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Medical Forum / General / General / January 2005water softeners and heart disease
Water softening system newly installed in my building. What is the concern with softened water and heart disease? Is it only for the potassium salt used to soften the water, or something more complex. Zee Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium ions..the hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in sodium...a problem with anyone with high blood pressure..or who retains water when exposed to excess salt.. potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water softener.. actually you could install a reverse osmosis unit under your kitchen sink...to remove the extra salt...or simply NOT drink the softened water if salt is an issue with you...rather than the expense of buying bottled water...buy a Brita filtering pitcher...they are reasonable and only need a new filter every three months.. your laundry..and your hair..on the other hand ..will LOVE the soft water... many folks drink softened water without problem....... good luck.. hawki > X-No-Archive: Yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Zee we have soft water on the hot water tank only...... too easy to plumb it that way and we have an RO water system for those that don't want ANY of the minerals....... kate > Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium ions..the > hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > > > Zee > Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium ions..the > hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > > > Zee We were told "...have installed a potassium-based water softening system... . {There will be a} slight increase in potassium in the water... . Those on medications consult your doctor and use bottled water only." Of course I realize the latter is disclaimer, but also remember reading a caution; somewhere, sometime. I did find a post dated 1994 discussing water softeners and plaque but nothing newer. Still lookiing and asking... http://tinyurl.com/4hzgn "hawki63" <hawki63@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message > potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water > softener.. Huh? Then how does it work? moo > "hawki63" <hawki63@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message > > > potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water > > softener.. > > Huh? Then how does it work? The calcium and magnesium cations are replaced with sodium cations And the calcium and magnesium are lost as precipates. Or the water is soften through the use of ion exchange resins which remove both cation and anions. The potassium cation (K+) forms soluble salts hence K+ isn't removed by the old water softening process. This is first year chemistry. Didn't the Dog take chemistry at university or even junior college? Or is this a rhetorical question? Designed to waste the time of his opponent. Except someone else (me) knows the answer off the top of his head.:-Z Happy Dog posts heat and smoke as do most residents of MHA. Hey, what is Happy Dog doing out of MHA? .......................................William Noyes > moo >> "hawki63" <hawki63@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >The calcium and magnesium cations are replaced with sodium cations Right. >And the calcium and magnesium are lost as precipates. Wrong. Well, not quite wrong. There is a method for extremely hard water in which calcium is *added* at elevated pH to force the formation of insoluble calcium carbonate. Boiling helps too. But this method isn't used in home central systems, and it doesn't add sodium ions. >Or the water is soften through the use of ion exchange resins which >remove both cation and anions. Sort of right. Anions exchange resins are almost never used in household water softening systems, nor are resins that replace all cations with H+ used. Commonly it's a cation exchange resin that replaces Ca and Mg with Na. Periodically you flush the system with salt water to remove the Ca and Mg by replacing them with Na. No precipitates - that would ruin your resins. The Ca and Mg go down the drain during the purge. You can buy small water stills, or reverse osmosis units or specialized ion exchangers to produce very pure water for special purposes at home, e.g. watering orchids or breeding aquarium fish native to rain forests, but these systems are far too expensive and require too much maintenance for a home central system, where the purpose is mainly to keep soaps from precipitating as calcium salts. These almost invariably use a cation exchange resin that replaces Ca and Mg with Na, and is regenerated with salt. As has been pointed out, central systems are usually put only on the hot water side of the system, where the benefit is the greatest, both in providing softened wash water, and reducing precipitation of insoluble carbonates in the pipes. Labs mostly use a combination of RO and resin deionization to produce very pure water these days. It comes out the tap labelled "distilled water". >The potassium cation (K+) forms soluble salts hence K+ isn't removed >by the old water softening process. True but irrelevant. IIRC, that old method was mostly used to soften extremely hard water a little for industrial processes and steam engine boilers, mainly to prevent clogging of pipes with insoluble carbonates. >This is first year chemistry. Didn't the Dog take chemistry >at university or even junior college? Water softening technology isn't a real important issue in academic chemistry programs. They concentrate on theory, not minor bits of technology. >Or is this a rhetorical question? Designed to waste the time >of his opponent. Except someone else (me) knows the >answer off the top of his head.:-Z Happy Dog posts heat >and smoke as do most residents of MHA. Hey, what is >Happy Dog doing out of MHA? It may be an honest question from someone who wants to know. A mostly wrong answer from the top of the head of someone who only thinks he knows is not preferable, IMNSHO. Perhaps you shouldn't have wasted your time. Thanks. I did get this rather wrong. It has been 30 years since I'd given this any thought and even when I did I must have got the topic tangled. Further comments below > >> "hawki63" <hawki63@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message > >> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > answer from the top of the head of someone who only thinks he knows is not > preferable, IMNSHO. Perhaps you shouldn't have wasted your time. Your reproof will keep me humble for a day or two. Since I try to be specific in my postings, rather than just blowing smoke, I am on occasion specifically and clearly wrong. Given the volume of my posting, it not surprising that I exposed a gap in my understanding. The worst of it and the best of it is that the topic was so close to home. You've surely saved me real life embarrassment versus embarrassment of my alter ego here on the Usenet. Still on balance my posting history is better than that of Happy Dog even considering my error or errors. So I request that you hang around and post something interesting, instructive, and specific. Best Wishes and Somewhat Humbly.............William Noyes "William_Noyes" <notarealaddress@fictional.org> > Thanks. I did get this rather wrong. > It has been 30 years since I'd given this any thought and > even when I did I must have got the topic tangled. "Must of"? Like I said, was an idiot, are an idiot. > Since I try to be specific in my postings, rather than > just blowing smoke, I am on occasion specifically and clearly wrong. The private hell of your noble, but asymptotic, struggle towards perfection is at last, selflessly, revealed. My respect and condolences. > Given the volume of my posting, it not surprising that I exposed > a gap in my understanding. Google: Results 1 - 100 of about 107 for author:william_noyes. (0.89 seconds) Since mid-November. Wow! Four a day. It's a wonder you manage to feed yourself. No wonder you've forgotten your hard earned basic education. We all understand. > The worst of it and the best of it is that > the topic was so close to home. You've surely saved me real life > embarrassment versus embarrassment of my alter ego here on the Usenet. Alter ego = Gutless anonymous twit. > Still on balance my posting history is better than that of Happy Dog even > considering my error or errors. Godlike. (A moment to recover, please.) Anyway, up yours, narcissistic w.nk. If you have a real challenge to my posts, knock yourself out and say something intelligent. Stooping to "in spite of failing to offer evidence I'm *still* better than XX because, well, because I say I am" is the mating call of the incorrigibly self-besotted. > So I request that you hang around and post something interesting, > instructive, and specific. OK. (Even if you aren't asking me.) 1. When you write something really stupid - in the process of smearing another poster -, say "Gee, I f.cked up. Maybe I'll get you next time. In the meantime, I apologize." 2. f.ck you and the horse you rode in on. Hee hee. LOVE Usenet. Le Moo >"William_Noyes" <notarealaddress@fictional.org> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >"Must of"? Like I said, was an idiot, are an idiot. HD, have you considered switching to decaf? -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) "David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> >>"William_Noyes" <notarealaddress@fictional.org> >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > HD, have you considered switching to decaf? he he I wouldn't consider my response unprovoked though. moo "William_Noyes" <notarealaddress@fictional.org> wrote in message > "Happy Dog" <happydog@sympatico.ca> wrote in message >> "hawki63" <hawki63@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The calcium and magnesium cations are replaced with sodium cations In an ion-exchange water softening system that uses Potassium Chloride? The original poster mentioned *only* the Potassium salts used in the unit in their building. Idiot. > This is first year chemistry. Didn't the Dog take chemistry > at university or even junior college? The Dog didn't go to University or Junior College. If you put yourself up as a shining product of the education system, it looks like the Dog made the right choice. Although, perhaps, a lack of raw intellectual horsepower limited your potential. Even in a system that embraces any moron. The Dog opines that the current higher education system is wasted on the vast majority of intellectually ungifted journeymen who couldn't survive the higher standards of a few decades ago. > Or is this a rhetorical question? Designed to waste the time > of his opponent. Except someone else (me) knows the > answer off the top of his head.:-Z Happy Dog posts heat > and smoke as do most residents of MHA. Hey, what is > Happy Dog doing out of MHA? Hey stoopid, you don't know your a.s from the top of your head on this topic. Anyone who did would be familiar with the use of Potassium salts in ion-exchange units. My question to hawki63 was rhetorical but inoffensive. Hey stoopid, your problem is a lack of intelligence or a lack of attention or both. In any challenging pursuit that requires either, you're a menace. We pray for deliverance. Le Moo >Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium ions..the >hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water >softener.. It is if you use potassium salts, instead of sodium chloride. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) > >Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium ions..the > >hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. > "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants Does anyone have a comment about my original question? And if softened water has some encouraging effect on plaque formation, will using Brita filters stop that? > were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) >> >Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium >ions..the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >water has some encouraging effect on plaque formation, will using Brita >filters stop that? Are we talking about arterial plaques here? I think the evidence that soft water is good (or bad) for your arteries is ambiguous. Ironically, magnesium may well be good for your heart, so removing it might not be a great idea, except that water is not typically a major source of most minerals (there are exceptions, like fluoride). -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) > >> >Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium > >ions..the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants > were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) This is all I've found so far. http://tinyurl.com/4hzgn I've been told that yes, the salt content of the water will approximately double. That's one problem. Then apparently the increased calcium content of the water causes arterial plaque. I haven't substantiated any of this. But thank you for your response. Correction: it's the *decrease* in calcium that causes the arterial plaque. problem. Maybe.... >Correction: it's the *decrease* in calcium that causes the arterial >plaque. problem. Maybe.... Maybe. On the other hand, it's the removal of magnesium and calcium that gets rid of the scaling on the inside of your water pipes. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) My concern is what softened water is doing to *my* pipes (arteries). I have been told there are studies showing communities with softened water have higher levels of heart disease. So it is not only the potassium & sodium (with other water softening systems) increase that is troublesome. However there is nothing I can do about what has been done in my "home". Now I am trying to find out what my safest, least expensive alternative is for cooking and drinking water. I am not allowed to put anything on the plumbing and Brita and similar filters will not correct the softening. I am not concerned about my calcium intake. There is no osteoporosis in my family. Zee > >Correction: it's the *decrease* in calcium that causes the arterial > >plaque. problem. Maybe.... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants > were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) >My concern is what softened water is doing to *my* pipes (arteries). I >have been told there are studies showing communities with softened [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I am not concerned about my calcium intake. There is no osteoporosis in >my family. Just for you, Zee, I've just spent a little time in PubMed, trying to find out the answer to your question. Some studies find a slightly elevated risk of coronary heart disease due to soft water. Some do not. There's a group in Taiwan that seems to want to associate soft water with everything from pancreatic cancer to heart disease, but a 2004 study in Japan found no relation between CHD and water hardness. Even if there is an effect, it appears to be due to the lower levels of magnesium and calcium in the water. If this worries you, take a calcium/magnesium supplement. That ought to do it. (I do that myself because magnesium deficiency is remarkably common and there is some history of heart disease in my family.) I'm looking into getting a water softener, but the plumbing in my condo is not well-suited to installing one. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) >> >Correction: it's the *decrease* in calcium that causes the arterial >> >plaque. problem. Maybe.... >> >> Maybe. On the other hand, it's the removal of magnesium and calcium >> that gets rid of the scaling on the inside of your water pipes. > >My concern is what softened water is doing to *my* pipes (arteries). I > >have been told there are studies showing communities with softened [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >I am not concerned about my calcium intake. There is no osteoporosis in > >my family. > Just for you, Zee, I've just spent a little time in PubMed, trying to > find out the answer to your question. Some studies find a slightly [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I'm looking into getting a water softener, but the plumbing in my > condo is not well-suited to installing one. Nor was it here, which necessitated softening the cold water as well as hot. Management does try though. Found a case of bottled water outside my door this morning! Presumably the water softening device was installed because some tenents complained they weren't geting their sinks and laundry clean enough. I'm not one willing to exchange living rivers for blinding linen. Thanks for your help David. > -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net > These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >> Maybe. On the other hand, it's the removal of magnesium and calcium > >> that gets rid of the scaling on the inside of your water pipes. "David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message > Even if there is an effect, it appears to be due to the lower levels > of magnesium and calcium in the water. If this worries you, take > a calcium/magnesium supplement. Isn't that, pretty much, recommended for everyone now? > I'm looking into getting a water softener, but the plumbing in my > condo is not well-suited to installing one. I've seen some pretty small ones. (If that's the issue.) m >"David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Isn't that, pretty much, recommended for everyone now? Well, a daily multivitamin is, yes. So I don't think I was going way out on a limb here... :-) >> I'm looking into getting a water softener, but the plumbing in my >> condo is not well-suited to installing one. > >I've seen some pretty small ones. (If that's the issue.) No, it's that the units need to flush out the resin chambers every so often, and the geniuses who set up the piping in my place put the drain pipes a long way from the inlet pipes (and higher up, where they aren't that far apart horizontally). -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) > My concern is what softened water is doing to *my* pipes (arteries). Buy a countertop water distiller by Megahome or Kenmore and stop worrying about it. These work well with softened water. Thanks Matt. I will look into the distiller. I did not know such a thing was available. I learned the sodium content of the water is about 250 mg per litre. It also feels slippery, and tastes odd. Zee > > My concern is what softened water is doing to *my* pipes (arteries). > > Buy a countertop water distiller by Megahome or Kenmore and stop > worrying about it. These work well with softened water. "zwalanga" <zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in message > I've been told that yes, the salt content of the water will > approximately double. That's one problem. The concern is increased Sodium intake. Not a consideration in your case since your water is softened with Potassium (Chloride). > Then apparently the increased > calcium content of the water causes arterial plaque. I haven't > substantiated any of this. But thank you for your response. Lack of Calcium. But there are many other sources of Calcium than tap water. And tap water varies quite a bit in dissolved mineral content. le m >>>>>Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium >>> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > calcium content of the water causes arterial plaque. I haven't > substantiated any of this. But thank you for your response. http://home.howstuffworks.com/question99.htm Thanks Matt. Good site. The system here is softened with potassium. Zee > >>>>>Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium > >>> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > > http://home.howstuffworks.com/question99.htm >>>Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >> were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) Presumably the Brita you mention is basically an activated carbon filter. Such a filter will not affect sodium, magnesium, calcium, potassium, fluoride, or other ions. I believe it will reduce dissolved chlorine, but not chloride ions. I have been told distilled water is not good for heart health. Quote: distilled water is bad for your heart. unquote. (Person who has worked on water quality studies.) Yes. Brita removes only off-taste. And not a lot of that. Scotch. Scotch is made from water taken from pristine babbling brooks in the Scottish Highlands. Right? Zee > >>>Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > potassium, fluoride, or other ions. I believe it will reduce dissolved > chlorine, but not chloride ions. >I have been told distilled water is not good for heart health. Quote: >distilled water is bad for your heart. unquote. (Person who has worked >on water quality studies.) I have been able to find no evidence of this in PubMed. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) >> >>>Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium >> > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >dissolved >> chlorine, but not chloride ions. > >I have been told distilled water is not good for heart health. Quote: > >distilled water is bad for your heart. unquote. (Person who has worked > >on water quality studies.) > > I have been able to find no evidence of this in PubMed. Nor have I. Here are some of the things I have been told by people who are either selling equipment to soften or distill water, or people who test water: @ do not store water in plastic. it is carcinogenic because polysomethings leach into it. @ distilled water is the best. @ distilled water is bad. @ the potassium in your softened water is good for you. @ 2 L. your water: sodium = 2 slices white bread (500 mg) @ once you open the container, even if it is stored on a cooler/dispenser it has been contaminated by bacteria. @ instructions on how to build my own still: You need a kettle and a pot lid of ice, or even cool water will work. Tilt the lid towards a glass and capture it. Or, get a piece of aluminum dryer vent from the hardware...the kind that is unjoined and comes in a bent semiflat ready to join form. It is long enough to prop over the kettle and allow water to run over. Put a piece of tape in the middle to trip the distilled water into your glass. Just in time for New Year's Eve. Zee > -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net > These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >dissolved > >> chlorine, but not chloride ions. >> >I have been told distilled water is not good for heart health. >Quote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >@ do not store water in plastic. it is carcinogenic because >polysomethings leach into it. There may be a little, but the plastics that are most suspect these days are the really flexible ones, like plastic wrap, not the rigid ones. >@ distilled water is the best. > >@ distilled water is bad. I think the idea that "distilled water is bad" comes from the idea that water is an important source of minerals. Mostly, it's not, other than fluoride. >@ the potassium in your softened water is good for you. That may be true, but it depends on how much potassium you get already. >@ 2 L. your water: sodium = 2 slices white bread (500 mg) > >@ once you open the container, even if it is stored on a >cooler/dispenser it has been contaminated by bacteria. True, but so what? >@ instructions on how to build my own still: Have fun moonshining. Watch out for the revenooers. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT) > Presumably the Brita you mention is basically an activated carbon > filter. Such a filter will not affect sodium, magnesium, calcium, > potassium, fluoride, or other ions. I believe it will reduce dissolved > chlorine, but not chloride ions. You´re making assumptions again ...  Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- > X-No-Archive: Yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for the potassium salt used to soften the water, or something more > complex. If they use standard softener salt (NaCl) it's not an issue, but there is an increase in sodium equal to the amount of other minerals displaced. You will not be able to taste it even if the water is relatively hard. In theory, you are not supposed to use it for watering plants and a few other things, but in reality, it's not likely to make a difference. If they do use potassium, you can figure out how much will be added to the water supply by taking a sample of your tap water in for testing. It would have to be water that was not softened. Then when they test for grains of hardness, you can figure out how much potassium will be added. Generally, sodium chloride is used for water softeners because it's much cheaper. >>X-No-Archive: Yes >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If they use standard softener salt (NaCl) it's not an issue, but there is an > increase in sodium equal to the amount of other minerals displaced. "proportional" would be a more correct and useful term than "equal". |
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