Medical Forum / General / General / January 2005
Are all Science Bigots Absurdists?
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Mr-Natural-Health - 13 Jan 2005 05:31 GMT I recently came across the full text of an editorial which all the science want-a-bees must be using for their operation manual? I have seen the same clearly bigoted comments made all over the Internet, that are almost word for word the same. Do all you bigots read the NEJM?
So, I have directly quoted a gaggle of these absurdities and attached my response to them below.
Angell M, Kassirer JP. Alternative medicine-the risks of untested and unregulated remedies. [Editorial] N Engl J Med.1998; 339:839 -41.
"What most sets alternative medicine apart, in our view, is that it has not been scientifically tested and its advocates largely deny the need for such testing." [Nobody in alternative is denying the need for testing. What we are objecting too is the constant harassment by bigots who should be rotting in jail, right next to the racists, and rapists for their bigotry. Alternative medicine is objecting to clearly non-drug forms of treatment being blindly subjected to a drug testing paradigm by a bunched of bigots. News flash: alternative medicine has been and continues to be tested. Seems simply enough to me, what part don't you understand?]
"Many advocates of alternative medicine, in contrast, believe the scientific method is simply not applicable to their remedies. They rely instead on anecdotes and theories." [Only in the warped sense of perception of a science bigot. Different forms of treatment, clearly are more challenging to test for then the typical science bigot is able to comprehend. That is why bigots really suck at research methodology. They are closed minded and just plain ignorant.]
"In 1992, Congress established within the National Institutes of Health an Office of Alternative Medicine to evaluate alternative remedies. So far, the results have been disappointing." [Only in the warped sense of perception of a science bigot. I find the results so far to be quite thrilling. Maybe the problem is that all bigots are fundamentally negative, rotten people, with a major attitude problem?]
"In contrast, anecdotes about alternative remedies (usually published in books and magazines for the public) have no such documentation and are considered sufficient in themselves as support for therapeutic claims. [Only in the warped sense of perception of a science bigot. Yeah, right, sure: the branch of medicine called Integrative medicine and Andrew Weil, MD, don't exist if you are a bigot.]
"Accordingly, herbs or mixtures of herbs are considered superior to the active compounds isolated in the laboratory." [Interestingly, the editorial mentions digitalis toxicity. According to Andrew Weil, MD: Natural healers using herbalism preferred using whole herbs which are slower acting. With whole herbs any adverse reactions to a herb are likely to be noticed by signs of nausea, before they become a major problem. For example, there are three stages to digitalis toxicity. The symptoms of the first stage are supposed to be gastrointestinal, usually nausea and vomiting. Administering digitalis as a whole herb (i.e., a tea made with foxglove) offers a comfortable margin of safety for catching any adverse drug reactions, at the first stage of toxicity. But, when digitalis is administered as a prescription drug, physicians are trained never to expect to see this first stage of toxicity as the pure drug form is too fast acting. Andrew Weil, M.D., _Health and Healing_, Houghton Mifflin Company, New York, 1998, pages 102-104. So, maybe science bigots are just ignoramuses?]
"And healing methods ... lack ... the presence of a rationale that violates fundamental scientific laws" [If you are a science bigot the presence of a rationale is always more important than whether or not a treatment works. Let the patient rot is their motto. Acupuncture has been proven to work over and over again. Physicians exist for the benefit of suffering patients. Patients don't exist to edify academic snobbery. Just thought that you might want to know.]
"Of all forms of alternative treatment, the most common is herbal medicine." [Simply not correct. In 1993, Eisenberg documented that Exercise was number one followed closely by prayer. In 1997, Eisenberg foolishly stopped testing for exercise and prayer was still in the lead. The 2002 NCCAM survey again shows prayer in the lead. Herbalism shows up as number 2. And, of course, they are still ignoring exercise as being the clear number one choice in alternative medicine.]
"In less than a century, life expectancy in the United States has increased by three decades, in part because of better sanitation and living standards, but in large part because of advances in medicine realized through rigorous testing." [Simply not truth. Who was it that said that if you tell a big enough lie, long enough and often enough the masses will actually be dumb enough to believe it? The improvements in longevity came by way of a better diet due to the modern food distribution system, clean drinking water, and sanitation in urban areas. And, let us not forget plain old human greed that promoted the draining of swamps as a natural bi-product of the land development process. Truth be known, surgical advances promoted by warfare has done more for heart disease than all of your academic bullshit.]
"Now, with the increased interest in alternative medicine, we see a reversion to irrational approaches to medical practice ..." [Only in the warped sense of perception of a science bigot. It is hard to explain the irrational beliefs of a science bigot. Ha, ... Hah, Ha!]
"Most such people would probably seek out conventional doctors if ... Still, uncertainty about whether symptoms are serious could result in a harmful delay in getting treatment that has been proved effective. And some people may embrace alternative medicine exclusively, putting themselves in great danger." [What planet does NEJM live on? The data clearly shows most do seek out conventional treatment first. Alternative therapies are used alongside conventional treatment by most. And, that people abandoned to their own suffering by conventional medicine desperately seek out alternative medicine exclusively. Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if physicians did not suck so bad in the attitude department. Incredibly stupid individuals always manage to get themselves killed. That is what stupid people do according to the science of evolution. Just thought that you might want to know.]
"colleagues describe the puzzling clinical course of a patient in whom lead poisoning developed after he took an Indian herbal remedy for his diabetes.20 These are without doubt simply examples of what will be a rapidly growing problem." [ So, the NEJM has never a heard of ADR, a very common cause of death in conventional medicine? Newsflash NEJM: most prescription medication is toxic and will either kill you or totally ruin the quality of your life if you take it long enough.]
"Herbal remedies may also be sold without any knowledge of their mechanism of action." [Again, if you are a science bigot knowledge of the mechanism of action is always more important than helping the patient standing before them. Let the patient rot is their motto. Truth is you don't know how many drugs work. Physicians have historically always been recklessness and heroic with their use of toxic drugs.]
"Caveat emptor" [Caveat emptor, especially applies to conventional medicine such as with prostate and rectal cancer. Some say that the conventional cure is a living hell.]
"It is time for the scientific community to stop giving alternative medicine a free ride." [Maybe it is time for alternative medicine to ride the scientific community out of town on horse back, all tar and feathered? What are you clowns waiting for? If the public is rejecting your services, you should be gracious enough to know when you are not wanted. Ha, ... Hah, Ha!]
"There cannot be two kinds of medicine - conventional and alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may not work." [Sorry NEJM, but the existence of science bigots makes it all too easy. People just plain don't like your attitude. Let me tell you something about the marketplace, NEJM. Alternative medicine exists because there is a demand for it. There is a demand for it because you guys just plain suck at what you do. Just thought that you might want to know.]
"Alternative treatments should be subjected to scientific testing no less rigorous than that required for conventional treatments." [So, you saying that 85% of alternative medical treatment should not have to be proven before being used on patients just like in conventional medicine? And, did not this evidence-based medicine academic crap really not start gaining any popularity at all until about 1995? And, doesn't the NEJM realize that we are talking about in all the history of humanity the last decade of existence on Planet Earth? I got an idea NEJM, why don't you arrogant idiots get your own act together before you start criticizing other people?] -- john gohde http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/
Josh - 13 Jan 2005 07:52 GMT Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth? If your position is correct, then thats all you need and you can use that as your greatest weapon. 'I think thou dost protest too much'. Josh http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
Dave S - 13 Jan 2005 10:41 GMT Careful.. he might label you a bigot...
(grin) Dave
> Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth? > If your position is correct, then thats all you need and you can use > that as your greatest weapon. 'I think thou dost protest too much'. > Josh > http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com Mr-Natural-Health - 13 Jan 2005 21:23 GMT > Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth? > ... 'I think thou dost protest too much'. Now you are just starting to realize how you science bigots actually sound to the rest of the world.
And, your lack of a specific response to anyone of a gaggle of specific replies only proves that your standard trash is easily discounted if only you would listen to what the entire planet was saying.
Remember this, science bigots hold a minority view point that is unacceptable to the scientific community and by the rest of the civilizied world. -- john gohde http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/
Tobin - 13 Jan 2005 23:41 GMT Let me guess - you are a creationist too, right?
Mr-Natural-Health - 14 Jan 2005 21:13 GMT > Let me guess - you are a creationist too, right? Let me guess, too - you like to kick cripples and pull the wings off of flies?
Josh - 15 Jan 2005 16:01 GMT do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him josh http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
Josh - 14 Jan 2005 00:48 GMT I don't need to respond to absurdities - they are by definition untrue and do not value my time or expertise.
Josh http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com p.s. only true bigots need to resort to name calling. . .
wc - 14 Jan 2005 04:45 GMT > Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth? > If your position is correct, then thats all you need and you can use > that as your greatest weapon. 'I think thou dost protest too much'. > Josh > http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com Oh Goody, another one for the killfile, you crossposting bastard
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 15 Jan 2005 22:09 GMT >>Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if physicians did not suck so bad in the attitude department.<<
Given that most alternative medicine involves frank belief in magic, I think the assertion above is pretty unlikely.Say what? If physicians didn't "suck" people wouldn't believe in magic? Would stop saying prayers? Would stop believing in special charms, lucky actions, ghosts and spirits, the power of prayers and religious and other special rituals that aren't connected with laws of physics? Would quit wiggling this way and that way, to try to influence rolling bowling balls? Would quit believing that they or their brother-in-law is special enough to constantly win at slots or roulette in Vegas? Yeah, right.
Magical beliefs: for ease of definition, are sets of beliefs in which it believed that the universe can be controlled or coerced by words and feelings, rather like one's parents when one is young, or one's society when one is older. It treats nature like it was a person. Say the magic word, preferably in Latin, and down drops the duck. "Spell" = story. Tell a good story, and you get what you want. There's a very good reason why so few engineers go into politics; they simply don't think that way.
You know why lawyers make bad airplane pilots? They don't realize Nature doesn't respond to a good argument. Whereas, the reason it's so hard to get magical thinking entirely out of medicine, is that unfortunately, the human body sometimes does.
SBH
Piezo Guru - 16 Jan 2005 02:18 GMT Psychologists are using magic also? Don't they use alternative methods?
What about Physiotherapists and Massage Therapists?
Vitamins are all bunk then too?
> >>Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if physicians did not > suck so bad in the attitude department.<< [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > SBH Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 16 Jan 2005 04:06 GMT Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days (most doctors do).
"Talk therapy" isn't magical when it's aimed at somebody who understands it. It's only magic when it isn't.
Mr-Natural-Health - 16 Jan 2005 04:35 GMT > Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists > as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days > (most doctors do). Wrong again. Maybe that qualifies you to be a physician? The bigoted mind is truly amazing! Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Physical thrapists are now just starting to realize that they are part of alternative medicine. All you got to do is do a Google search on it. One physical theraptist, I know, works out of my gym. The practice is quite common.
A gym is not exactly a hospital. Ha, ... Hah, Ha! Just thought that you might want to know.
If a massage therapist doesn't want to be part of the sex industry it is because they want to me in alternative medicine.
Any pychologist who treats medical conditions is in alternative medicine. Pyschologists have finally figured out that there is a lot of money to be made in alternative medicine. They nolonger have to play second fiddle to shrinks. It is called the field of health psychology.
Boy are you stupid, SHB!
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 17 Jan 2005 18:59 GMT >>Physical thrapists are now just starting to realize that they are part of alternative medicine. All you got to do is do a Google search on it. One physical theraptist, I know, works out of my gym. The practice is quite common. A gym is not exactly a hospital. Ha, ... Hah, Ha! Just thought that you might want to know.<<
Comment: Most doctors don't work in hospitals. The point is not whether they all do, but whether ANY do.
Not only do many physical therapists work in hospitals, but all working hospitals have physical therapists. Paid for by all insurance plans which also pay for hospital care, and also by medicare and medicaid. Just thought you'd like to know.
Moron.
SBH
Mr-Natural-Health - 17 Jan 2005 23:03 GMT > >>Physical thrapists are now just starting to realize that they are > part > of alternative medicine. All you got to do is do a Google search on > it. Hey, Moron! I told you to do a Google Search. What is your problem? Don't you listen to your patients. Ha, ... Hah, Ha! What patients?
The Quack-Files: "Alternative" Physical Therapy? http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/df_article.html
The trend is so long standing and so pronnouced that even the quackbusters are complaining about it. . Just thought that you might have half a brain. Boy are you ignorant!
Piezo Guru - 16 Jan 2005 18:48 GMT Well then I guess you hit the nail on the nose. It seems, no matter what your profession, if you do not, or cannot, understand something, you are afraid of it and attack it. Chem/cut doctors are no exception and attack Alternative methods.
Fear drives it. I have had much more success with Alternative practicioners than Chem/Cut practitioners for my 53 years and so have almost all the people I know with an open mind. I have also saved the insurance companies many dollars, and myself much pain, by avoiding the chem/cut tactics and solutions. The old fashioned chem/cut practitioners are becoming the quacks, slowly but surely. Their defending by attacking is putting them to bed and losing them credibility from the masses.
It is never good to put somebody, something or some profession down in order to raise your self esteem. It almost always works in reverse.
People taking vitamins are told by doctors, as talk to them, that they have the most expensive urine. They shouldn't comment on things they know absolutely nothing about.
> Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists > as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days > (most doctors do). > > "Talk therapy" isn't magical when it's aimed at somebody who > understands it. It's only magic when it isn't. Herman Rubin - 18 Jan 2005 20:33 GMT .......................
>People taking vitamins are told by doctors, as talk to them, that they have >the most expensive urine. They shouldn't comment on things they know >absolutely nothing about. Those doctors are not up on things. There is much disagreement on how much to take, and as usual, there is a HUGE amount of individual variation, which also the medical profession has great problems with.
I have been advised by "mainstream" doctors to increase my intake of certain vitamins. The ones I am taking are not very expensive, either. The biggest problem here is that there is not enough being done on how to find the best dosage for each person.
Dr. Harris knows what he is talking about.
>> Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists >> as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days >> (most doctors do).
>> "Talk therapy" isn't magical when it's aimed at somebody who >> understands it. It's only magic when it isn't.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Mr-Natural-Health - 18 Jan 2005 21:44 GMT > Dr. Harris knows what he is talking about. Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Nope!
Mr-Natural-Health - 16 Jan 2005 05:01 GMT > >>Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if physicians did not > suck so bad in the attitude department.<< > > Given that most alternative medicine involves frank belief in magic, I must give credit to NEJM that they did not lower themselves so low as to claim that interest in alternative therapies requires belief in magic.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Belief in the ability of potions / drugs to cure, historically started out with a belief in magic.
Just thought that you might want to know.
markd@toad-net.com - 13 Jan 2005 18:05 GMT Bigot, hum, the whole tone of the remarks does seem to reflect the mental state of one. For all the cross posted victums of this tirade, this is par for the course for our friend, we apologize he got out of the ward. Don't ask rational questions, he can't or will not answer them except in kind. He is one of our resident practitioners of nutritional theology,ie. believe as I assert and don't bother me with the scientific concensus because it is by definition wrong for even existing.
|
|
|