Medical Forum / General / General / August 2004
Canadian Nurses coming to the US
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Robert - 16 Aug 2004 04:54 GMT 10% of all graduating Canadian nurses are voting with their feet. It is always the last resort and only resort.
APRIL 2004 Sources:50 Plus Magazine and Canadian Press
It's been a year now since the outbreak of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome. SARS is a serious infectious disease of the respiratory system. It is a severe form of pneumonia, and it continues to be a problem worldwide.In a judicial commission conducted November17, 2003, nursing representatives complained that confusion, chaos and communication breakdowns prevailed in Toronto hospitals during the SARS crisis last spring.........
In 1990, 10,000 RN's graduated from Canadian nursing schools. In 1991, the provinces began cutting back on the number of nursing school spaces in an effort to save health-care dollars.In 2002, because of the limits placed on enrolment, only about 5,000 went on to become Registered Nurses. On top of this, hospitals instituted a hiring freeze. Full- time positions became scarce, and more and more nurses were asked to accept part-time or casual work,which allowed hospitals to save on salaries and benefits.Under these conditions, it's not surprising that a lot of nurses (as much as 10% of each graduat -ing year) decided to pack up their scrubs and move to the United States, lured by economic incentives, full-time positions and educationalopportunities offered by wealth y American health-care institutions.With educational cutbacks, hiring freezes and flights south all happening s imultaneously, shortage became much more serious. The nurses who have remained have worked double shifts and massive overtime hours to make up the slack. When you also consider that their labour force is aging: in 15years, half of all nurses will be at retirement age, or that many will be at a stage in their lives where they're unwilling or unable to work overtime, you begin to understand that the underpinnings of our health-care system are crumbling...................
George Conklin - 16 Aug 2004 13:02 GMT > 10% of all graduating Canadian nurses are voting with their feet. > It is always the last resort and only resort. Well, we do need nurses and they closed most of the hospital-based schools in the USA over the past 20 years. It is another artifically-induced shortage. By the way, Reagan noted in 1980 that the USA did have enough nurses, but only that they chose not to work in nursing. Why? Bad working conditions in the hospitals which are organized now on a functional basis, but on a power basis. Years ago my wife had to work 14 days in a row, nights, no days off due to nursing shortage. It is no better now.
Robert - 16 Aug 2004 19:08 GMT > > 10% of all graduating Canadian nurses are voting with their feet. > > It is always the last resort and only resort. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > but on a power basis. Years ago my wife had to work 14 days in a row, > nights, no days off due to nursing shortage. It is no better now. Correct in all your comments and one of the things they did is improve the pay. Where in the Doctors recommendations on how to keep doctors mention pay. The Canadian government sets the doctor pay to what a nurse makes in the US. Canadian nurses come not only for pay here but for working conditions. It is a striking statement to vote with your feet when Canada has a higher standard of living than the US. We are not talking about third world country nurses where the disparity is so great in pay.
nobody special - 22 Aug 2004 22:33 GMT (snipped)
> It is > a striking statement to vote with your feet when Canada has a higher > standard of living than the US. Not true, though you do seem to be the darlings of the UN judgements.
nobody special - 22 Aug 2004 22:35 GMT > (snipped) > > It is > > a striking statement to vote with your feet when Canada has a higher > > standard of living than the US. > > Not true, though you do seem to be the darlings of the UN judgements. please change "you" to "they", thanks
George Conklin - 22 Aug 2004 23:20 GMT > (snipped) > > It is > > a striking statement to vote with your feet when Canada has a higher > > standard of living than the US. > > Not true, though you do seem to be the darlings of the UN judgements. Canada produces surplus nurses. In the USA, we don't want to spend the money to train them, so we import them after letting Canada pay for their education.
George Conklin - 30 Aug 2004 19:55 GMT > > > 10% of all graduating Canadian nurses are voting with their feet. > > > It is always the last resort and only resort. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > standard of living than the US. We are not talking about third world country > nurses where the disparity is so great in pay. Canada produces a surplus number of nurses, just like PA produces a surplus number of teachers. NC needs teachers. NC imports teachers from PA. Likewise, USA imports nurses and doctors. We do not produce enough nurses and no one cares. Also, working conditions are BAD in USA hospitals and that is why we need to import so many: bad working hours and conditions.
tcomeau - 16 Aug 2004 15:30 GMT > 10% of all graduating Canadian nurses are voting with their feet. > It is always the last resort and only resort. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > overtime, you begin to understand that the underpinnings of our health-care > system are crumbling................... One, it's not as bad as you make it out to be, and
two, this has been going on for about five years now to some degree or other, and
three, if all that a nurse or doctor, for that matter, is interested in is money, then by all means leave, go away, and
four, the canadian health care system is still standing and providing pretty darned good services to *ALL* Canadians, regardless of income, or financial or social standing.
Weeeeee staaaaaand oonnnn guaaaaaarddddddd, foooooorrrrrrrrr theeeeeeeeee!!!! Yeeeee haaaaaa!
TC
Robert - 16 Aug 2004 19:20 GMT > > 10% of all graduating Canadian nurses are voting with their feet. > > It is always the last resort and only resort. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > TC TC, how can you fix a problem you Canadians refuse to admit? What a person gets paid is set by the government and not free market. Your government is creating the problem with your health care system. How would you like it if their were a government take over of computer companies? If they were to pay you third world wages and then if you go to the US have other Canadians tell you, "good if all you want is money then go". We have religious hospitals that were once staffed with sisters of religious orders who would not get paid anything. There are five sisters left for a 500 bed hospital. There are medical missionaries going to third world countries who work very cheap. You expect the entire Canadian health care system to be the same or the truth be told you want the socialist way all together.
George Conklin - 19 Aug 2004 10:12 GMT > > TC, how can you fix a problem you Canadians refuse to admit? > What a person gets paid is set by the government and not free market. Your > government is creating the problem with your health care system. How would > you like it if their were a government take over of computer companies? The supply of medical personnel in the USA is highly limited to keep prices UP.
Robert - 19 Aug 2004 19:53 GMT > > > TC, how can you fix a problem you Canadians refuse to admit? > > What a person gets paid is set by the government and not free market. Your [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The supply of medical personnel in the USA is highly limited to keep > prices UP. The US has similar problems that Canada has for similar reasons, government input. Under DRG's and more government the money pinch caused working conditions in many hospitals to either fold or decrease operating costs. As a result the working conditions at hospitals suffered and a lot of hospitals closed. A lot of nurses left the hospitals and stress to work at non hospital settings. Canada has it worse and they prefer to work here as do doctors. It is the job market that controls pay, working conditions here and not in Canada where it is a directly impacted by government spending.
tcomeau - 19 Aug 2004 17:19 GMT "Robert" <Robert@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<snip>
> > One, it's not as bad as you make it out to be, and > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > TC > TC, how can you fix a problem you Canadians refuse to admit? We are aware of our healthcare problems and we will fix it. It is no business of yours how we do it or what we do. If you want to make comparisons don't bother, because you are comparing apples to oranges. We have a functioning, affordable health system that provides care for 100% of out population.
> What a person gets paid is set by the government and not free market. It is a free market. Those areas where there is a demand for doctors will offer more money and extra pay to attract doctors. It just isn't a free market like the US where doctors charge exhorbitant amounts to a few rich people while the majority of people cannot afford health care or healthcare insurance.
Your
> government is creating the problem with your health care system. There is no problem being created. There are more problems being resolved than are being created. The doctors and nurses that stay in Canada are well paid and comfortable financially. They are part of the cummunity and are happy to contribute to the health of the nation.
How would
> you like it if their were a government take over of computer companies? Computer companies do not have illness and death to hold over their clients head to extract exhorbitant fees. Apples and oranges.
If
> they were to pay you third world wages and then if you go to the US have > other Canadians tell you, "good if all you want is money then go". Or if they were to fire me and hand my job over to some guy in India for a few cents an hour..... well that is not happening in Canada, but it is happening in George Bush's American, land of the free and home of the tens of thousands dispossessed IT workers.
> We have religious hospitals that were once staffed with sisters of religious > orders who would not get paid anything. There are five sisters left for a > 500 bed hospital. > There are medical missionaries going to third world countries who work very > cheap. Good for them.
> You expect the entire Canadian health care system to be the same or the > truth be told you want the socialist way all together. See, here is where you go wrong with your arguments. You assume much more than you should about what our beliefs are and what our system really is like. And, of course you are so far off the mark that it becomes an exercise of futility trying yo argue your wrong perceptions and not the realities.
The entire health care system is not "all the same" and to want it to be "all the same" is silly. Where you get these ideas, who the hell knows. For all intents and purposes, out health care system, on the surface, looks exactly the same as the American. Except that 100% of Canadians can walk into any doctor's office, or clinic, or hospital, of their choosing, and be seen and get modern, up-date, medical treatment. The Canadian doctors then bill the provincial health authority, or in my province it is a regional health authority, (there are several thru-out the province).
And when the Canadian doctor is done for the day he retires to his higher end home in an affluent neighborhood and to his/her family.
As opposed to the US where your doctors retire to their mansions, their country clubs, their yachts, their gucci shoes and their caviar while a large number of their fellow American patriots and countrymen, along with their children and elderly folks, upward of 40% of the population, go without access to basic health care.
I'll take this "socialist" approach any time. The Canadian health care system, warts and all, is, in fact, our proudest national achievement, and rightly so. For an American to criticize it the way you do is laughable. And for an American to label it "socialist", as if that were a perjurative, is absolutely hilarious.
TC
Herman Rubin - 19 Aug 2004 20:39 GMT >"Robert" <Robert@hotmail.com> wrote in message <snip>
.........................
>How would >> you like it if their were a government take over of computer companies?
>Computer companies do not have illness and death to hold over their >clients head to extract exhorbitant fees. Apples and oranges. Computers contribute a large amount to the cost of medical care, as well as a great deal to the availability of various types of treatment. I expect that in the not too distant future there will be a great deal of "telemedicine" done, in which one will visit the specialist for diagnosis without having to leave home. This will not handle surgery or hospital care, or tests involving equipment which must be used near the patient.
.................
>And when the Canadian doctor is done for the day he retires to his >higher end home in an affluent neighborhood and to his/her family.
>As opposed to the US where your doctors retire to their mansions, >their country clubs, their yachts, their gucci shoes and their caviar >while a large number of their fellow American patriots and countrymen, >along with their children and elderly folks, upward of 40% of the >population, go without access to basic health care. When will you utopians realize that there will not be what I would call "adequate" health care for centuries, at least, and progress is being stifled by governments? When Lasix came out, it was more expensive in the US; it is now much cheaper than it was then in Canada. It was competition and the drive to make money which did it.
>I'll take this "socialist" approach any time. The Canadian health care >system, warts and all, is, in fact, our proudest national achievement, >and rightly so. For an American to criticize it the way you do is >laughable. And for an American to label it "socialist", as if that >were a perjurative, is absolutely hilarious. No, it is the Marxist ideal which is hilarious. The US is close to government direction of research, and pure research is being stifled by the allocation of funds. Before the government got generous with money, we had lots of really independent research centers, which had to compete not only with faculty salaries, but with various types of research facilities. Now, they can only say, get it from that agency of the government which funds this type of research.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Robert - 20 Aug 2004 00:20 GMT > >"Robert" <Robert@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > or hospital care, or tests involving equipment which must > be used near the patient. There is already much of the telemedicine in rural areas where doctors are scarse. They can get a small camera and zoom in the do exams from far away with the assistance of a nurse or paramedic in remote regions. Doctors here already have hospital computer access in which they can see all lab and direct viewing of radiology images. HIS systems are very sofisticated now that it is priceless in making an impact on patient care. As soon as an Xray is taken it can be viewed by the doctor a few feet away or by a specialist several thousand miles away. Hospital computer systems (HIS) are being used to bar code all medications to match each medication with each patient to prevent errors. Doctors are also giving up on the hand written pads and going online so avoid messy written notes often misinterpreted with bad patient care consequences. Hospital bar system codes can label a specimen of blood and when that blood sample is placed in a machine, the appropriate tests are automatically run and transmitted into the hospital system where transcription errors and sample ID errors can be avoided. Computers are very much time savers and provide accuracy that when they do go down it is a nightmare. We must have 24/7 care of hospital machines and computer services and they are vital.
They want health care workers in Canada to bare the brunt for the cost and leave unregulated computer programmers to make a fortune. Because they are health care workers they must pay for the cost of all the people's health care. TC can make money because he is not involved in health care. They should place people responsible for the hospital systems 24/7 in Canada under the health care system. Here's what they should tell these students before they attend one class. You are expected to get low wages and poor working conditions compared to your non health care counterparts as you are paying for the health care system yourselves.
Inside the June/July 1999 print edition of Canadian Healthcare Technology:
Royal Ottawa Hospital to run program for telehealth technicians By Jerry Zeidenberg
OTTAWA - The Royal Ottawa Hospital has announced that in September, it will become the site for a year-long program to train telehealth technicians. The development appears to confirm that demand for "distance medicine" solutions is growing, as urban hospitals seek to assist physicians and patients in surrounding areas via computerized networks.
What's often missing from the equation is a pool of well-trained technicians who are able to install and maintain telehealth systems and computer networks in general.
To alleviate the shortage, the ROH has entered an agreement with Novatech Computer Careers of Kingston, Ont., a privately run school that has been accredited to deliver the telehealth technology courses by the Ontario government.
For its part, Novatech has taught computer education for six years and launched its first telehealth training-program a year ago. It's said to be the only program producing telehealth technicians in Canada, and the courses cover a wide variety of skills.
"The students have six hours of lectures and labs every day, five days a week," commented Rick Lawless, president and founder of Novatech. "They obtain Microsoft and Novell certification, and gain expertise in personal computers, telecommunications, telephony, cable technologies and computer security."
He noted that students also learn about medical technologies. "They have training in medical software and hardware," said Lawless. "It's a hands-on program. By the end of it, they're able to take a bucket of parts and put a PC together, or a remote stethoscope."
Admittedly, it's an intensive curriculum, and Novatech will be screening applicants to make sure they're committed. "One of the most important things a student can do is to show up every day," said Lawless, adding that a great deal of motivation and drive is also required to complete the assignments. Students don't need a background in computer technology, but they must be eager to learn.
There's a serious financial commitment at stake, too. Tuition is $13,500 for the program. But Lawless says that similar community college programs offering Microsoft and Novell certification cost as much as $19,000.
Moreover, Lawless asserts that it's a worthwhile investment, since 95 percent of graduates from the school have found jobs. Companies hiring the students include Nortel Networks, Newbridge and Corel.
Over the last two years, the school has graduated about 200 students, and currently employs 25 instructors.
At the Royal Ottawa Hospital, the organizers are expecting about 30 full-time students to enroll. They'll be split into two classes.
Lawless expects that some of the students will be recently laid-off healthcare workers who are re-training themselves for jobs in high demand - computer technicians, with special expertise in telehealth. Other applicants might simply wish to change the direction of their careers.
According to Lawless, the small class size - typically eight to 10 students - is a big boost to learning. He observes that university computer classes often contain as many as 150 students. "Students there are lucky to talk to their professors once a year," said Lawless, himself a graduate of the University of Guelph's public administration program, and in computer science from Pennsylvania State University.
By contrast, he said that Novatech's students spend much more time with their instructors, who have all had actual field experience with companies such as Compaq Computer Corp., Rogers Cablesystems, and others.
For more information about Novatech Computer Careers, including the scope of the curriculum, readers can visit its web site at www.novatech.on.ca or call the school at 613-384-7959.
tcomeau - 20 Aug 2004 04:52 GMT hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote in message
> No, it is the Marxist ideal which is hilarious. The US is What the heck does the Marxist ideal have to do with this discussion?
TC
Robert - 20 Aug 2004 07:11 GMT > hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > TC read here comrade Look at the comments about Canada after reading on UK.
http://www.catallarchy.net/blog/archives/2004/06/24/uncle-joe-lives/
CatallarchyJune 24, 2004 Uncle Joe lives Posted by Andy Duncan @ 5:25 am in General| Comments (7) | Trackback | Cosmos
Some days you may feel that you have it bad living in America, especially if you live in somewhere horrific like Taxachusetts. But please spare a thought this morning for those of us in the UK who think the heady heights of Boston 's Bunker Hill would be an Austro-libertarian wonderland compared to what we have to put up with over here.
In many ways Britain resembles a living experiment of what it will be like in the US in a few years time if you let the socialists in Washington DC take over even more control from your lives. So beware!
Take this morning, for instance. In a few hours time our Health Secretary, Dr John Reid, an alleged former communist and the current government's Man of Steel, is going to announce a new five year plan to increase the central capacity of the National Health Service. This is the NHS, that useless government-owned socialised medicine monopoly, where after sixty years of centrally managed failure you can still be forced to wait over a year to get an urgently required brain tumour operation. And the solution to this ongoing failure? Yes, you guessed it, more taxes, more regulations, and more of the same.
As a Marxist who studied communism for many years at University, even gaining a PhD in economic history, you can be sure Dr John Reid is aware of the irony of announcing five year plans. However none of this will show on his normally http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/06/13/ncab113.xml" target="new">bitter angry face this morning, when he boldly explains his great new happy shiny "Vision of the Future".
Because of his advanced education Dr John Reid can still take one of Chairman Joe Stalin's old speeches, first delivered in 1928, and change the words "Tankograd Sector" to "Hospital Sector" and "Increased tank production" to "Increased health capacity". However, the good doctor appears to have learned nothing else. No doubt Dr Reid believes communism collapsed because of some minor technical flaw created and fostered by evil fascists and malcontent capitalists. And no doubt in the future, as a potential British Prime Minister, he will obliterate this flaw to help create the perfect socialist world, along with his future friends in Washington DC.
You may think it amusing that we have a closet communist so close to the top of government here in the UK, a man once ranked as Scotland's most feared Marxist in a land famous for its fearsome Marxists. But please judge Dr Reid 's five year plan instead as an instructive lesson.
The well-hidden Marxist legions in the western world failed to create their magnificent communist utopia Mark I, when the Berlin Wall came down. But many of them are still around and many of them are still marching towards a magnificent communist utopia Mark II, via the legalistic route of democratic regulation. Some of them may even be in a Capitol building near you, using the US healthcare system as a Trojan horse to help destroy what is left of American freedom. You know who they are. Stop them while you still can.
Comments ? Might be a bit of perverse national pride but I think Canada's StalinCare system might be the only one that could give the NHS a run for its money in terms of incompetence, queuing and overall coercion. Does Britain at least have a parallel private system to turn to? Our 'second tier' is on the other side of the US border.
I certainly wish Americans the best of luck in fighting to retain whatever shreds of freedom remain in their health care system. The alternative (for citizens and non-citizens alike)is truly unthinkable.
Comment by Jay Jardine - June 24, 2004 @ 8:35 am
tcomeau - 20 Aug 2004 14:35 GMT And what does this have to do with this discussion?
TC
> > hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > Comment by Jay Jardine - June 24, 2004 @ 8:35 am George Conklin - 20 Aug 2004 15:32 GMT > In many ways Britain resembles a living experiment of what it will be like > in the US in a few years time if you let the socialists in Washington DC > take over even more control from your lives. So beware! Oh I am just shaking so badly I can hardly type. Beware of UK. Yes folks, universal health care at ***half*** the cost of the USA-style medicine is a real threat: to the AMA, not to the public.
tcomeau - 20 Aug 2004 22:04 GMT > > In many ways Britain resembles a living experiment of what it will be like > > in the US in a few years time if you let the socialists in Washington DC [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > folks, universal health care at ***half*** the cost of the USA-style > medicine is a real threat: to the AMA, not to the public. Just for clarification, not all physicians are opposed to universal health care in the US:
http://www.pnhp.org/
TC
George Conklin - 20 Aug 2004 15:30 GMT > hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > TC Government pays for training of nurses in Canada. Maybe that is why Herman is confused. He is a professor teaching in a government-supported university, but believes that is morally wrong too. He gets good benefits, but believes the rest of us should not. I don't understand.
Herman Rubin - 20 Aug 2004 22:54 GMT >> hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote in message
>> > No, it is the Marxist ideal which is hilarious. The US is
>> What the heck does the Marxist ideal have to do with this discussion?
>> TC
> Government pays for training of nurses in Canada. Maybe that is why >Herman is confused. He is a professor teaching in a government-supported >university, but believes that is morally wrong too. He gets good benefits, >but believes the rest of us should not. I don't understand. Our government-sponsored universities compete with private universities, and the salaries and benefits are definitely not any better. I have had offers for industry at salaries quite a bit higher, and have declined them to remain in the academic field.
Do you think those working at comparable levels in industry do not get paid as well as academic people?
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Herman Rubin - 20 Aug 2004 22:41 GMT >hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote in message
>> No, it is the Marxist ideal which is hilarious. The US is
>What the heck does the Marxist ideal have to do with this discussion? "From everyone according to his ability, to everyone according to his need." The claim of the advocates of government medicine is that all would get all the medical care they need.
This is at best a Marxist ideal; it is IMPOSSIBLE. A government goon who decides someone does not "need" something, and therefore keeps him from obtaining it, when it will not directly harm others, is at best a scoundrel, and much worse is usually appropriate.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
tcomeau - 20 Aug 2004 16:55 GMT > "Robert" <Robert@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > <snip> <snip>
> Or if they were to fire me and hand my job over to some guy in India > for a few cents an hour..... well that is not happening in Canada, but > it is happening in George Bush's American, land of the free and home > of the tens of thousands dispossessed IT workers. <snip>
I was wrong and I apologize.
"Under President George W. Bush's leadership, America has lost 1.2 million jobs due to outsourcing. [Economy.com, 3/01 - 2/04]."
It is not tens of thousands but MILLIONS of outsourced jobs.
TC
nobody special - 22 Aug 2004 22:42 GMT > "Robert" <Robert@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > We have a functioning, affordable health system that provides care for > 100% of out population. So does the US.
> > What a person gets paid is set by the government and not free market. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a few rich people while the majority of people cannot afford health > care or healthcare insurance. Not true.
> Your > > government is creating the problem with your health care system. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Computer companies do not have illness and death to hold over their > clients head to extract exhorbitant fees. Apples and oranges. No- the fact that health care personnel and companies provide such an essential service means that they *should* be rewarded remarkably for their work.
> If > > they were to pay you third world wages and then if you go to the US have [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > becomes an exercise of futility trying yo argue your wrong perceptions > and not the realities. One would say the same of you, but there's always hope.
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