Medical Forum / General / General / November 2004
Yay, vaccines!
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PF Riley - 05 Nov 2004 08:15 GMT CDC: Hepatitis B Down 89 Percent in Kids [in the U.S.]
Thu Nov 4, 3:11 PM ET Health - AP
ATLANTA - Cases of hepatitis B among children and teenagers have dropped by almost 90 percent in the past decade, thanks to a vaccination program against the virus, the government said Thursday.
A total of 13,829 youngsters had hepatitis B in the United States between 1990 and 2002, the period of the study. The rate for that group dropped from 3.03 cases per 100,000 people in 1990 to 0.34 per 100,000 in 2002, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (news - web sites) said.
A government recommendation that all infants get hepatitis B vaccinations was put in place in 1991. The program was expanded in 1995 to 11- and 12-year-olds and in 1999 to all children.
The hepatitis B attacks the liver. It can cause scarring of the liver, liver cancer, liver failure and death. The virus can be transmitted by casual contact with blood or other body fluids, as well as through sex or shared needles, or from mother to baby during birth.
Mark - 05 Nov 2004 18:52 GMT > CDC: Hepatitis B Down 89 Percent in Kids [in the U.S.] > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > casual contact with blood or other body fluids, as well as through sex > or shared needles, or from mother to baby during birth. But isn't this drop due to better hygeine? Space aliens? Wishful thinking? I mean, it *can't* be that a vaccination program actually works, can it?
Mark, MD (tongue-in-cheek)
Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com - 05 Nov 2004 22:56 GMT Second your comments.
I hope this sticks in the craw of all those yahoos who said mass Hep B vaccination of children wouldn't do any good, because it's mostly sexually transmitted and children don't have sex.
The truth is that children hit their teens and have sex before anybody's ready for them to, as you see from the unplanned parenthood figures. You can't surgically implant them with little condomes in childhood, but you can at least vaccinate them against Hep B. And it does work. It also protects from infection by blood spatter and smear, something that kids scraping themselves do, all too often.
The critics said it wouldn't do any good, but they were wrong. We have a genuine chance to totally wipe Hep B out, like smallpox.
SBH
> CDC: Hepatitis B Down 89 Percent in Kids [in the U.S.] > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > casual contact with blood or other body fluids, as well as through sex > or shared needles, or from mother to baby during birth. Steven Bornfeld - 06 Nov 2004 00:09 GMT Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com wrote:
> Second your comments. > > I hope this sticks in the craw of all those yahoos who said mass Hep B > vaccination of children wouldn't do any good, because it's mostly > sexually transmitted and children don't have sex. I don't expect it will faze them a bit. What evidence not supporting their position ever has?
Steve
> The truth is that children hit their teens and have sex before > anybody's ready for them to, as you see from the unplanned parenthood [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >>casual contact with blood or other body fluids, as well as through sex >>or shared needles, or from mother to baby during birth. Orac - 06 Nov 2004 00:57 GMT > Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com wrote: > > Second your comments. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't expect it will faze them a bit. What evidence not supporting > their position ever has? Precisely. They'll do one of two things: dismiss it (without explaining why or producing evidence why it should be dismissed) or ignore it.
 Signature Orac |"I am not interested in trying to compensate | for your amazing lack of observation." | | Orac
Mark Probert - 06 Nov 2004 02:26 GMT > > Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com wrote: > > > Second your comments. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Precisely. They'll do one of two things: dismiss it (without explaining > why or producing evidence why it should be dismissed) or ignore it. #3: They will claim it is fabricated, etc. in some manner to sell more vaccine.
00doc - 06 Nov 2004 03:43 GMT >>> Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com wrote: >>>> Second your comments. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > to sell more > vaccine. Nah- Mark had it right - they will just come up with other (implausible) theories. I roting for the one that says it was not actually the vaccination of kids that did it but of homosexual child abusers.
 Signature 00doc
Orac - 07 Nov 2004 04:09 GMT > > > Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com wrote: > > > > Second your comments. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > #3: They will claim it is fabricated, etc. in some manner to sell more > vaccine. Yes, that is another possibility...
 Signature Orac |"I am not interested in trying to compensate | for your amazing lack of observation." | | Orac
john - 06 Nov 2004 22:14 GMT "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> The critics said it wouldn't do any good, but they were wrong. We have > a genuine chance to totally wipe Hep B out, like smallpox. COMMENT You have forgotten the huge amount of vaccine disease you moron, now the main cause of autism. That is 500,000 UK for autistic spectrum disorders, 2 mill say in US? With over 90% caused by vaccines, before you factor in the epidemic of vaccine asthma, diabetes, ADD...
like smallpox?
"If people are worried about endemic smallpox, it disappeared from this country not because of our mass herd immunity. It disappeared because of our economic development. And that's why it disappeared from Europe and many other countries, and it will not be sustained here, even if there were several importations, I'm sure. It's not from universal vaccination."----Dr. Mack
get the facts here http://www.whale.to/vaccines/smallpox.html not lies from some pharma hand out
doesn't say much about having confidence in what you say
Ed Mathes - 06 Nov 2004 22:47 GMT Wow...Dr.Mack, are you a real MD or just someone using the title?
It's nice to know that the more time passes, the more things stay the same.
So, you blame vaccine for autism, diabetes, asthma.....what else?
BTW, Smallpox was eradicated due to the efforts of WHO, mass vaccination, and an aggressive containment plan for outbreaks. It didn't "burn itself out" as you say.
As for not sustaining itself here.....do you really believe an outbreak wouldn't be sustained? Conjecture or opinion based on fact?
I really don't want to find out (although I did get a smallpox booster last year) as my kids aren't immune.
Ed
> "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in > message [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > doesn't say much about having confidence in what you say Mark Probert - 07 Nov 2004 15:04 GMT John is quoting Dr. mack who by his own admission, in 2002, had been out of the smallpox area for thrity years. His paper on smallpox was written in 1972.
John lies by ommission.
> Wow...Dr.Mack, are you a real MD or just someone using the title? > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > > > doesn't say much about having confidence in what you say john - 08 Nov 2004 08:09 GMT Dr mack is your LEADING smallpox expert, you moron http://www.whale.to/a/mack.html
a vaccinators expert in other words, speaking at a CDC meeting!
> Wow...Dr.Mack, are you a real MD or just someone using the title? > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > > > doesn't say much about having confidence in what you say Ed Mathes - 08 Nov 2004 12:18 GMT Like everyone else who cannot "prove" a point, you revert to name-calling.
I have no idea who Dr. Mack is. The paper you cite was written in 1972....
Dr. Mack was invited to present at the ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES meeting in 2002. By his own admission, he had been "out of the game" for 40 years. Does that make him less an "expert"? No.
A few excerpts from his presentation in 2002:
"I'll try and skip data slides because you've seen many of them already. This just reiterates the effectiveness of past vaccination, and in this case it demonstrates that the severity of disease was affected"
"The key to any introduction would be, as has been mentioned, surveillance. I think initial recognition would be the most important single factor. Identification and follow-up of contacts, obviously. Isolation of known and probable cases, preventing admission to hospitals and opening separate facilities, and then vaccination of likely contacts."
"I would like to think of the fire-fighting as a model for how to deal with a smallpox outbreak. People might be prepared in every locality, and then be gathered together when necessary. The more public exposure, the more people are needed, for obvious reasons. Availability of protected personnel to me is vastly important, and that would mean field epidemiologists, lab people and care providers, designated people. And I would suggest that older and foreign MD's who were previously vaccinated ought to be given priority. Multi-locality Federal cooperation is really advantageous."
Smallpox disappeared, again, because of aggressive containment and vaccination.
What I take away from this paper is, Dr. Mack believes that any terrorist introduced smallpox outbreak would be small, with fewer deaths than would be expected. He proposes watching and containing outbreaks, the "fire-fighting" model rather than mass vaccination....wait for the fire, prepare for the fire, but don't institute preventive measures.
He doesn't mention in his talk the consequences of an infected person leaving the local area and traveling elsewhere (losing containment). Nor does he discuss genetically engineered smallpox strains...which we know exist. We have no idea how these strains will act if introduced into a population. And we can't immunize against them.
Without a pool of vaccinated persons to care for the ill, vaccination of the population in the geographic area of the outbreak, containment will fail. Why? because it is extremely difficult to physically contain or restrict movement of people, furthering spread beyond local geographic.
I don't disagree with the "fire-fighting" approach. It is the same used to control outbreaks in the 1950's and 60's.
I also agree that recognition is the single most important factor. Medical personnel who have never seen smallpox might not recognize it right away.
As for "burn out"....all epidemics eventually end. At what cost in lives and disability?
As for being a moron.....you still haven't "proven" vaccine as a cause for autism, diabetes, asthma, etc. And your expert (Dr.Mack) attests to the effectiveness of vaccination.
Ed
> Dr mack is your LEADING smallpox expert, you moron > http://www.whale.to/a/mack.html [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > > > > > doesn't say much about having confidence in what you say Jeff - 07 Nov 2004 03:36 GMT > "Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in > message [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You have forgotten the huge amount of vaccine disease you moron, now the > main cause of autism. No. There is nothing here to forget. Study after study has shown that vaccines are not the cause of the rise in autism rates, and, if vaccines cause any cases of autism, they caused very, very few.
> That is 500,000 UK for autistic spectrum disorders, 2 > mill say in US? More accurate numbers of autism cases caused by vaccines (US + UK, combined): 0.
> With over 90% caused by vaccines, before you factor in the > epidemic of vaccine asthma, diabetes, ADD... Cases of asthma, diabetes and ADD caused by vaccines, combined: 0.
> like smallpox? Gee, cases of smallpox caused by vaccines: 0.
> "If people are worried about endemic smallpox, it disappeared from this > country not because of our mass herd immunity. It disappeared because of > our economic development. And that's why it disappeared from Europe and > many other countries, and it will not be sustained here, even if there were > several importations, I'm sure. It's not from universal > vaccination."----Dr. Mack Is that why it disappeared from extremely poor countries in Africa and Asia too? Gee, buy a brain someplace, so you can analyze and understand the facts.
> get the facts here http://www.whale.to/vaccines/smallpox.html not lies from > some pharma hand out Don't go that site. The person who writes it is such an idiot she doesn't put her name on it. Can't blame her. The site is the laughign stock of the scintific world and she clearly doesn't have a clue about science, medicines or vaccines.
> doesn't say much about having confidence in what you say No, the whale to site doesn't deserve much confidence.
Jeff
john - 06 Nov 2004 22:08 GMT More vax deaths & vaccine disease to treat http://www.whale.to/vaccine/hepatitis.html
"The total 24,775 VAERS hepatitis B reports from July 1990 to October 31, 1998 show 439 deaths and 9673 serious reactions involving emergency room visits, hospitalization, disablement or death. Therefore, more than one third of total reports were serious events. 17,497 of those total reports were for hepatitis B vaccine only, the remainder were vaccine cocktails where hepatitis B was administered along with DPT, HIB, IPV, OPV, etc."--Michael Belkin MICHAEL BELKIN'S WRITTEN TESTIMONY TO CONGRESS
> CDC: Hepatitis B Down 89 Percent in Kids [in the U.S.] > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > casual contact with blood or other body fluids, as well as through sex > or shared needles, or from mother to baby during birth. Jeff - 07 Nov 2004 03:38 GMT > More vax deaths & vaccine disease to treat > http://www.whale.to/vaccine/hepatitis.html > > "The total 24,775 VAERS hepatitis B reports from July 1990 to October 31, > 1998 show 439 deaths and 9673 serious reactions involving emergency room > visits, hospitalization, disablement or death. Wrong. It shows those numbers of adverse EVENTS, not reactions. The vast majority of those events are just coincidence.
> Therefore, more than one > third of total reports were serious events. 17,497 of those total reports > were for hepatitis B vaccine only, the remainder were vaccine cocktails > where hepatitis B was administered along with DPT, HIB, IPV, OPV, > etc."--Michael Belkin MICHAEL BELKIN'S WRITTEN TESTIMONY TO CONGRESS And the majority of those people did other things like, eat, sleep, get exposed to infections, etc.
Vaccines were not the only things happening to those people around the time they got vaccinated.
Jeff
> > CDC: Hepatitis B Down 89 Percent in Kids [in the U.S.] > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > casual contact with blood or other body fluids, as well as through sex > > or shared needles, or from mother to baby during birth.
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