Medical Forum / General / General / January 2005
Complementary and Alternative Medicine is Mainstream
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Mr-Natural-Health - 30 Dec 2004 05:46 GMT Complementary and alternative medicine is mainstream. Scientists who like to refer to themselves as quackbusters hold a minority viewpoint. This conclusion is easily supported by 3 separate research studies which surveyed the 125 medical schools offering a MD degree, the 19 medical schools offering a DO degree, and 585 schools of nuring in the United States.
MD's - 60 percent of U.S. medical schools reported including instruction about complementary or alternative medicine (CAM) in their curricula.
"Medical education is under constant pressure to evolve.4 Changes in the medical interview over the past few years mirror this evolution. ... The rapid increase of public interest in and use of complementary and alternative therapies is likewise exerting a powerful influence on medical education.
In a study exploring the attitudes of 180 family physicians, Berman et al10 found that physicians had a high degree of interest in complementary and alternative medicine. Blumberg et al11 found similar results in 572 responses to a survey of primary care internists. More than half indicated that they would encourage patients who raise the possibility of complementary and alternative medicine, and 57% were willing to refer their patients for treatment for 6 or more complementary and alternative therapies. ...
As a profession, physicians will increasingly be expected to responsibly advise patients who use, seek, or demand complementary and alternative therapies." Wetzel MS, Eisenberg DM, Kaptchuk TJ. Courses involving complementary and alternative medicine at US medical schools. JAMA. 1998;280(9):784 -787. PMID: 9729989
DO's - 95% of Osteopathic medical school teach CAM.
"Reflecting society's interest in complementary and alternative medicine (CAM), most allopathic medical schools in the United States offer instruction in CAM. ... The authors conclude that the form and content of CAM instruction at osteopathic medical schools is similar to that offered at allopathic medical schools." Saxon DW, Tunnicliff G, Brokaw JJ, Raess BU. Status of complementary and alternative medicine in the osteopathic medical school curriculum. J Am Osteopath Assoc. 2004 Mar;104(3):121-6. PMID: 15083987
Nursing - 84.8% of US schools of nursing teach CAM.
"Schools of nursing in the United States have responded to the increasing consumer use of complementary and alternative modalities and consumer demand for health professionals knowledgeable in complementary and alternative modalities by incorporating holistic nursing practices and complementary and alternative modalities into their curricula. ... Surveys were sent to 585 US schools of nursing. ... RESULTS: Almost 60% (n = 74) of the responding schools used the definition of holistic nursing practice in their curricula and were familiar with the Holistic Nursing Core Curriculum. The majority (84.8%, n = 106) included complementary and alternative modalities in their curricula." Fenton MV, Morris DL. The integration of holistic nursing practices and complementary and alternative modalities into curricula of schools of nursing. Altern Ther Health Med. 2003 Jul-Aug;9(4):62-7. PMID: 12868254
Hence forth, since the science bigots are in the minority I will require YOU rather than me to justify your Quacky, Bigoted positions on CAM.
Just thought that you might want to know. :) -- john gohde http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/
Say not the Struggle nought Availeth - 30 Dec 2004 17:58 GMT I all in favor of complimentary or alterative medicine being more accepted. Of course, the same standards of efficacy should be applied to all.
I look forward to the day when Jan, Elena,Todd and their gang, rail against the alternative medicine oligarchy conspiracy.
Be careful what you wish for.
j.
> Complementary and alternative medicine is mainstream. Scientists who > like to refer to themselves as quackbusters hold a minority viewpoint. [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > john gohde > http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/ anon - 30 Dec 2004 18:36 GMT >>Complementary and alternative medicine is mainstream. Scientists who >>like to refer to themselves as quackbusters hold a minority viewpoint. >>This conclusion is easily supported by 3 separate research studies >>which surveyed the 125 medical schools offering a MD degree, the 19 >>medical schools offering a DO degree, and 585 schools of nuring in the >>United States. Meaningless. These aren't studies on whether or not CAM is valid, these are opinion surveys measuring interest in CAM. If you surveyed a bunch of doctors in the middle ages, they would have been big on bloodletting.
Mr-Natural-Health - 30 Dec 2004 20:31 GMT > >>Complementary and alternative medicine is mainstream. Scientists who > >>like to refer to themselves as quackbusters hold a minority viewpoint. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > are opinion surveys measuring interest in CAM. If you surveyed a bunch > of doctors in the middle ages, they would have been big on bloodletting. The problem exists only in YOUR small mind. :)
You have my condolences.
Cheers ... -- john gohde http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Mr-Natural-Health - 30 Dec 2004 20:34 GMT > I all in favor of complimentary or alterative medicine being more > accepted. Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
It is accepted. Don't you think that it is about time you have figured out that the science bigots have lost the battle? -- john gohde http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Say not the Struggle nought Availeth - 31 Dec 2004 03:58 GMT science always beats non-science.
j.
btw If it weren't for science we would not be having this conversation.
>>I all in favor of complimentary or alterative medicine being more >>accepted. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > john gohde > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health Mr-Natural-Health - 31 Dec 2004 21:39 GMT You are in the minority. You own the problem. You are politically incorrect. You are culturally insensitive. Your thoughts are the result of a disease process. Your ilk will be eradicateed by the cultural elite. You have my condolences. Now, kindly drop dead. :)
Say not the Struggle nought Availeth - 01 Jan 2005 07:20 GMT I will live longer than my parents, and my grand-parents, due to science.
I will live longer than you, especially if you reject the views of your closest scientific advisor, your doctor.
j.
BTW, the same to you.
> You are in the minority. > You own the problem. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You have my condolences. > Now, kindly drop dead. :) Piezo Guru - 01 Jan 2005 20:42 GMT Doctors are not scientific. That is why they have a "practice"
> I will live longer than my parents, and my grand-parents, due to science. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > You have my condolences. > > Now, kindly drop dead. :) Mr-Natural-Health - 01 Jan 2005 07:52 GMT > Be careful what you wish for. Consider this notification that your viewpoint has been offically classified obsolete by the scientific community. :)
Few knowledgeable persons would argue against the wisdom of Complementary and Alternative Medicine being mainstream. You can continue to hide your head in the sand, but the public is definitely using CAM, big time. According to JAMA: "Reasons cited for the trend toward the use of alternative therapies include dissatisfaction with conventional health care that is perceived as ineffectual, too expensive, or too focused on curing disease rather than maintaining good health. Alternative therapies are often seen as less authoritarian and more congruent with patients' values and beliefs about the meaning of health and illness." JAMA refers to this trend as part of the "relentless challenge to evolve."
If physicians are to guide their many patients who are using CAM modalities toward a safe and more integrated approach, they must be knowledgeable about them.
The extent to which patients disclose their use of alternative therapies to their physicians is extremely low, thanks to sh.t-heads like you. :)
You are in the minority. You own the problem. You are politically incorrect. You are culturally insensitive. Your thoughts are the result of a disease brain process. If you do not get it, Jack, that is because you are defective. :) You people are responsible for the erosion of the patient-physician relationship. Your ilk will be eradicateed by the cultural elite. :) You have my condolences. Now, kindly drop dead. :)
Educate yourself by reading the full text of: Park CM. Diversity, the individual, and proof of efficacy: complementary and alternative medicine in medical education. Am J Public Health. 2002;92(10):1568 -1572. -- john gohde http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
kyernurse - 01 Jan 2005 14:19 GMT The extent to which patients disclose their use of alternative therapies to their physicians is extremely low, thanks to sh.t-heads like you. :)
Broadcast posting to sci.med.nutrition, sci.med, sci.life-extension, talk.politics.medicine and sci.med.nursing and you come here calling people names?
You are in the minority. You own the problem. You are politically incorrect. You are culturally insensitive. Your thoughts are the result of a disease brain process. If you do not get it, Jack, that is because you are defective. :) You people are responsible for the erosion of the patient-physician relationship. Your ilk will be eradicateed by the cultural elite. :) You have my condolences. Now, kindly drop dead. :)
I love this last line. This has what connection to the healing process?
David Wright - 01 Jan 2005 17:14 GMT >>The extent to which patients disclose their use of alternative >>therapies to their physicians is extremely low, thanks to sh.t-heads [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >I love this last line. This has what connection to the healing process? Well, it's the only cure for what ails Gohde. He's a moron who thinks he's a genius -- and when you already think you know all the answers, you don't have to ask any questions.
He also has no teeth -- which should give one pause, I think. I personally would be quite dubious about taking health advice from someone who's lost all his teeth. Wouldn't you?
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Mr-Natural-Health - 01 Jan 2005 19:10 GMT > when you already think you know all the answers, > you don't have to ask any questions. Sounds like the position of the science bigots to me. :)
I shall repeat it again for the benefit of the mentally challenged.
YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at large.
For proof of the above accertion YOU can try reading the full text of: Park CM. Diversity, the individual, and proof of efficacy: complementary and alternative medicine in medical education. Am J Public Health. 2002;92(10):1568 -1572. http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/full/92/10/1568
This is a restricted access article, of course. I have full access to it, don't you? If you send me lots of green stuff in the mail, I might in a cold day in hell email you the pdf file.
Just to point out just exactly how stupid Mr. Wrong is, this is a brand new position for me. :)
Hence forth, my NEW position will be that the scientific community has long ago decided that YOUR minority viewpoint is irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at large.
Just thought that you might want to know, Mr. Stupid Face. :) -- john gohde http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Mr-Natural-Health - 01 Jan 2005 20:45 GMT The following is selective quotations from two different restricted access articles which pontificate on why YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at large.
"A widely cited justification for this inclusion, sometimes offered in a spirit of resignation, is that with the growing number of patients using these therapies physicians must know about-and learn to educate patients about-potential dangers, including toxicities and drug interactions. A more CAM-friendly position adds that knowledge of the patient's CAM use builds a stronger patient-physician relationship by allowing the patient to speak about and ask questions about CAM and by giving the provider a window into the patient's approach to health and healing. A still more CAM-friendly position further adds that at least some CAM therapies, though not adequately studied in wellcontrolled trials, might plausibly improve health outcomes, and patients should not be denied the option of these possibly helpful therapies when dealing with health concerns in the here and now. ... Evidence-based medicine uses the methodologies of clinical epidemiology to identify and compare the health outcomes of various interventions.22-24 A fundamental fact of clinical practice is that we are applying data gained from populations to one person, without knowing how these probabilistic data relate to this one unique individual.25 If a therapy is the best choice for 7 out of 10 people, how do we predict whether our patient is in that 70% or is in the 30% of exceptions? This inevitable uncertainty is often called the N-of-1 problem, referring to the fact that we can never do clinical trials on large numbers of patients identical to the one before us because that patient is unique. Progressively larger studies, with statistical power for deeper levels of subgroup analysis, can provide us with progressively more textured information on how the study results apply to patients resembling our single individual patient. But no matter how large the study and how detailed the subgroup analysis, we will never have data detailed enough to provide with absolute certainty the answer for our one unique patient.
It is instructive to consider how this reality of evidence-based medicine may affect patient and practitioner behavior, and the patient-practitioner relationship, in various types of therapeutic interventions. For some interventions, like choosing one toxic drug over another or surgery over radiotherapy in cancer treatment, the patient and the disease process may change substantially with the passage of time or with each intervention, and there is no second chance to go down the road not taken. In such cases, practitioners may treat all patients with the 70% effective treatment, the bestdocumented strategy for maximizing group outcome. At other times, however, practitioners may want to rely on unproven, difficult-to-codify clues, personal experience, or even feelings (their own or the patient's) to choose the other therapy.26,27 It is likely that most patients want their physicians not only to be well informed about evidence-based medicine28 but also to have this individualizing option in clinical decisionmaking and to know individual patients well enough to exercise that option meaningfully.
Given this N-of-1 problem, it is likely that many patients seek additional complementary therapies not only to feel more comfortable or more generally in control29 but more specifically to take part in the search for a package individualized to their unique needs. The fact that many CAM hands-on therapies appear to be based on the immediate perception and treatment of "findings" (e.g., muscle spasms, subluxed joints, or blocked energy), present at that time in that patient, probably increases the patient's sense of being treated as a unique individual, a sense often missing in evidence-based medicine. If this therapy conveys an underlying message with personal meaning that speaks to that patient's sense of self, it may prove particularly attractive.30-32 And if the therapy is understudied and considered unproved, but appears safe and feels good, it may be attractive exactly because it is not overtly associated with statistics, leaving freer reign for the patient's imagination and sense of hope, both factors that may themselves have positive physiological as well as psychological effects.
A variety of therapeutic interventions in both conventional medicine and CAM do allow for serial trials with an individual patient over time, such as an internist trying out various antihypertensives or an acupuncturist trying out related acupuncture points on a given patient. There is a set of epidemiological rules for evaluating the observed results in so-called "N-of-1 experiments."33 Despite problems of proving causation, it is likely that these trials provide patients with therapies more suitable to their needs, as well as a comforting sense of being respected and cared for as unique individuals.
In cases in which they are feasible, therapeutic trials with individual patients play an important role in helping clinicians deal with the N-of-1 problem present in both conventional and CAM interventions. But these sequential trials regard the patient as effectively being the same person despite the passage of time. It is important to note that some traditional medicine systems do not accept this approximation under any circumstances and see themselves as always providing each individual with the most effective treatment possible at each point in time. Discussing this stance in an academic setting clearly provides an opportunity to question how any practitioner can claim to know for sure what is best in a unique case. It also provides an opportunity to note and probe the therapeutic power of a conveyed sense of certainty and respect for the ever-changing individual. What is the nature of this appeal, which exists even when the patient's cognitive processes dictate that such certainty is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence?
Because of the complexity of total patient care and the individual needs of each unique patient, there is more to the practice of both conventional medicine and CAM than the information emerging from clinical trials. To address the N-of-1 problem, both conventional and CAM practitioners operate outside the bounds of evidence-based medicine, at least some of the time. A discussion of this reality and how practitioners and patients cope with it, conducted by practitioners of CAM, integrative medicine, and conventional medicine, would help students deal with uncertainty as they care for each individual patient."
Park CM. Diversity, the individual, and proof of efficacy: complementary and alternative medicine in medical education. Am J Public Health. 2002;92(10):1568 -1572. http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/full/92/10/1568
In addition ...
"The scientific model vastly improved medical practice by defining, with increasing certainty, the pathophysiological basis of disease. One result has been a progressively better understanding of human biology and greatly enhanced ability to improve the outcome of disease. Another result, unfortunately, has been an unexpected and unintended erosion of the patient-physician relationship. ... In all, the historical role of the physician as comprehensive caregiver has markedly diminished. The combination of deteriorated patient-physician relationships, the high reliance on expensive and invasive technology, and the widespread perception that physicians today are more focused on disease than on healing and wellness has opened tremendous opportunities for providers of alternative therapies.3 Nearly 50% of Americans are now using alternative medicine, and the amount of money they spend on it exceeds the amount of money spent on primary care medicine. ... We must admit that our current delivery system as a whole is no longer able to deliver the best of care to most people. In fact, it may collapse totally because of its inability to provide what the public, the profession, and the purchasers want and need. ... Most Americans who consult alternative providers would probably jump at the chance to consult a physician who is well trained in scientifically based medicine and who is also open-minded and knowledgeable about the body's innate mechanisms of healing, the role of lifestyle factors in influencing health, and the appropriate uses of dietary supplements, herbs, and other forms of treatment, from osteopathic manipulation to Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine. In other words, they want competent help in navigating the confusing maze of therapeutic options that are available today, especially in those cases in which conventional approaches are relatively ineffective or harmful. Unfortunately, that option is not generally available: physicians with the desired attitudes, knowledge, and training are few and far between. It is out of great frustration that many patients enter the world of CAM and its practices that run the gamut from the sensible and worthwhile to the ridiculous and even dangerous."
Snyderman R, Weil AT. Integrative medicine: bringing medicine back to its roots. Arch Intern Med. 2002;162:395-397. PMID: 11863470 -- john gohde http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Mr-Natural-Health - 02 Jan 2005 15:01 GMT Excuse me, but I did NOT do a proper job of trashing this piece of trash. So, I will do the job right this time around.
> He also has no teeth This piece of trash, called a typical science bigot clearly thinks that people with dentures are second class citizens.
The problem of course is not that this particular piece of sh.t is a science bigot, or that all nursess on this thread are slime balls just like Mr. Wrong, it is that there are actually physicians and nurses out their who think precisely the same way. :(
Surprise, surprise, ... surprise: patients don't exist for the benefit of doctors and nurses. Nurses and doctors exist for the benefit of people with dentures. :)
YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at large.
Just thought that you might want to know. And, if you have not figured it out yet, Mr. Wrong. I happen to love my dentures.
David Wright - 03 Jan 2005 05:09 GMT >Excuse me, but I did NOT do a proper job of trashing this piece of >trash. So, I will do the job right this time around. That'd be a first, and, as usual, you failed to deliver.
>> He also has no teeth > >This piece of trash, called a typical science bigot clearly thinks that >people with dentures are second class citizens. No, I don't. What I do think is that someone with no teeth is not necessarily a great source of health information.
>YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the >public at large. I'm not endangering anyone. I'm not a doctor, or a nurse for that matter.
>Just thought that you might want to know. And, if you have not figured >it out yet, Mr. Wrong. I happen to love my dentures. Congratulations. I'm sure your diet of soft foods is highly gratifying to you.
So, tell me -- if your legions of devoted readers (har har har) follow your health advice, will they follow you to the land of dentures as well? I visualize you as being like Calvin (of "Calvin and Hobbes"), proclaiming yourself a super-genius and possibly wearing a self-made "super genius" badge.
Go ahead, pontificate all you want about "science." Your understanding is so poor that every time you try to do it, legions of people appear as if from nowhere to explain where you've gone wrong.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Mr-Natural-Health - 03 Jan 2005 06:09 GMT Go ahead, pontificate all you want about people with dentures. Your understanding is so poor that every time you try to do it, I get a good chuckle. :)
YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at large.
And, that also includes sh.t-heads like Mr. Wrong even if they are not a physician or a nurse. . Just thought that you might want to know
John Que - 03 Jan 2005 12:47 GMT David, you must be hard up to be interacting with Johnny Gohde.
And that also go for you Gohde.
Mr-Natural-Health - 03 Jan 2005 22:37 GMT YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at large.
David Wright - 04 Jan 2005 04:17 GMT >David, you must be hard up to be interacting with Johnny Gohde. > >And that also go for you Gohde. Interacting with him does leave me with a rather slimy feeling, now that you mention it. That's why I don't often do it.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Mr-Natural-Health - 04 Jan 2005 04:49 GMT > Interacting with him does leave me with a rather slimy feeling, now > that you mention it. That's why I don't often do it. Letting me know that I was successful in my chosen task is always welcome, Mr. Wrong. :)
I rather enjoy making science bigots look stupid. I only wish that my job would be more challenging. You guys are too easy. :( . Just thought that you might want to know.
Say not the Struggle nought Availeth - 04 Jan 2005 21:11 GMT science bigot is an oxymoron.
Bigot: one whose mind is made up and is resistant to change.
Science: a system of investigation in which all beliefs are subject to falsification.
j.
You are guilty of that which you accuse others of.
>>Interacting with him does leave me with a rather slimy feeling, now >>that you mention it. That's why I don't often do it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > . > Just thought that you might want to know. Mr-Natural-Health - 04 Jan 2005 22:10 GMT > science bigot is an oxymoron. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You are guilty of that which you accuse others of. Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Tell me another stupid lie, Mr. Bigot.
I am the only person to both cite and quote research to support their position on this THREAD.
One whose mind is made up and is resistant to change does NOT look at research, becuase they are close minded.
Just thought that you might want to know, Mr. Bigot. :) -- john gohde http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Mr-Natural-Health - 04 Jan 2005 11:45 GMT > I'm not a doctor, or a nurse for that matter. You said that I failed to deliver. :(
So, that means that you are not medically trained. So, we do have something in common after all. Go figure? . You have my condolences. :)
Mr-Natural-Health - 01 Jan 2005 18:47 GMT > The extent to which patients disclose their use of alternative > therapies to their physicians is extremely low, thanks to sh.t-heads [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > talk.politics.medicine and sci.med.nursing and you come here calling people > names? This point iw worth repeating. :)
The scientific community has long ago decided that YOUR minority viewpoint is irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at large.
I shall repeat it again for the benefit of the mentally challenged.
YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at large.
For proof of the above accertion YOU can try reading the full text of: Park CM. Diversity, the individual, and proof of efficacy: complementary and alternative medicine in medical education. Am J Public Health. 2002;92(10):1568 -1572.
I have already read it. :) -- john gohde http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
tcarter2@elp.rr.com - 02 Jan 2005 18:10 GMT Hi, The strongest reason patients don't reveal thier use of natural medicine to their doctors is DOCTORS DON'T ASK. Doctors are in much better position than patients to be aware of what they need to know and they seldom ask about the use of vitamin, mineral, or other supplemental use even tho over half of their patients make use of them. Another contributing reason is that patients feel such disclosure will alter their doctor's feelings towards them for the worse. While patients bear the brunt of responsibility for this secondary reason, the antagonistic attitude of doctors towards supplemental use is also causitive in this respect as well. Blame, is a pecular noun. While devoid of mass or energy, it nevertheless carries sigficant weight, and when tossed about always lands on the other side of a fence.
Thomas
Mr-Natural-Health - 02 Jan 2005 21:20 GMT > Another contributing reason is that patients feel such disclosure will > alter their doctor's feelings towards them for the worse. ... > the antagonistic attitude of doctors towards supplemental use is also > causitive in this respect as well. Exactly, ... YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at large.
You guys try to blame it on everybody, but yourself.
You have my condolences. -- john gohde http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
gerrymorrow@doctors.org.uk - 30 Dec 2004 18:06 GMT > Complementary and alternative medicine is mainstream. Scientists who > like to refer to themselves as quackbusters hold a minority viewpoint. [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > john gohde > http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/
|
|
|