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Medical Forum / General / General / December 2004

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Gall Bladder Question

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DHess - 04 Dec 2004 20:17 GMT
A friend of mine recently had her Gall Bladder out because of "serious
reflux".  She had no pain.  My question is, is how exactly does the gall
bladder cause heartburn or acid reflux?  It doesn't seem to me like it
should.  But I'm no doctor, so here I be.
    Now, the way I understand it, the gall bladder simply stores bile to
aid in the digestion of fats.  The bile doesn't even empty into the
stomach, but goes into the intestines.  Now, I can see how it can
cause gas, and I can see how it would cause loose stools, but nausea
and such? Seems sort of funny to me.  What do you guys/gals think?

Don
Howard McCollister - 04 Dec 2004 20:41 GMT
>A friend of mine recently had her Gall Bladder out because of "serious
> reflux".  She had no pain.  My question is, is how exactly does the gall
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> cause gas, and I can see how it would cause loose stools, but nausea
> and such? Seems sort of funny to me.  What do you guys/gals think?

The gallbladder has nothing to do with gastroesophageal reflux disease, and
removing the gallbladder will have no effect on it.

HMc
DHess - 04 Dec 2004 21:04 GMT
> The gallbladder has nothing to do with gastroesophageal reflux disease, and
> removing the gallbladder will have no effect on it.
>
> HMc
Thanks for the quick reply.  I didn't think it should.

Don
David Rind - 04 Dec 2004 22:26 GMT
>>A friend of mine recently had her Gall Bladder out because of "serious
>>reflux".  She had no pain.  My question is, is how exactly does the gall
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> HMc

While this is true, the OP seems to be questioning whether gallbladder
disease could present with nausea or be mistaken for reflux. Both can occur.

Reflux and gallstones are both common, and reflux-type symptoms in
someone with gallstones usually have nothing to do with the gallstones.

Occasionally, though, the symptoms really are related and get better
when the gallbladder is removed. Figuring out who should have
gallbladder surgery in such a circumstance can be really tricky, and
probably involves at least as much luck as skill.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Howard McCollister - 04 Dec 2004 23:24 GMT
>>>A friend of mine recently had her Gall Bladder out because of "serious
>>>reflux".  She had no pain.  My question is, is how exactly does the gall
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> surgery in such a circumstance can be really tricky, and probably involves
> at least as much luck as skill.

I agree that gallbladder symptoms can be mistaken for reflux symptoms and
vice versa. I interpreted the OP's original point and question based on the
part where he said: "A friend of mine recently had her Gall Bladder out
because of "serious reflux".  She had no pain.  My question is, is how
exactly does the gallbladder cause heartburn or acid reflux?"

HMc
DHess - 05 Dec 2004 00:03 GMT
>>>>A friend of mine recently had her Gall Bladder out because of "serious
>>>>reflux".  She had no pain.  My question is, is how exactly does the gall
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> HMc

This is correct.  She has said that it is too soon to know whether it has
had any affect on her reflux yet.  I was wanting to know whether the two
were related, because I know a bit about this sort of thing and thought it
was odd.

Don
Howard McCollister - 05 Dec 2004 03:31 GMT
>> I agree that gallbladder symptoms can be mistaken for reflux symptoms and
>> vice versa. I interpreted the OP's original point and question based on
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> were related, because I know a bit about this sort of thing and thought it
> was odd.

There are a number of GI problems that can manifest themselves with similar
symptoms, and these include gallbladder disease, GERD, peptic ulcer disease,
irritable bowel syndrome. Nailing down the diagnosis can be difficult, but
it would be hard (not impossible) to justify removing the gallbladder in the
absence of any defineable pathology. If I were conducting a workup for upper
abdominal pain and the gallbladder was normal, removing it would likely have
to wait until other causes of the symptoms had been excluded to the extent
possible. There is a more ready tendency to remove the gallbladder for
indications that would have been well outside the standards of care15 years
ago when it required a major right upper quadrant incision. I'm not saying
that's necessarily a bad thing, but the OP's scenario of removing the
gallbladder for reflux symptoms sounds pretty far off the mark.

HMc
David Rind - 05 Dec 2004 04:27 GMT
> There are a number of GI problems that can manifest themselves with similar
> symptoms, and these include gallbladder disease, GERD, peptic ulcer disease,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> HMc

Agreed. I'm guessing that the woman who had her gallbladder out at least
had gallstones. If there really were not even gallstones, and they took
her gallbladder out just to see if that might help with reflux-type
symptoms, that would be a pretty unusual decision.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Howard McCollister - 05 Dec 2004 12:58 GMT
> Agreed. I'm guessing that the woman who had her gallbladder out at least
> had gallstones. If there really were not even gallstones, and they took
> her gallbladder out just to see if that might help with reflux-type
> symptoms, that would be a pretty unusual decision.

Actually, cholecystectomy in the absence of gallstones is becoming quite a
bit more common than in the past. The diagnosis of biliary dyskinesia is
seen with increasing frequency. That diagnosis is made by HIDA scan with
volumetric gallbladder emptying in response to IV administration of CCK. An
ejection fraction of less than 30% is considered a positive test, as well as
duplication or exacerbation of the pain with the injection. Personally, I
like to also see some supporting factors, such as strong family history or
classic pain presentation (fatty food->RUQ pain->radiate to back...etc).

A typical workup might be ultrasound of the GB. If negative, then probably
an EGD for ulcer or esophagitis. If negative then perhaps empiric trial of a
PPI, or maybe ambulatory pH testing and esophageal manometry *or*  HIDA/CCK
. . Maybe a gastroenterology consult in there somewhere for irritable bowel
syndrome workup.

There is an entity called hypertensive Sphincter of Oddi. This can be
painful, and can cause RUQ pain that can be troublesome. The diagnosis is
made by manometry of the sphincter and common duct and treatment is
sphincterotomy. There's only one place in this state that has that equipment
(Mayo Clinic doesn't have it), and the gastroenterologist that runs the
program won't even do the testing unless the patient continues to have that
pain after cholecystectomy. I've actually seen a few patients with this -
one of those situations where the diagnosis is elusive, and this GI
consultant recommended empiric cholecystectomy. Interestingly, it eliminates
the problem in most of the situations I've done this, even in the absence of
in the absence of ANY of the usual indications. The 2 patients whom it
didn't help turned out to have hypertensive sphincter of Oddi and
sphincterotomy fixed it.

So much of what I learned in my residency has turned out to be wrong....

HMc
David Rind - 05 Dec 2004 16:31 GMT
>>Agreed. I'm guessing that the woman who had her gallbladder out at least
>>had gallstones. If there really were not even gallstones, and they took
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> HMc

I, too, have seen more people being diagnosed with sphincter of Oddi
dysfunction. I have been underwhelmed at the accuracy of HIDA scans in
diagnosing biliary dyskinesia (or much of anything) in a primary care
setting where prevalence of disease is low. Your mileage may vary.

However, my above point remains: at least around here, it would be
pretty unusual to remove the gallbladder in someone without gallstones
who had symptoms that were atypical for biliary colic. If you are seeing
that being done a lot, I'd love to see a randomized trial of
cholecystectomy for dyspepsia or GERD symptoms in people with only
HIDA/CCK evidence of a gallbladder problem.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Howard McCollister - 05 Dec 2004 17:09 GMT
> I, too, have seen more people being diagnosed with sphincter of Oddi
> dysfunction. I have been underwhelmed at the accuracy of HIDA scans in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> for dyspepsia or GERD symptoms in people with only HIDA/CCK evidence of a
> gallbladder problem.

No, it's certainly not being done a lot, and I agree that we still like to
see some semblance of indications before doing a cholecystectomy, and I'm
generally opposed to the concept of empiric cholecystectomy. The only
circumstances where I've done that have been on the recommendation at
consultation from a gastroenterologist.

A recent anecdotal example: 36 year old female with persistent
mid-epigastric and RUQ pain. Fatty food intolerance and family history of
gallstones. U/S negative, HIDA/CCK negative. PMH bilateral mastectomy for
unilateral breast cancer with adjuvant chemo 3 years previously. I sent her
to the GI guy for sphincter manometry, but he instead did an EUS and
diagnosed chronic pancreatitis, probably from the chemo. Aha! I thought, but
in the next paragraph he recommended cholecystectomy anyway. I did that, and
her pain disappeared. Crappy anecdote, but it's all I've got.

HMc
 
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