Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / General / November 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

drugs that don't kill: a moral issue

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
outrider - 27 Nov 2004 20:38 GMT
You Want a Moral Issue? How about Drugs that Don't Kill?

Author: Arianna Huffington
Published on Nov 24, 2004, 08:12

http://www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/printer_15610.shtml

"And if any of this sounds familiar, it should. It's certainly giving
me a profound sense of drug company deja vu, with the tragic stories of
Baycol, Rezulin and Duract still fresh in my mind. How many times do we
have to travel down this deadly path - the side of the road littered
with bodies and the empty containers of drugs that were approved
despite serious questions, and left on the market despite growing
evidence of innocent lives being lost?"
Steve Harris  sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com - 28 Nov 2004 04:21 GMT
> You Want a Moral Issue? How about Drugs that Don't Kill?
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> despite serious questions, and left on the market despite growing
> evidence of innocent lives being lost?"

COMMENT:

Yo, Arianna.  Believe or not, not all the bad things in the world are
due to liberal or conservative conspiracies, or the selfishness of
people with lots of money (not high on your personal list of evils, I
know), or even to human error.

No, here's a shock for you: many of the world's problems are due to
the fact that the problems themselves are inherently difficult. The
difficulty of designing totally safe pharmaceuticals, for example, is
related to the complexity of physiology, and physiology is fiendishly
complex. And it's also related to the extreme difficulty and expense
and aggravation of doing controlled animal and then human trials. If
you've never studied advanced physiology or written a scientific paper
or done a human or animal drug trial, you'll just have to take the
word of those of us who have. Sorry. Social problems are only small
subset of the problems inherent in the human condition.

Now, with enough money, we could go faster and do better.  But the
government and pharm industry together only spend about $40 billion or
maybe (at the outside) $50 billion a year in the US on biomedical
research. The Iraq war was equal to 10 years of that.

Of course, there's a limit on how fast science can find things out or
engineer things out, no matter how much money it's given. But we're so
far away from that limit (which was something like the speed of the
Manhattan Project or the 60's race to the moon), that we can forget
it. Medical science is now hobbled by lack of research money. It would
be entirely possible to double the pace of medical knowledge gained,
and cram 20 years of research into 10 years, if we had 20 years' worth
of money to do it, instead of 10. And we could do it, if we wanted to.
But we don't want to. Not really. It's not nearly as fun as blowing
people up, or finding bad guys. You remember Bush started out in
office planning to double the NIH budget. But his heart wasn't really
in it. Only when it came to stuff like baseball clubs and jets, did
Bush's heart really get pumping. Which is to say, he's a typical human
male.

We all act as though we're immortal until we get sick, and then we
want the cure now!  And when we don't get it, we look for a witch to
blame, because witch-hunting is something the human brain does
naturally. Certainly it naturally sucks at doing science; much
unnatural training is required for that. But gossiping and
witch-finding and crime-solving and conspiracy-theories -- that really
gets the heart going. I see it has yours going, when the science was
really boring!  Which is to you say, you're a typical human female.

So forget it. We're destined to spend our national money finding
witches and blowing stuff up, because that's what our brains do best.
It's going to take science to keep us from dying of disease and age,
but we're not so good at that. So it's gunna hurt when you personally
get old, because the stuff you want can't be gotten by killing
somebody (the male tack), or by finding somebody to blame for why it
doesn't exist (the female tack). It can only be gotten by years of
patient scientific research. Which is *boring* compared with
Republican macho bombs and Democratic mommy-liberal blame-games.

Lots of luck to you. You probably think that when you need advanced
medicine, like stem cell transplants or something, you'll be able to
buy it at some extravagant price, immediately, off the shelf. But
you're wrong. Politics sometimes works that way. Nature generally
doesn't.

SBH
Howard McCollister - 28 Nov 2004 05:15 GMT
"Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message

> Now, with enough money, we could go faster and do better.

> Of course, there's a limit on how fast science can find things out or
> engineer things out, no matter how much money it's given. But we're so
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of money to do it, instead of 10. And we could do it, if we wanted to.
> But we don't want to. Not really.

Jeez, this is so true that it brings a little tear to my eye.......

HMc
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 28 Nov 2004 12:41 GMT
> "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
> message
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> HMc

There is only sadness in Steve's world where money is lord, no truth.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
Bob (this one) - 28 Nov 2004 19:10 GMT
>>"Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>>message
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> There is only sadness in Steve's world where money is lord, no truth.

Give it a rest, Chung. You're so obviously deranged that your comments
serve no purpose except to document it.

You've already posted this comment once today. Can you believe in your
twisted view that repeating it makes it more true?

Meds. You need meds.

Bob
Steve Harris  sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com - 29 Nov 2004 02:19 GMT
> > "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
> > message
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> There is only sadness in Steve's world where money is lord, no truth.

COMMENT:

Ahem. What would you know about truth, Chung?  You're a perfect living
breathing example of the reality of computer viruses for the human
brain. You've been infected with one, and you've got it bad. It's
taken you over, and now it walks you around and controls all your
actions. There is no Norton anti-virus for it. Now, all you can do is
sit there and spew spam and magical thinking, and you're a complete
waste of space, and probably will be for life. You might just as well
be chanting "Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna."

That exodus of friends, family, patients, coworkers, etc., away from
you?  They'd re-boot you if they could. But they can't. So they're
headed for the tall timber, just as if you were dead and were emitting
a bad smell. Because mentally, you actually *are* dead. And the smell
is the stench of death of what was once a living mind, and is now a
mass of wriggling mental parasitic roundworms. Yuck!

SBH
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 29 Nov 2004 13:39 GMT
> > > "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
> > > message
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Ahem. What would you know about truth, Chung?

What I discern.

> You're a perfect living
> breathing example of the reality of computer viruses for the human
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> sit there and spew spam and magical thinking, and you're a complete
> waste of space, and probably will be for life.

Sorry my being openly Christian bothers you.

> You might just as well
> be chanting "Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna."

Sorry folks being open about their beliefs bother you.


> That exodus of friends, family, patients, coworkers, etc., away from
> you?

I see no exodus here.

> They'd re-boot you if they could. But they can't.

Sorry my being openly Christian continues to bother you.

> So they're
> headed for the tall timber, just as if you were dead and were emitting
> a bad smell. Because mentally, you actually *are* dead. And the smell
> is the stench of death of what was once a living mind, and is now a
> mass of wriggling mental parasitic roundworms. Yuck!

It remains your informed choice to reject Christ (shrug).  My good
work here is to inform you.  Let it not ever be said you were not so
informed.

> SBH

It is written in Ephesians 2:

10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good
works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

All is a waste of time until you find the way to eternal life with the
Creator of the universe.  When you do, there is no waste of time
because there will be an infinite amount of it.  Walking about
aimlessly thinking it is *your* time, *your* money, *your* lot, *your*
labor, *your* profit, and *your* power that you are using is
tantamount to self-worship.

For Christ lights up the way through John 14:

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
comes to the Father except through me..."

This bring us back again to the following very simple decision tree
for the untruthful folks such as yourself, Steve, who have chosen to
walk in the "dark":

(1) Accept Christ.
Risk: Nothing.

Benefits: Salvation, purposeful life, eternal life, unimaginable
riches in God's eternal kingdom.

(2) Reject Christ.
Risk: Eternal separation from God.  Eternal torment of your soul by
satan.

Benefits: Nothing.

Again, one has to conclude that those (ie you, Carey, Bob, Zee, Frank,
Hawki, Rolando, Don et al) who would reject Christ have not thought
out their decision *logically*.

Would suggest you cast a glance at Bob Pastorio as a special example
of untruthfully eloquent self-worship (BTW, Bob remains in my prayers
out of Christian love) who is being driven to madness by my ignoring
him (http://makeashorterlink.com/?V29A236C9 and more recently
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V25D312E9).  All this power belongs to
God who has judged Bob Pastorio with His Word
(http://makeashorterlink.com/?G33F51E69). All praises to Him, Whom I
love with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength :-)

You will be in my prayers, dear Steve whom I love, in Christ's holy
name.

May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so
that you too will escape satan's rule and torment of your soul after
you die.

Please do consider the following as your logic should dictate before
it is too late:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

(Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He
is the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2
which is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments,
the 2 arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger
sign of the Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and
satan], and the 2PD Approach.  Let it not ever be written that Christ
did not make His presence known here on Usenet :-)

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
outrider - 28 Nov 2004 10:36 GMT
very egalitarian: something to offend everyone.

zee
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 28 Nov 2004 12:41 GMT
> very egalitarian: something to offend everyone.
>
> zee

Such is Steve's world where money is lord.

May God bless you on this Lord's day, dear Zee whom I love, in Christ's
holy name.


Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
Ed Mathes - 28 Nov 2004 13:46 GMT
Andrew...wake up...in a capitalistic society, money IS lord.

While democrats rail against republicans moneycentric views, some of the
richest politicians are democrats.

Steven stated quite eloquently the current state of affairs....

Ed

> > very egalitarian: something to offend everyone.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Is this spam?
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 28 Nov 2004 20:21 GMT
> Andrew...wake up...

Ed...I am awake...

> in a capitalistic society, money IS lord.

There are many lords even in a capitalistic society.  You have free
will to choose whom/what to worship.


> While democrats rail against republicans moneycentric views, some of the
> richest politicians are democrats.

Being blessed with affluence does not necessarily mean money is the
lord in your life.

> Steven stated quite eloquently the current state of affairs....

... as he sees it from his godless world view.  The mouth can still be
eloquent though the eye is jaundiced.

> Ed

May God bless you on this Lord's day, dear Ed whom I love, in Christ's
holy name.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
Bob (this one) - 28 Nov 2004 19:08 GMT
>>very egalitarian: something to offend everyone.
>>
>>zee
>
> Such is Steve's world where money is lord.

Oh, look, The fuckwit made another judgement...

Bob
Happy Dog - 29 Nov 2004 00:41 GMT
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com>

>> very egalitarian: something to offend everyone.
>>
>> zee
>
> Such is Steve's world where money is lord.

Unlike your world, ruled by a bastard god on a stick who is always asking
for pocket change from his followers.  Idiot.

moo
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 29 Nov 2004 01:47 GMT
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com>
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Unlike your world, ruled by a bastard god on a stick who is always asking
> for pocket change from his followers.

Sorry my rejection of your lord offends you.  

>  Idiot.

Ouch.  You may have at the other cheek.

> moo

It is written in Ephesians 2:

10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good
works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

All is a waste of time until you find the way to eternal life with the
Creator of the universe.  When you do, there is no waste of time because
there will be an infinite amount of it.  Walking about aimlessly
thinking it is *your* time, *your* money, *your* lot, *your* labor,
*your* profit, and *your* power that you are using is tantamount to
self-worship.

For Christ lights up the way through John 14:

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes
to the Father except through me..."

This bring us back again to the following very simple decision tree for
the untruthful folks such as yourself, neighbor, who have chosen to walk
in the "dark":

(1) Accept Christ.
Risk: Nothing.

Benefits: Salvation, purposeful life, eternal life, unimaginable riches
in God's eternal kingdom.

(2) Reject Christ.
Risk: Eternal separation from God.  Eternal torment of your soul by
satan.

Benefits: Nothing.

Again, one has to conclude that those (ie you, Carey, Steve, Bob, Zee,
Frank, Hawki, Rolando, Don et al) who would reject Christ have not
thought out their decision *logically*.

Would suggest you cast a glance at Bob Pastorio as a special example of
untruthfully eloquent self-worship (BTW, Bob remains in my prayers out
of Christian love) who is being driven to madness by my ignoring him
(http://makeashorterlink.com/?V29A236C9 and more recently
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V25D312E9).  All this power belongs to God
who has judged Bob Pastorio with His Word
(http://makeashorterlink.com/?G33F51E69). All praises to Him, Whom I
love with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength :-)

You will be in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Christ's holy
name.

May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that
you too will escape satan's rule and torment of your soul after you die.

Please do consider the following as your logic should dictate before it
is too late:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

(Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is
the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which
is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments, the 2
arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the
Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the
2PD Approach.  Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make His
presence known here on Usenet :-)

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
Happy Dog - 29 Nov 2004 01:48 GMT
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com>
>> > Such is Steve's world where money is lord.
>>
>> Unlike your world, ruled by a bastard god on a stick who is always asking
>> for pocket change from his followers.
>
> Sorry my rejection of your lord offends you.

Christ-besotted lunatic.  Shaddup!

< snip almost 500 lines of ranting >

This, however, is adorable:

> (Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is
> the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 2PD Approach.  Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make His
> presence known here on Usenet :-)

I'll bet that Numerology is an abomination to fundie twits.  But that
doesn't stop you from compulsively engaging in it.

le moo
Steve Harris  sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com - 29 Nov 2004 02:11 GMT
> very egalitarian: something to offend everyone.
>
> zee

COMMENT:

Well, as Bertrand Russell said, "Whoever first coined the phrase, 'The
Naked Truth' had perceived an important connection. Nakedness is
shocking to all right-minded people, and so is truth."

Not being politically correct is generally is the penalty for thinking
for yourself. If you don't want to offend anybody, don't think at all.
Or if you feel risqué, you can share in the small heresy of your local
heretical group, which may have some part of the truth, but otherwise,
try to blend in. Hey, we all do it. Nobody really wants to be Giordano
Bruno all the time.

I'm sure the idea that humans are deluxe-model chimpanzees, who spend
most of our time putting our big brains into the service of baboon
politics, is offensive to many. But it's a pretty good description of
the world. Our large brains were not developed for doing science.
Science is historically very, very recent, far too recent for it to
have any bearing on the evolution of humans. Instead, it seems likely
that our large brains are generally for the purpose of tracking game,
running, throwing stuff accurately, or working in teams. Or for
finding hidden feces, figuring out who's not getting fed, looking for
hidden food items and hidden poisons, and figuring out who's cheating
at sex or status games. For finding the mate with the best resources.
And especially, for finding somebody to blame for problems
(witch-finding, scapegoating). All else is add-on, sort of the way you
can use a computer designed to predict the weather, to play solitaire
or Doom.

If you go to the DVD store or the magazine racks, or turn on TV to see
what most people spend their time doing, you will see that (absent
hunger-drive and food finding) we still spend almost all of our time
doing things that our brains were evolved to do, and still do best.
Men want to look at naked women, or else watch "action," which means
other man going fast and shooting off missiles of various kinds, and
team-working to compete or hunt. That's sports. Women want to watch
social drama, which generally means detection of cheating at social
and status games. And everybody loves a good witch-hunt, preferably
followed by a good old fashioned public punishment. Crime shows, both
fictional, and "real" (cold case files, court TV) are especially
popular with all audiences of both sexes, since they combine both
types of return. As also weakest link and survival shows. Daytime soap
opera for women is not about physics, and it's not about today's
newest aircraft. Women generally don't give a damn about
black-and-white wars with planes and artillery. And Spike TV for men
doesn't show shows whose main motivating plot is the burning question
of who's the father of Veronica's baby.

Nature and science and Discovery Channel type stuff is a very, very
distant last to all the rest. And even there, if you want to sell
science to mass audiences you need to package it with the other stuff
our brains really want. So we have THE MOST poisonous animals!
Starting with #!0!  And going to #9, with reasons why it's worse than
#10, but not as bad as #8!  That's how to interest humans. Danger,
competition, poisons, ranking, finding out hidden nasty secrets.
Animal Cops for women. And for men, the baddest monster machines and
fastest planes.  If you start talking about the work of friction done
by a block weighing so many Newtons sliding on an inclined plane at 10
degrees at constant velocity or so and so, you're going to get hit
with the channel change button before you get to the first
calculation. Yet if you think anybody designs one of those monster
airplanes without knowing this stuff, think again.

The only main network TV show that is for a main audience and is even
marginally about science and its methods these days, is ---- CSI.
Think about that for a minute. CSI is causing mass changes in college
science because of all the people who want to be crime scene
investigators. Somebody has suggested that we need TV shows that will
do for other aspects of science (geology, astronomy, physics, etc)
what CSI has done for investigative sciences. But that's all to miss
the point. Our brains are built for CSI games—the science is just
dressing for the basic detective story, just as it was in Sherlock
Holmes' day. It's not gunna work for geology or astronomy or particle
physics. It might work for physiology if you fold it in with
detection, at the point where medicine meets social problems. But then
you'd have E.R.

It's amazing that we, as a species, have ever developed any science at
all! Even so, it hasn't been very fast, and a lot of it has been in
the service of warfare (teamwork, killing, missiles, poisons!), which
is what really interests us.  The Manhattan Project didn't get all
that money to find out about nature, and the race to the moon was more
cold war than it was exploration (there's a reason we haven't been
back). Even now, politicians spend most of our money on wars and
medical care and looking for hidden poisons in foods, drugs or
environment, despite the fact that the wars are sometimes not
necessary (how ever much the population enjoys them as circus), and
the medical care and environmentalism and drug development are all
made terrifically inefficient by the fact that we still hardly know
what we're doing. Never mind. We love war. We're obsessed with food
and with poisons and crimes and cheating.  We've got to have our fix
now, and if it means eating our seed-corn, then fine.

So progress in science continues to be relatively slow, because it's
all piggybacked on other interests and other brain systems. That a
brain developed for throwing rocks could instead manipulate symbols
and invent the calculus—it's amazing. That a brain developed for
finding hidden food or dirt might instead pick out the first dinosaur
tooth from a hole in the middle of nowhere, or find and classify the
first variable stars on routine photographs—that's fantastic. And none
of it, even so, would be preserved if we hadn't invented *writing* as
a proxy for human memory, so that this fragile and broadly
uninteresting culture of science could survive the deaths of the
comparatively few people who hold it dear.

The human race wants the fruits of science (medicine, technology, good
education, cheap food and housing and entertainment) even as it
continues to mostly be interested in the usual other stuff (wars and
soap opera), and to spend money and effort on them instead  But the
science, childish as it is compared to nature, is still the most
precious thing we have (thanks for that last thought, Dr. Einstein).
Because it's the route to everything else we want. If only most of us
humans knew it.

SBH

Rate this thread:






 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.