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Medical Forum / General / General / February 2004

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Kathy - 25 Jan 2004 08:33 GMT
"At the present time, the value of treating hyperlipidemia in
patients greater than 80 years of age is unknown, and therapy
in this age group must be individualized. (c)1999 by CVRR, Inc."

Is this a joke or what?  How can you individualize therapy
if the value is unknown?
Nigel - 25 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT
kathy9810@yahoo.com (Kathy) wrote in news:b98653c0.0401250033.1379a550
@posting.google.com:

> "At the present time, the value of treating hyperlipidemia in
> patients greater than 80 years of age is unknown, and therapy
>  in this age group must be individualized. (c)1999 by CVRR, Inc."
>
> Is this a joke or what?  How can you individualize therapy
> if the value is unknown?

Not a joke, the vocabulary of science.

Therapy must be individualized to attain the clinical end point; a change
of blood cholesterol levels as measured in the lab.

Of unknown value because in this group, there is no evidence of a change in
morbidity or mortality.
Badant - 26 Jan 2004 00:32 GMT
> kathy9810@yahoo.com (Kathy) wrote in news:b98653c0.0401250033.1379a550
> @posting.google.com:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Of unknown value because in this group, there is no evidence of a change in
> morbidity or mortality.

Benefit? Little to none in ANY group. Rather, debilitating adverse
effect.
B'adant

Unclogging the heart debate: Do cholesterol pills help or harm?

By PAUL TAYLOR
Saturday, January 24, 2004 - Page F4

For the past three years, Melvyn Mould has been taking a medication to
keep his cholesterol under control. The 62-year-old retired carpenter
never liked the idea of being on a drug. So he also adhered to a
strict low-fat diet and exercised regularly, hoping to reduce his
dependence on the daily pill. And now Mr. Mould's efforts appear to be
paying off.

After recently doubling his exercise routine -- to six days a week
from three -- his LDL, or so-called bad cholesterol, has been cut by
almost half. If his LDL remains low at his next medical checkup, Mr.
Mould's doctor may decide to reduce or eliminate the drug entirely.

"I am really looking forward to my next appointment," says Mr. Mould,
who lives in Toronto.

Mr. Mould would be bucking a trend if he is taken off medication. More
patients are going on these powerful drugs all the time. From 1998 to
2003, the number of prescriptions filled in Canada for cholesterol
medications skyrocketed to 16 million from seven million, IMS Health
Canada reports. The dollar value of those drug sales soared to
$1.4-billion from $675-million.

A panel of Canadian heart specialists recently issued new guidelines
to help family physicians decide which of their patients should be
taking cholesterol medications based on a variety of risk factors for
cardiovascular disease. The guidelines, published in the Canadian
Medical Association Journal, could increase the number of patients
considered at high risk of a heart attack -- and deemed in need of
immediate drug treatment.

But some doctors are worried about the increasing reliance on
medications. "My concern is that people may rush [to drug treatment]
without actually seeing whether lifestyle changes can make a
difference," said Dr. David Jenkins, director of a treatment clinic at
St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto.

Dr. Michael Evans, an assistant professor at the University of
Toronto, shares those concerns. "As a family doctor, I would prefer if
patients got increased exercise and developed better eating habits and
therefore lost weight because they would have less chance of
developing osteoarthritis and diabetes -- and it can even improve
their sleep."

Dr. Jim Wright, a professor at University of British Columbia, has
touched off a fierce debate in the medical community by suggesting
that some patients might actually be harmed by the over-prescription
of these drugs.

He points out that taking medication carries the risk of some side
effects such as liver function problems, muscle aches and pains, and
possible nerve damage. For patients who truly are at an elevated
chance of suffering a debilitating or even lethal heart attack, those
risks are clearly worth it. But the benefit is not so clear-cut in
patients who are at far lower probability of having an attack, he
argues.

Dr. Wright recently reviewed the data from several major international
trials of the leading cholesterol-lowering drugs, known as statins, to
determine their effects on lower-risk patients. He found that the
drugs produced a drop of 1 to 2 per cent in total heart attacks and
strokes over a three-to-five-year period. But these benefits seemed to
be washed away by other unexplained adverse events which weren't
specified in the studies. The patients on the drugs ended up in
hospital with "life-threatening events" just as many times as people
popping the placebos.

"There is good reason to not be taking the drugs unless you are pretty
confident that you are in a group that is going to stand to benefit,"
Dr. Wright said.

He also takes issue with the new cholesterol guidelines, insisting
that there is not enough scientific evidence to back them up.

Dr. Ruth McPherson, one of the authors of the guidelines and a
professor at the University of Ottawa, defends her work. "I don't
think it's true that we are treating people who don't require
treatment."

The debate has become so heated, in part, because much is still
unknown about cardiovascular disease. Studies have not yet
demonstrated the ideal level for cholesterol.

What has been clearly established is that lowering cholesterol in a
person who has already had one heart attack greatly reduces the
chances of a second attack. Treating these patients is known as
secondary prevention, and all the experts agree that it makes sense to
focus medical efforts on people with proven heart disease.

But doctors also want to help people before they've had their first
heart attack, a treatment strategy known as primary prevention. And
this is where the guesswork begins. Medical experts have tried to put
together a list of risk factors, such as cholesterol, blood pressure
and smoking habits, which may predispose people to atherosclerosis.

However, the known risks account for only about half of all cases of
heart disease. To complicate matters further, the medical view of
heart disease is rapidly changing with advances in research.

Experts used to think heart disease was caused by the simple
accumulation of fatty deposits inside blood vessels. Now, they see it
as the end result of a far more complex inflammatory process. It
starts when certain fats and other highly reactive substances float
through the bloodstream gradually damaging the inside lining of the
blood vessels. This leads to the buildup of plaque -- a form of scar
tissue -- which is filled with various fats and cellular debris. At
first, the growing plaque doesn't impede blood flow. But in time, the
plaque can rupture and form a clot -- triggering a heart attack or
stroke.

If doctors had an easy way to peer inside blood vessels, they would
have a better idea of which patients are at greatest risk of heart
disease. Dr. David Spence believes he has developed just such a test.
The professor at the Robarts Research Institute in London, Ont., has
been using ultrasound to create two-dimensional images of plaque
deposits in the arteries.

His tests have focused on the carotid arteries just under the surface
of the neck. Dr. Spence says these images of the carotid arteries
provide a window of what's happening in blood vessels in the heart.

In a five-year study, he found that patients with the highest plaque
deposits in their carotid arteries were 3.5 times more likely to
suffer a heart attack, stroke or death than those with the lowest
deposits.

"The benefit of doing these plaque measurements is that it sorts out
who is at risk and who isn't -- and I believe it will make therapy
much more cost effective, he said. "Some version of this is how people
are going to be treating the arteries in the next ten years," he
predicts. If he's correct, it may go a long way to settling the
current debate.

Paul Taylor is a Globe and Mail assistant national editor, responsible
for health and science coverage.
JG - 26 Jan 2004 13:10 GMT
"Badant" <badant@despammed.com> wrote...
> > kathy9810@yahoo.com (Kathy) wrote in news:b98653c0.0401250033.1379a550
> > @posting.google.com:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Benefit? Little to none in ANY group. Rather, debilitating adverse
> effect.

ANY group? In the studies that I've seen, statins have decreased CV
mortality by 40% or more and all-cause mortality by around one-third.

> Unclogging the heart debate: Do cholesterol pills help or harm?
>
[quoted text clipped - 135 lines]
> Paul Taylor is a Globe and Mail assistant national editor, responsible
> for health and science coverage.
Al. Lohse - 26 Jan 2004 23:22 GMT
> "Badant" <badant@despammed.com> wrote...
> > > kathy9810@yahoo.com (Kathy) wrote in news:b98653c0.0401250033.1379a550
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> ANY group? In the studies that I've seen, statins have decreased CV
> mortality by 40% or more and all-cause mortality by around one-third.

Please, JG, direct us to such studies. Simply
post some URL's.

Thanks,

A.L.
JG - 27 Jan 2004 00:09 GMT
> > "Badant" <badant@despammed.com> wrote...
> > > > kathy9810@yahoo.com (Kathy) wrote :
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Please, JG, direct us to such studies. Simply
> post some URL's.

Here are just a few cites; the abstracts are available on Medline.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/
Note this is not to say that statins are effective in ALL populations (their
efficacy in primary prevention is questionable); but the previous poster's
assertion that they were of little or no benefit in ANY group is pretty
clearly false.

Pedersen TR. Coronary artery disease: the Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival
Study experience. Am J Cardiol. 82(10B):53T-56, 1998.

Downs JR, Clearfield M, Weis S, et al. Primary prevention of acute coronary
events with lovastatin in men and women with average cholesterol levels:
results of AFCAPS/TexCAPS. Air Force/Texas Coronary Atherosclerosis
Prevention Study. JAMA. 279(20):1615-1622, 1998.

Hebert PR, Gaziano JM, Chan KS, Hennekens CH. Cholesterol lowering with
statin drugs, risk of stroke, and total mortality. An overview of randomized
trials. JAMA. 278(4):313-321, 1997.

Vrecer M, Turk S, Drinovec J, Mrhar A. Use of statins in primary and
secondary prevention of coronary heart disease and ischemic stroke.
Meta-analysis of randomized trials. Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2003 Dec;
41(12): 567-77.
Al. Lohse - 27 Jan 2004 20:34 GMT
> > > "Badant" <badant@despammed.com> wrote...
> > > > > kathy9810@yahoo.com (Kathy) wrote :
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> > Please, JG, direct us to such studies. Simply
> > post some URL's.

Thank you very much on your reply. Allow me
to clarify, to illuminate.

> Here are just a few cites; the abstracts are available on Medline.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Pedersen TR. Coronary artery disease: the Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival
> Study experience. Am J Cardiol. 82(10B):53T-56, 1998.

4S is anomalous in the benefits it
discovered. The authors of the original study
told us the sponsor had an insider in on the
trial. The authors did not tell us the
insider had no access to the raw data.

> Downs JR, Clearfield M, Weis S, et al. Primary prevention of acute coronary
> events with lovastatin in men and women with average cholesterol levels:
> results of AFCAPS/TexCAPS. Air Force/Texas Coronary Atherosclerosis
> Prevention Study. JAMA. 279(20):1615-1622, 1998.

AFCAPS, though statistically insignificant,
showed slightly greater mortality in the
treated group than in the untreated group.
Not something I would count amongst the
successes, certainly no 33% on all cause
mortality.

> Hebert PR, Gaziano JM, Chan KS, Hennekens CH. Cholesterol lowering with
> statin drugs, risk of stroke, and total mortality. An overview of randomized
> trials. JAMA. 278(4):313-321, 1997.

AN "overview" can only be considered to be
valid if ALL the information from ALL the
trials is available. We have learned recently
that sponsors can close trials that are not
showing favourable results without publishing
those results. You have to agree that an
"overview" of *selected* trials lacks
generality.

> Vrecer M, Turk S, Drinovec J, Mrhar A. Use of statins in primary and
> secondary prevention of coronary heart disease and ischemic stroke.
> Meta-analysis of randomized trials. Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2003 Dec;
> 41(12): 567-77.

"Meta-analysis," like "overview," is only
valid if ALL the information is available,
especially that from abandoned trials. Unless
we are certain all the information is
available to the authors, "meta-analyses" and
"overviews" cannot help but yield overly
optimistic results.

Also, I think most of us would agree, the
most reliable information comes from the
publications of the original studies.
Write-ups based on those studies can be
"ghost" written and can emphasize positives
while ignoring or de-emphasizing negatives.
Ghost written articles are marketing tools.

So, your statement: "In the studies that I've
seen, statins have decreased CV mortality by
40% or more and all-cause mortality by around
one-third." is not entirely correct. It is
quite possible that marketing interests only
wanted you to see reports or write-ups of
those studies.

I think, what is really needed, is to
determine how people fare on those drugs in
the real world. Comparing a population on
those drugs with a similar population not on
the drugs would go a long way to proving
whether the beneficial results of *reported*
clinical trials can be obtained in the public
at large.

Regards,

A.L.
JG - 27 Jan 2004 19:16 GMT
"Al. Lohse" <lohse@cc.umanitoba.ca> wrote...
> > > > "Badant" <badant@despammed.com> wrote...
> > > > > > kathy9810@yahoo.com (Kathy) wrote :
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> trial. The authors did not tell us the
> insider had no access to the raw data.

It's impossible to answer such a allegation--You're essentially implying
falsification of data.  It's possible, but some proof is required.

> > Downs JR, Clearfield M, Weis S, et al. Primary prevention of acute coronary
> > events with lovastatin in men and women with average cholesterol levels:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> successes, certainly no 33% on all cause
> mortality.

But this was in patients without clinically evident atherosclerotic
cardiovascular disease (and normal total cholesterol and LDL); as I said,
the benefit in this group is still debatable. And lovastatin did
*significantly* reduce the incidence of first acute major coronary event (P
<.001), myocardial infarction (P =.002), unstable angina (P = .02), coronary
revascularization procedures (P =.001), coronary events (P =.006), and
cardiovascular events (P = .003).

> > Hebert PR, Gaziano JM, Chan KS, Hennekens CH. Cholesterol lowering with
> > statin drugs, risk of stroke, and total mortality. An overview of randomized
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> "overview" of *selected* trials lacks
> generality.

Again, you seem to be implying that falsification or trimming of data was
involved in some studies.  It's possible, but I'd want proof.

> > Vrecer M, Turk S, Drinovec J, Mrhar A. Use of statins in primary and
> > secondary prevention of coronary heart disease and ischemic stroke.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> while ignoring or de-emphasizing negatives.
> Ghost written articles are marketing tools.

Actually, many of the primary research articles reporting on clinical trials
are written by "ghost writers."  A review article may well be written by a
ghost writer; but I've never seen a meta-analysis so written, and it seems
unlikely because of the nature of such articles.

The question of ghost writers was discussed here recently; I'll repeat what
I posted:

Many articles appearing in the medical journals are indeed written by
professional writers whose name does not appear as an author.  So what?  The
data used for the article are from actual clinical trials conducted by
medical research scientists, usually the ones whose names do appear on the
article.

If those studies are for a new drug application, the protocols have been
approved by the FDA as well as the review boards at the hospital or
university where they are conducted (and paid for by the drug company that
is evaluating the drug).  Or, if it's a review article, it's based on a
review of publications appearing in peer-reviewed journals.  In all cases,
those listed as authors read and approve the article before submission.
They can and usually do make any changes that they wish.  In fact, such
articles usually go through a much more extensive review process than
articles written by researchers themselves.  And I know because I've been
through both processes many times.

Far from being a "deception," this practice just facilitates the
communication of important findings by leaving the writing to a professional
who knows how to present them clearly.

Articles *not* involving ghost writers (i.e., written entirely by academic
researchers) also commonly include authors who have had little to do with
the research or writing of the article.  They are listed as authors because
they are head of the lab or section or even for reasons of internal
politics.

> So, your statement: "In the studies that I've
> seen, statins have decreased CV mortality by
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> clinical trials can be obtained in the public
> at large.

> Regards,
>
> A.L.
1833418809 - 28 Jan 2004 03:23 GMT
> "At the present time, the value of treating hyperlipidemia in
> patients greater than 80 years of age is unknown, and therapy
>  in this age group must be individualized. (c)1999 by CVRR, Inc."
>
> Is this a joke or what?  How can you individualize therapy
> if the value is unknown?

"individualized" refers to the heterogeneity of the condition.
David Rind - 01 Feb 2004 03:00 GMT
> "At the present time, the value of treating hyperlipidemia in
> patients greater than 80 years of age is unknown, and therapy
>  in this age group must be individualized. (c)1999 by CVRR, Inc."
>
> Is this a joke or what?  How can you individualize therapy
> if the value is unknown?

Ignoring that this is from a 1999 article apparently, you could
have individualized at the time by extrapolating from existing
data in younger people, and only treating those who had a number
of cardiac risk factors but were otherwise in good enough health
that they were expected to live five or ten years. The article
is presumably pointing out that treating high cholesterol levels
in someone who is debilitated or has a rapidly fatal illness is
not likely to be of much benefit.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

 
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