Medical Forum / General / General / July 2004
Circumcision CONDEMNED by Roman Catholic Church
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answers_here - 17 Jul 2004 10:38 GMT Circumcision leads to eternal DAMNATION...........
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Circumcision_for_religious_purposes
This practice was condemned by the Council of Florence[9] (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06111a.htm) in 1442, held by leading theologians of the Roman Catholic Church, which said in part:
Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation. [10] (http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/councilflorence/)
L Alpert - 17 Jul 2004 15:16 GMT > Circumcision leads to eternal DAMNATION........... Yep, let's use the Xian belief in hell for more control using fear.......
> From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Circumcision_for_religious_purposes
> This practice was condemned by the Council of Florence[9] > (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06111a.htm) in 1442, held by leading [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > observed without loss of eternal salvation. [10] > (http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/councilflorence/) Parker - 19 Jul 2004 12:53 GMT Most things are condemned by the Roman Catholic Church, matey. Do you follow all their rules and prohibitions? Let us know!
Kenny Thomas - 19 Jul 2004 13:15 GMT If you don't...your not Catholic.
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David Edwards - 20 Jul 2004 22:56 GMT > If you don't...your not Catholic. Kenny I don't understand, you say you are devout Catholic and you follow the church so that's why you are a virgin, but then you say you don't have an opinion about abortion which I thought is much more important to Catholics than virginity.
I will f.ck every cute girl or guy I can get and I can get most of them because right now I'm young and I have the right look and I'm not gonna waste one minute of my chances. I will never allow an abortion if I can stop it because that is a terrible thing, it stomps out a life. The way I see it God would like me more for being against abortion even tho I'm not a virgin than he would like you for being a virgin but not fighting abortion. Why don't you fight abortion instead of circumcision. God is totally cool with circumcision anyway according to the bible. If he gave us sex he must have meant for us to use it otherwise why would he fix us so we get the hots when we see a cutie? I guess we are about the same age but I can't see me suppressing my sex like you do. It would drive me nuts!
Kenny Thomas - 21 Jul 2004 00:22 GMT David,
I never said I didn't have an opinion on abortion. I do, and have voiced it. It's wrong.
Suppression of sexual desire is a show of strength. My devotion to God is greater than my desire to have sex. That is how true Christians are. God first, me second.
Am I perfect? No, of course not. But I try as hard as I can.
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"Americans are under the illusion that they can sacrifice the rights of others and still maintain their own" - Anthony Romero
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David Edwards - 21 Jul 2004 10:45 GMT > David, > > Suppression of sexual desire is a show of strength. My devotion to God is > greater than my desire to have sex. That is so weird! When I'm sucking a nice cock or I have some girl moaning and gasping it's like a religious experience for me. It's like doing what God wants, I can't imagine a God who wasn't cool about sex. There sure are some weird religions around! To each his own I guess.
Kenny Thomas - 21 Jul 2004 15:13 GMT David,
God does not appreciate homosexuals or homosexual acts. What you do, I can promise you God is not the least bit happy with, please read the following which is printed in ALL Catholic and protestant bibles, I am even sure that Jews and Muslims and all other religions have crimes against chastity, which would be pre-marital sex and homosexual acts:
Romans 1: 24 - 32
"24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their discerning mind to do what is improper. 29 They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips 30 and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious towards their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."
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"Americans are under the illusion that they can sacrifice the rights of others and still maintain their own" - Anthony Romero
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David Edwards - 21 Jul 2004 21:15 GMT > David, > > God does not appreciate homosexuals or homosexual acts. What you do, I can > promise you God is not the least bit happy with Dude... seems to me you worship the wrong God.
Sheldon Liberman - 21 Jul 2004 21:28 GMT > David, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Jews and Muslims and all other religions have crimes against chastity, which > would be pre-marital sex and homosexual acts: I don't imagine He's any too please with you and your efforts to keep Jews from His covenant with them. You ought not be casting stones.
> Romans 1: 24 - 32 > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but > give approval to those who practice them." Kenny Thomas - 21 Jul 2004 21:54 GMT Sheldon,
This conversation may be public, but I was not directing this post to you or anyone that is Jewish, it was directed at one person.
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"Americans are under the illusion that they can sacrifice the rights of others and still maintain their own" - Anthony Romero
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Sheldon Liberman - 22 Jul 2004 04:19 GMT > Sheldon, > > This conversation may be public, but I was not directing this post to you or > anyone that is Jewish, it was directed at one person. Kenny, I think you need to learn how to post to the newgroups such that your response contains the message you are responding to. But since you mention it, the usenet is a public forum, something you are aware of before you post, you must therefore expect outside responsesto whatever you may post. If you want to carry on a private conversation, do so by email.
Kenny Thomas - 22 Jul 2004 06:16 GMT Sheldon,
I always remove the message I am responding to on purpose, if I don't and the conversation gets long the message becomes large in size and with all the carrots (>) and HTML mark-up it gets hard to decipher. I just assume people can read the previous message and see what I am replying to.
I know that I can expect outside comments, but the comments I made were not about circumcision but about homosexuality and the evil that it is. The topic was not circumcision at that time.
Regardless, as I have said many times, I have nothing against the Jewish people or faith. You are free to practice what you like for now, but yes, I am fighting to change that. Not because Jews practice it, but because circumcision itself is wrong. My reasoning has nothing to do with your faith or the faith of anyone. To me, circumcision is not a religious matter.
 Signature K.T. Private Investigator MOCert. www.tacep.org
Discuss circumcision in a retro-moderated environment at http://forums.tacep.org/
"Americans are under the illusion that they can sacrifice the rights of others and still maintain their own" - Anthony Romero
Contact Information: Y! - soccer00kid MSNM - soccer00kid @ yahoo.com. AIM - #Private# Electronic Mail - kenny @ tacep.org Postal Mail - Kenny Thomas PO Box 713 Stockton, MO 65785
David Edwards - 22 Jul 2004 11:10 GMT
> the comments I made were not > about circumcision but about homosexuality and the evil that it is. Wow, you think homosexuality is "evil?" That is such crap. I don't like to judge people but this time I gotta say, Kenny you are a homophobe and that is really sick. I wonder if you know how much you hurt people when you say stuff like that.
Why would God make gay people if he thought it was evil? Why would he give people sex if he wanted us to repress it like you?
Sorry Kenny, I really hate to get personal but its so uncool to call gay people evil. Do you know a lot of homophobes are closet homosexuals who hate themselves without even knowing it. I have to wonder about you especially when you use relig to justify not having sex with girls.
Dude you really need to get laid and find out who you are!
Kenny Thomas - 22 Jul 2004 15:12 GMT David,
I don't care if you or anyone else is homosexual. Do I like it? No. Do I want to hear about your perversions? No.
If you read the bible you will see MANY entries about the sanctity between a man and a woman. In the beginning of time God created the man and then the woman. He told them, he commanded them, "be fruitful and multiply." He never once in the entire bible said "Have sex, have fun and who cares if you do it with men or women."
I don't press my beliefs on others. I don't attack you personally and I never will. I don't call you names and I don't threaten you. I happen to think what you do is evil and wrong, and it makes me sick.
Am I afraid of homosexuals? No, quite contrary, my girlfriend has a gay male friend that we hang around with all the time at school. He's a great guy, but do I think his attraction towards men is right? No, I don't.
You ask "Why would God make gay people if he thought it was evil? Why would he give people sex if he wanted us to repress it like you?"
I'll tell you right now that God does not "make" gay people. They give into all of their desires, they let sex, and not God, be the centre of their life. All they do is seek pleasure regardless of where they get it from. Being that way is a direct violation of the commandment that says "I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me." [Exodus 20:2] Instead of worshiping God, you are too preoccupied with sex, you are a slave to your own body. You could care less about God, I don't even need to ask you about your religious beliefs to know that.
Sex is for the sanctity of marriage, and only marriage. God himself commanded man and woman to: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth." [Genesis 1:28] Even Jesus himself (who is God) said that sex is only for marriage, and anything outside of marriage is a sin, a crime of adultery: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your body thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna." Jesus speaks many times about sex and the sanctity of marriage, these are just a few.
You asked me these questions, these are my answers. Like them, don't like them, I don't care. I accept these as truth. These are why I do what I do.
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Discuss circumcision in a retro-moderated environment at http://forums.tacep.org/
"Americans are under the illusion that they can sacrifice the rights of others and still maintain their own" - Anthony Romero
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David Edwards - 22 Jul 2004 18:51 GMT > David, I don't attack you personally and I
> never will. I don't call you names and I don't threaten you. I happen to > think what you do is evil and wrong, and it makes me sick. Oh.
Briar Rabbit - 22 Jul 2004 17:31 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > homophobe and that is really sick. I wonder if you know how much you > hurt people when you say stuff like that. David, Kenny is in denial. He is bursting to break out of the closet.
Then as Lou sang we will see ...
"Holly came from miami f.l.a. Hitch-hiked her way across the u.s.a. ..."
This one is going to be a real cutie pie.
Sheldon Liberman - 22 Jul 2004 13:27 GMT > Sheldon, > > I always remove the message I am responding to on purpose, if I don't and > the conversation gets long the message becomes large in size and with all > the carrots (>) and HTML mark-up it gets hard to decipher. I just assume > people can read the previous message and see what I am replying to. Well, you assume wrong.
Top posting is considered a breech in netiquette since it makes it difficult to follow the flow of a discussion and forces the reader to search below to find the relevent reference. That being the case, how more so would it be unseemly to cut the entire reference from your reply?
> I know that I can expect outside comments, but the comments I made were not > about circumcision but about homosexuality and the evil that it is. The [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > circumcision itself is wrong. My reasoning has nothing to do with your faith > or the faith of anyone. To me, circumcision is not a religious matter. Well, to us it is. And since it is the position of the Catholic church that you should not interefere with the beliefs of Jews, whose own road to salvation runs through their faith, you are de facto subordinating Catholicism to your personal sensitivities. You are therefore not a Catholic, just someone who has some common beliefs with those who are.
Have you heard the maxim that "the road to h-ll is paved with good intentions "? Jews don't believe in the concept, at least not the same way Christians do, but the saying itself has value. It means that if you go against the teachings of the Bible in favor of something that makes more sense to personally, you are de facto elevating your personal wisdom above its Author.. That's a grave sin indeed.
Moreover, by attempting to inflict harm on the Jews--and don't delude yourself into thinking that a ban on circumcision wouldn't be extremely harmful to Jews--you or show a total lack of gratitude not only to those to made possible your faith, but those who fought tooth-and-nail against the Roman practice of feeding Christians to the lions.
Kenny Thomas - 22 Jul 2004 15:21 GMT Sheldon,
I'm sorry you don't like how I post my messages. I hate hunting through a bunch of replies to find one relevant sentence, I just go back to the previous post and find it.
I am Catholic, I respect other's religions, including the Jewish faith. However, there is something morally wrong with circumcision. I am not doing this to attack the Jewish faith, I am doing this to prevent harm from being done to individuals.
I would like to ask you something in all seriousness. Please, don't attack me for this or call me names for not knowing the answer, but, if you had a baby boy tomorrow, and the law prevented infant circumcision, but after the age of 18 a male can decide to circumcise himself, would that be allowed? I also have another question, there are many groups out there that are made up completely of Jewish people that oppose circumcision. They still perform the bris, but it is an alternate one that removes no skin at all. Would this be a possibility? I'm also curious, why must you remove all of the skin? As far as I know God wasn't too specific, all he said is to circumcise the flesh of the foreskin, and you know, to be honest, a circumcision doesn't have to mean you have to cut anything off, circumcise just means to "cut around," and as I'm sure you have, I have cut my finger before with a knife on accident, and that doesn't mean my finger was cut off. Not that these would be acceptable to me either, but I would be far more comfortable with something like that than I would a complete alteration of someone's body. Or is it just Jews cut the entire foreskin off because of tradition? If it's just tradition couldn't the tradition be broken and just allow the things I mentioned before be performed?
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Discuss circumcision in a retro-moderated environment at http://forums.tacep.org/
"Americans are under the illusion that they can sacrifice the rights of others and still maintain their own" - Anthony Romero
Contact Information: Y! - soccer00kid MSNM - soccer00kid @ yahoo.com. AIM - #Private# Electronic Mail - kenny @ tacep.org Postal Mail - Kenny Thomas PO Box 713 Stockton, MO 65785
> > > Sheldon, [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > made possible your faith, but those who fought tooth-and-nail against the > Roman practice of feeding Christians to the lions. Briar Rabbit - 22 Jul 2004 17:19 GMT >>Sheldon, >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > post, you must therefore expect outside responsesto whatever you may post. > If you want to carry on a private conversation, do so by email. Kenny does not have the smarts to figure that out.
David Edwards - 21 Jul 2004 22:01 GMT > David, > > God does not appreciate homosexuals or homosexual acts. What you do, I can > promise you God is not the least bit happy with Dude... seems to me you worship the wrong God.
Kenny Thomas - 21 Jul 2004 22:17 GMT David,
Can you tell me any religion that condones homosexuals? Any at all? No Christians do, and that counts out the majority of the world.
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"Americans are under the illusion that they can sacrifice the rights of others and still maintain their own" - Anthony Romero
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L Alpert - 22 Jul 2004 01:05 GMT > David, > > Can you tell me any religion that condones homosexuals? Any at all? No > Christians do, and that counts out the majority of the world. Leaves little to say about religion.
howard aubrey - 22 Jul 2004 00:42 GMT > David, > > God Prove that god exists, and then get back to us. Until you do, you're just another lunatic who hears voices.
cheers....
HJA
Kenny Thomas - 22 Jul 2004 00:51 GMT Howard,
Prove to me God doesn't exist.
There is a reason why it's called "Faith."
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"Americans are under the illusion that they can sacrifice the rights of others and still maintain their own" - Anthony Romero
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L Alpert - 22 Jul 2004 01:07 GMT > Howard, > > Prove to me God doesn't exist. > > There is a reason why it's called "Faith." There are those that are happy to follow faith, and others that care for objective evidence.
Kenny Thomas - 22 Jul 2004 01:17 GMT John 20: 24-29
"24 Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples said to him, 'We have seen the Lord.' But he said to them, 'Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.' 26 Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said 'Peace be with you.' 27 Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.' 28 Thomas answered and said to him 'My Lord and my God!' 29 Jesus said to him, 'Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.'"
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Discuss circumcision in a retro-moderated environment at http://forums.tacep.org/
"Americans are under the illusion that they can sacrifice the rights of others and still maintain their own" - Anthony Romero
Contact Information: Y! - soccer00kid MSNM - soccer00kid @ yahoo.com. AIM - #Private# Electronic Mail - kenny @ tacep.org Postal Mail - Kenny Thomas PO Box 713 Stockton, MO 65785
Sheldon Liberman - 22 Jul 2004 04:21 GMT > > David, > > > > God > > Prove that god exists, and then get back to us. Until you do, > you're just another lunatic who hears voices. Is that what happened to you at Bellvue, How-wierd?
> cheers.... > > HJA David Edwards - 20 Jul 2004 22:56 GMT > If you don't...your not Catholic. Kenny I don't understand, you say you are devout Catholic and you follow the church so that's why you are a virgin, but then you say you don't have an opinion about abortion which I thought is much more important to Catholics than virginity.
I will f.ck every cute girl or guy I can get and I can get most of them because right now I'm young and I have the right look and I'm not gonna waste one minute of my chances. I will never allow an abortion if I can stop it because that is a terrible thing, it stomps out a life. The way I see it God would like me more for being against abortion even tho I'm not a virgin than he would like you for being a virgin but not fighting abortion. Why don't you fight abortion instead of circumcision. God is totally cool with circumcision anyway according to the bible. If he gave us sex he must have meant for us to use it otherwise why would he fix us so we get the hots when we see a cutie? I guess we are about the same age but I can't see me suppressing my sex like you do. It would drive me nuts!
Stan de SD - 20 Jul 2004 19:36 GMT > Most things are condemned by the Roman Catholic Church, matey. Do you > follow all their rules and prohibitions? Let us know! Based on that wacknut's obsession with masturbation, I doubt it... sheesh.
Ralph - 22 Jul 2004 19:07 GMT do you mean those wonderful people who gave us the spanish inquisition & child molestation?
> Most things are condemned by the Roman Catholic Church, matey. Do you > follow all their rules and prohibitions? Let us know!
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