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Medical Forum / General / General / April 2004

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My doc told me these

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Sharon - 01 Apr 2004 18:35 GMT
Can you guys tell me, true or false on these?  The second one I've heard
from several doctors now; I get different stories from everyone.

1.  Is Lodine aka Etodolac addictive?  I know it's an NSAID, and I thought
that *non-steriodal* anti-inflammatories were not addictive.

2.  If a person has an artificial joint, metal screws or plates in a bone,
is it safe for that person to get an MRI?  I keep getting doctors who claim
that they have patients with artificial joints getting MRI's with no
problem.

Thanks for your opinions!

--
Sharon, Lurking As Usual
To reply, replace spammersmustdie with jcwoman1963
anon - 02 Apr 2004 00:03 GMT
> Can you guys tell me, true or false on these?  The second one I've heard
> from several doctors now; I get different stories from everyone.

Probably because you're asking people who don't know what they're
talking about.

> 1.  Is Lodine aka Etodolac addictive?  I know it's an NSAID, and I thought
> that *non-steriodal* anti-inflammatories were not addictive.

Neither NSAIDs nor steroids are addictive.

> 2.  If a person has an artificial joint, metal screws or plates in a bone,
> is it safe for that person to get an MRI?

If all of the metal used is nonferrous, it's safe, since nonferrous
alloys are not magnetic and will not be affected by an MRI. However,
since many older implants are made of stainless steel or another
ferrous alloy, most doctors will err on the side of caution and avoid
an MRI unless it's known with certainty that all implanted materials
are nonferrous (e.g, from surgical records, etc.)
Sharon - 02 Apr 2004 17:21 GMT
> > Can you guys tell me, true or false on these?  The second one I've heard
> > from several doctors now; I get different stories from everyone.
>
> Probably because you're asking people who don't know what they're
> talking about.

 The people I've been asking have all been MD's.  It's soooo hard to find
one that doesn't either bullshit me or push their own medical agenda.  Only
one doctor I've ever been to in my life (40 years now) has treated me like
an intelligent adult and partner in my health care.

> > 1.  Is Lodine aka Etodolac addictive?  I know it's an NSAID, and I thought
> > that *non-steriodal* anti-inflammatories were not addictive.
>
> Neither NSAIDs nor steroids are addictive.

 Well, I thought steroids were.  In any case, thanks.  This doctor is
clearly pushing her own agenda.  Drugs too.  I do very well on Lodine.  She
wants me off it and taking a DMARD instead.  She also said she may put me on
Embrel, a biologic injectible.  Even creepier, she's literally *pushing*
ultraset on me.

Me:  I only have pain if I don't take my anti-inflammatory.
Her:  That's good.  But take the ultraset anytime you feel pain.  You can
take it with the anti-inflammatory too.  And you can take as much as 4
ultrasets a day if you want to.  (Gives me a month's worth of sample
ultraset packages on my way out the door, PLUS a prescription.)

> > 2.  If a person has an artificial joint, metal screws or plates in a bone,
> > is it safe for that person to get an MRI?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> an MRI unless it's known with certainty that all implanted materials
> are nonferrous (e.g, from surgical records, etc.)

 Ok, I'll write to my surgeon and ask for the composition of my implants.
Reumatologists and GP's never believe me since I'm obviously just an
ignorant patient, maybe they'll believe a letter from the surgeon.
 What I don't get is for the past few years the media and medical insurance
companies have been telling us to be "partners with your doctor in your
health care".  I'm all for that.  Why is it that doctors still seem to be
dictators who dismiss my concerns and questions?

--
Sharon, Lurking As Usual
To reply, replace spammersmustdie with jcwoman1963
anon - 02 Apr 2004 20:48 GMT
>> Neither NSAIDs nor steroids are addictive.
>
>   Well, I thought steroids were.

Nope.

> I do very well on Lodine.  She
> wants me off it and taking a DMARD instead.

Well, in fairness, long-term NSAID use carries a risk of GI bleeding,
which can be fatal. There's also the potential for nephrotoxicity
("kidney damage"), also not good. That's not to say that alternative
medications are risk-free, but NSAIDs aren't completely benign agents
either, despite their over-the-counter status.

> She also said she may put me on
> Embrel, a biologic injectible.  Even creepier, she's literally *pushing*
> ultraset on me.

Unlike NSAIDs, Embrel and other DMARDs have the potential to slow down
the progression of rheumatoid arthritis, which can ultimately be
crippling. That's probably why she's fired up about it, and less so
about strictly pain-relieving approaches, attractive (and inexpensive)
though they may appear. At some point, Lodine may cease to help you,
and if your disease has progressed significantly by that time, you'll
likely be in a much worse position than if you'd gone for the DMARD
earlier on. As for Ultracet, it's generally considered to be more
effective (and safer for the stomach and kidneys) than chronic NSAIDs,
and less habit-forming than narcotics.

> Why is it that doctors still seem to be
> dictators who dismiss my concerns and questions?

Dunno...did you ask your doctors that question?
Sharon - 02 Apr 2004 21:49 GMT
> Well, in fairness, long-term NSAID use carries a risk of GI bleeding,
> which can be fatal. There's also the potential for nephrotoxicity
> ("kidney damage"), also not good. That's not to say that alternative
> medications are risk-free, but NSAIDs aren't completely benign agents
> either, despite their over-the-counter status.

  Yep, I know.  But I read the booklet about biologics (embrel) she gave
me.  Possible side effects include cancer.  I think I'll take my chances
with the GI bleeding, thankyouverymuch.
  Since for all you know i'm decrepit with gnarly fingers and heavy
flaring, I'll just mention that I'm an adult with JRA in remission.  This
will make you cringe, but I literally grew up on heavy doses of aspirin.  In
my teens they started making me sick so that's when I switched to
prescription NSAIDS which worked better at much smaller doses.  I've tried
them all at this point, and I know which ones work for me and which ones
don't.  Amazingly despite the NSAID diet, I never developed serious GI
bleeding (only barely) and no ulcers.  I seem to have an iron GI.
 Which isn't to say that I'm immortal and will NEVER get GI problems.  I
know it's a possiblity.  But I'm comparing a personal track record with the
unknown risk of other horrible side effects that other drugs might cause.  I
feel that my condition doesn't warrant taking those unknown risks right now.

> Unlike NSAIDs, Embrel and other DMARDs have the potential to slow down
> the progression of rheumatoid arthritis, which can ultimately be
> crippling. That's probably why she's fired up about it, and less so

  I understand.  I don't think I have any progression, though.  My physical
condition has been stable since my early twenties.  I'm going to a
rheumatologist only for routine care, monitoring in case I DO start getting
flare-ups and reactivated RA.
 She's not paying any attention to my history, only what she sees today.
(This is a new doctor.)  I have some permanent joint damage from flareups I
had when I was a kid.  She seems to be looking at these as if they were
current or ongoing damage.

> earlier on. As for Ultracet, it's generally considered to be more
> effective (and safer for the stomach and kidneys) than chronic NSAIDs,
> and less habit-forming than narcotics.

  So daily use of Ultraset is better for me than daily use of NSAIDS?
  I'm of the camp that you don't throw drugs at every little problem.  I
think sometimes doctors get too gung-ho with the medications.  I've read the
reports where doctors say their patients practically demand drugs to fix
their problems.  I'm sure that does happen.  But then when a patient like me
who comes along who doesn't want to take a daily pill cocktail, they push it
on us too.
  I've overdosed several times in my life and they've all been on
prescriptions under a doctor's supervision.  I managed somehow to not get
Reyes Syndrome from all the baby aspirin mom had to feed me, but I did
discover that in high enough doses aspirin is hallucinogenic!  I often
wonder if this is the reason I never got into illegal drugs much as a
teenager.

> > Why is it that doctors still seem to be
> > dictators who dismiss my concerns and questions?
>
> Dunno...did you ask your doctors that question?

 I would love to, but wouldn't that make them instantly defensive?  Not a
good way to start a relationship.  I'm still in the search for a GP for
regular physicals and such.  Sometimes I wonder if I can walk into the exam
room and start the conversation by saying I'm looking for a primary care
physician who will be a partner in my health care, who will listen to my
concerns and treat me as an intelligent adult.
 But then I think that they'd instantly peg me as a troublemaker or
difficult patient and refuse to see me.  I've obviously had bad experiences
with doctors in the past, so I'm wary.  But I honestly don't want to be a
bad patient.  I just want a doctor who won't make me feel like I'm being
bullshitted or condescended to or ignored.
  Years ago a GP told me to get a mammogram and I told her that I'd heard
it was painful so I felt unsure about it.   I was trying to begin a
conversation so that she would put at rest my fears.  The correct answer
would have been to be honest with me, whether it really did hurt or not.  If
it did hurt, say so but then suggest some ideas for coping or psyching
myself out of it.  It didn't have to take more than 5 minutes or so.  The
WRONG answer and the one she actually gave me was "oh, that's just what
people say to annoy me" and then walk out the door.
 BTW, Anon thank you very much.  I wish I could have this conversation with
my doctors!  I hope you don't think i'm just arguing with you for the fun of
arguing.  I am really interested in a doctor's point of view.  (I know, I'm
*assuming* you're a doctor.)  I've been browsing this newsgroup for a while
and there seem to be some doctors on here.  It would be great if someone
would give me hints in how to relate to the doctors in such a way as to get
that 'partner in health".  In my experience they don't really care to work
with intelligent adults who ask questions and discuss the pros and cons of
various treatments.  If I'm wrong, I'd like some suggestions.

Sharon
anon - 02 Apr 2004 22:42 GMT
>    Yep, I know.  But I read the booklet about biologics (embrel) she gave
> me.  Possible side effects include cancer.  I think I'll take my chances
> with the GI bleeding, thankyouverymuch.

Fair enough. If I were your doctor, I'd just write that in your chart,
and that'd be that. After the usual discussion regarding probabilties
and such.  ;-)

>   She's not paying any attention to my history, only what she sees today.
> (This is a new doctor.)  I have some permanent joint damage from flareups I
> had when I was a kid.  She seems to be looking at these as if they were
> current or ongoing damage.

You should let her know your history, of course, if you haven't done so
already.

>    So daily use of Ultraset is better for me than daily use of NSAIDS?

I wouldn't say that. For one thing, Ultracet is pretty expensive.
NSAIDs (most of them, anyway) are relatively cheap. Both have risks.
Neither is "better" or "worse" overall.

>    I'm of the camp that you don't throw drugs at every little problem.

Well, neither am I. However, medications certainly have their place,
and in this day and age, many patients (not necessarily you) expect a
quick fix for every ailment. Whether that's appropriate or whether we
should indulge them is subject to debate.

> But then when a patient like me
> who comes along who doesn't want to take a daily pill cocktail, they push it
> on us too.

Depends on the person and the pill(s). For my diabetics, for example, I
most certainly "push" a baby aspirin, an ACE inhibitor, and...in many
cases...a statin and metformin. For my cardiac patients, I "push"
aspirin, beta blockers, statins, etc. There is clear evidence that
these medications provide substantial benefits that far outweigh their
risks. They have literally become the standard of care, and to *not*
push them is essentially malpractice. Patients can protest, but I do my
best to educate them as to why I think they need the medication(s), and
if they continue to refuse, I document their refusal and the reason for
it in their chart. This is what's known as "covering my a.s." Sad, but
unfortunately necessary in these times. You can bet that I'll keep
bringing them up from time to time, too. Just like smoking cessation.

>>> Why is it that doctors still seem to be
>>> dictators who dismiss my concerns and questions?
>>
>> Dunno...did you ask your doctors that question?
>
>   I would love to, but wouldn't that make them instantly defensive?

Depends how you phrase the question, I suppose.  ;-)

> I'm still in the search for a GP for
> regular physicals and such.

I recommend a board-certified family physician. (Hint: there's no such
thing as "GPs" anymore, at least not in the U.S. of A.)

> Sometimes I wonder if I can walk into the exam
> room and start the conversation by saying I'm looking for a primary care
> physician who will be a partner in my health care, who will listen to my
> concerns and treat me as an intelligent adult.

I'd definitely mention the "partner in health care" part (music to my
ears, personally). I'd leave out the part about listening and treating
you as an adult, unless your doctor doesn't. Saying something like that
beforehand is like stamping a scarlet "D" ("difficult") on your
forehead.  ;-)

>   I've obviously had bad experiences
> with doctors in the past, so I'm wary.

Fair enough, but keep in mind that I'm also going to be wary of a
patient who has a long history of not being satisfied with any of their
doctors or treatments. However, I'm usually willing to give such
patients the benefit of the doubt, knowing that the real bad apples
will show their true colors eventually. Remember, doctors *can* fire
their patients. They just have to do it correctly.

>    Years ago a GP told me to get a mammogram and I told her that I'd heard
> it was painful so I felt unsure about it.

Screening tests aren't always painless, but they're certainly
tolerable. Few things are more painful than being told you have
metastatic cancer, and early detection can go a long way toward
preventing that in the case of breast CA. There are ways to make a
mammogram more comfortable (choosing a good mammography center, for
one). It's never going to be something you look forward to, but don't
risk dying because of the fear of a little discomfort. It's probably
not as bad as you think, anyway. As for "horror stories" from other
people, *never* let these dissuade you from doing the right thing for
yourself. One person's experience is just that; *one* person's
experience. It doesn't have to be yours.

> The
> WRONG answer and the one she actually gave me was "oh, that's just what
> people say to annoy me" and then walk out the door.

I agree. That's totally inappropriate.

>   BTW, Anon thank you very much.  I wish I could have this conversation with
> my doctors!

You can. Just remember that the doctor-patient relationship is a very
unique thing. You're not a "customer" (a purchaser of goods or
services), and they're not a "provider" (regardless of the HMO
industry's adoption of that terminology). If you treat your doctor as a
partner, I think you'll find that they will respond in kind. That
doesn't mean being overly solicitous or inappropriately familiar,
however. You don't have to be friends with your doctor in order to have
a good doctor-patient relationship. All you need is a common goal: your
good health. Most doctors appreciate patients who take an active role
in their health rather than a passive one ("Fix me!"), so do your part,
and let your doctor do theirs. Also, if you want your doctor to be
flexible, don't *you* be rigid. "I'm not taking that medicine" is
rigid; "I'm not getting a mammogram because it hurts" is rigid.
Instead, say something like "I'm concerned about the possible side
effects of this medicine", or "I'm afraid the mammogram will be
painful". I virtually guarantee your doctor will respond better if you
at least indicate that a subject is open to discussion.

> (I know, I'm
> *assuming* you're a doctor.)

I'm a board-certified family physician.

Good luck!
InquiringMind@earthnerd.net - 03 Apr 2004 05:12 GMT
>You can. Just remember that the doctor-patient relationship is a very
>unique thing. You're not a "customer" (a purchaser of goods or
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>painful". I virtually guarantee your doctor will respond better if you
>at least indicate that a subject is open to discussion.

Another of the "Just trust me" ploys we've heard from the medical
establishment for years. If you've got an interesting disease and/or
suck up to god, he might deign to give you the benefit of his
knowledge (for an inflated price of course). Otherwise, tough!

Fortunately the capitalist system will eventually rid us of
anachronisms like anon.
Emma Chase VanCott - 03 Apr 2004 14:56 GMT
: prescriptions under a doctor's supervision.  I managed somehow to not get
: Reyes Syndrome from all the baby aspirin mom had to feed me, but I did
: discover that in high enough doses aspirin is hallucinogenic!  I often
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yep. You can get sounds, or ringing in the ears, and such. A reversible
tinnitus. This is called an "anion-gap" disturbance. The Acid-Base
balance is out of whack. Bad news.

My BF likes to tell this story of working in the local ER:

A woman came in complaining of hearing sounds. The ER docs were uninterested
and passed this "crazy lady" onto the psychiatry service, so they called
him in to see her.

Fortunately, the BF didn't accept this acute onset as being a reason to
drug her up, or offer up a Dx, and went on to investigate further.

Well, whaddya know...Turns out: the "crazy lady" had been taking too much
Aspirin. <!>

He said it was very disappointing that his detection of an anion-gap made the
other Residents and medical students finally come running to look at her
(so they could see an "anion gap" in real life). *blah* A good case for
those interested in the nit-picking field of Internal Medicine.(The other
field that the BF had considered; that may be why he picked up this teensy
"little" detail of an anion-gap problem <G>, while others didn't investigate.):)

Moral of the story: if someone is acutely "crazy" -- look for something
medical factor, or crisis.

PS. This has even happened to me. Last year the outpt team i was on had a
schiz. pt. who was well controlled with meds. He started getting
restless and verbalizing/behaving in his usual prodromal-relapse way --
i had no idea, but my RN had known him for over a decade -- so knew
RN he was re-lapsing.

(FWIW, most LT pts tend to show the same signs of relapse when it is
beginning to re-occur. e.g you will notice them doing their own little odd
behaviours, and/or their own particular strange ideas ("fixed delusions")
mentioned. In my rotation, i saw this play itself out a few times.

My RN got him to the hospital. The acute worsening of is "usual" stomach
problems weren't *entirely* a delusion. A flat-plate Abd X-ray showed the
fellow was backed-up full of stool. No *wonder* he complained about
increasingly regarding his 'stomach', and had stopped eating!

Cheers,
Emma
:)
David Wright - 04 Apr 2004 20:42 GMT
>: prescriptions under a doctor's supervision.  I managed somehow to not get
>: Reyes Syndrome from all the baby aspirin mom had to feed me, but I did
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>fellow was backed-up full of stool. No *wonder* he complained about
>increasingly regarding his 'stomach', and had stopped eating!

William Nolen, MD, in his book "The Making of a Surgeon," writes about
an ER patient who was brought in acting very erratic, so he tried to
turf her to the psych department.  The psych doc took one look at her
and said "Bill, this woman's no nut.  I bet she's bleeding internally
from a ruptured ectopic [pregnancy]."  Which was indeed the case; once
the bleeding was stemmed and she had been transfused, she was
perfectly rational.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
      "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
          were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)
 
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