Medical Forum / General / General / March 2005
Isolated brain
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Bruno Panetta - 17 Mar 2005 23:56 GMT I have recently read Mary Roach's book "Stiff". Here she mentions the experiments of Robert White, who implanted brains of monkeys and dogs into other animals to keep the brains alive, even though they were not connected to their original bodies anymore. See
http://bennun.biz/interviews/drwhite.html
Now, I have three questions on this:
1. What would an isolated brain "feel" under such circumstances? Would it feel the illusion of a body, and/or sensory data? Or would it be in a constant dreaming state?
2. Would it be possible in some way to communicate with such a brain?
3. I know that this sounds very gruesome, but would it be possible for the following procedure to be carried out? Right after I am pronounced officially dead, a neurosurgeon removes the brain from my body and implants it into a live monkey. Then I will still be "alive" and thinking, even though I am officially dead. How long would that last? Remember that the brain does not suffer rejection in the same way that organs such as the heart and the liver do.
Thank you very much.
Bruno Panetta
tech27 - 18 Mar 2005 00:34 GMT >I have recently read Mary Roach's book "Stiff". Here she mentions the > experiments of Robert White, who implanted brains of monkeys and dogs [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > it feel the illusion of a body, and/or sensory data? Or would it be in > a constant dreaming state? Probably more like a drug induced stupor, similar to the way you must go through life. You're reading FICTION, idiot.
> 2. Would it be possible in some way to communicate with such a brain? Yeah, you could have a regular give and take conversation, like with any other dog, cat or monkey.
> 3. I know that this sounds very gruesome, but would it be possible for > the following procedure to be carried out? Right after I am pronounced > officially dead, a neurosurgeon removes the brain from my body and > implants it into a live monkey. Sure it could be done, but the problem is that the monkey's body would likely reject your brain, if not for physical reasons then certainly just out of disgust.
Then I will still be "alive" and
> thinking, even though I am officially dead. How long would that last? A long time. How long have you already been brain dead?
> Remember that the brain does not suffer rejection in the same way that > organs such as the heart and the liver do. That's correct. In your scenario the monkey would reject your brain because it would be intellectually inferior, and unable to process the information due to a lack of intelligence.
But consider this: Why don't you transplant your brain into horse? They are quite stupid, so your brain should be able to cope, and then you would have the cock you've always dreamed of.
> Thank you very much. > > Bruno Panetta HCN - 18 Mar 2005 02:09 GMT >>I have recently read Mary Roach's book "Stiff". Here she mentions the >> experiments of Robert White, who implanted brains of monkeys and dogs [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Probably more like a drug induced stupor, similar to the way you must go > through life. You're reading FICTION, idiot. ...
Are you saying that Mary Roach's book _Stiff_ is fiction? It is this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393324826/ ... The Library of Congress seems to think it is non-fiction: http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v2=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=roach%2C+Mar y&Search_Code=NAME_&PID=8910&CNT=25&HC=1
r norman - 18 Mar 2005 02:53 GMT >>>I have recently read Mary Roach's book "Stiff". Here she mentions the >>> experiments of Robert White, who implanted brains of monkeys and dogs [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Congress seems to think it is non-fiction: >http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v2=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=roach%2C+Mar y&Search_Code=NAME_&PID=8910&CNT=25&HC=1 No, unfortunately it is not fiction.
Google on "Robert White brain transplant". Note: it is TRANSplant, not IMplant. Brain implants are a whole different story.
It is generally agreed that White's work was grotesque and medically inappropriate. You can't transplant the brain -- it would be totally disconnected from any aspect of the body and would be impossible to communicate with. What White did was essentially keep the head intact and transplant the rest of the body. The brain retained its connections to the eyes, ears, nose, mouth, etc and apparently the monkeys could see, hear, smell, and taste afterwards.
The result for a human transplant would be probably very similar to a person with a high spinal cord injury with no control or sensation whatsoever of anything below the neck. Doing that to someone whose brain was originally connected to a functional body would be so far beyond the boundaries of any ethical consideration as to be beyond discussion -- it would be at least the equivalent of deliberately causing a high spinal injury. Dr. White's argument is that people who already have such severe injuries and whose bodies are deteriorating (although they cannot feel it) would benefit from a "body transplant" to keep the life support systems (circulatory, respiratory, excretory) going and so help support the brain and head. His argument is that the brain/head combination would be no worse off after the body transplant than it was before.
Bruno Panetta - 18 Mar 2005 09:38 GMT > No, unfortunately it is not fiction. > > Google on "Robert White brain transplant". Note: it is TRANSplant, > not IMplant. Brain implants are a whole different story. It's an implant actually, since the brain of the host organism was not removed. The "donor" brain was merely implanted in the recipient's abdomen, or neck.
BP
r norman - 18 Mar 2005 14:32 GMT >> No, unfortunately it is not fiction. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >BP Yes, but unfortunately "brain implants" now more commonly mean electronic devices inserted into the brain. So it is a poor choice as a search term. I should have expressed it better.
tech27 - 18 Mar 2005 17:37 GMT > No, unfortunately it is not fiction. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the brain/head combination would be no worse off after the body > transplant than it was before. I'm aware of all that, and I'd be happy to discuss it in the context of scientific and medical curiosity, as well as ethics and morality, but clearly the book that the OP referred to is just for entertainment. Pondering questions like "If my head was transplanted onto a dog's body would I have the urge to lick my balls?" are too silly to waste time on. Obviously, the OP's main concern IS that he WOULD be able to lick himself, as he wishes to now, AND enjoy it.
Bruno Panetta - 19 Mar 2005 01:37 GMT > I'm aware of all that, and I'd be happy to discuss it in the context of > scientific and medical curiosity, as well as ethics and morality, but
> clearly the book that the OP referred to is just for entertainment. Ok, let's discuss it in this context and forget all about Ms Roach's book from now on (by the way, what book?). Let's look instead at this article which Robert White published in 1986:
http://itest.slu.edu/dloads/80s/braincon.txt
Here is an interesting excerpt on White's isolated brain preparations:
---- By definition, to isolate the brain required neurogenic separation and, therefore, not only the spinal cord, but all of the cranial nerves must be severed; as a consequence, the inner organizational matrix of the brain is no longer receiving an inrush of information from the peripheral nervous system. It is exclusively dependent on hormonal secretion via the circulation. Obviously the brain is also unable to "express itself" through nerve pathways and, thus, can only remain in contact via the release of neurohormones into the vascular system.
In recent experiments, in which a single cranial nerve complex was purposefully preserved, for example, the auditory or optic nerve, it was demonstrated that with either sound or light stimulation, the appropriate neuroanatomical connections in the isolated brain remained intact and, when the appropriate areas of cerebral cortex (auditory or visual cortex) were instrumented with surface electrodes appropriate recordings were recorded strongly suggesting the preservation and functioning of these intimate and delicate neural fiber tracts and connections subserving these modalities of sensation. Once again, however, this did not provide evidence that the preparation in the isolated state was capable of processing or appreciating this information. ----
My serious question is: what do you think such an "isolated brain preparation" would feel, if it were indeed able to think? Would it be confined to memories, a bit like the subject of an "isolation chamber" experiment, or could there be some sort of "fake" sensory input, a bit like the phenomenon of phantom limbs in an amputee? Some people with locked in syndrome have described their lives as consisting of memories only (e.g. JD Bauby's "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly"). One would expect this to be felt even more strongly by an isolated brain, if it were able to think.
Bruno
tech27 - 18 Mar 2005 17:29 GMT Let's look at the table of contents:
Chapter 8: How To Know If You're Dead Beating heart cadavers, live burial, and the scientific search for the soul.
Chapter 9: Just A Head Decapitation, Reanimation, and the human head transplant.
Chapter 10: Eat Me Medicinal cannibalism and the case of the human dumplings.
I guess if you call The National Enquirer non-fiction then I'll change my comments from "Fiction" to "Bullshit".
>>>I have recently read Mary Roach's book "Stiff". Here she mentions the >>> experiments of Robert White, who implanted brains of monkeys and dogs [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > of Congress seems to think it is non-fiction: > http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v2=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=roach%2C+Mar y&Search_Code=NAME_&PID=8910&CNT=25&HC=1 r norman - 18 Mar 2005 18:14 GMT >Let's look at the table of contents: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I guess if you call The National Enquirer non-fiction then I'll change my >comments from "Fiction" to "Bullshit". You obviously don't know anything about book writing and publishing.
The plain fact is that the book is non-fiction and actually contains some material that is rather informative and accurate about cadavers. It is distinctly written in a style meant to entice and attract a popular readership, and it was successful at that. The author is, self-admittedly, a goofball type of humorist, but this work is not as totally ridiculous as you make it out to be.
Some poor reader had a legitimate, albeit rather naive, question about brain transplants, and you ridicule him unmercifully. Why don't you try educating, instead.
tech27 - 19 Mar 2005 19:44 GMT >>Let's look at the table of contents: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You obviously don't know anything about book writing and publishing. Au contrare.
> The plain fact is that the book is non-fiction and actually contains > some material that is rather informative and accurate about cadavers. > It is distinctly written in a style meant to entice and attract a > popular readership, and it was successful at that. The author is, > self-admittedly, a goofball type of humorist, but this work is not as > totally ridiculous as you make it out to be. I never said it was ridiculous. It's probably an interesting book and a good read.
> Some poor reader had a legitimate, albeit rather naive, question about > brain transplants, and you ridicule him unmercifully. Why don't you > try educating, instead. Well, it's not as much fun, and I'm also an a.shole. But what bothers me is that so many people ask stupid (or good) questions in a NG, when they could find so much information on the internet. The OP is just lazy in my opinion. I ALWAYS try to "educate" myself first, then if there are things I still don't understand or can't find I ask here.
Bruno Panetta - 20 Mar 2005 04:39 GMT > Au contrare It's "au contraire"
Bruno
tech27 - 20 Mar 2005 09:57 GMT >> Au contrare > > It's "au contraire" > > Bruno Pretentious? Moi?
Bruno Panetta - 20 Mar 2005 04:49 GMT r norman scripsit:
> Some poor reader had a legitimate, albeit rather naive, question about > brain transplants, and you ridicule him unmercifully. Why don't you > try educating, instead. I don't care about that. Winding up people on usenet is one of my favourite hobbies, although this was one of my few serious posts. Well, serious-ish. I admit I deliberately phrased it in a very provocative way, and I knew there was no way to answer it. For a long time I have been interested in locked in syndrome, and the situation outlined in White's articles is in a sense the ultimate locked in state: no imputs, no outputs, no way to communicate with the "isolated brain". Of course the transplant is not really necessary, severing the cranial nerves would obtain the same results. Incidentally, that would be an interesting punishment for some heinous criminals: induce the "ultimate locked in state", then pump their bodies full of chemicals known to produce a state of anguish and fear.
Bruno
tech27 - 20 Mar 2005 10:02 GMT >r norman scripsit: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't care about that. Winding up people on usenet is one of my > favourite hobbies, although this was one of my few serious posts. If that's true you have some serious problems.
Well,
> serious-ish. I admit I deliberately phrased it in a very provocative > way, and I knew there was no way to answer it. Thanks for admitting that you are an idiot.
For a long time I have
> been interested in locked in syndrome, and the situation outlined in > White's articles is in a sense the ultimate locked in state: no imputs, > no outputs, no way to communicate with the "isolated brain". Of course > the transplant is not really necessary, severing the cranial nerves > would obtain the same results. Is that what happened to you?
> Incidentally, that would be an interesting punishment for some heinous > criminals: induce the "ultimate locked in state", then pump their > bodies full of chemicals known to produce a state of anguish and fear. Too bad you are too young and missed your calling. Dr. Mengele would have loved you as an intern, and you could have been a brilliant "experimental physician" under the Nazi regime.
I hope you experience punishment that is as "interesting" as you propose.
Bruno Panetta - 22 Mar 2005 12:01 GMT tech27 blurted:
> > I don't care about that. Winding up people on usenet is one of my > > favourite hobbies, although this was one of my few serious posts. > > If that's true you have some serious problems. I am just taking some very light medication, nothing more.
> Thanks for admitting that you are an idiot. I don't think I am. I have written two novels ("The Ring of the Pharao" and "Brutus Avenged") and although I haven't found a publisher for them, I am quite confident that I will. An "idiot" would not have managed that...
> Too bad you are too young and missed your calling. Dr. Mengele would have > loved you as an intern, and you could have been a brilliant "experimental > physician" under the Nazi regime. There's no need to get violent, I was just making a proposal. You are also missing the obvious commercial possibilities. Suppose a relative of yours is killed by a murderous madman. He gets sent to prison or sentenced to death. His death is relatively painless (either from old age or lethal injection). End of the story? No. Because YOU will be able to purchase his brain and get it removed just after a government physician has pronounced the beast "dead". Then you can get the brain implanted in the body of a monkey (better if the monkey is paralyzed from the neck down, so it won't cause any trouble). Then the fun starts: you pump the monkey full of chemicals guaranteed to give him hell (stuff inducing fear and anxiety, plus some LSD as well). Until the monkey's heart lasts, his "life" is guaranteed to be a living nightmare! Then if you can afford it you can have the process repeated with another monkey. Bit tough on the monkey, but then again not much worse than what normally happens in ordinary research laboratories. So, let's get the ball rolling, I say!
Bruno Panetta
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