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Medical Forum / General / General / January 2005

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Complementary and Alternative Medicine is Mainstream

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Mr-Natural-Health - 30 Dec 2004 05:46 GMT
Complementary and alternative medicine is mainstream. Scientists who
like to refer to themselves as quackbusters hold a minority viewpoint.
This conclusion is easily supported by 3 separate research studies
which surveyed the 125 medical schools offering a MD degree, the 19
medical schools offering a DO degree, and 585 schools of nuring in the
United States.

MD's - 60 percent of U.S. medical schools reported including
instruction about complementary or alternative medicine (CAM) in their
curricula.

"Medical education is under constant pressure to evolve.4 Changes in
the medical interview over the past few years mirror this evolution.
... The rapid increase of public interest in and use of complementary
and alternative therapies is likewise exerting a powerful influence on
medical education.

In a study exploring the attitudes of 180 family physicians, Berman et
al10 found that physicians had a high degree of interest in
complementary and alternative medicine. Blumberg et al11 found similar
results in 572 responses to a survey of primary care internists. More
than half indicated that they would encourage patients who raise the
possibility of complementary and alternative medicine, and 57% were
willing to refer their patients for treatment for 6 or more
complementary and alternative therapies. ...

As a profession, physicians will increasingly be expected to
responsibly advise patients who use, seek, or demand complementary and
alternative therapies."
Wetzel MS, Eisenberg DM, Kaptchuk TJ. Courses involving complementary
and alternative medicine at US medical schools. JAMA. 1998;280(9):784
-787. PMID: 9729989

DO's - 95% of Osteopathic medical school teach CAM.

"Reflecting society's interest in complementary and alternative
medicine (CAM), most allopathic medical schools in the United States
offer instruction in CAM. ... The authors conclude that the form and
content of CAM instruction at osteopathic medical schools is similar to
that offered at allopathic medical schools."
Saxon DW, Tunnicliff G, Brokaw JJ, Raess BU. Status of complementary
and alternative medicine in the osteopathic medical school curriculum.
J Am Osteopath Assoc. 2004 Mar;104(3):121-6. PMID: 15083987

Nursing - 84.8% of US schools of nursing teach CAM.

"Schools of nursing in the United States have responded to the
increasing consumer use of complementary and alternative modalities and
consumer demand for health professionals knowledgeable in complementary
and alternative modalities by incorporating holistic nursing practices
and complementary and alternative modalities into their curricula. ...
Surveys were sent to 585 US schools of nursing. ... RESULTS: Almost 60%
(n = 74) of the responding schools used the definition of holistic
nursing practice in their curricula and were familiar with the Holistic
Nursing Core Curriculum. The majority (84.8%, n = 106) included
complementary and alternative modalities in their curricula."
Fenton MV, Morris DL. The integration of holistic nursing practices and
complementary and alternative modalities into curricula of schools of
nursing.
Altern Ther Health Med. 2003 Jul-Aug;9(4):62-7. PMID: 12868254

Hence forth, since the science bigots are in the minority I will
require YOU rather than me to justify your Quacky, Bigoted positions on
CAM.

Just thought that you might want to know. :)
--
john gohde
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/
Say not the Struggle nought Availeth - 30 Dec 2004 17:58 GMT
I all in favor of complimentary or alterative medicine being more
accepted.  Of course, the same standards of efficacy should be applied
to all.

I look forward to the day when Jan, Elena,Todd and their gang,  rail
against the alternative medicine oligarchy conspiracy.

Be careful what you wish for.

j.

> Complementary and alternative medicine is mainstream. Scientists who
> like to refer to themselves as quackbusters hold a minority viewpoint.
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> john gohde
> http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/
anon - 30 Dec 2004 18:36 GMT
>>Complementary and alternative medicine is mainstream. Scientists who
>>like to refer to themselves as quackbusters hold a minority viewpoint.
>>This conclusion is easily supported by 3 separate research studies
>>which surveyed the 125 medical schools offering a MD degree, the 19
>>medical schools offering a DO degree, and 585 schools of nuring in the
>>United States.

Meaningless.  These aren't studies on whether or not CAM is valid, these
are opinion surveys measuring interest in CAM.  If you surveyed a bunch
of doctors in the middle ages, they would have been big on bloodletting.
Mr-Natural-Health - 30 Dec 2004 20:31 GMT
> >>Complementary and alternative medicine is mainstream. Scientists who
> >>like to refer to themselves as quackbusters hold a minority viewpoint.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> are opinion surveys measuring interest in CAM.  If you surveyed a bunch
> of doctors in the middle ages, they would have been big on bloodletting.

The problem exists only in YOUR small mind. :)

You have my condolences.

Cheers ...
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Mr-Natural-Health - 30 Dec 2004 20:34 GMT
> I all in favor of complimentary or alterative medicine being more
> accepted.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

It is accepted.  Don't you think that it is about time you have figured
out that the science bigots have lost the battle?
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Say not the Struggle nought Availeth - 31 Dec 2004 03:58 GMT
science always beats non-science.

j.

btw
If it weren't for science we would not be having this conversation.

>>I all in favor of complimentary or alterative medicine being more
>>accepted.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> john gohde
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Mr-Natural-Health - 31 Dec 2004 21:39 GMT
You are in the minority.
You own the problem.
You are politically incorrect.
You are culturally insensitive.
Your thoughts are the result of a disease process.
Your ilk will be eradicateed by the cultural elite.
You have my condolences.
Now, kindly drop dead. :)
Say not the Struggle nought Availeth - 01 Jan 2005 07:20 GMT
I will live longer than my parents, and my grand-parents, due to science.

I will live longer than you, especially if you reject the views of your
closest scientific advisor, your doctor.

j.

BTW, the same to you.

> You are in the minority.
> You own the problem.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You have my condolences.
> Now, kindly drop dead. :)
Piezo Guru - 01 Jan 2005 20:42 GMT
Doctors are not scientific. That is why they have a "practice"

> I will live longer than my parents, and my grand-parents, due to science.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> > You have my condolences.
> > Now, kindly drop dead. :)
Mr-Natural-Health - 01 Jan 2005 07:52 GMT
> Be careful what you wish for.

Consider this notification that your viewpoint has been offically
classified obsolete by the scientific community. :)

Few knowledgeable persons would argue against the wisdom of
Complementary and Alternative Medicine being mainstream. You can
continue to hide your head in the sand, but the public is definitely
using CAM, big time. According to JAMA: "Reasons cited for the trend
toward the use of alternative therapies include dissatisfaction with
conventional health care that is perceived as ineffectual, too
expensive, or too focused on curing disease rather than maintaining
good health. Alternative therapies are often seen as less authoritarian
and more congruent with patients' values and beliefs about the meaning
of health and illness." JAMA refers to this trend as part of the
"relentless challenge to evolve."

If physicians are to guide their many patients who are using CAM
modalities toward a safe and more integrated approach, they must be
knowledgeable about them.

The extent to which patients disclose their use of alternative
therapies to their physicians is extremely low, thanks to sh.t-heads
like you. :)

You are in the minority.
You own the problem.
You are politically incorrect.
You are culturally insensitive.
Your thoughts are the result of a disease brain process.
If you do not get it, Jack, that is because you are defective. :)
You people are responsible for the erosion of the patient-physician
relationship.
Your ilk will be eradicateed by the cultural elite. :)
You have my condolences.
Now, kindly drop dead. :)

Educate yourself by reading the full text of:
Park CM. Diversity, the individual, and proof of efficacy:
complementary and alternative medicine in medical education. Am J
Public Health. 2002;92(10):1568 -1572.
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
kyernurse - 01 Jan 2005 14:19 GMT
The extent to which patients disclose their use of alternative
therapies to their physicians is extremely low, thanks to sh.t-heads
like you. :)

Broadcast posting to sci.med.nutrition, sci.med, sci.life-extension,
talk.politics.medicine and sci.med.nursing and you come here calling people
names?

You are in the minority.
You own the problem.
You are politically incorrect.
You are culturally insensitive.
Your thoughts are the result of a disease brain process.
If you do not get it, Jack, that is because you are defective. :)
You people are responsible for the erosion of the patient-physician
relationship.
Your ilk will be eradicateed by the cultural elite. :)
You have my condolences.
Now, kindly drop dead. :)

I love this last line.  This has what connection to the healing process?
David Wright - 01 Jan 2005 17:14 GMT
>>The extent to which patients disclose their use of alternative
>>therapies to their physicians is extremely low, thanks to sh.t-heads
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>I love this last line.  This has what connection to the healing process?

Well, it's the only cure for what ails Gohde.  He's a moron who thinks
he's a genius -- and when you already think you know all the answers,
you don't have to ask any questions.

He also has no teeth -- which should give one pause, I think.  I
personally would be quite dubious about taking health advice from
someone who's lost all his teeth.  Wouldn't you?

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
          were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Mr-Natural-Health - 01 Jan 2005 19:10 GMT
> when you already think you know all the answers,
> you don't have to ask any questions.

Sounds like the position of the science bigots to me. :)

I shall repeat it again for the benefit of the mentally challenged.

YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the
public at large.

For proof of the above accertion YOU can try reading the full text of:
Park CM. Diversity, the individual, and proof of efficacy:
complementary and alternative medicine in medical education. Am J
Public Health. 2002;92(10):1568 -1572.
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/full/92/10/1568

This is a restricted access article, of course.  I have full access to
it, don't you? If you send me lots of green stuff in the mail, I might
in a cold day in hell email you the pdf file.

Just to point out just exactly how stupid Mr. Wrong is, this is a brand
new position for me. :)

Hence forth, my NEW position will be that the  scientific community has
long ago decided that YOUR minority viewpoint is irresponsibly
endangering the safety of the public at large.

Just thought that you might want to know, Mr. Stupid Face. :)
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Mr-Natural-Health - 01 Jan 2005 20:45 GMT
The following is selective quotations from two different restricted
access articles which pontificate on why YOU science bigots are
irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at large.

"A widely cited justification for this inclusion, sometimes offered in
a spirit of resignation, is that with the growing number of patients
using these therapies physicians must know about-and learn to educate
patients about-potential dangers, including toxicities and drug
interactions. A more CAM-friendly position adds that knowledge of the
patient's CAM use builds a stronger patient-physician relationship
by allowing the patient to speak about and ask questions about CAM and
by giving the provider a window into the patient's approach to health
and healing. A still more CAM-friendly position further adds that at
least some CAM therapies, though not adequately studied in
wellcontrolled trials, might plausibly improve health outcomes, and
patients should not be denied the option of these possibly helpful
therapies when dealing with health concerns in the here and now.
...
Evidence-based medicine uses the methodologies of clinical epidemiology
to identify and compare the health outcomes of various
interventions.22-24 A fundamental fact of clinical practice is that
we are applying data gained from populations to one person, without
knowing how these probabilistic data relate to this one unique
individual.25 If a therapy is the best choice for 7 out of 10 people,
how do we predict whether our patient is in that 70% or is in the 30%
of exceptions? This inevitable uncertainty is often called the N-of-1
problem, referring to the fact that we can never do clinical trials on
large numbers of patients identical to the one before us because that
patient is unique. Progressively larger studies, with statistical power
for deeper levels of subgroup analysis, can provide us with
progressively more textured information on how the study results apply
to patients resembling our single individual patient. But no matter how
large the study and how detailed the subgroup analysis, we will never
have data detailed enough to provide with absolute certainty the answer
for our one unique patient.

It is instructive to consider how this reality of evidence-based
medicine may affect patient and practitioner behavior, and the
patient-practitioner relationship, in various types of therapeutic
interventions. For some interventions, like choosing one toxic drug
over another or surgery over radiotherapy in cancer treatment, the
patient and the disease process may change substantially with the
passage of time or with each intervention, and there is no second
chance to go down the road not taken. In such cases, practitioners may
treat all patients with the 70% effective treatment, the bestdocumented
strategy for maximizing group outcome. At other times, however,
practitioners may want to rely on unproven, difficult-to-codify clues,
personal experience, or even feelings (their own or the patient's) to
choose the other therapy.26,27 It is likely that most patients want
their physicians not only to be well informed about evidence-based
medicine28 but also to have this individualizing option in clinical
decisionmaking and to know individual patients well enough to exercise
that option meaningfully.

Given this N-of-1 problem, it is likely that many patients seek
additional complementary therapies not only to feel more comfortable or
more generally in control29 but more specifically to take part in the
search for a package individualized to their unique needs. The fact
that many CAM hands-on therapies appear to be based on the immediate
perception and treatment of "findings" (e.g., muscle spasms, subluxed
joints, or blocked energy), present at that time in that patient,
probably increases the patient's sense of being treated as a unique
individual, a sense often missing in evidence-based medicine. If this
therapy conveys an underlying message with personal meaning that speaks
to that patient's sense of self, it may prove particularly
attractive.30-32 And if the therapy is understudied and considered
unproved, but appears safe and feels good, it may be attractive exactly
because it is not overtly associated with statistics, leaving freer
reign for the patient's imagination and sense of hope, both factors
that may themselves have positive physiological as well as
psychological effects.

A variety of therapeutic interventions in both conventional medicine
and CAM do allow for serial trials with an individual patient over
time, such as an internist trying out various antihypertensives or an
acupuncturist trying out related acupuncture points on a given patient.
There is a set of epidemiological rules for evaluating the observed
results in so-called "N-of-1 experiments."33 Despite problems of
proving causation, it is likely that these trials provide patients with
therapies more suitable to their needs, as well as a comforting sense
of being respected and cared for as unique individuals.

In cases in which they are feasible, therapeutic trials with individual
patients play an important role in helping clinicians deal with the
N-of-1 problem present in both conventional and CAM interventions. But
these sequential trials regard the patient as effectively being the
same person despite the passage of time. It is important to note that
some traditional medicine systems do not accept this approximation
under any circumstances and see themselves as always providing each
individual with the most effective treatment possible at each point in
time. Discussing this stance in an academic setting clearly provides an
opportunity to question how any practitioner can claim to know for sure
what is best in a unique case. It also provides an opportunity to note
and probe the therapeutic power of a conveyed sense of certainty and
respect for the ever-changing individual. What is the nature of this
appeal, which exists even when the patient's cognitive processes
dictate that such certainty is an extraordinary claim requiring
extraordinary evidence?

Because of the complexity of total patient care and the individual
needs of each unique patient, there is more to the practice of both
conventional medicine and CAM than the information emerging from
clinical trials. To address the N-of-1 problem, both conventional and
CAM practitioners operate outside the bounds of evidence-based
medicine, at least some of the time. A discussion of this reality and
how practitioners and patients cope with it, conducted by practitioners
of CAM, integrative medicine, and conventional medicine, would help
students deal with uncertainty as they care for each individual
patient."

Park CM. Diversity, the individual, and proof of efficacy:
complementary and alternative medicine in medical education. Am J
Public Health. 2002;92(10):1568 -1572.
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/full/92/10/1568

In addition ...

"The scientific model vastly improved medical practice by defining,
with increasing certainty, the pathophysiological basis of disease. One
result has been a progressively better understanding of human biology
and greatly enhanced ability to improve the outcome of disease. Another
result, unfortunately, has been an unexpected and unintended erosion of
the patient-physician relationship.
...
In all, the historical role of the physician as comprehensive caregiver
has markedly diminished. The combination of deteriorated
patient-physician relationships, the high reliance on expensive and
invasive technology, and the widespread perception that physicians
today are more focused on disease than on healing and wellness has
opened tremendous opportunities for providers of alternative
therapies.3 Nearly 50% of Americans are now using alternative medicine,
and the amount of money they spend on it exceeds the amount of money
spent on primary care medicine.
...
We must admit that our current delivery system as a whole is no longer
able to deliver the best of care to most people. In fact, it may
collapse totally because of its inability to provide what the public,
the profession, and the purchasers want and need.
...
Most Americans who consult alternative providers would probably jump at
the chance to consult a physician who is well trained in scientifically
based medicine and who is also open-minded and knowledgeable about the
body's innate mechanisms of healing, the role of lifestyle factors in
influencing health, and the appropriate uses of dietary supplements,
herbs, and other forms of treatment, from osteopathic manipulation to
Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine. In other words, they want competent
help in navigating the confusing maze of therapeutic options that are
available today, especially in those cases in which conventional
approaches are relatively ineffective or harmful. Unfortunately, that
option is not generally available: physicians with the desired
attitudes, knowledge, and training are few and far between. It is out
of great frustration that many patients enter the world of CAM and its
practices that run the gamut from the sensible and worthwhile to the
ridiculous and even dangerous."

Snyderman R, Weil AT. Integrative medicine: bringing medicine back to
its roots. Arch Intern Med. 2002;162:395-397. PMID: 11863470
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Mr-Natural-Health - 02 Jan 2005 15:01 GMT
Excuse me, but I did NOT do a proper job of trashing this piece of
trash.  So, I will do the job right this time around.

> He also has no teeth

This piece of trash, called a typical science bigot clearly thinks that
people with dentures are second class citizens.

The problem of course is not that this particular piece of sh.t is a
science bigot, or that all nursess on this thread are slime balls just
like Mr. Wrong, it is that there are actually physicians and nurses out
their who think precisely the same way. :(

Surprise, surprise, ... surprise:  patients don't exist for the benefit
of doctors and nurses.  Nurses and doctors exist for the benefit of
people with dentures. :)

YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the
public at large.

Just thought that you might want to know.  And, if you have not figured
it out yet, Mr. Wrong.  I happen to love my dentures.
David Wright - 03 Jan 2005 05:09 GMT
>Excuse me, but I did NOT do a proper job of trashing this piece of
>trash.  So, I will do the job right this time around.

That'd be a first, and, as usual, you failed to deliver.

>> He also has no teeth
>
>This piece of trash, called a typical science bigot clearly thinks that
>people with dentures are second class citizens.

No, I don't.  What I do think is that someone with no teeth is not
necessarily a great source of health information.

>YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the
>public at large.

I'm not endangering anyone.  I'm not a doctor, or a nurse for that
matter.

>Just thought that you might want to know.  And, if you have not figured
>it out yet, Mr. Wrong.  I happen to love my dentures.

Congratulations.  I'm sure your diet of soft foods is highly
gratifying to you.

So, tell me -- if your legions of devoted readers (har har har) follow
your health advice, will they follow you to the land of dentures as
well?  I visualize you as being like Calvin (of "Calvin and Hobbes"),
proclaiming yourself a super-genius and possibly wearing a self-made
"super genius" badge.

Go ahead, pontificate all you want about "science."  Your
understanding is so poor that every time you try to do it, legions of
people appear as if from nowhere to explain where you've gone wrong.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
          were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Mr-Natural-Health - 03 Jan 2005 06:09 GMT
Go ahead, pontificate all you want about people with dentures. Your
understanding is so poor that every time you try to do it, I get a good
chuckle. :)

YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the
public at large.

And, that also includes sh.t-heads like Mr. Wrong even if they are not
a physician or a nurse.
.
Just thought that you might want to know
John Que - 03 Jan 2005 12:47 GMT
David, you must be hard up to be interacting with Johnny Gohde.

And that also go for you Gohde.
Mr-Natural-Health - 03 Jan 2005 22:37 GMT
YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the
public at large.
David Wright - 04 Jan 2005 04:17 GMT
>David, you must be hard up to be interacting with Johnny Gohde.
>
>And that also go for you Gohde.

Interacting with him does leave me with a rather slimy feeling, now
that you mention it.  That's why I don't often do it.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
          were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Mr-Natural-Health - 04 Jan 2005 04:49 GMT
> Interacting with him does leave me with a rather slimy feeling, now
> that you mention it.  That's why I don't often do it.

Letting me know that I was successful in my chosen task is always
welcome, Mr. Wrong. :)

I rather enjoy making science bigots look stupid.  I only wish that my
job would be more challenging.  You guys are too easy. :(
.
Just thought that you might want to know.
Say not the Struggle nought Availeth - 04 Jan 2005 21:11 GMT
science bigot is an oxymoron.

Bigot:    one whose mind is made up and is resistant to change.

Science:    a system of investigation in which all beliefs are    
       subject to falsification.

j.

You are guilty of that which you accuse others of.

>>Interacting with him does leave me with a rather slimy feeling, now
>>that you mention it.  That's why I don't often do it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> .
> Just thought that you might want to know.
Mr-Natural-Health - 04 Jan 2005 22:10 GMT
> science bigot is an oxymoron.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You are guilty of that which you accuse others of.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Tell me another stupid lie, Mr. Bigot.

I am the only person to both cite and quote research to support their
position on this THREAD.

One whose mind is made up and is resistant to change does NOT look at
research, becuase they are close minded.

Just thought that you might want to know, Mr. Bigot. :)
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
Mr-Natural-Health - 04 Jan 2005 11:45 GMT
> I'm not a doctor, or a nurse for that matter.

You said that I failed to deliver. :(

So, that means that you are not medically trained.   So, we do have
something in common after all. Go figure?
.
You have my condolences. :)
Mr-Natural-Health - 01 Jan 2005 18:47 GMT
> The extent to which patients disclose their use of alternative
> therapies to their physicians is extremely low, thanks to sh.t-heads
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> talk.politics.medicine and sci.med.nursing and you come here calling people
> names?

This point iw worth repeating. :)

The scientific community has long ago decided that YOUR minority
viewpoint is irresponsibly endangering the safety of the public at
large.

I shall repeat it again for the benefit of the mentally challenged.

YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the safety of the
public at large.

For proof of the above accertion YOU can try reading the full text of:
Park CM. Diversity, the individual, and proof of efficacy:
complementary and alternative medicine in medical education. Am J
Public Health. 2002;92(10):1568 -1572.

I have already read it. :)
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
tcarter2@elp.rr.com - 02 Jan 2005 18:10 GMT
Hi,
The strongest reason patients don't reveal thier use of natural
medicine to their doctors is      DOCTORS DON'T ASK.      Doctors are
in much better position than patients to be aware of what they need to
know and they seldom ask about the use of vitamin, mineral, or other
supplemental use even tho over half of their patients make use of them.
Another contributing reason is that patients feel such disclosure will
alter their doctor's feelings towards them for the worse. While
patients bear the brunt of responsibility for this secondary reason,
the antagonistic attitude of doctors towards supplemental use is also
causitive in this respect as well.
Blame,  is a pecular noun. While devoid of mass or energy, it
nevertheless carries sigficant weight, and when tossed about always
lands on the other side of a fence.

Thomas
Mr-Natural-Health - 02 Jan 2005 21:20 GMT
> Another contributing reason is that patients feel such disclosure will
> alter their doctor's feelings towards them for the worse. ...
> the antagonistic attitude of doctors towards supplemental use is also
> causitive in this respect as well.

Exactly, ... YOU science bigots are irresponsibly endangering the
safety of the public at large.

You guys try to blame it on everybody, but yourself.

You have my condolences.
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
gerrymorrow@doctors.org.uk - 30 Dec 2004 18:06 GMT
> Complementary and alternative medicine is mainstream. Scientists who
> like to refer to themselves as quackbusters hold a minority viewpoint.
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> john gohde
> http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/
 
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