Medical Forum / General / General / February 2005
Measles deaths and complications
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john - 08 Feb 2005 09:14 GMT Great letter on measles, also showing Salisbury lying by silence. john
"Under normal conditions, healthy children do not die from or become disabled from the complications of measles and if they do, questions should be asked about their management." http://www.whale.to/a/donegan.html http://www.whale.to/w/donegan1.html
Before I am overwhelmed by people quoting from the Department of Health Handbook 'Immunisation against Infectious Diseases' where it states in paragraph 22.1.5,
"Before 1988 (when the MMR was introduced) more than half the acute measles deaths occurred in previously healthy children who had not been immunised,"
they should first check the source for this statement - 'Deaths from measles in England and Wales, 1970-83' (in the bibliography of the Department of Health handbook it omits '1970-83' from the title), Miller CL BMJ 1985;443-4,(1). The definition of 'healthy' is somewhat less than straight forward. It is stated in this study that almost half of the people who died from measles between 1970-83 (270) had a 'pre-existing condition.' "The 'pre-existing conditions'' in the 126 previously abnormal individuals included:
Cerebral palsy (24), mental retardation (20), Down's syndrome (19), various congenital abnormalities (22), Immune deficiency or Immunosuppression (9), Lymphatic leukaemia (19)...."In those with pre- existing conditions most were grossly physically or mentally abnormal or both." (ref 2)
I think that most people, medically qualified or otherwise, would agree that there is probably a gradient between these individuals and healthy ones, yet the rest are quoted by the Department of Health Handbook as being 'healthy.'
Most importantly, the author states:
"no attempt was made to establish vaccination history."
This is pretty amazing really - to go to the bother of trawling through all that data and not record such a crucial price of information - we are supposed to be scientists after all.
So we do not know how many of the people who died in the study were vaccinated or not but we do know that over 70% of cases of measles in outbreaks may be vaccinated (3). So if measles vaccination is not saving the lives of 'healthy' children, how can it possibly hope to save the lives of those with 'pre-existing conditions' as those with poor immunity produce less antibodies in response to vaccination anyway
To clarify this matter I wrote to Dr David Salisbury, Principle Medical Officer, Immunisation and Infectious Diseases Group at the Department of Health and one of the editors of the book (also the person to whom professional queries were to be directed). I wrote to him in March of 1999. My questions were:
1) Where was the additional information from 1984-88 obtained (the paper only covered up to 1983)? and
2) As the paper stated that, 'no attempt was made to establish vaccination history,' where the information on vaccination status was obtained?
He did not acknowledge or reply to this letter, nor to the two further letters that I sent to him in June and July 1999. I also left messages with his secretary on numerous occasions to no avail. In October of 1999 I wrote to Alan Milburn, then Secretary of State for Health, complaining about the lack of response from Dr Salisbury and asking Mr Milburn to furnish this information for me. This letter was not acknowledged or replied to. However, a letter that I sent to Mr Milburn regarding another matter was acknowledged by return of post and answered within the usual time (so it was nothing personal!).
The inability to supply the requested information leads me to give little weight to this widely quoted statement in the Immunisation against Infectious Diseases Handbook and also increases some of the serious doubts I have about some of the other statements made in this and other publications by the Department of Health.
Then we have to ask how the children with measles who died were managed.
Standard medical advice is to suppress all fevers with Calpol (paracetamol) or Ibuprofen. This is not very helpful when fever is a useful response to infection with a virus or bacterium and runs contrary to the body's natural attempts to throw out toxins and right itself. In addition, Calpol is metabolised in the liver. The liver is a major component of our immune system and is generally much better occupied in carrying out its immune functions during an illness than blocking itself up detoxifying Calpol.
Parents no longer seem to be given common sense advice about how to look after a child with an infection - put them to bed, open the window, avoid dairy products, plenty of fluids, don't feed unless hungry and then only easy to digest food in small amounts and more rest.
We are all told that symptoms are the problem and must be gotten rid of. But children only get infectious diseases - whether vaccinatable or non vaccinatable when they need to learn what to do with their immune system or when they need a 'clean out' - to put it unscientifically - before taking a developmental leap.
If you look carefully at children after they have been supportively nursed through an infectious disease, you will always see them do something new, depending upon their age and circumstances. An infant may produce a tooth; a toddler who kept banging into things will walk confidently; a six-year old who is not reading will suddenly start to read. It is rather like a snake that has to crack off the old skin before it can grow, children go through these crises before they can move on to the next step. I have often seen children with endless snot or lots of warts have both of these cleared by a healthy bout of chicken pox.
Such infectious diseases do not improve the population, in the harsh Darwinian view of things, by killing off the weak and leaving only the strong ones to reproduce; they actually give each individual child the opportunity to strengthen their own individual immune system and make the best of what they have.
However, we as a society are not set up to allow the timely unfolding of such events. We teach people to fear all symptoms and expect their immediate removal. In the UK more than 50% of mothers with children under five work away from home, so are not there when their children need to be nursed. So they give them the calpol plus or minus the non-indicated (for viral infections) antibiotics and/or antihistamines (to dry up that cough) so that they can send them back to school/ nursery/ childminder so they can get back to the office where time off to care for sick children is not viewed so sympathetically as time off to take the car to the garage, not to mention the intense pressure that parents are put under by schools to have their children there every day to keep up their attendance figures in order for the school not to be penalised by the government.
Is it any wonder that so many children with measles end up in hospital - the last place they should be with their lowered cell mediated immunity, and that some of them die - and here I am talking about well nourished children who live in houses and have clean water supplies - not starving children in developing countries who are suffering from malnutrition, live in inadequate, poorly ventilated housing and drink sewage - where measles or infectious diarrhoea is the last straw that breaks the camel's back.
And so I reiterate, under normal conditions, if healthy children do die from or become disabled from the complications of measles, questions should be asked about their management.
References:
(1) Immunisation against infectious diseases HMSO London 1996 para 22.1.5, p126
(2) Miller CL, Deaths from measles in England and Wales, 1970-83,BMJ 1985;290:443-4
(3) Hutchins S, Markowitz L, Atkinson W, Swint E, Hadler S, Measles outbreaks in the United States 1987 through 1990 Padiatr Infect Dis J 1996;15:31-8
Competing interests: None declared
Jeff - 08 Feb 2005 12:41 GMT The reality of the matter is that approx. one in two thousand kids who get measles die from from measles and one in two thousand kids get serious brain damage.
And, yes, I do agree that questions should be asked. The first one that should be asked: "Why wasn't your child immunized against a deadly disease?"
Jeff
Elfanie - 08 Feb 2005 13:42 GMT >And, yes, I do agree that questions should be asked. The first one that >should be asked: "Why wasn't your child immunized against a deadly disease?" > >Jeff Because, after doing the research ourselves, we decided that the risk of not vaccinating was preferable to the risks of vaccinating.
Umm....can't every single solitary disease be considered "deadly" since *someone* has died from every disease known? Is there a single disease that SOMEONE hasn't died from?
Stephanie Soderblom CLD CCCE CD(DONA) ICD Mesa, AZ Mommy to Mikael 5/9/95 - Kerstyn 8/6/99 - and Kevin 8/30/02 New baby due end of May 2005 Student Midwife Birth Doula / Childbirth Educator / Pregnancy and Birth Photography elfanieNOSPAM@soderblom.net http://www.birthdiaries.com - Birth Story Diaries=REAL BIRTHS = REAL PHOTOS
Mark Probert - 08 Feb 2005 14:02 GMT > >And, yes, I do agree that questions should be asked. The first one that > >should be asked: "Why wasn't your child immunized against a deadly disease?" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > since *someone* has died from every disease known? Is there a single > disease that SOMEONE hasn't died from? The most common disease which causes death is utter stupidity. Often it is the cause of a child's death.
john - 08 Feb 2005 15:45 GMT > Because, after doing the research ourselves, we decided that the risk > of not vaccinating was preferable to the risks of vaccinating. vaccines don't prevent measles deaths, they had declined by 99.4% before vaccination, and any betting person would say the factors that reduced them 99.4% would be the factor that reduced it any further %. http://www.whale.to/m/quotes19.html
So what does that do to the risk factor?
Quite apart from the fact they don't use nutrients to prevent or cure, which would eliminate any need for vaccines, assuming they do anything other than cause autism etc, which they don't.
> Umm....can't every single solitary disease be considered "deadly" > since *someone* has died from every disease known? Is there a single > disease that SOMEONE hasn't died from? Jeff has to talk pharma bollocks, he is a shill http://www.whale.to/m/putz.html
Jeff - 09 Feb 2005 04:10 GMT >> Because, after doing the research ourselves, we decided that the risk >> of not vaccinating was preferable to the risks of vaccinating. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 99.4% would be the factor that reduced it any further %. > http://www.whale.to/m/quotes19.html I guess 0.6% of the kids don't count?
Even in developed countries with the best medical care, some kids die because the measles virus spreads to the brain.
> So what does that do to the risk factor? It is still there.
And much higher in undeveloped countries.
> Quite apart from the fact they don't use nutrients to prevent or cure, > which would eliminate any need for vaccines, assuming they do anything > other > than cause autism etc, which they don't. As usual, John does not show us peer-reviewed studies that back up his claims.
Of course, there is no evidence to back them up.
Jeff
>> Umm....can't every single solitary disease be considered "deadly" >> since *someone* has died from every disease known? Is there a single >> disease that SOMEONE hasn't died from? > > Jeff has to talk pharma bollocks, he is a shill > http://www.whale.to/m/putz.html David Wright - 10 Feb 2005 03:44 GMT >> Because, after doing the research ourselves, we decided that the risk >> of not vaccinating was preferable to the risks of vaccinating. > >vaccines don't prevent measles deaths, they had declined by 99.4% before >vaccination, and any betting person would say the factors that reduced them >99.4% would be the factor that reduced it any further %. Not so. The main thing that reduced measles deaths was better nutrition. But once the population is well-nourished, you've done all you can do in that area.
Then vaccination becomes the most significant factor.
Of course, John is doing is usual lying best by implying that the only possible outcomes of measles are either complete recovery or death; he leaves out some of the other possibilities, like permanent brain damage. (He claims to have been unaffected by measles as a child, this being the source of his belief that measles is harmless, but in his case, brain damage looks likely.)
>http://www.whale.to/m/quotes19.html
>So what does that do to the risk factor? > > Quite apart from the fact they don't use nutrients to prevent or cure, >which would eliminate any need for vaccines, assuming they do anything other >than cause autism etc, which they don't. Another blatant lie -- the anti-vac morons are unable to explain why the incidence of measles has fallen to near zero since vaccination was introduced.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
HCN - 08 Feb 2005 21:01 GMT >>And, yes, I do agree that questions should be asked. The first one that >>should be asked: "Why wasn't your child immunized against a deadly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Because, after doing the research ourselves, we decided that the risk > of not vaccinating was preferable to the risks of vaccinating. What research was that? The stuff described here: http://briandeer.com/mmr-lancet.htm ? Which is possibly one of the reasons there is a mumps epidemic in the UK (the teenagers now in danger of sterility may have had protection through herd immunity until lawyer paid "research" was published, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1469885,00.html
What kind of research decides that vaccine is more dangerous than a disease that kills 1 out of 1000, disables another 1 out of 1000 --- to the point it is STILL a major reason for childhood death in parts of this world? (see http://www.measlesinitiative.org/index3.asp )
You should have started here: http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/def_pink_full.htm ... and read the book _Plagues and Peoples_ by McNeill, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385121229 ... to get a better understanding of the impact of disease.
> Umm....can't every single solitary disease be considered "deadly" > since *someone* has died from every disease known? Is there a single > disease that SOMEONE hasn't died from? Depends on the numbers... it just happens that measles is very contagious and kills lots more than mumps. But mumps used to be the primary cause of post-lingual deafness. Also, some diseases kill not just 1 out of 1000, but something like 1 out of 20 (tetanus), and even though the deaths from chicken pox are low... it means lots more kids are alive when the deaths due to chicken pox go DOWN: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6901574/
> Stephanie Soderblom CLD CCCE CD(DONA) ICD > Mesa, AZ Have you been near Tempe lately? http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=2852097
> Mommy to Mikael 5/9/95 - Kerstyn 8/6/99 - and Kevin 8/30/02 > New baby due end of May 2005 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > http://www.birthdiaries.com - Birth Story Diaries=REAL BIRTHS = REAL > PHOTOS Jeff - 09 Feb 2005 04:10 GMT >>And, yes, I do agree that questions should be asked. The first one that >>should be asked: "Why wasn't your child immunized against a deadly [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > since *someone* has died from every disease known? Is there a single > disease that SOMEONE hasn't died from? We are not talking just one person dying from measles. We are talking somehting like 1000 to 1500 kids a year whose lives are saved by the vaccine. Not to mention thousands of serious brain injuries and thousands of rubella-related birth defects and deaths prevented.
Jeff
> Stephanie Soderblom CLD CCCE CD(DONA) ICD > Mesa, AZ [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > http://www.birthdiaries.com - Birth Story Diaries=REAL BIRTHS = REAL > PHOTOS drriley - 13 Feb 2005 20:33 GMT Given that the poster chooses to post anonymously, I recommend blocking his phony email address with your news/email clients "block" function.
> Great letter on measles, also showing Salisbury lying by silence. > john [quoted text clipped - 180 lines] > > Competing interests: None declared
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