Medical Forum / General / General / November 2004
drugs that don't kill: a moral issue
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outrider - 27 Nov 2004 20:38 GMT You Want a Moral Issue? How about Drugs that Don't Kill?
Author: Arianna Huffington Published on Nov 24, 2004, 08:12
http://www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/printer_15610.shtml
"And if any of this sounds familiar, it should. It's certainly giving me a profound sense of drug company deja vu, with the tragic stories of Baycol, Rezulin and Duract still fresh in my mind. How many times do we have to travel down this deadly path - the side of the road littered with bodies and the empty containers of drugs that were approved despite serious questions, and left on the market despite growing evidence of innocent lives being lost?"
Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com - 28 Nov 2004 04:21 GMT > You Want a Moral Issue? How about Drugs that Don't Kill? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > despite serious questions, and left on the market despite growing > evidence of innocent lives being lost?" COMMENT:
Yo, Arianna. Believe or not, not all the bad things in the world are due to liberal or conservative conspiracies, or the selfishness of people with lots of money (not high on your personal list of evils, I know), or even to human error.
No, here's a shock for you: many of the world's problems are due to the fact that the problems themselves are inherently difficult. The difficulty of designing totally safe pharmaceuticals, for example, is related to the complexity of physiology, and physiology is fiendishly complex. And it's also related to the extreme difficulty and expense and aggravation of doing controlled animal and then human trials. If you've never studied advanced physiology or written a scientific paper or done a human or animal drug trial, you'll just have to take the word of those of us who have. Sorry. Social problems are only small subset of the problems inherent in the human condition.
Now, with enough money, we could go faster and do better. But the government and pharm industry together only spend about $40 billion or maybe (at the outside) $50 billion a year in the US on biomedical research. The Iraq war was equal to 10 years of that.
Of course, there's a limit on how fast science can find things out or engineer things out, no matter how much money it's given. But we're so far away from that limit (which was something like the speed of the Manhattan Project or the 60's race to the moon), that we can forget it. Medical science is now hobbled by lack of research money. It would be entirely possible to double the pace of medical knowledge gained, and cram 20 years of research into 10 years, if we had 20 years' worth of money to do it, instead of 10. And we could do it, if we wanted to. But we don't want to. Not really. It's not nearly as fun as blowing people up, or finding bad guys. You remember Bush started out in office planning to double the NIH budget. But his heart wasn't really in it. Only when it came to stuff like baseball clubs and jets, did Bush's heart really get pumping. Which is to say, he's a typical human male.
We all act as though we're immortal until we get sick, and then we want the cure now! And when we don't get it, we look for a witch to blame, because witch-hunting is something the human brain does naturally. Certainly it naturally sucks at doing science; much unnatural training is required for that. But gossiping and witch-finding and crime-solving and conspiracy-theories -- that really gets the heart going. I see it has yours going, when the science was really boring! Which is to you say, you're a typical human female.
So forget it. We're destined to spend our national money finding witches and blowing stuff up, because that's what our brains do best. It's going to take science to keep us from dying of disease and age, but we're not so good at that. So it's gunna hurt when you personally get old, because the stuff you want can't be gotten by killing somebody (the male tack), or by finding somebody to blame for why it doesn't exist (the female tack). It can only be gotten by years of patient scientific research. Which is *boring* compared with Republican macho bombs and Democratic mommy-liberal blame-games.
Lots of luck to you. You probably think that when you need advanced medicine, like stem cell transplants or something, you'll be able to buy it at some extravagant price, immediately, off the shelf. But you're wrong. Politics sometimes works that way. Nature generally doesn't.
SBH
Howard McCollister - 28 Nov 2004 05:15 GMT "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> Now, with enough money, we could go faster and do better.
> Of course, there's a limit on how fast science can find things out or > engineer things out, no matter how much money it's given. But we're so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of money to do it, instead of 10. And we could do it, if we wanted to. > But we don't want to. Not really. Jeez, this is so true that it brings a little tear to my eye.......
HMc
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 28 Nov 2004 12:41 GMT > "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in > message [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > HMc There is only sadness in Steve's world where money is lord, no truth.
Servant to the humblest person in the universe,
Andrew
-- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/
** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48
Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
Bob (this one) - 28 Nov 2004 19:10 GMT >>"Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in >>message [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > There is only sadness in Steve's world where money is lord, no truth. Give it a rest, Chung. You're so obviously deranged that your comments serve no purpose except to document it.
You've already posted this comment once today. Can you believe in your twisted view that repeating it makes it more true?
Meds. You need meds.
Bob
Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com - 29 Nov 2004 02:19 GMT > > "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in > > message [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > There is only sadness in Steve's world where money is lord, no truth. COMMENT:
Ahem. What would you know about truth, Chung? You're a perfect living breathing example of the reality of computer viruses for the human brain. You've been infected with one, and you've got it bad. It's taken you over, and now it walks you around and controls all your actions. There is no Norton anti-virus for it. Now, all you can do is sit there and spew spam and magical thinking, and you're a complete waste of space, and probably will be for life. You might just as well be chanting "Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna."
That exodus of friends, family, patients, coworkers, etc., away from you? They'd re-boot you if they could. But they can't. So they're headed for the tall timber, just as if you were dead and were emitting a bad smell. Because mentally, you actually *are* dead. And the smell is the stench of death of what was once a living mind, and is now a mass of wriggling mental parasitic roundworms. Yuck!
SBH
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 29 Nov 2004 13:39 GMT > > > "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in > > > message [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ahem. What would you know about truth, Chung? What I discern.
> You're a perfect living > breathing example of the reality of computer viruses for the human [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sit there and spew spam and magical thinking, and you're a complete > waste of space, and probably will be for life. Sorry my being openly Christian bothers you.
> You might just as well > be chanting "Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna." Sorry folks being open about their beliefs bother you.
> That exodus of friends, family, patients, coworkers, etc., away from > you? I see no exodus here.
> They'd re-boot you if they could. But they can't. Sorry my being openly Christian continues to bother you.
> So they're > headed for the tall timber, just as if you were dead and were emitting > a bad smell. Because mentally, you actually *are* dead. And the smell > is the stench of death of what was once a living mind, and is now a > mass of wriggling mental parasitic roundworms. Yuck! It remains your informed choice to reject Christ (shrug). My good work here is to inform you. Let it not ever be said you were not so informed.
> SBH It is written in Ephesians 2:
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
All is a waste of time until you find the way to eternal life with the Creator of the universe. When you do, there is no waste of time because there will be an infinite amount of it. Walking about aimlessly thinking it is *your* time, *your* money, *your* lot, *your* labor, *your* profit, and *your* power that you are using is tantamount to self-worship.
For Christ lights up the way through John 14:
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me..."
This bring us back again to the following very simple decision tree for the untruthful folks such as yourself, Steve, who have chosen to walk in the "dark":
(1) Accept Christ. Risk: Nothing.
Benefits: Salvation, purposeful life, eternal life, unimaginable riches in God's eternal kingdom.
(2) Reject Christ. Risk: Eternal separation from God. Eternal torment of your soul by satan.
Benefits: Nothing.
Again, one has to conclude that those (ie you, Carey, Bob, Zee, Frank, Hawki, Rolando, Don et al) who would reject Christ have not thought out their decision *logically*.
Would suggest you cast a glance at Bob Pastorio as a special example of untruthfully eloquent self-worship (BTW, Bob remains in my prayers out of Christian love) who is being driven to madness by my ignoring him (http://makeashorterlink.com/?V29A236C9 and more recently http://makeashorterlink.com/?V25D312E9). All this power belongs to God who has judged Bob Pastorio with His Word (http://makeashorterlink.com/?G33F51E69). All praises to Him, Whom I love with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength :-)
You will be in my prayers, dear Steve whom I love, in Christ's holy name.
May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that you too will escape satan's rule and torment of your soul after you die.
Please do consider the following as your logic should dictate before it is too late:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
(Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments, the 2 arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the 2PD Approach. Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make His presence known here on Usenet :-)
Servant to the humblest person in the universe,
Andrew
-- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/
** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48
Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
outrider - 28 Nov 2004 10:36 GMT very egalitarian: something to offend everyone.
zee
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 28 Nov 2004 12:41 GMT > very egalitarian: something to offend everyone. > > zee Such is Steve's world where money is lord.
May God bless you on this Lord's day, dear Zee whom I love, in Christ's holy name.
Servant to the humblest person in the universe,
Andrew
-- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/
** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48
Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
Ed Mathes - 28 Nov 2004 13:46 GMT Andrew...wake up...in a capitalistic society, money IS lord.
While democrats rail against republicans moneycentric views, some of the richest politicians are democrats.
Steven stated quite eloquently the current state of affairs....
Ed
> > very egalitarian: something to offend everyone. > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Is this spam? > http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 28 Nov 2004 20:21 GMT > Andrew...wake up... Ed...I am awake...
> in a capitalistic society, money IS lord. There are many lords even in a capitalistic society. You have free will to choose whom/what to worship.
> While democrats rail against republicans moneycentric views, some of the > richest politicians are democrats. Being blessed with affluence does not necessarily mean money is the lord in your life.
> Steven stated quite eloquently the current state of affairs.... ... as he sees it from his godless world view. The mouth can still be eloquent though the eye is jaundiced.
> Ed May God bless you on this Lord's day, dear Ed whom I love, in Christ's holy name.
Servant to the humblest person in the universe,
Andrew
-- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/
** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48
Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
Bob (this one) - 28 Nov 2004 19:08 GMT >>very egalitarian: something to offend everyone. >> >>zee > > Such is Steve's world where money is lord. Oh, look, The fuckwit made another judgement...
Bob
Happy Dog - 29 Nov 2004 00:41 GMT "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com>
>> very egalitarian: something to offend everyone. >> >> zee > > Such is Steve's world where money is lord. Unlike your world, ruled by a bastard god on a stick who is always asking for pocket change from his followers. Idiot.
moo
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 29 Nov 2004 01:47 GMT > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com> > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Unlike your world, ruled by a bastard god on a stick who is always asking > for pocket change from his followers. Sorry my rejection of your lord offends you.
> Idiot. Ouch. You may have at the other cheek.
> moo It is written in Ephesians 2:
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
All is a waste of time until you find the way to eternal life with the Creator of the universe. When you do, there is no waste of time because there will be an infinite amount of it. Walking about aimlessly thinking it is *your* time, *your* money, *your* lot, *your* labor, *your* profit, and *your* power that you are using is tantamount to self-worship.
For Christ lights up the way through John 14:
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me..."
This bring us back again to the following very simple decision tree for the untruthful folks such as yourself, neighbor, who have chosen to walk in the "dark":
(1) Accept Christ. Risk: Nothing.
Benefits: Salvation, purposeful life, eternal life, unimaginable riches in God's eternal kingdom.
(2) Reject Christ. Risk: Eternal separation from God. Eternal torment of your soul by satan.
Benefits: Nothing.
Again, one has to conclude that those (ie you, Carey, Steve, Bob, Zee, Frank, Hawki, Rolando, Don et al) who would reject Christ have not thought out their decision *logically*.
Would suggest you cast a glance at Bob Pastorio as a special example of untruthfully eloquent self-worship (BTW, Bob remains in my prayers out of Christian love) who is being driven to madness by my ignoring him (http://makeashorterlink.com/?V29A236C9 and more recently http://makeashorterlink.com/?V25D312E9). All this power belongs to God who has judged Bob Pastorio with His Word (http://makeashorterlink.com/?G33F51E69). All praises to Him, Whom I love with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength :-)
You will be in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Christ's holy name.
May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that you too will escape satan's rule and torment of your soul after you die.
Please do consider the following as your logic should dictate before it is too late:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
(Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments, the 2 arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the 2PD Approach. Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make His presence known here on Usenet :-)
Servant to the humblest person in the universe,
Andrew
-- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/
** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48
Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
Happy Dog - 29 Nov 2004 01:48 GMT "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com>
>> > Such is Steve's world where money is lord. >> >> Unlike your world, ruled by a bastard god on a stick who is always asking >> for pocket change from his followers. > > Sorry my rejection of your lord offends you. Christ-besotted lunatic. Shaddup!
< snip almost 500 lines of ranting >
This, however, is adorable:
> (Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is > the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 2PD Approach. Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make His > presence known here on Usenet :-) I'll bet that Numerology is an abomination to fundie twits. But that doesn't stop you from compulsively engaging in it.
le moo
Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com - 29 Nov 2004 02:11 GMT > very egalitarian: something to offend everyone. > > zee COMMENT:
Well, as Bertrand Russell said, "Whoever first coined the phrase, 'The Naked Truth' had perceived an important connection. Nakedness is shocking to all right-minded people, and so is truth."
Not being politically correct is generally is the penalty for thinking for yourself. If you don't want to offend anybody, don't think at all. Or if you feel risqué, you can share in the small heresy of your local heretical group, which may have some part of the truth, but otherwise, try to blend in. Hey, we all do it. Nobody really wants to be Giordano Bruno all the time.
I'm sure the idea that humans are deluxe-model chimpanzees, who spend most of our time putting our big brains into the service of baboon politics, is offensive to many. But it's a pretty good description of the world. Our large brains were not developed for doing science. Science is historically very, very recent, far too recent for it to have any bearing on the evolution of humans. Instead, it seems likely that our large brains are generally for the purpose of tracking game, running, throwing stuff accurately, or working in teams. Or for finding hidden feces, figuring out who's not getting fed, looking for hidden food items and hidden poisons, and figuring out who's cheating at sex or status games. For finding the mate with the best resources. And especially, for finding somebody to blame for problems (witch-finding, scapegoating). All else is add-on, sort of the way you can use a computer designed to predict the weather, to play solitaire or Doom.
If you go to the DVD store or the magazine racks, or turn on TV to see what most people spend their time doing, you will see that (absent hunger-drive and food finding) we still spend almost all of our time doing things that our brains were evolved to do, and still do best. Men want to look at naked women, or else watch "action," which means other man going fast and shooting off missiles of various kinds, and team-working to compete or hunt. That's sports. Women want to watch social drama, which generally means detection of cheating at social and status games. And everybody loves a good witch-hunt, preferably followed by a good old fashioned public punishment. Crime shows, both fictional, and "real" (cold case files, court TV) are especially popular with all audiences of both sexes, since they combine both types of return. As also weakest link and survival shows. Daytime soap opera for women is not about physics, and it's not about today's newest aircraft. Women generally don't give a damn about black-and-white wars with planes and artillery. And Spike TV for men doesn't show shows whose main motivating plot is the burning question of who's the father of Veronica's baby.
Nature and science and Discovery Channel type stuff is a very, very distant last to all the rest. And even there, if you want to sell science to mass audiences you need to package it with the other stuff our brains really want. So we have THE MOST poisonous animals! Starting with #!0! And going to #9, with reasons why it's worse than #10, but not as bad as #8! That's how to interest humans. Danger, competition, poisons, ranking, finding out hidden nasty secrets. Animal Cops for women. And for men, the baddest monster machines and fastest planes. If you start talking about the work of friction done by a block weighing so many Newtons sliding on an inclined plane at 10 degrees at constant velocity or so and so, you're going to get hit with the channel change button before you get to the first calculation. Yet if you think anybody designs one of those monster airplanes without knowing this stuff, think again.
The only main network TV show that is for a main audience and is even marginally about science and its methods these days, is ---- CSI. Think about that for a minute. CSI is causing mass changes in college science because of all the people who want to be crime scene investigators. Somebody has suggested that we need TV shows that will do for other aspects of science (geology, astronomy, physics, etc) what CSI has done for investigative sciences. But that's all to miss the point. Our brains are built for CSI gamesthe science is just dressing for the basic detective story, just as it was in Sherlock Holmes' day. It's not gunna work for geology or astronomy or particle physics. It might work for physiology if you fold it in with detection, at the point where medicine meets social problems. But then you'd have E.R.
It's amazing that we, as a species, have ever developed any science at all! Even so, it hasn't been very fast, and a lot of it has been in the service of warfare (teamwork, killing, missiles, poisons!), which is what really interests us. The Manhattan Project didn't get all that money to find out about nature, and the race to the moon was more cold war than it was exploration (there's a reason we haven't been back). Even now, politicians spend most of our money on wars and medical care and looking for hidden poisons in foods, drugs or environment, despite the fact that the wars are sometimes not necessary (how ever much the population enjoys them as circus), and the medical care and environmentalism and drug development are all made terrifically inefficient by the fact that we still hardly know what we're doing. Never mind. We love war. We're obsessed with food and with poisons and crimes and cheating. We've got to have our fix now, and if it means eating our seed-corn, then fine.
So progress in science continues to be relatively slow, because it's all piggybacked on other interests and other brain systems. That a brain developed for throwing rocks could instead manipulate symbols and invent the calculusit's amazing. That a brain developed for finding hidden food or dirt might instead pick out the first dinosaur tooth from a hole in the middle of nowhere, or find and classify the first variable stars on routine photographsthat's fantastic. And none of it, even so, would be preserved if we hadn't invented *writing* as a proxy for human memory, so that this fragile and broadly uninteresting culture of science could survive the deaths of the comparatively few people who hold it dear.
The human race wants the fruits of science (medicine, technology, good education, cheap food and housing and entertainment) even as it continues to mostly be interested in the usual other stuff (wars and soap opera), and to spend money and effort on them instead But the science, childish as it is compared to nature, is still the most precious thing we have (thanks for that last thought, Dr. Einstein). Because it's the route to everything else we want. If only most of us humans knew it.
SBH
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