Medical Forum / General / General / March 2005
Vitamin E, heart disease and false logic...?
|
|
Thread rating:  |
orders@squittis.com - 16 Mar 2005 00:46 GMT Vitamin E, heart disease and false logic...?
Just heard a report by 'some' study that suggests that vitamin e is not ALWAYS good for heart patients....and then the announcement says, the patient is now listening to his doctor and taking his perscription drugs....
Seems like a manipulation of logic...for no drug, perscription or other is 'always' good for you...even water...too much and you will drown...
Caesar J. B. Squitti
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 16 Mar 2005 05:03 GMT Here's the abstract of the study, which is called HOPE-TOO (HOPE-The Ongoing Outcomes = HOPE-TOO . It's an ongoing bit of the HOPE trial (Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation). This is the biggest, longest prospective blinded and placebo-controlled prospective trial of d-alpha tocopherol acetate. Basically, vitamin E per se as the d-alpha tocopherol has been found to do nothing particularly good in heart disease or diabetes. Worse than that, it increases chance of congestive heart failure (albeit of a probably mild type). My comments are appended.
"Effects of Long-term Vitamin E Supplementation on Cardiovascular Events and Cancer: A Randomized Controlled Trial" The HOPE and HOPE-TOO Trial Investigators* JAMA, Vol. 293, pp. 1338-47 (March 15, 2005).
ABSTRACT:
Context: Experimental and epidemiological data suggest that Vitamin E supplementation may prevent cancer and cardiovascular events. Clinical trials have generally failed to confirm benefits, possibly due to their relatively short duration.
Objective: To evaluate whether long-term supplementation with Vitamin E decreases the risk of cancer, cancer death, and major cardiovascular events.
Design, Setting, and Patients: A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled international trial (the initial Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation [HOPE] trial conducted between December 21, 1993 and April 15, 1999) of patients at least 55 years old with vascular disease or diabetes mellitus was extended (HOPE-The Ongoing Outcomes [HOPE-TOO]) between April 16, 1999 and May 26, 2003.
Of the initial 267 HOPE centers that had enrolled 9,541 patients, 174 centers participated in the HOPE-TOO trial. Of 7,030 patients enrolled at these centers, 916 were deceased at the beginning of the extension, 1,382 refused participation, 3,994 continued to take the study intervention, and 738 agreed to passive follow-up. Median duration of follow-up was 7.0 years.
Intervention: Daily dose of natural source Vitamin E (400 IU) [d-alpha tocopherol acetate] or matching placebo.
Main Outcome Measures: Primary outcomes included cancer incidence, cancer deaths, and major cardiovascular events (myocardial infarction, stroke, and cardiovascular death). Secondary outcomes included heart failure, unstable angina, and revascularizations.
Results: Among all HOPE patients, there were no significant differences in the primary analysis: for cancer incidence, there were 552 patients (11.6%) in the Vitamin E group vs 586 (12.3%) in the placebo group (relative risk [RR], 0.94; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.84-1.06; P = .30); for cancer deaths, 156 (3.3%) vs 178 (3.7%), respectively (RR, 0.88; 95% CI, 0.71-1.09; P = .24); and for major cardiovascular events, 1022 (21.5%) vs 985 (20.6%), respectively (RR, 1.04; 95% CI, 0.96-1.14; P = .34). Patients in the Vitamin E group had a higher risk of heart failure (RR, 1.13; 95% CI, 1.01-1.26; P = .03) and hospitalization for heart failure (RR, 1.21; 95% CI, 1.00-1.47; P = .045). Similarly, among patients enrolled at the centers participating in the HOPE-TOO trial, there were no differences in cancer incidence, cancer deaths, and major cardiovascular events, but higher rates of heart failure and hospitalizations for heart failure.
Conclusion: In patients with vascular disease or Diabetes Mellitus, long-term Vitamin E supplementation does not prevent cancer nor major cardiovascular events and may increase the risk for heart failure.
==============================
COMMENT by S. Harris:
In the initial shorter duration version of the HOPE trial 3 years ago (>1800 patients per group), congestive heart failure (CHF) came closest of any endpoint to being greater in the d-alpha tocopherol acetate 400 IU group, with the RR 1.21 and confidence limits 1.0 - 1.46) p = 0.05. Hospitalization for CHF didn't come close to significance at p = 0.51. With larger numbers and longer followup, both these are now significant in the HOPE-TOO.
The interesting thing is that CHF is usually a consequence of coronary disease and old MIs. But the number of MIs and other coronary events really didn't come close to being significantly altered by the vitamin E in the full study above (which is the only one I have access to, right now). The closest of anything was stroke, which had a p of 0.2. None of the cardiac stuff was much different from RR =1, so it does NOT look like it was there, but just isn't showing above the noise due to power problems.
So what's going on? Of course I have no idea. But this kind of "congestive heart failure" is not as bad as it sounds to the layman, if if doesn't increase deaths and doesn't result from any detectable increase in coronary events. It basically means retention of fluid in feet or lungs, and hospitalization means there's enough retention in the lungs to cause problems. We have no way to know if in this study, the extra cases were due to some global weakening of cardiac function, or just some odd changes in salt handling and retention (which would of course be less worrisome). We do know from this and many other studies that blood pressure and renal function (at least, of the gross filtration sort) are not affected at all by doses of vitamin E in this range. So it's a mystery. Still, I'm not going to pretend even this non-MI-related CHF is okay, although in many practices it would simply mean an adjustment of diuretic. The bottom line is the only thing vitamin E does for cardiac patients we can really be sure of, is something (somewhat) bad.
The main value of these studies is to show that vitamin E as the d-alpha form, in doses large enough to raise blood levels by 70%, has NO effect on heart disease progression. Or on diabetes progression. Not even a hint of it, in a placebo controlled study of many thousands of people extending many years. I have a whole book (by Wilfred Shute, M.D. with Harald Taub: _Vitamin E for Ailing and Healthy Hearts_ 1969, with the 11th paperback printing I have from 1977) claiming that this very d-alpha tocopherol in similar amounts, is a veritable cure-all for all cardiac ailments. These claims by the Shute brothers go all the way back to the 1940's. Every chapter of every health book since the Shutes started blowing this horn, has had an enormous amount of junk repetition of all these claims.
Well, these Shute claims appear to be wishful thinking. The real shame is that it's taken the "medical establishment" half a century to prove it. And no, there's still no good prospective evidence that vitamin E prevents cancer in humans, either. (Frankly, I'm a little more hopeful that selenium will prove out, there. And possibly even vitamin C.) Vitamin E per se in reasonable and traditional supplemental amounts (which 400 IU is) certainly doesn't affect onset of diabetes, or progression of diabetic renal disease. We know that from the HOPE trial also. I would have wagered a modest amount of money that this wouldn't be so, from what I know of oxidative mechanisms in diabetes. But I'd have been wrong. That's why we do these studies.
And no, the HOPE trial goes beyond showing that vitamin E just doesn't heal the diseased-of-heart (though the Shutes claimed just that). Most of the HOPE enrollees were not clinically ill, though they did have coronary disease. If vitamin E even slowed progression of those with disease, it would have been seen here. It wasn't. The idea that vitamin E prevents ONSET of coronary disease in totally healthy people who don't have any at all (if such adults exist in our society), *even though* it doesn't at all effect progression of disease in people who already have some, is very far fetched. I think it's grasping at straws, in fact. I don't believe it, and can't imagine why anybody would.
Here's the full text of the first phase of the HOPE trial, for the vitamin E side (as you know, there was another side looking at preventive effects of giving the ACE inhibitor ramepril). http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/11/1919 SBH
montygram - 16 Mar 2005 07:32 GMT It's like these guys never read the scientific literature. I cited a yet to be published study discussed on Dr. Mercola's site in my 2002 book. And similar claims like that have been made in the past. Basicially, just like the phrase "saturated fat," there is no such thing as "vitamin E." Instead, there are at least 4 major molecules that are classified as "vitamin E," and if you get too much of one, it can interfere with the actions of the others. Mostly, "vitamin E" supplementation is done with the alpha form, which can deplete the gamma form, and that can account for more deaths of particular causes. Just avoid substances that cause oxidative stress, like unsaturated fatty acids and oxidized cholesterol, and eat antioxidant rich foods like blueberries and dark chocolate, and you'll do your body a big favor.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 16 Mar 2005 21:26 GMT Look, if this study had been done with dl-alpha, critics would be complaining it wasn't done with the ddd natural isomer. And since it was done with the d,d,d, now they're complaining it wasn't done with the proper "natural mix" of alpha, beta, gamma, and delta isomers (whatever *that* is-- since it varies widely within different foods and cultural food mixes, and the body can, and does, methylate the more common natural gamma to more-needed and protein carrier specific alpha).
And if the study *had* been done with a 4 isomer mix, the critics would be complaining that the negative result and the health problems were due to the fact that it wasn't done with the 4 isomer mix with chocolate sauce and a blueberry on top. It never ends. If *that* had been the protocol, the critics would pooh pooh it for omitting a sprinkling of sesame seeds, rice tocotrienols, and a partridge in a pear tree.
Look, you health-gurus. Call your shots BEFOREHAND. Don't spend decades playing up people like the Shutes, and then when they are proven totally wrong, claim you never heard of them, and certainly didn't support their views. Sheesh.
SBH
Juhana Harju - 16 Mar 2005 22:14 GMT :: Look, if this study had been done with dl-alpha, critics would be :: complaining it wasn't done with the ddd natural isomer. And since it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: more common natural gamma to more-needed and protein carrier specific :: alpha). [...] AFAIK, many, perhaps most health benefits of dietary vitamin E are associated with gamma-tocopherol. Why do they keep doing studies with supplemental alpha-tocopherol and even worse, dl-alpha? It makes me suspect that they want to get negative results.
 Signature Juhana
elgoog - 16 Mar 2005 22:22 GMT Please, enlighten me. Not all vitamin E supplements are created equal, or the vitamin E in supplement form is not equivalent to that found in natural food sources? Are you saying, one or the other or both? Maybe neither?
Juhana Harju - 16 Mar 2005 22:48 GMT :: Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com wrote: :::: Look, if this study had been done with dl-alpha, critics would be [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] :: supplemental alpha-tocopherol and even worse, dl-alpha? It makes me :: suspect that they want to get negative results. This study is also worth of looking.
Huang HY, Appel LJ. Supplementation of diets with alpha-tocopherol reduces serum concentrations of gamma- and delta-tocopherol in humans. J Nutr. 2003 Oct;133(10):3137-40.
Department of Epidemiology, Bloomberg School of Public Health, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA.
Despite promising evidence from in vitro experiments and observational studies, supplementation of diets with alpha-tocopherol has not reduced the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer in most large-scale clinical trials. One plausible explanation is that the potential health benefits of alpha-tocopherol supplements are offset by deleterious changes in the bioavailability and/or bioactivity of other nutrients. We studied the effects of supplementing diets with RRR-alpha-tocopheryl acetate (400 IU/d) on serum concentrations of gamma- and delta-tocopherol in a randomized, placebo-controlled trial in 184 adult nonsmokers. Outcomes were changes in serum concentrations of gamma- and delta-tocopherol from baseline to the end of the 2-mo experimental period. Compared with placebo, supplementation with alpha-tocopherol reduced serum gamma-tocopherol concentrations by a median change of 58% [95% CI = (51%, 66%), P < 0.0001], and reduced the number of individuals with detectable delta-tocopherol concentrations (P < 0.0001). Consistent with trial results were the results from baseline cross-sectional analyses, in which prior vitamin E supplement users had significantly lower serum gamma-tocopherol than nonusers. In view of the potential benefits of gamma- and delta-tocopherol, the efficacy of alpha-tocopherol supplementation may be reduced due to decreases in serum gamma- and delta-tocopherol levels. Additional research is clearly warranted. PMID: 14519797
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=14519797
 Signature Juhana
Robert - 17 Mar 2005 00:07 GMT Show me the money. Give something that works and don't tell me why it doesn't work.
> :: Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com wrote: > :::: Look, if this study had been done with dl-alpha, critics would be [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > serum gamma- and delta-tocopherol levels. Additional research is clearly > warranted. PMID: 14519797 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=14519797
Robert - 17 Mar 2005 00:05 GMT Totally agree with you on that one. One important exception though and it is one important one. If it works then it doesn't matter. It is important to be critical of studies but it is hard to argue with success especially if it is proven over and over again. Even if the logic does not go along with why it works or why it shouldn't work. You can't argue with success.
> Look, if this study had been done with dl-alpha, critics would be > complaining it wasn't done with the ddd natural isomer. And since it [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > SBH John Que - 17 Mar 2005 03:50 GMT Certainly the Shutes were proponents of vitamin E in all is forms. They used very large doses in combination with the Levine chair therapy. They were proponents of of early ambulation of heart attack patients. As I recall the standard of care in their day was a months bed rest. The chair therapy involved getting the patient in a position in which the legs raised relative to the heart. They also have been rather aggressive with the aspirin, but I reach on this later point. While they advocated E as preventive, they were using it in acute cases.
What has amused me through the years is that the Shutes gave vitamin E with only the greatest care (low titrated dosed) in congestive heart cases. And the opponents to the use of vitamin E have referred to this view without crediting the Shutes. Repeating the warning but not citing the source. So it seems both camps draw from the Shutes and forget them at the same time.
At 6 ounces of wine with rice and squash and pickled bell peppers in the belly..........JQ
> Look, if this study had been done with dl-alpha, critics would be > complaining it wasn't done with the ddd natural isomer. And since it [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > SBH DZ - 16 Mar 2005 21:52 GMT > It's like these guys never read the scientific literature. Quite the opposite.
> I cited a yet to be published study discussed on Dr. Mercola's site > in my 2002 book. And similar claims like that have been made in the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cholesterol, and eat antioxidant rich foods like blueberries and > dark chocolate, and you'll do your body a big favor. tcarter2@elp.rr.com - 17 Mar 2005 00:55 GMT Hi,
> Here's the abstract of the study, which is called HOPE-TOO (HOPE-The > Ongoing Outcomes = HOPE-TOO . It's an ongoing bit of the HOPE trial [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > heart failure (albeit of a probably mild type). My comments are > appended. And in this study there was a 7% reduction in total mortality despite the fact that the vit. E was given to a group in which 59% were taking aspirin. As I've explained before both vit E and aspirin antagonize vit K and BOTH independently cause blood thinning, internal bleeding, and haemorrhagic stroke. The combination of the two together in clinical trials always results in mildly unfavorable or null results unless given with sufficient C (at least a two to one ratio) to swamp the negative effects of the two ganging up on vit K, a vitamin of which nearly everyone is deficient. Three trials of E alone have been done in populations that don't take aspirin and all three showed benefits. There is little or no inconsistency in the literature. Once more I will spell it out for you. Four trials of E with hi dose C-all favorable. These are the only four. Three trials of E without C or aspirin----- all favorable but less so. I think these are the only ones. Can anyone prove me wrong? Quite a few trials of E with people taking aspirin, or beta carotene in smokers, or deprenyl (which is associated with excess mortality in humans)-------UNfavorable.
This is the literature on the randomized, placebo controlled, intervention trials of vit. E. This is the only place you will see it properly summarized. I'm not too happy about supporting thousands of clinical researchers with my tax dollars, and then having to do the work myself. :>)
> "Effects of Long-term Vitamin E Supplementation on Cardiovascular > Events and Cancer: A Randomized Controlled Trial" The HOPE and HOPE-TOO [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > vitamin E does for cardiac patients we can really be sure of, is > something (somewhat) bad. Only in cohorts that are taking aspirin
> The main value of these studies is to show that vitamin E as the > d-alpha form, in doses large enough to raise blood levels by 70%, has [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > straws, in fact. I don't believe it, and can't imagine why anybody > would. Maybe because they read direct evidence of this theoretically plausible fact that I posted. I doubt that you will be able to post any evidence that it doesn't. See my comments on PMID 12090883 in sci.life-extension. For those that don't understand the significance of hi odds ratios in epidemiology I posted a short essay a while back.
> Here's the full text of the first phase of the HOPE trial, for the > vitamin E side (as you know, there was another side looking at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > SBH I've given seven gold standard, intervention trials on vit E and C, referenced in previous posts, showing excellent cardiovascular and mortality benefits when taken properly. I've made several public claims that there are no negative trials without contradiction. If these were drugs they would get FDA approval and be widely accepted. Millions of people are dying annually of cardiovascular disease. I have just one question for the medical community. WHUTSWRONGWITCHYOUGUYS????
Thomas
|
|
|