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Medical Forum / General / General / December 2004

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Does the flu shot work?

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outrider@despammed.com - 29 Nov 2004 17:21 GMT
<Co-author Jim Wright is head of Therapeutics Initiative and a member
of the Cochrane Collaboration. Zee>

"The internationally recognized Cochrane Collaboration (which accepts
no money from the pharmaceutical industry) did a systematic review of
all randomized trials studying the effectiveness of influenza
vaccination and concluded that the evidence does not support universal
immunization of healthy adults."

Universal flu shots: the $125-million question

By ALAN CASSELS and JIM WRIGHT
Globe and Mail Update
Monday, Nov 29, 2004

This flu season so far has been quirkier than most, with more twists
and turns than a B-grade slasher movie. We can tell you we are glued to
our seats watching Canada's media have a field day, expending barrels
of ink on the ups and downs of this season's flu saga.

First there was the U.S. vaccine supply-shortage story, dooming
millions of Americans to certain illness this winter. Then came the
news claiming that we can stretch the vaccination supply by just
squirting a little of it under the skin, followed by a Dutch study that
says people who get annual flu shots live longer. And just out is a
story in the Canadian Medical Association Journal on new research
saying that doctors should be recommending the flu shot for every
Canadian.

On top of it, ironies abound as American citizens, whose government
likes to spurn Canadian-made drugs as "unsafe," are arriving here in
Victoria by the boatload and lining up for the flu vaccine that they
can't get back home.

There's nothing like making something a teensy bit scarce to drive up
its perceived value. In fact, the U.S. seniors arriving at Victoria's
docks are fuelling the hype and hysteria that is causing thousands more
of us to get the shot. Demand in Canada for the flu vaccine is
apparently 25-per-cent higher than last year.

Yet amid the flu frenzy, two very important questions aren't given much
airplay: What is an average person's risk of catching the flu? And what
is the ability of the flu shot to actually prevent it?

Those are two pretty vital questions worth examining, seeing as it
would cost us Canadian taxpayers up as much as $125-million a year to
immunize all 32 million of us for the flu.

Despite persistent and scary references to a deadly epidemic ready to
sweep the globe, the actual incidence of flu in healthy adults is
relatively low. In that recent CMAJ analysis, the authors analyzed more
than 18 flu-vaccine trials and reported that the rate of flu is
somewhere between 1.3 per cent and 20 per cent. This seems rather low,
considering the numbers of colds and other nasty respiratory illnesses
many of us get in the winter. But the flu shot does nothing to prevent
those other non-influenza viruses from getting
us.

And if we get the flu shot, how well does it actually work?

The efficacy was reported as somewhere between 0 per cent and 18 per
cent, depending on which outcome is being measured - hospitalizations,
illnesses, or absent days from work. The kicker is that the efficacy of
the flu vaccine we get each year depends wholly on the ability of
scientists to predict the previous spring what they think will be the
dominant flu strains that year.

It's a crap shoot, a guessing game. And they often get it wrong, as
they did last year.

Public-health officials in Canada seem to be saying everyone needs a
flu shot. We contend that it is possible that both the "disease" caused
by influenza viruses and the preventative vaccine regimes pushed on
healthy people are so hyped they border on disease-mongering. We think
it's likely not worth spending $125-million to vaccinate all of us each
year for this condition.

After all, how much reduction in absenteeism, hospitalizations or even
deaths will $125-million buy us?

No one really knows the answer. It would probably cost us less than
$100,000 to find out. It would be incredibly easy to set up a proper,
randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind study of the flu vaccine,
tested on people from all groups - healthy people, the elderly and
children.

We need a trial - because despite the breathless pronouncements over
the flu, there is genuine scientific controversy over immunizing people
for something that they probably won't get and for which the outcomes
are uncertain. Like any medical intervention, there are some short-term
adverse effects we can predict, and long-term ones we can't predict.

A recent systematic review of more than 25 studies of flu immunization
came to conclusions quite different than those recent front-page
headlines would suggest. The internationally recognized Cochrane
Collaboration (which accepts no money from the pharmaceutical industry)
did a systematic review of all randomized trials studying the
effectiveness of influenza vaccination and concluded that the evidence
does not support universal immunization of healthy adults.

This study found that the flu shot reduced the incidence of clinical
influenza on average by 6 per cent, but there was high variability in
effectiveness. There were not enough hospitalizations or deaths in the
data to come to any conclusions as to what kind of payback the vaccines
are delivering.

So the jury is still out on whether a flu shot for all Canadians is a
good use of scarce health-care dollars.

And here's our challenge to our public-health agencies eager to see us
all vaccinated. Set up the study. Randomize about 10,000 Canadians and
bring on the needle. We're ready to roll up our sleeves and do our part
if it is for a study that will help to answer the $125-million question
- but not otherwise.

~~~~~~~~

Alan Cassels is a drug-policy researcher with the University of
Victoria.

Jim Wright is a professor in the departments of pharmacology and
therapeutics, and medicine at the University of British Columbia.

~~~~~~~~

*Zee ed: Wright is also the head of Therapeutics Initiative and a
member of the Cochrane Collaboration.
*Therapeutics initiative
www.ti.ubc.ca
Martha H Adams - 01 Dec 2004 02:19 GMT
This is a really interesting topic in itself and in its
ramifications.  I posted here a few weeks ago with the idea that if a
large number of people received placebo flu inoculations, would it
make a detectable difference?  Would any of the Powers *want* to
detect the difference?  I think the topic illustrates the breakdown of
our medical services here.

Side note.  In today's New York Times.  A piece foreseeing high
liklihood of an avian flu pandemic.  It said, vaccine makers would not
want to start making avian flu vaccine until six months into the
pandemic, because the avian flu virus is protean -- it changes a lot
and does it fast.  I think whoever is trying to guess future history,
wants to give avian and perhaps other flus a large place in it.

Cheers -- Martha Adams
Ed Mathes - 01 Dec 2004 04:00 GMT
What?

The "Powers that be"?

What "detectable differences"?

You have a viral illness that kills 50,000-70,000 people a year, and you
want to give a placebo immunization.

I posted a cite that demonstrated the efficacy of flu vaccine the other day.

Vaccine makers wouldn't be able to make an effective vaccine against an
"avian flu pandemic" for the reason you state...it changes fast.  If that
weren't an issue, we would be able to immunize against the common cold,
AIDS, etc.

And I would describe the New York Times as a unbiased source of
information....

> This is a really interesting topic in itself and in its
> ramifications.  I posted here a few weeks ago with the idea that if a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Cheers -- Martha Adams
john - 01 Dec 2004 16:48 GMT
> And I would describe the New York Times as a unbiased source of
> information....

LOL!
Happy Dog - 01 Dec 2004 04:00 GMT
> This is a really interesting topic in itself and in its
> ramifications.  I posted here a few weeks ago with the idea that if a
> large number of people received placebo flu inoculations, would it
> make a detectable difference?

Yes.  People would die as a result.

> Would any of the Powers *want* to
> detect the difference?  I think the topic illustrates the breakdown of
> our medical services here.

It illustrates the breakdown of your critical thinking skills.

> Side note.  In today's New York Times.  A piece foreseeing high
> liklihood of an avian flu pandemic.  It said, vaccine makers would not
> want to start making avian flu vaccine until six months into the
> pandemic, because the avian flu virus is protean -- it changes a lot
> and does it fast.  I think whoever is trying to guess future history,
> wants to give avian and perhaps other flus a large place in it.

That's because you don't understand the technology.  That and you're a bit
paranoid.

le m
Mr Lee - 01 Dec 2004 16:09 GMT
I know too many people, including a blood relative, who've gotten
Gilliam-Barre Syndrome from flu shots. One died. One's paralyzed, and
several will never be normal again.  I'll never take one.
I'll take my chances, and use Eldarberry Extract.

Lee  <><
Happy Dog - 02 Dec 2004 01:48 GMT
"Mr Lee" <lee@randadvertising.com> wrote in message

>I know too many people, including a blood relative, who've gotten
> Gilliam-Barre Syndrome from flu shots. One died. One's paralyzed, and
> several will never be normal again.  I'll never take one.
> I'll take my chances, and use Eldarberry Extract.

Then you're an idiot.  Regardless of your personal experience, the risk from
flu is vastly greater than the risk of vaccination.  BTW, last time you
posted this crap you claimed it was a total of three people.  Now you're up
to at least five.  Get your story straight.

le moo
lee@randadvertising.com - 02 Dec 2004 15:16 GMT
Now, why would I lie about this??
Name calling, btw, is VERY childish.

Lee  <><
Mr Lee - 02 Dec 2004 17:05 GMT
> "Mr Lee" <lee@randadvertising.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> le moo
Are you always this pleasant?

Lee
Happy Dog - 02 Dec 2004 22:40 GMT
"Mr Lee" <lee@randadvertising.com> wrote in message
>> "Mr Lee" <lee@randadvertising.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
> Are you always this pleasant?

Most days.  Anyway, I've seen you claim that the number was three:

Posted by MrLee to Protagoras
On News/Activism 11/26/2003 4:06:07 PM PST ? 88 of 149

I know 3 people who've had flu shots and gotten Gilliam-Barre Syndrome. 1
recovered after several months, 1 recovering (my cousin)after a year, and 1
paralyzed with NO recovery.
No flu shots for me!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 You did say this, no?  And, in any case, you don't understand the concept
of risk vs. reward.  Knowing someone injured by a particular occurrence
doesn't increase the odds of it happening to you.

moo
Steve Harris  sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com - 03 Dec 2004 02:37 GMT
> "Mr Lee" <lee@randadvertising.com> wrote in message
> >> "Mr Lee" <lee@randadvertising.com> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> moo

COMMENT:

It does if it's due to bad genetics and these are relatives. Look,
save for the swine flu vaccine fiasco in the 70's, getting G-B from a
flu shot is a million to one thing. You AND your cousin getting it are
a 100 billion to one, or something, depending on how many cousins you
have. The pure crap-shoot odds that you know three people this
happened to, including yourself, are (let me see) about a thousand
trillion, divided by the number of total people you know. A trillion
to one or something?

So either this guy's mistaken, or lying, or else he really is related
to some cluster, and in that case I wouldn't have the shot if I was
him, either! But that's not the same as (dis)recommending it to others
for the same reason.

SBH
Happy Dog - 03 Dec 2004 03:26 GMT
"Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:79cf0a8.0412021837.579c7b28@posting.google.com...
>> "Mr Lee" <lee@randadvertising.com> wrote in message
>> I know 3 people who've had flu shots and gotten Gilliam-Barre Syndrome. 1
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> him, either! But that's not the same as (dis)recommending it to others
> for the same reason.

Up until he added in a few more people, I agree.

moo
Mr. Lee - 03 Dec 2004 11:55 GMT
> "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
> message news:79cf0a8.0412021837.579c7b28@posting.google.com...
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >> of risk vs. reward.  Knowing someone injured by a particular occurrence
> >> doesn't increase the odds of it happening to you.
\> moo

Since I wrote that I've found 2 more people in my area. That's 5.
Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "several", but it's no reason to
insult someone. My posts were sincere. I was hoping there'd be others
who'd experienced this problem with the flu shots to give more insight
into this problem-if in fact, it is a widespread problem. All I know
is, after my cousin (my father's brother's daughter) had her problems
no one in the family dares to take a flu shot. She lives in
Connecticut, I live in Maine.

Lee
Happy Dog - 03 Dec 2004 21:20 GMT
"Mr. Lee" <mrsolidgold@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> >>   You did say this, no?  And, in any case, you don't understand the
>> >> concept
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> no one in the family dares to take a flu shot. She lives in
> Connecticut, I live in Maine.

As has been pointed out, the odds of this are in the billion plus to one
range.  You have been given insight into the rarity of this problem.  You
should re-evaluate your story or never get out of bed.

moo
N-H-P - 03 Dec 2004 16:14 GMT
> Then you're an idiot.  Regardless of your personal experience, the risk from
> flu is vastly greater than the risk of vaccination.  BTW, last time you
> posted this crap you claimed it was a total of three people.  Now you're up
> to at least five.  Get your story straight.

Speaking of idiots, would you care to support your statement with some
evidence?

Of all the vacccines, the flu vaccine has got to be the most
laughable.

Healthy people don't get sick, period.  Anybody at a high risk for the
flu has got a major health problem that they need to work on.

The average annual flu for the average healthy person is something
that they *NEVER* actually get.  I personally have never gotten the
flu, and I am 54 years old.

Just my opinion, but I am right as usual.
--
john gohde
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
bae@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu - 03 Dec 2004 16:47 GMT
>> Then you're an idiot.  Regardless of your personal experience, the risk from
>> flu is vastly greater than the risk of vaccination.  BTW, last time you
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Speaking of idiots, would you care to support your statement with some
>evidence?

Influenza is the sixth leading cause of death in Canada, and mortality
is probably similarly high in other developed countries with a large
population of elderly people.

>Of all the vacccines, the flu vaccine has got to be the most
>laughable.
>
>Healthy people don't get sick, period.  Anybody at a high risk for the
>flu has got a major health problem that they need to work on.

Right, if you're old, smarten up and get a few decades younger.  If you're
an infant, grow up.  If you have a chronic or serious disease, just get
over it.

>The average annual flu for the average healthy person is something
>that they *NEVER* actually get.  I personally have never gotten the
>flu, and I am 54 years old.

Most healthy people get the flu every five years or so on average.  They
may have a mild case and think it's a cold, though.  Generalizing from
one data point (yourself) to the entire world population is not usually
a good method of reasoning, however.

Of course, healthy people who are exposed to the flu may transmit it to
very vulnerable people who can get very sick and even die from it.  But
who cares?  Not John.  Vulnerable people should just work on their health
problems.  Their problems, not his.

>Just my opinion, but I am right as usual.

If all you care about is yourself, I suppose you are.
Jim Chinnis - 03 Dec 2004 20:10 GMT
johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com (N-H-P) wrote in part:

>Healthy people don't get sick, period.

Right...as long as they stay healthy. And who cares about the unhealthy,
right?
--
Jim Chinnis  Warrenton, Virginia, USA  jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
David Wright - 04 Dec 2004 04:23 GMT
>johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com (N-H-P) wrote in part:
>
>>Healthy people don't get sick, period.
>
>Right...as long as they stay healthy. And who cares about the unhealthy,
>right?

Right.  Toothless John has a keen grasp of the obvious, especially
when you define your problem away.  Healthy people don't get sick, so
as soon as someone gets sick, they're no longer healthy.  John will
then blame the victim and go off to do another good deed.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
          were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Happy Dog - 03 Dec 2004 21:17 GMT
"N-H-P" <johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote in

>> Then you're an idiot.  Regardless of your personal experience, the risk
>> from
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Speaking of idiots, would you care to support your statement with some
> evidence?

I did, you moron.

> Of all the vacccines, the flu vaccine has got to be the most
> laughable.
> Healthy people don't get sick, period.

When bitten by a rabid animal?

> Anybody at a high risk for the
> flu has got a major health problem that they need to work on.

Spanish flu, idiot.  Killed millions of young people in their prime.

> The average annual flu for the average healthy person is something
> that they *NEVER* actually get.  I personally have never gotten the
> flu, and I am 54 years old.

Then that's the problem.  If you'd had it, and weren't such an idiot as to
believe vaccination ineffective, you'd get the shot.

> Just my opinion, but I am right as usual.

Incorrect.  And that sig's already been taken.

le moo
> --
> john gohde
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Natural-Health
PF Riley - 03 Dec 2004 04:36 GMT
><Co-author Jim Wright is head of Therapeutics Initiative and a member
>of the Cochrane Collaboration. Zee>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>vaccination and concluded that the evidence does not support universal
>immunization of healthy adults."

Note carefully this quotation. The entire article was about whether or
not ALL HEALTHY ADULTS should be immunized in Canada. He's arguing for
no. Notice that no one has even proposed such a thing in the U.S. It
is NOT routinely recommended for healthy adults in the U.S.

If the original poster thought he was indicting the use of flu vaccine
in general by posting this article which is critical of an unusual
vaccine-policy which may be too aggressive, which is not in place in
the U.S. but was proposed in Canada, then he's wrong.

PF
bae@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu - 03 Dec 2004 17:31 GMT
>><Co-author Jim Wright is head of Therapeutics Initiative and a member
>>of the Cochrane Collaboration. Zee>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>no. Notice that no one has even proposed such a thing in the U.S. It
>is NOT routinely recommended for healthy adults in the U.S.

I didn't see the original posting, nor what criteria were used to reach
the conclusion.  If the main criterion is to significantly reduce
serious morbidity and mortality in healthy adults, it's probably
correct.

For the past several years, the Ontario government has offered free flu
shots to the general public, has advertised their availability, and
made them easy to obtain by holding flu shot clinics in shopping malls,
pharmacies, community centres and other convenient venues.  The purpose
is only secondarily to protect healthy adults -- it's mainly to
surround the vulnerable, the elderly and chronically ill, with people
who won't give them the flu.  The flu vaccines are not as effective in
the elderly as in younger adults, so just vaccinating the vulnerable
isn't a complete solution.

There are about 75,000 hospital admissions in Canada annually for
influenza and associated pneumonia and other complications.  You can
give out a *lot* of free flu shots for the cost of treating even one
such elderly person in hospital.  A bad flu season can cause severe
stress on ambulance, emergency department and other hospital
facilities.  Excess capacity to manage the flu season is expensive
since it isn't needed for the rest of the year.

Ontario started this large scale flu vaccination program after a
particularly bad flu season resulted in serious pressure on
facilities.  Although it hasn't been running long enough for good
statistics to be gathered, it appears to be working to reduce hospital
admissions and deaths among the elderly for flu and its complications.
At least one other province has started a similar program, and a recent
study recommends that the practice be implemented in all provinces.

(Note that a single payer system covering the entire population makes a
globally optimized strategy like this not only feasible but good
economics.  Similar programs of mass vaccination for other diseases are
in place in the US, and they not only protect the vaccinated, but by
establishing herd immunity, they protect those who aren't or can't be
effectively immunized by surrounding them with people who can't infect
them.)

I'm one of those people who "doesn't get sick", but I've been getting
flu shots the past few years partly because I don't want to kill
anybody by sneezing near them.  I also figure there may be some benefit
to educating my immune system about a variety of influenza antigens
while it's still young enough to learn effectively.  Maybe it will do
me some good a few decades from now.  If not, well, I hope nobody gives
me the flu then because they weren't vaccinated and I'm too old to raise
a good immunity in response to vaccination myself.
outrider - 03 Dec 2004 17:52 GMT
http://www.dragonflymedia.com/sv/sv1712/wh_flushots1712.html

December 2004 Flu Shots
Something to read before you roll up your sleeve

by Alicia Priest

"While vaccine advocates point to numerous studies showing that the flu
shot significantly reduces risk of infection, not all studies carry
equal weight. Scientists conduct research in different ways, and
flu-shot effectiveness varies greatly from study to study.

The two dominant research methods are observational studies and
randomized controlled, double-blinded trials (RCT). The former is
basically what it says-observing a selected sample of the population.
This method is widely used but intrinsically flawed. Example? For
years, evidence from the U.S. observational Nurses' Health study
convinced doctors that hormone replacement therapy reduces women's
risk of heart disease. However, the recent Women's Health
Initiative-an RCT trial-proved just the opposite.

Similarly, a study by the University of Rotterdam received much media
attention recently with its recommendation for annual shots for people
over 65, based on the results of a study of 26,000 people from 1996 to
2002. However, that study was not randomized and controlled, and the
data as presented to the public was misleading.

An analysis of 25 flu RCT trials involving 59,566 healthy people aged
14 to 60 found that on average, only one of every 17 people vaccinated
avoids the flu. The same trials show no reductions in hospitalizations
or complications, as these occur infrequently in healthy adults, and no
reduction in deaths. The one large RCT study, which included 1,838
Dutch adults aged 60 and over, showed little evidence that shots were
beneficial even for the elderly."

------more---------

> <Co-author Jim Wright is head of Therapeutics Initiative and a member
> of the Cochrane Collaboration. Zee>
[quoted text clipped - 125 lines]
> *Therapeutics initiative
> www.ti.ubc.ca
Happy Dog - 03 Dec 2004 21:35 GMT
> http://www.dragonflymedia.com/sv/sv1712/wh_flushots1712.html
>
> December 2004 Flu Shots
> Something to read before you roll up your sleeve

< bullshit snipped >

The expert quoted apparently works at the place where they conclude this:

"Vaccination in cohort studies lowered rates of hospitalization, serious
morbidity and mortality in patients over 60."

moo
 
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