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Medical Forum / General / General / March 2005

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Isolated brain

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Bruno Panetta - 17 Mar 2005 23:56 GMT
I have recently read Mary Roach's book "Stiff". Here she mentions the
experiments of Robert White, who implanted brains of monkeys and dogs
into other animals to keep the brains alive, even though they were not
connected to their original bodies anymore.
See

http://bennun.biz/interviews/drwhite.html

Now, I have three questions on this:

1. What would an isolated brain "feel" under such circumstances? Would
it feel the illusion of a body, and/or sensory data? Or would it be in
a constant dreaming state?

2. Would it be possible in some way to communicate with such a brain?

3. I know that this sounds very gruesome, but would it be possible for
the following procedure to be carried out? Right after I am pronounced
officially dead, a neurosurgeon removes the brain from my body and
implants it into a live monkey. Then I will still be "alive" and
thinking, even though I am officially dead. How long would that last?
Remember that the brain does not suffer rejection in the same way that
organs such as the heart and the liver do.

Thank you very much.

Bruno Panetta
tech27 - 18 Mar 2005 00:34 GMT
>I have recently read Mary Roach's book "Stiff". Here she mentions the
> experiments of Robert White, who implanted brains of monkeys and dogs
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> it feel the illusion of a body, and/or sensory data? Or would it be in
> a constant dreaming state?

Probably more like a drug induced stupor, similar to the way you must go
through life. You're reading FICTION, idiot.

> 2. Would it be possible in some way to communicate with such a brain?

Yeah, you could have a regular give and take conversation, like with any
other dog, cat or monkey.

> 3. I know that this sounds very gruesome, but would it be possible for
> the following procedure to be carried out? Right after I am pronounced
> officially dead, a neurosurgeon removes the brain from my body and
> implants it into a live monkey.

Sure it could be done, but the problem is that the monkey's body would
likely reject your brain, if not for physical reasons then certainly just
out of disgust.

Then I will still be "alive" and
> thinking, even though I am officially dead. How long would that last?

A long time. How long have you already been brain dead?

> Remember that the brain does not suffer rejection in the same way that
> organs such as the heart and the liver do.

That's correct. In your scenario the monkey would reject your brain because
it would be intellectually inferior, and unable to process the information
due to a lack of intelligence.

But consider this: Why don't you transplant your brain into horse? They are
quite stupid, so your brain should be able to cope, and then you would have
the cock you've always dreamed of.

> Thank you very much.
>
> Bruno Panetta
HCN - 18 Mar 2005 02:09 GMT
>>I have recently read Mary Roach's book "Stiff". Here she mentions the
>> experiments of Robert White, who implanted brains of monkeys and dogs
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Probably more like a drug induced stupor, similar to the way you must go
> through life. You're reading FICTION, idiot.
...

Are you saying that Mary Roach's book _Stiff_ is fiction?  It is this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393324826/ ... The Library of
Congress seems to think it is non-fiction:
http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v2=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=roach%2C+Mar
y&Search_Code=NAME_&PID=8910&CNT=25&HC=1

r norman - 18 Mar 2005 02:53 GMT
>>>I have recently read Mary Roach's book "Stiff". Here she mentions the
>>> experiments of Robert White, who implanted brains of monkeys and dogs
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>Congress seems to think it is non-fiction:
>http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v2=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=roach%2C+Mar
y&Search_Code=NAME_&PID=8910&CNT=25&HC=1

No, unfortunately it is not fiction.

Google on "Robert White brain transplant".  Note: it is TRANSplant,
not IMplant.  Brain implants are a whole different story.

It is generally agreed that White's work was grotesque and medically
inappropriate.  You can't transplant the brain -- it would be totally
disconnected from any aspect of the body and would be impossible to
communicate with.  What White did was essentially keep the head intact
and transplant the rest of the body.  The brain retained its
connections to the eyes, ears, nose, mouth, etc and apparently the
monkeys could see, hear, smell, and taste afterwards.

The result for a human transplant would be probably very similar to a
person with a high spinal cord injury with no control or sensation
whatsoever of anything below the neck.  Doing that to someone whose
brain was originally connected to a functional body would be so far
beyond the boundaries of any ethical consideration as to be beyond
discussion -- it would be at least the equivalent of deliberately
causing a high spinal injury.  Dr. White's argument is that people who
already have such severe injuries and whose bodies are deteriorating
(although they cannot feel it) would benefit from a "body transplant"
to keep the life support systems (circulatory, respiratory, excretory)
going and so help support the brain and head.  His argument is that
the brain/head combination would be no worse off after the body
transplant than it was before.  
Bruno Panetta - 18 Mar 2005 09:38 GMT
> No, unfortunately it is not fiction.
>
> Google on "Robert White brain transplant".  Note: it is TRANSplant,
> not IMplant.  Brain implants are a whole different story.

It's an implant actually, since the brain of the host organism was not
removed. The "donor" brain was merely implanted in the recipient's
abdomen, or neck.

BP
r norman - 18 Mar 2005 14:32 GMT
>> No, unfortunately it is not fiction.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>BP

Yes, but unfortunately "brain implants" now more commonly mean
electronic devices inserted into the brain.  So it is a poor choice as
a search term.  I should have expressed it better.
tech27 - 18 Mar 2005 17:37 GMT
> No, unfortunately it is not fiction.
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> the brain/head combination would be no worse off after the body
> transplant than it was before.

I'm aware of all that, and I'd be happy to discuss it in the context of
scientific and medical curiosity, as well as ethics and morality, but
clearly the book that the OP referred to is just for entertainment.
Pondering questions like "If my head was transplanted onto a dog's body
would I have the urge to lick my balls?" are too silly to waste time on.
Obviously, the OP's main concern IS that he WOULD be able to lick himself,
as he wishes to now, AND enjoy it.
Bruno Panetta - 19 Mar 2005 01:37 GMT
> I'm aware of all that, and I'd be happy to discuss it in the context of
> scientific and medical curiosity, as well as ethics and morality, but

> clearly the book that the OP referred to is just for entertainment.

Ok, let's discuss it in this context and forget all about Ms Roach's
book from now on (by the way, what book?). Let's look instead at this
article which Robert White published in 1986:

http://itest.slu.edu/dloads/80s/braincon.txt

Here is an interesting excerpt on White's isolated brain preparations:

----
By definition, to isolate the brain required neurogenic
separation and, therefore, not only the spinal cord, but all
of the cranial nerves must be severed; as a consequence, the
inner organizational matrix of the brain is no longer receiving
an inrush of information from the peripheral nervous system. It
is exclusively dependent on hormonal secretion via the
circulation. Obviously the brain is also unable to "express
itself" through nerve pathways and, thus, can only remain in
contact via the release of neurohormones into the vascular
system.

In recent experiments, in which a single cranial nerve complex
was purposefully preserved, for example, the auditory or optic
nerve, it was demonstrated that with either sound or light
stimulation, the appropriate neuroanatomical connections in the
isolated brain remained intact and, when the appropriate areas of
cerebral cortex (auditory or visual cortex) were instrumented
with surface electrodes appropriate recordings were recorded
strongly suggesting the preservation and functioning of these
intimate and delicate neural fiber tracts and connections
subserving these modalities of sensation. Once again, however,
this did not provide evidence that the preparation in the
isolated state was capable of processing or appreciating this
information.
----

My serious question is: what do you think such an "isolated brain
preparation" would feel, if it were indeed able to think? Would it be
confined to memories, a bit like the subject of an "isolation chamber"
experiment, or could there be some sort of "fake" sensory input, a bit
like the phenomenon of phantom limbs in an amputee? Some people with
locked in syndrome have described their lives as consisting of memories
only (e.g. JD Bauby's "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly"). One would
expect this to be felt even more strongly by an isolated brain, if it
were able to think.

Bruno
tech27 - 18 Mar 2005 17:29 GMT
Let's look at the table of contents:

Chapter 8: How To Know If You're Dead
Beating heart cadavers, live burial, and the scientific search for the soul.

Chapter 9: Just A Head
Decapitation, Reanimation, and the human head transplant.

Chapter 10: Eat Me
Medicinal cannibalism and the case of the human dumplings.

I guess if you call The National Enquirer non-fiction then I'll change my
comments from "Fiction" to "Bullshit".

>>>I have recently read Mary Roach's book "Stiff". Here she mentions the
>>> experiments of Robert White, who implanted brains of monkeys and dogs
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> of Congress seems to think it is non-fiction:
> http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v2=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=roach%2C+Mar
y&Search_Code=NAME_&PID=8910&CNT=25&HC=1
r norman - 18 Mar 2005 18:14 GMT
>Let's look at the table of contents:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>I guess if you call The National Enquirer non-fiction then I'll change my
>comments from "Fiction" to "Bullshit".

You obviously don't know anything about book writing and publishing.

The plain fact is that the book is non-fiction and actually contains
some material that is  rather informative and accurate about cadavers.
It is distinctly written in a style meant to entice and attract a
popular readership, and it was successful at that.  The author is,
self-admittedly, a goofball type of humorist, but this work is not as
totally ridiculous as you make it out to be.

Some poor reader had a legitimate, albeit rather naive, question about
brain transplants, and you ridicule him unmercifully.  Why don't you
try educating, instead.
tech27 - 19 Mar 2005 19:44 GMT
>>Let's look at the table of contents:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> You obviously don't know anything about book writing and publishing.

Au contrare.

> The plain fact is that the book is non-fiction and actually contains
> some material that is  rather informative and accurate about cadavers.
> It is distinctly written in a style meant to entice and attract a
> popular readership, and it was successful at that.  The author is,
> self-admittedly, a goofball type of humorist, but this work is not as
> totally ridiculous as you make it out to be.

I never said it was ridiculous. It's probably an interesting book and a good
read.

> Some poor reader had a legitimate, albeit rather naive, question about
> brain transplants, and you ridicule him unmercifully.  Why don't you
> try educating, instead.

Well, it's not as much fun, and I'm also an a.shole. But what bothers me is
that so many people ask stupid (or good) questions in a NG, when they could
find so much information on the internet. The OP is just lazy in my opinion.
I ALWAYS try to "educate" myself first, then if there are things I still
don't understand or can't find I ask here.
Bruno Panetta - 20 Mar 2005 04:39 GMT
> Au contrare

It's "au contraire"

Bruno
tech27 - 20 Mar 2005 09:57 GMT
>> Au contrare
>
> It's "au contraire"
>
> Bruno

Pretentious? Moi?
Bruno Panetta - 20 Mar 2005 04:49 GMT
r norman scripsit:

> Some poor reader had a legitimate, albeit rather naive, question about
> brain transplants, and you ridicule him unmercifully.  Why don't you
> try educating, instead.

I don't care about that. Winding up people on usenet is one of my
favourite hobbies, although this was one of my few serious posts. Well,
serious-ish. I admit I deliberately phrased it in a very provocative
way, and I knew there was no way to answer it. For a long time I have
been interested in locked in syndrome, and the situation outlined in
White's articles is in a sense the ultimate locked in state: no imputs,
no outputs, no way to communicate with the "isolated brain". Of course
the transplant is not really necessary, severing the cranial nerves
would obtain the same results.
Incidentally, that would be an interesting punishment for some heinous
criminals: induce the "ultimate locked in state", then pump their
bodies full of chemicals known to produce a state of anguish and fear.

Bruno
tech27 - 20 Mar 2005 10:02 GMT
>r norman scripsit:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I don't care about that. Winding up people on usenet is one of my
> favourite hobbies, although this was one of my few serious posts.

If that's true you have some serious problems.

Well,
> serious-ish. I admit I deliberately phrased it in a very provocative
> way, and I knew there was no way to answer it.

Thanks for admitting that you are an idiot.

For a long time I have
> been interested in locked in syndrome, and the situation outlined in
> White's articles is in a sense the ultimate locked in state: no imputs,
> no outputs, no way to communicate with the "isolated brain". Of course
> the transplant is not really necessary, severing the cranial nerves
> would obtain the same results.

Is that what happened to you?

> Incidentally, that would be an interesting punishment for some heinous
> criminals: induce the "ultimate locked in state", then pump their
> bodies full of chemicals known to produce a state of anguish and fear.

Too bad you are too young and missed your calling. Dr. Mengele would have
loved you as an intern, and you could have been a brilliant "experimental
physician" under the Nazi regime.

I hope you experience punishment that is as "interesting" as you propose.
Bruno Panetta - 22 Mar 2005 12:01 GMT
tech27 blurted:

> > I don't care about that. Winding up people on usenet is one of my
> > favourite hobbies, although this was one of my few serious posts.
>
> If that's true you have some serious problems.

I am just taking some very light medication, nothing more.

> Thanks for admitting that you are an idiot.

I don't think I am. I have written two novels ("The Ring of the Pharao"
and "Brutus Avenged") and although I haven't found a publisher for
them, I am quite confident that I will. An "idiot" would not have
managed that...

> Too bad you are too young and missed your calling. Dr. Mengele would have
> loved you as an intern, and you could have been a brilliant "experimental
> physician" under the Nazi regime.

There's no need to get violent, I was just making a proposal. You are
also missing the obvious commercial possibilities. Suppose a relative
of yours is killed by a murderous madman. He gets sent to prison or
sentenced to death. His death is relatively painless (either from old
age or lethal injection). End of the story? No. Because YOU will be
able to purchase his brain and get it removed just after a government
physician has pronounced the beast "dead". Then you can get the brain
implanted in the body of a monkey (better if the monkey is paralyzed
from the neck down, so it won't cause any trouble). Then the fun
starts: you pump the monkey full of chemicals guaranteed to give him
hell (stuff inducing fear and anxiety, plus some LSD as well). Until
the monkey's heart lasts, his "life" is guaranteed to be a living
nightmare! Then if you can afford it you can have the process repeated
with another monkey. Bit tough on the monkey, but then again not much
worse than what normally happens in ordinary research laboratories.
So, let's get the ball rolling, I say!

Bruno Panetta
 
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