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Medical Forum / General / General / January 2005

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Would patients like to be able to email their doctors?

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Josh - 10 Dec 2004 20:15 GMT
I'm a med student and I would like to throw a question out to any who
is intersted. Would you like to be able to email your physician to get
answers about scheduling, common problems, or other types of questions?
And if so, would you be more willing to pay a flat yearly fee (for
unlimited emails) or a per-email fee.

Thanks,

Josh

also, feel free to check out my blog at
http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com/
Carey Gregory - 11 Dec 2004 01:38 GMT
>I'm a med student and I would like to throw a question out to any who
>is intersted. Would you like to be able to email your physician to get
>answers about scheduling, common problems, or other types of questions?
>And if so, would you be more willing to pay a flat yearly fee (for
>unlimited emails) or a per-email fee.

No.  The answer to most medical questions would be "I'll have to see you, so
make an appointment" and the answer to mundane questions I can already get
for free by calling.  

Yes, I would like to be able to communicate with my doc and his staff by
email, but I don't see why I should pay for it.  After all, they're not
going to give any answer by email they couldn't give by phone, and doing it
by email would actually benefit them more than me (since they can answer at
their convenience, not when I happen to call).  Why should I pay for that?  

And then there's the huge problem of confidentiality.  Forging identities by
email is trivially easy, so unless the doc had a secure system of some sort,
discussing personal medical issues would be out of the question.
Matt Beckwith M.D. - 17 Dec 2004 13:37 GMT
Yeah, why should you pay for anything you could get for free?  How
about:  because the doctor deserves to be paid for his time?

The reason doctors tell you to come in to be seen is that they don't
get paid for telephone advice.  (Another reason is that telephone
medicine is inferior to in-person medicine, but many problems could in
fact be handled by phone or email.)  You can't run a practice if you're
losing money.

What we need is to be able to charge for telephone/email medicine.
Then patients wouldn't be inconvenienced by having to take off from
their busy schedules to see the physician in person when it's not
really necessary.

Matt Beckwith, M.D.
Hagerstown, Md
Ed Mathes - 17 Dec 2004 13:45 GMT
I agree with Dr. Beckwith. Primary Care, anyway, is not very well paid.

People forget medicine is not just a service but also a business that
survives on revenue (money).

It is common for someone to call us and say "Hey, I got my sinus infection
again.  Please call in something for me (read: antibiotic) because I
can't/don't want to come in".

Is this good medicine?

Not to say an office visit is always necessary.....but a lot of times it is.

It is one thing to call someone and tell them their labs are normal.

It's another to discuss on the phone or email labs, xrays, throw an
echocardiogram/stress test or an MRI on top of that....

> Yeah, why should you pay for anything you could get for free?  How
> about:  because the doctor deserves to be paid for his time?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Matt Beckwith, M.D.
> Hagerstown, Md
Josh - 17 Dec 2004 17:35 GMT
THANKS!

I couldn't agree more with you Dr. Beckwith - doctors do deserve to be
paid for their time whether thats emails, phone calls, or normal office
visits!

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the 'inconvenience of
having to take off from busy schedules'.  We need to adapt to the
desires of the pts/customers and if they are want to have [appropriate]
problems handled via the phone, emails and/or web cams AND they are
willing to pay for it, then we should provide that service.  Don't you
think that would increase the usage of preventative medicine if we
decrease obstacles to medical advice?

And even though a lot of people are sceptical, there is a fair number
of medical situations that can be handled w/o the doctor 'laying hands'
on a pt.  A lot of people are arguing against this primarily from the
angle of technology and safety but i feel the technology is there,
especially for primary care.  And if its not, the only way to reach
that point is by demanding it.

Josh
Josh - 17 Dec 2004 17:44 GMT
Ed,

You are also right that FP is not well paid, but i think that will
change in the future.  Its not that FP's aren't in demand (studies show
their demand is rising) but just that their income isn't as high as it
could be.  I believe that with some business savoy techniques, FPs
could lower their fees to $20/15min AND make more than the current
average income.  I've outlined this at my blog which is
http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com, this would include cash only,
EMRs, reduced staff, emails, etc. . .  In my opinion, Family could be
the next derm in another decade :).  Docs don't fight for Derm b/c they
love the skin, but b/c the hours and pay are the best.  Change that and
they'll flock to family.

You were also right that not every case can be handled via phone or
email, but by utilizing emails when appropriate, it will free up time
in the office for those more complex cases which is a win for everyone.
josh
Howard McCollister - 11 Dec 2004 03:21 GMT
> I'm a med student and I would like to throw a question out to any who
> is intersted. Would you like to be able to email your physician to get
> answers about scheduling, common problems, or other types of questions?
> And if so, would you be more willing to pay a flat yearly fee (for
> unlimited emails) or a per-email fee.

I encourage patients and their families to email me if they have medical
questions. My email address is on the back of my business card, but none of
them ever take me up on it. I'll bet I don't get but 2-3 email per year from
patients. I have absolutely NO interest whatsoever, for any fee, in getting
email from my patients about scheduling, billing, or any other non-medical
question. They can call my office for that kind of stuff - a telephone call
is far more efficient.

HMc
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 04:47 GMT
Thank you very much Mr. Gregory and Mr. McCollister for replying.

Carey, you make a good point, why pay for the simple stuff when its
free on a phone.  Well, possibly convience b/c most dr's office are so
inefficient its hard to get to a real person/nurse/dr.  And then there
are the security concerns. Your suggestion about a secure
system/network is actually how it would be set up.  If i can emai the
irs, my bank, or my credit cards and get personal info sent back to me,
then I think we can work out the security kinks.

Howard, the benefit in emails isn't really in the simple stuff like
billing and scheduling.  In fact, there are a large number of medical
problems that can be sovled via emails.  We had a doctor from portland
oregon come and speak to our school about how he set his email system
in conjunction w/ his malpractice carrier.  They loved it so much they
lowered his premiums b/c they felt it was better, safer care w/ great
record keeping.  He was vague on the price, but suggested he charged
near $100/yr for an individual and $200/yr for a family and was making
in the ballpark of 200k /yr from this alone.  His malpractice carrier
especially like how well it service pts w/ anxiety b/c they were able
to communicate w/ their drs w/o the stress of coming to the office.
Also, adults taking care of the elderly parents were able to have an
open line of communication w/ their FP.  Another physician in minnesota
charges 1500/yr/person with it capped @ 300 pts = 450k.  He then is
able to only work the mornings and responds to emails during the
afternoon.

Also, by having simpler questions / cases taken care of via email,
there is more time per pt that is in the office w/ more serious
problems.  But, if these docs don't feel they can appropriately treat
the case via email, they ask the pt to come in.  Its the best of both
worlds.

Josh
http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
Howard McCollister - 11 Dec 2004 05:44 GMT
> Thank you very much Mr. Gregory and Mr. McCollister for replying.
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> the case via email, they ask the pt to come in.  Its the best of both
> worlds.

Uh huh. Fascinating. I am always interested to hear a medical student's
opinions on how I can solve medical problems. Perhaps you don't see the
joke...I doubt that you've ever solved a medical problem in your life, yet.

What you will ultimately learn, grasshopper, is that medical practices are
hugely variable. Those variations depend on the specialty, the location, the
patient population, state regulations, federal regulations, costs, a
thousand other things. There is a very wide variety of practice paradigms
emerging, all based on some form of electronic communication. Some are less
sophisticated than what you propose, some are far more elegant. Medical
practice is in the process of sorting it all out now. The crude examples you
provide above may work for some physicians, not for most. The rest of us are
waiting for something better. Don't worry, that killer app is right around
the corner.

Keep it all in mind when you start your own practice, or are finally in a
position to influence the practice you join. Being exposed to this kind of
stuff is an important part of your education. Just don't make the mistake of
locking yourself into small thinking, as your enthusiastic lecturing on
these particular  examples tends to suggest you have.

HMc
Matt Beckwith - 02 Jan 2005 19:30 GMT
> Uh huh. Fascinating. I am always interested to hear a medical student's
> opinions on how I can solve medical problems. Perhaps you don't see the
> joke...I doubt that you've ever solved a medical problem in your life, yet.

What an a.shole.  I feel for his patients.
Howard McCollister - 02 Jan 2005 21:13 GMT
>> Uh huh. Fascinating. I am always interested to hear a medical
> student's
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> What an a.shole.  I feel for his patients.

Matt, despite your stupid insult, I'd leave you out of my killfile if I had
EVER seen you post anything here other than argumentative, useless drivel.
Sadly, for you AND your patients, that's just not the case.

HMc
Howard McCollister - 02 Jan 2005 21:14 GMT
>> Uh huh. Fascinating. I am always interested to hear a medical
> student's
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> What an a.shole.  I feel for his patients.

Matt, despite your stupid insult, I'd leave you out of my killfile if I had
EVER seen you post anything other than argumentative, useless drivel. Sadly
for you and YOUR patients, that's just not the case.

HMc
Howard McCollister - 02 Jan 2005 21:42 GMT
>> What an a.shole.  I feel for his patients.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> HMc
Carey Gregory - 11 Dec 2004 06:32 GMT
>Carey, you make a good point, why pay for the simple stuff when its
>free on a phone.  Well, possibly convience b/c most dr's office are so
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>irs, my bank, or my credit cards and get personal info sent back to me,
>then I think we can work out the security kinks.

You cannot email the IRS, your bank, or credit card companies regarding
confidential information.  Email is not a secure medium, and even if you
don't realize that, they do.

>Howard, the benefit in emails isn't really in the simple stuff like
>billing and scheduling.  In fact, there are a large number of medical
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>near $100/yr for an individual and $200/yr for a family and was making
>in the ballpark of 200k /yr from this alone.  

I'm very skeptical.

>His malpractice carrier
>especially like how well it service pts w/ anxiety b/c they were able
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>able to only work the mornings and responds to emails during the
>afternoon.

I'm moving beyond skepticism now and proclaiming this utter bullshit.
Either you have your facts wrong or someone told you a huge fairy tale.

>Josh
>http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com

I appreciate your creative thinking on this subject, but I'd say you need to
listen to Howard and get a little practical experience before proposing
ultimate solutions.
Kurt Ullman - 11 Dec 2004 10:28 GMT
>Howard, the benefit in emails isn't really in the simple stuff like
>billing and scheduling.  In fact, there are a large number of medical
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>able to only work the mornings and responds to emails during the
>afternoon.

      You forgot the Prime Directive. Anecdote is not data. You
have a couple interesting ways of addressing this, but they are
still n=1 "studies" and may work only for this (or a very limited
number of) practices.

--
"Terrible things, incomprehensible things", he shouted, "things that would drive a man wild!"
He stared wildly at them.
"Or in my case," he said, "half-mad. I'm a journalist."
"You mean," said Arthur quietly, "that you are used to confronting the truth?"
"No", said the man with a puzzled frown, "I mean that I made an excuse and left early."
    -Doug Adams *Life, The Universe and Everything*
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 14:36 GMT
Sorry guys, but i'm right :) and there's plenty of data to prove it.
Its just that you guys are stuck in the 'box' or as I like to call it
'the medical bubble'.  If doctors were such great thinkers, they
would've solved the problems surrounding the healthcare industry.  I
don't mean to be rude, but everyone thought John Ford was crazy for
making/using the assembly line.

Sorry Carey, but i just emailed my credit card company and they emailed
me back.  Email CAN be secure.  Plus haven't you heard of e-file w/ the
IRS?  Now maybe regular email from aol to yahoo won't be secure but a
secure website can be made.

Kurt, if your only arguement is that my n=1 (actually n=2) then that is
a weak arguement.  Logically, you are not arguing that I have a bad
idea, just that not enough dr's are doing it yet.

This is the same opposition I recieved 4 years ago when i was a junior
in college and i was telling every doctor i know about why they should
use EMRs.  Now, the AAFP wants all family residencies to be using EMR's
by 2006.  When do you think they AAFP will be pushing emails? :)
Howard McCollister - 11 Dec 2004 16:39 GMT
> This is the same opposition I recieved 4 years ago when i was a junior
> in college and i was telling every doctor i know about why they should
> use EMRs.  Now, the AAFP wants all family residencies to be using EMR's
> by 2006.  When do you think they AAFP will be pushing emails? :)

Ah, the idealism of the clueless student. You have no idea of the obstacles
involved in implementing your utopian medical practice. Wait until you find
out what purchasing, setting up, staff training, and maintaining an EMR
costs, and you have to figure out how you're going to pay for that.

Having said that, you need to broaden your horizons substantially. EMRs are
already being implemented all across the nation, and what you perceive as
the pinnacle of practice paradigms, email, is already a subset of the
typical EMR.

HMc
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 17:38 GMT
You call idealism, i call it seeing the forest for the trees.  This is
happening and just b/c its coming from a med-student you discount it.
But just to show you i'm not a bright-eyed bushy-tailed student here
goes:

Cost of EMR - GE's Logician total package is $500/mo/physician.  I will
have one staff member who will serve as a receiptionist and nurse and @
$20/hr (plus taxes etc.).  Computer equiment to utilize EMR = ~10,000
-- one monitor in front office, one in patient room x 2, plus one
tablet pc, plus commerical printer.

Break down of daily schedule: 4 pts per hour @ $20-25 per patient (I'll
be cash only) @ 15 minutes per pt.  I will check in every pt including
vitals b/c pts as consumers really want 'doctor time'.  4 pts/hr * 50
hr/wk * 50wk/yr = 200k.  This does not include added revenue from
running tests.  Instead of that being a source for overhead, i will
scan the bar-code on equipment used during the OV (not including cotton
balls, tongue depressors etc. . .)  This will be similar to a 'parts
and labor' of a mechanic which will save me having to absorb these
costs as overhead.  In addition, it may be a source of revenue.

These figures do not include professional costs, rent, utilities etc.
nor do they include possibble revenue from emails, lab tests, group
visits.  So yes, i admitt, there is room for those numbers to move.

To prove my point further, i'll refer you onto this website from the
AAFP that lists this doctors reveunue and expenses.  He's different
though: no staff, charges $65/30min, sees 12 pts a day and makes 160K+.
Not bad.  And they told him he was crazy. :)
http://www.aafp.org/fpm/20020300/25goin.html

any thoughts
Howard McCollister - 11 Dec 2004 19:47 GMT
> You call idealism, i call it seeing the forest for the trees.  This is
> happening and just b/c its coming from a med-student you discount it.

Yes, I agree that it's happening. There have been huge changes in the way
medicine is practiced in just the 25 years since I was a medical student,
and those changes will continue to happen. For the most part, that's a good
thing.

And yes, I do discount your take on it. Nothing personal, but your
information is from anecdotes relayed to you, from web sites, and a strictly
theoretical concept of how a medical practice might work. You have virtually
no clue about the real world of medicine. My practice is steadily
implementing an enterprise medical record too (including an email and
patient access module), as are virtually all other medical practices that I
know of here in Minnesota. I'm very familiar with the problems.

Don't misunderstand - I applaud your determination to find a better way to
do things and to not want to accept the status quo. I teach medical students
and residents, and the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed are my favorite kind.
But surely you must grasp the concept of the response engendered when a
medical student presumes to lecture people experienced in setting up,
running, and maintaining a medical practice (including EMR), especially when
it's something that's obvious, and already happening anyway. You are as
locked into your own concepts as you accuse such physicians of being.

Idealism is a very good thing in medicine. Too many medical students and
residents have already been saddled with the cynicism imposed on them by a
hugely cumbersome medical-industrial complex. But you need to leave some
room in your practice plans for modification when reality supervenes, as it
ultimately will.

HMc
cicero - 11 Dec 2004 17:45 GMT
John Ford made Staegecoach. (with John Wayne)
HENRY Ford used the assembly line (which had been initiated at the
Springfield Arsenal in Mass. in  the Civil War era to make rifles--and
so took a half a century to be utilized in a mass market environment.
Health informatics will be much the same. Slow ramp up, with bugs to be
worked out.  But the benefits to all parties are too compellng-and some
day telemediicne--including remote diagnostics, prescription AND
treatment will be ralities. And the CRUCIAL element is NOT the content
(there's lots of good medicine outh there--even good med students--)
--grasshopper, beatle, and scarab--but AUTHENTICATION of the parties
using thenetworks--What physician would answer an email with clinical
information without assurance of the identity of the patient ?(only one
interested in breaking thelaw and his/her oath)  Or prescribe.  What
patient would take the advice without assurance it came from the
physician and not the cleaning crew in the office.  See the thread on
eHealth.
cicero
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 17:58 GMT
john - typo, meant henry
Josh - 16 Dec 2004 03:15 GMT
Hi cicero,

I'm sorry but you're not arguing whether or not this is a good idea so
much as whether the technology is ready? I believe that the tech is
there but if its not (as you seem to imply) then they only way it will
improve is by doctors pushing for it.

I'm sorry, but when was the last time that janitors had access to pts
charts? You give one example and i'll concede the argument.

Again, I'm pushing this from the point of meeting the needs/desires of
the customer.  Target stores will start having Nurse Practioners in
their stores charging $44
(http://www.minuteclinic.com/MinuteClinic_in_Baltimore_8-5-04.doc ).
Why? Because patients want convience and ease.  I'd appreciate your
thoughts on the benefits of emails from the pts point of view.

In addition, if pts are able to email their FPs and possibly avoid
expensive ER visits, doesn't that benefit the system.
cicero - 16 Dec 2004 11:51 GMT
Not to try to oversimplify, but, while you are correct--that boththe
DEMAND--and the rationality of meeting it ARE here-there is a 'legacy'
problem.  The problem for implementation on which most health
informatics professsionals seem to agree (and which the HHS NHII/NHIN
proceeding seeks to resolve) is the need to have all the different
systems (at least 4000 clinical "networks in the US today) that would
allow you to REALLY "email" your doctor not only TALK to each other,
but AUTHENTICATE their USERS and DEVICES to each other.  This means
authenticate at the technology/device/platform/network level (clinic
data base A "knows" that blood gas monitor from lab B is legitimate,
licensed and calibrated), and at the "credentialing"  AND at the
party/identity levels (patient knows--or has given permisison,
e.g.--for current encounter provider (say, vacation ER) to extract last
encounter data from stored record (say, hometown hospital's PMR) and
retrieve image of xray, eliminating need for ER to repeat.(you produce
authenticating credential to ER.)  Even tho' they've never communicated
before, in an NHIN era, ER and hometown hospital use same
authentication standard, which recognizes AND authenticates YOU to
them, AND THEM TO EACH OTHER, and retrieves data exchange permissions
previously agreed to by everyone when they become part of the network).

In your basic "email your doc" scenario, your identity as a patient is
known to the doc--not just at the personal familiarity level, but at
the clinically significant identity level. The doc's identity when he
or she replies to your email is known to you.  (So you can trust the
answer.).  You can send an image of your skin rash (or your vitals).
The DOC can order LABS; the doc can even reply by PRESCRIBING for you
in reply to your email, and copy the PHARMACY, which can (since you are
known and authenticated to both DOC and PHARMACY) bill your PAYOR
online. So, the implications are obviously more profound than just
lowering the cost of OV encounter or raising the number of potential
encounters--it completely overhauls the system.  Throws out dozens of
decades-or-centuries old assumptions.  It says the technology (to
borrow from the Twilight Zone) can "Serve Man."
Howard McCollister - 16 Dec 2004 15:11 GMT
> Not to try to oversimplify, but, while you are correct--that boththe
> DEMAND--and the rationality of meeting it ARE here-there is a 'legacy'
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> decades-or-centuries old assumptions.  It says the technology (to
> borrow from the Twilight Zone) can "Serve Man."

You guys have no clue as to the obstacles of what you're proposing. The
costs are huge, and provide very little return on investment, especially in
the short run. The training of personnel to a whole new paradigm is another
huge obstacle. Interoperability and compatibility issues are unbelievably
daunting. Security issues, convenience issues, patient acceptance issues.
It will happen, no question, but it's going to be years. Maybe decades.

HMc
Carey Gregory - 17 Dec 2004 00:45 GMT
>It will happen, no question, but it's going to be years. Maybe decades.

Yep, and I would lean toward decades.
Carey Gregory - 17 Dec 2004 00:24 GMT
>Not to try to oversimplify, but, while you are correct--that boththe
>DEMAND--and the rationality of meeting it ARE here-there is a 'legacy'
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>them, AND THEM TO EACH OTHER, and retrieves data exchange permissions
>previously agreed to by everyone when they become part of the network).

You summarized the major requirements fairly well.  Now, can you name any
industry that has comparable security and quality assurance requirements,
and which has successfully implemented a system of comparable size,
complexity, and diversity?    Can you name one that's even close?
cicero - 18 Dec 2004 03:40 GMT
No, I can not name ONE that has the comparable challenges--or potential
payoff in improved quality of life or reduction in unnecessary costs
than health care.

That is why the USG is trying to jumpstart--for the 5th time in 2
decades I am aware of--an initiative to pursue integration of clinical
networks and a virtual patient record.
Before you go flaming people on a post, why don't you read and
understand the background--the Markle reports, the HHS ONCHIT US health
vision paper, or the Request for Information now open in the NHII/NHIN
proceeding.  Then, contribute your view somewhere it will matte--you
will not persuade me to STOP working towards this--so why don't you see
if can add some value instead of  heckling the concept.
Carey Gregory - 18 Dec 2004 07:08 GMT
>No, I can not name ONE that has the comparable challenges--or potential
>payoff in improved quality of life or reduction in unnecessary costs
>than health care.

I can see the benefits, but I'm not so sure I'd go that far.  

>Before you go flaming people on a post,

I didn't flame you.  Quite the contrary.

>why don't you read and
>understand the background--the Markle reports, the HHS ONCHIT US health
>vision paper, or the Request for Information now open in the NHII/NHIN
>proceeding.  Then, contribute your view somewhere it will matte--you
>will not persuade me to STOP working towards this--so why don't you see
>if can add some value instead of  heckling the concept.

How about you accept a few tough questions and don't take them so
personally?  

My career has been in the computer industry for 20+ years.  I've read all
the reports you can name and seen equally zealous predictions decades ago,
virtually all of which panned out to be far less beneficial and far more
difficult  than predicted.  More importantly, I've seen what it actually
takes to implement systems of this size and complexity.  What you call
heckling I call stark reality.  The funding isn't there, the standards
aren't there, and the proof it's worth doing isn't there.  And those are the
easy problems.  The tough problems are how to develop data interchange
standards, convince manufacturers and providers to adopt them, find
customers willing to pay for it, and convince the gov't to let it all
happen.

But if you're dead set on a crusade, by all means continue.  Who knows, 20
years from now you might have your name attached to a wondrous thing.
Howard McCollister - 18 Dec 2004 13:21 GMT
>>No, I can not name ONE that has the comparable challenges--or potential
>>payoff in improved quality of life or reduction in unnecessary costs
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> But if you're dead set on a crusade, by all means continue.  Who knows, 20
> years from now you might have your name attached to a wondrous thing.

A unified, nationwide EMR is a worthy goal, and while it isn't exactly the
panacea that cicero envisions, it does have a lot of potential. It's worth
noting that it has a lot of potential for abuse, too. People are making a
lot of noise about personal privacy these days - wait until their medical
records go online).

The medical "industry" is behind the entire EMR concept, at the very least
accepts it as inevitable. BUT, the other obstacles are huge, and the only
way such a thing will be implemented within the next 10 years is if it's
mandated by the federal government and that mandate is accompanied by
billions of dollars in federal funding. We as a nation can't even settle on
High Definition Television standards and get them implemented in any kind of
reasonable time frame, so let's keep our expections within reason and try to
keep our tempers in check when someone like Carey starts pointing out the
obvious.

HMc
Josh - 18 Dec 2004 13:47 GMT
Yes, there are a lot of people who are concerned over the privacy
issues a national database would present.  The small-gov conservative
in me would prefere a private system, similar in design to the credit
bureau, with the option to opt out.

The small-gov conservative in my also has a problem with people
thinking there needs to be billions to support a private industry's
actions.  Anyone who has worked with a good EMR will tell you that the
ROI for most institutions is anywhere from 12-24 months and that
includes purchasing and implementation cost.  Unless the hospitals are
going to pay the gov back [promptly], gov-aid isn't necessary.
josh
http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
Howard McCollister - 18 Dec 2004 14:38 GMT
> Yes, there are a lot of people who are concerned over the privacy
> issues a national database would present.  The small-gov conservative
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> going to pay the gov back [promptly], gov-aid isn't necessary.
> josh

I've been working with a good EMR (Meditech) as we implement it into our own
medical system and I can tell you that a 12-24 month ROI is wildly
optimistic. These things are usually phased in over a few years because of
a) cost  b) training  c) complexity.

As to federal monetary support, the problem with the medical business is
cash flow. When we're talking about an average AR aging of somewhere between
90 and 120 days, using capital equipment dollars toward something with a
long ROI such as an EMR is not particlularly attractive for cash-strapped
hospitals and clinics (as most are) compared to something like a CT scanner.
The EMR may eventually break even as an investment as it allows these
organizations to downsize their personnel pools, but I think you're
substantially overestimating the ability of an EMR system to generate
revenue. It just doesn't. So, unless there's a big cash infusion from
somewhere as a stimulus, penetration of EMR into the mainstream of the
medical business is going to be slow.

HMc
Ed Mathes - 18 Dec 2004 18:31 GMT
I think if you look at most of the EMRs that are marketed to private
practice, they claim significant cost savings.  These are obtained in a
couple ways:

Save on dictation costs.  which is fine if you dictate.  My office doesn't
because of the expense.  So we hand write or personally type everything.  I
have experimented with voice recognition and spent more time correcting that
dictation than I would have writing long hand.

So, no savings there.

Another area is billing.  The EMR generates the charge, it is automatically
entered into the system and (theoretically) electronically submitted to the
payer.

We have two people (one full, the other part-time) who do billing and
estimate eliminating one of those positions..probably the part time.  So
$11.00/hr x 24 hours x 50 weeks =  $13,200.00/year "saved".

Maybe some time savings on the back end.

Convenience....yes and no.  Having all my partner's patients info in the
computer and accessible, along with med lists, history, etc will save us
some time....especially when on call, doing refills, sending form letters,
etc.

Most of the "cost savings", if there are any,  will be intangible.  The
actual hard dollars saved won't offset system costs.

Our estimated first year cost for implementing an EMR system for 3 doctors
and 1 PA plus 11 office staff was $130,000.00....software, hardware
upgrades, transition from paper to electronic records (does not include
having all records scanned into the system).

And then there are difficulties with compatibility with other systems,
importing lab, x-ray and other data in a usable format, etc etc etc.

Ed

> > Yes, there are a lot of people who are concerned over the privacy
> > issues a national database would present.  The small-gov conservative
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> HMc
Matt Beckwith M.D. - 18 Dec 2004 18:16 GMT
A nationwide EMR is a great idea.  The security issue is just a problem
which can be solved, no big deal in my opinion.

Probably first we'll have web sites which allow patients to have their
medical records on file.  You go see the doctor and say, "If you want
my medical history, just go to such-and-such web site and it's all
there.  My password is xxxxx."
Howard McCollister - 18 Dec 2004 19:04 GMT
>A nationwide EMR is a great idea.  The security issue is just a problem
> which can be solved, no big deal in my opinion.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> my medical history, just go to such-and-such web site and it's all
> there.  My password is xxxxx."

That capability pretty much already exists, and is in use. In our own
system, the patient has the capability of accessing their record via a
HIPPA-compliant secure server, can leave or send email messages, and email
notification of new lab or other test results is possible. And if they see
another physician, even one outside of our system, that doctor could log
onto the system and get the records if the patient gives them access. It
certainly doesn't make us any money, but it saves us a lot of time when
printed records don't have to be copied and mailed. We don't have these
patient portals fully implemented yet, and patient acceptance in this area
is pretty poor, but it does add some efficiency within our system and has
the potential to save us money in the future by allowing us to downsize our
medical records and secretarial staff.

HMc
David Wright - 18 Dec 2004 19:19 GMT
>A nationwide EMR is a great idea.  The security issue is just a problem
>which can be solved, no big deal in my opinion.

Your opinion being based on what?

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
          were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Matt Beckwith M.D. - 18 Dec 2004 23:35 GMT
Your bad attitude being based on what?
David Wright - 19 Dec 2004 06:29 GMT
>Your bad attitude being based on what?

I'm going to assume that was directed at me, even though you didn't
have the courtesy to include the text to which you were responding.

If you're going to assert that computer security of medical records is
not a difficult thing to accomplish, I want to know your basis for
saying so.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
          were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Matt Beckwith M.D. - 19 Dec 2004 17:17 GMT
>I'm going to assume that was directed at me, even though you didn't
>have the courtesy to include the text to which you were responding.
What's the matter, did your mommy not breast feed you or something?
David Wright - 19 Dec 2004 17:48 GMT
>>I'm going to assume that was directed at me, even though you didn't
>>have the courtesy to include the text to which you were responding.
>What's the matter, did your mommy not breast feed you or something?

Thanks -- I figured you were just a blowhard with no actual experience
with computer security.  I appreciate your confirmation.  You're a
sport.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
          were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Happy Dog - 20 Dec 2004 14:51 GMT
"David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message
>>>I'm going to assume that was directed at me, even though you didn't
>>>have the courtesy to include the text to which you were responding.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> with computer security.  I appreciate your confirmation.  You're a
> sport.

The topic interests me because my medical records are scattered over a half
dozen government offices.. Be nice if you could get an intelligent response.

moo
David Rind - 21 Dec 2004 00:14 GMT
> "David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> moo

There's actually quite a lot of published literature about this topic.
It's fairly complex more because of issues of balancing access and
confidentiality than dealing with issues of security.

That is, you can almost certainly make an electronic record system at
least as secure as a paper system (and people already find it easier to
breach the security of paper records by getting the information from
people who have appropriate access to the records than by actually
stealing the records; the same would be true for a secure electronic
system).

What is typically more difficult is figuring out how to give access when
it is needed for care. If, for instance, you allow the patient to decide
who does and does not have access (for instance by making the patient
the keeper of a private key), what do you do in an emergency when the
patient is incapable of participating in the decision about whether to
release records.

As mentioned, there are lots of published articles about this. Search
Medline for articles with Kohane IS and Szolovits P as authors for some
citations.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Happy Dog - 21 Dec 2004 13:27 GMT
"David Rind" <drind@caregroup.harvard.edu> wrote in
> What is typically more difficult is figuring out how to give access when
> it is needed for care. If, for instance, you allow the patient to decide
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Medline for articles with Kohane IS and Szolovits P as authors for some
> citations.

Merci bien.

le m
cicero - 29 Dec 2004 02:59 GMT
It's not really a crusade. More like a "project".  With many comitted
players--more than 4000 extant local, regional and sectoral health
networks.  And the same sort of technologies mentioned in thde
discussions of changing legal practive in this thread--PKI and other
authentication tools that are recognized under eSign and the state
implementations of the UETA--to accompish interoperability of the data
exhanges and transparent access to the required elements of the
"virtual" patient record.

The Markle reports really lay out the best of the collective wisdom of
health informatics, health engineering, clinical practice, health
"industry" and others--each of which discipline house some "true
believers" willing to compromise their own unilateral "best interest"
in favor of a colelctive "common good."  What  a revolutionary
concept--think of it--GE, Mass General, HCA, St. Paul, Pharma and
dozens of others all agreeing to try to achieve the same thing.  Maybe
it will blow up before being fully realized--just like HCCC (health
care cost contianment) did after the insurers figured out how to co-opt
"preferred provider" in the '80s.
Carey Gregory - 29 Dec 2004 03:30 GMT
>It's not really a crusade. More like a "project".  

And a big one.  Big as in huge, as in years, maybe even decades of work by
many.

>With many comitted
>players--more than 4000 extant local, regional and sectoral health
>networks.  

A tiny fraction of the players needed to play, and yet still a huge number.
That's my point.  Once you get beyond a group of people who can meet in one
room, the project gets immensely difficult.

>The Markle reports really lay out the best of the collective wisdom of
>health informatics, health engineering, clinical practice, health
>"industry" and others--each of which discipline house some "true
>believers" willing to compromise their own unilateral "best interest"
>in favor of a colelctive "common good."  

First off, I would be extremely skeptical of anyone willing to sacrifice
their own best interest for the common good.  That makes them either insane,
financially suicidal, or liars.  Guess which one I think is most likely.

>What  a revolutionary
>concept--think of it--GE, Mass General, HCA, St. Paul, Pharma and
>dozens of others all agreeing to try to achieve the same thing.  

Well, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but this isn't revolutionary in
the least.  You're heading down a well trodden path and it would behoove you
to look at the experience of those who have gone before you.

(Can you spell "paperless office?")

>Maybe
>it will blow up before being fully realized--just like HCCC (health
>care cost contianment) did after the insurers figured out how to co-opt
>"preferred provider" in the '80s.

More likely it will simply get bogged down in a swamp of competing interests
and differing standards with no compelling financial incentive to make the
differing interests negotiate and compromise.  Compromise will be necessary
to make this happen.   Now ask yourself why any of the players should
compromise.  If you can't think of a compelling answer with demonstrable
*financial* benefits to the players, then the project is little more than a
good idea that's destined for the graveyard of good ideas (which is
currently in danger of overflowing).
Howard McCollister - 29 Dec 2004 13:39 GMT
> More likely it will simply get bogged down in a swamp of competing
> interests
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> good idea that's destined for the graveyard of good ideas (which is
> currently in danger of overflowing).

This is a very well-stated summary of the reasons why it will be likely
decades. The logistical and especially financial reason are hugely daunting.
It's fine to address the big players, but about 70% of the players at the
tip of the spear - providers and smaller provider/systems/networks - are
outside of those systems. We are just seeing the emergence of a generation
of doctors who are comfortable with the EMR concept, but the majority are
still uncomfortable with electronic technology as it applies to the
point-of-care. Add to that the huge financial burdens that are imposed by
such a switchover in an arena where reimbursement is decreasing and costs
are already increasing and the majority of providers simply can't afford
such a large investment.

These things will eventually happen, but it will be decades before it
penetrates to the point anywhere close to that envisioned by Cisero.

HMc
cicero - 02 Jan 2005 16:35 GMT
I guess as a "gray back"I have the luxury of having been involved
in these efforts for almost 3 decades already and see the time horizons
in scales like those tolerated by Hubert Humphrey and Eleanor Roosevelt
as they crudaded for Meicare over 25 years.  The challenges are
daunting, and the Administration's motivation for the present
HHS/ONCHIT NHII must been seen through the lens of their own friends in
the industry--trust me--I'm on a two hour telecon with them every week
and not so naive to believe this is happening because there is an
epiphany among thefor profit hospitals, pharrm mfgs, device mfgs or
payors.  But none of those--or any of the other excuses {this is hard,
this has been tried and failed in other areas of the economy, this has
been tried and failed in medicine] are sufficient to so DO NOT TRY.
Yes, the embedded interests have competing agendas--and it is
not encourging to hear the professional community even on  threads like
this voice such skepticism.   But I believe the current exericise is
very important for one overriding reason: it is now NOT based on doubts
about technical achievability (i.e.--the tools to create an
interoperable EMR and exchange patient clinical patient and
reimbursement data are now more or less agreed to); the debate--decades
long tho' the resolution may be--is about balaincing the competing
interests of the institutions which must participate in a nationwide
health network to make it functionally available.
Watch the HHS sites after January 18 to see where consensus begins to
form.
Carey Gregory - 03 Jan 2005 18:30 GMT
>But none of those--or any of the other excuses {this is hard,
>this has been tried and failed in other areas of the economy, this has
>been tried and failed in medicine] are sufficient to so DO NOT TRY.

Nobody said don't try.  I'm absolutely sure it will eventually become a
reality, but "eventually" is the key word here.

>Yes, the embedded interests have competing agendas--and it is
>not encourging to hear the professional community even on  threads like
>this voice such skepticism.  

Skepticism is a healthy thing.  All we've been trying to say to you is to
adopt a little.
Carey Gregory - 11 Dec 2004 18:13 GMT
>Sorry Carey, but i just emailed my credit card company and they emailed
>me back.  

Sorry, Josh, but I can send an email to Santa Claus and he replies too.
Now, try doing something that involves confidential information, like I
said.  In the extremely unlikely event they'll do that by email, I recommend
you cancel that card instantly.

>Email CAN be secure.  

Yes, to an extent, but only with significant effort.  Do you e-sign your
emails using a secure encryption method?  Does your credit card company do
the same thing?  Are your email servers secure?  Is your email encrypted for
transmission?

If you answered no to any of these questions, your email isn't secure enough
for financial transactions or confidential data.  How many patients do you
suppose are going to do all this to email their doctor?

>Plus haven't you heard of e-file w/ the IRS?

That's not email.  And if you'd ever used it, you would know you can't
actually file an online return yourself.   You have to do it through a
service provider.  Much better examples of secure online systems would be
online banking, investing, eBay, etc.

>Now maybe regular email from aol to yahoo won't be secure but a
>secure website can be made.

Of course they can be made secure.  Secure web-based systems are common, and
a doctor could establish one pretty easily, but that's a whole 'nother ball
of wax than email.  

>This is the same opposition I recieved 4 years ago when i was a junior
>in college and i was telling every doctor i know about why they should
>use EMRs.  Now, the AAFP wants all family residencies to be using EMR's
>by 2006.  When do you think they AAFP will be pushing emails? :)

lol....  Ohmygosh, you *are* a med student, aren't you?
Last Timer - 11 Dec 2004 12:27 GMT
The US trained doctors don't look at the evidence of menses. They will
do anything to avoid peering into microscopes in search of answers like
breeding vs. discharge in a mensturating woman. One of their strategies
is to interrogate the patient, who is say anaemic, and harrass the
female patient. If one can decide if in a particular menstural cycle a
female bled or discharged firmly by email, more power to them. The fat
a.s MD's and their snobbish residency trainers deserve to have umpteen
female children with amennorrhea.
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 15:54 GMT
i'm sorry that you are so upset with doctors Last Timer.  The purpose
of emails is not to avoid the pt, but to cater to them if they want it.
Some women may feel more comfortable talking about their problems via
email, but if they prefer to be in the office thant I would prefer
that.  The beauty of docs using emails (for those pts that want to) is
that it opens up their office schedule so they CAN spend more time w/
pts like you describe.

But you are right about the harrassing part.  Any doctor that doesn't
treat their pts with the up-most respect is a poor doctor, and me there
are plenty of them.

I wrote in my personal statement about my neighbor, an old german widow
who i had to help after she broke her wrist in the winter.  She taught
me a lot about what it was like to be a patient.  Most med-students
talk about 'shadowing doctors' well i talked about shadowing a pt.  She
had horrible, mean docs like you mention so i'm very sensitive to that.
She always reminds me to 'not lose my heart' when i'm a doc.

I hope someday you can see my practice, and the way in which i'll cater
the needs of each individual pt.
Josh - 11 Dec 2004 15:59 GMT
i'm sorry that you are so upset with doctors Last Timer. The purpose
of emails is not to avoid the pt, but to cater to them if they want it.
Some women may feel more comfortable talking about their problems via
email, but if they prefer to be in the office thant I would prefer
that. The beauty of docs using emails (for those pts that want to) is
that it opens up their office schedule so they CAN spend more time w/
pts like you describe.

But you are right about the harrassing part. Any doctor that doesn't
treat their pts with the up-most respect is a poor doctor, and believe
me there
are plenty of them.

I wrote in my personal statement about my neighbor, an old german widow
who i had to help after she broke her wrist in the winter. She taught
me a lot about what it was like to be a patient. Most med-students
talk about 'shadowing doctors' well i talked about shadowing a pt. She
had a horrible, mean docs like you mention so i'm very sensitive to
that.
She always reminds me to 'not lose my heart' when i'm a doc.

I hope someday you can see my practice, and the way in which i'll cater
the needs of each individual pt.
Last Timer - 11 Dec 2004 23:10 GMT
I regret my typos. However, Merriam-Webster won't. Here are some
dictionary words:
-menorrhea contrast with metanorrhea
-mesopause contrast with menopause
-mensturation constrast with mesuration/mesoration

Don't think there will be a Guinness Book entry for the most
mensturating woman as long as the cynical and sadistic US trained MD's
have their way.
Carey Gregory - 12 Dec 2004 00:14 GMT
>I regret my typos. However, Merriam-Webster won't. Here are some
>dictionary words:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>mensturating woman as long as the cynical and sadistic US trained MD's
>have their way.

I see you're every bit as incoherent and unable to stay on topic here as you
are on other newsgroups.
Howard McCollister - 12 Dec 2004 01:13 GMT
>I regret my typos. However, Merriam-Webster won't. Here are some
> dictionary words:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> mensturating woman as long as the cynical and sadistic US trained MD's
> have their way.

Trust me, your typos did not affect the lucidity of your post in any way. We
all got the point - that you're a goofball.

You appear to have some kind of obsession with menstruation. You should
consider mentioning it to your psychiatrist at your next appointment.

HMc
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 21 Dec 2004 22:54 GMT
> I'm a med student and I would like to throw a question out to any who
> is intersted. Would you like to be able to email your physician to get
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> also, feel free to check out my blog at
> http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com/

I would like to throw my thoughts in. I'm an actual patient.

I know many lawyers. None will e-mail or fax sensitive documents.
I think I'll go with their judgement.

Zee
Josh - 22 Dec 2004 15:17 GMT
Hi Zee,

Most lawyers are as bad at business as doctors are.  So all of these
lawyers you know must not be that good b/c the legal world is going
paperless.  They are moving towards filing court documents online and
more, check out
http://securities.stanford.edu/news-archive/2003/20031002_Headline07_Nann.htm.

Now it may not be email in the simplest terms, but lets not argue
semantics.  I just want to know if pts would like to be able to
communicate w/ their doctor electronically (however that system must be
designed to be secure).  Its already happening, but i wanted some other
peoples' opinions.  check out http://www.telemedtoday.com/
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 22 Dec 2004 23:25 GMT
Looks like the first thing we'd have to do is build in protection from
persons contemptuous of the patient's rights.  Zee

> Hi Zee,
>
> Most lawyers are as bad at business as doctors are.  So all of these
> lawyers you know must not be that good b/c the legal world is going
> paperless.  They are moving towards filing court documents online and
> more, check out

http://securities.stanford.edu/news-archive/2003/20031002_Headline07_Nann.htm.

> Now it may not be email in the simplest terms, but lets not argue
> semantics.  I just want to know if pts would like to be able to
> communicate w/ their doctor electronically (however that system must be
> designed to be secure).  Its already happening, but i wanted some other
> peoples' opinions.  check out http://www.telemedtoday.com/
Josh - 23 Dec 2004 04:02 GMT
 
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