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Medical Forum / General / General / January 2005

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Are all Science Bigots Absurdists?

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Mr-Natural-Health - 13 Jan 2005 05:31 GMT
I recently came across the full text of an editorial which all the
science want-a-bees must be using for their operation manual?  I have
seen the same clearly bigoted comments made all over the Internet, that
are almost word for word the same.  Do all you bigots read the NEJM?

So, I have directly quoted a gaggle of these absurdities and attached
my response to them below.

Angell M, Kassirer JP. Alternative medicine-the risks of untested and
unregulated remedies. [Editorial] N Engl J Med.1998; 339:839 -41.

"What most sets alternative medicine apart, in our view, is that it has
not been scientifically tested and its advocates largely deny the need
for such testing." [Nobody in alternative is denying the need for
testing.  What we are objecting too is the constant harassment by
bigots who should be rotting in jail, right next to the racists, and
rapists for their bigotry. Alternative medicine is objecting to clearly
non-drug forms of treatment being blindly subjected to a drug testing
paradigm by a bunched of  bigots. News flash: alternative medicine has
been and continues to be tested.  Seems simply enough to me, what part
don't you understand?]

"Many advocates of alternative medicine, in contrast, believe the
scientific method is simply not applicable to their remedies. They rely
instead on anecdotes and theories." [Only in the warped sense of
perception of a science bigot.  Different forms of treatment, clearly
are more challenging to test for then the typical science bigot is able
to comprehend.  That is why bigots really suck at research methodology.
They are closed minded and just plain ignorant.]

"In 1992, Congress established within the National Institutes of Health
an Office of Alternative Medicine to evaluate alternative remedies. So
far, the results have been disappointing." [Only in the warped sense of
perception of a science bigot. I find the results so far to be quite
thrilling. Maybe the problem is that all bigots are fundamentally
negative, rotten people, with a major attitude problem?]

"In contrast, anecdotes about alternative remedies (usually published
in books and magazines for the public) have no such documentation and
are considered sufficient in themselves as support for therapeutic
claims. [Only in the warped sense of perception of a science bigot.
Yeah, right, sure:  the branch of medicine called Integrative medicine
and Andrew Weil, MD, don't exist if you are a bigot.]

"Accordingly, herbs or mixtures of herbs are considered superior to the
active compounds isolated in the laboratory." [Interestingly, the
editorial mentions digitalis toxicity.  According to Andrew Weil, MD:
Natural healers using herbalism preferred using whole herbs which are
slower acting. With whole herbs any adverse reactions to a herb are
likely to be noticed by signs of nausea, before they become a major
problem. For example, there are three stages to digitalis toxicity. The
symptoms of the first stage are supposed to be gastrointestinal,
usually nausea and vomiting. Administering digitalis as a whole herb
(i.e., a tea made with foxglove) offers a comfortable margin of safety
for catching any adverse drug reactions, at the first stage of
toxicity. But, when digitalis is administered as a prescription drug,
physicians are trained never to expect to see this first stage of
toxicity as the pure drug form is too fast acting. Andrew Weil, M.D.,
_Health and Healing_, Houghton Mifflin Company, New York, 1998, pages
102-104. So, maybe science bigots are just ignoramuses?]

"And healing methods ... lack ... the presence of a rationale that
violates fundamental scientific laws"  [If you are a science bigot the
presence of a rationale is always more important than whether or not a
treatment works.  Let the patient rot is their motto.  Acupuncture has
been proven to work over and over again.  Physicians exist for the
benefit of suffering patients.  Patients don't exist to edify academic
snobbery.  Just thought that you might want to know.]

"Of all forms of alternative treatment, the most common is herbal
medicine." [Simply not correct.  In 1993, Eisenberg documented that
Exercise was number one followed closely by prayer.  In 1997, Eisenberg
foolishly stopped testing for exercise and prayer was still in the
lead.  The 2002 NCCAM survey again shows prayer in the lead.  Herbalism
shows up as number 2.  And, of course, they are still ignoring exercise
as being the clear number one choice in alternative medicine.]

"In less than a century, life expectancy in the United States has
increased by three decades, in part because of better sanitation and
living standards, but in large part because of advances in medicine
realized through rigorous testing." [Simply not truth.  Who was it that
said that if you tell a big enough lie, long enough and often enough
the masses will actually be dumb enough to believe it? The improvements
in longevity came by way of a better diet due to the modern food
distribution system, clean drinking water, and sanitation in urban
areas. And, let us not forget plain old human greed that promoted the
draining of swamps as a natural bi-product of the land development
process.  Truth be known, surgical advances promoted by warfare has
done more for heart disease than all of your academic bullshit.]

"Now, with the increased interest in alternative medicine, we see a
reversion to irrational approaches to medical practice ..." [Only in
the warped sense of perception of a science bigot.  It is hard to
explain the irrational beliefs of a science  bigot.  Ha, ... Hah, Ha!]

"Most such people would probably seek out conventional doctors if ...
Still, uncertainty about whether symptoms are serious could result in a
harmful delay in getting treatment that has been proved effective. And
some people may embrace alternative medicine exclusively, putting
themselves in great danger." [What planet does NEJM live on?  The data
clearly shows most do seek out conventional treatment first.
Alternative therapies are used alongside conventional treatment by
most.  And, that people abandoned to their own suffering by
conventional medicine desperately seek out alternative medicine
exclusively.  Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if
physicians did not suck so bad in the attitude department. Incredibly
stupid individuals always manage to get themselves killed.  That is
what stupid people do according to the science of evolution.  Just
thought that you might want to know.]

"colleagues describe the puzzling clinical course of a patient in whom
lead poisoning developed after he took an Indian herbal remedy for his
diabetes.20 These are without doubt simply examples of what will be a
rapidly growing problem." [ So, the NEJM has never a heard of ADR, a
very common cause of death in conventional medicine?  Newsflash NEJM:
most prescription medication is toxic and will either kill you or
totally ruin the quality of your life if you take it long enough.]

"Herbal remedies may also be sold without any knowledge of their
mechanism of action."  [Again, if you are a science bigot knowledge of
the mechanism of action is always more important than helping the
patient standing before them.  Let the patient rot is their motto.
Truth is you don't know how many drugs work.  Physicians have
historically always been recklessness and heroic with their use of
toxic drugs.]

"Caveat emptor"  [Caveat emptor, especially applies to conventional
medicine such as with prostate and rectal cancer.  Some say that the
conventional cure is a living hell.]

"It is time for the scientific community to stop giving alternative
medicine a free ride." [Maybe it is time for alternative medicine to
ride the scientific community out of town on horse back, all tar and
feathered?  What are you clowns waiting for?  If the public is
rejecting your services, you should be gracious enough to know when you
are not wanted.  Ha, ... Hah, Ha!]

"There cannot be two kinds of medicine - conventional and
alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and
medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may
not work." [Sorry NEJM, but the existence of science bigots makes it
all too easy.  People just plain don't like your attitude. Let me tell
you something about the marketplace, NEJM. Alternative medicine exists
because there is a demand for it.  There is a demand for it because you
guys just plain suck at what you do.  Just thought that you might want
to know.]

"Alternative treatments should be subjected to scientific testing no
less rigorous than that required for conventional treatments." [So, you
saying that 85% of alternative medical treatment should not have to be
proven before being used on patients just like in conventional
medicine?  And, did not this evidence-based medicine academic crap
really not start gaining any popularity at all until about 1995?  And,
doesn't the NEJM realize that we are talking about in all the history
of humanity the last decade of existence on Planet Earth?  I got an
idea NEJM, why don't you arrogant idiots get your own act together
before you start criticizing other people?]
--
john gohde
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/
Josh - 13 Jan 2005 07:52 GMT
Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth?
If your position is correct, then thats all you need and you can use
that as your greatest weapon.  'I think thou dost protest too much'.
Josh
http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
Dave S - 13 Jan 2005 10:41 GMT
Careful.. he might label you a bigot...

(grin)
Dave

> Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth?
> If your position is correct, then thats all you need and you can use
> that as your greatest weapon.  'I think thou dost protest too much'.
> Josh
> http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
Mr-Natural-Health - 13 Jan 2005 21:23 GMT
> Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth?
> ... 'I think thou dost protest too much'.

Now you are just starting to realize how you science bigots actually
sound to the rest of the world.

And, your lack of a specific response to anyone of a gaggle of specific
replies only proves that your standard trash is easily discounted if
only you would listen to what the entire planet was saying.

Remember this, science bigots hold a minority view point that is
unacceptable to the scientific community and by the rest of the
civilizied world.
--
john gohde
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/
Tobin - 13 Jan 2005 23:41 GMT
Let me guess - you are a creationist too, right?
Mr-Natural-Health - 14 Jan 2005 21:13 GMT
> Let me guess - you are a creationist too, right?

Let me guess, too - you like to kick cripples and pull the wings off of
flies?
Josh - 15 Jan 2005 16:01 GMT
do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him
josh
http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
Josh - 14 Jan 2005 00:48 GMT
I don't need to respond to absurdities - they are by definition untrue
and do not value my time or expertise.

Josh
http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
p.s.  only true bigots need to resort to name calling. . .
wc - 14 Jan 2005 04:45 GMT
> Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth?
> If your position is correct, then thats all you need and you can use
> that as your greatest weapon.  'I think thou dost protest too much'.
> Josh
> http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com

Oh Goody, another one for the killfile, you crossposting bastard
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 15 Jan 2005 22:09 GMT
>>Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if physicians did not
suck so bad in the attitude department.<<

Given that most alternative medicine involves frank belief in magic, I
think the assertion above is pretty unlikely.Say what? If physicians
didn't "suck" people wouldn't believe in magic?  Would stop saying
prayers?  Would stop believing in special charms, lucky actions, ghosts
and spirits, the power of prayers and religious and other special
rituals that aren't connected with laws of physics? Would quit wiggling
this way and that way, to try to influence rolling bowling balls? Would
quit believing that they or their brother-in-law is special enough to
constantly win at slots or roulette in Vegas?  Yeah, right.

Magical beliefs: for ease of definition, are sets of beliefs in which
it believed that the universe can be controlled or coerced by words and
feelings, rather like one's parents when one is young, or one's society
when one is older. It treats nature like it was a person. Say the magic
word, preferably in Latin, and down drops the duck. "Spell" = story.
Tell a good story, and you get what you want. There's a very good
reason why so few engineers go into politics; they simply don't think
that way.

You know why lawyers make bad airplane pilots?  They don't realize
Nature doesn't respond to a good argument. Whereas, the reason it's so
hard to get magical thinking entirely out of medicine, is that
unfortunately, the human body sometimes does.

SBH
Piezo Guru - 16 Jan 2005 02:18 GMT
Psychologists are using magic also? Don't they use alternative methods?

What about Physiotherapists and Massage Therapists?

Vitamins are all bunk then too?

> >>Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if physicians did not
> suck so bad in the attitude department.<<
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> SBH
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 16 Jan 2005 04:06 GMT
Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists
as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days
(most doctors do).

"Talk therapy" isn't magical when it's aimed at somebody who
understands it. It's only magic when it isn't.
Mr-Natural-Health - 16 Jan 2005 04:35 GMT
> Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists
> as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days
> (most doctors do).

Wrong again.  Maybe that qualifies you to be a physician?  The bigoted
mind is truly amazing!
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Physical thrapists are now just starting to realize that they are part
of alternative medicine.  All you got to do is do a Google search on
it.  One physical theraptist, I know, works out of my gym.  The
practice is quite common.

A gym is not exactly a hospital.  Ha, ... Hah, Ha!  Just thought that
you might want to know.

If a massage therapist doesn't want to be part of the sex industry it
is because they want to me in alternative medicine.

Any pychologist who treats medical conditions is in alternative
medicine.  Pyschologists have finally figured out that there is a lot
of money to be made in alternative medicine.  They nolonger have to
play second fiddle to shrinks.  It is called the field of health
psychology.

Boy are you stupid, SHB!
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 17 Jan 2005 18:59 GMT
>>Physical thrapists are now just starting to realize that they are part
of alternative medicine. All you got to do is do a Google search on
it. One physical theraptist, I know, works out of my gym. The
practice is quite common.
A gym is not exactly a hospital. Ha, ... Hah, Ha! Just thought that
you might want to know.<<

Comment: Most doctors don't work in hospitals. The point is not whether
they all do, but whether ANY do.

Not only do many physical therapists work in hospitals, but all working
hospitals have physical therapists. Paid for by all insurance plans
which also pay for hospital care, and also by medicare and medicaid.
Just thought you'd like to know.

Moron.

SBH
Mr-Natural-Health - 17 Jan 2005 23:03 GMT
> >>Physical thrapists are now just starting to realize that they are
> part
> of alternative medicine. All you got to do is do a Google search on
> it.

Hey, Moron!  I told you to do a Google Search.  What is your problem?
Don't you listen to your patients.  Ha, ... Hah, Ha!  What patients?

The Quack-Files: "Alternative" Physical Therapy?
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/df_article.html

The trend is so long standing and so pronnouced that even the
quackbusters are complaining about it.
.
Just thought that you might have half a brain.  Boy are you ignorant!
Piezo Guru - 16 Jan 2005 18:48 GMT
Well then I guess you hit the nail on the nose. It seems, no matter what
your profession, if you do not, or cannot, understand something, you are
afraid of it and attack it. Chem/cut doctors are no exception and attack
Alternative methods.

Fear drives it. I have had much more success with Alternative practicioners
than Chem/Cut practitioners for my 53 years and so have almost all the
people I know with an open mind. I have also saved the insurance companies
many dollars, and myself much pain, by avoiding the chem/cut tactics and
solutions. The old fashioned chem/cut practitioners are becoming the quacks,
slowly but surely. Their defending by attacking is putting them to bed and
losing them credibility from the masses.

It is never good to put somebody, something or some profession down in order
to raise your self esteem. It almost always works in reverse.

People taking vitamins are told by doctors, as talk to them, that they have
the most expensive urine. They shouldn't comment on things they know
absolutely nothing about.

> Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists
> as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days
> (most doctors do).
>
> "Talk therapy" isn't magical when it's aimed at somebody who
> understands it. It's only magic when it isn't.
Herman Rubin - 18 Jan 2005 20:33 GMT
            .......................

>People taking vitamins are told by doctors, as talk to them, that they have
>the most expensive urine. They shouldn't comment on things they know
>absolutely nothing about.

Those doctors are not up on things.  There is much
disagreement on how much to take, and as usual, there
is a HUGE amount of individual variation, which also
the medical profession has great problems with.

I have been advised by "mainstream" doctors to increase
my intake of certain vitamins.  The ones I am taking are
not very expensive, either.  The biggest problem here is
that there is not enough being done on how to find the
best dosage for each person.

Dr. Harris knows what he is talking about.

>> Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists
>> as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days
>> (most doctors do).

>> "Talk therapy" isn't magical when it's aimed at somebody who
>> understands it. It's only magic when it isn't.

Signature

This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558

Mr-Natural-Health - 18 Jan 2005 21:44 GMT
> Dr. Harris knows what he is talking about.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Nope!
Mr-Natural-Health - 16 Jan 2005 05:01 GMT
> >>Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if physicians did not
> suck so bad in the attitude department.<<
>
> Given that most alternative medicine involves frank belief in magic,

I must give credit to NEJM that they did not lower themselves so low as
to claim that interest in alternative therapies requires belief in
magic.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Belief in the ability of potions / drugs to cure, historically started
out with a belief in magic.

Just thought that you might want to know.
markd@toad-net.com - 13 Jan 2005 18:05 GMT
Bigot, hum, the whole tone of the remarks does seem to reflect the mental
state of one.  For all the cross posted victums of this tirade, this is
par for the course for our friend, we apologize he got out of the ward.  
Don't ask rational questions, he can't or will not answer them except in
kind.  He is one of our resident practitioners of nutritional theology,ie.
believe as I assert and don't bother me with the scientific concensus
because it is by definition wrong for even existing.
 
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