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Medical Forum / General / General / January 2005

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chlamydia pneumoniae, skim milk and other burning questions

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Zee - 06 Jan 2005 18:23 GMT
Should we at risk for heart disease be tested for chlamydia
pneumoniae?

What is the test?

Should we consider an extended course of antibiotics if we test
positive?

Also relevant to artery health; to skim or not to skim. Isn't milk
skimmed by an oxidation process and therefore something we should
avoid?

Zee
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 07 Jan 2005 11:43 GMT
> Should we at risk for heart disease be tested for chlamydia
> pneumoniae?

In my opinion, no.

> What is the test?

Serological (antibodies that react to chlamydial antigens).

> Should we consider an extended course of antibiotics if we test
> positive?

In my opinion, no.  There is no strong evidence to support the use of
antibiotics to prevent heart disease.  Moreover, the widespread and
liberal use of antibiotics is not without risks for both the individual
and the society at large.

> Also relevant to artery health; to skim or not to skim. Isn't milk
> skimmed by an oxidation process and therefore something we should
> avoid?

Oxidized fats should be avoided.  Imo, skim milk is ok because the fats
are removed.


At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
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zwalanga@yahoo.com - 07 Jan 2005 17:47 GMT
Allright, i won't waste healthcare resources with the test, but I guess
this means I  have to give up my whole fat milk  and yogurt.
Thank you Andrew. I think....

Zee
adam_becker_sr@yahoo.com - 08 Jan 2005 16:03 GMT
Good question.  There's good evidence that Chlamydia is involved in
CHD.  See the CDC review by Campbell at
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol4no4/campbell.htm

OTOH, some studies that have looked hard for Chlamydia in heart attacks
haven't found it.
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/35/9/2024?etoc

There are essentially two assays.  If they've sliced you open for other
surgery they can scrape a little plaque out and assay it.  If that
doesn't sound inviting, they can check your blood for antibodies to
Chlamydia.

I asked my intern about being screened for C. Pneumonia antibodies.  He
was respectful of the hypothesis that C pnuemonia causes CHD.  But He
discouraged antibody testing saying, roughly
- This isn't a standard test.  There isn't a standard for
interpreting the test.  There's no known titer cutoff point for knowing
when to start treating.
- Some other species of chlamydia cause sore throat, and you could
have had a touch of C pnuemonia in your lungs at some point.  (He
didn't ask me if I'd ever had chlamydia vererially, but the point is
the same.)  If the antibody test comes up positive, it doesn't tell me
whether you've got C pnuemonia in your arterial plaque.
- If we find the antibodies, there's no standard treatment.   I don't
know what antibiotic to try.
-  I don't know how long to treat it.  Would you have to be on a course
of antibiotics for weeks?  months? years?  Will the condition come
right back as soon as the antibiotics start?  What do your antibody
titers have to fall to before we can quit?
- If the C pnuemonia is burrowed down within the arteriosclerotic
plaque (which the autopsy reports indicate is the case), it's going to
be very difficult to get enough antibiotic to it to do any good.
- It's not covered under your health plan; you'll be paying full
freight.

So I had him check my C Reactive Protein.  It's a $15 test.  I figured
that if it was low, I wouldn't worry about it.  CRP is a good indicator
of systemic inflammation.  I expect that if C Pnuemonia was chewing up
my arteries, CRP would elevate.

My CRP came back at 0.5 mg/l.  Anything below 1.0 is excellent.  So I
decided not to worry about chlamydia.

Adam Becker
Zee - 08 Jan 2005 17:06 GMT
A very good way to think about any test or procedure, including MRIs,
CAT and PET scans, lumbar punctures, surgeries. Why are we doing this,
what will we learn, what options for treatment will it lead to, will I
want to do that?

You are lucky to have such an honest and honourable physician.
Zee
Frankie - 09 Jan 2005 02:09 GMT
Zee,
When we used to eat "real" foods, we were much healthier. So continue
to enjoy your whole milk and if you have room in your yard, let Betsy
graze and provide you with the "real thing".
Frankie

>From Weston A Price Foundation Re: Real Milk [not pasteurized, not
homogenized]

Average butterfat content from old-fashioned cows at the turn of the
century was over 4% (or more than 50% of calories). Today butterfat
comprises less than 3% (or less than 35% of calories).

Worse, consumers has been duped into believing that low-fat and skim
milk products are good for them. Only by marketing low-fat and skim
milk as a health food can the modern dairy industry get rid of its
excess poor-quality, low-fat milk from modern high-production herds.

Butterfat contains vitamins A and D needed for assimilation of calcium
and protein in the water fraction of the milk. Without them protein and
calcium are more difficult to utilize and possibly toxic. Butterfat is
rich in short- and medium chain fatty acids which protect against
disease and stimulate the immune system. It contains glyco-spingolipids
which prevent intestinal distress and conjugated linoleic acid which
has strong anticancer properties.

Homogenization is a process that breaks down butterfat globules so they
do not rise to the top. Homogenized milk has been linked to heart
disease.

Source: http://www.realmilk.com/what.html
Zee - 09 Jan 2005 03:01 GMT
I do buy organic and un-homogenized Frankie. But I am afraid of
un-pasteurized (having done stories on dairies and university
experimental farms, featuring cows who wear bras and have windows in
their sides and other bad bad stuff.)

Zee
 
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