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Medical Forum / General / General / December 2004

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Re: Vitamin C effect on some diseases by Dr Levy

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markd@toad-net.com - 04 Dec 2004 16:43 GMT
As a benchmark for this topic one could do worse then :

Vitamin C, Linus Pauling Institute"

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminC/index.html

They discuss what is known about vit c as regard to disease treatment and
how much might be needed; from a scientific point of view.  Having not
read the Levy book it is hard to speak of it's scientific merit.  Having
1200 refs is not the same as being scientific valid as he sees the
question.  Looking at a few of his blurbs on the net is intresting.  In
reference to the 1200 refs he says he saw a pattern in the clinical
information, which means in the usual sense the reports of doctors when
using it and their reports of apparent changes.  While suggestive and
makes it worthy of doing science about this intresting question, it is not
scientific confirmation.  Another of his blurbs is an example.  He had two
west nile virus folk take lots of vit c and they got better as gauged by
the level of symptoms change.  This is intresting but is not "proof" as is
required in science.  A research using hiv for example would be something
like this.  Two groups of hiv people are matched by age, weight, stage of
symptoms etc. into those who use current approaches and one using same but
with the addition of vit c.  Not only would a change in symptoms be an
supporting outcome, but the level and even possible absense of the hiv
virus would be strong support in the question.  This is the difference
between the "trial and error" and see what happens to symptoms type of
medicine and the evidence based controlled research driven medicine
illustrated above.

As to commercial conspiracy to keep this from being known or practiced, it
all depends on whose commercial intrest ox is being gorged.  ATM is
perhaps the world's largest graim company and producer of grain derived
products.  When they produce high fructose corn sweetner they also produce
vit e and vit c as by products.  They would be happy to provide all the
vit c you might want, as corn is the most common source of it and the have
a very very big chunck of the corn market and vit c markets.  Does this
mean this company, and similar, are the real driving source of dr. levy
and this kind of book?  Levy is in the state of co., right next to the
grain growing area of the country and ADM is a very large contributer to
politicians and research at universities.  The pattern is emerging and the
conspracy affot watson.  Where is the nutrition theology when we need it
most?

>http://www.whale.to/a/levy_h.html
>
>Polio (Curable and Preventable)...................................51
> Vitamin C and Polio: Supportive Research..................58
> ADDITIONAL VIRAL DISEASES AND VITAMIN C ...59
> Viral Hepatitis (Curable and Preventable)...................59
> Measles (Curable and Preventable)..............................66
> Mumps (Curable and Preventable)..............................70
> Viral Encephalitis (Curable and Preventable)..............72
> Chickenpox and Herpes Infections (Curable and
>Preventable)............................................80
> Viral Pneumonia (Curable and Preventable)................85
> Influenza (Curable and Preventable)............................87
> Rabies (Preventable; Curable-?, Reversible-?)..............90
> AIDS (Reversible and Preventable; Curable-? ) ...........92
> The Common Cold (Reversible and Preventable; Curable-?) ...................
>102
> Ebola Virus (Curable-?, Reversible-?, Preventable?) .
> 107 NON-VIRAL INFECTIOUS DISEASES AND VITAMIN
>C.................................................................... 110
> Diphtheria (Curable and Preventable)......................
> Pertussis (Reversible and Preventable; Curable-?)..... 115
> Tetanus (Curable and Preventable)........................... 119
> Tuberculosis  (Reversible and Preventable; Curable-?) ...................
>124
> Streptococcal Infections (Curable and
>Preventable)......................................... 138
> Leprosy (Reversible and Preventable; Curable-?)...... 151
> Typhoid Fever (Reversible and Preventable; Curable-?) ...................
>154
> Malaria (Reversible; Curable-?, Preventable-?) ......... 156
> Brucellosis (Reversible; Curable-?, Preventable-?) .... 160 :
> Trichinosis (Reversible; Curable-?, Preventable-?) .... 162
> OTHER INFECTIOUS DISEASES OR PATHOGENIC MICROORGANISMS AND VITAMIN
>C.................... 164
> Amebic Dysentery (Reversible and Preventable; Curable-?)
>................... 164
> Bacillary Dysentery (Curable and Preventable)........ 167
> Pseudomonas Infections (Curable and
>Preventable)......................................... 169
> Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever (RMSF) (Curable;
>Preventable-?)............................................ 171
> Staphylococcal Infections (Curable and
>Preventable)......................................... 172
> Trypanosomal Infections (Reversible and Preventable; Curable-?)
>................... 174
john - 05 Dec 2004 16:28 GMT
> While suggestive and
> makes it worthy of doing science about this intresting question, it is not
> scientific confirmation.

Get a life, you have plenty of MDs some who have spent 40 years treating
disease, most of that using vitamin C, and one has never had a cot-death
since he started using it http://www.whale.to/vaccines/kalokerinos.html

So you are rather like the flat earth guy.

West Nile virus http://www.whale.to/v/nile1.html  funny how you pick the new
ones that could be just pesticide cover-up, and ignore the well proven cures
like measles, hepatitis etc.

Wishful thinking deleted.
listener - 05 Dec 2004 17:19 GMT
>> While suggestive and
>> makes it worthy of doing science about this intresting question, it
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Wishful thinking deleted.

Is there anything IV Vitamin C will *not* cure?

L.

P.S. The "get a life" thing suggests you're angry about something.
markd@toad-net.com - 05 Dec 2004 19:51 GMT
"Is there anything IV Vitamin C will *not* cure?"

Yes, human nature, speciffically that which motivates to see patterns
where none exist and require confirmation which controls for this weakness
in our observation experiences.
john - 06 Dec 2004 07:44 GMT
> Is there anything IV Vitamin C will *not* cure?

Yes, medical brainwashing.

> P.S. The "get a life" thing suggests you're angry about something.

I guess so, do you want me to remember why?  Must have been the time of
month, I tend to get easily annoyed then, full moon I think.
David Wright - 05 Dec 2004 18:19 GMT
>> While suggestive and
>> makes it worthy of doing science about this intresting question, it is not
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>disease, most of that using vitamin C, and one has never had a cot-death
>since he started using it http://www.whale.to/vaccines/kalokerinos.html

Yeah, so he says.  I took a look at the blurb for the Levy book and
started digging into Medline, trying to verify that vitamin C (usually
intravenous) could do all the miraculous things Levy claims it can.

Let's just say that the evidence for the ones I looked at was pretty
thin on the ground -- I mean, in some cases we're talking about one
single case report.  Yes, exactly one patient, total, and from this
we're supposed to assume miracles.

I was intrigued by the report that IV vit C was very helpful in
treating tetanus -- but what John leaves out, and I bet Levy does too,
is that the C was used *in addition to* conventional therapy.  It did
seem to help a lot, though -- deaths were reduced from 74% to zero.
Still, it's just one report.  Tetanus treatments are hard to test in
humans in the developed world because the disease is so rare.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
          were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)
markd@toad-net.com - 05 Dec 2004 19:45 GMT
"Get a life, you have plenty of MDs some who have spent 40 years treating
disease, most of that using vitamin C, and one has never had a cot-death"

I read an article recently about the long and widely followed tradition in
medicine to advise people having certain surgery not to consume oral foods
until a bm. In the meantime, it could take days, they were on a glucose
iv.  It made sense, until research was actually done to see what happens
when a group using the tradition was compared in a research study to a
group who started eating solid foods right after surgery with no bm in
sight.  There was no difference in outcome.  A great deal of medicine was
established with the trial and error method without confirmation based on
structured research to confirm the "common sense" and experience of the
doctors.  Most doctors are not scientists but are intrested in doing what
works, which makes them liable to any influence as any other group for
making clinical choices, including "because we have always done it" and "I
tried it with some of my patients and it seemed to make a difference" and
other such.  That is a sensible starting place, but the science still is
needed for confirmation and to exclude other possible reasons for the same
outcome.  Death by vit c was and is not relevant to the discussion.
 
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