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Medical Forum / General / General / January 2005

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Off label usage of medicine

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genehome@telus.net - 16 Jan 2005 08:49 GMT
Are there any physcians or non-physcians who have any experience at all
with off-labell usage of prescription medication. I am a doctor and
think this is a much bigger problem than is recognized by the FDA.
Moreover, this is a potential area where drugs can more easily run into
trouble.
I would like to hear any and all of your thoughts. I am also interested
in what the response to the medication was like for this off-labell
usage.

Thank you all
With kind wishes
PF Riley - 16 Jan 2005 18:10 GMT
>Are there any physcians or non-physcians who have any experience at all
>with off-labell usage of prescription medication. I am a doctor and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>in what the response to the medication was like for this off-labell
>usage.

Pediatricians use medications "off-label" probably every day.

PF
Carey Gregory - 16 Jan 2005 23:24 GMT
>Pediatricians use medications "off-label" probably every day.

As do veterinarians.
genehome - 17 Jan 2005 03:11 GMT
I absolutely know this to be true and agree with you. What I am looking
for is specific examples with the associated utility behind these
examples

Thank you
nospam@pacbell.net - 17 Jan 2005 03:21 GMT
>I absolutely know this to be true and agree with you. What I am looking
>for is specific examples with the associated utility behind these
>examples
>
>Thank you

Why?
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 17 Jan 2005 23:28 GMT
> I absolutely know this to be true and agree with you. What I am looking
> for is specific examples with the associated utility behind these
> examples
>
> Thank you

I would report any physician suggesting off label drug use to Health
Canada and his/her provincial college. I am not going to be used as an
after market lab rat. And if I was in a bad mood that day, I might take
the script knowingly, and then report them. Caveat emptor works both
ways. <gs> {That's 'grim smile' David}.

"This included paying physicians to appear as the authors of medical
journal articles on unapproved uses for gabapentin when the articles
had actually been written by others working under the direction of the
company's marketing department."

Off-label use of Neurontin.
http://www.citizen.org/ELETTER/ARTICLES/neurontin.htm
genehome - 17 Jan 2005 03:11 GMT
I absolutely know this to be true and agree with you. What I am looking
for is specific examples with the associated utility behind these
examples

Thank you
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 21 Jan 2005 01:06 GMT
Here's one: Lithium. It was discovered to be an anti-mania drug in
1949, but cardiac risk concerns delayed its use through the 50's, and
in the US though the 60's (while the Europeans used it). The FDA didn't
approve it till 1970 for mania, and for prevention of bipolar disorder
not till 1974. Before that, doctors had to use it off label. This
sometimes involved having psych students make up capsules from lithium
carbonate powder bought from chemical supply companies.

Similar problems beset newer treatments. Lithium has nasty side effects
in many, but the second line drug valproate, wasn't approved for
treating bipolar disorder because nobody wanted to pay for the studies.
It was instead used for seizures from 1983, and was used off label for
mania until 1995 when one form of it (the newly patented divalproex, a
partial sodium salt) got approved to treat mania. But even this one
missed being studied as a preventive for bipolar cycling, and the first
drug to get THAT FDA approval was lamotrigine, in 2003, almost 30 years
after lithium. And even lamotrigine had been used off label for bipolar
disorder for much of the 9 years between first getting approved for
epilepsy in 1994 (doctors by then knew that many antiepileptics were
effective at preventing bipolar cycling). Sensing a pattern?

For children, amplify all these problems and add years to approval for
each of them.

SBH
David Rind - 17 Jan 2005 21:24 GMT
> Are there any physcians or non-physcians who have any experience at all
> with off-labell usage of prescription medication. I am a doctor and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Thank you all
> With kind wishes

What kind of "doctor" are you? If you were a physician practicing
medicine in the US you would constantly use medicines "off label" and
would likely think this was a rather important thing to do since most
drugs never get approved for most of the things research has shown them
to be good for.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

zwalanga@yahoo.com - 18 Jan 2005 00:49 GMT
> > Are there any physcians or non-physcians who have any experience at all
> > with off-labell usage of prescription medication. I am a doctor and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> What kind of "doctor" are you? If you were a physician practicing
> medicine in the US you would constantly use medicines "off label" and

> would likely think this was a rather important thing to do since most

> drugs never get approved for most of the things research has shown them
> to be good for.
>
> --
> David Rind
> drind@caregroup.harvard.edu
...but many things they haven't been shown to be good for.

Zee
Carey Gregory - 18 Jan 2005 07:10 GMT
>> drugs never get approved for most of the things research has shown
>> them to be good for.
>
>...but many things they haven't been shown to be good for.

Such as?
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 18 Jan 2005 07:48 GMT
> >> drugs never get approved for most of the things research has shown
> >> them to be good for.
> >
> >...but many things they haven't been shown to be good for.
>
> Such as?

neurontin and peripheral neuropathy
paxil, children and youth
prozac and youth
risperdal and children
statins and women or elderly
olanzapine and depression
HRT and menopausal women
Diane 35 and women
propofol and children
prepulsid and eating disordered youth

Zee
Carey Gregory - 18 Jan 2005 20:53 GMT
>neurontin and peripheral neuropathy

The FDA's web site says it's approved for seizures.  Not a word about
neuropathy.

>paxil, children and youth

Ditto with paxil.  The FDA's web site says safety and effectiveness haven't
been established in pediatric patients.

Sounds like off-label usage to me.  Where can I find the FDA approvals for
these uses you listed?

>prozac and youth
>risperdal and children
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Zee
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 19 Jan 2005 01:23 GMT
> >neurontin and peripheral neuropathy
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Sounds like off-label usage to me.  Where can I find the FDA approvals for
> these uses you listed?

Exactly. They are being prescribed for off-label uses, with the
consumer (you) being used as an after market lab rat. "...many things
they haven't been shown to be good for."

prozac and youth
risperdal and children
statins and women or elderly
olanzapine and depression
HRT and menopausal women
Diane 35 and women
propofol and children
prepulsid and eating disordered youth

Zee
David Rind - 19 Jan 2005 01:57 GMT
>>>neurontin and peripheral neuropathy

> Exactly. They are being prescribed for off-label uses, with the
> consumer (you) being used as an after market lab rat. "...many things
> they haven't been shown to be good for."

You can take the position that somehow FDA approval is the difference
between being a lab rat or not, but it doesn't make much sense. There
can be really strong evidence that a drug is of benefit without FDA
approval. Neurontin is approved by the FDA for the neuropathic pain of
postherpetic neuralgia. There are randomized trials showing it also is
of benefit for the neuropathic pain of diabetic neuropathy. Should
doctors really refuse to prescribe a beneficial drug for something just
because it hasn't been worth it to the manufacturer to apply for an
additional indication? How about for an indication that is "off label"
in the US but is an approved indication in Europe. If you're being
treated by a US doctor does that make you a "lab rat"?

It makes more sense to ask whether there is good evidence to justify
using a given medication, whether or not it is FDA approved for that
indication. Even if there is FDA approval, the drug may not be worth the
side effects or there may be some other drug that works much better.
Even if there is no FDA approval, the drug may be well proven to be the
best drug available for the problem. And sometimes, even when there is
only weak evidence and no FDA approval, it may make sense for someone to
take a drug to see if it might work, if there are no other choices
available and the benefits seem likely to outweigh the risks.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 19 Jan 2005 02:17 GMT
>>It makes more sense to ask whether there is good evidence to justify
using a given medication, whether or not it is FDA approved for that
indication. Even if there is FDA approval, the drug may not be worth
the
side effects or there may be some other drug that works much better.
Even if there is no FDA approval, the drug may be well proven to be the

best drug available for the problem. And sometimes, even when there is
only weak evidence and no FDA approval, it may make sense for someone
to
take a drug to see if it might work, if there are no other choices
available and the benefits seem likely to outweigh the risks.<<

COMMENT:

You've just elloquently made the case for not having an initial FDA
"approval" for any drug at all. Which I agree with. FDA should be an
advisory agency only, with no power to keep a drug off the market
entirely, just because nobody has spent the many millions needed to get
it approved for SOMETHING (anything).  The system we have is, when you
think about it, really stupid. Any use of a drug for any reason "off
label" is a big risk/benefit analysis, which would proceed
independently even if the drug had never been approved by the FDA for
anything. Some drugs available only off-shore are prescribed this way
occasionally by US doctors, legally. But it's done rarely, because
civil-suit wise, it's risky. We wouldn't need the FDA so much if we
could hamstring the tort process. If the courts were willing to let any
patient who took any drug sign the kind of stack of papers you sign
when you take up skydiving or scuba, and the courts stuck by the
contracts, you could dispense with the FDA as we know it, and
medications would be half their current price in the bargain.

SBH
David Rind - 21 Jan 2005 17:16 GMT
> You've just elloquently made the case for not having an initial FDA
> "approval" for any drug at all. Which I agree with. FDA should be an
> advisory agency only, with no power to keep a drug off the market
> entirely, just because nobody has spent the many millions needed to get
> it approved for SOMETHING (anything).

I have some sympathy for that position, but the problem is that it
really is only the approval process that forces drug companies to do
decently controlled studies. Such studies are incredibly expensive and
without an approval process the drug companies would frequently just do
crappy studies and then market to doctors and patients on the basis of
bad studies. Do you have a suggestion for how (in the actual society we
live in) to cause the costs of such needed research to be borne by the
manufacturer of the drug if we did not have any approval process?

Obviously we have exactly this problem when it comes to off-label use,
but having the appropriate studies done for approval means we know a lot
about the drug (dosing, side effects, etc.) for at least one indication.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 21 Jan 2005 23:32 GMT
This is a hard, and in some (not all) ways, insoluble problem.
Essentially, information copying presents us all with a version of the
problem of the commons, or otherwise known as the free-rider problem.
Who pays for public services, like breathing clean air? What prevents
people from simply copying works (like movies) which cost multimillions
to create?  When you use a drug off-label, or even on-label, you may be
benefiting from millions of dollars worth of clinical information. So
what insures that you pay the inventors and discoverers for that?  If
nobody pays them, they will quit innovating. Indeed, lack of innovation
and published studies are what in part DRIVES and insures the squalid
state of information for off-label use of drugs, as well as the squalid
state of information on non-drug treatment of illnesses. No author
wants to work to produce works that will simply be stolen to make money
for others. Working for the benefit of mankind is great, but we all
need to make a living, and some of us scientists and inventors went to
school a long time line and work very hard to innovate, and at the end
would like to retire someplace other than a trailer park in the Nevada
desert.  And certainly so if he create information which results in
treatments sold to users for lots of money.

I don't have all the answers, but I will note that the music industry
has solved this problem of recovering copying and data theft to a far
better degree than the drug industry (or indeed our entire technical
development industry) has.  If you hear a song on the radio and pick it
out on your guitar and then start singing it for audiences for money,
it won't take a very big audience to attract one of the large number of
people who work for the music industry as watch-dogs, and you will be
taken to court and sued. The same if you copy music without paying
license fees. And artists and authors have managed to secure copyrights
for life-time plus 50 years, which is 4 to 5 times longer than patents
for technical information.

The results are easy to see. We're deluged with new copyrighted
creative works, and the richest creative people (those who innovate for
a living) are in the entertainment businesses which rely on copyright,
not the businesses which rely for protection on patents. Which means,
as a society, that you can find stuff about Harry Potter far more
easily than you can find stuff to cure your disease. Which means, in
many cases, that you're screwed. You get what you pay for, and what
goes around, comes around. And you killed cock robin and the goose that
lays the golden eggs. So if you worship and pay movie stars instead of
guys who cure cancer, then when your own cancer appears, I hope you
have a lot of good DVDs to keep your mind off things while you decline
in hospice.

In the medical industry, the only place where anybody has managed to
recover *anything* for inventors (the 20 year drug patent) has resulted
in a completely lopsided economy which is about 50% driven by the money
that comes in from on-patent drug sales. And this certainly does result
in the many perversions of the system that we've all heard complaining
about.  The cure for such lopsidedness is to try to balance things out
by allowing non-patented-drug treatments for diseases to make some
money by generating scientific data for themselves.

Off hand, I can think if many things that need doing. In no particular
order, they are:
1) Balance the time of protection for copyright vs patent. I don't care
if they decrease copyright to 20 years, or increase patent to author's
life plus 50 (or a corporate 75, as happens with copyright). Or have
them meet in the middle somewhere. But fix this.  Longer pharmaceutical
patents will do something about the mania many companies have to get
their products out and used widely before independent clinical studies
can check up on them. "Use the new drugs quickly, young man, before
they lose their effectiveness", I was told as a young doctor. This
shouldn't have to be true.  A longer patent time would also effectively
generate a great deal more money for basic research, by allowing
researchers and research companies to effectively borrow on a longer
future. That being true, it isn't clear that it would make average cost
of a given drug rise. Instead, average cost per brand drug would
decrease, generic drugs as we know them would disappear, and more new
drugs would appear on the market. The consumer would indeed end up
paying more for drugs in total (since more money would go into
research) but much of that extra money would pay for increased choice
and quality of product. Less of it would pay for drug company
advertising, which today is mostly a feverish race to make doctors
aware of a new product before its patent expires. Let's quit wasting
that money.

2) Do some things to strengthen enforcement of use-patent protection,
for off label use of drugs and devices.

3) Do some things to capture profits from the sale of drugs, nutrients,
and devices that could return money to innovators of new ways to use
them. A tax on vitamin pills could go to new vitamin research, for
example. And it could even go to compensate those involved in
productive already-done vitamin research, if that research results in
increased use of the vitamin.  If somebody discovers that folate
prevents neural tube defects in fetuses and this results in the folate
market doubling, then some part of that money should go back to the
people who generated the information and did the studies.  Similarly, a
tax on any drugs which presently are not patent-protected can go into
similar pools. Inventors who discover new uses for taxable items might
be able to claim some part of the profit generated by surtaxes on these
items, if they can make a good argument that their research influenced
the market use of these things.

4) Recognize that some kinds of non-drug clinical research result in
practices which are simply impossible to tax. For example, clinical
research showed that it's much better for people to get them out of bed
a few days fallowing a heart attack, than to let them wait immobilized
for a few months (the standard in 1950). But now that we know this,
it's impossible to think of a way for the knowledge (and the huge costs
saved) to be paid for. Thus, this seems a perfect place to use public
research funds. At present, public research funds (scientific grant
money) is simply spend on problems without regard for how profits may
or may not be captured in the end. This results in the government (i.e.
the people) paying for a lot of basic and "seed" research which drug
companies later profit from. The drug companies are least in need of
public charity, when it comes to biomed research dollars. It would be
perfectly possible, as part of a biomedical grant review, to have some
committee specifically evaluate it according to whether or not the
knowledge generated is likely to benefit the public, *yet* not be
business-profitable. Such grants ought to receive special merit, and
indeed should probably receive the bulk of public research funds.

5) Hamstring the FDA. It's a stupid and corrupt agency which does more
harm than good when it comes to questions of efficacy.
Enough for now.

SBH
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 19 Jan 2005 02:29 GMT
Well I do agree David. There seems to be little to choose between FDA
approved drugs--and uses of--and winging it for off-label use these
days.  Which might be why many are thinking snake oil  isn't very
different from what their doctor is push..ing....er ...prescribing.

Troublesome that.

:"And sometimes, even when there is only weak evidence and no FDA
approval...etc..."

It brings a tear to one's eye it does David. Your dedication to
democracy. Have you thought of writing ad copy me boyo?

http://www.citizen.org/eletter/articles/neurontin.htm
Zee

{and what was that David, about 27 "if's"?}
David Rind - 20 Jan 2005 00:25 GMT
> :"And sometimes, even when there is only weak evidence and no FDA
> approval...etc..."
>
> It brings a tear to one's eye it does David. Your dedication to
> democracy. Have you thought of writing ad copy me boyo?

No, but I have had to make decisions about giving patients drugs for
potentially fatal illnesses on too little information. Sometimes later
information showed the decision to have been right and other times
wrong. I remember begging drug companies for protease inhibitors well
before they were approved by the FDA. I'm not sure why you think it's
shilling for the drug companies to recognize that such decisions have to
be made.

> http://www.citizen.org/eletter/articles/neurontin.htm
> Zee
>
> {and what was that David, about 27 "if's"?}

I honestly have no clue what you mean by that last sentence. As to the
prior URL, the Public Citizen letter is deceptive in that it implies
that there is no evidence that Neurontin works for any of these 11
indications. That is just untrue. As an example (sticking with diabetic
neuropathy):

------------------------------
TI - Gabapentin for the symptomatic treatment of painful neuropathy in
patients with diabetes mellitus: a randomized controlled trial.
AU - Backonja M; Beydoun A; Edwards KR; Schwartz SL; Fonseca V; Hes M;
LaMoreaux L; Garofalo E
SO - JAMA 1998 Dec 2;280(21):1831-6.

CONTEXT: Pain is the most disturbing symptom of diabetic peripheral
neuropathy. As many as 45% of patients with diabetes mellitus develop
peripheral neuropathies. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effect of gabapentin
monotherapy on pain associated with diabetic peripheral neuropathy.
DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, 8-week trial
conducted between July 1996 and March 1997. SETTING: Outpatient clinics
at 20 sites. PATIENTS: The 165 patients enrolled had a 1- to 5-year
history of pain attributed to diabetic neuropathy and a minimum 40-mm
pain score on the Short-Form McGill Pain Questionnaire visual analogue
scale. INTERVENTION: Gabapentin (titrated from 900 to 3600 mg/d or
maximum tolerated dosage) or placebo. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The primary
efficacy measure was daily pain severity as measured on an 11-point
Likert scale (0, no pain; 10, worst possible pain). Secondary measures
included sleep interference scores, the Short-Form McGill Pain
Questionnaire scores, Patient Global Impression of Change and Clinical
Global Impression of Change, the Short Form-36 Quality of Life
Questionnaire scores, and the Profile of Mood States results. RESULTS:
Eighty-four patients received gabapentin and 70 (83%) completed the
study; 81 received placebo and 65 (80%) completed the study. By
intent-to-treat analysis, gabapentin-treated patients' mean daily pain
score at the study end point (baseline, 6.4; end point, 3.9; n = 82) was
significantly lower (P<.001) compared with the placebo-treated patients'
end-point score (baseline, 6.5; end point, 5.1; n = 80). All secondary
outcome measures of pain were significantly better in the gabapentin
group than in the placebo group. Additional statistically significant
differences favoring gabapentin treatment were observed in measures of
quality of life (Short Form-36 Quality of Life Questionnaire and Profile
of Mood States). Adverse events experienced significantly more
frequently in the gabapentin group were dizziness (20 [24%] in the
gabapentin group vs 4 [4.9%] in the control group; P<.001) and
somnolence (19 [23%] in the gabapentin group vs 5 [6%] in the control
group; P = .003). Confusion was also more frequent in the gabapentin
group (7 [8%] vs 1 [1.2%]; P = .06). CONCLUSION: Gabapentin monotherapy
appears to be efficacious for the treatment of pain and sleep
interference associated with diabetic peripheral neuropathy and exhibits
positive effects on mood and quality of life.
----------------------

Pretending that data like these don't exist just because it wasn't
worthwhile for the manufacturer to apply to the FDA for an added
indication is just silly. Neurontin may not be worth its side effects
when used for diabetic neuropathy, but there is good evidence that it
relieves pain.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

zwalanga@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2005 01:42 GMT
> > :"And sometimes, even when there is only weak evidence and no FDA
> > approval...etc..."
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> information showed the decision to have been right and other times
> wrong. I remember begging drug companies for protease inhibitors well

> before they were approved by the FDA. I'm not sure why you think it's

> shilling for the drug companies to recognize that such decisions have to
> be made.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> CONTEXT: Pain is the most disturbing symptom of diabetic peripheral
> neuropathy. As many as 45% of patients with diabetes mellitus develop

> peripheral neuropathies. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effect of gabapentin
> monotherapy on pain associated with diabetic peripheral neuropathy.
> DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, 8-week trial
> conducted between July 1996 and March 1997. SETTING: Outpatient clinics
> at 20 sites. PATIENTS: The 165 patients enrolled had a 1- to 5-year
> history of pain attributed to diabetic neuropathy and a minimum 40-mm

> pain score on the Short-Form McGill Pain Questionnaire visual analogue
> scale. INTERVENTION: Gabapentin (titrated from 900 to 3600 mg/d or
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> outcome measures of pain were significantly better in the gabapentin
> group than in the placebo group. Additional statistically significant

> differences favoring gabapentin treatment were observed in measures of
> quality of life (Short Form-36 Quality of Life Questionnaire and Profile
> of Mood States). Adverse events experienced significantly more
> frequently in the gabapentin group were dizziness (20 [24%] in the
> gabapentin group vs 4 [4.9%] in the control group; P<.001) and
> somnolence (19 [23%] in the gabapentin group vs 5 [6%] in the control

> group; P = .003). Confusion was also more frequent in the gabapentin
> group (7 [8%] vs 1 [1.2%]; P = .06). CONCLUSION: Gabapentin monotherapy
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> worthwhile for the manufacturer to apply to the FDA for an added
> indication is just silly. Neurontin may not be worth its side effects

> when used for diabetic neuropathy, but there is good evidence that it

> relieves pain.
>
> --
> David Rind
> drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Now I do not know what you are saying. I want to see all indications
approved, formally. I do not think the FDA or Health Canada should be
allowing off-label use at all. But if a drug can be used off-label then
I want to see regulations about when and why not. Enforced. Wouldn't
that eliminate a lot of risk, which by the way is all for me, your
patient? I think everything is way too lax as is, and that is why we
are in such trouble. Am I being too simplistic in thinking not enough
safeguards are in place, and those that are in place are being ignored;
again, to my detriment?

What do you mean "may not be worth its side effects" but relieves pain?
Why would Neurontin be worth anything to me, if to relieve pain I risk
something else, and no one knows why or what, until several thousand of
us are injured trying to find out why or what?

Zee
David Wright - 20 Jan 2005 04:48 GMT
>> > :"And sometimes, even when there is only weak evidence and no FDA
>> > approval...etc..."
[quoted text clipped - 107 lines]
>Now I do not know what you are saying. I want to see all indications
>approved, formally.

Well, THAT will guarantee safety, won't it??

And how much are you willing to pay to get this?  You think drugs are
expensive now....

>I do not think the FDA or Health Canada should be
>allowing off-label use at all.

Thank god you don't make public health policy in the US (or Canada).

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
          were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 21 Jan 2005 00:22 GMT
>>What do you mean "may not be worth its side effects" but relieves pain?
Why would Neurontin be worth anything to me, if to relieve pain I risk
something else, and no one knows why or what, until several thousand of
us are injured trying to find out why or what?<<

COMMENT:

People who are actually in a lot of pain never ask "Why should [x pain
reliever] be worth anything to me?"  If you're in pain, it's bloody
obvious why it might be worth a lot to you. People risk their lives to
relieve pain all the time. Hell, people risk their lives to releave
boredom. Or for cosmetic reasons. Or even just for the thrill or the
hell of it.  Doing it to stop hurting ought to be particularly easy for
anybody to understand. Unless you're not hurting and have no
imagination.

The problem with having *the government* (some government agency)
balance unknown risks of a treatment against known benefits to those in
pain or those dying, is that the government itself is never in pain,
and is never dying. And isn't known for it's great empathy or
imagination, either.  So it tends to make judgements that individual
patients and doctors wouldn't.

As I've said before, everybody seems to think drugs can be developed
and sold without any "bias." But that is sort of like the idea that the
government could produce movies or cars for you without any "bias".
Based, of course, on what kind of movies and cars you NEED, not upon
any kind of biased notion, like what you want or like. The idea that
"science" can completely inform government decision- making is
particular nonsense. Science tells you only what you CAN do. Beyond
that, it's no help at all in deciding what you SHOULD do.

SBH
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2005 02:52 GMT
> >>What do you mean "may not be worth its side effects" but relieves
> pain?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> People who are actually in a lot of pain never ask "Why should [x pain
> reliever] be worth anything to me?"

That is not true in my experience. Unless we are speaking of the pain
of chemotherapy burn, or something like that. But we don't use drugs
like Neurontin there. Are you thoughts on pain from personal
experience, or vicarious experience? I have been in excruciating pain
for days on end, sweaty, shakey, sh.t running down my legs pain, and
refused the morphine. Why? Because it was the best thing I'd ever had.

Capice?

If you're in pain, it's bloody
> obvious why it might be worth a lot to you. People risk their lives to
> relieve pain all the time. Hell, people risk their lives to releave
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> imagination, either.  So it tends to make judgements that individual
> patients and doctors wouldn't.

Eh! Enough of your neo-con rants. Get back to what you do better than
anyone else.

> As I've said before, everybody seems to think drugs can be developed
> and sold without any "bias." But that is sort of like the idea that the
> government could produce movies or cars for you without any "bias".

This analogy is so very interesting. Car dealerships and healthcare.
Hmmmmm...

> Based, of course, on what kind of movies and cars you NEED, not upon
> any kind of biased notion, like what you want or like. The idea that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> SBH

Government at least can be persuaded. As poor as I am I still have a
vote in 'that' jurisdiction. And one can work at it. It may never be
perfect, but to be so jaded as to not even want to try? I am not there
yet.

Zee
Happy Dog - 21 Jan 2005 04:06 GMT
<zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>> People who are actually in a lot of pain never ask "Why should [x
> pain reliever] be worth anything to me?"
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> for days on end, sweaty, shakey, sh.t running down my legs pain, and
> refused the morphine. Why? Because it was the best thing I'd ever had.

What was the best thing?  The pain or the morphine?  Either way, you would
be the exception.  Possibly crazy too.  But I respect your choice.  As long
as your screaming doesn't keep me awake.

>> Based, of course, on what kind of movies and cars you NEED, not upon
>> any kind of biased notion, like what you want or like. The idea that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> perfect, but to be so jaded as to not even want to try? I am not there
> yet.

Who said "don't try"?  There's an inherent problem with having people decide
what's best for other people.  It's been explained to you in a variety of
ways.

m
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2005 05:15 GMT
> <zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> m

I have no idea who you are. "It's been explained to (me) in a variety
of ways."?

Jawohl! Click!

Zee
Happy Dog - 21 Jan 2005 06:49 GMT
<zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> Who said "don't try"?  There's an inherent problem with having people
> decide what's best for other people.  It's been explained to you in a
> variety of ways.

> I have no idea who you are.

Nor should you care.

>"It's been explained to (me) in a variety of ways."?

Yes.  Perhaps you didn't notice.  Your experience with pain may be unique.
So what?  And, you responded to the previous poster's statement on the topic
of government intervention and control.  So, research your own posting
history or reduce your pain levels.

erf
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2005 07:27 GMT
Suggest you go back and read through the thread. You've gotten lost.
Zee
Happy Dog - 21 Jan 2005 09:29 GMT
> Suggest you go back and read through the thread. You've gotten lost.

Twits who don't include the text to which they're responding don't help.  My
response to you contained your statements and a direct reply.  I'm not lost
in any sense of the word.

moo
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 21 Jan 2005 05:48 GMT
>>Eh! Enough of your neo-con rants. Get back to what you do better than
anyone else.<<

NeoCon rants??  My understanding of American politics is roughly as
follows:

Traditional Liberal: Central government has a role in all social
problems. And government should do it, not those shmuck redneck
"Christians." My toilet is plugged up, so what are the Feds going to do
about it already?  But don't spend money on the military, as war is not
good for children and other living things. You should call me Mommy.

Traditional Conservative. America better kick butt around the world,
bro! This country is special to Jeeezus. Let some taxes go to the
churches to take care of the poor, those that aren't too lazy to work.
As for the rest of the troublemakers, that's what jails are for. That's
how we do it in Dixie. Who's yer daddy? Shouda nuked Vietnam when we
had the chance.

NeoLiberal:  I do love those Liberals. And Elvis. But I do love those
chicken-fried prisons, too!  It's a dilemma. Say, how many votes did we
lose on all those young black men?  What, none? Only their mothers
care, and they don't vote? Well then throw away the key!  Ain't nuthin
but a hound dog....

NeoCon:  Yeah, kick butt around the world!  Especially Muslim butt!
Yeah, it's US and Israel together. Yea, military!  And don't ask me
about social problems. It's a dilemma. Don't ask, don't tell, is what I
say. Because abortion is a hard issue for me. And money to the inner
cities is a hard one for me. And fundamentalist Christians are a hard
issue for me. Because, you know, in my heart of hearts, I'm sort of,
well, actually, ah, er, ....jewish. But enough of that. Focus on Arab
butt!
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2005 06:03 GMT
Inconsistent tone and vernacular. Second to last para good. But
overall, needs work. {Or drugs.}

Zee
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 21 Jan 2005 21:26 GMT
I don't know if you've noticed, but the various people who compose the
parties HAVE inconsistant tone and vernacular. I'm reminded of Twain
who in the forward to Huckleberry Finn tells the reader the people up
and down the Mississipi have different dialects, and to pay attention,
or else they'll think the author is merely trying to make his
characters all talk the same, and not succeeding.
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2005 23:59 GMT
> I don't know if you've noticed, but the various people who compose the
> parties HAVE inconsistant tone and vernacular. I'm reminded of Twain
> who in the forward to Huckleberry Finn tells the reader the people up
> and down the Mississipi have different dialects, and to pay attention,
> or else they'll think the author is merely trying to make his
> characters all talk the same, and not succeeding.

I was speaking of the tone within one paragraph. For any further
consulation on your writing you may address me as "Your Editorship".
Zee
Carey Gregory - 21 Jan 2005 07:05 GMT
>That is not true in my experience. Unless we are speaking of the pain
>of chemotherapy burn, or something like that. But we don't use drugs
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Capice?

Maybe.  Recovering alcoholics refuse booze for the same reason.

But they rarely refuse an aspirin.  What are you saying?  Withstanding pain
is noble or good for you somehow?
Jim Chinnis - 21 Jan 2005 05:10 GMT
"Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in part:

>People risk their lives to
>relieve pain all the time.

Absolutely. Anyone who has been there knows that they would give anything for
relief. Anything.
--
Jim Chinnis  Warrenton, Virginia, USA  jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2005 05:22 GMT
Oh c'mon Jimby.  I know what the choices are. You can put up with it as
much as possible, or you can be relieved of pain and anything
resembling life too, or you can have temporary relief. I am not going
to be anesthetized to death.

"Anyone who has been there".  Gaaaaa. Men are such wusses when it comes
to pain.

Zee
Happy Dog - 21 Jan 2005 06:47 GMT
<zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> Oh c'mon Jimby.  I know what the choices are. You can put up with it as
> much as possible, or you can be relieved of pain and anything
> resembling life too,

False dilemma.  And, medically incorrect.  If all you have to go on are your
personal experiences, you're not qualifird to judge.

moo
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2005 07:21 GMT
Ahhh. Well you see in my opinion you are not qualified to judge.

Unless you have been through a pain management program anything you
have to say is second hand, speculative, conjecture, hypothesis.

...and medically incorrect.

Medically correct assumes the patient owns the treatment.

Zee
Carey Gregory - 21 Jan 2005 08:05 GMT
>Ahhh. Well you see in my opinion you are not qualified to judge.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Medically correct assumes the patient owns the treatment.

Distinguish between owning your experiences and owning everyone else's.
Your experiences are yours, and they may or may not apply to anyone else.
In any case, N=1 definitely means nothing to anyone but you.
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2005 08:31 GMT
> >Ahhh. Well you see in my opinion you are not qualified to judge.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Your experiences are yours, and they may or may not apply to anyone else.
> In any case, N=1 definitely means nothing to anyone but you.

Carey. You need to read what you just wrote, while looking in the
mirror.

Zee
Carey Gregory - 21 Jan 2005 21:39 GMT
>Carey. You need to read what you just wrote, while looking in the
>mirror.

Zee, dear, I'm not the one making claims that my experiences with pain or
pain relief are meaningful to anyone but me.
Kurt Ullman - 21 Jan 2005 11:52 GMT
>>Ahhh. Well you see in my opinion you are not qualified to judge.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Your experiences are yours, and they may or may not apply to anyone else.
>In any case, N=1 definitely means nothing to anyone but you.

   Would now be a good to remind everyone that anecodote does NOT
equal datum?

--------------------------------------------------------
They say Jesus will find you wherever you go
But when He'll coming looking for you, they don't know
In the meantime, keep your profile low.
      -Warren Zevon
Happy Dog - 21 Jan 2005 09:22 GMT
<zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> Ahhh. Well you see in my opinion you are not qualified to judge.

Your opinion means sh.t in this case.  There is a wealth of information
availible about pain management.

> Unless you have been through a pain management program anything you
> have to say is second hand, speculative, conjecture, hypothesis.

Bullshit.  You're claiming that pain management with drugs effectively kills
the patient.  The only other choice is suffering.  That's crazy.  Many, many
people use pain meds for years without becoming zombies.  There's tons of
research on this.  What happened to you?

> ...and medically incorrect.
> Medically correct assumes the patient owns the treatment.

Now you're just being obtuse.

moo
Carey Gregory - 21 Jan 2005 07:11 GMT
>Oh c'mon Jimby.  I know what the choices are. You can put up with it as
>much as possible, or you can be relieved of pain and anything
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>"Anyone who has been there".  Gaaaaa. Men are such wusses when it comes
>to pain.

And with that response you just convinced me you're either a whack job or
have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about.  

I now seriously doubt you've ever experienced the kind of pain you
described.  If you have and yet you actually believe this nonsense, then the
choice is obvious.
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2005 08:50 GMT
The topic of this thread was off-label use of medication. Many
thousands of people live with unremitting pain from the off-label use
of a medication. Thousands more have died. It is just one of the things
that wants looking at. Regulations are there for a reason.

Just like in that ambulance Carey.

I'll be turning off my scanner now EMT; and my computer too.
Zee
Happy Dog - 21 Jan 2005 09:26 GMT
<zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> The topic of this thread was off-label use of medication. Many
> thousands of people live with unremitting pain from the off-label use
> of a medication. Thousands more have died. It is just one of the things
> that wants looking at. Regulations are there for a reason.

And it's been explained to you why off-label useage is necessary in
providing relief to a great many people.  The risk is greater than the
reward.  I note you didn't make an attempt at Harris' comment on this which
weas replete with examples.  And, you brought up the use of morphine for
pain management.  So what the f.ck are you talking about?

> Just like in that ambulance Carey.

You ever worked as an EMT?  If not, by your own reasoning, your opinions on
the subject are wrothless.

Idiot.

moo
Kurt Ullman - 21 Jan 2005 11:52 GMT
>The topic of this thread was off-label use of medication. Many
>thousands of people live with unremitting pain from the off-label use
>of a medication. Thousands more have died. It is just one of the things
>that wants looking at. Regulations are there for a reason.

    There are no regulations about the off-label use of
medications. Although, you may be happy to find out, there are
fairly stringent regs on how and when and to what extent the pharm
companies can disseminate information on off-label uses. And, at
least as of late last year, were being enforced.

--------------------------------------------------------
They say Jesus will find you wherever you go
But when He'll coming looking for you, they don't know
In the meantime, keep your profile low.
      -Warren Zevon
Carey Gregory - 21 Jan 2005 21:51 GMT
>The topic of this thread was off-label use of medication. Many
>thousands of people live with unremitting pain from the off-label use
>of a medication. Thousands more have died. It is just one of the things
>that wants looking at. Regulations are there for a reason.

The regulations allow off-label usage.  Therefore, by your own reasoning you
should be supporting off-label usage.

>Just like in that ambulance Carey.

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.  If it relates to off-label
usage somehow, then I hate to tell you this but a medical director (an MD)
decides which drugs we use and for what.  Like any other MD, he's free to
allow off-label usage.
Kurt Ullman - 21 Jan 2005 11:52 GMT
>And with that response you just convinced me you're either a whack job or
>have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about.  

 Now Carey, you and I know both know that these two things are
hardly mutually exclusive. Indeed, they often have a positively
synergistic effect on each other..

--------------------------------------------------------
They say Jesus will find you wherever you go
But when He'll coming looking for you, they don't know
In the meantime, keep your profile low.
      -Warren Zevon
Carey Gregory - 21 Jan 2005 21:52 GMT
>>And with that response you just convinced me you're either a whack job or
>>have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about.  
>>
>  Now Carey, you and I know both know that these two things are
>hardly mutually exclusive. Indeed, they often have a positively
>synergistic effect on each other..

Indeed.
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2005 07:15 GMT
"I have had to make decisions about giving patients drugs for
potentially fatal illnesses on too little information."

I think we want the same thing David. Thanks for your courtesy to me.
Zee

> > :"And sometimes, even when there is only weak evidence and no FDA
> > approval...etc..."
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> information showed the decision to have been right and other times
> wrong. I remember begging drug companies for protease inhibitors well

> before they were approved by the FDA. I'm not sure why you think it's

> shilling for the drug companies to recognize that such decisions have to
> be made.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> CONTEXT: Pain is the most disturbing symptom of diabetic peripheral
> neuropathy. As many as 45% of patients with diabetes mellitus develop

> peripheral neuropathies. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effect of gabapentin
> monotherapy on pain associated with diabetic peripheral neuropathy.
> DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, 8-week trial
> conducted between July 1996 and March 1997. SETTING: Outpatient clinics
> at 20 sites. PATIENTS: The 165 patients enrolled had a 1- to 5-year
> history of pain attributed to diabetic neuropathy and a minimum 40-mm

> pain score on the Short-Form McGill Pain Questionnaire visual analogue
> scale. INTERVENTION: Gabapentin (titrated from 900 to 3600 mg/d or
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> outcome measures of pain were significantly better in the gabapentin
> group than in the placebo group. Additional statistically significant

> differences favoring gabapentin treatment were observed in measures of
> quality of life (Short Form-36 Quality of Life Questionnaire and Profile
> of Mood States). Adverse events experienced significantly more
> frequently in the gabapentin group were dizziness (20 [24%] in the
> gabapentin group vs 4 [4.9%] in the control group; P<.001) and
> somnolence (19 [23%] in the gabapentin group vs 5 [6%] in the control

> group; P = .003). Confusion was also more frequent in the gabapentin
> group (7 [8%] vs 1 [1.2%]; P = .06). CONCLUSION: Gabapentin monotherapy
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> worthwhile for the manufacturer to apply to the FDA for an added
> indication is just silly. Neurontin may not be worth its side effects

> when used for diabetic neuropathy, but there is good evidence that it
> relieves pain.
Carey Gregory - 19 Jan 2005 07:46 GMT
>Exactly. They are being prescribed for off-label uses, with the
>consumer (you) being used as an after market lab rat. "...many things
>they haven't been shown to be good for."

No, not "exactly."  You said the FDA was approving drugs for many things
research hasn't shown them to be good for (quoted below).  But apparently
that's not the case at all and the FDA has little or nothing to do with it.

So, basically, your list is just a general gripe about the things *you*
think are inappropriate off-label usage.

All you had to do was say so.

> >David Rind wrote:
> >
> >> drugs never get approved for most of the things research has shown
> >> them to be good for.
> >
> >...but many things they haven't been shown to be good for.
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 19 Jan 2005 08:50 GMT
Unfortunately no Carey. My list is not just a personal gripe.

Drugs approved--formally or informally--for 'things' they haven't been
shown to be good for:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/adr/ownwords.html

http://www.healyprozac.com/Trials/default.htm

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3079364/

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s971469.htm

Zee

> >Exactly. They are being prescribed for off-label uses, with the
> >consumer (you) being used as an after market lab rat. "...many things
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> So,basically, your list is just a general gripe about the things
*you*
> think are inappropriate off-label usage.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > >
> > >...but many things they haven't been shown to be good for.
Carey Gregory - 19 Jan 2005 16:44 GMT
>Unfortunately no Carey. My list is not just a personal gripe.
>
>Drugs approved--formally or informally--for 'things' they haven't been
>shown to be good for:

Well, maybe I missed it, but I saw nothing in the articles you listed that
supports your claim that the FDA approves drugs for uses that research
hasn't shown them to be effective for.  Perhaps you could point me to the
specific quotes that support your claim.

And I don't know what informal approval is.  I don't think the FDA has such
a thing.
 
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