen.

Again, however, fish oil pills are supplements which do as well or
better than the top-selling statins at preventing cardiac death in
people with coronary disease. But, even though the AHA weakly endorses
fish oil pills (along, of course, with all the various kinds of fatty
and confusing fish) relatively few people with coronary disease take
them. The government pays for their angioplastics, their bypasses and
(yes) their statins. And their cholesterol binders and niacin and
fibrates and so on. Even their aspirin (provided it can be made to look
powerful and be extra expensive). But not their fish oil pills. The
only thing the government DOES pay for nutritionally, is studies by a
bevy of nutritionists to look at fish as food and figure out ways to
divert people's attention from fish oil supplements. Go figure.

Fish oil capsules are example of an easy, inexpensive, and fairly
effective treatment for a very difficult and expensive problem
(coronary disease--- I don't review the many other uses for them). Of
course, fish oil capsules are not a cure-all. They won't fix heart
disease. They don't lower cholesterol that well, though they do a good
job on triglycerides. They are apparently excellent antiarrhythmics.
They may act synergistically with prescription drugs in heart disease
to prevent death, and I expect they do. They merely deserve to be seen
as on par with the best pharmacological therapies (in terms of effect)
and as easily beating many medical therapies in terms of cost, safety,
and side effects. I personally have zero commercial interest in them.
But in terms of bang-for-buck, I find them incredibly impressive.

And yet, your government is doing almost everything it can, short of
making fish oil pills actually *illegal,* to keep the average person
from swallowing them. They pay for prescription drugs that don't work
(fibrates). They pay for studies on what fish to eat (but none which
can tell you for sure how to avoid those full of mercury and which have
little omega-3s). The government is unlikely to pay for studies on fish
oil pills (the biggest one was done in Italy), and the government
prescription drug benefit of course will not pay for the fish oil pills
themselves. How is that for strange?  It's almost enough to make one
wonder about conspiracies. But it's not. It's simply the usual
confederacy of dunces we saw with iodine, niacin, folate, and so on.
And it's the usual information problem which crimps our use of almost
any nutrient in a pill.

And it's not as though the health care system we have, has much "bang
for buck," that they don't need to look for other ways to attack health
problems. Rather the opposite. Those treadmills, CCU's, nuclear heart
scans, bypasses, angioplasties and statin drugs are breaking the
healthcare system. They contribute greatly to medicaid costs which are
growing exponentially everywhere. I heard the governnor of Virginia the
other night on CNN bemoan the fact that medicaid is now 24% of his
state budget, and doubing in cost every 7 years (that way lies
bankrupcy very soon). Medicaid costs now DRIVE most state budgets, even
ahead of K-12 ed.  But no state is going broke trying to supply
"vulnerable populations" with fish oil capsules. They ARE, however,
going broke trying to decide whether to pay for Lipitor vs Pravachol.
The fish oil, by contrast, would actually be financially do-able. How's
that for irony?

SBH
Alan Cohen - 10 May 2005 16:12 GMT
I agree that the "eat more fish" exhortations are not nearly as useful
as a call for folks to take fish oil capsules.

Another thing: as complimentary as you are to the utility of fish oil,
you're still understating the case.

Fish oil has been shown to be the single most helpful substance for
cutting the risk of cardiovascular death (23% decrease in death rate)
:http://grumpyrichard.com/node/11

Compare this to, say, $20,000 angioplasties, which probably do not cut
the death rate at all: http://grumpyrichard.com/node/20

The big problem, of course, is that nobody will give physicians cash or
vacations or whatnot to push the stuff.  A physician will write a
prescription for a statin (also good things) in a heartbeat, because
there is an infrastructure in place that incents a lot of people with
big bucks for that action.

However, I know of very, very few physicians that will take 30 seconds
to tell a patient "You probably want to think about taking fish oil; it
costs $10 for a year's supply at Costco, and it's been shown to be even
more effective than the statins that you should also take).

Until we make inroads into diminishing unbridled medical greed, fish oil
is unlikely to save the many millions of lives that it could.

So sad.

GRUMPY RICHARD

>>>The study advances scientists' understanding of how fatty fish affect
>
[quoted text clipped - 127 lines]
>
> SBH
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 May 2005 18:18 GMT
>>The big problem, of course, is that nobody will give physicians cash
or vacations or whatnot to push the stuff.  A physician will write a
prescription for a statin (also good things) in a heartbeat, because
there is an infrastructure in place that incents a lot of people with
big bucks for that action. <<

COMMENT:

Though, in truth, not the physician writing the prescription. All he or
she gets is a free pen. And he gets that whether he prescribes a lot or
a little statin. The cash and vacations is for the lecturers, but
everybody knows very well they're biased and are on the take. Their
influence is undoubted, but it's there because of the huge money
available to pharma, as a result of the structure of patents and the
nature of the FDA.  If you want the source of the problem, look there.
Big industry influences politics also. Is this essentially because of
the differential "greed" of campaign managers, vs. other professions?
No.  It's money corrupting truth. It happens in every field and every
human endevor.

Maybe we need free fish pens?  You heard it here first. Sponsored by
the Alaska Salmon Institute?

Actually, "prescribing" fish oil is not a painless or low-time
exercise, as there are endless questions about it from patients, and
enough complaints and drama from many of them to sound as though you'd
asked them to swallow live goldfish every day.  They can't remember.
They complain of the cost (not covered). They can't find Costco. They
get to Costco and can't find the fish oil. They complain about horse
pills and fish burps and gas. They want to know about alternative fish
products. Nobody pays the doctor a nickel to explain this stuff, and a
doctor has to generate $200 an hour to keep his/her practice afloat.
It's not a matter of greed so much as economic survival. YOU just try
getting your dentist to spend 15 minutes with you explaining proper
brushing technique and discussing various brands of powered
toothbrushes.  YOU get your local plumber on the phone and see how long
you can get him to talk about the virtues of the various draincleaners
and drain unclogging methods. Get a lawyer on the phone for 15 minutes
of free discussion about your favorite legal bind. This is (damnit) not
some special greed problem of doctors. This is an problem of
information transfer which all professions and professions run into.

Fish oil has one other problem. Unlike the statins, fishoil at a dose
of 3 or 4 grams a day doesn't lower some magic number (like LDL) to
show that it's "working." It might have some minor effect on
triglyerides, but the average person's triglycerides are in "normal"
range anyway. Fish oil is mostly an antiarhythmic, but like some
classes of antiarythmic (notably the beta blockers) it does better at
blocking the bad and nasty rhythms than it does in inhibiting the minor
and meaningless dysrhythmias (PVDs, PADs, etc).  People tend to use
things they can see an immediate effect from, and for a long time that
problem plagued beta blockers vs. oral Class I agents.  A lot of people
died that way. It wasn't greed (doctors don't get paid to prescribe one
more than the other). Just human nature. Fish oil has the same problem.

SBH
Mr-Natural-Health - 10 May 2005 18:53 GMT
> get to Costco and can't find the fish oil. They complain about horse
> pills and fish burps and gas. They want to know about alternative fish
> products.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!  Fish Oil = Horse size capsules.

Gee!  Who on these ngs said that before?

> Nobody pays the doctor a nickel to explain this stuff, and a
> doctor has to generate $200 an hour to keep his/her practice afloat.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha! Could it be that physicians are not interested in
prevention because prevention does not pay?

No kidding, Sherlock!

> It's not a matter of greed so much as economic survival.

It is always about greed/money.

> This is (damnit) not
> some special greed problem of doctors. This is an problem of
> information transfer which all professions and professions run into.

I guess then that some apothecaries are smarter than physicians in
general since the better ones provide printed handouts along with the
filled prescription.

Written hand outs for green prescriptions?  How revolutionary. Would
patients have to pay doctors extra for actually working?  Ha, ... Hah,
Ha!

> Fish oil has one other problem. Unlike the statins, fishoil at a dose
> of 3 or 4 grams a day doesn't lower some magic number (like LDL) to
> show that it's "working." It might have some minor effect on
> triglyerides, but the average person's triglycerides are in "normal"
> range anyway.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!  Yeah, tell me about the gas generated from taking 20
grams of the stuff a day. :)
Peter Moran - 10 May 2005 21:47 GMT
>> get to Costco and can't find the fish oil. They complain about horse
>> pills and fish burps and gas. They want to know about alternative
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Ha, ... Hah, Ha! Could it be that physicians are not interested in
> prevention because prevention does not pay?

?  Well, actually, prevention of heart attacks, or any other fatal illness,
does pay the doctor, by keeping one's patients alive and coming back.  The
longer we live, the more medical attention we will consume.

Physicians probably could do a bit  more to implement preventative measures
if there were financial incentives, but not as much as you might think.
Who doesn't already know about not smoking, not drinking too much alcohol,
getting more exercise, eating less, and roughly what goes into a healthy
diet?   Who has not already fallen into certain lifestyle patterns before
hardly ever getting to see a doctor?

Peter Moran
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 10 May 2005 23:55 GMT
>>Ha, ... Hah, Ha!  Fish Oil = Horse size capsules.
Gee!  Who on these ngs said that before? <<

COMMENT:

Why, you. And I note that you didn't benefit at all from reading my
long printed reply which explained that they don't have to be horse
pills.

>>Ha, ... Hah, Ha!  Yeah, tell me about the gas generated from taking 20
grams of the stuff a day. :) <<

COMMENT:

Nor did you benefit from reading my reply that 20 weren't necessary,
and that relevent studies had use the equivalent of 2 to 4.

>>It is always about greed/money. <<

COMMENT

Why is why I'm paid well for spending all this time writing here. Not.

>>I guess then that some apothecaries are smarter than physicians in
general since the better ones provide printed handouts along with the
filled prescription. Written hand outs for green prescriptions?  How
revolutionary. <<

COMMENT:

And how useless in most cases, since many patients are nearly as
helpless at learning from reading as you are. And look at the time I've
already spent on you.

You know, Ghode, I occasionally see "sponsored links" here for
vaginismus treatment kits. Look to your right on the screen.  And I'm
thinking, that with your incredibly tiny, gently pointed cranium, that
your entire head could possibly used as a treatment dilator for ladies
with this problem.  You could rent yourself out.  It might even count
as exercise, and it would certainly do your brain as much good as your
participation here.  

SBH
Twittering One - 11 May 2005 00:22 GMT
But it's illegal, as well as unappealling!
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 11 May 2005 00:59 GMT
Pity.  I thought this a creative use of what otherwise is is _entirely_
a waste of volume. Small volume though it may be.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 11 May 2005 00:59 GMT
Pity.  I thought this a creative use of what otherwise is _entirely_ a
waste of volume. Small volume though it may be.
TwitteringOne - 11 May 2005 01:07 GMT
Clickhead!

I said ~ To rent out, or misuse, illegal.
To truely love, to care,
Divine.
David Wright - 11 May 2005 03:37 GMT
>You know, Ghode, I occasionally see "sponsored links" here for
>vaginismus treatment kits. Look to your right on the screen.  And I'm
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>as exercise, and it would certainly do your brain as much good as your
>participation here.  

Plus, they say travel is broadening, and it would allow Toothless John
to go somewhere he's never been before (other than at his own birth).

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "I don't need someone to tell me that George W. Bush is a
       deceitful, corrupt, clever and destructive man--that's pretty
       clear on the face of it."  -- Garrison Keillor
Jim Chinnis - 10 May 2005 19:44 GMT
"Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
part:

>Fish oil has one other problem. Unlike the statins, fishoil at a dose
>of 3 or 4 grams a day doesn't lower some magic number (like LDL) to
>show that it's "working." It might have some minor effect on
>triglyerides, but the average person's triglycerides are in "normal"
>range anyway.

There is evidence, mostly at somewhat hgher doses, of beneficial
effects on lipoprotein particle size distributions. That may turn
out to be quite important in terms of atherosclerosis.

Given what appear to be substantial effects on inflammation, it's
also possible that there soon will be some routine measures that
show an improvement in inflammatory drivers of athersclerosis.

But I agree that current evidence is that fish oil reduces
cardiovascular death mostly by reducing the sorts of deadly
arhythmias that occur due to a heart attack, and not that it
reduces the chance of heart attack.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
David Wright - 11 May 2005 03:36 GMT
>Actually, "prescribing" fish oil is not a painless or low-time
>exercise, as there are endless questions about it from patients, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>get to Costco and can't find the fish oil. They complain about horse
>pills and fish burps and gas.

The fish burps, at least, can be mostly avoided by taking the pills
right before bed.  You may still get the fish burps, but you won't
know it.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "I don't need someone to tell me that George W. Bush is a
       deceitful, corrupt, clever and destructive man--that's pretty
       clear on the face of it."  -- Garrison Keillor
Happy Dog - 11 May 2005 05:50 GMT
"David Wright" <wright@l1000.prodigy.net> wrote in message

>>Actually, "prescribing" fish oil is not a painless or low-time
>>exercise, as there are endless questions about it from patients, and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> right before bed.  You may still get the fish burps, but you won't
> know it.

I've never noticed them.  Do they cause the production of excess gas or is
the problem just the odour for those who already have it.

And, what about flax oil, for instance instead of fish oil?

moo
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 11 May 2005 06:57 GMT
> The fish burps, at least, can be mostly avoided by taking the pills
> right before bed.  You may still get the fish burps, but you won't
> know it.

>>I've never noticed them.  Do they cause the production of excess gas or is
the problem just the odour for those who already have it. And, what
about flax oil, for instance instead of fish oil? <<

COMMENT:

Digestive systems differ, and I suspect all adapt to new diets
eventually, unless there's a true allergy.

I've never had the gas, so can't tell you about it except secondhand. I
gather that the problem is shear volume, not particular smell.

The burps, which I call Beluga Burps, seem to be worse or better
depending on what you eat. They're not particularly annoying unless
you're not used to eating sardines or sushi or King Oscar kippered
herring filets (yum says Opus).  So far as I can tell, none of this
make it to the breath, if you take merely pills.  If you can't stand
the burps, they can be considerably decreased with the enteric coated
fish oil, which is also available from Costco (albeit at a markup per
gram of w-3, something a bit over a factor of 2).

SBH
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 11 May 2005 07:44 GMT
>>And, what about flax oil, for instance instead of fish oil?

Efficiency in converting the 18:4w3 ALA from flax to 20:5 EPA and
22:6w3 from algea (and the fish that eat them) is rather poor. Even the
fish have a hard time, since they get them from the algae.

Furthermore, epidemiological studies of ALA consumption have not turned
up nearly the protective effect against heart disease that EPA and DHA
confer. Canadians get twice the ALA we do, from Canola. But their heart
disease rates aren't much diffferent.

Flax or Canola are fine, but fish oil has it's own special functions.
Although ALA also may itself have some functions we don't know about,
aside from being a EPA and DHA precursor. Jury's still out.  So Canola
or linseed AND fish.  2 grams of ALA a day should be plenty. Though you
might need more if you're a vegan and get no fish at all.

SBH
TwitteringOne - 11 May 2005 08:25 GMT
The jury should be
In by now ~
Much supporting data.
Juhana Harju - 11 May 2005 09:36 GMT
:::: And, what about flax oil, for instance instead of fish oil?
::
:: Efficiency in converting the 18:4w3 ALA from flax to 20:5 EPA and
:: 22:6w3 from algea (and the fish that eat them) is rather poor.

AFAIK, the elongation of EPA to DHA is even greater problem.

Signature

Juhana

Owen Lowe - 12 May 2005 07:54 GMT
> The fish burps, at least, can be mostly avoided by taking the pills
> right before bed.  You may still get the fish burps, but you won't
> know it.

:) I take one of my fish oil caps in the morning and it never fails to
remind me during my nearly daily run - "urp" - just one reminder until
the next day.

I take the second at night so don't notice that one if it occurs - but
I'm thinking activity might have something to do with it.

Signature

__________

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some
great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach
their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

anon - 12 May 2005 14:55 GMT
Owen Lowe on 5/12/05 1:54 AM at noemails@myemail.com in
noemails-306A72.23540111052005@corp.supernews.com wrote:

>> The fish burps, at least, can be mostly avoided by taking the pills
>> right before bed.  You may still get the fish burps, but you won't
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I take the second at night so don't notice that one if it occurs - but
> I'm thinking activity might have something to do with it.

It did this for me for the first few months. For years now, there is no
urping whatsoever. Someone said that the enzymes needed to digest fish oil,
require fish oil. (something like that..) So, taking fish oil makes you
better able to digest fish oil.


Owen Lowe - 12 May 2005 19:11 GMT
> It did this for me for the first few months. For years now, there is no
> urping whatsoever. Someone said that the enzymes needed to digest fish oil,
> require fish oil. (something like that..) So, taking fish oil makes you
> better able to digest fish oil.

Two years for me... I guess one of these days the bod will finally
adapt. The urp really isn't all that bad - it's only once and it's not
like I taste it frequently or my breath smells of it.

Signature

__________

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some
great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach
their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

outrider - 12 May 2005 19:23 GMT
> > It did this for me for the first few months. For years now, there is no
> > urping whatsoever. Someone said that the enzymes needed to digest fish oil,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> by a downright moron."
> H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

I've been using them for almost five months. I have not had indigestion
from them. Apologies if I state the obvious which you are already
doing. Here is what I suggest and do myself:

~ keep fish oil capsules in the fridge
~ use organic Alaskan salmon oil not "fish" oil which can have anchovy
~ take them with a cereal meal and orange juice
~ don't exercise until two hours after

Zee
anon - 13 May 2005 03:09 GMT
outrider on 5/12/05 1:23 PM at outrider@despammed.com in
1115922212.542873.261600@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com wrote:

> ~ use organic Alaskan salmon oil not "fish" oil which can have anchovy

Fish oil concentrates require far fewer pills to get the amount of EPA/DHA
that you want.
outrider - 13 May 2005 03:31 GMT
> outrider on 5/12/05 1:23 PM at outrider@despammed.com in
> 1115922212.542873.261600@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Fish oil concentrates require far fewer pills to get the amount of EPA/DHA
> that you want.

I'm not sure the blends are concentrated. But if I'm going to eat
anchovy it's going to be in the form of Vietnamese fish sauce and
floating around a bunch of Thai Basil in a big bowl of Pho.

Zee
Alf Christophersen - 03 Jun 2005 23:30 GMT
>Two years for me... I guess one of these days the bod will finally
>adapt. The urp really isn't all that bad - it's only once and it's not
>like I taste it frequently or my breath smells of it.

Try enterosoluble pills.
Juhana Harju - 11 May 2005 09:03 GMT
:::: The big problem, of course, is that nobody will give physicians
:::: cash
:: or vacations or whatnot to push the stuff.  A physician will write a
:: prescription for a statin (also good things) in a heartbeat, because
:: there is an infrastructure in place that incents a lot of people with
:: big bucks for that action. <<

:: [...]
:: Fish oil has one other problem. Unlike the statins, fishoil at a dose
:: of 3 or 4 grams a day doesn't lower some magic number (like LDL) to
:: show that it's "working." It might have some minor effect on
:: triglyerides, but the average person's triglycerides are in "normal"
:: range anyway. Fish oil is mostly an antiarhythmic, [...]

Fish oils lower CRP if some magic marker is needed. I wouldn't say that fish
oils have a minor effect on triglyserides.

Am J Cardiol. 2001 Nov 15;88(10):1139-42. Related Articles, Links

*C-reactive protein, dietary n-3 fatty acids, and the extent of coronary*
*artery disease*.

Madsen T, Skou HA, Hansen VE, Fog L, Christensen JH, Toft E, Schmidt EB.

Department of Cardiology, Aalborg Hospital, Aalborg, Denmark.

The acute-phase reactant C-reactive protein (CRP) has emerged as an
independent risk factor for coronary artery disease. Experimental and
clinical studies provide evidence of anti-inflammatory effects of n-3
polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) derived from fish. We have studied the
effect of marine n-3 PUFA on CRP levels in 269 patients referred for
coronary angiography because of clinical suspicion of coronary artery
disease. All patients filled out a food questionnaire regarding fish intake.
The n-3 PUFA content of granulocyte membranes was determined and the
concentration of CRP in serum was measured using a highly sensitive assay.
The results were related to angiographic findings. CRP was significantly
higher in patients with significant coronary stenoses than in those with no
significant angiographic changes (p <0.001), but the CRP levels were not
associated with the number of diseased vessels. Subjects with CRP levels in
the lower quartile had a significantly higher content of docosahexaenoic
acid (DHA) in granulocytes than subjects with CRP levels in the upper
quartile (p = 0.02), and in a multivariate linear regression analysis, DHA
was independently correlated to CRP (R(2) = 0.179; p = 0.003). The inverse
correlation between CRP and DHA may reflect an anti-inflammatory effect of
DHA in patients with stable coronary artery disease and suggest a novel
mechanism by which fish consumption may decrease the risk of coronary artery
disease.
PMID: 11703959

     Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 May;65(5 Suppl):1645S-1654S.

     *n-3 fatty acids and serum lipoproteins: human studies*.

Harris WS.

Metabolism and Vascular Research Laboratory, Mid America Heart Institute, St
Luke's Hospital, Kansas City, MO 64111, USA.

The effects of n-3 fatty acids from fish oils (eicosapentaenoic acid and
docosahexaenoic acid) and plant oils (alpha-linolenic acid) on human serum
lipids and lipoproteins are reviewed. Studies were included in this review
if they were placebo-controlled, crossover, or parallel design studies
providing < 7 g n-3 fatty acids/d and with treatment periods of > or = 2 wk
duration. Only three studies were available for evaluation of the effects of
alpha-linolenic acid on serum lipid concentrations. From these studies it
appeared that alpha-linolenic acid (18:3n-3) was equivalent to n-6-rich oils
vis-vis lipid and lipoprotein effects. Only when very large amounts of
flaxseed oil were fed did the hallmark effect of marine n-3 fatty
acids-reduced triacylglycerol concentrations-appear. Thus, in terms of
effects on lipoprotein metabolism, the plant-derived n-3 fatty acid is not
equivalent to the marine-based acids. More studies using the marine-based
acids were examined and summarized. Both crossover (n = 36) and parallel (n
= 29) design studies reached the same conclusions: total cholesterol is not
materially affected by n-3 fatty acid consumption, low-density-lipoprotein
cholesterol concentrations tend to rise by 5-10% and
high-density-lipoprotein cholesterol by 1-3%, and serum triacylglycerol
concentrations decrease by 25-30%. These effects of marine n-3 fatty acids
are now well-established; what remains is to determine the mechanisms behind
these effects and, more importantly, their health consequences. PMID:
9129504

Signature

Juhana

Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 11 May 2005 19:52 GMT
>>Fish oils lower CRP if some magic marker is needed. I wouldn't say
that fish oils have a minor effect on triglyserides. <<

They do at reasonable GISSI doses, and for mortality reduction. In the
triglyceride reduction study you quote, the doses are 7 grams w-3 a
day, which is indeed the 20 capsules that Ghode was complaining about.
For triglyceride treatment, you really need a lot of fishoil. But we
weren't talking about triglycerides.

SBH
Juhana Harju - 11 May 2005 21:36 GMT
:::: Fish oils lower CRP if some magic marker is needed. I wouldn't say
:::: that fish oils have a minor effect on triglycerides.

:: They do at reasonable GISSI doses, and for mortality reduction. In
:: the triglyceride reduction study you quote, the doses are 7 grams
:: w-3 a day, which is indeed the 20 capsules that Ghode was
:: complaining about. For triglyceride treatment, you really need a lot
:: of fishoil.

Often three grams is enough to lower triglycerides considerably. If you take
them in ethyl ester form you need only three capsules. If you also eat some
fatty fish you need even less.

:: But we weren't talking about triglycerides.

You were talking about risk markers in connection with fish oils.
Triglycerides is a risk marker.

Signature

Juhana

Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 13 May 2005 17:44 GMT
>>Often three grams is enough to lower triglycerides considerably. If you take
them in ethyl ester form you need only three capsules. If you also eat
some
fatty fish you need even less. <<

You're talking 3 grams of oil or 3 g of w-3?  You say you can get a
gram of w-3 in a capsule in ethyl ester form?  That's very high tech.
What product are you talking about??  And the price is WHAT?

SBH
Juhana Harju - 13 May 2005 20:50 GMT
:::: Often three grams is enough to lower triglycerides considerably. If
:: you take
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
:: gram of w-3 in a capsule in ethyl ester form?  That's very high tech.
:: What product are you talking about??  And the price is WHAT?

The product is Lysi Omega-3 Forte. However I was somewhat mistaken as each
capsule contains 1000 mg fish oils as ethyl esters of which 720 mg omega-3
fatty acids (330 mg EPA and 220 mg DHA). The normal price is eur 16,40/64
capsules on Finland.

Signature

Juhana

Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 14 May 2005 06:57 GMT
>>The product is Lysi Omega-3 Forte. However I was somewhat mistaken as each
capsule contains 1000 mg fish oils as ethyl esters of which 720 mg
omega-3
fatty acids (330 mg EPA and 220 mg DHA). The normal price is eur
16,40/64
capsules on Finland. <<

COMMENT:

That's about .25 eur a cap, or about $0.30 US. That's a lot for .72 g
EPA+DHA. You're nearing 50 cents a gram!

Here our capsules run 0.3 g w-3 per cap for the fishoil (but the price
is as little as $ 0.02 each, or 7 cents a gram w-3).

We can also get molecularly distilled versions for roughly twice the
price in EPA. These have about 0.5 g per capsule, and they run 15 cents
a gram (Costco, or you may go a little higher at Trader Joes).

Bottom line is your fancy product there gives you the same w-3 in two
caps vs three, but at 3 times the price per unit of w-3. Not worth it.

SBH
outrider - 14 May 2005 19:28 GMT
> >>The product is Lysi Omega-3 Forte. However I was somewhat mistaken as
> each
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> SBH

I am unable to determine what the breakdown of EPA + DHA is for the
product I have. But for 180 1000mg wild salmon oil softgels I paid
$18.99. This was the least expensive pure salmon oil I could find.
Blended oils and powder in capsules was cheaper but not substantially,
and especially not since the others were 30mg and 60mg capsules.

Zee
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 14 May 2005 20:48 GMT
See Costo. 180 of the enterics for $11 (450 w-3 each).  And 300 of the
1000 mg for $7. Each containing 300 mg w-3.
Owen Lowe - 11 May 2005 21:36 GMT
> They can't remember.
> They complain of the cost (not covered). They can't find Costco. They
> get to Costco and can't find the fish oil. They complain about horse
> pills and fish burps and gas. They want to know about alternative fish
> products. Nobody pays the doctor a nickel to explain this stuff, and a
> doctor has to generate $200 an hour to keep his/her practice afloat.

And who pays the doctor to explain the ins and outs of prescription
meds? The answer very well better be only the patient and/or their
insurance company. Shouldn't matter what's being discussed, the doctor
gets paid for her time and medical knowledge.

Signature

__________

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some
great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach
their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

outrider - 11 May 2005 22:31 GMT
Quite so Owen. But physicians do not currently see the rational of this
point of view. I have been "signed-off" by an endocrinologist because I
cannot take statins, and will not take Ezetimol (Zetia). Could he spend
the same amount of time guiding me with fishoil supplements, soy
breakfast shakes and B6 guidance? Sure. But he won't.

So I have to come here and bet Harris for freebies.

Zee
outrider - 11 May 2005 22:32 GMT
Ooops. That should be ...

beg Harris for freebies.



Zee
Jim Chinnis - 12 May 2005 02:03 GMT
Owen Lowe <noemails@myemail.com> wrote in part:

>> They can't remember.
>> They complain of the cost (not covered). They can't find Costco. They
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>insurance company. Shouldn't matter what's being discussed, the doctor
>gets paid for her time and medical knowledge.

The doctor doesn't spend any time discussing medication, either.
The difference is that prescription meds have a built-in
infrastructure for handling them. The physician writes a simple
prescription. The pharmacist checks it and puts the pills in a
bottle along with a detailed description of the drug, its side
effects, warnings, blah, blah, blah.

For many people, the drug is even free, or nearly so.

But the physician doesn't spend much unpaid time either way.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
outrider - 12 May 2005 02:32 GMT
Really, physicians don't *have* much time to spend, either way. And
often, I think they just don't know what they are prescribing. We have
talked here at great length about how that might be improved with
separating medical education from pharmaceutical influence being
paramount in my mind.

There must have been a time when physicians knew a great deal about the
drugs they were prescribing. Now, there are so many drugs, and
physicians so pressured to see more patients (at least in Canada) that
even if they *did* know what all the drugs do and don't do they would
very likely not have the time for more than cursory explanation.

I think there must be drugs education for patients which is adjunct to
but separate from pharmaceutical advertising and physicians.

Perhaps those agencies mandated to protect public health; the FDA and
Health Canada, could step in here.

In my province one can call a 1-800 number to ask a nurse about a
health concern, or hear basic education tapes on simple conditions.

I think the options to physician's time, beyond the basics, are out
there. We just need to explore them.

I should add, I do not consider direct to consumer advertising to be
drugs *education*. Education should not be one sided with a goal of
selling something.

Zee
outrider - 12 May 2005 02:44 GMT
> Owen Lowe <noemails@myemail.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Adding to my post: I think supplement education should be included in
consumer drugs education. This way one would learn about safe and
approved options such as fishoil. If supplements come under FDA and
Health Canada mandate (which I think they should be ) then those that
are regulated will be easily included.

Zee
elgoog - 12 May 2005 04:46 GMT
> > Owen Lowe <noemails@myemail.com> wrote in part:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Zee

Supplements are already regulated by the FDA. They are classified as
"foods" not drugs, therefore they don't fall under the same rigorous
controls. They merely need to fulfill a few basic requirements with
labels and being essentially non-toxic dosage.

What you suggest, I believe, would be to reclassify supplements as
drugs/medications. In the USA, such a step would put them in a new
criteria of safety where they would need to prove with scientific
studies their effectiveness for some specific ailment. This would
essentially put the fish oil pills out of business. As it is now, you
can buy supplements to treat all sorts of ailments, but the supplements
themselves will make no claims as to medical merits on their labels.
It's up to the consumer to decide which ailment will be treated with
which supplement. Sure, you can find literature to guide you, but the
manufacturer's make no medical claims, thereby avoiding regulations
imposed on medicine.

So, on the one hand, what you say is smart and it makes sense. On the
other hand, it will never happen.
outrider - 12 May 2005 05:25 GMT
> > > Owen Lowe <noemails@myemail.com> wrote in part:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> So, on the one hand, what you say is smart and it makes sense. On the
> other hand, it will never happen.

I would like to see supplements regulated as drugs. We could then be
reasonably assured of quality and efficacy and know what is in the
bottle. As it stands now, consumerlabs.com for example tests many
supplements deficient in these measures, and many others contaminated
by lead and mercury. I also believe there are indeed instances where
supplement product labeling and advertising make curative or treatment
claims. Certainly it is implied, and that is why people are buying
them.

While not a user of supplements I think there must be some validity to
long time belief in their application. After all, there are teas used
still by native people to stop bleeding after childbirth, for one
example. I can also go out into the Arizona desert and tie one on with
peyote if so inclined. So why not have proper testing and evaluation
and bring these obviously potent substances into the pharmacological
realm.

Never happen? I think it already is. Look at marijuana. Once a toke,
then a brownie, now a spray for pain relief. It started as a plant.

However, if I am so against classification of these substances I can
still refuse to use aspirin and instead gnaw on willow bark to treat my
headache.

Zee
elgoog - 12 May 2005 05:45 GMT
> > > > Owen Lowe <noemails@myemail.com> wrote in part:
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>
> Zee

Thanks for the tip on consumerlabs.com. I've never fully trusted what
comes in those bottles. I mean suppose you by Hawthorn Berry, which
part of the plant are you really getting? Is there any Hawthorn Berry
in there? How fresh was it? What is lost in the processing? etc.

The vitamin and supplement industry must be huge (multi-billion dollar
business), I don't think they want scientific scrutiny. With anecdotes,
legends and customs they can sell hope in a bottle. Catechins found in
whole leaf green tea, might not be the same as green tea extract sold
in a pill.
Owen Lowe - 12 May 2005 07:42 GMT
> For many people, the drug is even free, or nearly so.

At least, sadly and frustratingly, many believe it to be so.

Signature

__________

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some
great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach
their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

calypso47@voyager.net - 11 May 2005 17:41 GMT
To the question if fish oil is being ignored by the scientific community,
a quick look at medline shows 3616 seperate scientific papers of which it
has some part.  If one reads the nutrition related journals it is clear
that it is not an avoided subject of research.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 11 May 2005 19:49 GMT
>>To the question if fish oil is being ignored by the scientific community,
a quick look at medline shows 3616 seperate scientific papers of which
it
has some part.  If one reads the nutrition related journals it is clear

that it is not an avoided subject of research. <<

COMMENT:

I didn't suggest that. Only that it's being (relatively) avoided by the
clinical community. Which is where it needs to go.  Safety and efficacy
have been demonstrated. What we lack right now is advertising, because
there's no money for it. And prescription health plan pay coverage. As
with Levitra or Crestor.

SBH
WhyDoYouWantToKnow@Incorrect.gov - 12 May 2005 07:10 GMT
>>>To the question if fish oil is being ignored by the scientific
>community,
>a quick look at medline shows 3616 seperate scientific papers of which
>it
>has some part.  If one reads the nutrition related journals it is clear
>that it is not an avoided subject of research. <<

>COMMENT:

>I didn't suggest that. Only that it's being (relatively) avoided by the
>clinical community. Which is where it needs to go.  Safety and efficacy
>have been demonstrated. What we lack right now is advertising, because
>there's no money for it. And prescription health plan pay coverage. As
>with Levitra or Crestor.

I think you mean Lipitor. Most prescription health plans won't pay for
Levitra.
 
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