Medical Forum / General / General / January 2005
Would patients like to be able to email their doctors?
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Josh - 10 Dec 2004 20:15 GMT I'm a med student and I would like to throw a question out to any who is intersted. Would you like to be able to email your physician to get answers about scheduling, common problems, or other types of questions? And if so, would you be more willing to pay a flat yearly fee (for unlimited emails) or a per-email fee.
Thanks,
Josh
also, feel free to check out my blog at http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com/
Carey Gregory - 11 Dec 2004 01:38 GMT >I'm a med student and I would like to throw a question out to any who >is intersted. Would you like to be able to email your physician to get >answers about scheduling, common problems, or other types of questions? >And if so, would you be more willing to pay a flat yearly fee (for >unlimited emails) or a per-email fee. No. The answer to most medical questions would be "I'll have to see you, so make an appointment" and the answer to mundane questions I can already get for free by calling.
Yes, I would like to be able to communicate with my doc and his staff by email, but I don't see why I should pay for it. After all, they're not going to give any answer by email they couldn't give by phone, and doing it by email would actually benefit them more than me (since they can answer at their convenience, not when I happen to call). Why should I pay for that?
And then there's the huge problem of confidentiality. Forging identities by email is trivially easy, so unless the doc had a secure system of some sort, discussing personal medical issues would be out of the question.
Matt Beckwith M.D. - 17 Dec 2004 13:37 GMT Yeah, why should you pay for anything you could get for free? How about: because the doctor deserves to be paid for his time?
The reason doctors tell you to come in to be seen is that they don't get paid for telephone advice. (Another reason is that telephone medicine is inferior to in-person medicine, but many problems could in fact be handled by phone or email.) You can't run a practice if you're losing money.
What we need is to be able to charge for telephone/email medicine. Then patients wouldn't be inconvenienced by having to take off from their busy schedules to see the physician in person when it's not really necessary.
Matt Beckwith, M.D. Hagerstown, Md
Ed Mathes - 17 Dec 2004 13:45 GMT I agree with Dr. Beckwith. Primary Care, anyway, is not very well paid.
People forget medicine is not just a service but also a business that survives on revenue (money).
It is common for someone to call us and say "Hey, I got my sinus infection again. Please call in something for me (read: antibiotic) because I can't/don't want to come in".
Is this good medicine?
Not to say an office visit is always necessary.....but a lot of times it is.
It is one thing to call someone and tell them their labs are normal.
It's another to discuss on the phone or email labs, xrays, throw an echocardiogram/stress test or an MRI on top of that....
> Yeah, why should you pay for anything you could get for free? How > about: because the doctor deserves to be paid for his time? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Matt Beckwith, M.D. > Hagerstown, Md Josh - 17 Dec 2004 17:35 GMT THANKS!
I couldn't agree more with you Dr. Beckwith - doctors do deserve to be paid for their time whether thats emails, phone calls, or normal office visits!
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the 'inconvenience of having to take off from busy schedules'. We need to adapt to the desires of the pts/customers and if they are want to have [appropriate] problems handled via the phone, emails and/or web cams AND they are willing to pay for it, then we should provide that service. Don't you think that would increase the usage of preventative medicine if we decrease obstacles to medical advice?
And even though a lot of people are sceptical, there is a fair number of medical situations that can be handled w/o the doctor 'laying hands' on a pt. A lot of people are arguing against this primarily from the angle of technology and safety but i feel the technology is there, especially for primary care. And if its not, the only way to reach that point is by demanding it.
Josh
Josh - 17 Dec 2004 17:44 GMT Ed,
You are also right that FP is not well paid, but i think that will change in the future. Its not that FP's aren't in demand (studies show their demand is rising) but just that their income isn't as high as it could be. I believe that with some business savoy techniques, FPs could lower their fees to $20/15min AND make more than the current average income. I've outlined this at my blog which is http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com, this would include cash only, EMRs, reduced staff, emails, etc. . . In my opinion, Family could be the next derm in another decade :). Docs don't fight for Derm b/c they love the skin, but b/c the hours and pay are the best. Change that and they'll flock to family.
You were also right that not every case can be handled via phone or email, but by utilizing emails when appropriate, it will free up time in the office for those more complex cases which is a win for everyone. josh
Howard McCollister - 11 Dec 2004 03:21 GMT > I'm a med student and I would like to throw a question out to any who > is intersted. Would you like to be able to email your physician to get > answers about scheduling, common problems, or other types of questions? > And if so, would you be more willing to pay a flat yearly fee (for > unlimited emails) or a per-email fee. I encourage patients and their families to email me if they have medical questions. My email address is on the back of my business card, but none of them ever take me up on it. I'll bet I don't get but 2-3 email per year from patients. I have absolutely NO interest whatsoever, for any fee, in getting email from my patients about scheduling, billing, or any other non-medical question. They can call my office for that kind of stuff - a telephone call is far more efficient.
HMc
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 04:47 GMT Thank you very much Mr. Gregory and Mr. McCollister for replying.
Carey, you make a good point, why pay for the simple stuff when its free on a phone. Well, possibly convience b/c most dr's office are so inefficient its hard to get to a real person/nurse/dr. And then there are the security concerns. Your suggestion about a secure system/network is actually how it would be set up. If i can emai the irs, my bank, or my credit cards and get personal info sent back to me, then I think we can work out the security kinks.
Howard, the benefit in emails isn't really in the simple stuff like billing and scheduling. In fact, there are a large number of medical problems that can be sovled via emails. We had a doctor from portland oregon come and speak to our school about how he set his email system in conjunction w/ his malpractice carrier. They loved it so much they lowered his premiums b/c they felt it was better, safer care w/ great record keeping. He was vague on the price, but suggested he charged near $100/yr for an individual and $200/yr for a family and was making in the ballpark of 200k /yr from this alone. His malpractice carrier especially like how well it service pts w/ anxiety b/c they were able to communicate w/ their drs w/o the stress of coming to the office. Also, adults taking care of the elderly parents were able to have an open line of communication w/ their FP. Another physician in minnesota charges 1500/yr/person with it capped @ 300 pts = 450k. He then is able to only work the mornings and responds to emails during the afternoon.
Also, by having simpler questions / cases taken care of via email, there is more time per pt that is in the office w/ more serious problems. But, if these docs don't feel they can appropriately treat the case via email, they ask the pt to come in. Its the best of both worlds.
Josh http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
Howard McCollister - 11 Dec 2004 05:44 GMT > Thank you very much Mr. Gregory and Mr. McCollister for replying. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > the case via email, they ask the pt to come in. Its the best of both > worlds. Uh huh. Fascinating. I am always interested to hear a medical student's opinions on how I can solve medical problems. Perhaps you don't see the joke...I doubt that you've ever solved a medical problem in your life, yet.
What you will ultimately learn, grasshopper, is that medical practices are hugely variable. Those variations depend on the specialty, the location, the patient population, state regulations, federal regulations, costs, a thousand other things. There is a very wide variety of practice paradigms emerging, all based on some form of electronic communication. Some are less sophisticated than what you propose, some are far more elegant. Medical practice is in the process of sorting it all out now. The crude examples you provide above may work for some physicians, not for most. The rest of us are waiting for something better. Don't worry, that killer app is right around the corner.
Keep it all in mind when you start your own practice, or are finally in a position to influence the practice you join. Being exposed to this kind of stuff is an important part of your education. Just don't make the mistake of locking yourself into small thinking, as your enthusiastic lecturing on these particular examples tends to suggest you have.
HMc
Matt Beckwith - 02 Jan 2005 19:30 GMT > Uh huh. Fascinating. I am always interested to hear a medical student's > opinions on how I can solve medical problems. Perhaps you don't see the > joke...I doubt that you've ever solved a medical problem in your life, yet. What an a.shole. I feel for his patients.
Howard McCollister - 02 Jan 2005 21:13 GMT >> Uh huh. Fascinating. I am always interested to hear a medical > student's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What an a.shole. I feel for his patients. Matt, despite your stupid insult, I'd leave you out of my killfile if I had EVER seen you post anything here other than argumentative, useless drivel. Sadly, for you AND your patients, that's just not the case.
HMc
Howard McCollister - 02 Jan 2005 21:14 GMT >> Uh huh. Fascinating. I am always interested to hear a medical > student's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What an a.shole. I feel for his patients. Matt, despite your stupid insult, I'd leave you out of my killfile if I had EVER seen you post anything other than argumentative, useless drivel. Sadly for you and YOUR patients, that's just not the case.
HMc
Howard McCollister - 02 Jan 2005 21:42 GMT >> What an a.shole. I feel for his patients. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > HMc Carey Gregory - 11 Dec 2004 06:32 GMT >Carey, you make a good point, why pay for the simple stuff when its >free on a phone. Well, possibly convience b/c most dr's office are so [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >irs, my bank, or my credit cards and get personal info sent back to me, >then I think we can work out the security kinks. You cannot email the IRS, your bank, or credit card companies regarding confidential information. Email is not a secure medium, and even if you don't realize that, they do.
>Howard, the benefit in emails isn't really in the simple stuff like >billing and scheduling. In fact, there are a large number of medical [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >near $100/yr for an individual and $200/yr for a family and was making >in the ballpark of 200k /yr from this alone. I'm very skeptical.
>His malpractice carrier >especially like how well it service pts w/ anxiety b/c they were able [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >able to only work the mornings and responds to emails during the >afternoon. I'm moving beyond skepticism now and proclaiming this utter bullshit. Either you have your facts wrong or someone told you a huge fairy tale.
>Josh >http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com I appreciate your creative thinking on this subject, but I'd say you need to listen to Howard and get a little practical experience before proposing ultimate solutions.
Kurt Ullman - 11 Dec 2004 10:28 GMT >Howard, the benefit in emails isn't really in the simple stuff like >billing and scheduling. In fact, there are a large number of medical [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >able to only work the mornings and responds to emails during the >afternoon. You forgot the Prime Directive. Anecdote is not data. You have a couple interesting ways of addressing this, but they are still n=1 "studies" and may work only for this (or a very limited number of) practices.
-- "Terrible things, incomprehensible things", he shouted, "things that would drive a man wild!" He stared wildly at them. "Or in my case," he said, "half-mad. I'm a journalist." "You mean," said Arthur quietly, "that you are used to confronting the truth?" "No", said the man with a puzzled frown, "I mean that I made an excuse and left early." -Doug Adams *Life, The Universe and Everything*
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 14:36 GMT Sorry guys, but i'm right :) and there's plenty of data to prove it. Its just that you guys are stuck in the 'box' or as I like to call it 'the medical bubble'. If doctors were such great thinkers, they would've solved the problems surrounding the healthcare industry. I don't mean to be rude, but everyone thought John Ford was crazy for making/using the assembly line.
Sorry Carey, but i just emailed my credit card company and they emailed me back. Email CAN be secure. Plus haven't you heard of e-file w/ the IRS? Now maybe regular email from aol to yahoo won't be secure but a secure website can be made.
Kurt, if your only arguement is that my n=1 (actually n=2) then that is a weak arguement. Logically, you are not arguing that I have a bad idea, just that not enough dr's are doing it yet.
This is the same opposition I recieved 4 years ago when i was a junior in college and i was telling every doctor i know about why they should use EMRs. Now, the AAFP wants all family residencies to be using EMR's by 2006. When do you think they AAFP will be pushing emails? :)
Howard McCollister - 11 Dec 2004 16:39 GMT > This is the same opposition I recieved 4 years ago when i was a junior > in college and i was telling every doctor i know about why they should > use EMRs. Now, the AAFP wants all family residencies to be using EMR's > by 2006. When do you think they AAFP will be pushing emails? :) Ah, the idealism of the clueless student. You have no idea of the obstacles involved in implementing your utopian medical practice. Wait until you find out what purchasing, setting up, staff training, and maintaining an EMR costs, and you have to figure out how you're going to pay for that.
Having said that, you need to broaden your horizons substantially. EMRs are already being implemented all across the nation, and what you perceive as the pinnacle of practice paradigms, email, is already a subset of the typical EMR.
HMc
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 17:38 GMT You call idealism, i call it seeing the forest for the trees. This is happening and just b/c its coming from a med-student you discount it. But just to show you i'm not a bright-eyed bushy-tailed student here goes:
Cost of EMR - GE's Logician total package is $500/mo/physician. I will have one staff member who will serve as a receiptionist and nurse and @ $20/hr (plus taxes etc.). Computer equiment to utilize EMR = ~10,000 -- one monitor in front office, one in patient room x 2, plus one tablet pc, plus commerical printer.
Break down of daily schedule: 4 pts per hour @ $20-25 per patient (I'll be cash only) @ 15 minutes per pt. I will check in every pt including vitals b/c pts as consumers really want 'doctor time'. 4 pts/hr * 50 hr/wk * 50wk/yr = 200k. This does not include added revenue from running tests. Instead of that being a source for overhead, i will scan the bar-code on equipment used during the OV (not including cotton balls, tongue depressors etc. . .) This will be similar to a 'parts and labor' of a mechanic which will save me having to absorb these costs as overhead. In addition, it may be a source of revenue.
These figures do not include professional costs, rent, utilities etc. nor do they include possibble revenue from emails, lab tests, group visits. So yes, i admitt, there is room for those numbers to move.
To prove my point further, i'll refer you onto this website from the AAFP that lists this doctors reveunue and expenses. He's different though: no staff, charges $65/30min, sees 12 pts a day and makes 160K+. Not bad. And they told him he was crazy. :) http://www.aafp.org/fpm/20020300/25goin.html
any thoughts
Howard McCollister - 11 Dec 2004 19:47 GMT > You call idealism, i call it seeing the forest for the trees. This is > happening and just b/c its coming from a med-student you discount it. Yes, I agree that it's happening. There have been huge changes in the way medicine is practiced in just the 25 years since I was a medical student, and those changes will continue to happen. For the most part, that's a good thing.
And yes, I do discount your take on it. Nothing personal, but your information is from anecdotes relayed to you, from web sites, and a strictly theoretical concept of how a medical practice might work. You have virtually no clue about the real world of medicine. My practice is steadily implementing an enterprise medical record too (including an email and patient access module), as are virtually all other medical practices that I know of here in Minnesota. I'm very familiar with the problems.
Don't misunderstand - I applaud your determination to find a better way to do things and to not want to accept the status quo. I teach medical students and residents, and the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed are my favorite kind. But surely you must grasp the concept of the response engendered when a medical student presumes to lecture people experienced in setting up, running, and maintaining a medical practice (including EMR), especially when it's something that's obvious, and already happening anyway. You are as locked into your own concepts as you accuse such physicians of being.
Idealism is a very good thing in medicine. Too many medical students and residents have already been saddled with the cynicism imposed on them by a hugely cumbersome medical-industrial complex. But you need to leave some room in your practice plans for modification when reality supervenes, as it ultimately will.
HMc
cicero - 11 Dec 2004 17:45 GMT John Ford made Staegecoach. (with John Wayne) HENRY Ford used the assembly line (which had been initiated at the Springfield Arsenal in Mass. in the Civil War era to make rifles--and so took a half a century to be utilized in a mass market environment. Health informatics will be much the same. Slow ramp up, with bugs to be worked out. But the benefits to all parties are too compellng-and some day telemediicne--including remote diagnostics, prescription AND treatment will be ralities. And the CRUCIAL element is NOT the content (there's lots of good medicine outh there--even good med students--) --grasshopper, beatle, and scarab--but AUTHENTICATION of the parties using thenetworks--What physician would answer an email with clinical information without assurance of the identity of the patient ?(only one interested in breaking thelaw and his/her oath) Or prescribe. What patient would take the advice without assurance it came from the physician and not the cleaning crew in the office. See the thread on eHealth. cicero
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 17:58 GMT Josh - 16 Dec 2004 03:15 GMT Hi cicero,
I'm sorry but you're not arguing whether or not this is a good idea so much as whether the technology is ready? I believe that the tech is there but if its not (as you seem to imply) then they only way it will improve is by doctors pushing for it.
I'm sorry, but when was the last time that janitors had access to pts charts? You give one example and i'll concede the argument.
Again, I'm pushing this from the point of meeting the needs/desires of the customer. Target stores will start having Nurse Practioners in their stores charging $44 (http://www.minuteclinic.com/MinuteClinic_in_Baltimore_8-5-04.doc ). Why? Because patients want convience and ease. I'd appreciate your thoughts on the benefits of emails from the pts point of view.
In addition, if pts are able to email their FPs and possibly avoid expensive ER visits, doesn't that benefit the system.
cicero - 16 Dec 2004 11:51 GMT Not to try to oversimplify, but, while you are correct--that boththe DEMAND--and the rationality of meeting it ARE here-there is a 'legacy' problem. The problem for implementation on which most health informatics professsionals seem to agree (and which the HHS NHII/NHIN proceeding seeks to resolve) is the need to have all the different systems (at least 4000 clinical "networks in the US today) that would allow you to REALLY "email" your doctor not only TALK to each other, but AUTHENTICATE their USERS and DEVICES to each other. This means authenticate at the technology/device/platform/network level (clinic data base A "knows" that blood gas monitor from lab B is legitimate, licensed and calibrated), and at the "credentialing" AND at the party/identity levels (patient knows--or has given permisison, e.g.--for current encounter provider (say, vacation ER) to extract last encounter data from stored record (say, hometown hospital's PMR) and retrieve image of xray, eliminating need for ER to repeat.(you produce authenticating credential to ER.) Even tho' they've never communicated before, in an NHIN era, ER and hometown hospital use same authentication standard, which recognizes AND authenticates YOU to them, AND THEM TO EACH OTHER, and retrieves data exchange permissions previously agreed to by everyone when they become part of the network).
In your basic "email your doc" scenario, your identity as a patient is known to the doc--not just at the personal familiarity level, but at the clinically significant identity level. The doc's identity when he or she replies to your email is known to you. (So you can trust the answer.). You can send an image of your skin rash (or your vitals). The DOC can order LABS; the doc can even reply by PRESCRIBING for you in reply to your email, and copy the PHARMACY, which can (since you are known and authenticated to both DOC and PHARMACY) bill your PAYOR online. So, the implications are obviously more profound than just lowering the cost of OV encounter or raising the number of potential encounters--it completely overhauls the system. Throws out dozens of decades-or-centuries old assumptions. It says the technology (to borrow from the Twilight Zone) can "Serve Man."
Howard McCollister - 16 Dec 2004 15:11 GMT > Not to try to oversimplify, but, while you are correct--that boththe > DEMAND--and the rationality of meeting it ARE here-there is a 'legacy' [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > decades-or-centuries old assumptions. It says the technology (to > borrow from the Twilight Zone) can "Serve Man." You guys have no clue as to the obstacles of what you're proposing. The costs are huge, and provide very little return on investment, especially in the short run. The training of personnel to a whole new paradigm is another huge obstacle. Interoperability and compatibility issues are unbelievably daunting. Security issues, convenience issues, patient acceptance issues. It will happen, no question, but it's going to be years. Maybe decades.
HMc
Carey Gregory - 17 Dec 2004 00:45 GMT >It will happen, no question, but it's going to be years. Maybe decades. Yep, and I would lean toward decades.
Carey Gregory - 17 Dec 2004 00:24 GMT >Not to try to oversimplify, but, while you are correct--that boththe >DEMAND--and the rationality of meeting it ARE here-there is a 'legacy' [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >them, AND THEM TO EACH OTHER, and retrieves data exchange permissions >previously agreed to by everyone when they become part of the network). You summarized the major requirements fairly well. Now, can you name any industry that has comparable security and quality assurance requirements, and which has successfully implemented a system of comparable size, complexity, and diversity? Can you name one that's even close?
cicero - 18 Dec 2004 03:40 GMT No, I can not name ONE that has the comparable challenges--or potential payoff in improved quality of life or reduction in unnecessary costs than health care.
That is why the USG is trying to jumpstart--for the 5th time in 2 decades I am aware of--an initiative to pursue integration of clinical networks and a virtual patient record. Before you go flaming people on a post, why don't you read and understand the background--the Markle reports, the HHS ONCHIT US health vision paper, or the Request for Information now open in the NHII/NHIN proceeding. Then, contribute your view somewhere it will matte--you will not persuade me to STOP working towards this--so why don't you see if can add some value instead of heckling the concept.
Carey Gregory - 18 Dec 2004 07:08 GMT >No, I can not name ONE that has the comparable challenges--or potential >payoff in improved quality of life or reduction in unnecessary costs >than health care. I can see the benefits, but I'm not so sure I'd go that far.
>Before you go flaming people on a post, I didn't flame you. Quite the contrary.
>why don't you read and >understand the background--the Markle reports, the HHS ONCHIT US health >vision paper, or the Request for Information now open in the NHII/NHIN >proceeding. Then, contribute your view somewhere it will matte--you >will not persuade me to STOP working towards this--so why don't you see >if can add some value instead of heckling the concept. How about you accept a few tough questions and don't take them so personally?
My career has been in the computer industry for 20+ years. I've read all the reports you can name and seen equally zealous predictions decades ago, virtually all of which panned out to be far less beneficial and far more difficult than predicted. More importantly, I've seen what it actually takes to implement systems of this size and complexity. What you call heckling I call stark reality. The funding isn't there, the standards aren't there, and the proof it's worth doing isn't there. And those are the easy problems. The tough problems are how to develop data interchange standards, convince manufacturers and providers to adopt them, find customers willing to pay for it, and convince the gov't to let it all happen.
But if you're dead set on a crusade, by all means continue. Who knows, 20 years from now you might have your name attached to a wondrous thing.
Howard McCollister - 18 Dec 2004 13:21 GMT >>No, I can not name ONE that has the comparable challenges--or potential >>payoff in improved quality of life or reduction in unnecessary costs [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > But if you're dead set on a crusade, by all means continue. Who knows, 20 > years from now you might have your name attached to a wondrous thing. A unified, nationwide EMR is a worthy goal, and while it isn't exactly the panacea that cicero envisions, it does have a lot of potential. It's worth noting that it has a lot of potential for abuse, too. People are making a lot of noise about personal privacy these days - wait until their medical records go online).
The medical "industry" is behind the entire EMR concept, at the very least accepts it as inevitable. BUT, the other obstacles are huge, and the only way such a thing will be implemented within the next 10 years is if it's mandated by the federal government and that mandate is accompanied by billions of dollars in federal funding. We as a nation can't even settle on High Definition Television standards and get them implemented in any kind of reasonable time frame, so let's keep our expections within reason and try to keep our tempers in check when someone like Carey starts pointing out the obvious.
HMc
Josh - 18 Dec 2004 13:47 GMT Yes, there are a lot of people who are concerned over the privacy issues a national database would present. The small-gov conservative in me would prefere a private system, similar in design to the credit bureau, with the option to opt out.
The small-gov conservative in my also has a problem with people thinking there needs to be billions to support a private industry's actions. Anyone who has worked with a good EMR will tell you that the ROI for most institutions is anywhere from 12-24 months and that includes purchasing and implementation cost. Unless the hospitals are going to pay the gov back [promptly], gov-aid isn't necessary. josh http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
Howard McCollister - 18 Dec 2004 14:38 GMT > Yes, there are a lot of people who are concerned over the privacy > issues a national database would present. The small-gov conservative [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > going to pay the gov back [promptly], gov-aid isn't necessary. > josh I've been working with a good EMR (Meditech) as we implement it into our own medical system and I can tell you that a 12-24 month ROI is wildly optimistic. These things are usually phased in over a few years because of a) cost b) training c) complexity.
As to federal monetary support, the problem with the medical business is cash flow. When we're talking about an average AR aging of somewhere between 90 and 120 days, using capital equipment dollars toward something with a long ROI such as an EMR is not particlularly attractive for cash-strapped hospitals and clinics (as most are) compared to something like a CT scanner. The EMR may eventually break even as an investment as it allows these organizations to downsize their personnel pools, but I think you're substantially overestimating the ability of an EMR system to generate revenue. It just doesn't. So, unless there's a big cash infusion from somewhere as a stimulus, penetration of EMR into the mainstream of the medical business is going to be slow.
HMc
Ed Mathes - 18 Dec 2004 18:31 GMT I think if you look at most of the EMRs that are marketed to private practice, they claim significant cost savings. These are obtained in a couple ways:
Save on dictation costs. which is fine if you dictate. My office doesn't because of the expense. So we hand write or personally type everything. I have experimented with voice recognition and spent more time correcting that dictation than I would have writing long hand.
So, no savings there.
Another area is billing. The EMR generates the charge, it is automatically entered into the system and (theoretically) electronically submitted to the payer.
We have two people (one full, the other part-time) who do billing and estimate eliminating one of those positions..probably the part time. So $11.00/hr x 24 hours x 50 weeks = $13,200.00/year "saved".
Maybe some time savings on the back end.
Convenience....yes and no. Having all my partner's patients info in the computer and accessible, along with med lists, history, etc will save us some time....especially when on call, doing refills, sending form letters, etc.
Most of the "cost savings", if there are any, will be intangible. The actual hard dollars saved won't offset system costs.
Our estimated first year cost for implementing an EMR system for 3 doctors and 1 PA plus 11 office staff was $130,000.00....software, hardware upgrades, transition from paper to electronic records (does not include having all records scanned into the system).
And then there are difficulties with compatibility with other systems, importing lab, x-ray and other data in a usable format, etc etc etc.
Ed
> > Yes, there are a lot of people who are concerned over the privacy > > issues a national database would present. The small-gov conservative [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > HMc Matt Beckwith M.D. - 18 Dec 2004 18:16 GMT A nationwide EMR is a great idea. The security issue is just a problem which can be solved, no big deal in my opinion.
Probably first we'll have web sites which allow patients to have their medical records on file. You go see the doctor and say, "If you want my medical history, just go to such-and-such web site and it's all there. My password is xxxxx."
Howard McCollister - 18 Dec 2004 19:04 GMT >A nationwide EMR is a great idea. The security issue is just a problem > which can be solved, no big deal in my opinion. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > my medical history, just go to such-and-such web site and it's all > there. My password is xxxxx." That capability pretty much already exists, and is in use. In our own system, the patient has the capability of accessing their record via a HIPPA-compliant secure server, can leave or send email messages, and email notification of new lab or other test results is possible. And if they see another physician, even one outside of our system, that doctor could log onto the system and get the records if the patient gives them access. It certainly doesn't make us any money, but it saves us a lot of time when printed records don't have to be copied and mailed. We don't have these patient portals fully implemented yet, and patient acceptance in this area is pretty poor, but it does add some efficiency within our system and has the potential to save us money in the future by allowing us to downsize our medical records and secretarial staff.
HMc
David Wright - 18 Dec 2004 19:19 GMT >A nationwide EMR is a great idea. The security issue is just a problem >which can be solved, no big deal in my opinion. Your opinion being based on what?
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Matt Beckwith M.D. - 18 Dec 2004 23:35 GMT Your bad attitude being based on what?
David Wright - 19 Dec 2004 06:29 GMT >Your bad attitude being based on what? I'm going to assume that was directed at me, even though you didn't have the courtesy to include the text to which you were responding.
If you're going to assert that computer security of medical records is not a difficult thing to accomplish, I want to know your basis for saying so.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Matt Beckwith M.D. - 19 Dec 2004 17:17 GMT >I'm going to assume that was directed at me, even though you didn't >have the courtesy to include the text to which you were responding. What's the matter, did your mommy not breast feed you or something?
David Wright - 19 Dec 2004 17:48 GMT >>I'm going to assume that was directed at me, even though you didn't >>have the courtesy to include the text to which you were responding. >What's the matter, did your mommy not breast feed you or something? Thanks -- I figured you were just a blowhard with no actual experience with computer security. I appreciate your confirmation. You're a sport.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Happy Dog - 20 Dec 2004 14:51 GMT "David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message
>>>I'm going to assume that was directed at me, even though you didn't >>>have the courtesy to include the text to which you were responding. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with computer security. I appreciate your confirmation. You're a > sport. The topic interests me because my medical records are scattered over a half dozen government offices.. Be nice if you could get an intelligent response.
moo
David Rind - 21 Dec 2004 00:14 GMT > "David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > moo There's actually quite a lot of published literature about this topic. It's fairly complex more because of issues of balancing access and confidentiality than dealing with issues of security.
That is, you can almost certainly make an electronic record system at least as secure as a paper system (and people already find it easier to breach the security of paper records by getting the information from people who have appropriate access to the records than by actually stealing the records; the same would be true for a secure electronic system).
What is typically more difficult is figuring out how to give access when it is needed for care. If, for instance, you allow the patient to decide who does and does not have access (for instance by making the patient the keeper of a private key), what do you do in an emergency when the patient is incapable of participating in the decision about whether to release records.
As mentioned, there are lots of published articles about this. Search Medline for articles with Kohane IS and Szolovits P as authors for some citations.
 Signature David Rind drind@caregroup.harvard.edu
Happy Dog - 21 Dec 2004 13:27 GMT "David Rind" <drind@caregroup.harvard.edu> wrote in
> What is typically more difficult is figuring out how to give access when > it is needed for care. If, for instance, you allow the patient to decide [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Medline for articles with Kohane IS and Szolovits P as authors for some > citations. Merci bien.
le m
cicero - 29 Dec 2004 02:59 GMT It's not really a crusade. More like a "project". With many comitted players--more than 4000 extant local, regional and sectoral health networks. And the same sort of technologies mentioned in thde discussions of changing legal practive in this thread--PKI and other authentication tools that are recognized under eSign and the state implementations of the UETA--to accompish interoperability of the data exhanges and transparent access to the required elements of the "virtual" patient record.
The Markle reports really lay out the best of the collective wisdom of health informatics, health engineering, clinical practice, health "industry" and others--each of which discipline house some "true believers" willing to compromise their own unilateral "best interest" in favor of a colelctive "common good." What a revolutionary concept--think of it--GE, Mass General, HCA, St. Paul, Pharma and dozens of others all agreeing to try to achieve the same thing. Maybe it will blow up before being fully realized--just like HCCC (health care cost contianment) did after the insurers figured out how to co-opt "preferred provider" in the '80s.
Carey Gregory - 29 Dec 2004 03:30 GMT >It's not really a crusade. More like a "project". And a big one. Big as in huge, as in years, maybe even decades of work by many.
>With many comitted >players--more than 4000 extant local, regional and sectoral health >networks. A tiny fraction of the players needed to play, and yet still a huge number. That's my point. Once you get beyond a group of people who can meet in one room, the project gets immensely difficult.
>The Markle reports really lay out the best of the collective wisdom of >health informatics, health engineering, clinical practice, health >"industry" and others--each of which discipline house some "true >believers" willing to compromise their own unilateral "best interest" >in favor of a colelctive "common good." First off, I would be extremely skeptical of anyone willing to sacrifice their own best interest for the common good. That makes them either insane, financially suicidal, or liars. Guess which one I think is most likely.
>What a revolutionary >concept--think of it--GE, Mass General, HCA, St. Paul, Pharma and >dozens of others all agreeing to try to achieve the same thing. Well, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but this isn't revolutionary in the least. You're heading down a well trodden path and it would behoove you to look at the experience of those who have gone before you.
(Can you spell "paperless office?")
>Maybe >it will blow up before being fully realized--just like HCCC (health >care cost contianment) did after the insurers figured out how to co-opt >"preferred provider" in the '80s. More likely it will simply get bogged down in a swamp of competing interests and differing standards with no compelling financial incentive to make the differing interests negotiate and compromise. Compromise will be necessary to make this happen. Now ask yourself why any of the players should compromise. If you can't think of a compelling answer with demonstrable *financial* benefits to the players, then the project is little more than a good idea that's destined for the graveyard of good ideas (which is currently in danger of overflowing).
Howard McCollister - 29 Dec 2004 13:39 GMT > More likely it will simply get bogged down in a swamp of competing > interests [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > good idea that's destined for the graveyard of good ideas (which is > currently in danger of overflowing). This is a very well-stated summary of the reasons why it will be likely decades. The logistical and especially financial reason are hugely daunting. It's fine to address the big players, but about 70% of the players at the tip of the spear - providers and smaller provider/systems/networks - are outside of those systems. We are just seeing the emergence of a generation of doctors who are comfortable with the EMR concept, but the majority are still uncomfortable with electronic technology as it applies to the point-of-care. Add to that the huge financial burdens that are imposed by such a switchover in an arena where reimbursement is decreasing and costs are already increasing and the majority of providers simply can't afford such a large investment.
These things will eventually happen, but it will be decades before it penetrates to the point anywhere close to that envisioned by Cisero.
HMc
cicero - 02 Jan 2005 16:35 GMT I guess as a "gray back"I have the luxury of having been involved in these efforts for almost 3 decades already and see the time horizons in scales like those tolerated by Hubert Humphrey and Eleanor Roosevelt as they crudaded for Meicare over 25 years. The challenges are daunting, and the Administration's motivation for the present HHS/ONCHIT NHII must been seen through the lens of their own friends in the industry--trust me--I'm on a two hour telecon with them every week and not so naive to believe this is happening because there is an epiphany among thefor profit hospitals, pharrm mfgs, device mfgs or payors. But none of those--or any of the other excuses {this is hard, this has been tried and failed in other areas of the economy, this has been tried and failed in medicine] are sufficient to so DO NOT TRY. Yes, the embedded interests have competing agendas--and it is not encourging to hear the professional community even on threads like this voice such skepticism. But I believe the current exericise is very important for one overriding reason: it is now NOT based on doubts about technical achievability (i.e.--the tools to create an interoperable EMR and exchange patient clinical patient and reimbursement data are now more or less agreed to); the debate--decades long tho' the resolution may be--is about balaincing the competing interests of the institutions which must participate in a nationwide health network to make it functionally available. Watch the HHS sites after January 18 to see where consensus begins to form.
Carey Gregory - 03 Jan 2005 18:30 GMT >But none of those--or any of the other excuses {this is hard, >this has been tried and failed in other areas of the economy, this has >been tried and failed in medicine] are sufficient to so DO NOT TRY. Nobody said don't try. I'm absolutely sure it will eventually become a reality, but "eventually" is the key word here.
>Yes, the embedded interests have competing agendas--and it is >not encourging to hear the professional community even on threads like >this voice such skepticism. Skepticism is a healthy thing. All we've been trying to say to you is to adopt a little.
Carey Gregory - 11 Dec 2004 18:13 GMT >Sorry Carey, but i just emailed my credit card company and they emailed >me back. Sorry, Josh, but I can send an email to Santa Claus and he replies too. Now, try doing something that involves confidential information, like I said. In the extremely unlikely event they'll do that by email, I recommend you cancel that card instantly.
>Email CAN be secure. Yes, to an extent, but only with significant effort. Do you e-sign your emails using a secure encryption method? Does your credit card company do the same thing? Are your email servers secure? Is your email encrypted for transmission?
If you answered no to any of these questions, your email isn't secure enough for financial transactions or confidential data. How many patients do you suppose are going to do all this to email their doctor?
>Plus haven't you heard of e-file w/ the IRS? That's not email. And if you'd ever used it, you would know you can't actually file an online return yourself. You have to do it through a service provider. Much better examples of secure online systems would be online banking, investing, eBay, etc.
>Now maybe regular email from aol to yahoo won't be secure but a >secure website can be made. Of course they can be made secure. Secure web-based systems are common, and a doctor could establish one pretty easily, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax than email.
>This is the same opposition I recieved 4 years ago when i was a junior >in college and i was telling every doctor i know about why they should >use EMRs. Now, the AAFP wants all family residencies to be using EMR's >by 2006. When do you think they AAFP will be pushing emails? :) lol.... Ohmygosh, you *are* a med student, aren't you?
Last Timer - 11 Dec 2004 12:27 GMT The US trained doctors don't look at the evidence of menses. They will do anything to avoid peering into microscopes in search of answers like breeding vs. discharge in a mensturating woman. One of their strategies is to interrogate the patient, who is say anaemic, and harrass the female patient. If one can decide if in a particular menstural cycle a female bled or discharged firmly by email, more power to them. The fat a.s MD's and their snobbish residency trainers deserve to have umpteen female children with amennorrhea.
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 15:54 GMT i'm sorry that you are so upset with doctors Last Timer. The purpose of emails is not to avoid the pt, but to cater to them if they want it. Some women may feel more comfortable talking about their problems via email, but if they prefer to be in the office thant I would prefer that. The beauty of docs using emails (for those pts that want to) is that it opens up their office schedule so they CAN spend more time w/ pts like you describe.
But you are right about the harrassing part. Any doctor that doesn't treat their pts with the up-most respect is a poor doctor, and me there are plenty of them.
I wrote in my personal statement about my neighbor, an old german widow who i had to help after she broke her wrist in the winter. She taught me a lot about what it was like to be a patient. Most med-students talk about 'shadowing doctors' well i talked about shadowing a pt. She had horrible, mean docs like you mention so i'm very sensitive to that. She always reminds me to 'not lose my heart' when i'm a doc.
I hope someday you can see my practice, and the way in which i'll cater the needs of each individual pt.
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 15:59 GMT i'm sorry that you are so upset with doctors Last Timer. The purpose of emails is not to avoid the pt, but to cater to them if they want it. Some women may feel more comfortable talking about their problems via email, but if they prefer to be in the office thant I would prefer that. The beauty of docs using emails (for those pts that want to) is that it opens up their office schedule so they CAN spend more time w/ pts like you describe.
But you are right about the harrassing part. Any doctor that doesn't treat their pts with the up-most respect is a poor doctor, and believe me there are plenty of them.
I wrote in my personal statement about my neighbor, an old german widow who i had to help after she broke her wrist in the winter. She taught me a lot about what it was like to be a patient. Most med-students talk about 'shadowing doctors' well i talked about shadowing a pt. She had a horrible, mean docs like you mention so i'm very sensitive to that. She always reminds me to 'not lose my heart' when i'm a doc.
I hope someday you can see my practice, and the way in which i'll cater the needs of each individual pt.
Last Timer - 11 Dec 2004 23:10 GMT I regret my typos. However, Merriam-Webster won't. Here are some dictionary words: -menorrhea contrast with metanorrhea -mesopause contrast with menopause -mensturation constrast with mesuration/mesoration
Don't think there will be a Guinness Book entry for the most mensturating woman as long as the cynical and sadistic US trained MD's have their way.
Carey Gregory - 12 Dec 2004 00:14 GMT >I regret my typos. However, Merriam-Webster won't. Here are some >dictionary words: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >mensturating woman as long as the cynical and sadistic US trained MD's >have their way. I see you're every bit as incoherent and unable to stay on topic here as you are on other newsgroups.
Howard McCollister - 12 Dec 2004 01:13 GMT >I regret my typos. However, Merriam-Webster won't. Here are some > dictionary words: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > mensturating woman as long as the cynical and sadistic US trained MD's > have their way. Trust me, your typos did not affect the lucidity of your post in any way. We all got the point - that you're a goofball.
You appear to have some kind of obsession with menstruation. You should consider mentioning it to your psychiatrist at your next appointment.
HMc
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Dec 2004 22:54 GMT > I'm a med student and I would like to throw a question out to any who > is intersted. Would you like to be able to email your physician to get [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > also, feel free to check out my blog at > http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com/ I would like to throw my thoughts in. I'm an actual patient.
I know many lawyers. None will e-mail or fax sensitive documents. I think I'll go with their judgement.
Zee
Josh - 22 Dec 2004 15:17 GMT Hi Zee,
Most lawyers are as bad at business as doctors are. So all of these lawyers you know must not be that good b/c the legal world is going paperless. They are moving towards filing court documents online and more, check out http://securities.stanford.edu/news-archive/2003/20031002_Headline07_Nann.htm.
Now it may not be email in the simplest terms, but lets not argue semantics. I just want to know if pts would like to be able to communicate w/ their doctor electronically (however that system must be designed to be secure). Its already happening, but i wanted some other peoples' opinions. check out http://www.telemedtoday.com/
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 22 Dec 2004 23:25 GMT Looks like the first thing we'd have to do is build in protection from persons contemptuous of the patient's rights. Zee
> Hi Zee, > > Most lawyers are as bad at business as doctors are. So all of these > lawyers you know must not be that good b/c the legal world is going > paperless. They are moving towards filing court documents online and > more, check out http://securities.stanford.edu/news-archive/2003/20031002_Headline07_Nann.htm.
> Now it may not be email in the simplest terms, but lets not argue > semantics. I just want to know if pts would like to be able to > communicate w/ their doctor electronically (however that system must be > designed to be secure). Its already happening, but i wanted some other > peoples' opinions. check out http://www.telemedtoday.com/ Josh - 23 Dec 2004 04:02 GMT
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